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Monoliths - Stones agency with Dr. Charlotte Coull
Episode 73 • 28th October 2024 • Digging Up Ancient Aliens • Fredrik Trusohamn
00:00:00 01:02:56

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The episode features a lively and critical dialogue between Frederik and Dr. Charlotte Coull, a public historian specializing in the cultural significance of stone. They explore the problematic narratives surrounding megaliths and ancient sites as portrayed in the popular television show Ancient Aliens. A key focus of their discussion is the site of Avebury, where Dr. Call emphasizes the emotional and historical connections people have with stone structures, urging listeners to recognize the deep cultural roots these sites have in human history rather than relegating them to mere alien constructs.

The conversation also touches upon the stone spheres of Costa Rica and their misrepresentation in the media, arguing that erosion and natural processes can explain their shape, rather than attributing them to alien technology.

Fredrik and Dr. Coull's engaging exchange serves as a reminder of the importance of critical thinking in the face of alternative histories that often prioritize spectacle over fact. They encourage listeners to appreciate the complexities of ancient craftsmanship and the human stories woven into the fabric of these historical sites, advocating for a respectful and informed exploration of our past. The episode is a compelling call to action for those interested in archaeology and history to challenge sensationalist narratives and embrace a more nuanced understanding of the ancient world.

Charlotte Coulls projects:

https://www.youtube.com/@appliedhistorian

https://www.elementaltours.com/

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The intro music is Lily of the woods by Sandra Marteleur, and the outro is named “Folie hatt” by Trallskruv. Visit Trallskruvs website here

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Transcripts

Frederik:

You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.

:

Welcome to Digging Up Ancient Aliens.

:

This is the podcast where we examine alternative history and ancient alien narratives in popular media.

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Do these ideas hold water to an archaeologist, or are there better explanations out there?

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We are now on episode 73, and I am Frederik, your guide into the world of pseudoarchaeology.

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And this time I'm joined by a guest, or I'm actually visiting a guest, and we will discuss Stones, Megalith, and, well, racist dog whistles that Ancient Aliens brings up in the episode titled Monolith.

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I want to thank everyone who support the show, like Tim.

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You're really helping out producing all of this content, and I'm humbled and grateful for all of your support.

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And if you want to help out, I will tell you exactly how to do that and even get some bonus stuff at the end of the episode.

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I also want to bring up that over the weekend we had this large online event regarding archaeology, and I think it was a huge success.

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And if you want to check out what was going on there, you can go to the website real-archaeology.com and catch up on all the amazing content that was released during the weekend.

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There's also an interview I did with Flint Dibble on his channel that you definitely should go and check out.

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But yeah, you can go and peruse all of that content after you have listened to this episode.

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Now, I think we have finished up our preparation, so let's dig into the episode.

Frederik:

So I want to welcome, or maybe it's Dr.

Frederik:

Charlotte Call, who welcomed me into her home.

Frederik:

But I want to welcome Charlotte to the podcast.

Charlotte Call:

Hello and thank you for having me on the podcast.

Charlotte Call:

And I'm sure, yes, welcome to my house as well.

Frederik:

So, Charlotte, could you maybe tell the audience who you are and maybe a bit about your credentials?

Charlotte Call:

Okay, so I finished my PhD from the University of Manchester about three years ago, give or take.

Charlotte Call:

And I am a historian.

Charlotte Call:

I'm straight historian through and through.

Charlotte Call:

That's undergrad.

Charlotte Call:

MA, PhD.

Charlotte Call:

During my PhD, during my MA, I started to get quite interested in the history of archeology.

Charlotte Call:

And Specifically during my PhD, I started to focus on how people or how archaeologists in the 19th century interacted with stone.

Charlotte Call:

I looked specifically at archaeology, colonial archaeology, British archaeology in India and Egypt throughout the 19th century.

Charlotte Call:

And I was very interested in the concept of stone's agency, because I'm very interested in materiality and how humans interact with material objects, how we interact with the properties of materials, and specifically stone since then.

Charlotte Call:

So, yeah, for the past Three years I've been a public historian.

Charlotte Call:

I lead guided walking tours of the wonderful city of Manchester, uk when it's not raining and often when it is raining too, and we focus on the materiality of the city.

