What happens when you mix scorching temps, dirt trails, wild river crossings, and a 100-mile adventure in the mountains?

In this run-focused episode, Kelly and Sara "run" head first into the world of ultramarathons, with on-the-ground in-the-dirt coverage from the legendary Western States Endurance Run.

They're basically ultrarunners now — risking heat and fatigue to answer important questions like: Why is Western States so famous? What is the deal with the wild lottery system where it takes athletes 10 years to earn a spot on the start line? How do researchers study these runners in the middle of racing? And does Western States live up to the hype?

This includes interviews with:

• Ultra insider and Western States broadcast commentator, Corinne Malcolm, who breaks down the race’s history, grueling lottery system, and the spirit that makes Western States more than just a race.
• This year's oldest female runner, Diane Grim—also a first-time 100-mile-racer.
• Western States Medical Research Directors Dr. Megan Roche and Dr. Emily Kraus, who share the findings that come out of research conducted during the event: carbs, hydration, and GI distress.
• And the race winner, Abby Hall, in the moments after her surprising (but not surprising) win.

But first, on the other end of the running spectrum, let's talk about Faith Kipyegon’s attempt to become the first woman to run a sub-4-minute mile — and whether, even in failure, she succeeded?

Today is all about running: the people, the science, the breadth and depth of what it means to go the distance.

Hello, feisty people.

Welcome to episode two of the Feist, where we talk your favorite sports with your feistiest friends.

Did I get the intro line right?

The gist?

Yeah, I.

You didn't like my intro for today's episode was where today's show exceeds even our capacity to care about ultra running.

I still care about ultra running.

I feel like you still care about ultra running.

Because I felt like after.

How many hours were we at Western states on Saturday?

3Am I don't know, 20, maybe 11.

The funniest thing was to me was that we covered a race from essentially we arrived at 4am and got home at midnight.

Right.

So that was like our day.

And when I flew out the next day, the race was still going on like this.

It's.

It's so epic.

Obviously we saw the winners finish, but yeah, no, I still.

Having seen it and having had time to recover from seeing it, I feel slightly more invested in ultra running than I did before we went.

Okay, that's good.

Yes, we are going to.

Obviously, I feel like we should tell people be talking about western states, the 100 mile today.

We have a ton of interviews we did there.

We're gonna hear from all those people, but we're talking all things running today.

I feel like.

I feel like this is a running episode.

It's a running episode.

Yeah.

To true to our.

Your favorite sports part.

And there will be times in future where we talk about other sports.

Other sports like rugby or soccer and things like that.

But yeah, we're staying kind of within our endurance sports lane for the second episode.

It's because we were so.

We went up last week to yesterday.

So we went up a few days early because there's like a big trail running conference.

A lot of people gather.

It's a thing when you think we were there, like, oh, sorry, I'm saying up because from my house, it is literally like up the mountains.

So you just drive up like and.

For me down, because it's south, which obviously makes a ton of sense.

Yeah.

So we drove from my house up the mountains to Truckee to Tahoe.

But I was about to say on Thursday, as we were walking over to listen to the women's pro panel, Faith Kipjon was about to do her like, sub four attempt in Paris.

And so we were pulling up our phone to watch it.

And literally, like everyone around us was also watching on their phones, which was really like.

I felt like we had to like all watch.

Wait a second.

And then we can start the pro.

They should have.

They really should have just projected it in that main square at, at Palisades Resort and then gone back to the pro panel.

It's true.

Because it did feel like it was a good like other, you know, we're going to talk like fastest mile ever and then we're going to talk like hundred, hundred miles other end of the spectrum.

Totally.

Yeah.

And so Kelly, just for like, so for anyone who doesn't know Faith.

Kip, you gone.

Did I pronounce that right?

Yeah.

Kip, you gone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I was just like as we were watching it.

So it was basically there was this attempt to go under the four minute mile and it was backed completely by Nike.

Right.

And even if she had done it, it probably would not have been official.

Is that right?

Yeah.

So what it kind of for record.

I feel like people are a little familiar with the breaking two marathon attempt for the men a couple years ago where Nike pulled out all the stops to get why am I losing his name now?

Kipchoge to run a sub two hour marathon and it would not have counted for an official record.

Right.

Because they had these pacing strategies.

They were like, it was like win aided.

They had like a drafting card, you know what I mean?

Like they had all this stuff that was not legal in, in record attempts.

So this is, I don't want to say the women's equivalent because it's not exactly the same.

But this was like that, right.

Where they took all this science and technology and kind of like threw it behind a big name female runner to try and break a big barrier.

Right.

That which in this case was the four minute mile.

Right.

And what was some of that like?

I know she had a special suit, she had special shoes, she had pacers surrounding her in kind of like an aerodynamic formation.

What were some of the other like, you know, technology things they were doing?

So the pacing was the big one.

There was this paper written back.

Well, I'm sure it was written before, but it was released a few months ago that kind of hypothesized using like aerodynamic models on the computer that if you had the right pacing formation and like right number of people that you could shave that a form that a sub 4 minute mile is possible.

Right.

Because Faith has run a 407 mile before.

She has the world record.

So that is the fast.

That had been the fastest mile and she's run a 50.

So the 15.

So if you did the math and was like, well, if she continued running at that pace for 100 more meters, it was a little faster.

It was like a 406 equivalent.

But, but so, so she was still like pretty off a four minute mile is my point.

She was like six or seven seconds off.

Well, for sure.

And I think that was a lot of what people were saying was like actually taking seven plus seconds off of, of a, of a mile is a big ask no matter how much technology is involved.

Um, but also like I was just thinking, okay, before that, like did people go 407, 408, four, you know, 409.

But that wasn't actually the case.

Like her 407 run was like a big jump up from Sifan, Sifan Hassan, who, who ran 4:12.

Right.

And so like there was like already the women were taking these big chunks off and so it in with view of that as well.

Like they're.

I think they were depending a lot, leaning a lot on their technology.

Yeah.

So it's.

The pacing was the big one.

That was where this paper was like, okay, if you had the exact right pacing in this computer model, you could go from 407 to four.

Yeah.

And to be fair, watch, you know.

Yeah.

So she had all these.

She had what was it, 11 pacers.

Yeah, she had 11 pacers.

And there was like a really crazy formation where they.

Because they ran it on a track, so they weren't just in front of her, they were also to the side and behind her to like help with the wind turbulence.

I, I was a little disappointed that the pacers waited until she started running to then get information.

I felt like they should have been in formation already.

But that's just my.

That was a nitpicky point.

Yeah.

She also had fancy shoes that were not totally legal, but that's neither here nor there.

She had like a speed suit.

She had a 3D printed bra, which actually is like the coolest thing.

I don't know if that made her faster or not, but like it just was.

I don't, I fully do not understand how a 3D printed bra makes her faster.

But it does sound cool.

I think it like didn't like absorb sweat was the idea.

So it didn't get heavy.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, that was the like.

Because in theory you really have to be like pretty warmed up to be like ready to go for this kind of an effort.

So you would kind of be already sweaty and everything.

But yeah, so that was, that was the idea.

But it Was still like, a big ass.

Kelly, this is why we.

I don't run fast because my bra is so heavy.

I mean, geez.

Who knew?

Geez.

And they sold.

I mean, there was.

In a stadium in Paris.

They sold.

