8. Upleveling as a manager - an interview with Jeanna (Part 1)

Michelle: 00:00:53

This is episode seven: Upleveling as a manager,

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an interview with Jeanna.

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I took my sister to brunch and

basically grilled her on her experience

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of being informally coached by me.

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Each day on her way to or from work, she

would leave me a video message, asking

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a question or just processing her day.

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I thought it would be fun to

weave them together and to reflect

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on her experience as a manager.

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I've split this interview into two parts.

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First, we'll talk about coaching

and her experience as a frustrated

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manager in her last job.

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And the second part will specifically

cover her transition from a low wage

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dead-end role to her dream job and how

she was able to raise her self-esteem

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enough to open to a bigger dream.

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This episode is for you if you manage

a team, or work on a dysfunctional

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team, if you want to learn how

to manage your frustration at

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work, or if you're feeling stuck.

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This episode is for you if you have

a boss who is a bottleneck, if you

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experience meetings that seem to go on

and on and on, and don't go anywhere.

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Or this episode is for you if

you're curious about what coaching

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feels like and want to know more.

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Let's get to it.

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Jeanna, thank you for coming.

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Jeanna: I'm excited to be here.

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Michelle: So Jeanna is

in career transition.

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She just left - how would you

describe the job that you just left?

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Toxic,

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Jeanna: non profit, do everything,

wear every hat, make all decisions.

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But just kidding, not really.

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Michelle: You don't really have

authority to do anything...

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Jeanna: no, I don't have authority.

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Hold all the balls, juggle...

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Will you also dance and do it on one foot?

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And watch your form.

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And by the way, do it while

you're reading our minds.

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Michelle: Yeah, totally.

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So, um, I thought this was a

really unique opportunity to share

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the type of coaching that I do.

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Although this isn't really a

representative sample of my coaching

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because we're sisters and, um,

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Jeanna: I'm definitely spoiled rotten

because I can vent on my way home

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from work and not only get the sister

side of it, but then you're always,

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um, giving advice and giving those

coaching moments and you're able

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to draw out my thinking because I'm

constantly venting to you about it, so.

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Michelle: Yes, so the format is

Jeanna and I talk on Marco Polo.

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So the cool thing about Marco Polo

is I can save the videos when we're

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talking about work stuff or when I

give like really beautiful advice

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Jeanna: Yes.

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Michelle: that I remember.

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So I have copies of relevant, work

related, Marco Polo [video]s where you're

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venting on your way to or from work.

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And I thought it could be kind of fun,

now that you've left this job, to reflect

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on your experience there, and kind of

laugh at the realness of this, and think

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about, like, what you learned, and how

you'll approach the next job differently.

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Jeanna: Absolutely.

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Definitely bring some entertainment

to the up leveling work because it

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doesn't really feel like work when

you're talking through it, right?

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Because you're just talking through

the problem or the issue at hand, but

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when you're consistently doing this and

we have access to this type of thought

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process review, it's just a natural

process to look back and to see these.

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I mean, they still feel

so real to me, right?

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I remember those moments.

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And the frustration, but to be able to

just step out of it and look at it from

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a more high functioning, okay, bring your

eyes up and really what's the problem?

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And more often than not for me, right,

there was an emotional tie to it.

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So I felt disrespected or I felt like I

needed something that my work and these

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coworkers were just unable to give me.

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It wasn't realistic and so being

able to consistently highlight

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that helped to then change my mind

and my thought process around it.

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Michelle: Yeah, that makes sense.

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One of the things that I teach a lot in

my coaching clients is that it is normal

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for your amygdala to hijack your brain

when it perceives a survival threat.

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So anytime you feel like you're in

fight or flight, like, "I cannot do

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this anymore, I need to get the F out of

here right now," you know that probably

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your amygdala is running the show,

which is that more primitive part of

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your brain that's scanning for threats

and really trying to keep you safe.

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Enneagram 7 leader, like, "get

me out of here, I don't want to

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feel this is uncomfortable...

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I'm going to bounce thing" is like a

real impulse that I think you deal with.

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And depending on how you grew

up, like that's another layer of

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conditioning and ways that you learn

were acceptable or not acceptable.

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And so I think what's really cool

in listening back to these videos is

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that there's a lot of the things that

we make it mean about us as leaders

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when we're in the moment, like,

"I shouldn't be experiencing this.

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I should be above this.

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I should be past this," you

know, all these ways that

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we pass judgment on ourself.

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Jeanna: Why aren't they

just doing what I say?

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Michelle: Just listen to me already!

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That's

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Jeanna: favorite one.

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Michelle: Yeah.

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That, it's like, if you don't have someone

reflecting back to you, the added level of

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judgment and stress that you're creating

for yourself, you're just in the muck.

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Jeanna: Yes.

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Michelle: really hard to get perspective.

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Jeanna: Yes.

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And my favorite thing that you

do is, "It's totally normal

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for you to feel this way!

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Of course you're feeling this way."

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Like, that was always so helpful

to me, to just take a deep breath.

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Yeah.

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And it gave a, you know, affirmation

to my feelings are real, but

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they're not really helpful.

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And I think that's what we keep

coming back to is like, it's,

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it's real, but it's not helpful.

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It's not serving you.

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So.

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Michelle: yeah, the last thing we

want to do is like gaslight you out

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of like, you shouldn't feel that way

because that's like a layer of judgment

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on top of the layer of judgment.

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And it's like, it's just not helpful.

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So I was working with another client

just yesterday talking to her about

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the fact that the first thing you

have to do is take care of yourself

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when you perceive those threats.

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It's just a clue, it's just data that

there's something here I'm not comfortable

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with or that reminds me of something

else that really wasn't safe in my life.

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And until you're able to calm down and

give your brain those messages of safety

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or just remove yourself from the threat,

you don't have access to that rational,

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thinking, logical part of your brain that

can think your way out of the problem.

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Right.

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Jeanna: Which is what you're going to see

in our Marco Polo videos is me being stuck

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in the problem, unable to get myself out.

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Michelle: When I'm with my clients, I do

feel like sometimes I'm paid to tell them,

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"this is normal, what's the problem here?

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Like, why is this a problem?"

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And when I ask that, it can be

really kind of like, well, wait,

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your ego can want to like defend

and explain why it's a problem.

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And that's actually really helpful to

hear that because then you start to like

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bring into your consciousness the story

you're telling yourself about this.

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Jeanna: yes, which is where I'm living

right now, which is so helpful, but

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as a sister, it's really annoying.

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I'm not gonna lie.

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Michelle: don't think just as a

sister, I think, my clients feel way

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Jeanna: Yes, but, um, you

know what I have learned.

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Um, it's proven over and over again in

all our conversations and we're talking,

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and even when I don't agree with you,

um, or the things that you point out,

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um, it does help for me to start looking

at things differently or thinking about

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them differently, so there's times where

I kind of have to turn you off and go

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and sit with it, but more often than

not, it, you know, it helped my brain

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to get over whatever was, You know,

that roadblock, um, to be able to start

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thinking about something differently.

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Or, on the few times, which are

fewer than I'd like to admit, Um,

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you know, it was able for a, a good

indication for me to turn around

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and come back to you and say, "Well,

actually, that's not really how I feel.

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I said that.

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But this is what I'm feeling."

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and um, and those moments it's really good

because you're really good at pulling out

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questions and pulling out emotions behind.

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But it helps to be like, okay, so we

were, I was trying to deal with a, but

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if this is where you're thinking and

this is then, you know, I'm kind of like

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tweak and change directions a little

bit, which I mean, it's always helpful.

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Michelle: Yeah, I think the

brain is tricky that way.

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Like, more often than not, the problem

a client presents with is not really

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the problem we end up dealing with.

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Yeah.

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And I think that's so interesting because

the problem that you present with is

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like, "I can't deal with this right now!"

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but in being forced to articulate the

why, gives you another layer of clarity

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on like, what really is going on for me.

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Jeanna: Clarity and, um, self regulation

and self coping and, you know, learning

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to think through your thought process.

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Like, you know, it's all so healthy.

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It's all so healthy.

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And that's what I cannot stress

enough through our conversations

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is- as hilarious as they are.

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And I hope you guys find them hilarious.

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That it's really brought me to this

new health level where I feel, um,

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you know, in a safe space, confident

and, successful, and really able

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to handle whatever comes at me.

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Michelle: It's huge.

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What a gift!

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this like really stressful,

sometimes shitty job that you're in.

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Like really set you up in a

completely different way, like

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up leveled your nervous system.

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Yes.

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And really forced you to trust yourself.

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Yes.

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Because it was almost like it was so

chaotic and there was so much gaslighting

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going on and so much like, "is this me?

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Is this a system?

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Yeah.

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I can't tell what this is," that in

the moment it's like so much discomfort

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that you just have to figure out how to

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Jeanna: Yes.

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And not only trust myself,

but listen to myself, right?

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Because there's so much that

I was forced to communicate or

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articulate, um, and work through.

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Michelle: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That makes sense.

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Okay, we have this kind of unique

opportunity because you've left this job.

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And you're my sister, so you actually

share a lot more with me than I would

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normally get access to as a coach.

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We're about to have a little fun here.

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Yes.

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And I think, I think that's okay.

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I think you have to laugh.

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And this is in the spirit

of, like, evaluation.

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What was going on there, what can I

learn from it, that kind of a thing.

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Jeanna: And healing.

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Michelle: healing.

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The intention of this is to be

playful as much as anything.

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Some of the clips we're about

to watch are just you ranting

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and they just made me chuckle.

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Jeanna: You're welcome.

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Michelle: They made me chuckle and I think

it'll be kind of fun to show them back

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to you now and be like, what is going

on there, how do you feel about that?

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Marco Polo Video Clip:

Good morning, sister.

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Okay, the meeting happened.

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It was over two hours long, but to

be fair, we didn't even get into

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my things until an hour into it.

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And...

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When people come sit in my room and

just talk, it annoys the crap out

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of me, because I don't have time.

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And if we're being honest,

I'm not interested, right?

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Like, I'd rather be working and

doing the other things I have to.

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I know you're not asking my

opinion, but I see the big picture.

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And for you to be freed up to do these

things that you have to do, these are

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the priorities that you just listed,

you gotta get this stuff out of the way.

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You gotta get this stuff out of the way.

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And then that's gonna free you up to

do the things that you have to do, and

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also the things like making job aids so

that somebody else can do in the future,

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that then would allow you to walk away.

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So I said, give me a month

to pull this together.

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Um, and so, you know, that's exciting.

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It's something new.

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I'm a little dreary because right now

the schedulers won't let me walk away.

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They're constantly needing things.

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And in that role, in the

past, I never heard from them.

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They, they, they did their own

thing, and they're responsible

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for their own thing, and that's

where I'm trying to get them to go.

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I think we've definitely built

up morale, which is good.

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But I have to introduce these end

of day reports, which they both

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are, like, adamantly against doing.

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Which doesn't matter.

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They're going to have to do them.

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Um, but, they have to go to two different

places, three different places to find

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all the information to fill it in.

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And in the past, that has

just been a nightmare.

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They've needed, like, need to

hold their hand every step of the

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process and then ignore what I do

and go do something else anyways.

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It's really been quite frustrating.

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I just have to implement it.

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It will be fine.

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I just don't want to deal with a

children response of I do that.

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We

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have to say, I don't, I'm

sorry, this is what, this is

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what your job is asking of you.

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Michelle: I had a lot of tape of Jeanna

ranting about her job and specific

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people, but this was just a little taste.

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In my response.

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I was trying to explain to

her that this is normal.

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Part of the work of managing a large

team is making space for people to vent.

