Olly takes the reins as the temporary host, filling in for Terry, who is busy completing his 5k runs for charity. As they dive into the episode, the discussion quickly shifts to a pressing concern: the alarming rise in drug driving incidents, particularly among younger drivers. The speakers explore the societal shifts that have led to a decrease in alcohol consumption among youth, yet a simultaneous increase in drug use, raising questions about the perception of danger associated with drug driving versus drink driving. With insights from regular guests; Tom Stenson and Dr Liz Box, as well as special guest, Neale Kinnear, the conversation flows into the nuances of how driving instructors can engage with their students to address these issues effectively. They emphasise the importance of understanding the cultural context and the need for open dialogues surrounding these topics, as driving instructors stand at a unique intersection where they can impact young people's attitudes toward road safety.

The Honest Truth

ANDNJC

Liz Box

Neale Kinnear

Hello to everybody in this episode, episode of adis.

To Vision Zero myself, Ollie.

Now I'm replacing Terry as the host this month.

He has offered me a chance to take charge, a decision he'll probably only make the once, but absolutely delighted to be in the chair today and hope Terry is enjoying himself.

I know he's doing his 5k a day for break.

I've been keeping an eye on that on social media and from what I understand, he's been very, very good.

Even through this heat wave we've been having, he's been out, getting out, doing his 5K.

So big up, Terry, for your 5Ks.

Almost there.

Just another three days to go and you'll have completed it.

So if anybody hasn't sponsored Terry, then please go across.

He has got a sponsorship page where he's raising funds for break, doing his 5k a day, and I'm sure he would be grateful for any pennies, shekels or groats that you may or may not be able to support him with.

So onto today, then, and we are joined by our regular guests.

I'll let them introduce themselves in a moment, but we've also got a special guest with us today.

Now, unfortunately, Kate, who normally is part of the panel, isn't very well this week, so we wish her to wish her well for a speedy recovery, but she has sent a very, very able replacement.

I'm not going to tell you who it is.

I'm going to let him introduce himself.

So, Kate, for May, if you'd like to introduce yourself, who you are and where you come from, that'd be great.

Kate, for me, has a different voice and accent and is Neil Kinnear.

And I work with Kate on my learner driver and I am an independent consultant with effective mobility.

Excellent, Neil.

So, so good to have you with us, particularly in light of the topic we're going to be discussing, which I will talk about in a moment.

So also our regulars here as well, in no particular order, Dr. Elizabeth Fox.

Good day to you.

Oh, hello there, Ollie.

Hi, everyone.

Yep, it's Liz Box, director of ECM Research Solutions here.

Pleased to be here.

It's quite hot, isn't it?

So hopefully you can't hear all the fans going in the background.

It is.

Hopefully everyone's staying cool in this warm weather, but don't fear, it's the British summer, it's not going to last.

We'll be back to wind and rain before we know it.

Cursing the weather, wishing it was hot again.

Anyway, British.

Nothing like a good old moan about the weather, whichever way it is, that what makes us uniquely British.

Definitely.

And last, by no means least, our good friend and colleague, Tom.

Hi, Ollie.

Hi, Liz.

Hi, Neil.

So, I'm Tom Stunson, Head of training for the ADI NJC and current Deputy Chair.

Excellent, Tom.

Always an absolute pleasure to have you around and hopefully you're staying cool or as cool as you can in this warm weather.

Yeah, we live in quite an old house, so it stays quite cool, which is quite nice.

Nice.

So, yeah, so cool.

Hopefully cool in the summer and warmer in the winter.

Keeps.

It keeps the heat in.

In the winter.

Ish.

Right, just before we get into today's topic, I would just have like to have a think about anything that's happened in the news or anything that people have seen in the news in the last few weeks that they think is.

It would be of interest to the audience.

Now, I'm going to kick this off with one I've actually seen today.

Now, I've seen a couple of bits across the last couple of weeks, but one that caught my eye today and it's a.

It's a headline, it's actually a Sky News headline.

Drink isn't the problem.

It's cocaine.

The drug driving epidemic sweeping UK roads.

So my question, really, I'm going to throw this question open is should we really be shocked by this statistic, by this headline?

Is this something we should be shocked by or could we have seen this coming?

Oh, anybody want to tell you?

Because silence is deafening.

Now, I asked that and I posed that specific question because obviously in my time as a police officer, towards the end of my career, particularly my time on traffic, I was undertaking more and more drug driving tests and I was noticing a, a big surge in the number of positive drug drive tests that were coming back when we, when the police started using the roadside drug swipes.

So for me personally, this is no surprise.

Liz, go on.

Yeah, I'll join you in on this, Ollie.

I mean, it's kind of piecing together the evidence that we have, isn't it?

So we'd certainly know from police colleagues that they are reporting that this isn't a growing issue and they're more and more often seeing this.

I recall going to a conference, I think it was last year, on drink and drug driving.

And what was really interesting was that there was some alcohol charities.

There was, and they were saying what they're increasingly finding is younger people.

We often say, well, young people aren't drinking anymore.

But actually I asked them, I said, is this a fact or is this just something we were all believing, that they're all in the gym and they're not drinking as much alcohol and.

But they said actually this is generally true as a trend.

They're saying that young people are drinking less than previous generations have done at that age, that this might be going into drug usage instead, or they didn't cover that specifically.

But on the alcohol front, they said they kind of, there's more of a view that, yes, you know, heavy drinking is what my aunts, my uncles, my dad, my mum, my grandparents do.

That's not what we do.

So I think there is a sort of a, a shift in the social norms, but as a result, potentially we're seeing an increase in other substance use as a result with alcohol going down.

Potentially.

Yeah.

Yes.

Now, I've read a couple of reports around this, this particular topic, Liz, as you're saying that a lot of young people you speak to, you know, they see drink driving as a bad thing.

You know, it's a bad thing.

And exactly as you just said then, it's something that aunts and uncles and the previous couple of generations were known for, whereas the current, current generation isn't maybe not known for as much as there's been a lot of publicity.

There've been a lot of campaigns around drink driving and it is seen as a, you know, a bit of a social.

No, no, it's clearly still goes on, as we see in the, see in the media, but this whole idea around the social acceptance of casual drug use amongst the current generation and also the, the ease in which they can get a hold of drugs as well.

So you speak to virtually any young person, they will know exactly who they would have to go to if they wanted to get split of cannabis or even a line of coke.