I actually think they gave away tickets.

Um, but you could get a ticket to go watch her at, like, 8pm on Thursday night in Paris.

I don't think the weather was ideal.

It was a little warm.

But, you know, there was a thing, wasn't there, about how they started the clock?

Oh, well, yeah, I was gonna say.

So we were watching it, and she was pretty close.

I mean, obviously, like, you don't generally get faster as these things go on.

And she was like, right off the dot.

Yeah.

So it's like, yeah, you'd have to speed up and that's, like, probably not gonna happen.

Yeah.

She only slightly.

I mean, she really was on those, like, one minute per lap pace.

Right.

Like, so technically, a mile is like an extra nine meters, where the extra.

Nine, including the nine meters she was on the.

Like, she was really, like, right on the rivet of the pace, like, she would have had if she kept it up.

It might have been like, a 401 or a 402.

Right.

And I think some people were like, well, if she hadn't really gone for it, she could have run, like, a 403 or 404.

But she really went for it.

And then the last 200 meters.

Oof.

It looked ugly.

Oh, it was.

Oh.

As someone who knows, like, anyone who knows what it's like to run on the track and feels that.

Has felt that pain of, like, anything looking beyond an 800, you know, it.

Oh, man.

I felt that in my core watching her.

That was.

She had really.

And this is someone who obviously knows how to get the best out of herself and how to push herself on the track.

Like, this is.

And we.

When someone like that really has, like, spent everything like that, it was really incredible.

Yeah.

Now you're making me think about that feeling where, like, your legs literally won't move and people are pat and you're like, oh, no.

Yes.

Yes.

It looked like that.

Yeah.

And so she ended up running a.

406, which was still a world record, but.

Which is.

Yeah, but doesn't.

Right.

It's still, like, the fastest anyone's ever.

Any woman's ever run.

But, yeah, I think some people were hoping, like, oh, well, if she hadn't.

If she had paced it a little more, maybe she would have run, like, a 403.

3.

That's not what this was about, man.

This is about going for it.

Yes, it was.

Yeah.

But, yeah, then I was telling.

So if you were watching for our fans who were feisties, who were deeply also engaged, the time came up when she crossed.

It was like 406.9 or something like that.

And then they corrected it down by half a second.

They were like, oh, 406.4.

And you were kind of like, okay, what?

Like, maybe I misread that.

Apparently Nike didn't start the clock at the gun.

Like, you know, a gun goes off, the clock starts.

They started running the clock when she crossed the start line.

Like, so it subtracted her reaction time to the gun, which is weird.

That's like, not how running works.

Right.

But like other aspects of this that are not how running works.

I mean, at this point it's just like, fine.

Just like cruise through the start line to get the leg.

That's why I was like, why don't you at least then give her like a.

Like, give her a few meters and like do a running start.

We're just gonna do that.

Jog into it, you know?

Yeah.

I mean, if we're just making up rules, why not?

Right?

We are.

So.

I mean.

Yeah, I. I get it.

Although it would have looked weird it as it was.

I mean, not weirder.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I had a lot of people.

I mean, we had.

I think in our.

A lot of people said they had like, very mixed feelings about it because they're certainly.

You know, Nike has like a mixed history for sure, with like, female athletes.

Yeah, yeah.

Which, like.

And that's not valid.

Like, that's totally valid.

It's not valid as a complaint.

But I am totally here for, like, let's make a spectacle of like a women, a female athlete.

Let's.

Right.

People were into it.

Yeah, they were.

Do you think they'll do it again?

Yeah.

This weekend.

Okay.

This upcoming weekend at the Pre.

The whatever they call it now, the Pre Classic, the meet up in Oregon.

And she's gonna.

So she's gonna try and run an actual certified world record, which will be interesting to see.

This is the same thing happened with the two hour marathon.

Right.

Then the second time they did it like a year later, however many months later, they didn't have all of as much crazy stuff.

They just had like some Pacers and they did it on the streets of Berlin with like, Crowds.

And.

And he did it.

He went like, whatever.

He went 159 something.

So maybe she.

Like, actually, maybe it's really, like, in your head.

Maybe all this science and technology.

Yeah.

Oh, I think she should try again.

She'll get it this time because, like, once you.

There's so much pressure on the first time, like, that was the other thing that I really felt like watching her, like, jog out into the stadium and all those people there.

And, like, there's all of this stuff on you.

Like you're wearing a freaking 3D printed bra, you know, like, this is pressure.

And.

And then now that she's already kind of like, quote unquote, failed, even though she set a world record and I.

Right.

I'm saying failed as in, like, I love her.

Her effort was amazing, and she failed on that goal.

Like, now the pressure kind of.

There's like a pressure valve that's released.

Like, it's off.

I bet she could go.

This weekend in, like, regular competition.

That's what's so funny is, like, now she's gonna be wearing legal spikes, no pacers, and watch her just, like, kill it.

Yeah.

So it's an interesting, interesting thing, but I am all for, you know, everyone on their phones watching.

Let's.

Let's.

Yeah, it does.

Yeah, for sure.

It creates something for everybody to get behind and talk about and watch together.

Yeah, it creates unity like sports should in some ways.

Yeah.

So.

But we were in western states while we were watching it.

Or actually we were in the Palisades resort in Olympic Valley before Western states while we were watching it.

And I feel like that is in our running theme show here today.

The other.

The other, like, just.

Is it still running?

Like, so many.

Like, they were hiking.

They were power hiking up the really steep stuff.

Oh, like, is 100 miles still running?

Is that what you're.

I mean, obviously they.

Yeah, obviously they were running.

I'm not saying they weren't.

Not saying the effort.

Right.

I am in no way diminishing alter, like, the effort, but would you still say it's like.

It's not.

It feels like a totally different sport than mild running is what I'm saying.

Yeah, I think it's a difference.

I think it's a different athlete with different skill set.

There's no, like, the.

There's.

They were definitely running, and I feel like that's a big way that, like, ultra running has evolved in over the last, like, decade is, like, there used.

I think there Used to be a lot more power walking, you know, and now you're just out there.

Like, the guys, they finish in 12 hours, right?

No, they finish in 14.

14.

So you're like, you know, you're putting together like four and a half hour marathon after four and a half hour marathon out there, like in the most insane trail up and down, right?

Like, it's.

They are.

They are running a time that like most average people run for like a flat marathon on like pavement, you know, and then they're doing it again and again and again.

Oh, no, they definitely are.

I'm like.

But it's like a different.

Well, I guess I'm saying running.

I'm just talking about like the little actual motion.

Like we were down, like they had to ford a river.

Right.

Like, like that was part of it.

And they had to.

Like we were at.

Right.

I'm saying, like, that's a different kind of running.

Yes, absolutely.

Yes.

They had.

There was like the part where we were up at the escarpment, which is kind of like the high point.

Like, I'm pretty sure you had to use your hands on some of those rocks.

Yeah.

You know, like, it's a different.

It's a different thing.

It was hard for me to hike up and it's at altitude.

Right.

So where they start is pretty like it's like just under 7,000ft.

And then they sort of climb to like close to 10,000ft, I think.

And that was like hard for me to.

Even in some of those sections like you just described, like that little technical section section on the way up is like, I wanted to stop during my hike, you know, and here they are just like running nuts.

So we are, we do have, I feel like the expert in Western States.