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And that you want to be careful not

to blame people and make them wrong.

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And just to make sure that you're

asking questions about the systems

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and the processes and the environment

that's getting this particular result.

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Here are some snippets of

what I shared with her...

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Marco Polo Video Clip: To

the extent that you can tell

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yourself, "this is totally normal.

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This is par for the course.

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We're right on track here.

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This is just what people do.

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And you know, these are

just how brains work.

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These are human brains at a different

point in their developmental journey.

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And we're all doing the best we can."

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Those thoughts are going

to help you better.

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So, I would definitely put

some constraints around your

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availability to listen to this stuff.

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And you can shut it down.

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You don't have to listen to everything.

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But like, If you plan for an hour or

two of your day to be spent checking

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in with people or having these kinds

of conversations, then you're not

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going to think it's a waste of your

time because you're investing in their

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mental well being, and this is what they

need right now, and it sucks because

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it doesn't feel productive, but it

actually is part of the job of a manager.

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It's like listening to people bitch

and moan and trying to discern what's

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personality, what's systemic, what is

worth fixing, what isn't worth fixing, and

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how to encourage someone where they're at.

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Because most people just need

to be seen and heard, and even

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if that's the only thing you're

doing, it's not a waste of time.

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This is the stuff that builds trust.

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The more you can say, I, you know,

like, give them a sense of, I see you,

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and or just hold people accountable.

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Just keep encouraging them to think for

themselves, to think bigger, to like

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practice their own mental flexibility.

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Like, how else could we think about this?

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I can definitely see the need

for people to just vent, and

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for me to be seen and heard.

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I find it hard, because usually I'm in

the middle of something when they come

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in, and I have to stop my brain power,

and then I lose thought and productivity.

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I might, I might return to what

I was doing, and I might not.

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And that is, uh, a source of frustration.

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So, I need, um, yes, I need

to adjust my expectations.

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And that was very helpful, right?

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Like, at a certain point, my job

is to motivate and keep them happy.

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And being results driven, I'm actually

really happy this week because I am able

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to get a lot of results and get a lot of

stuff done and get them off the table.

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It's also where it sends me into

workaholic mode because that

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feels so good to get things off my

list and get things out the door.

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I was I am super productive

today in so many levels.

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Um, I am, pretty much the last week

though, I leave with a headache.

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I'm just, my head hurts, I'm

tired of looking at the screen,

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and my brain hurts from thinking.

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Michelle: I just want to pause and

say that if you are experiencing

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physical signs of stress at work,

headaches, back or neck pain, et cetera.

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Your body is sending you

messages that you want to decode.

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: 00:15:48

Often we overlook or push through physical

symptoms and that sends a message to your

309

: 00:15:52

body that this isn't going to be heard.

310

: 00:15:55

Which can increase the intensity

on what you're feeling.

311

: 00:15:59

Often we overlook our push through

physical symptoms that are sending

312

: 00:16:02

a message from your body that it can

get afraid isn't going to be heard.

313

: 00:16:07

And this increases the intensity

on what you're feeling.

314

: 00:16:11

When I'm coaching clients, it is easy for

them to stay in an intellectual headspace.

315

: 00:16:16

Sometimes we work on processing

uncomfortable emotions, but tuning

316

: 00:16:20

into your body is equally important.

317

: 00:16:23

See, tuning into all three centers

of intelligence is what is going to

318

: 00:16:26

help you to find more balance because

you'll be able to follow the clues that

319

: 00:16:30

you can only find by being present.

320

: 00:16:33

These were early signs to Jeanna

that it was time to advocate for

321

: 00:16:36

herself and to ask for what she needed

322

: 00:16:41

Marco Polo Video Clip: I'm just going to

send an email out to all the consultants

323

: 00:16:43

and say something along the lines

of, Since we have new consultants,

324

: 00:16:46

I just want to clarify what it looks

like for new accounts and networking.

325

: 00:16:51

And just spell it out for everyone.

326

: 00:16:53

Um, oh yeah, so the annoying thing is

then, she calls me with this new account.

327

: 00:16:57

So proud of herself.

328

: 00:16:58

She put it on the

calendar, then she asks me,

329

: 00:17:00

Jeanna: Oh, it's so real.

330

: 00:17:01

Marco Polo Video Clip: can do?

331

: 00:17:03

Mmm.

332

: 00:17:03

I tried to contact the other consultant.

333

: 00:17:05

Mmm.

334

: 00:17:06

And I had to sit there in the awkward

and say, no, there's nothing I can do.

335

: 00:17:11

We just talked about this

in the meeting yesterday.

336

: 00:17:13

It's a whole big event.

337

: 00:17:15

They've already done flyers with every

business around is participating.

338

: 00:17:20

It's the biggest thing we do.

339

: 00:17:22

Jeanna: You can see how much

better I feel just getting it out.

340

: 00:17:25

There's something about role playing.

341

: 00:17:26

Oh my measly little drive But I think

that feeling of like is this really what

342

: 00:17:34

I'm dealing with yes like what was going

on in that moment and Did this persist?

343

: 00:17:40

I mean this is in January.

344

: 00:17:42

Yes Uh, no, because my email to

everybody made it very clear that

345

: 00:17:47

this is unacceptable in the future

and that this is how we process that.

346

: 00:17:51

But, in the meantime, right, we had

had so much movement among consultants

347

: 00:17:56

and they were helping each other out

and covering territories as we were

348

: 00:17:58

hiring new people and so there is just

this level of What can I get away with.

349

: 00:18:04

I think one of the things about

this job is that you were hired

350

: 00:18:06

as a consultant and then you just

blew everybody out of the water.

351

: 00:18:09

And they promoted you like,

pretty much right away.

352

: 00:18:12

Yeah, within six months.

353

: 00:18:13

And you're like, this is great, I know

this, I can, I can make this happen.

354

: 00:18:16

Inside out.

355

: 00:18:17

Right, and then you, like, come up

against the reality of, like, there

356

: 00:18:21

are a lot of people just phoning it in.

357

: 00:18:22

That people don't know how to function.

358

: 00:18:24

And, um, And just not having that

same integrity and motivation, right?

359

: 00:18:30

Because in this role, it's

so much a self guided.

360

: 00:18:33

And so you need to go hit the

streets and drum up the business.

361

: 00:18:37

It's sales.

362

: 00:18:38

Um, and yeah, that doesn't

come easy to people.

363

: 00:18:42

No, and you were dealing with

a bonus structure that wasn't

364

: 00:18:47

actually incentivizing work.

365

: 00:18:49

No, it was, it was giving them a

bonus if they do the bare minimum.

366

: 00:18:52

Right.

367

: 00:18:53

You know?

368

: 00:18:54

Yeah, and you were dealing with the

people being used to getting away with...

369

: 00:18:59

Right.

370

: 00:19:00

You know, and it being enough.

371

: 00:19:01

Right.

372

: 00:19:02

Holding them accountable

or no knowing what to do.

373

: 00:19:05

Right?

374

: 00:19:05

Well, it was post covid, right?

375

: 00:19:07

and so they actually weren't able to

meet their goals because we didn't have

376

: 00:19:11

the staff to Support putting drives on

the calendar in this instance and so

377

: 00:19:18

as long as they As long as there was

anything else outside circumstances that

378

: 00:19:23

prevented them from reaching their goals,

then they would get a default bonus,

379

: 00:19:27

a quite high, quite large one at that.

380

: 00:19:30

So they were used to this.

381

: 00:19:31

I mean, we're talking.

382

: 00:19:33

14 months.

383

: 00:19:34

We're talking in almost a year and a half

of these free bonuses, these freebies.

384

: 00:19:37

I don't have to work right, which

incentivizes people to find a

385

: 00:19:42

good excuse to not do right.

386

: 00:19:44

And that's what we saw coming out of

it, that even though we were staffed,

387

: 00:19:48

then it was, well, I wasn't sure.

388

: 00:19:50

And, you know, all these excuses and

Yeah, that were just frustrating because

389

: 00:19:55

we had meetings upon meetings letting

them know what's happening, letting

390

: 00:19:58

them know change was coming, then change

was coming, they still weren't moving.

391

: 00:20:01

So yeah, it was very frustrating.

392

: 00:20:04

And once you cleaned

up the bonus structure.

393

: 00:20:06

Yes.

394

: 00:20:07

I'm sure it's not popular.

395

: 00:20:08

No.

396

: 00:20:08

Did you find that the

incentives were effective in

397

: 00:20:11

helping people get motivating?

398

: 00:20:13

Sometimes it's like People, there's

like integrity, or under character,

399

: 00:20:19

things that you're dealing with.

400

: 00:20:20

Sometimes it's capacity, like a lack

of creativity, or they don't even

401

: 00:20:23

know what to do, a strategy, or how.

402

: 00:20:26

Yes, yes, which is baffling

to me, because it's literally

403

: 00:20:29

what I taught and trained on.

404

: 00:20:30

And so there's no reason for you to say

I don't know how, or it's not working.

405

: 00:20:35

Because, again, I started out in

this role, I know it does work.

406

: 00:20:39

I know what it takes, and it's not a lot.

407

: 00:20:41

It was not hard.

408

: 00:20:42

Um...

409

: 00:20:43

And so what I found was that was actually

50 50 that there were personality types

410

: 00:20:49

that were like, Oh, things are changing.

411

: 00:20:50

I've got a change with it.

412

: 00:20:52

And so they kicked into high

gear and made those adjustments

413

: 00:20:55

and two of them chose not to.

414

: 00:20:58

And so then it became this.

415

: 00:21:00

battle against, um, just getting you

to do any work and having to have

416

: 00:21:07

the conversations and write, like,

how do I now have these conversations

417

: 00:21:10

that says this is a performance

job and you are not performing.

418

: 00:21:14

Like, I don't want to have to

spell it out, but that's really

419

: 00:21:17

probably the conversations that

needed to happen right away.

420

: 00:21:20

That instead I tried to like encourage and

motivate and, you know, without success.

421

: 00:21:26

Right.

422

: 00:21:26

subtype of.

423

: 00:21:29

Seven, which is a warmer.

424

: 00:21:31

Yeah.

425

: 00:21:32

Um, Seven, who is more oriented to like

the health of the group and the system.

426

: 00:21:37

Right.

427

: 00:21:37

And so intuitively you're feeling into

and sensing those things and wanting

428

: 00:21:41

it to be okay, for you to be okay.

429

: 00:21:43

Right.

430

: 00:21:44

And then you're also, I would say that

you probably lead with your heart.

431

: 00:21:49

Sure.

432

: 00:21:49

In a style of two, a helper.

433

: 00:21:51

Yes.

434

: 00:21:52

Um, and so naturally you're going to

look for ways that you can help them

435

: 00:21:57

get there, make their lives easier.

436

: 00:21:59

Right.

437

: 00:21:59

Set up the processes.

438

: 00:22:01

Right.

439

: 00:22:01

So you're like holding the vision

of the heart of the person and

440

: 00:22:03

the relationship with the person.

441

: 00:22:05

Yes.

442

: 00:22:05

But you're also holding the

health of the group and the

443

: 00:22:07

organization at the same time.

444

: 00:22:08

Yes.

445

: 00:22:09

That's a lot.

446

: 00:22:09

And unfortunately what that meant was

I was also holding their jobs because

447

: 00:22:14

there was a lot that I was doing

behind the scenes to try to help boost

448

: 00:22:17

and, and not because I wanted to do

their job for them, but because I was

449

: 00:22:22

accountable to the numbers, to the

higher up, to management, to director's

450

: 00:22:27

meetings that I then had to account for.

451

: 00:22:29

So if they did not perform,

then I had to answer for that.

