Archbishop Vigneron joins Fr. Craig and Fr. David to talk about his own vocation story and give advice to those discerning.

(0:03) Fr. Craig welcomes everybody back to the podcast and introduces this episode’s very special guest, Archbishop Vigneron! The three reflect on how their celebrations of the Triduum were this year. They particularly discuss the Chrism Mass this year and how grace-filled it was to be able to celebrate together, in contrast to last year’s celebration.

(4:51) In the monthly Costco update, Fr. David shares that while he was able to get household essentials, he couldn’t get any new snacks for the house because he was called away to do an emergency anointing, and Fr. Craig shares experiences of being called for anointings as well. Archbishop reflects on leading the Anointing of the Sick on pilgrimages in Lourdes.

(13:42) Archbishop Vigneron tells his vocation story. He talks about his upbringing in Anchorville attending Immaculate Conception, and his attraction to the things of Christ from even the third grade.

(17:04) Archbishop reflects on the most challenging time in his vocation journey in 1968, when all the unrest in the nation was causing many of his brothers to leave the seminary — and causing him to reflect on his calling as well.

(24:09) Fr. David reflects on Archbishop’s earlier comment on how he understood the priesthood at each point of his life, and Fr. Craig asks Archbishop what signs he received on his vocation journey. Archbishop talks about the “a-ha moments” he experienced throughout his life.

(30:57) Fr. Craig asks what prayer life should look like for a man discerning the priesthood, and Archbishop emphasizes the importance of periods of quiet and presence in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

(35:26) Archbishop then gives advice of things to avoid when discerning. He gives the examples of bargaining with God, asking the big question right at the beginning, and overlooking attraction to the priesthood.

(41:25) Archbishop shares some of what he remembers from his ordination and first year as a priest, and what it was like when he received the news of being elevated to a bishop.

(48:00) Fr. David gives an overview of the Call to Orders and Scrutiny process that seminarians go through when moving into the transitional diaconate and priesthood, and Fr. Craig shares what he remembers from his scrutinies.

(57:04) Archbishop offers some final thoughts on discerning the priesthood and closes in a blessing.

Fr. Craig:

Welcome everybody to another edition of Men of the Hearts podcast. Today we have on a very special guest and it's our first guest of this show. I'm so excited. Father David, can you ask me how excited I am?

Fr. David:

How excited are you, Father Craig?

Fr. Craig:

SO excited.

Fr. David:

Me too. Me too. This is a great opportunity for us here at Men of the Hearts.

Fr. Craig:

So we have the man, the myth and the legend here today, the Archbishop of Detroit. Archbishop Allen Vigneron. Thank you for being on our show. How are you doing today?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Doing fine, Fr. Craig and David, Fr. David, good to be with you both. Hope you recovered from the strain of that sacred Triduum.

Fr. Craig:

Oh, we have, it was a little bit easier for me not being a pastor this year, so it was a little bit different for me. So I got to kind of really enter into the Mass in a different way. So it was very special for me. Yeah, Father David, how was the Triduum for you?

Fr. David:

You know, it was, it was probably my favorite part of being a priest so far. It was my first time being through the Triduum as a priest and well, it was exhausting, but it was really just, it was beautiful to — you pray through it differently as a priest. And just to experience that, I just felt like so many times thinking, yeah, this is why I'm a priest, you know? To do this. This is the heart of our faith right here. So it was beautiful to just enter into — beautiful, to see it here at Divine Child. The liturgies were so beautiful. Just kind of drew you into that mystery.

Fr. Craig:

So, yeah, and just to let our listeners know that Father David has a really beautiful voice, he sang the Exsultet. And it was wonderful, really prayerful and really well done. So good job on you. Archbishop, would you want to share maybe some blessings that you received over the last month or through the sacred Triduum?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Well, let's — we can talk about the Triduum especially. I was particularly moved this year by the Chrism Mass. The Chrism Mass every year plus priesthood ordinations are really the highlight of my liturgical year. And what made this year particularly a grace was the contrast to last Holy Thursday when there were 10 of us altogether, even counting the musicians and servers in the church for the Chrism Mass. And we observed social distancing on Thursday morning, but with that the cathedral was at maximum and there were so many priests. It was a great blessing, really brought tears to my eyes to see how God is bringing us through this difficult time and how we were able to be back together, especially with my brother priests recently.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah, it was wonderful to see and wonderful to be there with everybody and to see the priests that, you know, often we don't get to see during these busy times. I just remember last year, I remember laying down on the couch and watching the Chrism Mass. Is it was definitely very different than being there and, you know, we're an incarnational people and we're meant to be with each other. And especially at that Mass to renew my promises to the priesthood and everything that goes along with it is just really special. That's a very special day for me. And I always renew my consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary on that day as well. Father David, this was your first time. What did you think about the Chrism Mass?