We talked to Corinne Malcolm.

I just, I really enjoy.

Somebody introduced us at Western States as the Corinne Malcolm of triathlon.

And so I feel like now we are bringing Corinne to all of you as the expert in training.

Right.

And how is, like, what is the Corinne Malcolm of.

Of ultra running?

What does that mean?

Like, what is her background Exactly?

Yeah, so Corinne has done Western States.

She's a very, very good runner.

She was a pro runner.

I think right now she's been like a little injured.

And so she still runs, but is like kind of working her way back to the Western states.

She does the live broadcast at Western States.

So if you watched, you saw her kind of for 20 hours talking.

She also puts on the, like a lot of events to get more women into.

Into the sport.

More women from A variety of backgrounds into the sport.

Like we put a lunch on with them in the days leading up to Western States for all the women there.

That was really fun, really great.

We, so we like met a lot of women who were there for Western states or who had been there for the weekend before, like the shorter race, Broken Arrow, which is like even more technical anyway, separate point and so.

And so then, you know, so Corinne's kind of like the expert and so we asked her to give us kind of like the background and everything people need to know about this race.

What do people need to know about Western states?

That's the million dollar question, I think a little bit.

I mean, Western States is one of the oldest hundred mile races in the world.

I think it's our 52nd year making this race happen.

It started as a horse race, actually, the Tevis cup, which still goes on today.

We're standing in Olympic Valley, California, and the runners on Saturday are going to run 100.2 miles from here to the Placer high school track in Auburn, California.

They go up for a ways.

It's technically a net downhill course, but they do have to go up.

They crest over 8,000, 9,000ft in the high country and then they do a lot of descending and a lot of ascending all the way along the American River Canyon to make their way to Auburn.

So they do get lower in elevation the entire race.

The race is known for its wicked downhills.

They're incredibly long.

It's known as a, like a quad destroying course.

Yes, there still is, I think 17,000ft of climbing in it, but there's over 20,000ft of descending in it.

And so the downhills is actually what gets a lot of people in this race.

All right.

And it's obviously the oldest and that's probably what makes this such a big deal.

But why else is it like such a big deal?

Like it's what everyone's heard of.

If they've heard of 100 mile races.

It is really hard to get into, which I think is part of the reason why it is so hyped.

And it's really a special experience.

There aren't many races in the US that have a grassroots feel still, but you'll see at Forest Hill on Saturday what makes this race so special.

The community that comes out to cheer these runners on, to take care of them is really next level.

It feels like going to a race in Europe with the crowds and the cheering, but you're still in the middle of nowhere, California.

Like little tiny Forest Hill, California.

So So I think that that is incredibly special, but it does.

It takes people eight, nine years.

I just had lunch with a woman, Makiko, who I think next year will be her ninth year applying to the lottery, so she should get in.

But it takes, it takes almost a decade to get into this race now.

And you have to run a qualifier every single year to apply to the lottery, which is 100k or 100 mile race from a very long race list.

But it takes, it takes years and years to get in the competitive field is also a highlight of the race where we probably have 30 men and 30 women that are going for those top 10 spots.

The top 10 spots are really important because you get an automatic entry into the following year's race.

So you do well enough, you get to run another hundred mile, but you don't have to race your way in.

So that's the other component for the professionals in the fast end of the, of the race is that there's a golden ticket series where two to three men and two to three women at a select group of races over the course of the year, mostly 100ks, but 100 mile at Javelina in Arizona in October qualifies them into the elite four.

And so people chase golden tickets throughout the course of their season to try to make it here to western states.

So I think it's the competitiveness at the front end, it's the years it takes to get into the race and the time you've put into it.

There's a woman from San Francisco named Jen who's running this year.

In the decade she spent putting in for it, she's moved back and forth across the country twice.

She's gotten a graduate degree and she's had two children.

And it really summarizes the experience that people go through working to get to western states.

And it's not less special to get to do it later on.

There are, I want to say, 18 people in the race over the age of 60 and seven men over the age of 70 in the race.

Including our oldest woman in the race this year is 65 during her first ever hundred mile.

And then the oldest man in the race trying to be the oldest ever finisher is 80 years old, Nick Bassett, and he's looking to finish the race on Saturday as well.

Who's your pick for the women's race?

All right.

I mean, that's like picking my favorite child.

Is that fair?

Is that fair to pick my favorite child?

I don't think I'm allowed to go on the record to do that.

I mean, if I pick with my heart, you know, honestly, some of my best friends include people like Abby hall and Keeley Henninger.

And so I would love to see them run the races that I know they're capable of here.

Abby has not yet nailed that hundred and it's been due to execution, not fitness or ability.

So I would love to see her run.

She was on a golden ticket quest this year and she actually got a ticket because MK Sullivan is pregnant and MK deferred her golden ticket spot and that ticket rolled after Abby had already made another attempt to try to qualify.

So that story is just super beautiful.

She rolled her ankle really badly and actually was non weight bearing for I think like six weeks after the race.

She's also a medical student right now, so it's like, come on, Keely.

So lots of cool stories to root for out there from the very front of the field all the way to the final finishers in Golden Hour on Sunday.

And that's maybe the other thing that's really important about Western states.

Welcome to my monologue is that Golden Hour is the final hour of the race.

It's hour 29 to hour 30.

You have to be to the finish line in under 30 hours and it is always a nail biter.

There are people who always finish after that cutoff as well.

Um, but I will be back on the track to do commentary for the final two hours of the race and I will be in tears for a large part of it because these people's stories, they've been out there fighting for 30 hours and to watch them make it to the track and be celebrated by everyone who's already finished the race, people who have had to drop out of the race and all their friends and family is, is really, really special.

So I would, I would actually say, you know, you can tune into the finish of the pros, but tune into the final hour of the broadcast on Sunday because that is really like the magic of trail and ultra running.

All right, so obviously we talked to Corinne before the race and now it's after the race and I do feel like you need to be like spoiler alert.

Her friend Abby hall had a good race.

Yeah.

She, Corinne, was vibing with the universe and vibed correctly because Abby went out there and showed everyone what's what.

Yeah.

So both Abby and Keely ended up in the top 10.

And we will talk a little bit more about the pro race, but I want to start with this whole like lottery system thing.

And you.

Okay.

So I live near this race.

I have a lot of friends who've been putting into the lottery for years.

So I had like heard all about this for a long, long time.

You came in and were like, what the fuck?

What's happening?

Like, how do people, they don't just qualify.

I just, you know, when you hear that people have to qualify for a race, you assume it's like performance based and it is for the pro athletes.

But there are some crazy system about.

Yeah, like you have to, you have to keep running like 100ks and 100milers and get tickets and put in bids in this lottery.

Like what, what?

Why does it take 10 years?

Yeah, like why, why have to keep doing trail running for 10 years?

You're like, what?

So I think you have to think of it as the equivalent of just signing up for a race.

Like, like it used to be like you could just register for western states, right?

When registration opened, you press the register button.

Well, it used to mail your entries in, but you know what I'm saying?

And then you press.

And then there got to this point where like it was doing that thing where it was like people like filling up in 30 seconds, right?

And it was.

So then they went to a lottery system because there were more people than spots.

And so at first it was just like a regular lottery, right?

Like everyone who wants to register puts their name in and they just pick up.