You know, I have no doubt and I've certainly spoken to driving instructors about this very issue over the last 12 months or so and they said, yeah, all my people know exactly where to get it.

We start talking about drugs in a lesson or the risks of drug driving, they all know exactly where to get hold of this stuff.

So it's, it's, it's.

Is that headline, you know, is it a scaremongering headline, you know, going on then?

So this is just another, another news outlet.

Drug drive repeated offending, nearly five times more common than drink driving.

So is there something in there as well?

So the whole idea of, do people not view drug driving as seriously as drink driving?

Do they not see it as the same, really?

It's impairment.

We all call it impairment.

But actually, is drunk driving not seen as bad as drink driving?

And I want to throw up to Tom, just.

I'm going to come back to the moment, Liz.

I just want to throw out to Tom as a driving instructor who obviously, you know, has.

Has dealt with and deals with young people.

Tom, what's your experience of young people's views on, say, drunk driving versus drink driving?

I. I will answer that, Ollie, but I'd like to come to a point that you mentioned a moment ago, actually, which was kind of about when you're chatting to driving instructors.

I think from my experience, sort of over the last couple of years of talking to driving instructors, they seem to be talking to their learners very much about the use of alcohol and driving, but not maybe much about drugs and driving, because I think alcohol is one of those things that they are more aware of whether they're not using alcohol as much.

So it was interesting, obviously, with you doing the honest truth, that's obviously kind of part and parcel of it.

But I think generally with driving instructors, when I'm chatting to them, they're talking a lot about alcohol, maybe not about drugs and perhaps especially not about prescription drugs.

I know we're kind of talking about other class A's here, but I think those are still things that we as driving instructors need to highlight.

So to answer your question, what I found over the years is, and this comes from driving instructors and my experience, a lot of the time, I think drink and drugs often comes up as a conversation only when it needs to.

When perhaps the learner has turned up smelling of alcohol or turned up smelling of cannabis, than maybe that conversation is had.

Then where, from my experience, I think for the average Joe, it's much harder to tell whether somebody has been taking drugs.

So I need to have those conversations with everybody because I can't specify whether, oh, that person smells of alcohol or they smell of cannabis.

So I'm going to have this conversation.

I think it's important that we try and have this blanket conversation with all of our learners, even if they do turn around to us and say, oh, do you know what, my friend does it.

I think it's really bad.

And I disagree with this.

Or, you know, my parents have told me about when they were younger.

Even those kind of conversations, I think, are really good to have.

And that's really encouraging that, you know, those.

Those are conversations that need to be had.

And particularly in light of some of these new figures and stuff, Neil, just.

I'm really keen to, to kind of.

Look at, understand A bit about your perspective on this sort of stuff almost from the academic side of it.

So you've got Tom as a frontline practitioner, delivering to young people, obviously myself, my previous life as an enforcer.

So enforcing legislation and seeing the increase in offending yourself and Liz very much in the academic world and looking at some sort of, some of the research and stuff behind this.

So I know Liz had her hand up and Liz, I'll come back to just a moment, but Neil, I'm just curious, curious as to your take on this.

So I think one question for us is, you know, have, have we been caught sleeping?

Because I.

In truth, you know, you are saying that in your time in the police you were identifying a shift and we didn't have the equipment, let's face it, to do roadside testing for a long time.

And that made it really difficult for us to quantify the size of this issue when it comes to driving.

But I think what's really interesting for me is the changing in culture here that no one would have predicted that alcohol use amongst young people was going to go down in the way it has like that.

And I don't know anyone that saw that on the cards.

And so young people and the young, a younger generation have come through and started making decisions based on information that they have got through new channels of information like social media and they've identified other ways of life that they prefer.

They care potentially about their bodies, they go to the gym or they have reduced alcohol.

Now has drug use increased or has it stayed the same?

It's just we're now identifying it more.

I'm not, I'm not sure.

I'm not up to date on the literature on that, to be honest.

But what's really interesting is from the work I have seen, particularly Fiona Filan's work, and that's being extended with the Road Safety Trust and the dft, which is a, you know, a drug driver intervention course.

The, the qualitative feedback from, from that seems to suggest that there just isn't the mental sort of addition of drugs plus driving equals I'm at more risk.

And in fact the attitude is very blasey, I can drive.

You know, there's no culture around drugs and driving like there is with alcohol and driving.

And in some cases respondents were saying either I can drive fine or even I can drive even better.

So it can increase a level of confidence that you can control the car even better, which is obviously concerning.

But what that suggests is that we haven't really quite captured even the information campaign and the cultural sort of connection between drugs and driving equaling risk or having an impact on other people.

And so there's a lot of work that to do there around that.

But we have to remember that actually all of the stuff like whether it be risk taking when driving or drinking or drugs or even sexual health, all of these things are factors we try to control in young people and we bombard them with public health information and campaigns at this time.

But ultimately they're all trying to do the same thing, which is to help young people make better decisions.

And you could say that actually they have made better decisions in many places.

You know, if they are living healthier lives, if they are eating better foods, if they are reducing their alcohol intake, actually that's better than the generations before them.

Now, is that a result of our of public health campaigning or is that a result of social media?

I don't know, but there's some really interesting questions there.

See, there's.

There's a.

God, there's so much to unpick there, Neil.

It really is one thing that, you know, I'm just thinking actually now about the topic I was going to be looking to cover this this month and I'm actually thinking actually we might just put that to one side for a bit and just continue talking about this because it's a really, really important topic.

Really important topic.

We've got some.

Some such great minds here with us this after today.

So I keep saying this afternoon and people won't be the crib listening is in the evening or the morning.

I can see, as I said outside is the afternoon anyway being recorded in the afternoon.

Watch it or listen to it whenever you get a chance.

So yeah, it was something you said then, Neil, that really kind of struck a chord with me and it was the fact that, you know, have we always had this problem but because there weren't roadside tested.

There was no.

There wasn't roadside testing for it until.

I'm not.

In fact, Liz, you can probably tell us when the very first.

I should know when the first roadside drug tests came out, but they were.

They were some time ago.

We're probably talking a decade now.

I think that roadside drug tests started being used widely by policing.

Certainly go.

It's certainly getting on for a decade.

It must be.

It was certainly when I was in traffic and they bought them in.

So yeah, it's probably around about a decade.

Was the problem always there or.

Or is it become far more known about because of the increase in testing at the roadside?

Whereas before how Many of those that were tested at the roadside for alcohol but came back negative for alcohol, had they been tested for drugs as well, would have come back positive for drugs, even though negative for alcohol.

