In this full-panel conversation, Terry Cook, Olly Tayler, Kate Monk, Tom Stenson and Dr. Liz Box come together to tackle a big question:

If driving standards are poor, what part are we playing in changing them?

The discussion explores whether standards are genuinely declining, why so many drivers believe they’re “above average,” and how a test-focused culture may be setting learners up with a low starting benchmark. The group challenges the idea that passing the driving test equals competence, arguing instead for a long-term growth mindset built on reflection, emotional regulation and responsibility.

Parental influence becomes a major theme. From assessing parents’ driving to using resources that educate whole households, the panel explores how instructors can create ripple effects far beyond the learner in the driver’s seat.

Dr. Liz Box reflects on 20 years in road safety, highlighting progress in behavioural science and Vision Zero thinking, while also acknowledging structural challenges, political turnover, and the unfinished conversation around graduated driver licensing.

This episode blends frontline experience, research insight and practical ideas, all centred on one challenge:

What part are you playing in supporting safer roads?

Welcome to this latest edition of Driving Instructors and Vision Zero.

And today we are joined by the full team.

It's not just me, Terry Cook.

I'm also joined by Ollie Taylor.

Ollie, do you want to take a second to tell people a little bit about you?

Hello, Terry.

Yeah.

Ollie Taylor from the Honest Truth Road Safety campaign.

Former cop, 30 years with policing in policing and about half of that in roads policing.

So I spent a good portion of my career prowling the highways and byways of the west country, dealing with pretty much everything you can think of on the roads from top to bottom and back again.

So, yes, my life has been spent out on the roads.

Excellent.

Well, you and I recorded the, let's call it the reintroductory episode for this, this podcast a few weeks back.

So I do just want to take a minute to thank everyone that listens to that because it did really, really well.

Numbers much better than I expected.

So, yeah, that's a great start.

So we've got you here, Ollie.

We're also joined by the delightful Kate Monk.

Kate, do you want to take a minute to tell everyone who you are?

Yeah.

Hi there.

So I am primarily a driving instructor.

So I'm also like Ollie, out on the road day to day.

I'm also the CEO of my Learner Driver, which is an online resource for parents.

And yeah, I do lots of work with all different age groups, all levels of driving right through from newbies to people who are, you know, a little bit older.

But I've made quite a few mistakes and correcting what they do.

Smashing.

We're also joined by the dog loving Tom Stenson.

Tom, tell us about you.

Thank you, Terry.

My name is Tom Stenson.

I'm a driving instructor and instructor trainer and that's about it really.

What more do you need to know?

Well, we've said dog loving, so we're all right.

Yeah, well, exactly.

You've got the good bits in, so.

And last, but by no means least, we could not run a road safety podcast without the one and only Dr. Liz Box.

Dr.

Box, tell us a little about you.

Hi there, Terry.

Yeah, good to join you all today.

So I'm Liz Box.

I'm a transport researcher and commissioner.

I've been working in the sector now for over 20 years, so a little while, but I mainly focus on road safety related research, intervention design and evaluation and a big focus on young drivers which is particularly relevant to this podcast.

And this is the select core 5 of people that we're going to be attempting to get together every month and drop any podcast feeds on the first every month.

Well, at least that's the plan.

And what we're going to do, we're going to look at news highlights that may have gone on, but we're also going to all come in with a little topic that we want to discuss.

So let's run through some of these topics because I think a few of these overlap a little bit.

So we'll run through them first and then we'll start talking about them.

So, Ollie, what was a topic that you wanted to talk about today?

Well, Terry, I'm quite keen to talk about standards of driving.

Now, I'm not talking about standards of driving amongst young people, although they are within that driving community, but actually the general standard of driving, having spent so many years out on the roads in big marked and unmarked cars and since retiring have spent a lot of time driving around the country to various meetings, presentations and such like, is I've just noticed that the general standard of driving in this country is poor.

And actually, what is it, what is it that we can do as a collective individuals and as a collective, what is it we can do to try and reverse that trend, to try and bring those standards back up?

Because when the standards come up, road safety is going to increase and collisions are going to reduce.

It's not rocket science.

And to be able to drive legally, at least, you need to pass a driving test.

So on that note, Tom, what was the topic that you wanted to talk about today?

I wanted to talk about sort of us as an industry, as driving instructors, but also members of the public, because we always seem to be majority of people seem to be focused on the test and seems to be the end result is I need to do this to pass my test.

Instead of what Ollie is talking about is this growth mindset of actually I'm going to continue my driving career and I'm always going to be improving.

And the more I kind of look into this, I think we're limiting learners and we're limiting driving instructors by focusing on that test because with no disrespect to, to get your CAT B license, all you have to do is drive around for 30 minutes and don't nearly hit anything and they give you a license.

So we should be aiming for that higher standard instead of focusing on just

passing that test and passing that test.

There's a very a culture behind how we take a driving test.

And also you need driving instructors or a lot of people need driving instructors to pass a test.

Which brings us on to the Next point.

So, Kate Monk, what was your topic you want to talk about?

So I'm going to go with the influence that we have within our communities.

I.

You know, those conversations you have in the shops or on the bus, I mean, we're very friendly in Devon, so we get more of it, but what people actually think of us and how we can use that to help create the change that we're all talking about here.

But I think those three topics overlap quite nicely.

When we look at what Tom said about the idea of very test focused, I think that it's that test focus that breeds that initial poor standard of driving.

Now, I know Ollie, who spoke previously and said that, like, the standard of driving actually gets worse as you get older sometimes, but I don't think it gets off to the best start.

And I think that the way the public perceives instructors because of the test focus, I think can be really negative.

You know, coming back to what you were saying.

But also the idea of the instructors that aren't test focused are often perceived negatively by the public as well, because we looked at as if ripping your kids off because all they want to do is pass a test.

So I do think all those things kind of overlap.

So I'm going to do something I don't normally do when I've got multiple guests on.

I'm going to say, who wants to talk about that first?

You can kick off with.

Sorry, Kaz, do you want me to kick off with standards?

And then we pick it up and take it from there.

Go for it.

So I'd like to start with an.

With an analogy.

Okay.

It's an analogy I've used before.

And I'm a bit of a musician, Always have been, always loved listening to music, always loved.

I've played a number of musical instruments over my lifetime, most notably the cello.

Um, I learned to play starts.

I learned to play the cello when I was about nine years old.

And the only way I knew it was only going to get any better at playing the cello was by practicing.

Whether that's half an hour a day, 10 minutes a day, an hour a day, it doesn't really matter.

So at 17, when you pass your driving test and you start to drive your car and you're going to practice that driving, much like you're going to practice a musical instrument much higher, and you're going to practice that driving for.

For half an hour a day, or maybe some days an hour.

Some days it could be two or three hours.

Some days it might even be 10 minutes.

But you're likely to practice that skill on a daily basis.

So therefore, surely by the time you get to 40, 45, 50, and you've been practicing almost daily in the case of the cello, you'd be a pretty good virtuoso cellist.

You would be.

You would be a very, very fine cellist.

How come it isn't the same with driving?

And the more that people drive, the worse they tend to get.

Okay, now, I know it's slightly controversial because there are some great drivers out there, but there's also a huge amount of poor drivers out there.

And I can say that from a position of, a position of authority, both as having been out and patrolled the highways and byways of the west country for many, many years, but also out driving about every day and just looking, just, just looking around us at what we see and the driving standards we see around us.

And any instructor listening to this, anybody out in the rollings regular listening to this, is going to probably be sick of them nodding their head and going, yeah, I understand what you mean.

You see it every day.

And I think that's because people become complacent.

Once you get in a little style box, nothing bad's going to happen to you because bad things only happen to other people.

Whereas I can very much say that bad things happen to very ordinary people when they very least expect it.

And 90 plus 95% plus percent of the time, that's down to the action or inaction of somebody else on the road.

Okay?

Either themselves or somebody else on the road.

So for me, this whole thing around standards is we need to think about how can we bring the general standard of driving up in this country.

People are practicing it plenty.

They're practicing it every day, but they're not getting any better.

They're getting worse at it.

So actually, why they're getting worse at it and what can be done to reverse that trend.

And that I do believe, I genuinely believe that driving instructors got a part to play in that.

Everybody's got a part to play.

Don't get me wrong.

Everyone has a part to play in that process.

Every single person out in a vehicle of any description.

2 wheels, 4 wheels, 8 wheels, 12 wheels.

Doesn't matter how big or small that vehicle is.

They've got a part to play in making the road safer for everybody.

But actually, do instructors have an additional role in that process in bringing on the next generation of drivers and encouraging that mindset of the next generation of drivers to practice, to become better at what you're doing?

Not to become worse.

Over to you.

Tom's furiously nodding throughout that.

I can see Tom nodding away there.

So, Lady Tom.

Go on, Liz.

You've, you've, you've got your hand up.

I'll let you go first.

Well, it just, it was interesting to hear you talk about that, Ollie, because it's just something I think we come back to again and again is whenever you do surveys on this with members of the public, everybody thinks they're an above average driver.