But it's gotten more and more and more and more popular.

And I'm talking as I'm, I'm giving you like a brief history of like 52 years here, right?

So it's gotten more and more and more popular.

And so now.

So then they were like, well, the lottery was getting out of hand and they realized that they wanted to.

And I think this is up for debate and we can talk about in a second.

But they wanted to reward people who have been trying to get into this race for a really long time.

So they developed this system where your lottery tickets double every year.

So the first year you get one ticket, second year you get 2, 4 8, 16.

So there were people this year at like 564 tickets or whatever, you know, whatever doubling for eight years.

Right.

Ten years is.

And there were 60, 000 tickets or.

I don't.

I would have to go a double check.

It was like a crazy number of tickets.

So it's like you're.

If you have one.

Like there was a girl who was 25, I like talked to her who had one ticket in, like put it in just to start the process and it got drawn and she had like.

Was like oh, like so you can get.

Yeah, so you can get in on one.

Right.

If you're like very, very lucky.

But most people get on.

Get in like once they've got like accumulated like 500 or something like that.

Yeah, whatever.

A big.

A larger number than one.

And the other thing is in the last.

Let's say I don't five to seven years, like ultra runnings exploded.

Trail runnings exploded.

Right.

So even that system was getting a little out of hand.

Right.

The one could argue it's just math.

If you keep doubling everyone's tickets every year, like it's going to get out.

There is no end to this.

Right.

Like how does that work?

That's like.

That's like infinite.

Infinite.

Yeah, like that's like.

Like num.

Like that's like tickets to infinity.

Really.

Like that's an interesting way to have it work.

So the way they decided to handle that is that in order to continue, like to validate your lottery tickets every year, you have to do a qualifying race which is basically 100k or 100 mile.

Most people do 100ks and it's like there's a list but it's essentially anyone that's a real like a race.

That's a certified race.

Right.

So that then makes it that for these 10 years, if you want to keep putting in your tickets and having them double and double and double every year, you have to run 100k or you start back over.

Right.

And so it's like, oh, oh, that's a lot of.

That's the part that I don't like I feel like you should be able to.

To run 100k one time and then have your tickets like double to infinity.

Not like and then you have to run 100k the next year and 100k or 100 miles the next year, etc.

And I.

So there are two schools of thought and I'm split.

We talked to a lot of people this week and I think people are a little.

I.

There's one school of thought that's like, okay, you're rewarding the most dedicated runners who have spent 10 years trying to.

Right.

Like, sure.

But then there's this other school of thought that's like, well, we want to make trail running more inclusive.

It's very, very white.

It was 27% women this year at Western states.

And you're basically locking in historical issues now.

Right.

So you're not.

You're not eliminating barriers if every year somebody has to run another race in another race.

Right.

Like, you essentially have to have heard of trail running, know that it's a thing.

Have a ticket like five to 10 years ago to get in this year.

Right.

So, yeah, I mean, it's interesting.

It's interesting.

And there's all these other things, like, caveat.

Right.

There's also the, like, if you come in person, when they do the lottery draw, they draw a couple more in person.

Which of course, favors locals, but I think they're okay with that because they, like, it is still like a.

You know, they finish at a high school.

Like, I think they're okay with, like, a little bit favoring the local community.

Yeah.

And it's also capped.

This is the other thing you thought was crazy when we got there because the race is so old, it would not be allowed to run now if they went and got the permits needed.

Right.

Well.

And Right.

So, like, obviously.

So.

Yeah, so the permits got grandfathered in.

The permits got grandfathered in at about 373 runners, which is not very many.

People in a race, especially considering, like, how many media crews were there?

Right.

I, like, texted you from the start, and I was like, there are legitimately, I'm not exaggerating, more cameras than runners here.

Like, the number of people doing.

Yeah.

Doing media for, like, each individual could.

Because you have.

You had a lot of, like, the elite athletes in the sport of this race, of course.

Right.

Like YouTube crew.

And then there's like other separate.

Like all of the kind of podcasts or YouTube.

I don't know what you call them.

Influencers, you know, content creators.

Like, there was just a ton.

There was.

And then the race broadcast, of course.

And the race does a really good job broadcasting because.

Yeah, there is, like, you said, like a whole nother system for the best runners that is just like a pure.

If you run the fastest, you earn an automatic entry.

And that's even, you know, equal number of men and women.

Like, there's a certain number of races that are called golden ticket.

And they.

And you just, you Know, it's.

You either it's like first, second, or third at certain races.

And they do have a broadcast, which I thought was pretty good considering, like, we weren't getting cell reception in a lot of these places.

Yeah, it was crazy that they had a live broadcast that entire time because it's a long race and they had drone out there for the whole thing.

I have a question for you, though.

Okay.

I was going to say I saw people complaining about the broadcast and I was like, guys, guys.

Yeah.

The fact that they even have a broadcast, it's what is amazing to me.

Yeah.

Okay.

Is this the race?

This is like, things I should have looked up before the podcast but didn't.

So if you don't have the answer, we're gonna have to hit pause and I'll Google it.

But like, okay, there's.

Is this the race where.

Because I know it used to be a horse race.

Yeah, right.

Like back in the day.

And that horse race still exists just as a separate thing.

But.

But then there was like a year or something where like, some guy's, like, horse was injured or something, so he decided to run.

Right.

100 miles.

And that's like.

Is that just lore or is that.

Is that like, for real?

Where did that lore come from?

There was a couple years early on that became like, could you do it faster by horse or by foot?

And that was kind of the origin of this.

Yeah, okay.

That is what I'm thinking of, I think.

But I feel like there's some story.

But yeah, there's, you know, can the humans take on the horses?

Who is faster, the humans or the horses?

That's a good question.

We should go and relook it up because I feel like it was the people, but maybe I'm.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Now we're have to.

We're gonna have to Google and find out, or our listeners gonna have to tell us or we should call Corinne back in and have her answer our questions, but follow up questions.

So, I mean, I think she got at.

It's the combo of how hard it is to get in.

It's a combo of this history.

It is the oldest hundred mile.

I mean, there may be like some very small, like, other 100 miles that are older, but it's like the oldest big one.

Um, you also.

It is also the combo of, like, the pro elite runners.

There is no prize money still, but everyone has it built into their sponsor contract.

So they do win a good amount of money for winning, as you do have.

So it's like, all of that combined together just makes it this, like, crazy thing that draws a lot of people.

Uh, there were 369 runners this year.

100 of them were women.

One non binary runner.

We talked to the oldest woman running, Diane Grimm, 65 years old, and she had gotten in, and this was going to be her first 100 mile.

And I.

She was kind of nervous.

She was very nervous.

Yeah, she was nervous about running.

She was also so amazingly energetic about trail running.

Like, I almost wanted to start trail running because I'm excited for everyone who's about to listen to.

To about to like, pick up her vibes right now and listen to this interview.

Diane Grimm, 65, you're the oldest female runner tomorrow.

But I also found out you just started running when you were 50.

What prompted you?

I used to be a cyclist, so I did road racing and cyclocross.

So cyclocross kind of was, you know, you ran, you.

You rode your bike, you jumped over barriers, and then you had to run.

And so it was a natural progression into trail running.

That's how I thought.

And then you were mountain biking and, you know, you got the flow of the terrain and the roll of the trails, and all of a sudden when you're out there trail running, it's like, oh, this is just like mountain biking, except there's no coasting.