Fr. David:

It was beautiful. It really struck me being there. Just all the priests, just like the brotherhood there and kind of just the shared mission. I don't know, I just, I remember I was sitting there and just kind of looking at all of these other priests, you know, my brothers now — I think I've shared this before, but you know, with seven sisters, I prayed for a long time for a brother. Now, the Lord has blessed me with hundreds of them in the priesthood. There was just a sense of brotherhood and I don't know, I just felt like I'm looking at like, this is, this is a group of men who have been entrusted in a special way with bringing Jesus to others. And it was just like, I felt that I hadn't really, you know, as a priest been to a big gathering apart from my ordination, you know, of priests like that. And there was just, it was — there was really a powerful sense of, I don't know how else to say it. Just brotherhood, you know.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. Belonging. Like I mentioned before about like, after the Archbishop laid his hands on my head, all the different priests at the ordination lay their hands on our heads, and it was like the first time in my life, even though I have some really good friends and everything that I just felt like I belong. That God was calling me here and this was the place where I was supposed to be. And it just was overwhelming sense of peace and joy that I belong to this brotherhood.

Fr. Craig:

Archbishop, we like to do a little bit banter at the beginning, we like to ask father David, what he bought at Costco for the house here at Divine Child. But he didn't buy anything this month. Why is that Father David?

Fr. David:

Well, I didn't quite, I didn't quite get to the snack aisle. At least I got a few of the essentials. Archbishop I have to tell you, I do. I love Costco. I've been converted since I got here. I never shopped at Costco before, but the parish has a membership and so I've really enjoyed going to Costco and just, you know, trying something new every so often. But actually this month I was at Costco and got a call for an emergency anointing.

Fr. Craig:

Your first emergency anointing.

Fr. David:

This was my first one. Yes. And so I ended up, I checked out right away and got there. Actually it was, it was kind of a sad instance. I got there too late. The person had already passed. And so we still, we did the prayers for the dead and the family was very happy. I was there, but it was one those instances where I'm glad I went and I'm glad I went right away. You know, there was for a moment kind of that thought in my mind, well, could I just finish my shopping trip first? But I'm really glad I went right away. I don't know that I could've lived with myself knowing that, you know, in hindsight the person did pass away, you know, I'm glad I just, I know that I did everything I could to get there.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. That's, that's really important. That's happened to me a couple of times as well. You know, we're on call all the time, especially, you know, as a pastor, you know, and if you're the only one at the parish, you can get called at all hours of the night. And on holidays, I remember Thanksgiving, I got to my brother's house and immediately I had to drive all the way back because of anointing. And it's just, it's a blessing to be in people's lives in that. But you know, sometimes unfortunately people call too late. I remember I had an experience — I used it as an excuse to speed really, really fast. You know, I got a call, an anointing. I jumped in my car right away. I was like flying, doing 90. I'm sorry, Archbishop. I wasn't supposed to be doing that, but I got there. And unfortunately you know, the person already passed as well, but I got to be there with the family and pray with them and to say a number of different prayers. And it still was a powerful experience for them to be there for them. And to be in the midst of that sorrow. Archbishop, have you had any experiences like that with anointings?

Archbishop Vigneron:

I don't know that I've ever been called in an emergency situation. I have had powerful experiences with the anointing of the sick. I get to go — I've been a lot of years to the spring pilgrimage, that the Order of Malta makes to Lourdes, and the duty that, most of the years that's fallen to me to lead, is the anointing of the sick. And that for me is very powerful, has been a very powerful experience at Lourdes to celebrate this sacrament Our Lord gave us for the particular care of the sick. I think so much of the incarnation with the consequence being that God has hands and God can touch people. And we don't — it's not just a metaphor, but he really does touch. And the anointing of the sick, the sacrament is a way to continue that touch. That's one way God uses my hands.

Speaker 3:

Jesus makes my hands, his hands. And there near the grotto where Our Lady brought the good news of Jesus's closeness to the sick, it was — it has been powerful experience for me. Like you're both talking about being instruments at this significant period in people's lives. This moment whereby Christ draws so very close. I think that's, that's the experience that the Holy Spirit invites me to share with all of you.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah, have you seen any healings at Lourdes? Have you —.

Archbishop Vigneron:

I've seen a lot of healings, but not any cures. That's a little saying I learned from a really devout woman, a Dame of Malta, that there's healing for everybody. There are a few cures and this actually is a woman whose daughter who was cured of cancer. But what's interesting about that is her life has been very difficult. It's not that the healing she was given sort of turned everything into the magic kingdom. Their own discernment is that the healing was a way to strengthen her for a life of self offer. But I have seen tremendous healing at Lourdes. People who were so angry with God sometimes for their own illness. Very powerfully for me, was a mother who was very angry with God, for the illness of her son, her grade school-aged son, and the pilgrimage, the fellowship of all of us with her, really the Holy Spirit broke through the void of bitterness. So, yeah, I've seen a lot of healing. Yeah.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. That's beautiful to have that healing take place. I went to Lourdes and I wasn't even thinking about the priesthood at the time. I was just Eurail pass, traveling to different cities, looking at all the different art museums, as you know, I'm an artist, but I stopped at Lourdes, and I knew that I was supposed to drink some type of water somewhere, and I drank something out of a fountain and got so incredibly sick. It definitely was not the water. I should have been drinking at the time, but it was a special moment. And I went during an off day and I had the whole hotel to myself. Actually, the patrons were like, we're going to let the guard go home. Here's the key to the hotel. Just make sure you lock up if you leave. It was such a weird and exciting experience.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. And just to share one, one more anointing story really quickly. I just think it was something so beautiful that I got to see once. And it's, it's a way in which I can justify me having a big four by four truck, V8. It was a ton of snow on the ground and a priest that was supposed to go and do an anointing couldn't make it out in the snow and the family called me up. We had this huge event happening at the parish at the time, but I was able to kind of sneak away, took a little while to get there into the snow. And when I got there, there was a hospital bed in the middle living room there, and there were around 30 people there, like all of the family was there, all the brothers and sisters gathered around the father, all the different cousins.

Fr. Craig:

And it was just, it was really powerful. And I started saying all of the different prayers, I did the anointing and I did the episodic pardon, and then I just said "In the name of the Father and of the Son of the Holy Spirit," and at that moment you heard [exhale], and he just died right there. Like he was waiting to receive that gift. He was waiting for the sacrament. And I think God's faithful to those who wait for that. And just recognizing that sometimes when we go and do these anointings and we go into people's lives, that there's so much more going on spiritually that we can't see. And it just was a beautiful moment for me to see that this man was hanging on, waiting to receive that final gift of the final sacraments to take him home. So Archbishop, I know we talked a little bit around of different priestly things that we've done, including anointing of the sick, but you want to share with us a little bit of your vocation story? I don't know how far back you want to go. You can start back to wherever you really want. You know, just share some of the highlights with us. Hmm.

Archbishop Vigneron:

Well, I hope neither you nor Father David, or the listeners won't be disappointed, but my vocation story is very dull and completely lacks drama.

Fr. Craig:

Well, I was telling Father David that I figured, like, you and Father David kind of have like the same background and I don't know why I have it in my head that you like grew up on a ranch or a farm. Did you grow up on a ranch or a farm?

Archbishop Vigneron:

When I was a little boy, we lived with my grandma and she kept three cows, she did a little bit of widow farming. But so it was a rural parish, Anchorville Immaculate Conception. I went to the Catholic grade school, it was a three room school, very small operation. But I just was always attracted to the things of Christ, the particularly the Eucharist. And very early, I think I was in the third grade, I think the sister who managed the altar servers must've recognized this in me. And she got a dispensation, let me become a server a year early. And it was always about the Holy Eucharist. And I wanted to do what the priest did. And I had the inclinations of an eight year old, nine year old. And at every stage in my life, my attraction was what was appropriate to my age at time. When when I was 14, in the eighth grade, we had the system then that you could go off to the high school seminary, which I decided to do, because that's what you did if you were interested in becoming a priest.

Fr. Craig:

Did you live at the seminary at the time?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Five days a week. We didn't board over the weekend. We'd go home Friday afternoon, came back Sunday night. I did not like that. I really, I missed my mom. I missed my home.

Fr. Craig:

Sure. You missed your cows.

New Speaker:

Fr. Craig:

I wasn't even alive yet. [laughs]

Archbishop Vigneron:

Even you, Craig?

Fr. Craig:

'77, I was born.

Archbishop Vigneron:

Archbishop Vigneron:

I was [inaudible] far away to go to sleep, get my rest. And I looked at myself and I said, that's not the person I want to be. I don't want — the Lord needs me to stay with him. I will do my best to endure, to keep watch. And I may not, it's not the moment I decided definitively to be a priest — that was really somewhere in second or third theology — but it was the moment I decided to stay when I was most challenged at that point. And I look back on it from what I've seen with marriage prep, this is very common experience in engaged couples. They look back on their history. There is a time when the relationship seems to be unraveling and they can make the choice to reconcile and build up the relationship, or they can make the choice to walk away. And I don't know that they would see that at that moment when they choose to reconcile that they really decided to get married, but it's a decision that leads to another decision. And that really is for me, the most important part of my own vocational discernment. I've made a choice to stay. Because I made that choice, I was able to make the definitive choice to ask the bishop to ordain me a priest.

Fr. Craig:

I think every priest has that kind of experience in the seminary. You're maybe thinking, well, if the right woman comes along or, you know, you just never know, like, and then there's some type of difficulty in our lives. And then you're like, Oh, I'm tempted to leave. And I think it's well put, like, you know, are we going to sleep in the garden or are we going to keep watch with the Lord? And if the Lord really wants us to move in this direction, then the Lord is going to give us the grace to continue on. Kind of talking about the different types of suffering. We can suffer at our own hands because we're doing what is wrong or not doing God's will, much like the prophet Jonah who walked away from the Lord and suffered for it. But to accept what the Lord offers us, he'll always give us the grace to move forward. So obviously the Lord gave you the grace to continue on. So what happened from there in the choir loft?