When, when a, when, when a car stops because you, you know, it might be, as an officer, your spidey senses.

I always had a bit of a, bit of a yardstick that if I looked at a vehicle twice, there was a reason for that, it was subconscious a lot of the time.

So driving, I'll look at a vehicle, if I stopped, look at the vehicle again.

Why have I looked at that vehicle a second time?

There's something going on.

There's the banner of driving the vehicle itself, whatever it might be.

But actually you go and you speak to somebody and like you say, Tom said they don't smell of cannabis, they don't smell of alcohol before, and the only option we have was to give them a breath test if we believe there was potential alcohol involved.

But actually it's this whole idea of were the police just missing all these drug drivers?

And part of me thinks that probably is the case that there were hundreds of truck drivers out there, there'll be a miss because there was no means of being able to pick them up unless they were arrested and bloods were taken, in which case, you know, went off for analysis.

But you need powers and procedures to do that.

You can't just whip somebody off the street and take an armful of blood out of them to send off for analysis.

There's got to be stuff around it.

So that really struck a chord with me that that particular comment is, is it a problem we've always had or is it a new problem?

Liz, I can come back to you on this one.

What are your thoughts around all this then?

Oh, well, I have to, of course, say I was going to say everything that Neil said, but probably not as well as Neil puts it.

I mean, I was also going to, I was also going to mention Fiona's work because that has been fascinating, hasn't it?

All of the qualitative work she's done talking to drug users.

And I think for me, having seen some of that presented some of the early work, it really shows how pervasive drug driving is across society.

Now, I know obviously in this podcast we're largely thinking about young drivers, but a lot of her work has been with, I know, school run mums who have been taking drugs at the weekends who have no concept to the fact that they are still impaired when they're planning to do their regular day to day things and also talking to people and realizing, my goodness, given how heavy users they are, they're potentially never safe to drive ever.

They never got to that stage.

So there's a real ingrained issue here and as Neil says, it's going to be really quite difficult to kind of get underneath the culture of that and there'll be many subcultures within it and different purposes for use.

And, you know, given that you've got so many users throughout society, people are doing it for all sorts of different reasons.

So, yeah, I think it's going to be a big focus going forwards and it's really good to see that the Ray Safety Trust in their latest Call for Work is looking at drug related work and that's part of the large grants program.

So that's good to see.

So before then, the offence of being impaired by drugs while driving meant that police had to show that you were impaired in some way, your ability to drive, whereas post that period you just had to know that they were taking drugs to be able to have the offence.

So, yeah, I couldn't rack my brains for how long it's been.

But as you say, this is in recent history that things have changed and we know there's still a big issue in terms of the capacity for labs and for getting the drugalizers used.

And yeah, I think it's going to be a big area of work for all of us, actually, over the next few years.

For sure it is.

I think you're absolutely right, Liz.

And it's, you know, it's now been highlighted, it's now out there.

So, you know, there's no escaping this.

This is an issue on the roads, it is a growing menace on the roads.

And, you know, you, you've mentioned it yourself, Liz, and again, something that if I ever do any presentations when I talk about drug driving, yes, of course we're going to talk about the illicit drugs.

Your cannabis is your cocaine, your opioids, things like that, albeit the younger generation, I think they would tend to gear far more towards cannabis and cocaine and maybe some of your harder opioids, you know, they are sometimes slightly tricky to get hold of and they are going to potentially affect you longer term in far, far, far greater peril.

Longer term.

But actually, and thinking about this, in concept of the recent weather we've had is the risks of certain prescription medications, how many people, when they get a prescription medication that comes in the box and you take the medication out of the box.

In the box there'll be a leaflet.

Now that leaflet's probably going to be a zero size by the time you've unfolded it.

And you might have teeny tiny writing in there and in it somewhere it might say, avoid driving.

You know, do not drive on this medication.

How many people ask their gp, how many people ask the pharmacist when they get over the counter prescription medica, over the counter medication, purities, things like that, you know, classic hay fever relief tablet actually can make you drowsy.

Should you really be driving if you're on hemi, doses of pyrites, for example, or one of the other hay fever remedies, night nurse, things like that, things that are meant to depress your system.

People will take and still go out in the car, they'll still go out driving because they don't really think about the consequences of it.

Now when you talk about impairment, people talk about impairment.

Drinking, illegal drugs.

No, no, no.

Impaired.

You can be impaired, impaired through anything really.

If you're impaired, impairment is a very, very big catch all for this.

You'd be impaired through, you know, too much paracetamol or too much Red Bull or, you know, if you're shown to be impaired, impaired is impaired.

So there's a real, there is a real thing here, a real thing.

And I think there's a.

It's nice to see it's been recognized, but what the answer is, I literally have no idea.

Tom has an idea.

I can see on his face, he's got an idea.

Actually, as Neil was kind of talking, I was thinking back to my time, college.

I'd like to think of myself as a younger person, but I'm 44, so 25 years ago when I was at college, I must admit, I think within the people that I knew, there was bigger acceptance of people using drugs and driving than drink driving.

And that's my perception from sort of 25 years ago.

So I don't know whether it is just, it is being picked up more.

I can only say from my experience of being at college that, yeah, there were lots of people, there was a big community of people that I can think of who, yeah, they, they were regularly using drugs through the day as well over weekend and that was far more acceptable than perhaps drink driving.

And this is back to the social acceptance, the social acceptance of casual drug use.

And I think it is a.

Socially accepted amongst young people that they, you know, that they, they make that.

Yeah, all My mates smoke cannabis.

Yeah, I built a little cannabis because all the mates do it, you know.

Yeah.

Try to build a line of code because, you know, my mate said it was, you know, it'll help, it will help me stay awake, you know, whatever it might be.

So it's.

There's clearly a problem.

Now, the thing is, there's a.

There's a lot of work going in the background as it has been identified Fiona Filan and the work she's doing, Road Safety Trust.

And there'll be other work going on as well, but really, what can we do in the here and now?

What, what can, what can we, as road safety professionals?

And I'm going to put this out to driving instructors, all the driving instructors listening to this episode, what can they do to try and get slightly ahead of the curve?

So I'm going to ask each of you, I'm going to ask each of you the same question and see what, what, what I'd like to know what your response is.

So, Tom, I'm going to come back to you in a minute.

So in no particular order, I'm going to start with Neil.

So, Neil, what can be done in the here and now, particularly in the context of young drivers and that Learn to drive journey?

