Facing the Money Anxiety: A Psychologist's Perspective on Bitcoin and Personal Finance

In this podcast episode, Clinical Psychologist Vivian shares her insights on anxiety around money and finance, the importance of financial literacy for women, and her journey with Bitcoin.

From her own experience in private practice, she shares the impact of financial knowledge on the autonomy, empowerment, and sense of safety for women. Vivian emphasizes the need for women to understand and manage their own finances to avoid falling into compromising or disempowering situations.

She shares insights about the anxiety and stress that surrounds managing finances, relating it with her own experience of running a business. Vivian talks about the need for taking risks, accepting the reality, and facing financial issues head on.

Vivian shares her thoughts on Bitcoin as a newer, potentially more secure way to invest, though she also notes it requires learning, understanding and a willingness to try something new. She suggests that people invest a bit of time and money just to see what it feels like to own Bitcoin. She does note however, that it's not always easy to get others to see the potential benefits of Bitcoin.

Towards the end, she calls on women on the fence about Bitcoin to continue learning about it and make a gradual move into investing to experience what it feels like owning Bitcoin while observing its acceptance growing worldwide. Vivian expresses her excitement about the potential Bitcoin has in offering a new, innovative solution to current financial issues.

00:00 Introduction: The Importance of Financial Empowerment

00:42 Welcome to Orange Hatter: Empowering Women through Bitcoin

01:04 Exclusive Retreat for Women in Bitcoin: Rejuvenation, Connection, and Empowerment

02:27 Interview with Vivian: A Clinical Psychologist's Journey into Bitcoin

04:50 Understanding Financial Anxiety and the Role of Bitcoin

08:34 The Impact of Bitcoin on Personal Life and Business

21:24 The Importance of Financial Education and Awareness

33:01 The Challenges of Promoting Bitcoin to Family and Friends

36:22 Final Thoughts: Encouraging Women to Explore Bitcoin

37:09 Conclusion: The Excitement of a New Financial Future with Bitcoin

*** Check out the Orange Hatter Women's Retreat at www.orangehatter.com/yucatan ***

To learn more about Bitcoin: Join the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.  Please email to Tali@orangehatter.com for the private telegram group and zoom link.

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Money and economics are just so important because when we're

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financially sound, we feel safe,

we feel secure, we feel empowered.

3

We feel like we have control and

we have more freedom and autonomy.

4

I see in my practice, women who, maybe

are single and they just don't really

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focus on these kinds of things or

women who are not in good partnerships.

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They get compromised or hobbled, with

not being knowledgeable about these things

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or they get stuck or they lose their

own sense of power in the relationship.

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And so I think it really is

important for women to look and

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to learn and to face these issues.

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Tali: Hey, everybody.

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Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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My mission for the Orange Hatter podcast

is that after tuning in and hearing

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We can't wait to welcome you.

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Tali: Hi Vivian.

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Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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Thank you so much for

spending time with us tonight.

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Vivian: Thank you so much for having me.

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This is very exciting.

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Tali: Let's start by talking a

little bit about your background.

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Vivian: Sure.

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Yeah.

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I'm a clinical psychologist and

I have my own private practice.

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And I see a pretty diverse client,

population working with people

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with a variety of different

issues, depression, anxiety.

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I try to use an integrative approach with

people like including healthy lifestyles

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into the interventions or the treatments

that I do with them having that nice mind

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body, balance and overall good health as

the way that I tend to work with people.

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Tali: Cool.

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So let's dive right into Bitcoin.

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When did you first come across

this weird thing called Bitcoin?

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Vivian: Yeah.

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And I guess it was probably

about 13 years ago.

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, my husband has been actively involved in

it for that amount of time in terms of

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just studying Bitcoin, investing making

connections in the community, like going

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to conferences and meetup groups and

thinking about ways to promote it from a

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business perspective and supporting, All

those who are trying to bring it more,

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mainstream and I've just had this Cursory,

understanding and involvement in it.

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I've been, because I've been raising

kids and I've just been developing

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my own business and anything to do

with money is not my preference.