Archbishop Vigneron:

[laughs] I went to bed. And I didn't pack, you know? Just kept moving ahead. You know, Father Craig, you mentioned in helping me get ready for this being able to offer some advice. I think a very important thing is don't drive ahead of your headlights. If a person is discerning, if a person wants to know God's will ask God, what's your will today? And what's the light I have today. I mean, it might be a light for what I'm supposed to do the next week, but what's the light I have today? And follow that light, and when you get to where that light takes, you you'll have new lights, different lights. You'll get — the horizon will move. And I think that's one of the most important things of discernment.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. I think so many of us want to know exactly what the Lord wants, a hundred percent certitude and no ifs, ands, and buts about it. This is what I'm called to do. And I'm going to be having my 30 year plan already set up before me. And that's not the way that the Lord works. We have to trust each and every single day, faith, hope and love. Right?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Right. And we have to be faithful to the light. If we pray for the light, we can be confident we will be given light, that's prayer that is always heard. But we don't want to waste the light either. If God gives it, we have to respond. It's like, it's a covenant.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. It's like, someone's sitting at, you know, the street light and then it turns green and they're just kind of sitting there. It can 'cause a whole lot of problems, not only for them, but for everybody else around, too.

Archbishop Vigneron:

I don't want to take over, but I saw Fr. Pellican has something really important to say.

Fr. Craig:

Oh, please go ahead, Father Pellican.

Fr. David:

No, I just wanted to comment on one thing you said, Archbishop, about, I think you said, you said something like at every moment, your understanding of your vocation and the priesthood was appropriate to that time. And I just, that resonated with me, too, of just that this understanding of what the priesthood was, even as the Lord was calling kind of grew. And if I'm honest is still growing, you know? I remember cause I entered seminary, not obviously not in high school, but right after high school. And one thing I heard

Archbishop Vigneron:

Right, a late vocation, Father!

Fr. David:

[laughs] A late vocation? Is that what said?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Fr. David:

Wow. Wow, times change, you know, so what you did Archbishop would have been called a true-lifer, right? But but now I guess what I did is called being a lifer, but it's not quite the same. [laughs]

Archbishop Vigneron:

But I interrupted you. You were going to say —

Fr. David:

Not at all. I just, I know entering seminary, even after high school, a lot of people were telling me that I should go to college first, you know? And I think that's a common path for people now. And one of the reasons I heard was, well, right after high school, you can't possibly know what you're getting into and what you're giving up. And in a sense, that was absolutely true. I had no idea what the Lord was going to ask me to give up. I had no idea what I was getting into. But I guess what I came to was that, that wasn't so important. It was more of like, you're saying, just asking the Lord for that light and then following it. And even if you don't know what he's leading you to, if you know, it's him you just, you go all in, you know? You follow it. Yeah.

Fr. Craig:

Archbishop, last week we talked about signs, or last month we talked about signs. And, you know, as we're talking about lights that the Lord leads us. Did you ever ask for a sign from the Lord? Did you ever receive some type of grace where it was like, this is really sure that I should be going in this direction?

Archbishop Vigneron:

I think there are — there's a range of signs. You know, the very normal ones that intelligent people can use, make their decisions. Then there are moments of light, I think, where it's an aha moment. Those are the most powerful things that I had, were some aha moments. Where I recognize that as beautiful as marriage is, I would feel that I have not followed God's light, accepted the happiness he wanted for me, if I didn't find it in the priesthood, in that particular, very particular experience, that aha moment. But you know, people make decisions about especially faith-filled men, you know, my observation is they make decisions about the marriage and who they're going to marry based on a form of discernment. And it's the same sort of process. This is what God wants. Will this bring me to be the man God wants to be? Will I be able to fulfill and make the contribution that God wants me to be able to offer as a spouse and a parent? Those are the same questions. I think [inaudible] about the priesthood, because priesthood is about the spousal love, and it's about being a father, spiritual father, but it's the fulfillment of what St. John Paul calls the language of masculinity, the language of a man's body.

Fr. Craig:

So you kind of jumped into it a little bit that I wanted to ask you. You know —

Archbishop Vigneron:

I'm sorry if I've been pushing the envelope here.

Fr. Craig:

Oh no, that's great. I like it. I like it. I think, you know, when I'm talking to a young man it seems like there's a lot of anxiety when you're asking these types of questions, whether it be for marriage or a vocation to the priesthood, and there's just things that scare them. There's a fear there, and we never want to give into fear, right? You know, perfect love casts out all fear, but, you know, there are things that could scare us. And was there anything, as you were deciding whether or not God called you to the priesthood that you were scared about, or that you had a fear, or there was a great anxiety that, you know, somehow you overcame by God's grace?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Well, it's the sense of my own limitations and being able to be an effective priest. Hmm.