So you've gone, you've gone back to young drivers.

And I was in my head thinking, I don't want to label this as a young person issue, because I do.

I think Liz made the point.

This is across the lifespan.

I do think that is the case.

And what we have to remember is that, in essence, alcohol was the easy one.

It was.

It's a single drug, whereas we now lump every other drug together.

And you mentioned prescription drugs, there's another class, but all the other types of, you know, illegal drugs have different effects, do different things and are used in different ways by different people and parts of society.

And uncoupling all of that in and treating it just as a drug driving singular issue is probably my biggest concern here.

That we just try and chuck, you know, a single piece of information at this or just have a campaign that'll sort it out when we know that that just won't cut the mustard and won't get through to the audiences that we need to do.

So to be honest, maybe this is predictable from, from a researcher, but I think we have a lot of work to do to really understand the motivations and views and opinions that underpin people that take drugs and drive on a regular basis and understand why that isn't seen as anything abnormal.

To do.

And only when we really do that can you start to develop interventions that will apply to the different groups in the population.

We even need to understand that who are these different groups in the population and then what types of messaging that we target at them is going to work.

And I don't think we're anywhere near that right now, if I'm honest.

And that really concerns me because, you know, it feels like we're a long way behind in trying to catch up on that.

Neil, you made such a good point there.

Was I talking about the, the next generation of drivers and that the new and young drivers, when actually, as Liz has very, very well articulated from, from some of the work that's been done that actually this is, this isn't a young driver problem.

Yes, it is within the young driver population.

But I think the example you use, Liz, was school run mums, which actually I have to say left me slightly speechless, but not surprised.

You know, shocked but not surprised I think is probably the word there.

So again, same question to you then, Liz, is what can, if anything, can be done in the here and now?

Particularly, yes, accepting that it is a societal wide problem, but that can be done by those who are maybe bringing the next generation of drivers into the drive driving world and driving community or is there anything.

If there's nothing that can be done, then so be it.

Like Anil says, there is a huge amount of work to be done before we even understand the problem and do anything about it.

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree.

I think there's a huge amount of work to be done to better understand the issue so that researchers like myself and Neil can better provide better advice, if you like, to the practitioners that are out there doing the work.

But the other thing that you said, Neil, which I think is really important, is actually driving instructors, they're in a great place to listen and to ask the questions and actually become much more attuned to what's really happening on the ground than we certainly are in research terms.

I mean, often when I talk about intervention design, one of the things that's frustrated me, I suppose over time is a lot of the things we've done in the past is that we've imparted information, we've kind of given stuff, we've kind of said, right, with we're doing this, this is what you should do.

Right, off you go.

Great.

We've done the job, we've provided the information.

And I almost said to practitioners, it needs to be much less about you and much more about the People that you're talking to.

And more of the effective interventions we're seeing now are you might have an initial discussion point that you put out to them, but then you get them to talk about it themselves.

Think about how that relates to their own situations.

Think about when a mate did something that was challenging or when they found it hard themselves.

Often it's easier to talk about other people, isn't it, than themselves individually.

But I think driving instructors in a great place to just find out, you know, how.

How do you find this area?

We know nationally that this is a rising issue.

Is this what you're seeing in your friendship groups and, you know, the relationships you build up over time, they're probably much more likely to be honest with you about those things.

And the other thing that came to mind is I know Terry before has talked about having those conversations with his students about when they are fit to be in a lesson.

So if they've been drinking the night before and still smell of alcohol, I know you can't always smell these things.

Be like, that is not acceptable or you've not had enough sleep.

You know, there are certain.

Setting those boundaries for what that means for you as an instructor about when it's acceptable for that person to drive you and your vehicle kind of helps set the tone, I think for, you know, there are expectations, there are boundaries, and I'm going to set a good example of what that looks like.

So you can then hope that permeates a bit because they're experiencing it.

You're role modeling.

So, yeah, I think those are the initial things that came to mind for me.

Okay, so now we're going to flip it right on its head and tom from your toe from the other side of the, the, the house is to.

What do you think as a driving instructor, you know, of many years and a trainer and all those things that you, all those hats you wear.

What do you reckon?

What do you think here and now?

What can we do?

I'd highlight what Liz has said.

We often.

I see this on social media quite a lot, but I get asked this question.

We at the NJC have kind of been asked this question by many driving instructors, is that I have a learner.

I suspect that they're turning up to lessons under the influence of drugs.

What do I do?

So I think that's quite a common one.

And what Liz has said there, we kind of have this general advice that we would give out that ultimately it's your car and sort of your rules.

If you suspect that that learner is under the influence, well, then that's up to you to make that decision.

We've even had instructors ask us what the kind of moral side of them asking for a drug test from some of their learners, which we always think is quite interesting.

But what we can do is, I think what I've already mentioned earlier and what Liz has said there, is having those conversations with our learners, listening to what they've got to say.

It's one of those things where we may not be able to have a positive effect on everyone, but if we don't try with some of these conversations, it's going to be zero, isn't it?

And just having that important conversation, building that rapport with the learner and being someone that will listen to them, because they're probably not going to go and talk to their parents about their drug driving, especially if their parents are paying for the car or the insurance, they can see the consequences.

But I do like Liz's point of having, you know, having kind of a baseline for us to say, look, if you do turn up to this lesson, I suspect you're under the influence, or even if you're just not fit to drive.

I have a responsibility to make sure that that's not happening.

And I think if we as driving instructors can do that more in a more positive fashion, I think it does start to begin to have a positive effect, even if it is, you know, 0.1%.

Neil.

So just listening to Liz and Tom, it's made me think about how impractical my feedback was there to wait, to wait on research.

And if you know that that isn't helpful to a driving instructor going out tomorrow.

So what would I say?

I think it's building on what they've said that they are in that really unique position where they're sitting in a car, developing this relationship in a confined space.

But they are separate.

They have a.

They have a role, you know, in a position of a form of authority, you know, that they will be listened to.

But they're not a parent, they're not a police officer.

And I imagine that relationship is probably quite unique in many, many ways.

And a young person will open up, will often open up to an adi about things that they probably don't share with many other adults.

And so if they are in that position and they have the opportunity, then being able to allow that young person to gain some insight into the importance of the topic, to allow them to think about the impact, the potential impact on others.

So we know that, you know, having an altruistic purpose has been related to safe, better safety when driving.

So, you know, young people that have that sense of self awareness and that sense of caring for others or community, you know, that's, that can be powerful.