And obviously we can't all be above average drivers.

Very few people would say, oh, I think I'm average.

Hardly anybody thinks they're below average.

So I think it's a really interesting point and as you say, it goes counter to what we see in other areas where generally you do more, you get better.

And I just wonder whether, and it goes to the point you were saying as well, that they don't really get that feedback or experience that actually they aren't an above average driver.

They go about their daily business, they make that journey, it's successful.

I mean, what their determination of success looks like might be very different to what any of us or other people might think and they get that confirmation bias that they're a good driver and that's it.

And as you say, it kind of then catches people unaware when they've done these bad habits which they've got away with for a long time and then suddenly they do catch them out eventually.

So I just think it's partly feedback and also that maybe we're all just terrible at self reflection as well and maybe that's what we need to encourage people to do a bit more.

Look at that.

What I'd love, I love, I absolutely love a really nice academic answer.

I love it.

It's really, you know, I, Liz, you know me well now to know that I'm not, I'm not an academic, you know, I leave that academic stuff to, to, to, to the, the, the huge brains of people like yourself.

I'm very much, you know, being out there and seeing it, you know, day in and day out on the roads and you know, and thinking about comparing what I see to the way that, for example, and Terry and I have had this conversation the way that, that I plan my driving.

So I, you know, and I don't.

Yes, of course, I've had the benefit of 900 rounds of additional driver training and I got reassessed every three years.

So I had a significant reassessment every three years to make sure that my driving standard was still up to up to holding an advanced driving license and advanced motorcycle license, an advanced pursuit license, to be able to hold these, these skills and abilities, to be able to go out on the road in high performance vehicles and drive and you know, in, in high performance situations.

And yes, not everybody's going to have that benefit, but it doesn't matter because anybody can reflect and what you say, Liz, it's really interesting.

It's about reflecting on driving.

Anybody can do that.

Anybody can drive along and think, could I have done that better?

Could I have seen that earlier?

You know, and it's this whole.

I was talking to Terry earlier.

We look, but do we see.

And I know Tom knows I've got a presentation I'll give you next week all about that very topic.

We look, but do we actually see what's going on and do we use the things we see around us to help us plan that drive people?

Don't people just focus on getting from A to B and if they can get from A to B without getting involved in collision, well, that's a win in there.

But, but actually that doesn't mean to say that that standard of driving, that style of driving is state and that's the example to us all.

It's just they get from A to B without incident, which is.

Yeah, okay, fair enough.

Sorry.

I shall climb off my soapbox temporarily.

Tom.

I don't want to hijack this, what you've said there, Ollie, but it does link to kind of my topic.

And I do wonder whether I still hear this comment from people where learners turn up and say, oh, my dad's told me that, you know, you learn to drive after you pass your test.

And I think what we need to try and do as instructors, we are the ones that can change this perception.

We are the ones that can encourage these learners to self reflect from, you know, before we've even got them in the car to every single time they've got in the car, which if we're not doing as instructors, they're not then going to go past that driving test and think, you know what I need to go and improve now what can I go and do?

I've reached one milestone, but I still need to have this growth mindset that we're all on this learning path.

And I think we as instructors, when we focus on the driving test, we give learners this kind of shaded look of once you pass that, that's it, you're done.

But the average person learns to drive 40 hours and then they go and drive for the next 40 years.

My maths is terrible, but that's like.01% of their driving career.

But yet that's what they seem to focus on.

So from what you said there, Ollie, I. I would.

I wholeheartedly believe that we as driving instructors, if we can change what we do with learners in the car, we are going to see better driving standards, because that natural progression will happen.

I don't think it will happen a hundred percent of the time, although I'd love it to.

But even if it was 1%, isn't that.

Isn't that better than zero?

Way better than zero.

And look, I think the thing here as well, you alluded to this before, Tom, like that driving test.

You only have to be a decent driver to pass your driving test.

Like you said, drive around 30, 35 minutes, don't crash into anyone, do anything illegal, and you pass.

That's it.

And there are tests that go out at 7am on a Saturday.

Well, I don't mean to be rude to anyone, but if you can't pass a driving test at 7am on a Saturday, then you really shouldn't be driving.

So the starting point is really low.

And I think that's the big thing.

That starting point is really low.

So what you alluded to before, Ollie, about how driving gets worse, well, the starting point is six or seven out of ten.

You know, and you mentioned before about the cello example.

I think the difference there is that when, when you do your cello, you're practicing to get better.

People don't practice to get better.

And going back to what you said, Tom, they're not practicing to get better when they drive once they pass, because I've passed now I don't need to do anything.

And we need to change that mindset.

And, well, you'll like this as a segue.

So changing that mindset is all about the influence that we can have as driving instructors.

So, Kate.

Yeah, I mean, so I've spent a lot of time working on this influence with parents over the last couple of years and looking at the general population and how they're driving, as we are all pointing out, and using our children and our new drivers to influence that change.

And so in my car, within my family, I have tasked my children on the back seat to do the nino game, which I haven't introduced to anyone yet.

But essentially, if I go over the speed limit, so I teach them how to spot what the speed limit is.

If I go over the speed limit, I get sirens coming out of the back of the car.

They're watching my speedo.

So obviously I don't speed.

They get really bored every now and then I will have to just go over one just so they can play the game.

But if we could teach all children in school that how to read a road sign for the, the speed limit, that they can have lots of fun telling their parents off what, what the parents going to take from that.

So, yeah, I'm very much for using our young people to challenge the current way that people think.

And if we can teach them from a younger age right through to the, you know, learning to drive.

And it's not just parents as partners as well as we all know it can be any, any age group if we can get the learners that are in our driving seat to know and understand what's right and wrong, that they can speak up.

And I think speaking up is a big thing that we're talking about in the industry in general.

If you're not comfortable with someone's driving and for whatever it be, whether it be speeding or showing off, then speak up.

What do we encourage people to speak up?

Like directors teaching them in car how to, you know, modeling those conversations on how might you suggest to this person that they're going a bit too fast without it being embarrassing or uncomfortable.

But as instructors, as parents, they should be modeling this as well as teachers in school, if we can give people tools to have that confidence to speak up.

So, yeah, as an instructor, we can absolutely do that.

I think that's a really interesting point, Kate.

And I'm just thinking now that my daughter's old enough to be in the front seat passenger with me, sometimes she points out things to me and I always make a choice in my head.

Well, one, she's often pointed out something useful, but two, to say thank you for letting me know that's really important.

Bear that in mind because that's what I want her to be able to do in future when she's in cars with other people and feel like she's going to get a positive response back.

So I think that's exactly what you said.

It's modeling it, isn't it?

And as drivers making sure you're open to that and, you know, nobody's infallible.

There's always things that we can improve.

And yeah, as you say, doing that as a driving instructor is vitally important because that sort of shows potentially in a way that these students might never have seen before in their own family.

So kind of, yeah, it's a really important place for it to start.

Yeah, definitely.

Ollie, if we're doing that with the younger generation, with people that aren't driving yet potentially, what else can we do with the people that are driving to influence that behavior?

So the people that are driving now that have got that decent or poor standard, how can we have a better influence and impact on them?

That is the million dollar question, Terry, because we've got out there now, we've got what I would, what I would call the lost generation.

There's a lost generation of drivers out there who have been, you know, passed their test at 17, 18 years old and as we well know, they won't have to be retested or unless they fall foul of the law and end up having to go on a diversion from prosecution course, in which case they, then they, they do get some re chipping and inputting around that.

But that's only very small minority really of the overall driver population in this country.

So, you know, it's, how do you get to that huge, huge population of drivers?

Now one way is through, is through industry.

So there are a lot of people out there who drive for work, an awful lot of people.

And it's about getting, getting through to them through business.

So looking at actually those that are driving for work as well as driving socially is how do you, how do you look to use that workplace as a point of influence?

Now a classic example is that over the last, during last year I undertook, I don't know, 160, 170 driving assessments for HM Coast Guard volunteers.

And they were only an hour each.

So it's an hour with Coast Guard volunteer, take them out, do a little bit of sort of theory and take them out and do a bit of an observed assessed ride with them.

And of all the ones I did, without exception, even the real old dyed in the wool ones, and I had everything from a close guard volunteer who passed their driving test three months earlier to one who'd had their driving license for 45, 50 years and everything in between.

So I had a real mixed bag of drivers.

Now they all drive for the Coast Guard, but they also all drive their own vehicles day to day to the shops, to friends, to whatever it might be.

And every single one of them, without exception, when I, when we completed it, they said that was really useful.

I'm really glad I did that.

Really glad I did that.

And I again, I wasn't going in there to, you know, criticize and say, right, your driving is rubbish.

I was going to say, okay, there are some things you pick up some bad habits along the way.

Let's have a look at those and how we can think about what those bad habits may result in, how those bad habits can negatively affect the outcome of a journey and getting them to think about.

You know, the biggest thing for me is observation.

Huge thing for me about driving is observation.

It's lashed of observation on a lot of people's part is they don't see things.