So it was just.

Just to experience the flow of the trails.

And being out in the woods was just.

It was easy transition.

You're saying your husband was like, oh, yeah, let's just do this race.

And then you decided, like, oh, I can run four miles, might as well run six.

Tell us about the first running race you did.

Oh, it was called the Chilly Cheeks.

It was done by Pretzel City Sports.

And so you started off and you ran down like crushed gravel, and then you hit this big bushwhacking section where people were just like ants, army ants crawling up the embankment.

And I hit that part, and I was just like, da, da, da, da.

And I just started, like, passing people and just digging into the dirt in my nails and clawing through, through.

And it was just so exciting.

And then, like, halfway through, I was like, you know, I said to this guy, are we last?

He goes, no, we're killing it.

And I'm like, yeah.

So it was just.

And then I got to the end and I was just like, I'm hooked.

The adrenaline rush was just crazy.

And to be out there, I was like, I might have been 50, but I was 10 inside.

So if, I mean you're only as old as you want to be.

So when you're out there in the woods and you're doing bird calls and jumping over rocks and roots and splashing through creeks, it's like, my mom would have been so proud of me.

Yeah.

It'S just a happy place for me and people that if you grew up in that environment and going back to it, you just.

Your whole soul is renewed.

It's just like this rebirth, which was.

And for somebody that's never been in the woods, just go out and try it, because, I mean, it's just.

It's a joy.

Yeah, it's.

It's just wonderful.

It's just like.

It's refreshing.

How did you get into this position where you're doing your first 100 mile at Western State?

Well, I was fortunate enough to that.

What is it called?

The Running Mullet Podcast.

They.

I was on it as an interview for doing the Black Forest 100K, and it was my first DNF, so it's the first time I ever didn't finish a race.

And so they had me on as far as what.

What inspired me and what kept me going.

And through that, I was discovered and was given a position as a Hokurd outreach street racer.

So that's how I'm here.

So I owe a huge shout out to HOKA and Trail Sisters and just.

For.

Seeing what women of my age can do and that maybe through me, I can inspire someone as I was inspired by my peers or people that I looked up to, that anything is possible.

And in my first hundred, I'm pretty scared.

I think I'm more nervous and more excited, but it doesn't matter because every step forward is a step closer to that goal.

And I have an amazing crew of women.

It's women supporting women, and that's what it's all about.

So the role of a crew, they're like my lifeline.

So I'll come into.

It's like a pit stop, like a nascar.

I hope it's that fast.

So you come into the aid station and you hit the.

The sponsored aid station, and then you see your crew, and your crew is going to give you all your little niceties.

They'll replenish my water.

They'll put ice in my bag.

We have some sticks.

They'll do work out my kinks in my legs.

They'll change my socks and shoes.

And actually I wear ankle braces, so I've actually put little.

Little threads where they're gonna match up my shoelaces.

To the eyelet because I'm not gonna waste any time.

So if they know the exact fit of my brace, I'm in and out like Flynn.

So the idea is to get me in, take care of me and send me out.

And I actually have one of my crew is running the stopwatch.

So I've actually figured in how much time I need at each aid station and they're gonna kick me out.

So she'll give me a one minute warning, 30 second warning, because time is.

Time is money.

What is the time limit that you have on ac?

Well, it's whatever you decide.

So I figured into my plan maybe three minutes at regular stops and maybe like eight minutes to 10 minutes at like major stops.

But the longer you are in an aid station, the faster you have to run.

So, you know, run smart.

If you can't run fast, run smart.

Take that hundred miles and break it down.

I broke it down into four sections, so I only have to do a 50k and then that's over.

And then I do another 50k.

I got good at the first one, I do a second one and then when that one's over, I got a 20 miler.

So looking at the hundred miles at one shot might be too much for me.

And at my age, I can't really remember anything.

So breaking it down into these little sections is.

It's little races.

I only got four little races.

There you go.

All right.

And then last, for other people who are looking to pick up running in their 40s, 50s, 60s, what advice do you have for them?

Get out there and start.

Yeah, just get off the couch.

Somebody says, oh, I'm last.

I'm like, no, you're not last.

Last place person is still home sitting on the couch.

So I don't care if you get out there at 40 years old and do a 5K, even if you have to run, walk, run, walk, that's the way to do it.

That's what I'm going to do for my hundred.

I'm going to run and walk, run and walk.

But the idea is to just get out there and start.

And the easiest way to do that is with a friend.

Because going into that unknown alone is scary.

But if you have somebody that's going to experience that with you, you have power, you have a confidence, you feed off of each other.

And I think that's the main goal, is to, to share the experience just like I'm sharing it with my crew.

I can't be more excited because it's our story.

It's Whether I'm the runner, the Crewer and you're a 45 year old that is going on their first 5k with a whole group of girls in your tutus and your, your great matching shirts, it's all about the story.

So just getting it accomplished is that's what it's about.

All right, so that was us talking Diane, before, and I feel like people want an update.

She did have to pull out halfway, which is like.

I know, I know.

But it was, it was really hot.

I will say that it was hot.

It was really hot.

And there was more than.

There was quite a few people who had to pull out too, I mean as happens in every hundred miler, I think.

But this in particular was.

It was like a 23 DNF read, something like that.

So.

Right.

So I'm sure she'll be back out there.

I'm sure.

And I do want to give a shout out though.

There was the first Indonesian woman to finish, Rini Sugianto, which is awesome.

Like last year was the first hijabi woman to finish.

And so it's just nice to like, you know, again, like get some different people out there.

Yeah.

Because then they can go back to their communities and be like, hey, put your start running now and in 10 years you can do this thing.

Hey, I heard about this really amazing thing that you could spend 10 years of your life trying to qualify for if you run a hundred K to a hundred miles out of at a qualifying race every year.

It's amazing.

It's amazing.

I was surprised.

There were a lot.

I mean, maybe I should have been surprised.

It is pretty international these days.

Like the top 10 women was very international.

I was surprised by that too, honestly, like that it's not this niche American sport anymore that like really.

And even amongst the women there were a lot of folks from different countries in the.

At the elite level too.

Yeah.

And so we have kind of hinted though that we went up for the whole week because we just can't get enough of ultra running.

But it's partially because there was a whole conference kind of before, like leading in to Western states weekend.

There's a trail running conference and then there is also this thing and maybe other people, maybe people, maybe.

I'm like telling all you listeners something you already know.

But a lot of big races have medical conferences right before, like Kona does this with Ironman, where like all of those sports doctors and experts come together and like share research on extreme endurance and all this other stuff.

And then they volunteer for the race or they are the medical crew for the race.

So they do do that Western states too.

And they also have research projects running during the race, which is crazy.

Which is cool, right?

Because it's like real, the real on the ground research happening.

Yeah.

Urine samples are being taken.

Urine samples are being taken.

There was a part of me though that was like, if somebody tried to stop me and ask me questions in the middle of a race, honestly, I.

Yeah, I, I mean, we're gonna hear what Megan and Emily have to say.

But I was like, they seem to be like, oh, if people, people can volunteer to give their urine.

Right.

And I'm like, I would rather give my urine before and after the race.

Although after the race it might take a while.

Yeah.

Then be stopped in the middle of the race to ask what I've eaten over the last like 30, 40, 50, 60 miles.