452

: 00:22:34

And so it was just easier for me

to, you know, keep pushing and

453

: 00:22:38

trying to get them to do it on their

own, but also do the work in the

454

: 00:22:41

background that's going to help boost.

455

: 00:22:43

I think a lot of women do that.

456

: 00:22:44

It's like more efficient

for me to just do it myself.

457

: 00:22:47

Yes.

458

: 00:22:47

When you're under pressure and you Um, and

or once we have another person hired, or

459

: 00:22:54

once, whatever, this is going to change.

460

: 00:22:56

And a lot of people find themselves in

that, like, over functioning, over working

461

: 00:23:00

kind of a thing, and or micromanagement

trap, both are traps, towards burnout.

462

: 00:23:04

Yes, because while they're failing

to do their job, it's not okay

463

: 00:23:08

for me then to fail to do my job.

464

: 00:23:10

And I think in this position, I was really

set up to fail in that aspect because I

465

: 00:23:15

was being held accountable for their work.

466

: 00:23:19

This would be a good time to mention

that I created a free resource that

467

: 00:23:23

outlines the 10 most common mistakes

that managers make that contribute

468

: 00:23:27

to burnout and poor performance.

469

: 00:23:30

You can pick that up for free at

michellekayanderson.com/10mistakes.

470

: 00:23:37

And in my response to her previous rant,

I warned her about watching for signs of

471

: 00:23:42

contempt that it might be coming from her.

472

: 00:23:45

As a manager, this is a big red flag to

be aware of, to make sure that you are

473

: 00:23:49

helping things go in the right direction.

474

: 00:23:52

In the show notes i'll include a link

to a video that talks a little bit more

475

: 00:23:55

about this from the Gottman Institute.

476

: 00:23:58

Marco Polo Video Clip: What you have to

watch out for says is contempt because

477

: 00:24:01

that is a really toxic communications

when the four horsemen that got men.

478

: 00:24:05

Explains as, like, failures of

relationships, contempt, like, you're

479

: 00:24:11

on the board of contempt the way

you're talking about these people.

480

: 00:24:13

And if any of that comes out, it probably

comes out as condescension or criticism.

481

: 00:24:17

But if it comes as contempt, it's creating

a whole nother problem that's under the

482

: 00:24:21

surface um, unconsciously -resistance,

rebellious, laziness, whatever.

483

: 00:24:26

So just like check in with yourself,

take a deep breath before you

484

: 00:24:28

have these conversations, go for

a walk, whatever you need to do,

485

: 00:24:31

but like literally build time in.

486

: 00:24:33

To your day to do your job.

487

: 00:24:35

In the next clip, we were talking about

process and creating standard operating

488

: 00:24:40

procedures or what she calls job aids.

489

: 00:24:44

The intention being to help reduce meeting

time and avoid needless mistakes, because

490

: 00:24:49

she was getting increasingly resentful.

491

: 00:24:53

Marco Polo Video Clip: Good

idea of putting the policy in.

492

: 00:24:54

I actually have a binder that I've

made for the consultants, and my

493

: 00:24:57

frustration is they're not even using it.

494

: 00:24:59

They keep making these stupid

errors that they should know

495

: 00:25:02

better, and I'm doing crap.

496

: 00:25:03

Nobody did for me as a consultant.

497

: 00:25:05

I had to figure it out.

498

: 00:25:06

Nobody made me little cheat sheets

of when things were due, and, um,

499

: 00:25:10

nobody checked over my calendar

to make sure I did a good job.

500

: 00:25:13

Nobody checked in to make

sure I was getting my bonuses.

501

: 00:25:15

Nobody checked in when

things were cancelled.

502

: 00:25:17

Things were just cancelled.

503

: 00:25:18

It wasn't like, oh, let's look

what all the consultants are

504

: 00:25:21

doing when things were due.

505

: 00:25:23

I am so for them.

506

: 00:25:25

So I think that that's what frustrates

me when they're like lazy or don't

507

: 00:25:28

want to do the job is like, do you

have any idea what I'm doing for you?

508

: 00:25:31

Like I didn't get any of this stuff.

509

: 00:25:33

Um, and you're going to miss me

when I'm gone, but I can see how

510

: 00:25:38

that mindset isn't helping me.

511

: 00:25:40

Well, the other thing I can

see is that me doing all this

512

: 00:25:42

extra work isn't helping them.

513

: 00:25:45

Like, what's the point?

514

: 00:25:46

They're not referring to the job

aids that I've made that tell them

515

: 00:25:50

step by step how to do something.

516

: 00:25:52

And, um, I have a list of things I

need to address in emails with them

517

: 00:25:57

that already has three major things

I have to deal with that I have

518

: 00:26:01

talked with them over and over again.

519

: 00:26:05

So yes, my brain is not shut off.

520

: 00:26:09

It's super annoying.

521

: 00:26:10

I'm constantly with this best practices

and what should I have done and what

522

: 00:26:13

pissed him off and, um, and this is

a completely frustrating place to be.

523

: 00:26:18

Like, if 90 percent of my

work has to go through.

524

: 00:26:21

It's my only thing.

525

: 00:26:22

Everything goes through.

526

: 00:26:24

Unavailable to me and every time I go

into this desk, I have Six to ten things

527

: 00:26:31

that I need direction or approval on it's

getting increasingly Frustrating because

528

: 00:26:37

I'm in the space of waiting zones So you

can definitely see the need to like expand

529

: 00:26:43

like who I go to but I did that yesterday

and got that's not good practice.

530

: 00:26:49

So I don't know I need to just let it go

and I've tried so hard To do different

531

: 00:26:55

things, and my brain just keeps coming

back and replaying this stupid situation.

532

: 00:26:59

Here's the thing.

533

: 00:27:00

I've not been invited into the directors.

534

: 00:27:02

I should be.

535

: 00:27:03

I'm running a department, making

all the marketing materials,

536

: 00:27:05

making all the website decisions.

537

: 00:27:06

Do you think I've done

one bit of work on this?

538

: 00:27:08

No.

539

: 00:27:09

So, I'm doing all the work, but I'm

not including the directors meetings.

540

: 00:27:14

Where probably the exposure that

you're looking for, and if my boss

541

: 00:27:18

says there needs to be a meeting

with finance and whatever, all those

542

: 00:27:20

people are in directors meetings.

543

: 00:27:22

So, if I've only, which I'm not invited

to, so if I've only been given direct

544

: 00:27:28

access to Rachel, then it's the only

space that I've been in, so I can see

545

: 00:27:32

that need to expand, but if I'm not

invited in, like, does that expand?

546

: 00:27:36

You know what I mean?

547

: 00:27:37

That's the question.

548

: 00:27:39

Okay, I'm sorry.

549

: 00:27:40

I told you, I have not been able

to get this out of my brain.

550

: 00:27:42

It's annoying me.

551

: 00:27:44

I'm trying to let it go, I try to

put worship music on, and like shift

552

: 00:27:48

focus, and it just is not happening.

553

: 00:27:51

It's not happening.

554

: 00:27:51

It's not happening.

555

: 00:27:51

Really frustrating.

556

: 00:27:53

Okay.

557

: 00:27:56

Jeanna: There's this thing that

you experienced in this job that

558

: 00:27:58

a lot of people experience that

is like, there's a bottleneck.

559

: 00:28:01

My boss is being a bottleneck.

560

: 00:28:02

Yep.

561

: 00:28:03

They hired me to do this thing, and

now I can't do the thing because I feel

562

: 00:28:06

like my hands are held behind my back,

because I have to approve every decision.

563

: 00:28:10

Yes.

564

: 00:28:11

And they're not available for that.

565

: 00:28:13

Not available.

566

: 00:28:14

But they're increasing the

pressure on me to produce.

567

: 00:28:17

Yes.

568

: 00:28:17

And they're the reason I can't produce.

569

: 00:28:19

Yes.

570

: 00:28:19

So what do I do?

571

: 00:28:20

Yes.

572

: 00:28:22

And well, and not only that, but

I can't do the other pieces of

573

: 00:28:25

my job until this is approved.

574

: 00:28:27

Right?

575

: 00:28:27

So this is step one and they're ready

for me to be at step six, but I can't get

576

: 00:28:32

past step one to do two, three and four.

577

: 00:28:35

Yeah.

578

: 00:28:35

Why do you think that happens so much?

579

: 00:28:37

Like, do you think they can't see?

580

: 00:28:40

In this role, I think

my boss wanted control.

581

: 00:28:43

She wants control over everything.

582

: 00:28:45

And I really saw that come

out in different, um, times.

583

: 00:28:50

throughout the year.

584

: 00:28:52

Um, I don't know why.

585

: 00:28:54

I know in my personal world that when

I tend to feel out of control, say at

586

: 00:28:59

home with my Children, you know, with

whatever I do tend to take, um, extra

587

: 00:29:04

control or try to micromanage in work.

588

: 00:29:08

I had the pleasure of having an

amazing boss that pointed that

589

: 00:29:12

out to me when I was really young.

590

: 00:29:13

I was maybe late twenties.

591

: 00:29:16

Um, and it was so helpful to me

because it was, she spoke truth

592

: 00:29:22

in hard truth into my world.

593

: 00:29:25

And then the next time that popped

up or I got frustrated with people

594

: 00:29:28

at work, I could then step back and

see that what she had said was true.

595

: 00:29:32

And so for me, that was like a key

moment that as a manager, I tried to do

596

: 00:29:37

those with other people on receptively.

597

: 00:29:39

It's hard.

598

: 00:29:41

Yeah.

599

: 00:29:42

Like when to give feedback

and how to give feedback, how

600

: 00:29:45

to make sure that someone is.

601

: 00:29:47

In a frame of mind where they can

hear and they want to hear and

602

: 00:29:49

they're consenting to this process

that they want to be mentored.

603

: 00:29:52

Or else it falls on deaf ears and creates

a problem because they feel in control.

604

: 00:29:56

So frustrating.

605

: 00:29:58

Yeah.

606

: 00:29:58

So in this case, it's really hard to say

because my boss liked to be in control.

607

: 00:30:04

And she wanted her hands on everything.

608

: 00:30:05

But I think there was also

another piece of it that she was

609

: 00:30:08

shielding, which was accounting.

610

: 00:30:12

Who answers to nobody and, um, may or

may not approve depending what mood

611

: 00:30:18

she's in that day and has the ear of

the CEO, you know, um, and so there

612

: 00:30:23

really was a space because a lot of what

I was doing needed funds or approval,

613

: 00:30:27

um, where it was like, you have to

like tiptoe and do this little dance.

614

: 00:30:32

You do, you don't, you do, you don't,

and to come in and strike right at the

615

: 00:30:35

right moment to ask for what you need

in order to get the approval that maybe

616

: 00:30:39

she understood in a way that No one

else did, and maybe she was shielding

617

: 00:30:44

me from that, or maybe she was shielding

herself from me having that direct

618

: 00:30:48

access and knowing what it might cause.

619

: 00:30:51

Um, I'm really not sure, um, and

especially when it came to, like,

620

: 00:30:57

communications and marketing

stuff, um, because a lot of that

621

: 00:31:01

got turned down for no reason.

622

: 00:31:03

You know, it's like, we need a

community poster, for example, um,

623

: 00:31:07

but she doesn't think those really

work, so she's not approving it.

624

: 00:31:10

Well, Okay, But she has no data.

625

: 00:31:12

But we have no other, like, we're

not Advertising in any other ways

626

: 00:31:16

right now, post covid, there's no

funding to get anything printed

627

: 00:31:20

or to have any type of ads.

628

: 00:31:22

And so, like, we have to make a decision.