Fr. Craig:

I remember you saying that you hated the movie, the Bells of St. Mary

Archbishop Vigneron:

That's right. That's where I was going with this. I knew I couldn't be Bing, Crosby. I wasn't going to be that kind of a priest. I don't have those gifts, charm.

New Speaker:

Right, like he did absolutely nothing wrong.

New Speaker:

Yeah. And I'm very opposite of cool. And I thought, well, if the only way to be a good priest is to be cool that's not going to work for me. So I basically was coming to accept my own limitations.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. Yeah. Was there anybody in your life that really had a strong effect on your vocation? Was there a priest or a religious sister or your parents or anybody that really kind of helped you through this?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Well, as I look back on it of course my parents are most important, but at a very fundamental way, in a way I don't know that I always recognized until I began to be more mature, but a person who was very much a particular catalyst in my own life was Sister Jane Francis Miller. Her sister was the principal at our little grade school. And she's the one who bent the rules and let me serve her. And she was always very encouraging. She was a real vocation recruiter. For example, in my eighth grade class, there were eight boys and eight girls, and three of us tried the seminary and that was because of her aggressive recruitment. There were three boys in the class ahead of me to try the seminary. Two in the class after me tried. So, and actually Monsignor Pat Halfpenny shares this love for the late Sister Jean Francis,

Fr. Craig:

Pray for those people that have influenced us, pray for those priests and religious sisters that really had an influence on our lives. You know, so, you know, we're looking at, you know, again at our vocation story. And sometimes as we talked a little bit about fears and we talked about signs, we also talk about just the grace of living in the moment and, you know, can you explain maybe what your prayer life was like during the time, or maybe 'cause your situation was a little bit different actually going to high school seminary, what advice would you give to a young man who maybe is in high school or just getting out of college of, you know, what kind of prayer life would be appropriate for a man discerning the priesthood?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Well I think extended periods of quiet are indispensable from what I — when I talked to [inaudible] at the seminary, they tell me that this is what allowed them to have breakthroughs in their own discernment was to be able to put really a significant period of time aside, be in the Lord's presence, particularly in this presence in the Most Blessed Sacrament. For one younger priest whose work I admire greatly said that it was that Eucharistic prayer, prayer of Adoration, that he finally was able to get over his fears. So I think the commitment, if a person is serious about the question, that to make a commitment, to be regular in periods of quiet, if possible in the presence of the Most Blessed Sacrament. Now, how one prays there, and that could be Lectio Divina, could be — there are lots of ways. People need to respond the way the Holy Spirit gives them taste to pray. And they can talk to their parish priest and get some coaching if they need that.

Archbishop Vigneron:

But I think that's the most important thing. Then, to go into it with honesty. You can't go into that prayer negotiating,. God doesn't accept negotiation. If you're going to go into his presence, you have to offer him everything. Or it just won't be acceptable. He wants everything. And so go into the prayer, say, I'm here, tell me what you want, and I will do my best to respond with your help. I think one prays that way, he'll get the light he needs. And very well, the light could be that the man is not called to the priesthood. And we're all devoted to the will of God. The man isn't — we all need priests, but I don't need a man to be a priest that's not called to it. That's my total commitment that I'll go where the light takes me. Where your light takes me.

Fr. Craig:

Okay. You had some interesting assignments — you were rector of Sacred Heart for a number of years. So maybe if you could speak to that? You know, what are the characteristics of a man to be, you know, entered into the seminary, to become a seminarian? What were you looking for as rector?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Well, there are the things that the Church says are minimal requirements, sort of the basic requirements: a life of discipleship, basically morally sound life, habits of prayer, cooperative, willing to enter into and be generous and responding to the program of priestly formation. And the kind of average intelligence that it would take to get through a basic university llife. These are the baselines. And then an interest, you know, I care enough about the possibility being a priest that I'm willing to try. Those are the things one looks for.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. Well, I'm one of those average seminarians when it comes to intelligence. However, our Father David Pellican here made it all through seminary with all A's. I think we've mentioned that before. I like to tease him about that, overachiever with extra electives as well in Greek and Hebrew. So high intelligence there. So we did talk a little bit about like, you know, things that we shouldn't be doing. We shouldn't be bargaining with God, bargaining with God about figuring out what God is calling us to do. What advice would you give to a man of what not to do when discerning a vocation to the priesthood?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Well, like I said, don't bargain with God. Two, don't ask the biggest question right at beginning. The question is not should I, am I called to be a priest? An intermediate question, is that my — so is this such a likely or real possibility for me that I need to try it, try it? I think that's a very important way rather than go for the big question. Right at the beginning. And a very important point is, if a man is attracted to the priest to pay attention to that, don't overlook that don't push it aside, because even if a man isn't called to the priesthood, the fact that he's attracted to it is a grace from God. And it means something. You may be attracted to the priesthood but called to marriage, but he's going to be a better husband and a father if he pays attention to this attraction to the priesthood, because the things that are at work in him that make the priesthood attractive are the graces and gifts that will make him a saint as a husband.