Like, I don't know, I don't know.

I ate all the things I could from my, from my crew.

So we talked to doctors Megan Roach and Emily Kraus, who are the co medical research directors for Western states.

So we are here at Western States and there's research happening in the background, like some sports science.

Like what does it mean to do research at Western states?

Well, Western states was the origin of research in ultramarathons.

So it's been, it's been going on for a long time.

And Megan and I have been medical research directors for about four years now.

And so we've been able to get involved in both data collection and research, but also help facilitate others to collect, collect data and do research.

And it's been awesome too because runners are great research participants because they're like on time, they show up, they're really motivated for science.

And so we've done a number of research studies and it's awesome to conduct research at Western states because it's like people are passionate about it.

And so every year we've had a number of participants who are eager to contribute to science on things like bone health and cardiovascular health and nutrition and metabolism and heat.

And honestly, there's just so much that goes into training and health of ultra athletes that there's a lot to study.

Yeah, it's really cool.

And also it's cool too because science translates into health.

And I feel like the findings here of doing an extreme event also translate into medicine too.

So that's very cool.

That's so cool.

Okay, so what are some of the fun findings that you've had from the past?

We can start first with like relative energy deficiency in sport research.

So looking at low energy availability and we've done that here in both male and female athletes.

And just seeing really high prevalences of relative energy deficiency in sport and then also looking at how that impacts bone density and how that relates to fueling strategies and things like that.

And so just identifying this as a key area and also recognizing too that a lot of these athletes, like there's a study done by Keely Henninger, who's racing here at western states, like 50% of athletes, like aren't these trail athletes aren't even taking in enough calories per hour during long runs and training.

And so just trying to provide like a lot of education on that.

Yeah.

In that same group, we also collected ferritin levels, so measures of iron stores.

And we were shocked to find how many female runners specifically were at below 30 range of ferritin levels, which is really low and iron deficient.

And thinking about how that might impact performance and just overall fatigability during these big races.

So thinking about very basic things that these athletes can do, like supplement with iron and thinking about their diet a little bit differently is so valuable.

And giving that information and translating that information every year.

Yeah.

Especially up here at altitude too.

Like, we weren't even allowed to go to altitude training camps unless our ferrition was a certain level.

Right.

So like what you said they could, that folks could take iron pills.

Like what would people do to have a better performance than eat more, take iron pills?

Is that basically a little bit of both.

I think, like especially getting your blood drawn is really important too.

And like understanding where you are if you're going to supplement.

And I think the hard part about our research was it was sad in many ways because we were measuring it like three days before the race and seeing low values.

We're like, we should have done this four or five months ago.

And I think it's like, tell them.

Yeah, right.

It's like understanding that timeline of, you know, when we're drawing the ferritin and when you're like being conscious of that.

So I also think it feeds into heat training too, which we just had a presentation on here today, is I think athletes with low ferritin levels should be really cautious with heat training, which is something that's in biking and cycling world and running right now.

A lot of athletes are doing both active and passive heat.

So thinking about that too.

And another thing that we found was related to.

We just lost it.

Oh, the variety of female athletes.

Female athletes were on hormonal contraception they were perior postmenopausal.

So certain factors and certain parts of the survey that we were asking about menstrual cycle, we couldn't really get that information on.

So it just highlighted this gap in the research and opportunity for more research in those certain sub populations of females on hormonal contraception and the peripost menopausal woman.

And isn't that really what it's all about?

Like the female athlete has so many different things like life cycle, it's like different types of birth control or regular cycling woman.

Like there's just a lot of different variables and factors.

Right.

That has to be handled in the research.

So you guys are doing a great job of starting to unpack that.

What's happening this year?

Yeah, this year we've got two studies actually, which is awesome.

One measuring total energy expenditure with a novel.

It's like a really cool process actually where they have runners ingest doubly labeled water to measure the amount of caloric burn that the athletes are having during western states.

And seeing like we expect to see pretty high numbers probably in the range of like 9,000 to 16,000 calories burned during western states.

And that has implications for how we think about like recovering.

Just it's really important.

These events are so taxing on the body that it's important for bone health, for metabolism, for overall recovery processes to really respect that race.

And, and so both looking at the energy expenditure during the race and then in the seven days following the race too.

And then Emily, do you want to talk about the heat training?

Yeah.

And then they're also doing the bone biomarkers as part of that, which is really cool that they're collecting this information on bone, which we don't have the information as far as like what's the bone breakdown.

And so I think that'll be really valuable both during and after.

Then the other study, because there's two studies is more related to heat training and GI distress and hydration.

And so every woman wants to know, honestly in the endurance world.

Right, right.

And so there are two parts to it and there's a questionnaire, a pre race questionnaire.

So certain athletes might just share information on what their heat training strategies are, what their fueling strategies are.

And then there's an opt in part of the study where you can give your urine pre race and they can get an indication of hydration status and a few other factors that can be, can be valuable information.

And then they'll ask questions during the race to assess GI distress.

What they're fueling during the race and then they'll do another post race urine, urine analysis as well.

So I think that there's just a lot of really important information and people are wanting to know how they can fuel, how much they can fuel, what is the limit of that.

And both of these studies are really helping them understand and helping these athletes just train smarter and better.

And I think it's gonna be really cool too because right now we're having athletes push higher carbohydrate totals during training and racing, which is awesome in many ways, but also balancing that with GI distress.

And I think one question that we have as researchers is, is there a sex based difference in that?

Like, you know, are male and female athletes able to oxidize similar levels of carbohydrates to the point that like our fueling recommendations are similar for male and female athletes?

And so hoping that this study kind of launches the field and contributes to more of that research looking at the differences between male and female athlete, folks.

Fueling too.

Okay, Sarah, I have to tell you, while you so people should know, I dropped Sarah off at 4am and she started hiking up the mountain to get to the top before the runners got there.

And then I like wandered around the village looking for like snacks and I saw them collecting the urine samples like they had taken over.

Yeah, well, I didn't like watch the people pee, but I.

Oh, good, good.

Thanks for that clarification.

Anytime.

But they had taken over kind of one of the lobbies of one of the hotels.

Like yeah.

Rooms and were.

And yeah.

Runners would come in, they like register their information.

They like get a little thing.

They go and pee.

You also swallowed a temper, a core temperature pill and then.

Yeah, and then it was like all being collected there, which was super interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool.

I had something to say, but I totally forget now.

That's all right.

Uh, one of the things like obviously I, again, I'm assuming our audience like knows a little bit about, so maybe we're telling them things they already know.

But one of the big topics at this kind of presentation of this information, and it's been a big topic in running and cycling and triathlon lately, has been this whole carb question which Megan kind of hinted at at the end there.

Yeah.

That like the question is like how many carbs can you take in an hour?

How much are you actually using versus just sitting in your stomach?

Does that change in these conditions?

And does it change for women and men?

I think it's a very.

I was Actually surprised that we, like, don't know that yet.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, are we surprised at this point?

But I was.

Okay.

So, yeah.

Between the lines and what they're seeing, because it's like, you know, as scientists, you have this tension between the things that have already been studied.

And you can say.

And there's like, studies and then they've been peer reviewed and then there's another study.

Another study that you can say with confidence is true.

Right.

So we listened to the presentation before we went and talked to Megan and Emily.