629

: 00:31:25

And so when all the decisions are shut

down, which is really what was happening

630

: 00:31:28

at the end, every where I hit, I was

running into a wall and getting a no.

631

: 00:31:33

Um, That was like, we can't

do nothing and expect change.

632

: 00:31:37

And after three months of that, I was

like, I refuse to work in this any longer.

633

: 00:31:42

I won't do it.

634

: 00:31:43

It's a good example on the

five dysfunctions of a team.

635

: 00:31:46

Yes.

636

: 00:31:46

That's a really good illustration.

637

: 00:31:48

When there's no trust in the organization,

these are the shenanigans that happen.

638

: 00:31:52

Yes.

639

: 00:31:52

You've got people, smart people,

employed to do a job that

640

: 00:31:56

they've worked very hard on.

641

: 00:31:57

Yes.

642

: 00:31:58

And think that they have approval

for because their boss says so.

643

: 00:32:02

lead them to believe or because no

one's told them otherwise or whatever.

644

: 00:32:06

And when there are opportunities, when

their project is at risk and they have an

645

: 00:32:09

opportunity to step up and make it happen,

their hand gets slapped and it's not safe.

646

: 00:32:14

That's the message.

647

: 00:32:15

It's not safe for you to do that.

648

: 00:32:16

It's not okay.

649

: 00:32:16

And in fact, the whole project, seven

months of work implodes, and then we

650

: 00:32:21

wonder why we're not effective as a team.

651

: 00:32:24

Yes.

652

: 00:32:24

And we increase the sales goals.

653

: 00:32:26

Yes.

654

: 00:32:27

And then.

655

: 00:32:28

You don't perform.

656

: 00:32:30

Prop the whip.

657

: 00:32:31

Because you can't.

658

: 00:32:32

And in this case, not only did they

increase sales goals without data,

659

: 00:32:35

without a plan, without any more

resources, any more people or whatever.

660

: 00:32:37

Yeah.

661

: 00:32:38

We're just gonna like go faster.

662

: 00:32:39

Right.

663

: 00:32:39

And start screaming at people.

664

: 00:32:41

They even then would like for each

week that you missed a goal, it was

665

: 00:32:44

gonna get heaped on to the next goal.

666

: 00:32:46

Yes.

667

: 00:32:46

Yes.

668

: 00:32:47

So next week some people are falling

farther and farther and farther behind.

669

: 00:32:50

Yes.

670

: 00:32:50

I could not believe it when you

were describing this situation to

671

: 00:32:54

me that this is what's happening.

672

: 00:32:55

No, I mean, in fact, we were a thousand,

um, units behind in like month four.

673

: 00:33:03

And each week, each week, each day

was pretty much adding anywhere

674

: 00:33:09

from 20 to 60 units on top of that.

675

: 00:33:12

And so this number is

exponentially growing.

676

: 00:33:17

And the whole organization, the ceo is

asking you What's our number this week?

677

: 00:33:21

What are you going to do about it?

678

: 00:33:22

How are you falling behind, da, da, da?

679

: 00:33:24

Every morning.

680

: 00:33:25

And this whole energy of all the

people pulling the data, talking

681

: 00:33:28

about it, responding to the

emails, her attention is on this.

682

: 00:33:31

And the whole time, it's pulling

you off the very activities.

683

: 00:33:35

That could generate more units.

684

: 00:33:36

Right.

685

: 00:33:37

Right.

686

: 00:33:38

Exactly.

687

: 00:33:38

And, when I'm voicing exactly what

I need to be able to get there, I'm

688

: 00:33:42

being told, no, you don't need that.

689

: 00:33:44

Or, no, that doesn't work.

690

: 00:33:45

Or, you know.

691

: 00:33:46

Right.

692

: 00:33:47

There's no space for

creativity, so why bother?

693

: 00:33:49

No space for creativity, so we're just

gonna live in this reactive, preemptive

694

: 00:33:53

world that our reactionary movements

are gonna suddenly change, right?

695

: 00:33:57

It's literally the definition of insanity.

696

: 00:34:00

Yeah.

697

: 00:34:02

Now let's focus on a win!

698

: 00:34:04

In this clip, Jeanna talks about a

"dynamic thing" that was a monthly

699

: 00:34:09

status report format that I suggested.

700

: 00:34:12

It was a game changer for

her with the leadership team.

701

: 00:34:15

And it positioned her as a key

contributor within the organization.

702

: 00:34:19

If you want to know more about

that report, you can check out

703

: 00:34:22

the free document I created

for you in the show notes.

704

: 00:34:26

Go to uplevelingwork.com/7

to get a copy of the template

705

: 00:34:31

Marco Polo Video Clip: Okay, sister,

you're not going to believe this.

706

: 00:34:35

Hope you're not dreading my Marco Polos.

707

: 00:34:38

Um, I had a really great day,

a really great day, super

708

: 00:34:43

productive, super positive.

709

: 00:34:45

We had our meeting, um, which usually I

dread going into, but today I was pumped.

710

: 00:34:52

I was so productive and I worked

through your dynamic thing and that

711

: 00:34:58

just made me feel empowered, honestly.

712

: 00:35:01

Um, I reached out to the other two

managers that are kind of at my

713

: 00:35:05

level and said, Hey, how do you

guys feel about meeting monthly?

714

: 00:35:09

I was like these every other week

we meet as a leadership meeting

715

: 00:35:12

between collections and donor

resources, but it is all collections.

716

: 00:35:19

Like, there is nothing ever

covered in donor resources, at all.

717

: 00:35:24

So, it's just not beneficial, kind of

a waste of my time, but I think she

718

: 00:35:29

wants us in the loop on things, and I

kind of fought to get into that room.

719

: 00:35:34

Now I'm regretting it.

720

: 00:35:35

So, anyhow, they were

both totally down for it.

721

: 00:35:39

I sent them that monthly status

update, and they were really

722

: 00:35:44

impressed, and were like, yes.

723

: 00:35:48

So...

724

: 00:35:49

So that felt good.

725

: 00:35:50

And it just really felt like I was

had my aces in the places, right?

726

: 00:35:55

Like I felt empowered.

727

: 00:35:56

I felt clear vision.

728

: 00:35:58

I just felt like I've

got my crap together.

729

: 00:36:00

I'm a boss woman is

what I felt like today.

730

: 00:36:02

And, um, I got a lot of really

positive feedback in the meeting.

731

: 00:36:06

Well, positive participation

in the meeting.

732

: 00:36:08

So that felt really good.

733

: 00:36:10

Michelle: Okay, I want to pull out

the monthly status report because

734

: 00:36:12

that felt like a game changer.

735

: 00:36:14

Like it really changed the

dynamic for you and how you felt

736

: 00:36:16

and how you showed up at work.

737

: 00:36:17

Jeanna: this was, um, a PDF that you had,

um, resourced me with that asked me a lot

738

: 00:36:24

of questions about like what my goals are

and how do I, what are my priorities this

739

: 00:36:29

week, what projects are on the table.

740

: 00:36:32

Um, it really encouraged me to be

very specific with what work is being

741

: 00:36:36

done and so I was able to, to name.

742

: 00:36:39

A project, for example,

and who's working on what?

743

: 00:36:42

And, um, this was a, um, a rolling

document, shared document that

744

: 00:36:48

we, um, worked on together.

745

: 00:36:50

And so then each week when we met,

it became this, what's the status

746

: 00:36:54

update and keep things moving.

747

: 00:36:55

And so for me, that was huge because in

this time where I had This was the time

748

: 00:37:00

where I had kind of decided I'm done, like

I'm out the door, um, but it helped, like

749

: 00:37:06

you were saying earlier where everything's

in your head and it feels vague and it's

750

: 00:37:09

very hard to pin down, this document

allowed me to put everything on paper and

751

: 00:37:13

to be able to see what I had done, like

it was very rewarding in that I could see

752

: 00:37:17

what I had done, but then also just as

um, a space, Saver, because what I had

753

: 00:37:24

noticed is so often we had done work.

754

: 00:37:26

once, twice, three times, four times

as people ask us for the information

755

: 00:37:32

because we didn't remember it or whatever.

756

: 00:37:34

And so we went and go to go

get the information again.

757

: 00:37:36

And so this became as space

saver where all the information

758

: 00:37:40

was always put on this.

759

: 00:37:41

So for example, with bids, if we're

sourcing out something we wanna buy,

760

: 00:37:47

One of the, the questions on there

has said, you know, lessons I've

761

: 00:37:50

learned and, um, I had learned that

they want a minimum of three quotes

762

: 00:37:58

and that as we present anything for

funding to have those with them.

763

: 00:38:02

And that was a lesson

learned the hard way.

764

: 00:38:03

In this case, it served us really well

because anytime we were, um, sourcing

765

: 00:38:07

out something, we'd put our three

bids in and we'd have them Right.

766

: 00:38:11

there in the document, save it, whatever.

767

: 00:38:13

And so when someone else said,

Oh yeah, I want to bring this.

768

: 00:38:16

Yes.

769

: 00:38:17

Project back to the table.

770

: 00:38:18

I need you to go get beds.

771

: 00:38:19

And it was like, I could pull up

the document, copy and paste it in

772

: 00:38:22

because we'd already done the work.

773

: 00:38:24

Yeah.

774

: 00:38:24

And so This really started to

help streamline and, um, helps

775

: 00:38:27

it, um, common practices and

776

: 00:38:30

Michelle: Right.

777

: 00:38:31

This is one of the things that I do

either when we have a culture of meetings

778

: 00:38:36

that don't seem to be going anywhere

where I feel like I'm saying the same

779

: 00:38:39

things to either the same people or

different people over and over or

780

: 00:38:42

get asked the same types of things.

781

: 00:38:44

It's like a department landing

page, dashboard kind of

782

: 00:38:48

what are our priorities is.

783

: 00:38:50

What are the key metrics?

784

: 00:38:52

Where are we at?

785

: 00:38:53

Status updates?

786

: 00:38:53

Because as we were talking about

at brunch, this is a skill you'll

787

: 00:38:56

bring to your next job, too.

788

: 00:38:58

Is like this idea, this discernment

between what is a meeting really for?

789

: 00:39:03

Because this is a common complaint

a lot of people come with.

790

: 00:39:05

It's like, we seem to have

like sometimes two, three hour

791

: 00:39:08

meetings as a leadership team.

792

: 00:39:09

And I don't, they feel like we're getting

anywhere, you know, kind of a thing.

793

: 00:39:12

And it's like, that's because

meetings are meant for discussions.

794

: 00:39:16

Are we, what questions are

driving our meetings as a

795

: 00:39:19

way to think about a meeting?

796

: 00:39:20

If you don't have a good question

you want to resolve or get more

797

: 00:39:23

information on or, you know, whatever,

then you may not meet a meeting.

798

: 00:39:26

If it's a one way information sharing,

a memo, a pre recorded video that's

799

: 00:39:31

available and sent via email or whatever,

where people can consume the information

800

: 00:39:36

asynchronously on their own time when

they can be fully present, because

801

: 00:39:40

having to sit through a meeting where it

doesn't, 60, to 90 percent of it doesn't

802

: 00:39:44

apply to you is like mind numbing and

a complete waste of time for people.

803

: 00:39:48

I just think we asynchronous

information sharing that more and

804

: 00:39:54

more companies should be using them

to, in order to get stuff done.

805

: 00:39:57

Jeanna: Absolutely.

806

: 00:39:57

Couldn't

807

: 00:39:58

Michelle: more.

808

: 00:39:58

Jeanna: Yeah.

809

: 00:40:01

Marco Polo Video Clip: The road,

rose colored glasses are off.