And these, that conversation about possibly just, well, what if you were out with your mates that night and then the next morning you were driving and still under the influence and you drove past a school.

How would you feel if something happened, you know, just starting to make them think in a way about that might, you know, without it being too graphic or too dramatic, but in a natural conversation way that could be really powerful.

And it is.

And it's really interesting that, you know, this is such a, it's not a new problem.

It's not a new problem, but it's suddenly being, being pushed into the forefront of, you know, the way it's being portrayed in the media today is that this is, you know, it's like chicken licking running around for those that remember the stories of chicken licking and you know, and the sky's falling in, you know, heavens above, the sky's falling in.

This is, this is terrible.

But it's, it's something that isn't new.

This is just something that has clearly there's been some, obviously some studies and some stats have been thrown around, around the, the levels, just the levels of it.

And yeah, it is about trying to get, it's utilizing that relationship as well.

Like you said, Neil, the relationship between the, the ADI and the pupil is.

I think you're right.

I think it's unique.

I think it's a unique relationship and it's one that, that I don't think other road safety professionals capitalize on nearly enough.

When you think about the 40,000 registered driving instructors out there, and I've said it countless times that you've got 40,000, 40,000 road safety professionals out there who are more than happy.

The vast majority are more than happy and want to help.

They want to help.

They want to do what they can to turn out the safest drivers possible.

Yes, there are those that are purely in it just to fill the bank accounts and you know, fortunately they are somewhat few and far between the ones like Tom and Kate and plenty of others out there.

For all those that I haven't mentioned, I, please forgive me, I would forget somebody.

So I'll just mention Tom and Kate as they're part of this, this, this, this podcast group.

But actually that are, that are absolutely determined to make a difference and make a real positive difference.

Why aren't, why aren't more Rotator professionals utilizing these.

These relationships that instructors have got to be able to feed this messaging in to be able to, you know, encourage young people to think about.

Actually, if you don't want to talk to somebody else about it, talk to driving instructor.

So three coming up three years ago, you've said, Ollie, since I've been to everything on this truth, my car's turned into a bit of a confessional.

I feel a bit like a priest or a priestess when I'm in the car.

Some of the stories that I'm getting from my students, not necessarily about them, but about their mates or their brothers or sisters or aunts or uncles.

It'll make a haircut.

But the thing is, though, they're talking about it and that for me is the absolute first step of the process.

Is young people happy to talk about some of these thorny topics.

They'll talk about just about anything else and they'll call people out in just about anything else.

But actually, when it comes to road safety, they're far less keen to.

So to get them to open up to talk about topics involved in the road key, road safety topics has got to be a good thing.

And driving instructors are absolutely the key to opening that Pandora's box, in my humble opinion, without a shadow of a doubt.

Sorry, I took it off my soapbox momentarily.

Liz.

I can see Liz with a big smile on her face.

Well, actually, I didn't know I had another bit of news.

I didn't know if it's worth segueing to, Ollie, but.

And this kind of puts it into the larger scale.

I should say Thursday the.

Oh, no, are we Thursday, Thursday 28th of May, just for listeners, because it will be old news probably by then, won't say, but just kind of the headlines from that is that you've probably seen that road Deaths have dropped by 3% from the previous year.

Obviously, this is all provisional, so we'll know for sure later when that gets confirmed.

But also there has been an increase in killed and seriously injured.

So almost that drop in fatalities has been offset a bit by the increase in killed and seriously injured.

So the other kind of key facts that came out, that.

Which are, I think, worth.

Worth of note is that motorcycle fatalities rose by 13% and that's the second consecutive annual Increase as well.

So we know vulnerable road use are increasingly becoming vulnerable and pedal cyclist casualties increased by 10% as well, as well as pedestrian casualties rising by 4%.

So we've got what we consider vulnerable road users increasing.

So drug driving is part of that, that storing, isn't it?

But there's a, there's a big challenge ahead for all of us to try and reduce those figures.

And I need to go off and have a look at, you know, what, what the figures are looking like for the traffic on the network, because often we don't set that against these figures because you need to know what proportion of, you know, miles traveled there are to see if we are actually rising or reducing.

But I just thought that was worth bringing up there, Ollie, just to give those latest figures.

I hadn't realized that came those things, that provisional report was out today, actually, Liz, so thank you so much for bringing that up because again, it's always interesting to read those figures when they come out to see what, you know, what are those trend lines looking like.

And it sounds like obviously without you say there haven't been provisional figures, it sounds very much like a tailor to tell of two halves this year with, you know, a small increase.

Any increase in fatalities on the road has got to be a good thing.

Has got to be a good thing.

But for me, a 13% increase in motorcycle was that 13% increase.

That's enormous.

That is huge.

Yeah, that's a worry, that is.

And overall your vulnerable road user casualty or vulnerable road users casualty figures being up considerably, not just by Mark Fraction, but pedal cyclists and motorcyclists up into double figures.

Double figures increase, which is a, you know, that is a concern, without a doubt.

But, you know, if an overall drop.

Yeah, you know, that should be, that, that should be celebrated, having an overall drop.

But not, not if you put it in against the context of those two wheeled figures, you know, and again, be interesting to see that broken down a bit more and maybe, maybe in a future episode we can persuade Terry to maybe let us look at some of these figures and some of the background behind these figures and some of the, you know, particularly when it comes to the younger driver elements, I know that they'll pull out the younger driver element and what have you in that and where they sit within those figures as well.

Yeah.

And I think what it really shows is the scale of the challenge and I think it, you know, we'll probably move on to talk about this, but it kind of shows that if you're going to be delivering incremental awareness campaigns is not going to produce the step change that we need in reduction in fatalities or killed or seriously injured.

In terms of what Neon lion, others know from what research says those things can do, the challenge is huge and we need to start using more effective levers really to kind of reduce those deaths and serious injuries and all of the tragedy that comes behind those numbers.

You're absolutely right.

And that is in fact a perfect segue.

It's like you've done this before, Liz, into now we.

In.

Into what.

What we're going to be discussing today.

And I still like to, still like to just talk about it a little bit, although maybe not quite as much depth as I was intending to go into, only because we, we've kind of said we kind of went down a bit of a rabbit hole on the, on the drug driving issue.

But I think it's a really important one to have talked about, particularly in the context of the majority of our audience here thinking about working with young people and actually maybe not so young people.

I know, we know that, that there are a lot of instructors out there who've got sort of those slightly older students, slightly older pupils.