Charlotte Call:

I also have a YouTube channel which kind of tries to tie history to, I guess, current events today and do so in a hopefully an amusing and insightful way.

Charlotte Call:

So that's me.

Frederik:

So I've been doing this ancient alien stuff for nearly 70 plus episodes.

Frederik:

What's your previous?

Frederik:

Well, history with shows like Ancient Aliens or Ancient Apocalypse or Ancient whatever that's on history channel at 2am I have.

Charlotte Call:

Never watched Ancient Aliens at 2am I feel like I.

Charlotte Call:

That's probably a good thing, I'm assuming.

Charlotte Call:

Hopefully.

Charlotte Call:

I will honestly confess that Ancient Aliens, it's been sort of.

Charlotte Call:

I've known about it, obviously.

Charlotte Call:

I know it's out there.

Charlotte Call:

I've seen the memes.

Charlotte Call:

I'm aware of that dude with the crazy hair.

Charlotte Call:

I can't remember his name.

Frederik:

Giorgio Tsoukalos.

Charlotte Call:

That's him.

Charlotte Call:

But I'd never actually watched an episode, a whole episode completely from start to finish until I was prepping for recording this.

Charlotte Call:

So it was an interesting experience.

Charlotte Call:

I will say that that's the cat if he sets himself on fire.

Charlotte Call:

So this was my first.

Charlotte Call:

The first episode I'd watched from start to finish and honestly, I found it at once incredibly frustrating and fascinating and I had to move my phone out of my reach so I didn't pick it up and throw it at the tv.

Charlotte Call:

I got very frustrated.

Charlotte Call:

What I think is really interesting though is how you can sort of track these sort of conspiracy theories and how they all started in the 19th century or give or take, because that's what I focus on.

Charlotte Call:

That's my vibe.

Charlotte Call:

I'm a 19th century gal and you can see the seeds.

Charlotte Call:

So I guess it was great watching it because it's kind of like, ah, this is where all these.

Charlotte Call:

This is where all these things that I've looked at the beginning of this is where they've ended up.

Charlotte Call:

And I don't like where they've ended up.

Frederik:

No, they seem to enjoy it.

Frederik:

But yeah, it's a bit problematic.

Frederik:

Now, you told me before that you have been on a conference called Meglo Megalithomania.

Frederik:

Exactly.

Frederik:

How do you feel that that crowd compared to the little ancient alien exposure you got here?

Charlotte Call:

Of course, you know, how could I forget about that conference?

Charlotte Call:

Yeah, that was a fun experience.

Charlotte Call:

I mean, it was basically the same stuff.

Charlotte Call:

I will say though, that the conference, some of the Talks were more overtly racist than I think would ancient aliens might get away with.

Charlotte Call:

Although to be fair, I haven't seen any other ancient aliens.

Charlotte Call:

Maybe there is more overt racism.

Charlotte Call:

It's all the pretty.

Charlotte Call:

It's the pretty standard stuff, isn't it?

Charlotte Call:

The sort of the.

Charlotte Call:

What's it?

Charlotte Call:

The ancient astronaut theory.

Charlotte Call:

The angels.

Charlotte Call:

Lots of angels.

Charlotte Call:

At the conference, in fact, one woman gave an entire talk about angels.

Charlotte Call:

That was.

Charlotte Call:

That was something else.

Charlotte Call:

I feel like.

Charlotte Call:

Actually, I feel like the ancient alien show is not quite as New age hippie.

Charlotte Call:

It doesn't quite spread the love and light.

Frederik:

It comes and goes.

Frederik:

Yeah, there's definitely a new age influence in the sphere, but what we see on television, we have to remember is filtered through a network publisher and it needs to go on a major network.

Frederik:

So of course they won't put the most overtly racist stuff.

Frederik:

They will try to filter that out because the author has said some incredible nasty things in the past.

Frederik:

But those stuff is usually, you know, toned down.

Frederik:

It's more family friendly.

Frederik:

It's more aiming to be scientific in a sense.

Frederik:

And therefore you don't really get the new age influence as clear as you get in their books and when they write and when you hear them talk in other places.