And the, you know, somewhere between 60 and 90 grams of carbs seems to be per hour during endurance racing.

Seems to be like what the science is saying we can absorb as humans.

Right, right.

But the word is oxidized.

Whenever they say oxidize, they basically just mean use.

Yeah, I feel like you.

Yeah, yeah, oxidized.

But we know, like, anything, like, even myself from having been an elite athlete and having a coach who was a sports scientist.

Right.

Is that like, we.

The real testing ground is with the elite athletes themselves.

So we were often trying things.

Like I'd be at altitude camp, trying, like, lots of carbs, little carbs, like, all kinds of different things.

I can tell you that.

Like, so the athletes now in real time are like, trying to push that edge of, like, the carbohydrate, like, how much they can intake.

Well, though, I was thinking about what you're saying, and it was if you know some of the dynamics happening here.

Megan's husband, David Roach, was in the pro field and he ended up dropping out with a knee injury.

We actually saw him kind of like right after he dropped out.

He has been pushing the edge of like, how many carbs you can take an hour.

He's doing like 120, 140.

And he's talked about this when he set the Leadville course record record last year, and he's talked about it very openly, like on their YouTube and on their podcast, which is a really good listen if you're like, super into the science.

And so they were doing this presentation saying, like, oh, you.

You know, we.

We found, like, we did all these studies.

You.

With double labeled water, you can only oxidize like 60 an hour.

And Megan's like, well, my husband's experimenting with a lot more.

Literally, like, more than double that.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's like, kind of funny.

And she said that.

Right.

Like, that is like, the athletes are trying things that they're.

Isn't necessarily proof for yet, but yeah.

And I can tell you, like, from all My years of Ironman racing, I am aware that there is a performance factor that's based on, like, how much carbohydrate you can absorb and.

Or oxidize without.

Without having GI destroy us, which is the counterbalance point.

Right.

And if you're someone who is able to oxidize a lot, you're going to have a performance advantage over the long run.

Right?

So, like, not in the first, even three, four hours, but further down the road.

So, like running a marathon off the bike, for example, you have an advantage if you can take in 100, 120 grams of carbohydrate on the bike per hour, or more if you're a bigger dude.

Right.

Depending on your size and stuff.

And so, like, we kind of know that, like, I don't know how much exactly like, of that we're absorbing because that's the work that they do.

But, like, if you're able to, like, take in and handle more, you're going to run faster.

So I think that's where, like, the elite athletes are trying to push the limit.

And the science is like, what do we know about this?

Or are there certain types of carbs we could take to push that limit?

Or, like, asking all of the questions like, does hydration status affect how much how many carbs you can and you can oxidize?

And then, like.

Or does, like, age or sex differences come into play, too?

And I was telling you when we were there that, like, because I've gone on this hole recently and, like, one of the things that's interesting is the official recommendations don't vary by body size, which is super weird to me.

Yeah, but that's like the official, like, official recommendations per, you know, Gatorade Sports Science Institute, like, pick your nutrition.

Is that 30 grams an hour for exercise under two hours, 60 grams for exercise over two hours.

Right.

Like, those are the official.

And it doesn't change, which is super weird because we know that, like, body size affects how much you put out.

So that's again, it's like one of those things where, like, there's things we know and then there's, like, what we're learning in these extreme environments.

Yeah.

I'm gonna say something that's, like, wild speculation.

Okay.

But here we go.

Like, if you go back to the early days of when I first started Iron man, right?

You have, like, the champions were, like, the women were, like, tiny.

Like, you had, like, Laurie Bowden and Natasha Badman and Lisa Bentley, like, they were like, very small humans.

Right.

So part of me Is like, oh, and we didn't have the nutrition products that provide, like, more easily absorbable carbohydrate.

So part of me is like, oh, like, is it possible they didn't need as much?

Right.

And so that was part of their.

And a lot.

A lot of them were, like, really good runners, too.

Like, ran off the bike faster than, you know.

And then you have this, like, next generation that came through of, like, the swim bikers.

And, like, you have a lot of sort of taller, stronger, naturally, like, bigger quote, unquote, like, women who were.

Who have become, like, the modern day champions.

Right?

Yeah.

So, like, oh, our.

Did our nutrition products just evolve and did it, like, allow for, like, more people to absorb more carbohydrate?

Interesting.

And you're seeing that a lot on the men's side, too, especially in, like, cycling or triathlon, where, like, there are absolutely, like, historically bigger guys putting down huge energy expenditures and huge amounts of so.

And being able to do that for, like, a full day or days on days on top of days.

So speaking of the pros, there was also.

I feel like we've talked about all this craziness.

There was also a very high profile pro race happening, and it was.

It was like, it was dramatic because there was going to be a new champion this year on the women's side because all the returning champions were out for, like, different reasons, you know, doing other things.

And so we, like, knew there was gonna be someone new.

And I have to tell you.

So Abby hall ended up winning.

Abby Hall.

Spoiler.

Abby hall won in a fourth fastest time ever.

16 hours, 37 minutes.

It was only a couple years ago that a woman ever even, like, broke 16 hours.

I was looking it up like, 10 years ago, 19 hours.

Wonder.

That's pretty.

A wild increase in.

Right in, like, performance over such a short time.

Like, holy moly.

And I think they were ahead, of course, record pace for a long time.

And then I think just like, where the heat got, like.

I think the heat hit them hard because the women, the front women were in the canyons during the height of the day.

And that's hottest.

That's, like, where it gets really hot.

So they fell off course.

But anyway, it's still, like, a very exciting race.

And I think one of the things in Karin trying to hint at this that people should know about Abbey is that she did not earn a golden ticket in her.

She tried twice and just missed out and so wasn't going to be racing this Year, and then another runner got pregnant.

And Western states has a very generous pregnancy policy.

In the world of sports, you can come back anytime in the future and run again if you're pregnant.

Sorry, can we just say what a great pregnancy deferral program.

Hello, other sports.

That's amazing.

And then they also just roll the spot down to the next person.

So when.

When this athlete was like, hey, I got pregnant, my goal, I'm not gonna use my golden ticket.

This year, it rolled down to Abby Hall.

She like, obviously, it's troll running.

They all know each other.

She, like, called her up and.

Which is crazy.

So she only got this spot because somebody else pregnancy deferred, and she fucking ends up winning.

And that's crazy.

Crazy.

Yep.

And.

And honestly, just.

Just.

Sorry.

Back to my previous thank you to the pregnancy deferral, right?

I was like, what's the whole thing?

Like, this doesn't just benefit.

This benefits everybody, right?

Like, everybody.

And now we have a new winner.

And.

And so I will tell you, I was like, nobody.

I came home and I was telling my husband, like, nobody knew she was gonna win.

Everybody was like, oh, yeah, she's good.

Maybe she'll get seventh or eighth.

Like, she was leading the whole day.

When we saw her, I turned to somebody and I was like, who is that leading?

And they were like, oh, she'll end up, like, seventh or eighth, right?

Like, that was kind of, if she has a good race, she'll be top 10.

I got home and my husband was like, oh, Abby Hall.

No, she's really good.

I knew she would win.

I was like, what?

Like what?

Steve had the inside information.

So anyway, the reason people weren't sure is because she broke her leg two years ago and had, like, massive surgery, had complications, had, like, a blood clot develop in her calf coming back.