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I don't really, it's not my go to.

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I have a lot of anxiety about money.

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But I, found it to be really interesting.

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I do listen to podcasts on occasions and

I check the Bitcoin prices and I get when

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it goes up and sometimes, read articles.

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And, when I see that new businesses

are, open to, accepting Bitcoin,

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I think that's really cool.

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And like seeing other

countries adopting it.

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I have an interest in it , but

I've been dipping my toe in it,

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maybe waiting a little bit, but

not taking the full plunge yet.

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And, but it's something that I do

find it's really interesting and

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really exciting and just to see how

the, community has just grown and

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developed and I think it's really cool.

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And I love, the idea of your podcast

and especially talking to women

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about their experiences with it.

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I think it's really awesome.

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Yeah.

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Tali: You mentioned that you

feel anxious about money.

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I think that's something a

lot of women probably share.

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Can you elaborate a little bit about

that and maybe just look at it from

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your professional point of view?

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What might be the cause and

how we should deal with that.

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Vivian: Yeah I know just personally

for me, it's one, like I said, I.

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I'm not a numbers type of person.

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Like I don't, I don't really like looking

at numbers, but I think just money.

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I don't think, in, in growing

up, I had a really good I don't

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know, schooling about money.

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My mother would spend money very well.

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And she would give you

the shirt off of her back.

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And, with my dad, he was

much more I don't know.

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I guess I wouldn't really say he

was conservative because he would

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buy things that he really liked.

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But there was always tension

around, money and finances, even

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though as a family, , you know,

my parents did fairly well.

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And I just feel like I just was

never fully educated into saving

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or how to invest in money.

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and it's not really having any

problems with money but just it

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just a lot of anxiety, around it.

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Both my husband, I have our own businesses

and During the Obama years we pay our

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taxes, but we were like hit with like

when you're like 6, 000 extra we'd

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owe and then 8, 000 extra we owed.

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And it was just very stressful.

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And you're like, okay,

where's, this coming from?

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I guess it must have been around the.

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2008, you know, where things

were happening in the economy.

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And I think having also one's own

business that you have to think about

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money and you have to learn about

money and be careful with your money.

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And you are more aware of when

your money is being taken from you

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with taxes and things like that.

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Where for example, I have a lot of

friends who work For big companies

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or they work for the government and

they don't, I don't think that they,

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at least in my experience, have the

same worries or anxieties that I do.

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There's always feels like there's

much more of a safety net.

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And when you have your own

business, you don't have that.

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And you have to just be, you see the

flow of things coming in and going out.

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And so you do have to be much more

aware and mindful about money.

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And yeah, I definitely

feel the stress of it.

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And, I definitely see it in the work that

I do with my clients where and I think

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it's something that's not really talked

about but I look at financial stress and

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anxiety is as a big component of anxiety.

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And, I often see it , in my clients.

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Especially now with, inflation and

and sometimes people, having to worry

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about, their jobs or they're not

getting the raises that are deserved

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and people having to deal with this.

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And so I, I think that there

is a lot of anxiety when it

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comes to, thinking about, money.

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And I think that the idea and what Bitcoin

represents Hopefully can give people a

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little bit more peace of mind with that.

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Tali: You mentioned that your

husband has been in the Bitcoin

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space for quite a while.

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In the beginning when he became

so actively involved and you

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were busy building up your

business and raising your kids.

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What did you think about Bitcoin?

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Vivian: know, it's I think I

thought it was very, I didn't, I

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don't even know what I thought.

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I thought it was strange.

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I thought, oh, is this a scam?

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Is this a, I don't know.

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I don't know.

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I don't.

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I don't know.

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I just didn't know what it was.

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I was just like, I don't really know.

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But I would, listen and I would watch

and, we have a good relationship.

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So I, trust him in terms of, the things

that he's pursuing and he's doing.

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So I listened and would watch things

but it, probably took a good, I said 13

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years, it's probably been like 10 years

where I was not really paying attention

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or involved in probably over, I would

say over the last three to five years,

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I've been more paying more attention

and doing more self study on my own.

