Julian Sarafian was a high achiever, and from the outside, his life looked terrific. He graduated from Harvard Law and was a corporate lawyer. On the inside, though, things were very different. He struggled with gagging and stomach aches; even the doctors told him everything appeared fine. But, after tons of medical tests, he was no closer to an answer for these physical symptoms.

As the pandemic continued, being isolated while working from home, without boundaries at work and the collective trauma, he found his anxiety morphing into depression and eventually into fleeting suicidal ideation. Enough was enough – he knew he had to address this for his own well-being and pursued looking into his own mental health. He got to the point of realizing it was either having his mental health continue to suffer or leaving his career. Julian stepped into the uncertain future, quitting his job for his mental health. He now advocates for mental health so others don’t find themselves in the same situation.

Connect with Julian Sarafian

TikTok:

https://www.tiktok.com/@juliansarafian

Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/juliansarafian/

Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/julian.sarafian

LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliansarafian/

Beacons:

https://beacons.ai/juliansarafian/

Connect with Mike Forrester

https://linktr.ee/hicoachmike

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The guy you see. Is the, is the real genuine guy. Um, he's had a heck of a journey. He's invested himself in the healing process. And, uh, you know, he's been featured in New York times. Uh, let's see Newsweek Bloomberg and just he's open to sharing and you know, he's a real guy. So I'm excited to, to share with you today, Julian Sarafian, Julian, how are you doing today?

All right. If we could, can we start off talking today about where things are on the business side of life?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Happy, happy too. And, uh, I'll try to make it short, but Lord knows the project list grows by the week. So, right right now I'm doing a lot of things, wearing a lot of different hats.

I, um, I'm an attorney by training, but I actually quit practicing law, uh, and working at one of the big, you know, Silicon valley law firms last summer to explore my interest in focus, mental health. So. Mental health is my priority and managing that, but I'm advocating for mental health. In every context I possibly can.

So a lot, a lot of different things. And, you know, I should add content creation has kind of its own sphere. So I stream on Twitch, which. You know, cause we've hung out and I have YouTube channel as well, where I talk about things in the legal profession and mental health and mentorship in general, to get folks into law school as well.

So a lot of things going on. Yeah. And

you've created just an absolutely amazing community, man, hats off to you because it's like, they're just the most welcoming, encouraging. Just supportive group that has come around behind you and, uh, watching them just interact and, and encourage and be there for each other is, is amazing, man.

Thanks Mike, that that means a lot. And honestly, I'm really grateful for, for everyone in our community.

Who's joined from the very earliest days where I idea what I was going to take, talk to, you know, what it's become now. Um, it's wonderful. And I couldn't be where I am without them, honestly. So

yeah, I feel, yeah. What does life look like on the personal side for you?

Uh, you know, I, I, uh, my, my personal side is demanding more of me, which I understand because I haven't really, uh, at least for myself, I should say I've been spending time, quality time with my fiance cat, been hanging out with my dog.

He's been cooking. All of that has been good, but. Doing my own sort of hobbies, you know, playing video games for five hours at a time. Those things have not happened all too frequently lately. And I felt it, you know, I felt it because it's important to get your own downtime, just, just you. Uh, but that said mental health has been good.

It's certainly the best shape it's ever been. But that's not to say that it's perfect because there's no such thing. And also because I was certainly not in a great place before, so

well. And do you think, think that people that are healing, you know, like they're on that journey, do they go through that same.

Almost dance where it's like, you have to assess and then kind of fall back into patterns. And do you see that with other, other folks that are in mental health that are going through that journey? Yeah.

And you know, it's, it's going to be a lifelong battle, no matter what we say or do, and those who you look at, who we consider enlightened, or like they have reached the pinnacle, et cetera, et cetera.

It's just something we're going to need to learn and iterate on forever. I mean, we change as individuals, the world around us changes what works for us today. This week is not going to work a year from now. And what works a year from now is not going to work a year from then. And in all of that, there's going to be moments where we stumble.

There's going to be moments where we fall back on old habits that are destructive, or we end up being the toxic one in a relationship. And. I think it's more important than ever that in those times we show ourselves the compassion to accept that we made a mistake or that we, you know, could have done better learn from it and move on.

Uh, cause otherwise we're just going to trap ourselves in a downward spiral. Um,

Yes. Certainly cat cat is the first one and she has no problem calling me out on it when she thinks that I've ever worked at myself. Uh, but even, even folks in our community can tell. I mean, they can feel it when I'm on camera, on Twitch and I'm just out of it. Right. Or some of my closest friends here, and my parents also can just kind of see.