810

: 00:40:03

Like, I see red for what she

is and so it just annoys me.

811

: 00:40:07

I'm trying to reset the story that I tell

myself instead of, the pressure is too

812

: 00:40:10

intense and I shouldn't have to answer to

all these people that are coming at me.

813

: 00:40:15

And it's not even their job to

tell me these things and ask

814

: 00:40:18

for clarification because they

want to know sooner than later.

815

: 00:40:21

Which is frustrating.

816

: 00:40:23

It's like, just wait, I have two days,

leave me I have to tell you that.

817

: 00:40:27

Um, I need to reframe it as in I

am leaving and everybody's trying

818

: 00:40:31

to have whatever they need to be

prepared and ready before I go.

819

: 00:40:35

And that's my heart for them as well,

so if that's my heart, I need to reframe

820

: 00:40:38

the frustration and the indignation

because that's why I really feel like

821

: 00:40:41

every request is like, ugh, so annoying.

822

: 00:40:45

Yeah, so I'm re trying

to reset and reframe.

823

: 00:40:47

I mean, literally woke up just and

all the conversations I have to have.

824

: 00:40:51

I have an interview and a meeting today.

825

: 00:40:53

Why I'm in this communication meeting

when I'm out the door, I don't know.

826

: 00:40:57

Michelle: Okay, there's two things

I want to talk about in this clip.

827

: 00:40:59

One is the dread,

828

: 00:41:01

Jeanna: Mm hmm.

829

: 00:41:02

Michelle: which comes up again.

830

: 00:41:03

There's a good clip here at the end.

831

: 00:41:06

Marco Polo Video Clip: But the shoulds

and the judgment is like oozing out of me.

832

: 00:41:08

And it's ugly.

833

: 00:41:08

It's ugly.

834

: 00:41:09

I do not like it.

835

: 00:41:10

I do not like it.

836

: 00:41:11

So that's where I'm at trying to reset.

837

: 00:41:12

Especially when you wake up

just already dreading the day.

838

: 00:41:14

It's just...

839

: 00:41:17

Try to reset and get

in a good space, so...

840

: 00:41:19

Michelle: Okay, so just kind of,

I'm so judgy and I don't like

841

: 00:41:24

what I see, but this is different.

842

: 00:41:28

It feels like the energy of this

clip, it's like more self aware and

843

: 00:41:32

like you're allowing the judginess

to be there instead of resisting it

844

: 00:41:35

and beating yourself up too much.

845

: 00:41:37

I mean, there's a little bit of

self judgment there, but that's not

846

: 00:41:40

the main vibe of this clip anymore.

847

: 00:41:42

And it felt like, Whoa, you've

come a long way even in six months.

848

: 00:41:46

Do you see that or when you

watch us, what do you see?

849

: 00:41:49

Jeanna: I don't know.

850

: 00:41:50

I was fed up.

851

: 00:41:51

Yeah.

852

: 00:41:52

I was fed up and I was done.

853

: 00:41:54

And the fact what they were

choosing to come in the last

854

: 00:41:58

two days with was ridiculous.

855

: 00:42:02

So yeah.

856

: 00:42:03

Michelle: You're just mainly tired.

857

: 00:42:05

Jeanna: Tired and like, I think

in a way too it's like, look out.

858

: 00:42:10

You know what I mean?

859

: 00:42:10

Like these are not the

questions to be asking at this

860

: 00:42:12

time and you all are screwed.

861

: 00:42:14

Michelle: Yes, it was perspective, the

value of perspective being two days out.

862

: 00:42:19

And knowing this is not what we're doing.

863

: 00:42:21

Okay, but there's this other thing

that you do in other clips too.

864

: 00:42:23

Yes.

865

: 00:42:24

Which is this reframe, okay, reframe,

reframe, reframe, I need to reframe.

866

: 00:42:27

Like, it, what is going on in your

brain when you're saying that?

867

: 00:42:31

What are you thinking and what's

868

: 00:42:33

Jeanna: Yeah, I'm thinking about

everything you've taught me.

869

: 00:42:35

I'm thinking about, is this serving me?

870

: 00:42:39

I'm thinking about what is the

story I'm telling myself, right?

871

: 00:42:42

Like, because I'm living in the emotion.

872

: 00:42:43

I'm living in the emotion and the

frustration of it, which isn't helpful.

873

: 00:42:48

And, um, through all the work

that we've done, I know that I

874

: 00:42:53

can look at this differently.

875

: 00:42:54

So it's like re reframe your thoughts.

876

: 00:42:57

Right?

877

: 00:42:57

What's really happening?

878

: 00:42:59

What really are you upset over?

879

: 00:43:01

Um, is it valid or not?

880

: 00:43:03

Cause we've done a lot of work

around that, like okay, I get

881

: 00:43:06

that you feel that way, but Like.

882

: 00:43:07

these are legit, valid things that

you just have to deal with sometimes.

883

: 00:43:10

Um, and other times it's, um, actually,

you're right, you get to decide whether

884

: 00:43:16

you're going to let this in or not.

885

: 00:43:17

A boundary needs to be set here,

886

: 00:43:19

Michelle: Um, and, um, you know,

887

: 00:43:20

Jeanna: um,

888

: 00:43:20

and a lot of times I think, you

know, more often than not, that's

889

: 00:43:24

with my, me, with myself, right?

890

: 00:43:26

What's my boundary or, right?

891

: 00:43:28

My rut of thinking that

doesn't serve me well.

892

: 00:43:31

So, especially towards the end, I

feel like I started saying a lot in

893

: 00:43:35

this realm because it was so intense.

894

: 00:43:39

Um.

895

: 00:43:40

But I really, we started to say

that a lot towards the end, that

896

: 00:43:43

story I'm telling myself is.

897

: 00:43:45

Um, especially with the people

who are coming in, right?

898

: 00:43:49

Because if I want to leave well,

and they're trying to get the

899

: 00:43:52

information so that they can hit

the ground running when I'm gone,

900

: 00:43:56

then the frustration isn't valid.

901

: 00:43:58

Even though it is frustrating.

902

: 00:44:00

Michelle: It's not helpful.

903

: 00:44:01

Jeanna: right.

904

: 00:44:01

It's not helpful.

905

: 00:44:02

Right.

906

: 00:44:03

Because all of this has to take

place in order for me to leave well.

907

: 00:44:07

Michelle: I think you can get

that perspective when you have the

908

: 00:44:09

emotional intelligence of being able

to see it from their perspective.

909

: 00:44:13

There's compassion for that.

910

: 00:44:15

They're starting to have

to do the work themselves.

911

: 00:44:17

They're starting to see

how much is being left.

912

: 00:44:20

And understanding the value that was

there, that I hoped they would see all

913

: 00:44:24

Jeanna: Right.

914

: 00:44:25

And I think in this case,

it's with a specific person

915

: 00:44:28

that, that often triggered me.

916

: 00:44:30

Right.

917

: 00:44:30

And so we had done a lot of work

around this person, um, because

918

: 00:44:34

actually I think we're quite similar.

919

: 00:44:36

Michelle: That's the worst.

920

: 00:44:37

It is.

921

: 00:44:38

Jeanna: It is.

922

: 00:44:39

the worst, especially when you're dealing

with women and how they're treating you

923

: 00:44:42

and What's stopping your job or impeding

or getting in the way of, you know, and

924

: 00:44:47

I even as I look back I feel like I was

that for this person, but I don't even

925

: 00:44:52

know why, you know, and um, yeah, so

something to dig into I guess a little bit

926

: 00:44:58

Michelle: I wanted to look at

some of those clips where you're

927

: 00:45:00

reframing, where you're talking

about reframing in real time.

928

: 00:45:03

Basically, your frustration,

your indignation in this

929

: 00:45:07

case, the being so annoyed.

930

: 00:45:09

Reframing is a defense

mechanism of the seven.

931

: 00:45:12

Did you know that?

932

: 00:45:12

No.

933

: 00:45:14

Um.

934

: 00:45:14

It's

935

: 00:45:15

Jeanna: It's

936

: 00:45:15

Michelle: not a mechanism.

937

: 00:45:17

It is a defense mechanism.

938

: 00:45:19

I am doing

939

: 00:45:20

Jeanna: you told me do.

940

: 00:45:21

Michelle: is defensive here.

941

: 00:45:23

I want to distinguish the

defense mechanism from what

942

: 00:45:26

you're describing a little bit.

943

: 00:45:28

But know that this actually

is a superpower of the seven.

944

: 00:45:32

In that a seven, when ego is

running the show, when you're

945

: 00:45:36

operating on, in an unconscious

kind of automatic habitual space.

946

: 00:45:41

A seven will defend themselves

by reframing a situation and

947

: 00:45:45

looking at the silver lining.

948

: 00:45:47

Well, at least this.

949

: 00:45:48

Oh, yes.

950

: 00:45:48

I'm good at that.

951

: 00:45:49

And in the moment, it's like

they can see that silver lining

952

: 00:45:53

where it's like they don't even

acknowledge the other part of it.

953

: 00:45:59

Like it doesn't exist to them.

954

: 00:46:00

It's, that's the power of the seven brain.

955

: 00:46:03

But what we're doing here from like

a cognitive behavioral Standpoint

956

: 00:46:08

that I think is the practice that

you're trying to do here is to make

957

: 00:46:13

your thinking visible to yourself

and practice mental flexibility of

958

: 00:46:17

what else could I be thinking here?

959

: 00:46:20

And how are my thoughts driving my

feelings in this Where do I have options?

960

: 00:46:26

If I want to feel a different way,

what would I need to be thinking?

961

: 00:46:29

Yes,

962

: 00:46:30

Jeanna: that's huge.

963

: 00:46:31

Yes, That's what I'm

964

: 00:46:31

Michelle: what you're doing.

965

: 00:46:33

That's what I thought.

966

: 00:46:34

And I just wanted to make that distinction

because some people who have studied

967

: 00:46:38

the Enneagram might come in and say,

Oh, you're operating on automatic.

968

: 00:46:42

You're reframing your content.

969

: 00:46:44

We're just watching you jump out of it and

I'm like, no, this is different than that.

970

: 00:46:48

That reframe is happening in the

background without you even realizing.

971

: 00:46:51

You just jump to like, where's the party?

972

: 00:46:53

I don't like this.

973

: 00:46:54

This is painful.

974

: 00:46:55

I'm not doing this anymore.

975

: 00:46:56

Or, you know, I've got, I've got

better, better things to do here.

976

: 00:47:01

Um, but we are watching you in these

videos sit in a level of discomfort.

977

: 00:47:08

Jeanna: Oh yes.

978

: 00:47:09

Michelle: That I'm not sure you would

normally process in this way if we hadn't

979

: 00:47:14

created a container for you to do that.

980

: 00:47:16

Yeah.

981

: 00:47:18

Jeanna: And be in a space where

I have to continue to show up.

982

: 00:47:21

I think, you know, a lot of my past,

um, work, I could just show up.

983

: 00:47:28

Right.

984

: 00:47:28

Even as I was training or running

operations or, you know what I mean,

985

: 00:47:32

managing people on different levels.

986

: 00:47:34

Um, I could just show up.

987

: 00:47:36

You know, you could shake off the

day and not think about it again.

988

: 00:47:39

But this role, this position that

I was in required me to continue

989

: 00:47:43

to show up and to continue to hold

the container for everyone else.

990

: 00:47:49

And so, not only did I have to

function within it consistently,

991

: 00:47:52

but I had, I was navigating.

992

: 00:47:54

Like, How do I work through these?

993

: 00:47:58

Um, obstacles that keep showing up.