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Tali: Okay, in your practice, you're

seeing clients coming in with anxiety

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issues and a lot of it has to do

what's going on in the world today.

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Financial stress inflation, et cetera.

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How do you coach your clients in

dealing with what they cannot change?

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Vivian: I think with anxiety, right?

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Like when something is really

threatening to us that it's

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either fight flight or freeze.

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Sometimes we're just like,

oh, I don't know what this is.

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I don't know what to do.

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And we just freeze because we

don't know how to handle it.

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Sometimes.

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We stick our head in the sand I

don't want to look, I don't want to

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know, I don't want to think about it.

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But the best thing that we can do

is to face it and to deal with it.

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So part of it is getting my clients to

actually look at what the problem is and

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to try to best prepare and how to best

Protect themselves and utilize resources

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that they have, maybe ask for supports

if needed , being willing to sacrifice.

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Like sometimes you have to let some

things go in order to move forward.

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So all of that I think is part

of dealing with that anxiety.

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To actually to look and to pay attention

and to gather information that's

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going to help you to move forward

and face whatever it is that you have

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to face and also to recognize that

there may be some sacrifices that

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you have to make in that process.

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You may have to let some things go that

you don't necessarily want to let go of.

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Tali: Okay, so let's say hypothetically,

I am a retiree and I have whatever

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retirement income I have, social security

or some kind of private something.

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And I'm watching the purchasing

power of the same amount of

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money I'm receiving every month

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go down and I'm filled with anxiety

because I'm afraid there's gonna come a

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day when I'm not gonna have enough And

there's nothing for me to fall back on.

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How do you coach someone in that state?

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I'm trying to visualize how they

can work through that and help

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themselves from your point of view

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Vivian: Yeah and I think that

from a professional standpoint,

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first, of course, is acknowledging

sort of the challenges of that.

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And then, trying to put

supports and supports.

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Again, like letting some things

go like that, that you're going

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to have to make some changes.

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You're going to have to adjust.

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You're not going to be able to be

living exactly as you were living.

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And so trying to figure out,

okay what are the priorities?

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What are the things that I can let go of?

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And then what are also, are there

other places that I can get, supports?

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And I think, that would be a way

from a, psychological perspective

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that I would work with them.

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Now, I can't, professionally suggest

Bitcoin to people but I think , that's the

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interesting thing about, Bitcoin, right?

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Is that it's a way for people to

invest and also to Secure some

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of the money that they have.

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Tali: I think With enough time, yes,

if you're talking about money that

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you need to use immediately, then it's

risky because it is still very volatile.

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But I do know that I don't know I'm

assuming if I'm literally that person I

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just described, and I have spent my entire

life with a certain set of expectations.

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I work hard, I put money away,

I retire and I live in Florida.

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You were talking about.

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Making changes, necessary changes,

in the face of what's happening

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in our system today in our

society today with inflation, etc.

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I think a lot of people would find it

very difficult to change their picture

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of what retirement should look like.

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I know that.

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My mom expected her retirement

years to be a certain way.

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And if you're trying to tell her that

she can't live in the house that she

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was planning to live out her life in,

that's You're forcing, you're almost

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forcing her to change her reality.

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So how do you coach somebody who's in that

situation where they must change the way

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they see things or see what is absolutely

necessary for themselves as a, as

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something different, with a different set

of, I don't even know, like parameters.

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Vivian: I think that those that

expectations are that, that

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is a component of anxiety too.

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It's like when we feel like we're

not meeting our own expectations

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or the other, or the expectations

of others, or the expectations

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of life, we get really anxious.

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Like we have this vision

of how things should be.

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And it's not happening.

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And that creates a lot of anxiety.

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And so part of it is, reevaluating

things and trying to have realistic

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expectations for where we are right now.

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And a lot of times with anxiety, people

are either thinking about past things,

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or they're worrying about the future

and they're bouncing back and forth.

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So you have to we all have to be a little

bit more in the now and the present.

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Okay.

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And what is actually happening now?

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And, do a reality check and having

realistic expectations, like those

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things that we wanted, or we expected.