Where my head is most of the time. Um, so I'm grateful, very grateful that they want me to say whether I listened, that's a totally separate thing and I'm working on that for sure. Right. But that other people can help. They are, they're doing everything. They can wait a

minute. Sometimes we don't listen to the people that are trying to help us.

I mean, really

stubborn as blessing and a curse. Right.

Yeah, absolutely. So if you rewind my academic career, I was valedictorian in high school. I graduated Berkeley in three years, went on to law school at Harvard. Right. All great. That's fine. Ooh, fancy, but there's another side of the story that you don't really see in the resume high school. I had stomach aches that were induced by the stress of sat prep.

It makes it harder to socialize. And then at the end of college, I started getting the sensation of gagging as if I'm going to throw up. So I go over to the sink and I'm like, okay, I guess I'm gonna throw like, this is what happens in the movies. Right? People feel sick, they go throw up, nothing comes out and it basically takes over my life.

Six months are spent of just. Getting every medical test procedure done possible at the time, not every single one done, but I had an endoscopy done where I went under anesthesia the whole time. I'm trying to figure out what's going on with my stomach, right? It's my stomach that's causing these issues.

So five years would go by until I finally explored and accepted that this was maybe something that was stress-related and not a purely stomach physiological issue. Once I accepted that it was stress that was inducing the issues. And I learned to manage my stressors. Thankfully. The issues fell away. Uh, but you fast forward into the pandemic and I did not have the anxiety under control at all.

And there was nothing there.

And when you mentioned social anxiety, what does that look like? Um, you know, what is it like both internally and externally, as far as experiencing.

Yeah. You know, it's different for everyone. For me, it was mainly just being very, just overthinking myself a lot in terms of just things I would say, I would just get in my own head about, maybe I should say this, maybe I shouldn't, maybe I should say this, maybe I shouldn't or, oh, did this thing piss somebody off, right.

Gotcha. So did the social anxiety transform into a different type of thing society or did it just become more pronounced as things went along during the pandemic?

Yeah, I think ironically, the social anxiety fell away in my mid twenties, but the anxiety itself very much stayed. And it manifested in these sorts of physical symptoms and just crazy levels of stress and intrusive thinking.

I'm not on the front lines because whatever I was, you know, at the time attorney working behind the desk, but still the isolation is not healthy. And, um, you put all that together and it's a recipe for mental health issues and that's what we got. So.

It's not like you withdrew and didn't pursue to figure out what's going on.

I mean, you went to the doctors and you're like, you know, throwing up feeling like you've got to throw up and get sick. What, what changed that? It was actually like, Hey, this is the problem. This is what I need to address. I mean, like when did things actually come to light that what was at the root of the problem?

And I went back into the, the medical system and I was seeing a GI specialist. I said, okay, here's what's going on? They said, okay, well we can do another endoscopy. We could put you on different medications. What do you wanna do? And I'm sitting there and I'm like, I've been down this road before, like, I know how this is going to end.

They're going to do the test. I'm going to go under anesthesia. And then at the end there he'd be like, yeah, you seem healthy. It's all good. And that was when I really decided along with the support and really folks pushing me, including my parents, uh, to just take the stress idea more seriously and really evaluate if I was actually doing a good job.

So

had it been presented as far as, Hey, could be stress induced. Was that something that people were saying to you before?

This procedure that combination this at the side, there was the suggestion that yeah. You know, and maybe explore stress or whatnot, um, which is good. Right. And I think that's awesome, but, uh, you know, frankly, I would have think I, I would have been. Elated. If someone has having, that'd be like, yeah, I know you have, it's called severe anxiety.

Get over dude. Like let's, you know, like maybe not in those words, so to speak, but, but certainly, you know, a strong nudge in the direction of mental health, as opposed to channeling us forward through the medical system by way of physic physiological, uh, solutions. What's

your thought with those side conversations?

I mean, did, did you see it as having credibility or was it like, yeah, whatever stress isn't going to impact me in this.

Right. Uh, you combine that with their sort of focus on pushing. The physiological base solutions. And I just wasn't really thinking about it. When I left the office, when I left the office, I was like, oh yeah, they said that. But, but now we're doing this for the medication. So that's what I'm going to put my eggs in.

But as far as baskets go.

So in hindsight, looking back, do you, do you think it was just like the high stress level became so normative? It was almost like you couldn't register it. It was expected. This is just everyday life. This is what everybody feels.

Yes. I think my tolerance is totally messed up for it, for sure.

To get rid of all, you know, not get rid of, but manage a lot of intrusive thoughts and like break out of bad habits. And those I had no idea were afflicting me. So I think really it's a combination because I do think that if I had managed my stressors more properly, I would have felt better. But it wouldn't have removed all of these layers of messed up thinking that the anxiety had already entrenched and those were bound to create problems, no matter what in the long-term.