994

: 00:48:01

And I think that there was a space

that I was tired, I didn't know how to

995

: 00:48:06

keep doing it, and yet this is my job.

996

: 00:48:09

And at this time we hadn't really

started, you know, exploring it elsewhere.

997

: 00:48:14

So it was like, how do I be okay?

998

: 00:48:15

in it?

999

: 00:48:16

Michelle: Right.

: 1000

00:48:17,155 --> 00:48:18,015

How do I be okay?

: 1001

00:48:18,415 --> 00:48:19,245

I Yeah.

: 1002

00:48:19,975 --> 00:48:23,655

I think a big part of coaching,

I know I've probably said that

: 1003

00:48:23,655 --> 00:48:28,895

like six times, but a big part of

coaching is just not feeling alone

: 1004

00:48:29,375 --> 00:48:31,515

the muck what is going on for you.

: 1005

00:48:31,555 --> 00:48:32,515

Yeah, absolutely.

: 1006

00:48:32,665 --> 00:48:36,570

Like having someone sit

with you and be like, Yeah.

: 1007

00:48:37,020 --> 00:48:37,470

Yeah.

: 1008

00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:38,310

I see you.

: 1009

00:48:38,380 --> 00:48:39,350

This is intense.

: 1010

00:48:39,370 --> 00:48:39,580

Yeah.

: 1011

00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:41,780

It's not always going to feel this way.

: 1012

00:48:42,140 --> 00:48:46,620

Let's discern the ways in which

you are contributing to this.

: 1013

00:48:46,630 --> 00:48:47,450

What is optional?

: 1014

00:48:47,450 --> 00:48:50,450

What do we have agency or

power or authority over?

: 1015

00:48:50,570 --> 00:48:50,860

Yes.

: 1016

00:48:50,890 --> 00:48:51,780

Where can we shift?

: 1017

00:48:51,990 --> 00:48:56,090

But also allowing you to feel

the way you feel is part of that

: 1018

00:48:56,090 --> 00:48:57,960

process through to the other side.

: 1019

00:48:57,995 --> 00:49:02,145

Jeanna: Yes, and I would say that it

started with, uh, how do I do this?

: 1020

00:49:02,365 --> 00:49:02,625

Yeah.

: 1021

00:49:02,695 --> 00:49:04,555

Help me out of this situation.

: 1022

00:49:04,565 --> 00:49:04,615

Yeah.

: 1023

00:49:04,855 --> 00:49:07,575

Right, because I do think that

that's a natural starting point.

: 1024

00:49:08,265 --> 00:49:08,845

And.

: 1025

00:49:08,895 --> 00:49:13,915

the more that we reflected

and looked at the thought

: 1026

00:49:13,915 --> 00:49:15,895

processes, the more that changed.

: 1027

00:49:15,895 --> 00:49:16,335

Yeah.

: 1028

00:49:17,425 --> 00:49:19,885

Michelle: Going back to Jeanna's

last series of clips that we

: 1029

00:49:19,885 --> 00:49:23,425

played, I said I also wanted to

talk about this idea of dread.

: 1030

00:49:23,905 --> 00:49:27,805

And one of the things that we coached

on a lot was this idea that dread is not

: 1031

00:49:27,805 --> 00:49:30,385

so much an emotion as a thought process.

: 1032

00:49:30,865 --> 00:49:35,905

It's not that it's not an emotion,

it's just that it's a really big clue

: 1033

00:49:36,085 --> 00:49:39,355

that when this emotion of dread shows

up, that you've got a thought process,

: 1034

00:49:39,355 --> 00:49:43,585

or a story or a tape running that

is driving that particular emotion.

: 1035

00:49:43,695 --> 00:49:48,615

And I shared that if she could

listen for that story, she could

: 1036

00:49:48,615 --> 00:49:49,845

start to shift to everything.

: 1037

00:49:50,565 --> 00:49:53,925

And over a couple of months, we got

to the point where dread was this

: 1038

00:49:53,955 --> 00:49:58,935

early warning sign to help her see

where she had agency to shift things.

: 1039

00:49:59,535 --> 00:50:03,855

And as she started to tell a different

story or practice a mental flexibility

: 1040

00:50:03,855 --> 00:50:07,955

about what this could mean or

interpreting the circumstances in

: 1041

00:50:07,955 --> 00:50:12,785

front of her, she started to feel

more empowered instead of defeated.

: 1042

00:50:13,355 --> 00:50:14,285

How cool is that?

: 1043

00:50:16,435 --> 00:50:18,845

Marco Polo Video Clip: The other thing

that I really appreciated was dread.

: 1044

00:50:19,205 --> 00:50:22,475

You told me that dread is not an

emotion, it's a thought process.

: 1045

00:50:22,575 --> 00:50:24,265

And that was huge for me.

: 1046

00:50:24,295 --> 00:50:25,225

Huge for me.

: 1047

00:50:25,575 --> 00:50:30,975

Um, because it helped me realize, uh,

my role in it and how to change it.

: 1048

00:50:32,085 --> 00:50:32,765

How to change it.

: 1049

00:50:32,915 --> 00:50:33,225

That

: 1050

00:50:34,695 --> 00:50:38,475

Shifting gears a little bit- our

whole conversation got me thinking

: 1051

00:50:38,475 --> 00:50:39,985

more broadly about coaching....

: 1052

00:50:40,564 --> 00:50:43,874

Michelle: Some of the clips

reflected things back to me

: 1053

00:50:43,894 --> 00:50:45,164

that I would do differently.

: 1054

00:50:46,074 --> 00:50:49,574

And so as I finish up this

advanced certification in feminist

: 1055

00:50:49,574 --> 00:50:53,244

coaching, I can feel myself up

leveling through the process

: 1056

00:50:53,764 --> 00:50:54,164

Jeanna: welcome.

: 1057

00:50:54,164 --> 00:50:56,412

Thank you.

: 1058

00:50:56,412 --> 00:50:58,660

It's so

: 1059

00:50:58,764 --> 00:51:01,854

Michelle: I can see more clearly

that level of conditioning

: 1060

00:51:01,854 --> 00:51:03,724

that women experience.

: 1061

00:51:04,084 --> 00:51:05,364

So I can tell you that's normal.

: 1062

00:51:05,364 --> 00:51:06,404

That's how a brain works.

: 1063

00:51:07,169 --> 00:51:12,809

But there's this other thing because we

were raised in a conservative Christian

: 1064

00:51:12,809 --> 00:51:17,649

environment in the United States at

this point in history It's just like the

: 1065

00:51:17,659 --> 00:51:21,449

messages you receive in the water around

what it means to be a good person or what

: 1066

00:51:21,449 --> 00:51:23,209

success looks like and stuff like that.

: 1067

00:51:23,539 --> 00:51:29,039

It has me thinking much more deeply

about that and trusting in a more

: 1068

00:51:29,189 --> 00:51:37,079

inherently feminist rather than structured

top down form of Like leadership.

: 1069

00:51:37,159 --> 00:51:37,539

Yes.

: 1070

00:51:38,319 --> 00:51:41,169

Both at work and in a

coaching relationship.

: 1071

00:51:42,019 --> 00:51:46,889

Because sometimes, often, all the time,

actually, people come to me because

: 1072

00:51:46,889 --> 00:51:48,059

they want an answer to a problem.

: 1073

00:51:48,059 --> 00:51:48,869

They want relief.

: 1074

00:51:49,319 --> 00:51:51,519

So they come to a session

and they're like, here's my

: 1075

00:51:51,519 --> 00:51:52,329

problem, tell me what to do.

: 1076

00:51:52,389 --> 00:51:52,899

Yes.

: 1077

00:51:53,689 --> 00:51:57,049

And the capacity building as a coach

that I'm really interested in doing

: 1078

00:51:57,599 --> 00:52:00,189

is helping you build the capacity Yes.

: 1079

00:52:01,354 --> 00:52:01,914

Jeanna: Yes.

: 1080

00:52:04,824 --> 00:52:05,434

Yes.

: 1081

00:52:05,849 --> 00:52:09,639

Michelle: And learn how to make decisions

you're really happy with can live with.

: 1082

00:52:10,329 --> 00:52:12,599

And that all comes from a

place of like up leveling your

: 1083

00:52:12,599 --> 00:52:14,059

self worth, your self esteem.

: 1084

00:52:14,124 --> 00:52:14,674

Jeanna: Yes.

: 1085

00:52:14,904 --> 00:52:17,194

Which only comes from doing the work.

: 1086

00:52:17,644 --> 00:52:21,264

So if there's nothing else that I'm

saying, it's just trust the process.

: 1087

00:52:21,324 --> 00:52:22,884

Because it really does work.

: 1088

00:52:22,974 --> 00:52:26,974

Just having someone there

helping you see things clearly.

: 1089

00:52:27,174 --> 00:52:29,024

Or see your thought processes.

: 1090

00:52:29,334 --> 00:52:31,264

Or see your emotions.

: 1091

00:52:31,264 --> 00:52:32,944

You know, drag out your emotions.

: 1092

00:52:33,004 --> 00:52:34,504

Or why does it really bother you.

: 1093

00:52:34,654 --> 00:52:34,684

Yes.

: 1094

00:52:34,769 --> 00:52:35,169

Michelle: Yeah.

: 1095

00:52:35,659 --> 00:52:36,049

Yeah.

: 1096

00:52:36,279 --> 00:52:38,459

Just bringing that stuff

to and the surface.

: 1097

00:52:38,739 --> 00:52:39,739

And it does take time.

: 1098

00:52:39,739 --> 00:52:40,299

That's the other thing.

: 1099

00:52:40,299 --> 00:52:45,259

clips go back to November of: 2022

: 1100

00:52:46,419 --> 00:52:50,259

And so the coaching that happened is,

you know, almost over a full year.

: 1101

00:52:51,199 --> 00:52:54,479

And it, I just pulled these because

it was like the most acute, like it

: 1102

00:52:54,489 --> 00:52:55,529

just kept getting worse and worse.

: 1103

00:52:55,529 --> 00:52:56,369

Yeah, this is an

: 1104

00:52:57,154 --> 00:52:58,084

Jeanna: intense time.

: 1105

00:52:58,444 --> 00:53:00,384

Trust me, we've been doing

this work a lot longer

: 1106

00:53:00,419 --> 00:53:04,569

Michelle: longer Yeah, but it can be hard

at first when you think about committing

: 1107

00:53:04,569 --> 00:53:07,669

to a coaching relationship over a long,

like what are we even going to talk about?

: 1108

00:53:07,689 --> 00:53:09,019

I want relief right now.

: 1109

00:53:09,359 --> 00:53:13,799

Like the reality is that we can

set a strategy like with time

: 1110

00:53:13,799 --> 00:53:16,329

management or the goal setting

stuff that were kind of doing.

: 1111

00:53:17,049 --> 00:53:19,499

And you know what to do and

then you go and practice it.

: 1112

00:53:19,849 --> 00:53:23,669

And it works like the first week, but

then week two, or even maybe it doesn't

: 1113

00:53:23,669 --> 00:53:24,769

even work the first time you try it.

: 1114

00:53:24,789 --> 00:53:28,169

Then week two, something comes up and

what the reality is, once you have the

: 1115

00:53:28,169 --> 00:53:31,739

strategy, the real work of coaching

is in the like, all the things that

: 1116

00:53:31,739 --> 00:53:35,679

come up after that fact that are

the real reason preventing you from

: 1117

00:53:35,679 --> 00:53:36,699

doing the thing you wanted to do.

: 1118

00:53:37,399 --> 00:53:42,119

It's not necessarily that the

strategy is the magic easy button.