Well, they do see things, but they don't link those to how it'll help them plan on a drive.

They don't link to them to the obvious thing that can happen.

You know, classic example.

Tom knows about this because I work with Tom and his team on Road Safety Week.

Something as stupid as dustbins.

You're driving around and you see the dustbins are out on the, on the curbside.

That straight away tells me it's been day.

That means there's a bin lorry somewhere.

Well, I need to think about that because I'm going to come around a corner in a minute, it'll turn into a junction, I'm going to find a bin lorry sat in front of me.

And those bin operatives, recycling specialists, not allowed to call them bin men anymore because that's a bit gender specific.

So there's specialist recycling specialists.

They're likely to be wandering around the bins, throwing bins around, all sorts of bits and pieces.

So actually that now is in my planning.

I'm ready for that.

It's not going to be a surprise for me.

I'm ready for it because I've seen the bins out.

I know I've linked that to the binman, the bin Laurigan out there somewhere.

But more than that, take it a step further.

Well, the weather we've had so far this year has been appalling.

Storm after storm after storm.

If it's bin day and the bins are empty, I can very well come around a corner and find a bin in the middle of the road.

Well, actually, now I'm planning for that.

I'm ready for it.

It's not going to be a surprise.

I'll come around the corner, I'm going to climb to a bid and punt it into somebody else's car.

Because I've thought about it.

So this whole, this whole thing, this current generation is actually encouraging business and industry to think about what are they doing, what are they doing within their industries around road safety, education and assessments of drivers, things like that.

Because actually you can start to get into some of these driving communities, you can start to influence future driving behavior.

But you need to get into the Industry, you just can't go around, you know, the high street, go to, you know, your local supermarket and say, right.

You know, pick out, you know, somebody coming out of the shopping for a trolling full of shopping and say, right, take out a house.

Driving a session, let's see how you get on.

It's got to be far more structured than that.

And like I say, hm, Coast Guard last year was a really good example of that.

And all of those volunteers that said that was so worth doing.

So worth doing.

I've learned a huge amount in an hour.

It doesn't take long.

Caves, capes.

Look at that cape with a handle.

Yeah.

So I do a lot of work with people who've already been caught making a mistake.

It's all gone wrong and they've crashed.

And I can pretty much guarantee to get a change of behavior within 5 to 10 minutes.

If we, if they've got children particularly, or teenage children, if we simply say, how do you want your child to drive or your teenagers to drive because you are doing this thing, or you've been caught using your phone, what can you expect your young person to do?

Is that what you want them to do?

And again, given that little nudge into modeling that safer behavior and whether there's a way of, through things like the think campaign of getting some advertising out on tv.

I mean, I don't have that kind of budget, but some people will be able to to aimed at the, the parents.

I mean there's, there's so many of us in the world.

We've got aging right from, you know, 21, if that's still an adult, right down to newborn.

So very much aiming at getting people thinking about how they want the kids to drive because they are going to copy whatever we do in the car.

Whatever we show them is normal, will be their normal.

The other thing I find that the general population, they, they don't mean to be rubbish at driving.

Like, they don't mean to be bad.

And when you tell them that they're bad, they really quickly want to improve.

Not everybody, but the majority, once they realize they're not doing it right, they want to change.

And one of the things I come across quite regularly is what I have called get out of trouble quick syndrome.

It's that little bit of panic, like, oh, this is really uncomfortable, as in someone's tailgating me.

I'm going to accelerate away from this or that's a really narrow space.

I don't like it.

I want to get out of here and I'm going to accelerate away from danger.

And so where we're seeing aggressive driving and where we might perceive it as an aggressive act is actually people who are terrified behind the wheel who just don't want to be there, and they are getting out of trouble as quick as they can.

And I think raising awareness around that as well, in a.

How do you access the general public?

I mean, TVs, great YouTube, TikTok, I hate to say it, but how we point that.

Point out that these behaviors aren't always intentional.

It is people just panicking.

And if we can help manage the panic, we will see changes.

The examples you gave there with like TikTok and Facebook and stuff, I think is a great example because we can't go out and pay for adverts on telly and stuff like that.

But I don't think that enough people.

Maybe I'm talking more about instructors here.

I'm not sure, but I don't think that enough people, enough instructors talk about this stuff.

I think there's that big of a demand for the driving test content, going back to what you said, Tom, and we'll come back to that shortly, that I think instructors are reluctant to talk about the positive.

And I don't know if this is what you want to speak about, Liz, but I'm going to ask you a question on this, and maybe you can tie it in, which is one of the things that I see a lot is that idea of that social pressure, you know, that idea that when you've got a driving instructor next to you, for example, you can feel a lot more comfortable doing 20 in a 20 zone, you know, and then you pass your test, you do 20, 20 zone, and people are overtaking you or tailgating you, and you get that.

That social pressure there.

And how many people do we see that have a sticker on the back of the car that says they've got a black box?

That's why I'm driving at this speed, you know.

Well, no, that's.

That's not why you should be driving at that speed.

So I do want to ask you that around.

Is that social pressure a thing?

You know, is that as big of a deal as I think it is?

Oh, yeah, I think it is, Terry, 100%.

And just before going on to that, just to come on to what Kate was talking about there, I think that's a really interesting example of, you know, we know that we.

When we get ourselves into situations, we can fight, we can flight and we can freeze.

And that's just an example of what's happening on the road.

And I think being able to provide people coping mechanisms of actually how you can get yourself out of that panic situation and do something that's more productive and safer.

I think it's a really good point.

And you know, when we're talking about how do we get the message out there, we certainly know from the behavioural science that or the literature around behavioural science is that we all need knowledge about what we should be doing.

But we can't expect that just letting people know about things is going to change their behaviours.

But ultimately, I think you're completely right.

We just don't have enough stuff out there at the moment to even just make it a background noise that people see often about.

Okay, well, this seems to be the norm.

We just don't have enough of that because there's such diffuse channels now, isn't there?

So there's different ways to get to people.

So, yeah, we just need massive action to kind of make things seem the norm so that then we can build on that.

So I think that's really important.

And Terry, your point around social pressure?

At the RAC foundation last year we got Ipsos Murray to do a study for us with young people, 17 to 19 year olds, and it was all about graduated driver licensing.

But before we kind of got into that detail, we asked them about their experiences of driving and what it was like, what they liked, what they didn't.

And something that came through quite strongly was that once I've passed my test, I feel that social pressure of the traffic around me, you know, even if they want to do the right thing, and lots of them did say they wanted to do the right thing, they felt pressured to speed because somebody was right up their boot.

So it, it's upsetting, isn't it, sometimes that we're kind of letting our new drivers go out into a world where we're not supporting them to do the right thing.

And actually they probably are the ones that are much more likely to want to do that.

And yeah, it's challenging.

So how do we, again, I suppose in instruction, help them fight against that?

Because it's hard.

We all want to be able to fit in with whatever people are doing.

Once you're out on the road, you've just passed your test, you want to prove that you deserve to be there and therefore fitting in like everybody else is a natural thing to want to do.

So, yeah, I think I've just highlighted lots of different problems rather than answers.

But they're, you know, they're Based in what we understand and sort of people's behavior, for sure.

Tom, do you have answers?

I have one answer, and that is if driving instructors were educated better, then I think we are in the prime position to not only deal with learners, but to deal with parents as well.

And especially if we've got this coaching methodology that we're using.

Instead of just telling somebody you've done something wrong, we get that opportunity to converse with them, to talk about the pros and cons, to talk about every aspect of it, to allow them to start to think a little bit more for themselves.

But the, you know, the.

The test thing got a learner at the moment, and she's got her test on Tuesday, and in the nicest way possible.

I don't want her to pass because she's such a great learner, but I do want her to pass.

I want her to go and, you know, get what she wants to do.

But she's been learning for quite a few years.

She's had two failed driving tests.

She's had other instructors, and they've always been focused on, this is what you need to do to pass your test.

So she came to me a few months ago.

We did an assessment drive, and her anxiety went from 0 to 100 because she crossed her arms and suddenly panicked and went, oh, my God, I would have failed my test because I crossed my arms.

So the things that I've had to do with her is not get her to control the car, because she can do that really well.

It's to control those emotions that she gets when there's someone behind us.

And everything that we've had to work on over these several months has always been about her getting this emotional response and then having strategies in place to be able to deal with it.

And the change that she's got now, for me, I'm obviously biased because I'm training her, but the change that I can see now is completely different.

And we had a session this week, um, and she finally said to me one thing which just made me a really proud driving instructor.

And that was all the other lessons I had, Tom, because we focused on the test, I got so nervous.

But what I realize now is if I drive safely, what.

What more can I ask for?

That's what I want from other drivers.

I want them to be safe.

Even if they're not good, I want them to be safe.

And if I go and drive safely on my test, I'll pass.

And if I go and drive safely after my test, I'm doing a good job and for me I just thought that was such a great thing for a 20 something year old person to go from being so focused on what she needs to do to pass a test to now thinking this is the type of driver I want to be.