And yeah, just have a think about those.

That impairment piece of.

That piece around impairment.

What can you do to try and get slightly ahead of the curve?

It's just an open question.

So, yeah.

So, Liz, that perfect segue, thank you very much.

Into celebrating failure.

There we go.

I'm going to put it out there.

Let's celebrate failure, shall we?

We're so used to celebrating success that let's celebrate things that don't work as well.

Let's not call it failure.

Let's call it things that haven't quite worked as well as they should have done.

Now, brilliant to have yourself and Neil here with us today because actually I know you've both done a huge amount of research into some of these interventions and interventions that have been running for a number of years that have actually then been really carefully looked at and then shown to maybe not be quite as good as we thought.

Now I am going to.

I'm going to name a couple because I think that's absolutely fine.

If I get into trouble for it, so be it.

Terry never asked me back, but, for example, learn to live.

Now, I'll use Learn to Live, Liz, because I, as you know, as you well know, I was a regular speaker At Learn to live down in, in the West Country.

So any for people listening, Learn to live, also known as safe drive, stay alive.

I've seen it delivered as too fast, too soon, too young to die.

I think there was a number of iterations of the same thing.

It was a, it was a theater style presentation where a story was told through, usually through a video and then live speakers then get up and talk about an incident.

They dealt with it to large groups of year 12 and 13 pupils.

So 17, 18 year olds finishing their time at school and these audiences can be anything from 50, 100 up to.

I think the biggest one I ever got involved in was about 12, 13, hundred young people in one venue.

A huge, huge number of young people together and they were run for a number of years and were seen to be very, very successful.

However, I'm going to hand over to Liz now because I know you did a lot of work around this, Liz.

Well, yeah, I certainly picked up the baton, Terry, but I would definitely point to many, many researchers over probably about 30 years, Neil, I would say, if not longer, that have been working on this area and chipping away at it and you kind of wonder who the next person is you're going to pass it on to.

But hopefully we'll make some progress.

But there's some, some big issues around here.

So I think one of the key uncomfortable truths, if you like, is that when we deliver behavior change interventions, the ones that people most remember, what we typically find in the research, not the ones that actually change behavior.

So people go, wow, it's so impactful, it's emotional.

You can see the effect it's having on people and it's quite natural, I think, to assume that then changes how people act and think.

But so much of what we do in certainly transport psychology is that it's maybe counterintuitive to what you'd expect.

And I think that's quite a hard message to get across.

But I think probably in public health more generally, we've got much better at asking not just did people like it, but did it actually change behavior?

In the past we've done so many things like, you know, happy sheets, did you enjoy or enjoy is the wrong word for this sort of intervention, but did you find it impactful?

Well, I would be quite surprised if anybody said they weren't emotionally impacted by those sort of programmes.

Of course they are.

They're hearing about trauma that people have experienced.

But now we're better at determining whether it actually works.

And as you've said, Ollie, we found that those programs, typically they might have a small change in people's intentions or attitudes to behave safer in the immediate term.

But when we compare it on the long term, so four to six, six weeks later, eight to 10 weeks later, that effect is completely gone.

And the work that I was doing was doing randomized control trials, comparing an alternative to see how did they differ.

And when you do randomised trial, it means that you can be pretty certain that you've got similar groups of people and you're sort of testing different approaches.

That's quite helpful.

But I was also just thinking about what makes interventions effective and what doesn't.

And conversely you kind of have the same ingredient in both actually, because I think passion matters enormously.

So I think we can all think of if anything successful has happened in an organization or generally speaking, you're going to have a motivated, passionate individual behind it, they're going to be driving it, they're going to be providing all of the energy and enthusiasm and without that nothing happens.

So we absolutely need that.

And I think certainly with the emergency services, typically you have very passionate individuals who actually see the devastation day to day and they feel the urgency of this cannot continue.

This must change, we must do something now.

You know, very luckily I do not have to experience what they do on a day to day basis.

And obviously Ollie, you know a lot about that from your previous experience, but passion can sometimes push organizations, I think, and people towards acting on instinct and that urgency and working on emotion rather than evidence.

And I think that's generally speaking what we've got a lot better at doing is looking at the evidence and working with it and not just going with what feels and looks right.

But actually we can actually.

Evidence is impactful and what we know is impactful is actually helping people think through what, what challenges they're going to face, what coping mechanisms they're going to use and actually operationalizing it.

What are you going to do when at some point you will feel like you need to speed or that you will get distracted?

Because those are the regular things that we all experience day to day.

How are you going to manage it?

So I think there's, there's kind of positive things, but as you said, or Lee, there's, there's been a real difficult, difficult transition I suppose from moving from something that people believe in, they've invested a lot of time, energy, careers into and then thinking about, well actually now we know differently, we, we need to do differently.

And that's a very, very difficult, challenging thing to do.

Yes, yes, Liz, you're very, you're right.

And I certainly had some interesting or I was party to some interesting conversations.

Obviously you very kindly asked me to be be involved in the original Drive Fit, which was obviously seen as a, a replacement or potential replacement for the Learn to Live program.

And I, you know, I was delighted to come and be part of that and continue to that to do that work in, in that particular area of business to look at, you know, what is the future.

But I know an awful lot of driving instructors around the country will have probably been at some point or other will have been to one of the older star presentations.

In fact, I know that I know many down this neck of the woods who, down in the west country where I am, who've been, who've been to them.

And some of the conversations that I was party to when the change came was, were really interesting.

And you know, I really hope those people listen to what you've just said, Liz, because I think you've said it so succinctly.

You really have.

I think it just explains why you did what you did, why we do what we do and why things have to change.

Neil, I want to bring you in here as well with your background.

I know it's very similar to Liz's, but you know, in, in your experience now that was.

We talked about a specific intervention there.

A specific intervention, but actually thinking broader then so thinking slightly broader around things that maybe didn't work or work for a while and then because something else shift shifted in society or more new information came to light or what it was that actually that was then seen as what was seen as, excuse me, potentially that's pretty good.

And that works really well.

And passion and enthusiasm, all that go around it.

Yeah, we need to kind of put that in a box and shelve it.

We need to move on to something else that, you know, that maybe isn't quite so palatable for a lot of people who are so used to something that.

Trying to get you to something else.

So Neil, in your experience then, how does that work for you?

So I've been thinking about this for, well, quite a long time now, probably 20 years when I was looking at the evidence for sort of, I guess, in school interventions and driver education.