Frederik:

For example, why we're talking about this conference is because it kind of ties into the episode I had you watch, and I'm sorry for that, but what we watched was an episode called the Megalith, if I remember correctly there.

Frederik:

And it's from season five, episode six, if I'm not mistaken.

Frederik:

But they talk about stone and the alien or magic properties of stone, and it kind of ties into what you're doing and how do you reflect on what you're.

Frederik:

What they were saying in the episode, because you have a not different, but novel approach on how we can look upon stone as a material in our culture, so to say.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah, novel approaches certainly what I was accused of during my viva by two senior professors.

Charlotte Call:

And I fought with them and I won.

Charlotte Call:

So, yeah, I think what I found incredibly frustrating was that they came in the episode tantalizingly close to actually almost my perspective, but they just missed.

Charlotte Call:

They were almost there.

Charlotte Call:

They almost reached the lofty heights of whatever I wrote in my thesis three years ago, but then they just missed it.

Charlotte Call:

So to kind of explain, I guess a little bit where I'm coming from with my theories surrounding materiality in stone is one of the things I'm really interested in is this idea that materials can have agency.

Charlotte Call:

Now I have to be careful when I say that because I can be.

Charlotte Call:

I have been accused of animism, and that's totally not my vibe.

Charlotte Call:

That's not what I'm getting at.

Charlotte Call:

I don't think that there are spirits in objects.

Charlotte Call:

I don't think that objects can obviously get up and move on their own, like, obviously.

Charlotte Call:

But what I mean when I say agency is that an object can act on us, but only sort of if we almost allow it to in conjunction or sort of in relation to our human ideas about that object.

Charlotte Call:

And that's something.

Charlotte Call:

So there's an anthropologist dude called Alfred Gel who wrote about primary agency and secondary agency.

Charlotte Call:

Primary agency is what humans and animals can exhibit.

Charlotte Call:

You act of your own accord.

Charlotte Call:

My cat just walked into the room and wandered around.

Charlotte Call:

He is a primary agent.

Charlotte Call:

He does what he wants.

Charlotte Call:

Secondary agency is an object that cannot act of its own accord, but instead it has a kind of an agency in relation to someone with.

Charlotte Call:

Or something with primary agency.

Charlotte Call:

So a piece of stone that's sitting on your desk is not a primary agent.

Charlotte Call:

It's not going to get up and wander off.

Charlotte Call:

You as a human, though, if you see that piece of stone, if you feel like an emotional connection to it, you are giving that stone agency.

Charlotte Call:

You are giving it the ability to act on you.

Charlotte Call:

I have stuff in my house that I have an emotional attachment to.

Charlotte Call:

And I know why that is.

Charlotte Call:

It's because I like the texture, I like the shape, I like the history.

Charlotte Call:

Those objects don't have primary agency.

Charlotte Call:

They don't have a spirit within them.

Charlotte Call:

But I am, as a human, with my sort of background, with my own kind of sets of emotions and experiences, I am sort of imbuing them with agency.

Charlotte Call:

Now, all this to say to circle back round to ancient aliens is they discuss the idea that stone has particular properties that make it appealing to humans.

Charlotte Call:

That's true.

Charlotte Call:

That is absolutely true.

Charlotte Call:

Because we've chosen to use stone as a building material.

Charlotte Call:

We, you know, it's convenient and it's durable and it has all these practical properties.

Charlotte Call:

But we have chosen to, like, have this emotional connection with it so that that is a kind of a thing that they are acknowledging.

Charlotte Call:

What they then don't do is realize that they are having this emotional reaction.

Charlotte Call:

They are seeing stone almost as a primary agent.

Charlotte Call:

I mean, probably at some point, I'm sure one of them would say that stone could just get up and walk around maybe.

Charlotte Call:

So they come close to realizing that they are co shaping, that's the word, where you kind of create an object's agency.

Charlotte Call:

They come close to that, when they say that they know that stone has properties, but then it just explodes into chaos.

Charlotte Call:

And that I found super interesting.

Charlotte Call:

So close, but yet so far.

Frederik:

Do you have an example of building or building material where we see this kind of, what did you call it?