If, and I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, if she'd have passed her test with one of the other instructors, she wouldn't have got to that point.

And that's what frustrates me because I think we have such a great opportunity to educate these people, these novice drivers who will then maybe go and educate their parents who will then go and educate others on the road and we get this domino effect of better drivers coming through.

I know it's not that easy, but I'd like to think it was that simple.

No, I'm going to say a couple of things, a couple of different things there because there will be instructors.

Listen to this Tom, that listens to the example you just said.

And they'll, I can hear them in my head now saying, well my learners won't do that, you know, and I think that this.

Oh, you're like this, Ollie.

I've said this to you before.

It's where I get to use Terry's crude roadimentary road safety scale again.

It's like we get someone that, that comes to us that has a 7 out of 10 attitude towards driving safely, we can take them to a nine.

If we get someone that comes to us with a 2 out of 10 attitudes to road safety, we can't take them to a nine, it's almost impossible.

But what we can do is budge them along to a 5 maybe or 4, 5, 6 around that number so we can make them safer.

And I think that a lot of instructors and maybe a lot of parents and people miss this, that just because you can't get someone all the way to where you want them to be doesn't mean you can't impact that attitude.

So, you know, I think that whilst I love that story, I don't want people thinking that just because you can't do it with every driver doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

But the other thing I want to mention here is just, just looking at this, this call now.

You know, one of the things that KQ asked about Kate was how we can influence this, you know, and then I think, well, we've got Dr. Boxer, you've obviously created the dry fit system which I send.

You know, I should actually caveat this that I take a little break from teaching.

I'M just back now.

So I am now in the process of.

Whenever I get a learner, I always send them those videos for drive fee.

And I, in the past, I have had people that have come back to me.

Again, not all learners, but I've had people have come back to me and said, this was really good.

It made me think about this.

I've had parents have come back to me and said, I didn't know this, you know, and that's great.

During lessons, we've got the honest truth.

And I think one of the biggest things I didn't expect when I started using all this truth is, was a number of parents that would get in touch with me and they've watched the video through the email they get afterwards or the, the, the, the kids gone home and told the parents about it and they've come back and said this.

So we're not only having an impact on the learner, but we're having an impact on the parent.

The thing that I haven't started using that since I've come back is my learner driver, which is case.

But I know the impact that that's having, which is that that same principle of it's not just gonna be the learner that learns from that, it's gonna be the parent that takes from that as well.

So I think that when we look at, again, speaking specifically, driving instructors here, I suppose that we've got these amazing resources that we can bring in that aren't ridiculously expensive.

They're a really good price and they're really good resources.

And that's not plugging you guys, because you're here.

There's other stuff that's available, but I just think that anyone looking for a way in, they've got it there, or anyone listening to this isn't instructor that wants to, you know, look at resources they can use, they've got it there.

So, yeah, sorry, a bit of a rant there, but I'll, I'll let you step in, Liz.

Yeah, well, thanks, Terry.

And it's great to hear that you're getting that feedback from all the resources and the dry fit one as well.

And I think in what, in hearing you say that, I think what I was reflecting on is the fact that we know it's so incredibly hard to get messages to parents.

I mean, Kate, you know this with all the work that you're doing in that field, because dvsa, their engagement is with the learner, they have a sort of tangential relationship with the parent.

When you go into schools And I've done a lot of research work in schools and have tried to get those videos, for instance, as part of the trial work, sent out to parents.

Because parents are bombarded with a huge amount of information about every subject under the sun.

Schools understandably are going, we can't send them everything.

This is not going to be the thing that we send them.

And so you could.

I just keep on coming back.

So you, as driving instructors, are the best route.

You have that direct relationship with the parents to be able to get that information through you about all of the potential gatekeepers.

And my daughter's school, actually, they have a parental resource that they've just shared.

Guess what?

There was hardly, I think there's one article about driving safety, but it's nothing that any of us would necessarily write in that article.

But there's every other, you know, about mental health and wellbeing, all the other important subjects.

But we just miss getting the parental stuff to parents.

So as much as we can use the channels that you guys have, I think the better.

Sorry, can I add something in there that you.

That links to what you were saying?

Liz and Terry, we, through bright coaching, we encourage our cohort to use what we call a learning agreement.

Some people call it contracting.

So this is, this is not terms, conditions, but this is what we send learners to say.

This is how the learning process is going to happen when you come with us.

And in there, there are normally some sections that say, we want you to be open and honest about your feelings and your emotions and we want you to be understanding that.

We want you to turn up to lessons ready to be coached and to have this coaching conversation.

Now, Gary Thomas, who you're probably all well aware of, he uses this to be more selective with his learners.

So when he sends it out to learners and parents, parents might contact him and say, what's all this gibberish?

You know, I don't want them sat on the side of the road talking about stuff.

I just want them to drive.

So Gary can then say, perhaps I'm not the right driving instructor for you.

So there's so many things out there that we can do as driving instructors, like, Kate, I love the fact that I get to go and chat to a parent and explain to them what modern driver training should look like compared to what they did 20, 30 years ago, where you just do a couple of hours with your mate's friend down the road and you pass.

And again, I think their, their mentality is, this is what I did to pass my test.

And because they haven't kept up with modern understanding.

They still think it's the same now.

So I do think we've got so many great resources out there that driving instructors can use that's going to help them put them at the forefront of educating these novice drivers.

Gary is a thought out of left field.

I know there are some instructors out here that do this because I've spoken to them about it.

It's not widespread, as far as I know.

Is this parental engagement?

This is something that I've always thought about for years and years and years is this little golden goose of how to engage with parents of young drivers.

Kate is rewriting the Holy Grail with regards to that.

Without a doubt.

Kate is definitely rewriting the Holy Grail, this whole idea of engagement with parents.

But actually I love the idea.

And had either of my boys, driving instructors, when they were learning to drive, offered the opportunity, I would have probably taken it up.

Despite my background, I would have probably taken it up.

Now, why doesn't, why don't instructor.

Why don't all instructors offer a parent of a new driver the opportunity to go out and have a half hour assessment with their son or daughter sat in the back listening to actually say, right, you're, I'm going to teach your son or daughter how to drive.

Okay, first things first, we're gonna, they're gonna sit in the back, you're gonna be driving and we're gonna go out and do a half hour, 40 minute, half a half hour assessment, a driver of your driving with them watching and listening as to what I genuinely think it'll be, it'll be warts and all good, bad and different.

This is gonna be done in the spirit which intended.

But it's a learning opportunity because what you've then got is you've then got the parent, the guardian, whoever it might be.

You may not have the guardian going, I thought I was an above average driver.

Clearly I'm not.

Clearly I have quite a bit to learn.

Naturally, if my son or daughter is learning, I need to be that example.

Now, yes, there's a time, there's, there's, there's all sorts of things around that, all sorts of things around that.

However, as a driving instructor, to give up half an hour of time.

So that first lesson, an hour's lesser than very first lesson.

Individual has saying, right, this person's going to be hour and a half.

I'm going to charge you for an hour.

It's going to be an hour and a half, but I'm going To take mum, dad, whoever, whoever, you know, whoever you want.

I'm going to take them out and we're going to do an assessed drive with them for when I'm going to take them out and give them an assessment for half an hour.

Then we're going to learn that whole process of learning how to drive, but we're going to learn from that start first off.

So as a parent, you're going, there are some things I really need to be thinking about working on while my young person is learning to drive.

That for me seems to be a no brainer.

Okay, now I know there's gonna be loads of listening to this going, no, not perhaps, still no, no, I'm not wasting my time doing that.

No, parents aren't gonna engage with it, but actually are they?

Would a parent go, right, you want your son to learn how to drive, let's have your drive for half an hour to begin with.

Take it from there.

Anyway, there you go.

I'll just lob that one in from the sunshine.

I'll come back because that's basically how I work.

So I take all the parents out that I can for half an hour on the first lesson and we have the learner sat in the back and they watch and learn how we work with a parent to improve the driving.

And it's, it's been brilliant, it's been so rewarding and we're getting a really good improvement all round.

Alongside obviously working on the My Learner Driver course.

We've got grandparents working on the My Learner Driver course too.

But putting that to one side, what stops instructors from doing it?

And obviously I'm doing my best at the moment to try and change a culture as we all are.

And I'm hearing some of the feedback which I'm, I can see Terry and Tom probably smiling and smirking there in that people, instructors are seeing it as a bit of a challenge to their status, to their job, to their business, to the money that they're going to make.

Because all of a sudden we've got this team of parents who are doing a really good job.

They know, they know how to handle the danger, they can supervise better, they're improving their own driving.

And all of a sudden perhaps traditional instructors who are stuck in passing a test, as Tom has pointed out ways are, well, they become less relevant, don't they?

They're not needed.

So why are they going to take part and that?

I, I don't have the answer to that other than if there's enough of us who passionately want to create safer roads and want to get involved and the change is coming.

Like I am going to make sure if it's the last thing I do, that there will be change.

Because my kids, you know, 10 and seven, I've.