And look, it is surprising if you look at the academic literature to then read that it doesn't have any effect on changing behavior.

It's really hard to compute why that is.

Right.

And I, I then later in my career served some time as a, as a collision investigator for TRL's.

DFT project on the spot project.

And you know, I was attending crash scenes at the same time as police and fire.

And honestly that gave me a perspective and an understanding of that logic that if you're standing there and you've just seen the trauma that has happened and the impact it has on people's lives, you think if only everyone understood this, they wouldn't do the things they do.

That's a, that really makes sense.

Right.

That so logical.

But then when you look at, when you try to do that in road safety education or in health and you've got the famous sort of study on infant simulators that was published in Nature where in Australia they gave teenage girls sort of basically plastic babies to have to look after for a period of time and then had a control group that didn't get the babies.

And then they looked at the, the, the conception rate, pregnancy rate up until they became age 20.

And those that got the infant simulators had twice as many pregnancies as the control group.

Right.

And you had backline slightly.

Right.

And, and that again was based on the same logic that if only young people understood, you know, young people understood how awful it is to look after a baby and get up at that time, you wouldn't get pregnant.

And it's the same for the prison studies in the US that where they took young people into prisons hoping to put them off crime because they would see how awful it is in prisons.

But actually more of them ended up in prison because they'd actually normalized that.

And some of the people, guys in prison, they might have even looked up to, who knows what the impact was.

But either way, you're having these unintended consequences from something that is logically makes sense and that's really hard to understand.

And so I get why someone in a position of wanting to do something comes up with the type of intervention things.

Let's just show this.

But we have to, we have to follow the evidence because that tells us where we're going wrong and, and it, and then we start to look at, well, okay, what does work?

And what you then see is, right, if we don't focus on the horrendous consequence of creating the trauma, but actually what are the situations that these people really end up in?

What's a realistic situation that could lead to something that we don't, you know, a risky situation?

Well, that could be they're at a party, the mates had a drink, they don't really have a way to get home, the mate's going to Drive.

Okay.

What do I do in that situation?

Well, how about we just talk about it as a, you know, in a group session.

Let's think through what we would all be thinking.

Let's open up this opportunity to, to discuss it and then think about how we could manage the situation better and start giving them tools to manage that situation.

And it comes back to what we talked about at the start of the podcast, that actually we don't need to show trauma.

What we need to do is empower young people to make better decisions in the situations that they're realistically going to get into.

And if we do that, we've, you know, we're, we're moving a long way towards helping.

I know I've talked a lot, Ollie, but I do have one other thing to say on this issue.

No, that's why you're here, Neil.

This is why.

This is why we have you here.

It's fascinating.

Fascinating.

The truth is that we expect way, way too much of it.

We are trying to use education to basically bridge the gap between behavior and crash outcomes.

It's never going to do that.

How is going into school for an hour or two hours or three hours on one day going to offset all the other motivations in a person's life, all the other influences over the years?

It's not right.

So we're trying to do something huge in a small intervention.

The reality is that we just need to focus education on being realistic to what it can do.

It can inform, it can help underpin changes in the safety culture or potential policy changes in future.

It can build that, you know, it can build and reinforce that culture and support things like enforcement or support the importance of getting good training or finding a good adi.

All right.

It can help your decision making, but it cannot change.

You shouldn't really expect a one hour intervention to change behavior and impact crash outcomes.

So we've had a really sort of.

We've tried to use education to bridge a gap.

It shouldn't.

It's not fit to do, basically.

Mm.

Well.

So.

Yes.

So tried.

Yeah, that's.

That is interesting.

Tried Education to bridge a gap that it's not really designed to do.

Yes, I like that.

Yeah.

Had you spent a long time thinking that.

I quite like that as a phrase.

I quite like that.

I have to say, I might make a note of that.

I'd have to use that as.

Tom, I'm gonna bring you in here for no other reason.

No other reason.

And obviously on completely other side of the fence, really now, I don't know if you'd ever had the opportunity to see anything like the safe job, stay alive or learn to live or any of those intervention since you've been in the world of driver training.

But really your thoughts on that, that whole educational piece around, you know, that that shock and all does not.

It actually can be more harmful than good, I think.

Let's just come back to you for one second before I just go back to Tom.

Am I right in understanding that that long term, potentially that shock and awe can have more damaging effects than positive effects?

Was I right in that?

I do remember seeing.

Yeah, I think that's.

That's a really important point, Ollie, because I think going back to the point of which both Neil and Live raised, that we can completely understand why there's a need and an urgency to do something because the impacts are horrific and people often go, if I will save one life, it's worth it, or doing something is better than nothing.

And what we know is, unfortunately doing something can be worse than doing nothing as a result of the harms that can be caused.

I mean, Neil spoke about a couple of the other public health examples, but in this field in particular, we know, particularly for young males, which are often the group that we're trying to engage with the most, they are least receptive to that sort of fear and shock appeal kind of message.

We know young females as a group are much more receptive to it, but some of the harms can be it can put them off driving altogether.

And there's been plenty of examples of that.

We don't want young people to be put off mobility and all of the opportunities that that brings them.

And young males, typically, the research finds, are much more likely to dismiss it and say, well, I'm a great driver.

We've talked about this before, haven't we, about our own inflated sense of confidence that happens to other people.

That's not me.

I can manage my way around these things.

So they dismiss the message and disengage with it.

So what might look like impact is really just an emotional response to these awful cases that they're being presented with, which is a hugely human reaction, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's going to change their own personal behaviors as a result.

Liz, thank you.

So again, Tom, apologies.

I just wanted to just go back to Liz on that point for a moment.

So come to yourself then, Tom, around shock and awe, because I Still get asked by instructors.

Oh, you know, why can't we have, you know, why can't there be gory pictures and videos of car crashes and things for, you know, within the campaign that I'm involved in?

No, because that one, one, it doesn't work.

Two, two, you don't want to, you don't want to see that.

And three, it can do more harm than good.

So thinking about that whole shock and all piece from a driving instructor's perspective, how do you come, how do you get around that then, Tom?

Because how many do you get asked?

Okay.

Do you get asked by students?

Oh, you know, you talk about things.

What.

Have you got any pictures of car crashes?

Because it's morbid curiosity.

Yes.

And I'll tell you a kind of personal story.

When I was younger, my father was involved in sexual health, so he used to travel around schools talking to young people about horrible diseases you could get.

So I spent quite a lot of my younger years watching my dad set up presentations with these slides of horrible pictures.