Yeah.

I mean, generally sends a stress fulfillment in life is the first one I always look at, but not just for stress, but mental in general and anxiety in general as well. If you're not feeling fulfilled or happy in general, something's something's off. Right. But on top of that, if you aren't exercising regularly, if you aren't sleeping well, if your fundamentals of mental in general are down, uh, I would be concerned then I would just ask yourself, honestly, Do you ha is there something that's stressing you out?

Let's look at your schedule and your day to day, like what's going on. If, if, if it's stress, it's most likely the case that something down there is going on. Um, and, and I, you know, it's, there's no silver bullet. I would, I would basically challenge you to explore it as much as you can with an open mind, which is not easy, it's easier said than done, but it needs to be done.

It, uh, it began as more of a fleeting level of thinking of, okay.

Maybe as crazy as it sounds like I can leave this job and do something else. I didn't really know what I wanted to do next. I had planned on staying in big law for a long time, at least four to five years make the big bucks as a mid-level associate. Uh, but I'm sitting there like this is not sustainable, so something's gonna have to give and what is going to give, well, let me see what else.

And, um, you know, you fast forward few months and I sit there and I realize quitting may be literally my only going forward option here for what I want out of life right now, which is to work on my mental. And explore what else is out there besides this current state of play, which let's be honest, it's a transaction to earn money.

I put in this much hours, energy time for your firm, your firm pays me X amount of dollars per year. That's it? I mean, but beyond that and I get it, that's very important and money's powerful. All that is true, but was it worth the toll was taking on my mental and holding? Was it holding you back as well?

Just by virtue of how much energy it was taking. Yeah. Um, so it wasn't easy. I felt like at the time it was the only right decision to make for what I wanted

as yours?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I, it was probably three months into the pandemic when I. That our firm and the whole industry was undergoing a deep, deep sense of mental health despair. And I, and I mean, to the level that it, it was almost universally known fact amongst every attorney that everyone was miserable.

That was just, it, it was just, it was just like you picked up the phone and it's like, you know, the other person's visual. They know you're busy. Okay. They'll like, like, let's just like get over this together. And it, it, it, it certainly was not just in my, for my firm. I think actually is my old firm I should say is one of the most progressive by way of culture and like connectedness and transparency.

I've not really want to comment. I'm not in the leadership chain. Uh, but I can tell you, it is not slow down.

Yeah. So when you made the decision, Hey, I'm investing in myself, I'm making a call that, that works out best for me. Like what, what was your path from there? What did you do to say? Yeah, I'm actually going to, you know, not look at the medication. I'll look at the surgery, but I'm going to look at. Something to help me with my mental health.

What did, what did that path look like?

Yeah. So when I decided and came to the conclusion, okay, I like this, this isn't working. I let me get checked this with the middle pandemics were December 20, 20. I essentially turned myself over to mental services and I'm like, you tell me, like I have, clearly I have no idea what I'm doing here.

It's not a fix-it pill. It's a tool to be very clear. Um, but it, for me, it was everything. I literally threw everything at it. I started educating myself on it. I read book. I read articles. I talked to folks who have experienced similar things, uh, and I put in the work that my therapists and I talked about every single week, whatever it was, journaling, deep breathing, meditation, calling people, walks outside, whatever it was.

Uh, I was committed to it. It really is. Like anything else? It's it feels weird calling it a mental health grind, but that's honestly what I call it nowadays. Sometimes you just need to grind on mental for an hour, which ironically means not grind on anything and sitting there meditating, but you know that listen that's.

It's an investment. Um, we're going to stay in that same place. Um, when you were filling out that questionnaire, I mean, were you open or did you hold stuff back or how did you

yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny. Cause I think that we have a tendency to always underestimate. All of the sort of things we are, this, this is the stigma again, right?

Uh, and then I got the diagnosis of severe anxiety and mild depression and I'm like, well-done okay. Now I know what I'm working with. So here we go.

Did your friends and family reacted? They believe it, or they were kind of like, no, this is wrong. We got to go back to the medical side.

No, they, they, I mean, I think to some folks that came.

Somewhat of a surprise, mainly because I think, I think the stigma is so attached to these phrases that they're like, okay, like you're anxious, but like re like it's, it's I think tough to run them, you know, it just sounds so bad, severe, like that sounds severe. I mean, that's like, it sounds magnitudes of difference, like a very bad right.

And once I started acting much more casual about it, because that's personally how I've always felt about it since I found out, um, I think they also realize it's not that big of a deal let's move on. And, um, and that's kind of that at least around me

is that kind of their reaction now is like they see the difference.