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They're not going to happen.

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And we have to be in the now and another

component of anxiety is uncertainty.

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So if we don't know what's going

to happen, we get really anxious,

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and particularly now in a world

that's changing and everything is.

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We feel like the rug's been

pulled out from under it's

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very, anxiety provoking time.

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And there's a lot of uncertainty.

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, but, uncertainty doesn't necessarily

have to be a negative thing.

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It can be, exciting.

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It can also be good and anxiety

leads people to be also more

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pessimistic or negative.

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So trying to, look for the good

things or look for the things that

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are positive is really important.

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But I think you're right.

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It's very hard to change those

expectations or those things are the ways

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that we think that life is supposed to be.

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It's very difficult because when we are

coming out of that, there's also grief.

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Like it's sad, it's sad that we had

invested in so much and we had wanted

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so much, or we expect, and then,

these things aren't gonna happen.

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And so sometimes people are

hit with grief on top of that.

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So it's very challenging.

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Tali: Yeah.

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That grief component That was the

word that I wasn't able to actually

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pin down, but that's absolutely

true . I think for a lot of people,

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there is grief in the financial

situation they find themselves today.

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So we Bitcoiners like to say

that Bitcoin is hope and the hope

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means that it's in the future.

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So how do you balance that?

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If you live in the now in today's

reality, Bitcoin is still a

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very volatile asset class.

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It's not yet the money standard that

we hope it to be and yet if we live in

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the present, I'm just trying to think

of um, can you give some practical

277

tips for people who are feeling anxious

about what's happening and Coping with

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it today without Necessarily looking

in the future to Bitcoin as hope.

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Vivian: I think that this is the

time of sacrifice that a lot of times,

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again, when we're about to make a

change, there's things that we have

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to give up, we have to sacrifice.

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And it's hard.

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And again, doing a reality check of This

isn't what I thought it was going to be.

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this will be a hard time.

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It's temporary, but I may

need to, cut back on things.

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I may need to, utilize the resources that

I do have checking the resources you do

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have and trying to utilize, what you have.

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Right now.

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And then the other piece of it in order

to change is we have to take risks and

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we have to be willing to take a risk.

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And so there is a risk in

investing in something like Bitcoin.

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it may be scary for a lot of

people because it's not something

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that's, familiar or known.

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It's something that, there's, it's, A

lot of naysayers out there about it.

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You're you may be doing things differently

than your family or your friends are.

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But in order to change again sometimes we

have to sacrifice things and we have to

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take a little bit of a risk in order to

move in order for things to be different.

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And when we're going to move into

something, we can either jump in with

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both feet yeah, I'm going to go all in.

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Or the other thing you can do is

you can, it can be gradual change.

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So maybe you like.

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Okay well, I'm just going to invest

a little bit and I'm going to watch

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and I'm going to see how that goes.

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And then you feel a little bit more

comfortable and you're talking to more

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people or you're seeing and maybe you're

like, you're watching things change.

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Like you're seeing new businesses open.

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In, in terms of taking Bitcoin

or you're seeing another country.

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Okay.

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He's okay this is moving.

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It's there's things happening.

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It's growing that, and that gives

you a little bit more confidence.

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Okay.

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Maybe I'll, invest.

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A little bit more and that's going to

help, I think in terms of feeling, hope

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also in seeing that things are changing

that things are happening you can

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even see it, I think in the political

spectrum, there are some candidates

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out there that are, open to Bitcoin.

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I think that's pretty cool too.

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Cool.

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But that's, that's part

of the process of change.

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And, I think circling back , you

know, I always talk with clients

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about the impetus for change.

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What's the reason to do something

so for example, if somebody is

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going to, I don't know, try to

lose weight or something like that.

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And what I find in this is just

my own way of thinking about it.

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I don't know if anybody else

thinks it this way, but I think

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that sometimes we do things.

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Either like for the love of ourselves.

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So it could be, for vanity.

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So maybe like people just want to have

money or maybe it could be because,

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I want to secure, my own future or Or

it could be the love of somebody else.