I've got seven years before I need to really worry that they're on the road.

It needs to be okay before then that if we can get enough people who do want to participate, it actually makes better business.

Like I'm charging more money than I did before.

I have a waiting list till September.

That's not.

Not going anywhere anytime soon.

People want to engage with that because it keeps their kids safe versus just passing a test.

And if we can get that out there, maybe we will change instructors, but we are going to be fighting.

And I can see Tom clapping.

And this won't be popular with many of the people who listen because it is very different.

But it's the right thing to do.

Why does it, why does it not surprise me in the scientist cape?

That's exactly what I was talking about, is exactly what you do.

That comes as no surprise at all.

I joined, I joined Tom in that round of applause.

And yes to this, it will, it'll turn them off straight away.

But I make no apologies for that.

What you're explaining and what you're doing.

Sorry, Liz, you've got your hand up.

I do apologize.

What you're explaining, what you're, what you're talking about is exactly what should be happening.

And I think by, by introducing that in a much broader.

In a much, you know, right across the board.

I think everything you've alluded to there, Kate, will happen.

Everything you've alluded to.

Now I'll be really interested to hear what.

I know.

Lizard, I was dying to say something in of this, but there just seems to be a real missed opportunity by a huge number of instructors.

Yes, there are those champions out there like yourself, Kate.

And you know, there are others out there who are doing that and it's having a real impact and a real difference.

But actually for me, it's as much about having a difference in the parents driving and how they view their own driving, that maybe I'm not an above average driver, the above average driver I thought I was.

And maybe I need to do something to change that through the help of people like yourselves.

And there's other great instructors out there, of which there are many, I hate to add.

Sorry, Liz.

No, no, that's.

That's fine, Ollie.

I was just sort of listening to the conversation and sort of, you know, not as a practitioner myself.

It's interesting to hear the examples that you're talking about where it's working and where it's not working, because it seems like to me you've kind of got a demand and supply is issue.

So as you say, you might have some parents that are not up for it, you might have some instructors that really aren't keen on sort of taking that approach.

And I think sometimes when that happens very quickly, people go, oh, it's not worth it then, is it?

Because we can't get to everybody, so should we worry doing it at all?

And I think, as you've all said, you know, we need that culture change and you have to start somewhere.

So you start with a coalition of the willing, don't you?

The willing parents, the willing instructors.

And then hopefully that builds a new social norm of what's expected, that it will, it will improve going forward.

But I guess we can't.

When you were talking, Tom, about sort of selecting the parents that you would, not you, but one of your colleagues would teach, it made me think, well, what happens to those students that don't have the supportive parents?

Where's the safety net for that?

And I think that's something we need to think about.

It doesn't mean that we don't do the best or what we think is, you know, the top thing to do, but we do have to think about how do we eventually get that rolled out to everybody somehow?

Because it can't.

Whenever you do something voluntary, not everybody gets it.

That's just always the way.

Kate, I know you're going to have

a idea on this, but yeah, work in progress, I think is what I'll say to that.

My learner driver is an adaptable course and I have a whole separate course written for people who don't have their own.

I say written, it's written in my head.

It's not actually on paper yet, but for people who don't have willing parents or don't have access to anyone who can supervise and you know, in a very brief overview, there is so much you can do on the like upper deck of a double decker bus, reading the road ahead, learning where to look, how to judge, what to look for.

So much you can do in taxis, there's actually a lot of skills as a pedestrian we do crossing the mouths of roundabouts and junctions and going out on your bike that we can put together into a properly guided pack to work alongside an instructor so that we can still support those people.

They won't have as much experience as someone who's going out with parents for private practice, but it can be done.

So, yes, work in progress.

Maybe later in this year I'll get to that one.

We'll see.

I suppose this comes back to my topic again, is the fact that we're talking about all of these resources that driving instructors can have and all of these things that they can begin to do to change people's perceptions of what, what we are as an industry.

But yet there's still a huge amount of companies and driving schools that are out there who predominantly.

Liz, you might not know this or other people listening.

In order to qualify as a, as a driving instructor, you have to pass three tests, a theory test, a driving test, and then an instructional ability test.

And on the instructional ability test, you are marked against 17 competencies.

So what often happens?

I say often there are lots of people out there who don't do this, lots of training companies, but you're trained within those 17 competencies.

And again, that for me is restricting because there's, there isn't anything within those competencies that says what, when are you chatting to learners, parents, when are you chatting to friends, parents to offer them an assessment?

Or when are you.

When are you suggesting that actually maybe we need more of a coaching conversation instead of sitting, driving or, you know, doing whatever.

And so we're limiting people and instructors who are now going off and seeing these, these learners.

And this was one of the reasons I moved into instructor training, because I thought I might teach 50 learners a year.

But if I can teach 25 driving instructors a year, then they're going to go off and they're going to teach these and hopefully it will spread.

And I do think it's changing.

From my perspective, being in the industry for 30, 14 years, I can see there are more people like Kate, who are introducing better ways of teaching learners.

So it is moving in the right direction.

But if we're still focusing these training instructors on, you just need to know these 17 things.

We're not going to get the change that we want unless we start at that point there or before that point, is my opinion anyway, on that, with

the testing as well with part threes for driving instructors.

Our cpd, like the signing up for CPD is so what cpd?

What's that, Kate?

Oh, A, what's cpd?

But B, it's so centered around passing a standards check or a part three that, you know, that's what everybody I say wants.

You can see my inverted commas, but actually there's so much more we could be bringing in as CPD and I'd really like to see that improve in time.

Can I just add something into that?

Sorry, Kat, because I think, you know, this is something that we've had to look at at the ADI NJC and as a training provider myself, if we went back a couple of years ago, if I were to put out a course that said, Part three Standards Check, I could sell out.

If I put a course out that said, this is going to be improving your coaching techniques and then you're going to help your learners be better drivers.

We'd probably only get a few people book on because they're focused on that test.

However, we're really sneaky because we put the title Part three Standards Check, but it has nothing to do with that.

We just get them to be better driving instructors.

Don't tell everyone, Tom.

Ah, people won't watch this.

It's fine.

The other thing I wanted to say was I and you know, I've been in this job for 10 years now and I've been very much, you know, living my life in Devon very happily.

I've got my children working part time up until the last couple of years when I've gone full time watching this problem, watching what everyone's doing, but just sitting around and not doing anything about it.

I was busy living my life, you know, having my kids, I'm a mum, I'm.

I'm not anything particularly special.

I don't come from a posh background or anything like that.

And what is it going to take for things to change?

It's going to take people who are listening to this everyday, instructors, parents.

It's going to take just normal people to just stand up and say, no more that this is enough.

Standards do not rise by accident.

It rises when people who are impressional places, who are in positions of power, positions of influence, parents, and they say, yeah, this isn't good enough anymore, we can do better.

And I think that's really important to take away.

You don't have to be a super duper superhero to achieve this.

You can just be a parent, sat at home and say, that's enough, it's time to change.

I think I spoke a little bit about this when I recorded you, Ollie.

I spoke about on the instructor podcast as well that I almost feel like this is the time I want to issue people a challenge because I think that we are at a point when we can have this cultural shift.

I think that the road safety strategy that's come out, I think Everyone in the gray here would agree it's probably not gone as far as you want it to in some areas, but it's talked about, it is in the public eye, you know, it's out there and is going to be talked about.

So the government is actually putting some of the, not all, but some of the public eyes on road safety.

So this is a perfect opportunity for us to shout louder.

And I think that I'm going to separate driving instructors on the road safety sector for a second.

I think that driving instructors, now, this is a perfect time to look at the road safety sector and see what they have to offer.

However, I'm also keen to stress that's to flip as well.

Now is the perfect time for road safety sector to look at driving instructors and see what instructors have to offer and reach out to those, whether it's a larger schools, individuals, associations or, you know, handsome bearded men, whatever, and say what?

How can we get into this more and help these more?

I think that we really have the opportunity now and I want to touch on one other thing and then we might have to put a pin on this, but I do just want to touch back on some of you, said Tom, which is the.

The Standards check focus apart, free focus.

And I think what I've found over the last five or six years is there is a desire for stuff that isn't around the standard check.

And part three.

I think the problem comes actually the trainers that are selling that, because the more we sell those things, the more that people, the more that the average dual driving, if you like, is going to be gravitated more towards that.

And I think that there are a lot of trainers out there that they have no interest in producing better drivers, producing better instructors.

They're interested in earning as much as possible.

And that's not a criticism of anyone.

If that's what they want to do, that's a fact, and that's fine.

I don't like it, but I think there's a lot of people doing that and I think there's a lot of people scared to label something as not standards check or part three.

And I think, as I said, I think there's more and more people with that desire that aren't just interested in that, but I think that we may need to move on to other topics.

But I don't want to do a big monologue and then say, right, I've said My piece, no more.

So does anyone want to add anything onto this before we move on?

Excellent.

So for everyone listening, people are shaking their heads.

All right, let's move on to you.

Liz, I know you wanted to talk about the last jeepers two decades.