Like, it wasn't just like, oh, she sprained her ankle.

She, like, came down weird on her knee and, like, broke her fibia, tibia.

And so it's been two years come back, and she's had, like, she's had a hard time at some other hundreds miles.

Like, she's been better at a little bit shorter.

So.

So.

So.

So this was, like, a really big deal, is my point.

For a lot of people to see her out there running, like, five hours faster than the last time she was here four years ago is crazy.

So, yeah, amazing.

And I got to see her in the finished shoot, like, hugging her husband.

I got to meet her mom, who went out to greet her.

So that's like, I feel like, that's just part of, like, the vibe of the trail running.

Like, I'm just there shooting a video and her mom's just standing beside me waiting for her daughter to come in.

That was really cool.

And I think Kelly, like, you and I, I think we had the same reaction.

We like, a little bit fell in love with the second place woman.

Oh, yeah.

Well, before we talk about second, I feel like we should hear from Abigail because you did get up to this and get a clip with her.

And it is a little hard.

I want to tell everybody.

It is a little hard to hear because people are like cheering in the background and stuff while they're.

While the.

The race announcers are doing the interview.

But I just want you to hear from her because she was just like, so excited.

We have joined by women's champion Abby hall here.

Fastest time in Western States history.

Abby hall, the easiest and most profound question.

What does it feel like to be a Western States Champion?

Absolutely.

I mean, it was not that long.

Running like 22 or 23 hours or whatever it was.

And I don't know, those areas along.

The way played a big role today getting here.

I was talking to Sean before you were finishing and we said, man, Abby.

Wasn'T supposed to be here.

I. E. You didn't get a golden chicken at Black Canyon.

We didn't get a golden ticket at.

P. All the sudden MK Sullivan gives.

You a call and says, hey, I'm.

Pregnant and my ticket's rolling.

To you, it felt like serendipity or kismet.

And I think it's, in a way, I think a K that you were.

Meant to be here, even if you.

Initially weren't supposed to be here.

I wonder what it means to have.

Gotten that opportunity to do what you just did.

But repeating to myself and thinking of.

This whole week was something like, what's for you will find you.

And I really have felt like I.

Was meant to be here.

I pushed through two hard golden ticket.

Events and I just feel so fortunate.

That we're able to work out with.

The ticket roll down.

Yeah, it's.

It's really surreal.

We sort of shared that story with the audience throughout the broadcast here today, how you were sort of flying high.

At the top of the sport and.

Then came crashing down with a really serious injury that's taking a long time to come back from.

Speak to the people out there who are struggling themselves.

Give them a Little help.

That you can still return literally to.

The top of the sport, even when.

You are at rock bottom, alive through.

Dickinson, through the dark times, through the moments where no one's watching.

That is the stuff that makes the days like this.

I really believe that with my whole heart.

So to anyone out there who is.

Going through their own version of that, I mean, I see you.

I relate to my own way and, like, keep going.

Keep seeing it through.

Keep hoping and believing and.

And, yeah, and keep your love for.

Like, if we're talking in the context.

Of sport, like, keep your love for.

The sport at the forefront, and that will never lead you astray.

Your Western States women's champion, Abby Hall.

All right, Sarah, you were saying before?

I was.

We wanted to hear from Abby.

We did fall a little bit in love with second place Fuzhao from China.

She was second last year, too.

But that's not why we loved her.

She just.

She.

We were in.

Okay.

I feel like this needs preference.

We were in the Forest Hill aid station, which is this massive aid station at, like, 60 miles.

There's probably, like, a thousand people there.

It's a scene.

And every time a runner comes in, they're surrounded by, like, 20 people running with them.

Cameras, pacers.

It's like chaos.

And.

And she just got to her crew and sat down and had a bowl of noodles, Right?

So.

Exactly.

It's also, like.

It's a crew pit stop, right?

So we had already seen, like, a number.

We'd already seen a number of men come through, right?

And generally, the vibe was.

And we saw people come after her.

Like, a lot of people didn't sit down, first of all.

A lot of them.

Some people did, but a lot of them were, like, kept standing, which, honestly, after 62 miles, like, if I sat down, I was never.

I would never get up again.

So.

So I feel that.

But, like, a lot of people just came in, like, put ice on me, like, just, like, stood there.

The crew was around them.

But if who's out just there in her chair eating noodles.

She's eating noodles.

She's talking.

Her crew is, like, giving her a foot massage and changing her socks and shoes at the same time.

And, like, it was.

I. I was just like, this is how you want it.

And I really.

I honestly thought, like, that could be her winning.

Like, that could be so clutch that it puts her into the win, which it didn't.

She looked for a little.

Looked for a little while.

Like, she was kind of gaining a little bit on.

Yeah, she was gaining time for sure.

But I was gonna say she was in third, and we saw her.

She did move up into second.

She was closing, but, yeah, I mean, she didn't.

But then she also.

She crossed the line.

She went back and, like, thanked her crew and had them run back across the line with her.

She just.

She was having fun.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think, you know, what I, like, I really absorbed, like, this is this goes back to, like, Diane's interview, the oldest runner that we.

That we spoke to.

That was earlier in the podcast.

And then who's out?

Like, the people who are smiling and clearly just, like, love the trail.

They love running.

The.

Their inner dialogue is clearly very positive in terms of, like, they're.

They love what they're doing.

They're happy to be out there.

Are there.

Now I'm putting.

Now I'm putting things in their head, but whatever.

I'm assuming they feel, like, grateful, you know, for being able to be part of this, being healthy enough to do it.

Like, I think.

I really think that goes a long way when you're running 100 miles.

True.

I will say.

And I feel like it came up a weird amount of times while we were there, only because, you know, we're trying to, like, establish our credentials.

So I've done 100k on this same course.

That's, like, a very popular one around here.

I feel like that gives you lots of credentials, by the way.

That's a long way.

So I just kept thinking about that, though, in these aid stations and stuff, where, like, we had hiked in two miles, and then I had, like.

I was, like, about to pass out.

Right.

And I was.

And I was remembering, you know, doing much shorter distance and just dying.

And I was like, God, how.

How would you maintain?

Because you're out there by yourself.

This race also has fewer runners than the one I did because of the permitting thing.

And so, like, you're out there by yourself most of the time.

Yeah.

You have to, like, talk to yourself into things.

You know, you have to be like, keep going.

Like, it just sounds.

I can fathom it in, like, a way that then makes me be like, I never want to do this.

Yeah, I.

You know, and, like, just watching, honestly, like, watching the first three women, like, I know they must have had moments out there, like, when they were, like, all.

Even Fuzao, smiling away, must have had moments of, like, why am I doing this?

Or, this is hard.

Or like, they're.

You know, they must have.

But, like, all three of them were on a mission.

Right?

Right.

Like, when we saw People come through.

It was like they were in the zone.

They were holding for, like, 16, 17 hours.

Holding on to, like, moving forward, doing this thing.

Like, that's what I was so inspired by.

Yeah, it was crazy.

And it goes for 30 hours.

And the last woman finished, like, four minutes before the cutoff.

I mean, people still finish after 30 hours, but you're not counted as, like, official then.

You don't get, like, a belt buckle and.

Yeah, to your point, like, we came home, we slept, I got up, I showered, and I looked at my watch and I was like, people are finishing right now.