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And why I want to do this for my kids,

or maybe because I saw somebody else

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do it and they had benefits to it.

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So it's either the love of self or the

love of others, or there's a crisis.

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So sometimes like a crisis

is an impetus for change.

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Like, Oh, wow.

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I lost all of my my other investments.

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So I'm going to try Bitcoin now.

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Like That's, or, the

government took all my money.

340

So I'm gonna I want to find

a secure way to invest.

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There's a crisis that happens.

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And that will be the impetus for change.

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But for some people, even a crisis

isn't going to be an impetus for change.

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So it's like somebody who's a smoker

and they're on, they got emphysema and

345

they're on a machine and they're still

smoking and they're really sick, but

346

they're still going to keep doing it.

347

So there's going to be some people

that don't necessarily buy into it.

348

And then I think so there's the impetus

for change like, why am I doing this?

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What's important to me?

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And then there's the

process of change and.

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At first we may not even know we need

to change or do anything differently.

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And then we may be like, Oh, I

need to do something differently

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in terms of my investments.

354

And so you start, you're sitting on the

fence and you're gathering information.

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And so maybe it is, you're

listening to podcasts.

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Maybe you're talking to somebody

who's already invested in Bitcoin,

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or you go to a meetup group.

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And then when you have enough

information and you feel

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comfortable, then you make a move.

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So you may decide, okay, I'm going

to invest a little bit on it,

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and so you gradually get into it.

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So I think, there is a process.

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For change and it can either be gradual

or again, you can jump in with both feet.

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Change is also hard and there's

a lot of resistance to it.

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Most people don't like to change

because as I said, there's a sacrifice.

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So it's time okay, I have to

invest this time and learning about

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this, or I'm going to have to move

money over to invest in Bitcoin.

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And again, it's scary and I'm doing

it differently than other people.

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And people may judge me for it.

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And so trying to Get out of our own way.

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In, in terms of, thinking about, okay,

what are the roadblocks, are important

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and to have some confidence and, and

just takes and be willing to take a

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little bit of a risk is important.

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And I, and I think, like the other

thing, like I think about too, is that,

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particularly for women, and this is why

I'm so glad that you're doing this podcast

376

is that money and economics are just so

important because when we're financially

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sound, we feel safe, we feel secure.

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We feel empowered.

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We feel like we have control and

we have more freedom and autonomy.

380

And that's why, being financially

sound and knowledgeable, it's just

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so important, especially for women.

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And, cause I see in my practice, women

who, maybe are single and they just don't

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really focus on these kinds of things or

women who are not in good partnerships.

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And then they, get compromised or

hobbled, with not being knowledgeable

385

about these things or they get

stuck or they lose their own sense

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of, power in the relationship.

387

And so I think it really is important

for women to look and to learn and

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to face these issues, which I'm

on the cusp of doing myself great.

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I'm grateful.

390

I have a good partner who

shares everything with me.

391

He, he, we talk about it and he's this

is ours and, which is, it's very good.

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But for some women that's not the case

and they end up getting stuck or they're

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in a very, poor financial situation.

394

And this is why it's so important for

women to learn about these things.

395

Like I had a friend who was telling me

a story about a woman that she knew.

396

Who, and she didn't, my friend

doesn't know a lot about Bitcoin.

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And I was talking to her a

little bit about what I knew.

398

And she was telling me about this other

woman who discovered that her husband.

399

And she was the breadwinner

of the family actually, but she

400

trusted her husband and he took a

lot of money out of her savings.

401

And he said that he got scammed by

Bitcoin but he wanted a divorce.

402

And I said, that's really weird.

403

Like I was like, I don't understand

how it could be scammed by Bitcoin.

404

And then it hit me.

405

I was like, he took that

money and invested in Bitcoin.

406

So she couldn't get it.

407

And this is what my hypothesis is.

408

I don't know if it's true or not, but

this woman had no awareness that is

409

something that could even be possible.

410

And so she believed that she was

being scammed, but no, he actually

411

stole her money, and this kind

of stealing of money, whether it's

412

in a relationship or whether it's

government or, whatever it is.