I'll let you take this away.

Yeah, thanks.

Thanks, Terry.

So this has gone from the very practical real world today to kind of just, I guess, having a bit of an opportunity just for me personally really to reflect over the last couple of decades.

And I guess the prompt for this is over the last two decades I've been research director at the RAC Foundation.

My role there comes to an end at the end of March because I'm going to be moving on to working full time from April in my independent consultancy capacity in ECM Research Solutions.

So when you sort of said, what topics do you want to bring?

I suppose I've been in a bit of a reflective mood really, because it has been.

I mean, nobody expects to stay at a job for 20 years, do they?

It's not necessarily what you end up thinking you're going to do straight away, but it has been the most fantastic job and we've had such a great role and influence, I think, in not just road safety, but in the transport policy world that we operate in.

So.

But for today, I just wanted to reflect on obviously what our interests are here and what I was, what we can take, I guess, from the last couple of decades.

And it was just helpful actually for me, kind of going back some of the old figures just to kind of help put this in context.

So I would say first, there's kind of three key things I'd like to say.

So first, I'd say over the last 20 years there's definitely been progress when you look back over it.

So I was looking at the data on the number of KSIs involving at least one 17 to 24 year old driver and that's almost.

So it was around 11,000 and it's now down to around 5,000.

So you know, that's thousands of fewer people killed or seriously injured each year, which is obviously massive progress.

And then I think generally as the sector, I'd say that I think we talk a lot more about behavioral science, we talk a lot more about systems thinking.

And we've had that in the discussion today when you were saying, Tom, if I'm training instructors, they can then train somebody else.

So you're not just immediately thinking about the person that's going to do the thing, but what influences who's going to do what.

And I think that's really important.

And obviously vision zero is the, is the direction that a lot of us are going.

And I would say 20 years ago we didn't have that language, we didn't have that understanding, and I think that's really matured across the whole sector, which is really good.

I would say, however, I think we're still stuck in a few kind of key structural ways.

You know, we know that young drivers are still overrepresented in serious outcomes given their share of the driving population.

So even though we've had that improvement over time, it's not case closed.

We've still got a lot of work to do.

Any guesses?

Five.

Very optimistic, Tom.

So 13, I believe it is.

So basically, transport secretaries typically last a couple of years max.

So every 18 months or two years they change.

And obviously that makes these massive changes that we need to systems really difficult to achieve.

And you know, we've got a great momentum at the moment with the road safety strategy.

But I think the big message from the past is let's get on and deliver some of the things.

As we were saying, it's not perfect, it's not everything we'd want, but if we can get on and to deliver some of the things in there quickly before somebody leaves and for things change again, I think that's going to be really important.

So, yeah, I think we've got this moment of opportunity to do that.

And I think this is probably a bit tangential to our discussion here, but really the biggest change has just been the technology in the vehicles.

And kind of helping vehicles now just help take away all of our workload, essentially, which we know is positive and negative.

So there's been a massive change there.

And I guess there's a question for us all.

Do we think learning to drive, do we think the driving test has been updated enough to reflect the change in vehicles?

That's probably a whole different podcast discussion, I imagine.

But so I think Overall, there's not necessarily the.

I suppose the real question is not whether we all know enough because I think as a sector it's definitely improved over the last 20 years, but I think it's more about can we deliver it consistently, can we do it all collaboratively because we all need to work together to get the most out of it and can we do it at scale?

And I think it's been really interesting that we've been having those sort of more detailed conversations today about how do you do that with parents and young people.

But I think we need to do that on a massive systems level as well.

So.

Yeah, so that's just 20 years condensed into a few minutes, but I think there's a few interesting things there.

I want to ask you, because you said that the, you felt the biggest change come from technology, but if we, if we look at the safe system for a second, do you think that every area of that safe system has improved?

Because for me I get the feeling it has, except for road users.

I feel the other four have improved, but the road users haven't, which could fall on instructors, it could fall in attitude.

You know, I'm not partially in blame, but I'm wondering if you feel like every sector's moved.

Yeah, that's interesting.

I think we would all say that there's been such a big change in vehicle technology.

I mean even just the technology we use in vehicles, in that we have telematics, you know, intelligent speed assistant, we've got much more data analytics.

So I think that has moved massively.

Road design, we know there's much more kind of preventative road design approaches now.

We used to just wait until something happens multiple times on one part of the network, whereas there's a lot more preventative work that go on there.

I think post collision response is an area that we haven't traditionally done a huge amount in over the last 20 years.

But I'm sure many of you know the work of the impact team that are doing absolutely incredible work in terms of bringing the medical field forward and actually how do we extricate people from vehicles?

How do we ensure the best outcomes possible if the worst does happen?

So I think there's some really good developments there.

But as you said, Terry, the safe road use, and it's interesting, I did my PhD in transport psychology and I would always say to people, use the other layers of the system first because I think education and enforcement are about supporting a really good road safety system.

We need to get them right, we need to do them Properly, but on their own, they can't achieve probably as much as you could by changing legislation about something, because that's going to influence more people.

But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep on going at the behavior change.

But it's just the hardest thing to do.

We know you have to keep on drip feeding those messages.

We know they only have a very short shelf life.

We know that you go in and deliver an intervention for an hour and then somebody goes back to their everyday life and they've got their parents, as we've been talking about, and their peers and all the things that really influence them in life.

And I think we just have to be realistic about what we can achieve, but also have high expectations of making sure we get the best stuff in there.

I see Ollie's looking to come in.

No, something slightly different, Liz.

And I think this is an unreal opportunity to go on record and publicly thank you for everything that you have done over the last couple of decades and I know you will continue to do.

We first met many, many years ago.

There's many, many years ago.

And I have to be honest with you, I have always been in awe of your experience and knowledge in the road safety sector, particularly amongst young drivers.

Obviously, I was involved in the original drive pit with you amongst and along with other.

A number of other interventions that you've worked on.

And I just think it's only right and proper that this forum and all those listening to this, this podcast should be immensely grateful for what you personally have bought to road safety over the last two decades.

And I take my hat off to you for it, Liz.

You have been a.

You've been a shining light, you have been a powerhouse in road safety and I know with your new venture, you will continue to be so.

So I think on behalf of everybody, thank you so, so much for everything you've done.

And I've probably just ruined Tay, because Terry probably had that in his hand ready to do, but I was going to get in there before because we've known each other for many years.

Liz.

Yeah.

Oh, Ollie, thank you so much.

That's such a lovely thing to hear and to say and I don't know whether to cry or to blush or to what.

But that's so nice of you to say that.

And, yeah, I suppose I have been looking back at what we've achieved at my time at the foundation and, you know, the biggest message is that all of these happen because multiple people care about things.

Like, I think I've had a very fortunate role at the foundation that we've been able to lead stuff.

We've been able to work out where the gaps are.

I've trained in transport psychology, so I've been able to really look into those subject areas.

But you can only achieve these things with support from colleagues.

And importantly, I was talking about my IT issues earlier, support at home.

You know, nobody ever achieves these things on their own, so I think that's important to say.

And I was reflecting on what are the things I'm kind of proudest about, really, at my time at the Foundation.

I'd say the discussions or the research base we've been able to provide to help inform the discussions about licensing, particularly about young drivers.

And I think that's an important thing to reflect on how as a sector, we've been able to support the media to have a much more positive discussion about this.

In the past, nobody would want to go and do the media and you'd get pilloried.

And many researchers have said this in the past and I think that Forget Me Not Families reuniting group have done a massive, important job in sort of changing the.

They've literally.

We did have a group that met as part of that group called Shifting the Dial, and I think they really have shifted the public discourse on it.

That means that, you know, actually we can now talk about this seriously.

We've got minimum learning periods in the road safety strategy, which is a starting point and an important part.

So I think it's interesting to see how that's changed.

Road safety education has obviously been the focus of my PhD work and it's great to see people talking about resilience education, trauma, informed approaches, strategies, coping mechanisms, coaching.

These are all the things we need.

Not fear and threat appeal to say, wagging your finger, don't do this, because that never changed anybody's behaviour doing that.

So we need to be much more aligned with the evidence and it's great to see those improvements.

And then the work I was doing on collision investigation, I think as well.

It's really good to see that that's in the race safety strategy as well.

And it's not quite in the format we'd hoped, because we'd hoped that that would be like the other investigation Branches.

This can be data orientated, but it's a first, it's a great step, it's in a positive direction.

We can now start to understand really what are these multiple causal factors?

When we pull it all together, it's not individual police forces looking at it, it's something that we can do collectively to see what we can really change.

So, yeah, I think it's those three areas in particular that I kind of feel quite proud about.

But that's so kind of you to say, Wally.

I really appreciate it.

Thank you.

You mentioned the Forget me not families, Liz.

Just.

There will be people listening that don't know who they are.

Just want to take a second to explain.

The Forget me not families.

Yes.

So the Forget me not families group are a group of bereaved parents that have come together who have all lost children or family members, loved ones who in young driver collisions.