Fr. Craig:

You know, and it's a relationship, as you said, too. I mean, it's like dating a woman. On the first date you don't ask her to marry you. Or most times that doesn't happen, right? You know, you don't start talking about how many children you're going to have and where you're going to live and if you're going to buy the farm and have a couple of cows and chickens and things like that.

Archbishop Vigneron:

[laughs] I mean, I have no experience in this path, but I suspect that's a deal breaker. If a man goes off on that. The other thing, you know, Father, about what not to do: don't keep it all in your head. Talk to someone. You know, you don't need to talk to everybody. That's not always very helpful, but talk to a good friend, talk to your parish priest. Because oftentimes when we're trying to make decisions, we chase our own tails if we just keep it all inside our head. And even just articulating this out to somebody else, they can bring light to it. Plus, simply speaking is a way for the Holy Spirit to intensify the light.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah, I mean, I think that's what therapy is all about sometimes too, is when you're just talking to another person, sometimes the problems get solved or you get greater understanding. And talking to someone that you really love, especially if it's a good friend or a parent or a brother or a sister and asking them, you know, "I've been thinking about this, what do you think," can be a great grace to help you along. We don't have to do this alone. You know, God gives us people to walk along with us and don't be afraid to talk to other people about it. You know, when we hold it in, then it just keeps on going around and around and around and around. And then you get nowhere, right? We have to, we have to act, we have to do something sort of like if you're called to get married, you know, you have to start dating. You're not going to get married if you don't date anybody. And if you feel you're called to the priesthood, you got to start discerning, you got to do something or will never happen. So very wise words, wise words there.

Archbishop Vigneron:

Father Pellican, too, Bishop Mengling, up in, the retired Bishop up in Lansing, he often observed that it can be very difficult in this time for young men to sort of get off the dime and take the risk that comes from going down path B instead of path A. That, I don't — does that make sense to you? That it's hard sometimes to get off of ground zero today because there's so many choices.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. You know, I would often say that to, you know, people, if you go somewhere and there's too many choices, it's just hard to make a choice. And there's so much offered to people and you want to keep your options open. But if that happens, then you're never going to go anywhere. Your options are just always going to be open and it's never going to crystallize and become something, I think. You know, that's why we call, you know, the podcast, Men of the Hearts, that's our tagline for the priesthood is because we need manly men. We need men with the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ and the help of the Immaculate Heart of Mary to say yes, to sacrifice, to be bold, to take up the challenge. It's almost like when the Marines are like, "be all you can be," you know, do something, you know, we're calling men to the challenge.

Fr. Craig:

We need you to be holy men of God. And to say yes, to this vocation of yours. Will it be hard? Yes. Is it going to be difficult? Yes. But God's grace will overcome it and God's grace will help you be the man that God is calling you to be. And that's where you will find joy. That is where you will find fulfillment. That is where you will find happiness, by living up to your potential, not trying to run away from it. So if you are afraid of sacrificing for the Lord don't be. Ask for that courage, ask for that grace, be the man that God is calling you to be, you will not regret it. You will not regret it. Archbishop, you know, we talked a little bit about, as you, as you moved on through seminary what was your ordination like? Do you remember? Do you remember the graces of that day? Do you remember the graces of your first year as a priest?

Archbishop Vigneron:

You know, that's a long time ago. I remember some of the small details about the ordination. At the time I was a priest, we were urged to be ordained either in our home parish or in the parish where we serve as deacon interns and to be ordained individually. The late Monsignor Baldwin had this sense that that might be a way to attract men to the seminary. So I was ordained at St. Clement Church in Romeo, where I had been a deacon for a year. And I do remember the day being beautiful. And I remember the grace of all the people who made so many sacrifices to come and be part of that with me. Those are the most important members that I still carry. From my first year as a priest I was really blessed to have a wonderful parish priest as my pastor, Father Dan [inaudible], who is about 92 right now feeble, but still very much a man of the Lord. He lives with his sister Monroe in his own hometown. And Father treated me very much like a colleague, a brother. And let me do a lot of things that I thought were useful for the parish and seemed to find joy in what I contributed to. It was a great year. We had a wonderful school, Bishop Bradley in Kalamazoo's sister, as a matter of fact, was the principal in our school.

Archbishop Vigneron:

She was really a fine person. And so I enjoyed very much going into the school. We had about 800 children, a grade school at time. So those were very much joys I've had.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. You want to speak a little bit about, like, I don't know if you discern this. I mean, it's a calling from God, you know, to be ordained a bishop afterwards. I mean, did you have a choice when you got the call of like, I don't think I should be a bishop or, you know, how does that work? Do you want to explain a little bit about that?