413

I think as women, we need to be,

again, aware of our finances and

414

Bitcoin's a great way to have some

security and I guess these are

415

just things that I think about.

416

Tali: Yeah, I homeschooled and

Scott and I from the very beginning

417

felt like we were exceptionally

unprepared for real life, even though

418

we both graduated from brand name

schools, because we didn't know the

419

fundamentals of what you just mentioned.

420

We knew how to have a checking account.

421

This is decades ago, of course.

422

We knew how to balance our checkbooks.

423

You don't have to do that today, but

we knew how to balance our checkbooks.

424

We knew that you could put money

in the mutual fund in the stock

425

market itself, but we didn't

really understand how money worked.

426

And like you said, in a healthy

household we divide and conquer, right?

427

We have women generally would take care

of the house and men generally will

428

work and take care of the finances.

429

But like you said, things change.

430

And you don't necessarily have to

be in an unhealthy relationship

431

to be in a situation where

you need to know this stuff.

432

And so I wish that schools today

would prepare our young people for the

433

realities of life, like those things,

like they're really super practical stuff,

434

instead of studying a bunch of things

that are philosophical and conceptual.

435

I understand why we need to study history.

436

But if I had to choose one, to learn

how money works versus memorizing

437

a bunch of dates and wars and names

of kings and queens and generals.

438

I would rather they learn the

practicalities of what money

439

is and how to take care of

it throughout their lifetime.

440

Vivian: Yeah, absolutely.

441

Absolutely.

442

And also just it helps to prepare,

like if there's, again, if there's a

443

crisis or if there's an unexpected,

you need to know what, what to do and

444

how to, and just to protect yourself.

445

It's the best way to protect yourself.

446

And as you said, oftentimes

we're not really educated.

447

And even as a psychologist, there were no.

448

Doing business classes or, in terms of

running a business as a psychologist,

449

all things, I had to learn.

450

And I had to figure it out.

451

I'm better for it.

452

I still don't like it.

453

It's not my, it's not my favorite.

454

It's not my go to, I just, I

really like working with people

455

and, but I think it's important.

456

It's.

457

Because it does provide us with

all those things like safety,

458

security, control, freedom, autonomy.

459

Yeah, it's very important.

460

Tali: I also found it really interesting

that you mentioned When you and your

461

husband were running your two separate

businesses, you felt the pain of

462

the money going out of your account,

running a business because you see it.

463

Running a business is such a

emotional rollercoaster and

464

you're solely responsible.

465

You have no safety net.

466

You are it.

467

How your business does, how

much money comes in every month.

468

You are it.

469

And then to see it so casually taken out

of your account, either through taxes or

470

fees or whatever license or Local, I don't

even know what to call those things like

471

there are so many requirements that fall

under fees that you have to pay on top of

472

Vivian: Yes.

473

Tali: income tax and all of that

stuff like you really Feel the pain

474

of that going out versus somebody

who's getting a paycheck where

475

everything has already been taken out.

476

So they don't like it.

477

They don't get to see that part.

478

They just see what they take home and

they feel the pain a little bit less.

479

I definitely am experiencing that now.

480

Scott and I running our own

business, our first time in our lives

481

because he for his whole career was

corporate, and I love this analogy.

482

Somebody said if your income is

visible and physical and sitting

483

in a wagon outside your house.

484

This is your harvest.

485

And you see how much is taken

out of that wagon or how little

486

you get to keep yourself.

487

You get angry, but we don't get

488

Vivian: it's infuriating.

489

I agree with you.

490

It's infuriating.

491

And I find it, it's very interesting

because I have a lot of friends that,

492

that either they or their husbands,

work in in corporate or government jobs

493

and lovely people but not really seeing

494

those effects, and I look at people

who are really struggling, and I

495

think that when you work in those

kinds of environments, you don't have

496

that same level of awareness, as the

person who, I don't know, owns the

497

restaurant or, it's just a very different

Experience and and it's, it is anxiety

498

provoking also what's going on right

now in terms of just our economy.