So whether that be the drivers themselves, the passengers, or just other roads, people traveling on the roads about their everyday business that were killed or seriously injured in collisions involving young drivers.

And I think when I talk to bereaved family members, I think what comes across so clearly to me is, you know, this wasn't their world before this tragic incident happened to them.

They never thought that this would happen to them, their families.

And we can of course, you know, understand if you don't work in this sector, you wouldn't know.

But I think what they've consistently said is as soon as we find out the evidence that this can save 20 to 30% of the killed and seriously injured collisions on our roads, why on earth are we not doing this to support young people and their futures and their families and, you know, the injustice of the fact that we've been talking about changing licensing for 30, 40 years.

The evidence has been there, it's in so many other countries.

You couldn't have stronger evidence base for it.

But we're still not making the changes.

I can't begin to imagine how that feels, being a brief family member feeling that if that change had happened, your loved one would still be here.

So I think in the public discourse and in the media, I think their choice have been so important to kind of illustrate that, you know, you don't have to be a boy racer to be involved in a serious injury collision.

You can just be a young, inexperienced driver that makes a mistake.

And we shouldn't be designing a system that has such severe implications for simply making a mistake.

It's not acceptable.

And, you know, we need to change that.

So I think if you look them up online.

Forget me not Families Uniting.

You'll be able to see all of the stories and the backgrounds.

I would say, particularly Sharon Huddleston and Dr. Ian Greenwood have been particular key figures in that campaign and I know they will be continuing to do their work in this field regardless of what's kind of happening with the road safety strategy.

And, you know, I wish them all the best.

I think they are doing an incredible job.

I was going to say, I think it's a lot to do with our culture as well, Liz, isn't it?

In that we as parents, we don't think it's going to happen to our children.

Also, as we've said earlier in this conversation that they're busy parents, lives are full of things and anything that's kind of a future problem just gets filed under a future problem.

Irrelevant.

We'll come to that when they get to that age and we put so much effort into our children and I don't think, well, I definitely didn't have a clue before I had children how much effort goes into having children.

And it's now that, you know, you sit back and we've, we've kept them alive and he's 10 and she's 7 and how much, how much time, how much love, how much energy that goes into that.

We're, we're only halfway there.

We've still got to get them to the, when they're 18 plus.

But we put all that effort in yet we then put them into a tin box without adequate training in a system that's going to punish them by death if they make a mistake.

I mean I'm, I literally just, I'm in horror of that.

Why on earth are we letting that happen?

Like we put we in school, we have extra provision for children who have additional needs.

We provide that support.

If they're having issues with bullies, we approach it in the playground.

Yet we're doing nothing about this.

And this is the one thing that's going to kill them, really will kill them.

Like it's non negotiable.

Physics doesn't lie or it doesn't change just because we don't think it applies to us.

So I mean it's a whole nother podcast topic really.

The how do you change culture and how do you change attitude and influence that?

Yeah, no, I think that's really important, Kate.

And I think comes back to something that Tom said earlier about agreements.

I think there are.

I know Warwickshire County Council have been running and I think you've been involved, Kate.

As well, parental webinars for a while.

And there's more and more families now that are doing their own thing.

They are kind of seeing this evidence which has been presented publicly now and saying, well, I wasn't worried about this.

I was thinking about, you know, sexual health behaviours.

I was thinking about drinking, drugs.

I wasn't thinking about this as a risk.

But clearly this is something I need to think about.

And are doing their own parenting agreements about what does that post licensure period look like in terms of carrying passengers?

And that's great.

It's really good that we're empowering parents to know, have the knowledge because then they can then act on that.

But as always, that discussion earlier, you can't do everything voluntary because it won't reach everybody.

And you know, we're still at that voluntary uptake stage at the moment.

And it's great that more and more families are doing it.

I think one of the massive misconceptions, and you guys will know this better than me being instructors, is that, you know, parents still just think it's about learning how to control a car.

I mean, and we know young people are the best people to learn very quickly mechanical skills.

They can do it much better than we can, much quicker.

But that does not equate a safe driver.

And it's just, as you say, changing that culture and that understanding around that.

I think we'll get there.

These things just maybe that's back to the reflection over the 20 years.

Sometimes these things just take a long time.

But I think the good thing is I can see that it's starting to change, which, you know, it has to be a positive thing.

Yeah, it's really reassuring.

Definitely.

Okay.

I absolutely love that comment, absolutely love that comment about raising children that you do, you know.

Well, mine are 26 and 27ish now.

Yeah, 26, 27.

And I couldn't agree with you more.

You nurture them, you do everything you can, bring them out to safety, then you put them in a steel box which will kill them.

And you know, you've absolutely hit the nail on the head.

And every, every parent, every young driver should hear that comment.

They should listen to that comment.

That, that comment should be broadcast far and wide.

You spend so you invest so much in making sure your children are kept safe in so many areas of life.

Why don't you do the same when they, when put them in a steel box?

Because that is where it's all going to come, where it's all going to unravel.

It's going to unravel anywhere, that's where it's going to unravel.

And you know what?

I think we should be recording this, Gary.

We should be recording it and we should be playing it.

I think there's an element of that that kind of relates to the Forget Me not families in that the concept of losing your child in whatever format is just so excruciatingly awful that it's easier to stick your head into a sandbox and go, la, la, la, la, la, la.

This isn't happening.

I don't wanna think about this.

It's too difficult and not actually deal with the problem because it is.

It's just the worst thing you could possibly.

That could possibly happen to your, your family.

You've definitely put me off wanting kids, Kate.

Sorry, Tom.

Yeah, I mean, it's great fun, really.

They're lovely sometimes.

Don't change it now.

No, that's exactly what I was gonna say, Kate.

It's the optimism bias and it's a very natural reaction.

Like when you hear awful things happening, we have to kind of think, well, that can't happen to me, thinking about that thing.

That's a sort of a natural capability we all have.

So.

And that's why I think the stories, and particularly I think Sharon Huddleston's story of her daughter Caitlin is really an important story because they were just normal girls doing normal things, going on a night out and it was purely inexperienced.

There was no.

Otherwise parents can kind of think, oh, well, my kid's a good kid.

They're not, they're not going to be racing around, they're not going to be taking drugs, et cetera, et cetera.

And you know, this is where the brain science is so important is we know that even really good kids can get taken away by the moment.

That's just the way their brains are operating.

They're thinking about risk and we're not thinking it's the risk and reward mechanisms, it's the dopamine.

It's the kind of the chances of something happening, like you were talking about earlier, Ollie, versus actually enjoying it in the moment.

And as an age group, they're all susceptible to that, just to different degrees.

And it's just a, a difficult message to get across to parents for sure.

Well, it isn't, isn't Liz, because, you know, yes, there's a problem.

There is a problem.

We have a problem.

We all admit there's.

We all, we all acknowledge there's a problem here, but actually there's a solution.

There's absolutely solutions out there, but it's getting parents and guardians of young people to listen to those solutions, to understand that there is a solution out there.

You know, if you're going to worry about this.

And I was terrified about my boys getting on the road, absolutely terrified.

I spent too many years picking bits up off the road.

You know, my boys are going to be out there was one of the biggest worries I ever had.

But actually, you know, with the parental engagement is that they can very quickly learn whilst they may have these, these well founded concerns around popping their, their nearest and dearest in a little steel box and sending them out on the road at 70 mile an hour on a dual carriage and motorway and it can all go very quickly, wrong very quickly.

But there's things they can do, they just need to understand what it is they can do and take that information on board, like go out and assess with the driving instructor, you know, learn about what it, you know that learning to drive isn't just the mechanics of learning to drive, it's about that whole driving attitude.

There's an entire, there is an entire attitude to driving.

It's not just how, learning how to change gear and get a junction or roundabout, it's about the entire attitude of learning to drive.

And when you're out driving, it's about your, your, your personal attitude when you are driving because that's how you're going to interact with everybody else on the road.

Good attitude, good interactions, safe driving, safe journey.

You're going to get from A to B.

So once there is a problem out there, there's also a solution.

Yeah, no, I agree, Ollie, and I think it's, it's providing a positive, hopeful message that you can actually do something about.

And as you say, there's, there's plenty of things that we know that people can do that's within their reach that will make you reduce risk.

For instance, there's some research from Australia that shows if you have a family car, so rather than having a vehicle that you give to your child when they pass their test, if you actually have a shared vehicle, obviously you've got to make sure that's insured correctly and that's protective.

And it's protective for years because you've got to negotiate.

When are you going to have that vehicle, you probably better not make it a massive mess because there's going to be problems.

So it kind of keeps those communication options open and it's a very practical thing that you can do to reduce risk, reduce costs as well.

So having Those if then plan discussions about if this happens, what are you going to do?

So there's loads of things that we can help parents do.

And yeah, you're right, it needs to be hopeful and positive.

That's vitally important.

We can't turn people off with not wanting to engage with it because it's too awful to think about.

Well, we reflected back over 20 years there.

So just briefly, what's next?

What's next for Dr.

Box?

Yeah, what's next?