Archbishop Vigneron:

I think you have the same kind of choice that you had, Father, when I asked you if you'd be the vocation director. When you make a commitment — I mean, part of being a priest, is you make a commitment to this life and you make a commitment, not just to what you see, but to wherever the path will take you. And one receives — a man, a priest receives a message that the Holy Father thinks that you should be a bishop. He would like you to do this. And I think the choice you — that's the right way to think about it is, is there a reason for me that I know of that this is really going to be distracting? If I know that then the man shouldn't say no, but I think the question is the Church thinks, the Pope thinks this is the way for me to be a good priest. And if I can do it, I should do it. No matter what the challenges might come from. I mean, my decision to accept the nomination from the Holy Father was a decision to accept what the Church told me she needs from me as well.

Fr. David:

Archbishop, we're blessed that you did say yes in this diocese. And one of the things that strikes me about your ministry as a Bishop is that you really do — vocations are important to you, you know, on encouraging them in many ways. I don't know if you'd remember this story, but a classmate of mine, Father Colin Fricke, he tells a story about you and you had a big impact on his vocation actually, when he was Mr. Frick teaching teaching school. And you just,

Archbishop Vigneron:

In Wyandotte, he was teaching mathematics at Mount Carmel High School.

Fr. David:

That's right. And I believe you just took some time once to talk to him and tell him that you thought he'd be a good priest and ask him if he had ever considered that. And I think that really impacted him, that you as the Bishop would take that time and just invite him, you know? So I know you take that very seriously. What do you see your role in promoting vocations, as the Bishop?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Well, to do that sort of thing, when it falls to me, when I have the opportunity. With COVID I haven't been able to do it, but I try to get to about six high schools a year, spend the day there, and I'm make dealing with a discernment group something I try to do with every high school. I think, so in an organized way, in a way that God, Providence put somebody in my path, I tried to be aware of vocations. I think the most important thing I can do is support you brother priests in your work as vocation recruiters.

Fr. Craig:

I was talking to another priest and he was explaining to me, he's like, well, I need to get at least two guys to become a priest, to realize their vocation, because if I go then to need to replace me, and I think that's just a good thing to have on our mind, that we should have people replacing us for the new generation to take care, the sacramental Church, the ministerial priesthood. You know, we kind of skipped over it, but I think it was really interesting, and maybe Father David, since you're so intellectual and can explain things to us before we're ordained, we go through something called a call to orders and the scrutinies. You want to explain what that's all about?

Fr. David:

Hmm. Well, I mean, Archbishop might might be able to explain it better than I, but —

Archbishop Vigneron:

Oh no, I defer to you. I didn't get all A's.

Fr. David:

Well, it is true that you know, Archbishop, as the Bishop, you really do oversee all vocations in the diocese. And really anyone who gets ordained is called to orders by the Archbishop. And so it becomes, it's kind of a formal step in the process of discernment and moving towards the priesthood that each of us, we write a letter to the arch Bishop asking him to call us to orders, to call us to the diaconate and then to the priesthood. And ultimately we only we only move forward if we get that letter from Archbishop, as, you know, Father Craig, you and I both did calling us to orders. And you know, it's a very formal process, but it's also, you know, you talked about confirmations as you're going along that you are called, it's a real confirmation. And a reminder that, I don't know, for me, it was a reminder that this isn't just something like I choose, but it's something that I'm called to, right? It's a vocation, a calling. And that came, you know, obviously from Jesus, but in a very real sense through the Archbishop, the one who called me and who incidentally ordained me a priest. So.

Fr. Craig:

And he questions you, too. He gives you a scrutiny. You want to explain scrutiny?

Fr. David:

The scrutiny. Well, you know, I remember my scrutiny very well. It was pretty recent here. I remember being very nervous going into it. Archbishop meets with each of us individually and, you know, I remember being nervous. There was really nothing to be nervous about. Archbishop was very, he's very kind. But he sat down and met with me and just, well, first I think he explained to me a little bit about, you know, the priesthood, what his vision of the priesthood, especially in the archdiocese and for me was. He included stuff like, you know, just very, like, important basics of like, you know, you're expected to pray each day, you know, and offer Mass, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass each day. And I remember you emphasizing, Archbishop, that that was really like the most important thing that I could do as a priest. You know, it was offer Mass. You also asked some questions, just making sure that I realized this was a permanent commitment.

Fr. David:

You know, this was a laying down of my life and that it wasn't just something to enter into lightly, you know? So yeah, it was it was a beautiful, beautiful time, just one-on-one with you, Archbishop, which I know you're a busy man. It doesn't happen super often. But just to hear a little bit of your vision of what you were calling me to and hoping that I would live out in my ministry. So.

Fr. Craig:

Archbishop, do you always ask the same questions or it just kind of comes random or what? 'Cause I remember my questions and they were kind of weird actually, I thought.