Charlotte Call:

CO shaping?

Charlotte Call:

CO shaping, Secondary agency, yes.

Charlotte Call:

In fact, in my very own Manchester, my very own city, we have a building in Manchester Central Library.

Charlotte Call:

It's from the:

Charlotte Call:

It's a lovely kind of neoclassical building.

Charlotte Call:

It's made from Portland stone.

Charlotte Call:

Portland stone is a beautiful white stone.

Charlotte Call:

It comes from the south of England.

Charlotte Call:

It comes from an island called Portland, which is near, I want to say, Dorset.

Charlotte Call:

My geography is dreadful.

Charlotte Call:

Portland stone is a lovely, beautiful stone and it's been used in some of our major buildings in the UK and now around the world.

Charlotte Call:

A lot of the government buildings in London are built from Portland stone.

Charlotte Call:

So Whitehall, the Foreign Office buildings, they're all Portland stone.

Charlotte Call:

There's a cat again, a primary agent doing what he does.

Charlotte Call:

Portland stone, it has these inherent material properties.

Charlotte Call:

It's a strong building stone.

Charlotte Call:

It's got a lovely kind of white color to it.

Charlotte Call:

It's pretty pollution resistant as well.

Charlotte Call:

This is kind of like as humans we kind of.

Charlotte Call:

That's what first sort of attaches us to it.

Charlotte Call:

We look at it and we think, oh yeah, that's good, we can use this.

Charlotte Call:

So then we start using it in our buildings.

Charlotte Call:

It starts to be used for buildings that are particularly culturally relevant.

Charlotte Call:

So it becomes associated with that kind of cultural relevance.

Charlotte Call:

It picks up this culture to it.

Charlotte Call:

You start using a stone for political buildings or buildings where there's power, it becomes associated with power.

Charlotte Call:

So London used Portland stone a lot more and earlier than Manchester did.

Charlotte Call:

When Manchester decided to kind of step up its game, so to speak, as a kind of a powerful, influential city, it looked at what London had done and it said, we can use Portland stone for our important buildings.

Charlotte Call:

We will take some of this emotional kind of attachment that people have to Portland stone and we can transfer it over to Manchester.

Charlotte Call:

We can make Manchester look powerful by imitating London.

Charlotte Call:

So and what we have then is Portland stone has been used for all these culturally relevant buildings.

Charlotte Call:

It then gets designated.

Charlotte Call:

I can't remember when I want to say, like quite recently, but I'm not even going to try and guess the date historian.

Charlotte Call:

But with no memory for dates, it was designated a heritage stone by the International Union of Geological Sciences.

Charlotte Call:

Yep, geological sciences.

Charlotte Call:

And it sort of self reinforces, it's this self reinforcing narrative that this stone is good and important.

Charlotte Call:

And that if you build something from the stone, it will sort of have a prestige to it, if that makes sense.

Charlotte Call:

And that's one of my favorite examples, partly because it's right here in Manchester.

Frederik:

Yeah.

Frederik:

And that's interesting from several aspects because you're talking about how we give stone a meaning and it's something we actually see in the ancient alien narrative and start to look at it.

Frederik:

If we would look at several more episodes, which one of us at least have done the mistake of doing.

Frederik:

We see a couple of stones appearing again and again, all with magical properties.

Frederik:

We have granite, we have quartz, it's crystals and it's andesite.

Frederik:

All these dense, heavy stones that they associate with aliens.

Frederik:

Do you see the same kind of connection there?

Charlotte Call:

Yeah.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, yes, entirely.

Charlotte Call:

And actually that's something I would love to chat to you more about, especially quartz in particular.

Charlotte Call:

There's something about it that humans have loved.

Charlotte Call:

Maybe it's the way that it catches the light or something like that.

Charlotte Call:

But then it just, it spirals, it snowballs.

Charlotte Call:

Throughout history, it becomes, ooh, were the crystal skulls made of quartz?

Charlotte Call:

Are there crystals?

Charlotte Call:

Thank you.

Charlotte Call:

I knew that.

Charlotte Call:

So it becomes a self reinforcing thing.

Charlotte Call:

It's exactly the same thing.