: 1119

00:53:42,159 --> 00:53:42,539

Right.

: 1120

00:53:43,189 --> 00:53:46,689

And that can be like, oh,

frustrating, I think a

: 1121

00:53:46,694 --> 00:53:47,234

Jeanna: Yeah.

: 1122

00:53:47,434 --> 00:53:51,214

Well, and I think for, for me too,

there's a couple different things that

: 1123

00:53:51,214 --> 00:53:56,874

you were wanting me to do or try, um,

that I didn't want to do because it's

: 1124

00:53:58,279 --> 00:54:00,069

It's, I didn't want to work that hard.

: 1125

00:54:00,529 --> 00:54:03,769

And yet you provide the

tools and everything.

: 1126

00:54:03,789 --> 00:54:08,699

And upon implementing, while

initially it did take a little bit.

: 1127

00:54:08,699 --> 00:54:13,239

of work, upon implementing, it

just made everything else easier.

: 1128

00:54:13,299 --> 00:54:18,169

Because it, it allowed me to focus

in to constantly have a goal.

: 1129

00:54:18,339 --> 00:54:20,839

Um, in front of me at all times.

: 1130

00:54:21,139 --> 00:54:24,229

Um, in my seven world, I

like to live everywhere.

: 1131

00:54:24,489 --> 00:54:29,319

Um, I mean, focusing and, um,

organizing is not my strong suit.

: 1132

00:54:29,699 --> 00:54:30,319

Um.

: 1133

00:54:31,304 --> 00:54:35,834

But having those documents of things

that you provided me with that, that

: 1134

00:54:35,834 --> 00:54:38,174

was life changing, work changing.

: 1135

00:54:38,194 --> 00:54:40,854

I feel like that upleveled me

instantly when I started following

: 1136

00:54:40,854 --> 00:54:45,274

those because it allowed me to keep

my work goals at the forefront.

: 1137

00:54:45,464 --> 00:54:47,144

It allowed me to see the

projects I was doing.

: 1138

00:54:47,144 --> 00:54:52,534

And in this time when it was very

intense and I felt so frustrated at

: 1139

00:54:52,534 --> 00:54:56,604

work, it allowed me to see what I

was accomplishing and to see what was

: 1140

00:54:56,614 --> 00:54:59,024

happening because there's so much.

: 1141

00:54:59,564 --> 00:55:02,414

Ick and yuck and grossness around it all.

: 1142

00:55:02,514 --> 00:55:04,564

I felt like I wasn't

getting anything done.

: 1143

00:55:04,564 --> 00:55:08,444

And so for that, those pieces that

were provided along the way, where I

: 1144

00:55:08,444 --> 00:55:14,414

initially, like, you know, resented or

pushed back yes, um, pushed back against,

: 1145

00:55:14,504 --> 00:55:17,314

um, were actually lifesavers in the end.

: 1146

00:55:17,624 --> 00:55:22,304

And so, as I go into my new role and my

new job, like, I'm bringing those tools

: 1147

00:55:22,304 --> 00:55:23,874

with me because I know how well they work.

: 1148

00:55:24,659 --> 00:55:25,649

Michelle: little That's awesome.

: 1149

00:55:26,089 --> 00:55:28,789

Jeanna: I definitely think there's

a piece of that, that, you know,

: 1150

00:55:28,789 --> 00:55:33,659

people who want immediate answers or

immediate relief, um, it may come in

: 1151

00:55:33,659 --> 00:55:35,199

so many surprising different ways.

: 1152

00:55:35,834 --> 00:55:39,144

Because you are a wealth of information

and the amount of resources that

: 1153

00:55:39,144 --> 00:55:42,664

you have and if you don't know this

about Michelle, she is a fixer.

: 1154

00:55:42,994 --> 00:55:46,984

She wants to fix the problem for you

and so she'll provide you with all these

: 1155

00:55:46,984 --> 00:55:50,614

tools and then she'll go home and spend

seven hours, you know, creating this

: 1156

00:55:50,634 --> 00:55:52,794

tool that helps you learn how to do it.

: 1157

00:55:52,794 --> 00:55:56,674

You know, and I do think part of

that is sister world, you know,

: 1158

00:55:56,674 --> 00:55:58,024

I have the privilege of that.

: 1159

00:55:58,314 --> 00:56:00,694

But, um, but you are naturally like that

: 1160

00:56:00,819 --> 00:56:02,659

Michelle: do that all my clients really.

: 1161

00:56:02,699 --> 00:56:06,569

Like the thing about and the reason

I only take on a handful of clients

: 1162

00:56:06,569 --> 00:56:08,979

at one time is because I'm all in.

: 1163

00:56:08,989 --> 00:56:11,329

I'm fully invested in your corner.

: 1164

00:56:11,799 --> 00:56:15,629

I'm your support person that you can rely

on to that can help you be an objective

: 1165

00:56:15,629 --> 00:56:20,769

third party to see this more clearly

and To just gently nudge you back into

: 1166

00:56:20,769 --> 00:56:22,259

like, oh, have you thought about this?

: 1167

00:56:22,309 --> 00:56:22,909

What is this?

: 1168

00:56:22,919 --> 00:56:24,029

Can I offer this thought?

: 1169

00:56:24,329 --> 00:56:27,629

Let me reflect back what you just said,

you know Like is that what you really

: 1170

00:56:27,629 --> 00:56:30,979

mean or what's going on do you like, you

know this reason or that kind of thing?

: 1171

00:56:30,999 --> 00:56:34,584

I think the other thing at play here

is that What you said there, I didn't

: 1172

00:56:34,584 --> 00:56:38,294

really want to work that hard, is kind of

important to acknowledge, like, sometimes

: 1173

00:56:38,294 --> 00:56:42,134

in a coaching relationship, you can feel

like you're drinking from the fire hose.

: 1174

00:56:42,234 --> 00:56:44,194

Because there's, like, all this new stuff.

: 1175

00:56:44,524 --> 00:56:48,164

The coach you went to, like, is trained

in, like, for me, the Enneagram, or, you

: 1176

00:56:48,164 --> 00:56:51,614

know, like, ThoughtWork, or Cognitive

Behavioral Therapy, or whatever.

: 1177

00:56:51,884 --> 00:56:54,874

And you're, like, so thirsty for

that thing, and you want to learn.

: 1178

00:56:55,064 --> 00:56:57,564

And sometimes your brain is

not in a space where you can

: 1179

00:56:57,564 --> 00:56:59,074

absorb at all, and that's okay.

: 1180

00:56:59,134 --> 00:56:59,634

Yes.

: 1181

00:57:00,124 --> 00:57:00,444

Like, it's...

: 1182

00:57:00,754 --> 00:57:04,314

You have to trust that whatever

you're gleaning right now is enough.

: 1183

00:57:04,344 --> 00:57:05,004

Yes.

: 1184

00:57:05,344 --> 00:57:10,344

And that over time, you'll be able

to revisit and practice these a way.

: 1185

00:57:10,754 --> 00:57:15,704

And that idea of consent is so

important in, and different in a

: 1186

00:57:15,704 --> 00:57:17,134

feminist coaching relationship.

: 1187

00:57:17,514 --> 00:57:22,354

I want to point out because a lot of times

in traditional coaching relationships, you

: 1188

00:57:22,354 --> 00:57:27,054

will subject yourself to the process or

the authority of the coach that you hire.

: 1189

00:57:27,094 --> 00:57:27,404

Right.

: 1190

00:57:28,124 --> 00:57:30,364

And there's a very kind of command.

: 1191

00:57:30,954 --> 00:57:33,714

I keep saying command and

control, but it's just structured

: 1192

00:57:33,744 --> 00:57:35,234

hierarchical is what it is.

: 1193

00:57:35,854 --> 00:57:38,684

Relationship where I have

information that I'm imparting to

: 1194

00:57:38,684 --> 00:57:40,324

you, I know the right or best way.

: 1195

00:57:40,864 --> 00:57:43,554

And the truth is, you're the

authority on your own life.

: 1196

00:57:43,684 --> 00:57:44,164

Jeanna: Yeah.

: 1197

00:57:44,704 --> 00:57:47,094

Michelle: And you probably do

know what's best for you, and

: 1198

00:57:47,104 --> 00:57:50,964

you probably already have the

resources you need to be successful.

: 1199

00:57:51,714 --> 00:57:55,874

And I really feel like my job as a coach

is to help you rely on things you already

: 1200

00:57:55,874 --> 00:57:59,104

know, and help you fill in the gaps that

you've identified you need right now.

: 1201

00:57:59,184 --> 00:57:59,754

Jeanna: Yeah.

: 1202

00:58:00,194 --> 00:58:03,514

Michelle: And that's really unique

and fun and different and can be hard

: 1203

00:58:03,514 --> 00:58:05,704

and it can be uncomfortable because

it's like just tell me what that is.

: 1204

00:58:06,284 --> 00:58:07,184

Yes, absolutely.

: 1205

00:58:07,859 --> 00:58:11,519

Jeanna: And I would say like,

just even the hierarchy, um,

: 1206

00:58:11,529 --> 00:58:13,199

or the authoritative, right?

: 1207

00:58:13,199 --> 00:58:16,439

It's what my generation

tend to grew up in.

: 1208

00:58:16,749 --> 00:58:19,919

Whether it's in our family,

whether it's in our church space,

: 1209

00:58:19,939 --> 00:58:21,899

whether it's in the workforce.

: 1210

00:58:22,099 --> 00:58:23,249

It's all hierarchical.

: 1211

00:58:23,259 --> 00:58:27,759

So, the way that you just said

that, um, it's already within us.

: 1212

00:58:27,769 --> 00:58:30,649

It's like, I get that,

but I didn't know that.

: 1213

00:58:31,069 --> 00:58:33,619

Because I've never been

given the autonomy.

: 1214

00:58:33,864 --> 00:58:35,464

to pick that up and take

: 1215

00:58:35,694 --> 00:58:39,564

Michelle: right, because your get

your hand gets slapped or you're you

: 1216

00:58:39,574 --> 00:58:41,724

know you're told get back in line.

: 1217

00:58:41,734 --> 00:58:42,054

Yes.

: 1218

00:58:42,724 --> 00:58:43,144

Jeanna: Yes.

: 1219

00:58:43,204 --> 00:58:48,004

And I would even say it came out

in my own manager style because I

: 1220

00:58:48,034 --> 00:58:49,804

had just always got in line, right?

: 1221

00:58:49,804 --> 00:58:50,854

Fall in line, soldier.

: 1222

00:58:51,234 --> 00:58:55,274

Um, and modeled that because

that's what I was taught.

: 1223

00:58:55,304 --> 00:59:01,164

And so as a manager, trying to, you know,

portray that in the way that I manage

: 1224

00:59:01,164 --> 00:59:05,529

with this younger generation coming

up behind me who really is Screw you.

: 1225

00:59:06,179 --> 00:59:06,989

I'm not listening.

: 1226

00:59:07,179 --> 00:59:08,949

You want me to do it because you said so?

: 1227

00:59:08,949 --> 00:59:09,999

Like, I don't think so.

: 1228

00:59:10,789 --> 00:59:13,369

And it's like, this

doesn't make sense to me.

: 1229

00:59:13,369 --> 00:59:15,039

Like, you fall in line.

: 1230

00:59:15,049 --> 00:59:16,639

What don't you get about that?

: 1231

00:59:17,269 --> 00:59:20,839

And so I would say for a lot of

the manager side of it, that was

: 1232

00:59:20,839 --> 00:59:23,439

really helpful was me fighting that.

: 1233

00:59:23,639 --> 00:59:25,379

Why won't they just get in line?