I think after many, many years, it had put me off.

So I think shock and awe sometimes can work.

But, yeah, well, we get it a lot from driving instructors who still think that that's going to be a good thing.

But I think it comes back for me very much what Liz and Neil have said is about education to driving instructors, because I think there's still that conception where they had it for them when they were younger.

So they think, well, why are we not doing it now?

And it's recognizing that, you know, drinking and driving used to be acceptable, but we don't do it now because there's been a shift or we've got better knowledge and education.

So I think if we can educate driving instructors to get more, more of them to recognize what positive impacts we can have instead of just saying, well, you know, if you do this, you're going to crash.

It's going to be bad.

If we can give them the tools to have those coaching conversations to open up that, that, that deeper conversation with our learners where they are going to talk to their driving instructor.

As we said before, we're, we're so lucky that we get to meet these, these not just young drivers, but predominantly, I think for us as driving instructors, we get to meet these young drivers and we get a chance of meeting, making a positive impact.

But if we don't have the tools and if we still focus on, you know, do this to pass your test and then you'll learn to drive after, well, those are, those are the failures that we need to have learned from and go, actually, there are bigger and better ways that we can help our learners now because of research that, you know, everyone else has done that we get to use.

And I think that's.

You kind of hit the nail on the head there, Tom, is that there's so much stuff out there and we should.

We, we, all of us in the road safety world should be listening to the likes of Liz Box, Neil Kinnear.

These people know what they're talking about.

They absolutely do.

It's their life.

It's what they live and breathe day in and day out.

And the thing that I always used to hear in work and something I always lived by, was if we always do what we've always done, we're always going to have the same results.

So actually, let's think outside the box.

Let's do things differently.

If things aren't working, then let's shelve them.

Let's not beat a dead horse because it's not going to get us anywhere.

So, yeah, I'm very much about that innovation and constantly evolving, constantly looking at new ways of doing things, new and improved ways of doing things, which is exactly what I know, you know, Liz and Neil is, is their world.

And I think we should be very grateful that we have them, have people like them out there that can, that can do this sort of stuff for us.

So, Liz, you want to come back in on that?

Yeah.

And just very briefly, Ollie, I was just going to raise, and Neil mentioned earlier a couple of great examples from public health and I think it's quite important that we do keep on bringing it back to, if this was happening in your doctor's surgery, would you accept it?

Would you accept your doctor going, well, you know what, you've come to me with these symptoms, I reckon, based on, you know, my feeling, my gut feel that this is what you should have, that they hadn't run the trials, that they hadn't understood what the potential harms of those drugs could be, because we'd be up in arms if this is happening in any other area.

And I think probably the work that me, Neil and others do is very much trying to bring those public health approaches into race safety, which is really a public health issue.

It's not all that different.

So I think it's really important we think about it from that perspective because it's not good enough at the moment that we have an idea and we run with it when it can have harms.

And we talk a lot about having trauma informed approaches now and, you know, there's a lot that we now know that works.

We talk about.

There's been some really interesting work done in the drug education space, actually using peer based engagement and kind of working out who the most socially connected peers are.

Because actually, as Neil mentioned earlier, you drop in and parachute in for an hour, they're just going to move on with their day.

They've got their friends, they've got their family, they've got their social circle that will influence what they're doing.

But if we can start to support those that are going to influence things going forward, much more effective, then that's going to be much more longer lasting we can ever achieve.

So, as Neil was saying, it's all about setting up the right systems.

It's kind of almost doing the boring things.

Often.

Everybody likes doing an intervention and designing it themselves and doing it.

And actually we just got to do the right things and we got to do them consistently, help people build those habits and just keep on going at social support, making sure they've got the access and opportunity to perform the right behaviours.

It's not the grand, exciting things, it's just making these things every day.

So, yeah, I think there's just a lot we can learn from public health and the more we can move that way, the better.

Liz, I really like the doctor surgery analogy and that's such a good one.

In fact, I think that's a really, really good point to wind this episode up with.

So what I'd like to do is just to finish off, thank you all so much.

Some really interesting stuff there.

Didn't intend to talk about drug driving or impaired driving, particularly drug driving, for quite so long, but really good.

And I'm hoping that those that are listening have gone, yeah, absolutely.

There is something we can do to get slightly ahead of this curve by having those discussions.

And I think that's.

That as a takeaway for me was there's a huge amount of work going on in the background.

There's a huge amount needs to understand the problem, to literally the first thing you do is understand the problem, which exactly as Neil and yourself, Liz, exactly as you both very articulately managed to put across, was we don't know what the problem is, it's too complex.

But actually getting those conversations started and Liz, I could almost see your.

Those little cogs in your brain going around when you thought about actually driving instructors have got access to an awful lot of young people to maybe start to understand some of these, some of these, some of these issues.

Around it.

So maybe there's a bit of work there that can be developed and then obviously moving on to, you know, things, interventions and looking at what does and doesn't work and why some of these things don't work and this whole, whole idea of shock and awe and actually that can do more harm than good.

So what I'd like to do is just wrap up by getting you all just to quickly run around and tell us, if you want to learn, understand more about some of these topics we're talking about, is where they can find you.

Basically, I know Terry will put it in the show notes, I'm sure the contacts for those on, on the panel, but where people can find you.

So, Liz, I've got you on the screen in front of me right now.

Where can we find you?

Well, best place to find me is probably on LinkedIn.

That's what I update the most.

But also ECM.

Researchsolutions.co.uk.

Excellent, Neil, where can we find you?

LinkedIn is probably the.

Probably the easiest.

I've got a fairly uniquely spelled name that tends to pop up, so.

So find Neil on LinkedIn.

Tom, if anybody doesn't know.

Where can we find you?

You can find me at the Adi.

N J C. Excellent.

Myself, Ollie, you can find me@thehonestruth.

Www.beonestruth.co.uk UK thank you all so, so much.

I may or may not be back next month, depending on when Terry sees this back, whether he'll ever have me near anything he's got to do with again.

But we shall see.

Neil, thanks so much for joining us this month.

Really, really interesting.

Some really good stuff came out of that and hopefully we'll get you back as a, as a guest, a guest invite again at some point in the future.

It's been a pleasure.

But like you, Ollie, I mean, you know, once Terry sees it, who knows?

I'm going to say it's going to be you permanently.

And I prefer to get to the side.

I can see the writings on the wall.

I can see what's coming.

Thank you so much.

Cheers.