499

It just is.

500

It just is, but yeah.

501

Tali: Would you be okay with us talking

about maybe some of the kids that you see

502

in terms of what they feel anxious about?

503

Cause I feel like there's an epidemic

of anxious children these days.

504

Vivian: Yeah.

505

I work less with younger kids nowadays.

506

I do see a couple of adolescents and a

few, college students and they're Worried

507

about jobs and they're worried about

whether or not that they can own a house.

508

And a lot of them, at least in the

area that I live in, their parents

509

are very well to do and they want to

be able to have the same things that

510

their parents had but don't think that

they're going to be able to get it.

511

And they're worried about

student debt student loans.

512

And I don't think they're prepared,

I don't think that they're prepared.

513

And so I think, having kids

and adolescents and college

514

students learn about Bitcoin,

I think is really important,

515

Tali: It's a balancing act between

depressing them Too much and giving them

516

hope so depressing them about what's

happening today and the hope in Bitcoin

517

Vivian: Yes.

518

Yes.

519

Tali: Okay, so let's talk about

how Bitcoin has affected you

520

personally in a practical way.

521

So I know that as a whole family,

you guys have been in the Bitcoin

522

space for a while, but for yourself,

you mentioned that you started paying

523

attention only three to five years ago.

524

So since you started paying attention.

525

How has it changed the way you maybe

live practically or just in the

526

way that you view life in general?

527

Vivian: I think it's an

ongoing process, right?

528

cause I think you get used to

also living a certain way and

529

also relying on what is the norm.

530

But, as I said I see hope in that.

531

Just in looking at more, it's very simple,

but I think just seeing, businesses.

532

Being open to Bitcoin, seeing bank

machines with Bitcoin seeing, again,

533

some candidates that are very supportive

of Bitcoin, I think is important and

534

seeing, just on the world stage that

other countries are beginning to use it.

535

It's very exciting.

536

It's very exciting.

537

I still, in my mind, I'm like,

how is all this going to work?

538

But it's still, but yeah, so it's neat.

539

And it, in reality, it has been a roller

coaster, but I think that's okay, too.

540

That's also how life is.

541

It's not always stable, but I think

it's positive because it's growth.

542

And I think, when we see what's happening

to our, traditional money, situation

543

with all the debt that countries have

and the spending that's going on that

544

I think it's a Great safety net.

545

Tali: And you mentioned

that you have children.

546

How are you and your husband transferring

your Bitcoin knowledge to them?

547

Are they open to it?

548

Vivian: They're teenagers.

549

Our teenagers and, sometimes

kids aren't always in line

550

with, what their parents are.

551

They, they can listen.

552

I think they're interested, but

they also make fun of us, as well to

553

uh, o it's like, oh, yeah, Bitcoin.

554

But then they're really curious.

555

They are like, how much

Bitcoin do you have?

556

We're not going to tell you.

557

We don't need to talk about that, so

I think there's a curiosity there,

558

but they're waiting, to see, and I

think it will be my two, actually

559

all of my kids, including my youngest

had a job at 14 for a while and so

560

they're also learning about money.

561

And so they're having to.

562

Yeah.

563

You know, they're already complaining,

but I don't want to have to pay taxes.

564

And, there's some anxiety, I think, or

worry they have about money as well.

565

And so we're trying to educate

them and talking about spending,

566

saving and investing in

different ways to do that.

567

And, including Bitcoin, I think

that's, part of our job as

568

parents to try to help them to be

financially sound and responsible.

569

Tali: What about the rest of your family?

570

Are you able to share Bitcoin with them?

571

Vivian: Big sigh.

572

We have not been successful at

I don't think anyway, in terms

573

of having family adopt Bitcoin.

574

We have not.

575

I know what I would say is my sister,

I think, regrets not investing earlier.

576

She may have been, I haven't

really talked with her about it.

577

I know she has some friends that have

invested in it, so she may at this point

578

have, invested somewhat in it, but it's,

I think it's a big change for people.

579

It's very different and it's hard for

people to go to do things differently,

580

but that's growth, when you can really

go against the norm, that's courageous.