Well, pretty busy finishing off, I have to say, before the end of March.

There's a lot of work you have to do in sort of disentangling yourself from things you've been doing for 20 years, I have to say.

But in terms of what I'm up to next, I mean, it does feel like a big transition, but I have been doing independent consultancy work part time now for three years, so it's really an extension of that work and being able to do more of it.

So it doesn't really feel like I'm stepping away from the road safety sector.

I suppose, if anything, it feels like I'm leaning a bit more into it because I can focus purely on road safety research, intervention design and evaluation with, you know, a whole host of different organisations, you know, public, private, third sector organizations as well.

So, yeah, focusing full time on that from April.

Got some really interesting projects in the pipeline which I'm really looking forward to getting involved with.

And, you know, we've talked about the race safety strategy and yeah, I just think the timing, it does feel right.

You know, we've got these stretching targets, as I say, I think we've got to throw absolutely everything at this to start getting any movement towards these casualty reduction targets.

And it feels like the right moment for me really, to step into a kind of evidence translation implementation stage, if you like, and playing a practical role in helping organisations deliver road safety improvements that hopefully are going to be working.

So I think it's more about continuing conversations like we're having here.

And as I said earlier, I think we just all need to collaborate and work together and I'll get the opportunity to do that even more, I think, in my new role.

Excellent.

Well, Ollie gave you a big.

What's the word?

Metaphorical hug early, but I'm going to take a moment to thank you personally because you were really kind of my first proper venture into the road safety sector and you've just been ridiculously helpful.

It's like I email you asking for stuff and you just say yes, like, and I ask for some weird stuff and you just like, yeah, I'll do it if I can.

So yeah, you know, on the personal you've been really excelful and I know the impact that you have had on driving instructors as well.

Not just through, you know, stuff you've done with me, but through when you've attended conferences and whatever.

And look, I say this all the time but you're responsible for the highlight of my entire instructing career which is taking you to Tesco's Nettingbrough that time.

Just very surreal moment for me.

So yeah, big thank you for that.

But we're going to move on.

I want to touch on this final topic, keep this quite brief I think, so we can, can wrap up.

But the thing I wanted to touch on today was just the idea of drink driving because I've just been looking a little bit into the road safety strategy and other parties position on that strategy and one of the, the things put forward in the world safety strategy was looking at a reduction in the alcohol limit that we could have when we're driving.

And it just interested me a little bit that reform in particular have come out and said that if the alcohol limit is reduced they will bring it back up again, they will overturn that basically when they come into power.

And on a slight side note to that, they're also looking to make alcohol cheaper.

So not only do they want to potentially raise the limit back up again, but they also want to reduce the cost effectively, you could say encouraging drink driving.

But I'm saying that not putting words in your mouth.

And I just think that it's important that this is brought back into the conversation because I know that drug driving is becoming a bigger risk, a bigger danger, a bigger problem than drink driving is.

But I think that I, I don't want to see drink driving swept under the carpet, especially when we now have an opportunity for it to reduce, even if it's potentially going to be overruled.

So I think the thing that I want to say maybe to instructors and to anyone else is this is something we need to keep talking about.

You know, it's something that I find, I'm not meaning to plug it but I find the honest truth really useful for this because on driving lessons I.

This is one of the few things that I struggle to bring into a lesson because a lot of 17 year olds don't drink and drive.

It's not in their brain.

The drug one, they'll often mention it to me about, they were in their mate that was smoking smoke while they were Driving, but the drink one rarely comes up.

So the honest truth for me is a really good way to shoehorn that in.

So, yeah, I just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on all that that I've just spouted there.

Yeah, I'll come in very briefly, Terry, just on your point about what happens when we have policy change and as I've just said, or leadership change potentially, and as I said, just thinking over those 20 years of we change somebody every 18 months to two years and that's just in the transport department, I think we have to expect that change.

And as I said earlier, I think that it almost makes it more important that we get on and do as much as we can as soon as we can.

Because whatever change will happen in the future, we can be sure there'll be some sort of change.

Interestingly, I was at an event the other day and I was talking to an alcohol charity representative and they were talking about this issue and they said every time it's talked about the kind of the leisure industry gets brought up as a reason why not to increase the alcohol limit and there's no basis for it, but it's just such a knee jerk reaction because as you say, what, what we going to be encouraging people to drink drive.

We think that's a good thing to do.

Like people, you know, we want people to access leisure and opportunities but to get home safely and there's plenty of options available for people to do that.

So yeah, I think we just need to be aware of kind of how these things can change.

And you've just highlighted sort of what can happen politically and can move us backwards.

So as much as we can get as much in as possible now so that it can last as long as possible, I think that's really important.

And on your point about drug driving, there definitely has been an attitude change.

Again, I've heard from the alcohol charities that almost the younger generation now kind of see, you know, drink drinking.

Not even drink driving, but drinking is something that their parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents do.

That's not really for them.

So there is a massive culture change and we know the detection for drug driving is developing and needs a lot more work and resource put into it.

So yeah, as you say, it's something to watch for.

And I think I've heard you talk before, Terry, about, you know, having those conversations about if you're doing these things that you, you can, I cannot be taking you for a lesson afterwards.

You know, what you do leisure wise is your choice.

But in terms of driving this is the absolute red line for it.

And I think that's really important at that, that, that sort of level too.

I'll let you come in in a second, Kate, but I did just want to say that the thing I'm finding with learners now when it comes to drink driving, there seems to be more and more.

And by this I don't mean all, but more and more that are.

My dad wants me to pass my test so he can take me to the pub.

And then that leads to a conversation of, are you doing that now while you're learning?

And again, that number seems to be growing.

The people that have L plates on and their dad gets them to drive them back and forth from the pub while their dad's drunk.

And some of them aren't aware that that is illegal.

Some of them are aware, Some of them just think it's acceptable, you know, And I think that again, we've spoke about this a lot today, but getting to the parents with that as well is going to be a big thing.

But, yeah, that seems to be the bigger thing regarding drink drive when it comes to the youth, at least in my anecdotal experience.

But yeah, sorry, Kate, go on.

I think the fact that they're saying this, that this is what they would want to do and what they see as the way forward just demonstrates the cultural problems we have around attitudes to road safety.

That if they think that that's okay and that's, that's just, you know, what, what was everyone else thinking?

If there are people voting for it because that's what they want.

We're up against a real battle to change not just attitude towards drink driving, drug driving, but attitude towards speeding and mobile phones, everything, everything else on the road.

Because suddenly if drink driving is more acceptable, might just get my phone out of the traffic lights, then if we're okay to increase my alcohol content.

So I, I would say if, if that happens, if they get in, if that's the road they choose to go down, excuse.

We are very much going to be needed as like an industry, all our driving instructors, all 46,000, is that we're up to now.

We will have to stand up and make sure that we are shouting and there's a lot of us to shout that we can't let that happen and that we've got lots of things we do need to change in attitude.

Tom, Ollie, anything you want to add to this before we move on?

I mean, yeah, I was kind of listening, listening then thinking when you were saying about that, Terry, I wonder Whether it's like we mentioned before about people selling part three and standards check courses.

Is it they think they're doing this because that's what people want.

And as we know within our industry, what people want and what people need aren't always in line.

So I think the highlight for me today is very much about how important education is for everybody because we're all responsible for road safety.

Right.

In that case, I think we're done for the day.

So I'm going to give you all chances to remind people where they can find you.

Let's do it in reverse or this time.

Dr.

Box.

I know we've just done a big 20 year reflect and you told us what's coming up, but just remind people where they can find you.

Yeah, I mean I think probably the best place to find me is just on LinkedIn because that kind of links me to the various different organizations I'm involved with.

But ECM Research Solutions is the best place for me going forwards from April and I'm still involved with all the work I'm doing at Copilot in the Vision Zero community and Toolbox.

So you can find me there.

Awesome.

Mr. Stanson, people can either find me one of three locations which is head of training at the ADI NJC.

You can find me as managing director at Bright Coaching or at my co founder of Drive Up Training which is our driving school.

So I am on mylearner driver on the co.uk mylener driver.co.uk or on Facebook

or I'm on LinkedIn as me, myself and I.

Excellent.

And Ollie Taylor, where can people find you?

Tara, just before I do that, can I leave your listeners with a part in your shot?

Go for it.

So in the first time in a decade, over a decade I think it is, we have a road safety strategy.

A question to everybody listening to this.

Doesn't matter if you're a driver, instructor, road safety professional, parent, doesn't matter who you are.

What part are you playing to support the new road safety strategy?

Basically that is all I want to ask people.

What part are you playing?

And you can find me at www.theonestruth.co.uk thank you.

Thank you, Terry.

No problem.

You can find more from me at the instructor podcast or the membership which is patreon.com forward/inventor.

Or you can also find me on the committee of the ADI NJC and probably the place I've forgotten but they'll do for now.

Links for all this stuff will be in the show notes.

But yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed this.

Thank you guys for joining me and feel free to send us some feedback via Facebook and stuff like that.

So, yeah, take care.