Charlotte Call:

And what were the other ones you mentioned?

Charlotte Call:

The very dense ones.

Frederik:

So we have granite and andesite.

Charlotte Call:

That one.

Frederik:

So andesite you find in South America, but ancient have.

Frederik:

They usually claim everything is granite, but andesite is what we find in Pumapunko and sites throughout South America.

Frederik:

And it's a very dense, heavy stone.

Frederik:

And it's some.

Frederik:

In some sense it's similar hardness as granite.

Frederik:

And again, it's a very durable and easy stone to work with.

Frederik:

In that sense.

Frederik:

Something you have to remember when working with stone is that hardness of the stone actually makes it easier to shape.

Frederik:

In a sense, it sounds illogical, but when we look at experiments, especially in experimental archaeology that's been done both in Egypt and in South America, they both come to the conclusion that many work stone, especially with stone tools.

Frederik:

So if you use flint, shade or the volcanic rock, was it a very black.

Frederik:

They made surgery tool over, like obsidian.

Frederik:

Obsidian.

Frederik:

Those tools works better.

Frederik:

The hole, the stone is when you want to shape it.

Charlotte Call:

Okay.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, that's fascinating.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah.

Charlotte Call:

And of course, obviously that's also interesting because the hardness and the durability also presumably make it last longer as well.

Charlotte Call:

Which is, I think, a property that humans really love about stone.

Charlotte Call:

Stuff that lasts for ages is something that really appeals to us as humans.

Frederik:

Yeah.

Frederik:

It shows in our type of buildings.

Frederik:

We see important buildings always being made in stone.

Frederik:

And ancient Egypt is a brilliant example of that.

Frederik:

For example, the royal palaces, we would picture them built in white marble or something like that.

Frederik:

No, they built out of mud bricks because the royal palace wasn't as important as the royal tomb or the temples that need to be for ages, the, you know, radiant, common goals.

Frederik:

But when they pass into the world of the gods is when it's, you know, everlasting.

Frederik:

And therefore, we need an everlasting material to work with.

Frederik:

So they do ascribe properties to the stone and importance to it, but not necessarily stone itself in that sense.

Frederik:

This doesn't carry a magical property, but to them, it symbolize a sort of magic when they use it in a pyramid or in a temple.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah.

Charlotte Call:

And that actually.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, that is an interesting one, is like, when does stone pick up the kind of.

Charlotte Call:

The magic.

Charlotte Call:

If you want to see magic in stone, when does it pick it up?

Charlotte Call:

Does it pick it up?

Charlotte Call:

When do you see it in the quarry?

Charlotte Call:

When you kind of.

Charlotte Call:

You pry it out.

Charlotte Call:

Which I think is literally the words that they use in ancient aliens.

Charlotte Call:

Like, when did mankind.

Charlotte Call:

You start prying stone out from the quarries, like, when does it pick up that magic?

Charlotte Call:

Yeah, that's interesting.

Charlotte Call:

Does it pick up magic also?

Charlotte Call:

Because you're sort of using it in interesting ways, in ways that it's not kind of ways that it's not obvious that a stone can be used in.

Charlotte Call:

I think what I'm getting at is the old kind of megalith structure with the sort of.

Charlotte Call:

Probably know the name, and I don't.

Charlotte Call:

You got stones standing like that, and you got a stone over the top.

Frederik:

Adoleman, thank you.

Charlotte Call:

Very thorough knowledge from me.

Charlotte Call:

And thank you.

Charlotte Call:

Like, what I find really interesting is that one of the properties of stone is that it is very heavy.

Charlotte Call:

And so it doesn't seem like a logical kind of normal thing to be able to do with it, to kind of balance this heavy stone on top of other stones.

Charlotte Call:

So that in itself, if you're going to look at it like this, is when stone starts to pick up that sort of magic.

Charlotte Call:

And I think, going back to ancient aliens, I think one of the things that was mentioned in several of the sites that they talk about is kind of, how did they do this?

Charlotte Call:

And that's like, well, experimental archaeology is a thing.

Charlotte Call:

We kind of know how they did it.