And so where they may have been concerned and like naysayers before now they're a hundred percent

behind it, or I think that's right. Also, I think mental health is it's. We have so many ideas that we put under that umbrella. And though a lot of my growth in the past call it year and a half has been from managing the anxiety and learning how to better contextualize my habits and practice them.

So, so yeah, they, they're, they're very supportive and they understand, I think that it's really something, even if they don't, they don't understand it. They have to trust my ability to understand it and my ability to manage it because they're not in my head and I am, so they can't really do anything, but take my word for it.

Yeah. I'm glad people aren't in my head. I'll tell you that, but that'd be a whole nother ride. Um, so as you were getting, you know, the mental health, you know, you're getting counseling, you're doing these activities exercises. Did you see a change in your relationship with like cat, your parents, your friends were, were things, um, shifting at all around.

Right. My ability to actually say, no, I don't want this, or I want this, uh, or, you know, I'm, I'm going to set a boundary to not hang out right now because I don't feel like it. And now I'm going to have more fun with this person when I see them. And the relationship will improve by extension. Um, it all, it all improves across the board.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, I'm glad to hear that. That's usually the response that I hear from most people and what I've experienced as well. Yeah. So you, you had said, you know, like you're being told different things to do you know, that, that, uh, we're helping you along the way. What are like two or three things that you've, you've seen the most change or benefit from?

Yeah. I, I mean, it's, the basics have really done wonders for me. And when I say the basics, I mean the first one is deep breathing. Just like any time I can, even on this podcast earlier when I'm talking, I remember I will take a deep breath.

Because I, at least for me, I have not conditioned myself to breathe properly and I breathe incredibly shallow breaths and it's just not good for my thought processes and oxygenating the rain, et cetera, et cetera. So as often as I can, I'll take as many deep breaths as I can, and it helps ground me and slow my thinking.

And the other, the other aspect is journaling. Um, for me, Being out of touch for so long, it was almost impossible at the beginning to even discern how I felt about what it was so confusing. Uh, I was like, what does this one do? What does this one do? I don't know. Is it sadness? I don't know. You tell me, but there's no one answer, so, okay.

Um, has reading been something that you've done to kind of get new ideas or expand, expand upon your.

Yeah, absolutely. I, um, medium, which I don't know if you're aware or folks who are listening medium is essentially this it's something, a blogging website. Like anyone can publish on it. There's a lot of really good stuff on there.

People it's basically the marketplace right now of competitive ideas in writing one of them I should say. And because of that, and also because it's an algorithm and it's going to learn what you like. You after using it for a little bit, it's the, it's the for you page of written content. And you'll get a lot of really, really good perspective from there that just, you don't really get that level of idea generation from any one book that said, I do love books as well.

That's cool. And so are you publishing to medium, like your experiences and like what you're finding out as well?

Less occasionally that I used to, when I first quit my job, I was publishing pretty often once or twice a week, but I sort of was at the time when I began advocating, that was the first way I was doing it. I was writing, um, I found that it wasn't very effective at reaching people simply because I'm a, nobody on Medium.

And, uh, you know, I'm not going to predict the algorithm. I get it right. Like, I'm new. Like I only did it for two weeks. I'm not going to go super viral or whatever, but in any event, I, uh, I've shifted since then, towards of course, content creation and TikTok and Twitch and more, uh, you know, camera friendly, I suppose, uh, mediums of communication.

Uh, but occasionally I will write on Medium and publish there. Yeah.

Oh, it's gotta be Twitch. I love Twitch too. It's just the most fun Twitch as a creator Twitch as a community. And not really as a platform because like, it could be better.

I won't lie, but as a community building tool and as a creator, it's just the most authentic, real, genuine, and creative tool that I have. Um, you know, it lets me reach my people. Let's my people reach me. There's no censoring. There's no algorithmic sequencing getting in the way. And, uh, of course we can play games.

We do all sorts of stuff. So

yeah, it's definitely a game night fun.

So thank you, my friend for, uh, for, you know, just coming in and being in an encouragement, um, in this space. Um, so for people reaching out to you, what's the best way to connect with you outside of the podcast?

Yeah, we would love any and all folks to join our TikTok community. Join us on viably. We just recently launched community on viably, where we were all working on a mental health together, and we're a team and it's awesome.

Uh, all of the links are in my beacons link, which Mike, I think we'll link down below, but if you want to reach me and my team, you can also email us at team@juliansarafian.com.

Cool. Julian, thank you, my friend. I really appreciate.

You're very welcome. Thank you for having me, Mike. My pleasure.