: 1234

00:59:25,889 --> 00:59:26,339

You know?

: 1235

00:59:26,569 --> 00:59:26,939

Michelle: right.

: 1236

00:59:27,429 --> 00:59:31,039

It's on the, when you're on the other

side, like when you commit to having

: 1237

00:59:31,229 --> 00:59:34,689

consensual relationships, you know,

kind of a thing with people, where

: 1238

00:59:34,689 --> 00:59:38,339

there's adult to adult relationships

at work, instead of adult to child

: 1239

00:59:38,339 --> 00:59:41,799

or whatever, being on the other

side of like, the person doesn't

: 1240

00:59:41,799 --> 00:59:45,029

give you consent, but you really

want them to do this specific thing.

: 1241

00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:48,799

That's like, requires you to be

in a different headspace and have

: 1242

00:59:48,799 --> 00:59:51,599

different skills for how to navigate

: 1243

00:59:51,699 --> 00:59:52,279

Jeanna: Right.

: 1244

00:59:52,579 --> 00:59:53,119

and

: 1245

00:59:53,139 --> 00:59:55,519

for me, that looked like

micromanaging, right?

: 1246

00:59:55,559 --> 00:59:59,919

I became a huge micromanager, which didn't

serve anybody, because it didn't help

: 1247

00:59:59,919 --> 01:00:01,439

them to do their job more effectively.

: 1248

01:00:01,469 --> 01:00:06,449

It, it, it coached them to come

ask me for everything, which

: 1249

01:00:06,469 --> 01:00:08,379

then I resented, you know.

: 1250

01:00:08,389 --> 01:00:10,129

Michelle: And created so

much more work for you.

: 1251

01:00:10,159 --> 01:00:10,759

So much more

: 1252

01:00:10,869 --> 01:00:11,189

Jeanna: work.

: 1253

01:00:11,689 --> 01:00:11,899

Michelle: Yeah.

: 1254

01:00:11,899 --> 01:00:14,809

And then you're like

resentful, frustrated.

: 1255

01:00:15,139 --> 01:00:17,989

you, but they don't really

have the capacity to, they're

: 1256

01:00:17,989 --> 01:00:21,079

just passive consumers of the

information of the process that

: 1257

01:00:21,079 --> 01:00:24,109

you've created without understanding

the why or the what Yes and how

: 1258

01:00:24,229 --> 01:00:24,799

Jeanna: I get here?

: 1259

01:00:24,919 --> 01:00:25,099

Michelle: Right.

: 1260

01:00:25,929 --> 01:00:27,169

Jeanna: Why can't they just fall in line?

: 1261

01:00:28,319 --> 01:00:31,129

And then you said adult to

adult relationship, and I'm

: 1262

01:00:31,129 --> 01:00:32,829

like, that's not my experience.

: 1263

01:00:33,099 --> 01:00:34,889

My experience is adult to

: 1264

01:00:35,709 --> 01:00:36,129

Michelle: Right.

: 1265

01:00:36,359 --> 01:00:41,009

Jeanna: a generation of do it for me

and I don't want to work that hard

: 1266

01:00:41,019 --> 01:00:42,809

and you're not paying me enough.

: 1267

01:00:43,499 --> 01:00:48,479

Michelle: I think there is a

group of people who are not

: 1268

01:00:48,539 --> 01:00:49,859

willing to settle anymore.

: 1269

01:00:50,594 --> 01:00:55,114

And, or are more attuned to their own

intuitive, like this doesn't feel good,

: 1270

01:00:55,224 --> 01:00:59,494

and they have a different perspective

around I can get another job, I can,

: 1271

01:00:59,494 --> 01:01:03,364

I deserve better, or whatever, that

for those of us who were raised by

: 1272

01:01:03,364 --> 01:01:07,924

boomers, you know, who were very like,

you know, In line, this is what you do.

: 1273

01:01:07,924 --> 01:01:09,184

You work at the same company forever.

: 1274

01:01:09,184 --> 01:01:09,894

You're not entitled

: 1275

01:01:10,019 --> 01:01:11,239

Jeanna: You Work your way up.

: 1276

01:01:11,314 --> 01:01:12,204

Michelle: Pleasure is like...

: 1277

01:01:13,249 --> 01:01:13,759

Jeanna: Pleasure is what

: 1278

01:01:13,834 --> 01:01:14,112

Michelle: do at home.

: 1279

01:01:14,112 --> 01:01:14,574

What's that?

: 1280

01:01:15,389 --> 01:01:15,409

Jeanna: If

: 1281

01:01:15,414 --> 01:01:16,034

Michelle: If you're lucky.

: 1282

01:01:16,914 --> 01:01:19,554

You know, then you go to, you

go to church and you serve and

: 1283

01:01:19,554 --> 01:01:20,974

that should be your pleasure.

: 1284

01:01:20,994 --> 01:01:23,764

You know, in some ways, you know, in

that kind of thing, it's like, it's just

: 1285

01:01:24,319 --> 01:01:26,399

It's just, there's a lot of layers to it.

: 1286

01:01:26,989 --> 01:01:30,399

And I think in a lot of ways

this generation gets blamed

: 1287

01:01:30,399 --> 01:01:32,269

and in some ways it's not fair.

: 1288

01:01:32,489 --> 01:01:36,099

But also, I think there's this really

beautiful thing that they're reflecting

: 1289

01:01:36,109 --> 01:01:39,059

back to us that's hard to see because

we don't feel like we can claim it

: 1290

01:01:40,039 --> 01:01:40,489

Jeanna: Oh, I would.

: 1291

01:01:40,539 --> 01:01:41,529

a million percent.

: 1292

01:01:42,209 --> 01:01:42,599

Yeah.

: 1293

01:01:44,006 --> 01:01:47,636

Michelle: Before we wrap it up, I

had to share one last message with

: 1294

01:01:47,636 --> 01:01:51,806

you where Jeanna reflected back

to me what she appreciated about

: 1295

01:01:51,806 --> 01:01:53,336

coaching with me during this time.

: 1296

01:01:55,379 --> 01:01:56,299

Marco Polo Video Clip: That is coaching.

: 1297

01:01:56,319 --> 01:01:57,389

It's like, where's the need?

: 1298

01:01:57,799 --> 01:01:59,179

What do they need addressed right now?

: 1299

01:01:59,209 --> 01:02:00,309

What's going to be the most helpful?

: 1300

01:02:00,489 --> 01:02:01,769

Like, what do you do with me?

: 1301

01:02:01,769 --> 01:02:05,139

You address the thing

that's happening right now.

: 1302

01:02:05,319 --> 01:02:07,919

And within that, you remind me

what my thought patterns are.

: 1303

01:02:07,929 --> 01:02:09,579

You remind me my motivations, desires.

: 1304

01:02:09,579 --> 01:02:11,299

You remind me about who's around me.

: 1305

01:02:11,929 --> 01:02:14,279

And how they fit into it and what

they're feeling and what motivates them.

: 1306

01:02:14,569 --> 01:02:19,909

And then you talk about like, right,

you become very objective to help

: 1307

01:02:19,909 --> 01:02:23,209

me get out of the emotion, get out

of whatever the problem is and start

: 1308

01:02:23,209 --> 01:02:24,349

looking at it from different ways.

: 1309

01:02:24,529 --> 01:02:28,169

And then they become very manageable

or you hand me the tools that all of

: 1310

01:02:28,169 --> 01:02:30,329

a sudden make things very manageable.

: 1311

01:02:30,559 --> 01:02:32,599

And even though I don't want to do

the work, I'm thankful that I did

: 1312

01:02:32,599 --> 01:02:34,359

because it's night and day difference.

: 1313

01:02:34,359 --> 01:02:42,319

And so really that I feel like is

your like most valuable Um, strength.

: 1314

01:02:43,239 --> 01:02:46,529

Your most valuable ability is to

be able to assess the problem and

: 1315

01:02:46,729 --> 01:02:48,038

talk directly to it in the moment.

: 1316

01:02:49,494 --> 01:02:51,624

Michelle: Well, hopefully this

gives everyone a little bit of

: 1317

01:02:51,624 --> 01:02:55,413

flavor of the reality of what long

term coaching looks and feels like.

: 1318

01:02:55,464 --> 01:02:56,594

And also...

: 1319

01:02:57,364 --> 01:03:03,214

How you can go in six months time

from like, I can't do this anymore,

: 1320

01:03:03,224 --> 01:03:10,134

I don't see a way out having landed

a dream job at a company that's

: 1321

01:03:10,424 --> 01:03:14,574

hired you and paying you more than

they've ever paid an entry person.

: 1322

01:03:14,833 --> 01:03:15,203

Jeanna: Yep.

: 1323

01:03:16,074 --> 01:03:22,454

Michelle: And, has people and resources

in place for you to delegate to, who are

: 1324

01:03:22,454 --> 01:03:27,774

competent and capable, are teaching you

things, and who are trusting that you are

: 1325

01:03:27,774 --> 01:03:30,884

going to do what you say you're going to

do and you're going to figure this out.

: 1326

01:03:31,644 --> 01:03:34,424

Night and day work experiences.

: 1327

01:03:35,144 --> 01:03:38,524

And just like knowing that those

opportunities are out there.

: 1328

01:03:38,589 --> 01:03:39,589

Jeanna: They're out there.

: 1329

01:03:39,879 --> 01:03:42,989

and also what you're doing is

shaping you to be ready for them.

: 1330

01:03:43,109 --> 01:03:43,399

Yeah.

: 1331

01:03:43,574 --> 01:03:43,913

Michelle: Yeah.

: 1332

01:03:44,184 --> 01:03:47,904

You have to be ready to meet the moment

and be ready to show up in the way that

: 1333

01:03:48,459 --> 01:03:51,538

you're going to be able to perform at

a level you feel really good about.

: 1334

01:03:51,709 --> 01:03:53,439

I'm really proud of you, sis.

: 1335

01:03:53,659 --> 01:03:54,649

Jeanna: Aw, thank you.

: 1336

01:03:54,889 --> 01:03:56,389

I couldn't have done it without you.

: 1337

01:03:56,559 --> 01:03:59,149

Like legit, I could not

have done it without you.

: 1338

01:04:00,439 --> 01:04:02,299

I know it sounds sappy,

you guys, but it's true.

: 1339

01:04:02,319 --> 01:04:04,189

Like you all need a sister like Michelle.

: 1340

01:04:05,689 --> 01:04:07,609

Michelle: stay tuned

for part two next week.

: 1341

01:04:07,999 --> 01:04:12,169

This is where we're going to explore her

recent career transition, how she opened

: 1342

01:04:12,169 --> 01:04:17,519

up to a bigger dream, the highs and lows

of the job application process, and what

: 1343

01:04:17,519 --> 01:04:22,199

it's like in her new role now that she

has the gift of perspective that comes

: 1344

01:04:22,469 --> 01:04:24,509

from being in a different situation.

: 1345

01:04:24,719 --> 01:04:25,709

I'll see you next week

: 1346

01:05:32,302 --> 01:05:35,232

Jeanna: Cause that's the way,

uh huh, uh huh, I like it.

: 1347

01:05:35,332 --> 01:05:35,572

Michelle: Okay.

: 1348

01:05:36,382 --> 01:05:39,471

I was just telling Jason I promised

you fun and we're not, we gotta get to

: 1349

01:05:39,632 --> 01:05:40,302

Jeanna: Are you kidding?

: 1350

01:05:40,802 --> 01:05:41,662

I'm having a blast.

: 1351

01:05:41,922 --> 01:05:42,442

Where were we at?

: 1352

01:05:42,492 --> 01:05:43,862

We're still talking about me.

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