Archbishop Vigneron:

I have two sets of scrutiny questions. Because I do a scrutiny for diaconate and a scrutiny for the priests. And the decision I make is actually — people might be surprised — the decision I make for the diaconate is the more significant one. That's one where I call the man to Holy Orders. And I cannot call the seminarian to the diaconate if I am not already willing to call him to the priesthood. The presumption is if I call them to the diaconate, I am going to call him to the priesthood. So I have two sets of questions and I do have them sketched out, but it's not like I do just the checklist. I have them in front of me as a guide for the conversation.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. That was for me, at least even just building up to the diaconate and saying yes to the Lord was, was more impactful than leading up to priesthood because of what you're saying right there. The questions that you asked me, I mean, were standard questions I think of, will you say Mass each day? Of course. Will you pray? And you did ask me if I would go to all priest funerals, and I've tried to honor that as much as I can if I'm around. But then you gave me this like weird softball question almost felt like Monty Python at the bridge was like, what's your favorite color? It wasn't my favorite color. But you, you asked you like, is Jesus, God. And I'm like, yeah, of course, Jesus is God. But then I remember listening to you on your other podcast, Eyes on Jesus, you know, little plug in their Eyes on Jesus — listen to that podcast, Eyes on Jesus. I'm sorry, Eyes on Jesus. And you explained that that was very difficult for you to, to recognize in, was it in high school that what did it mean — college — that Jesus was God? You want to explain a little bit about that?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Well, I mean, it's really about —for me personally, my faith journey was not about whether or not I was going to be an atheist, but whether or not I would recognize and acknowledge that God had become a man and used the ordinary things of creation to communicate his own presence. That was really my — it was about the sacraments, certainly about the Church as well, but foundational point it's about Jesus. Who is Jesus? It's Jesus's question to Peter: who do you say that I am? And I ask the question, that is a question I ask every man who comes petitioning for the diaconate, because it's not about a whole list of do's and don'ts. That is the most important question. Father David was talking about the call. And part of my being the sacrament of the Lord Jesus is to make real in the lives of men, the call, "come follow me." And also to make real in your lives, who do you say that Jesus is? And you have to have that right. Or none of the other stuff is really going to work.

Fr. Craig:

I've come to realize it was more profound question than just my favorite color. Well, to kind of end on a lighter note Father David did mention something that I would've never expected of you. You're an avid horseback rider.

Archbishop Vigneron:

I have, when I was a college seminarian, I worked at Camp Sancta Maria up near Gaylord, which is actually founded by a man named Monsignor Chalk, Maurice Chalk, who during the Depression was pastor at St. Mary's in Royal Oak. And he started this camp initially for his altar servers as a way to give them some treat in the summer. When I was a seminarian, staff at this camp was all seminarians and I enjoyed being there very much. And horseback riding is one of the programs at the camp. And I set my mind to become an instructor in western riding. And I did finally achieve that skill. And I have, for some years I had the scar of my saddle sore, but I my second summer, I was able to be an instructor, a riding instructor for beginners, and I enjoyed that. I'm very proud of that achievement.

Fr. Craig:

That's awesome. I wouldn't have thought that. Do you wear a cowboy hat and everything when you're riding or—?

Archbishop Vigneron:

[laughs] No, and I didn't even have cowboy boots. No,

Fr. David:

Not necessary. Well, Archbishop I remember a summer, not too long ago, I was also working at camp and you came up for a brief visit and you got right back up on one of those horses and you stayed on, leading some of the campers around for about an hour and a half. And you weren't just walking either. You got some trotting and even some cantering in there. So you haven't forgotten.

Speaker 3:

Thank you, Father. I appreciate that.

Fr. Craig:

Well, Archbishop, we want to give you the last word. Is there anything that you want to tell men who are discerning the priesthood? Any advice, any blessing or anything that you just want to offer to them right now? In your chance in this podcast,

Archbishop Vigneron:

I would, if anybody has even a thought about the priesthood, which I presume might be one of the motives to be listening in. If there's, anything going on, that's a grace, treasure it. They may not know what it means, but it will, if they nurture it, it will blossom into something wonderful in their lives may not blossom into the priesthood. But I would say the simple message, thank God ahead of time for this grace.

Fr. Craig:

Well thank you Archbishop for taking the time to be with father David and I, it was a pleasure to hear a little bit about your vocation story, answer some of our odd questions, banter back a little bit back and forth. So it's just been a wonderful, a pleasure to have you on the show and all that you do for the archdiocese, just want to thank you as one of your priests, of taking care of us and leading us forward.

Fr. David:

Yes. Thank you very much for being here with us today.

Fr. Craig:

Thank you. Thank you for your prayers. You want to offer us a final blessing?

Archbishop Vigneron:

Yes, Lord God. We give you praise and thanks. We glorify your name for all that you do for us and the power of Christ and his Spirit. And may the blessing of almighty God, the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit come down upon you and remain with you forever.

Fr. David:

Amen.

Fr. Craig:

Amen. Thank you, Archbishop. You've been listening to Men of the Hearts, a monthly podcast from the Archdiocese of Detroit Office of Priestly Vocation. Join me, your host Father Craig Giera —.

Fr. David:

And me, Father David Pelican.

Fr. Craig:

As we explore the priesthood, hear vocation stories from priests all over the archdiocese and answer questions about discerning a priestly vocation. Tune in every month to wherever you get your podcasts and learn more at detroitpriestlyvocations.com.