581

No.

582

And and it's exciting.

583

So

584

Tali: Okay.

585

So let's do a psychoanalysis.

586

When we talk to people who are

in a position where the monetary

587

system hasn't disappointed them.

588

It's worked out for them and

their identity is wrapped up

589

in the results of their effort

that have worked out for them.

590

How do we talk to them about Bitcoin

without attacking their identity

591

that's wrapped up in all of that?

592

Vivian: that's a really good question.

593

That's a really good question.

594

I think that, messaging is like in order

also to get other people to change.

595

A lot of times we have to

repeat the message in several

596

different ways at different times.

597

Before people are willing to hear it.

598

You know what I mean?

599

Also just because we voice things.

600

Again it offers an impetus for change,

but it's not a guarantee you can try

601

to, educate people, but it may not be.

602

I don't know, it may not be

worth it for them to change.

603

You know what I mean?

604

Maybe and that circles back to what's

the impetus for change what would

605

be the reason for them to change?

606

And it may not be possible for

some people, unless, you can find

607

what would really motivate them.

608

Like maybe for some people, it might

be well, you could actually, lose less

609

money or make more money or, whatever.

610

Maybe that's it.

611

Or maybe it's well, it's going

to benefit you in this way.

612

Or maybe they see that it's

been beneficial to you.

613

Maybe that would be that

they're like, oh, okay.

614

Maybe I'll try that.

615

It's hard to know what is going

to cause people to other people to

616

change or maybe it's their own crisis.

617

I think that all you can

really do is you can try to.

618

Talk about, but some people,

they're not going to care.

619

, everybody has their things that they

prioritize or that is important to them.

620

And so I don't think I can't even think

of what the magic would be that would

621

get somebody to to be interested in,

or to get it, I don't know, and maybe

622

it would take just more people doing

it, where it becomes more of a norm and

623

people like, oh, okay this is happening.

624

So I'll invest now as it becomes

more of a norm, because I think it is

625

really hard for people to do things

differently than what other people, or

626

to be more, Independent or it's not an

easy thing to do because you get judged.

627

I

628

Tali: That is so true.

629

Okay.

630

Any last recommendations to women who are

still sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

631

Vivian: I think it's just, continue

to talk to people and learn about it

632

and, consider making a little bit of

a sacrifice, whether it's that time

633

of learning about it or investing a

little bit of money and just seeing

634

what it's like, what does it feel

like just to have a little bit of

635

Bitcoin, maybe that will feel good.

636

Maybe it'll reassure you.

637

Maybe you'll find it fun watching

it go up and seeing things open up.

638

They go.

639

There's another store

that's accepting Bitcoin.

640

Awesome.

641

Yeah.

642

Tali: Great.

643

Thank you so much.

644

That was really fun.

645

I really enjoyed your

professional diagnosis

646

Vivian: Thank you.

647

is.

648

Like watching, it is it's exciting like

it's very and this is one last thing

649

I want to say, with just all the

craziness that's going on right now and

650

just the inflation and it's so horrible.

651

It's just horrible, and stressful, but

the idea of something new and something

652

different working is really exciting.

653

It's really, cause we need something new.

654

Cause it's not working right now.

655

And I think.

656

That's exciting.

657

That's very exciting.

658

So thank you so much, Tali.

659

It was fun.

660

Tali: Thank you for

listening to this episode.

661

Did you enjoy it?

662

Wasn't our guest absolutely fabulous.

663

I just love every woman's

story on this show.

664

Everybody has a unique perspective

and yet, we all come to the same

665

place, which is Bitcoin is an

important part of our lives.

666

If this story has inspired you

and you would like to know

667

more, go to www.orangehatter.com.

668

Get involved.

669

Join and our reading group, send

me an email and introduce yourself.

670

I will be so happy to hear from you.

671

The best way you can support this

show is to spread the word Tell

672

every woman, you know, to listen in.

673

You never know how they will

be impacted by these stories.

674

I appreciate you so much.

675

See you next time.

676

Bye.