Charlotte Call:

But I find it very interesting that this stone has this property of weight, which makes it difficult to maneuver and manipulate.

Charlotte Call:

Therefore, when you see kind of stones balanced on top of each other in weird configurations.

Charlotte Call:

You're immediately thinking, that's so heavy.

Charlotte Call:

We could never do that.

Charlotte Call:

You're having that emotional response to Stone's property.

Charlotte Call:

And I'm just going to say it.

Charlotte Call:

That's where Stone has this secondary agency.

Charlotte Call:

It's kind of working with us.

Frederik:

And it's interesting because that agency is most likely not the agency it had for people of the time.

Frederik:

If you go back to the dolmen, they.

Frederik:

If you look at dolmens and how they are used, usually used over generation, we can talk, you know, a century or longer, millennia.

Frederik:

We see these places being reused and it doesn't seem as the structure itself is the magic part because they knew how to build it.

Frederik:

That wasn't the, you know, strange.

Frederik:

The magic was going on in there.

Charlotte Call:

That's interesting.

Frederik:

But yeah, so for them the importance wasn't the construction because.

Frederik:

Yeah, we did it.

Frederik:

We, you know, it's not that hard.

Frederik:

You know, have to pull this.

Charlotte Call:

You just levitate it.

Charlotte Call:

Right.

Frederik:

We had this magical bonds from the aliens.

Charlotte Call:

Simple.

Charlotte Call:

Why are you making such a fuss?

Charlotte Call:

Well, yeah, and sorry, I think that goes back to actually something else that ancient aliens kind of type people seem to forget is that they say sort of like, why don't we build pyramids today?

Charlotte Call:

Why don't we do this?

Charlotte Call:

And it's like because we've moved on.

Charlotte Call:

We have our own kind of engineering marvels.

Charlotte Call:

We just, we don't think of them as marvels because we see them every day.

Charlotte Call:

A skyscraper.

Frederik:

Yeah, that's a engineering marvelous selfie.

Charlotte Call:

Exactly.

Charlotte Call:

I mean, it's so sometimes hideous depending on how it looks, but it is kind of.

Charlotte Call:

It's just like our perception of what is miraculous or our perception of what is kind of.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah, miraculous.

Charlotte Call:

I just use that word again.

Charlotte Call:

Has changed over time.

Charlotte Call:

So it's like we're finding things that we could or were just built easily.

Charlotte Call:

We're looking at them and thinking, well, how did we build them?

Charlotte Call:

But yeah, I just went off on one there.

Frederik:

But we still build pyramids today.

Frederik:

We just use different materials.

Frederik:

I mean, go to Los Angeles, you have two, three pyramids.

Frederik:

The Louvre has a pyramid.

Charlotte Call:

Nicolas Cage's tomb, he's built a pyramid shaped tomb in New Orleans in a cemetery.

Frederik:

I'm not that surprised, actually.

Frederik:

Not at all, to be honest.

Charlotte Call:

Love that for him.

Charlotte Call:

He's got his tomb ready and waiting and it's a pyramid.

Frederik:

I mean, I wouldn't mind a pyramid for my tomb, but there's a discussion I have to have with other people.

Charlotte Call:

I Guess do you really want the Nicolas Cage vibe with it though?

Charlotte Call:

Because I mean, he will be the OG pyramid or the modern pyramid too.

Frederik:

Now I could maybe live with a stone ship or something like that.

Frederik:

But when in the episode they talk about all these different approaches and from experience, it's the so called shotgun approach.

Frederik:

They just bombast you with several sites, time periods, locations, everything is spread out and then they try to bind it with a narrative.

Frederik:

How did you react to this?

Frederik:

Did you fall for it?

Frederik:

Or was it just a frustrating experience?

Charlotte Call:

And this is where me being a historian, I probably found it more confusing than I should have done.

Charlotte Call:

nkly anything before than the:

Charlotte Call:

I don't understand anything back there.

Charlotte Call:

It's darkness.

Charlotte Call:

No, not quite.

Charlotte Call:

But actually that is something that did strike me a bit like I have a rough idea of sort of, you know, prehistoric time periods.

Charlotte Call:

I can get a feel.

Charlotte Call:

I've been around many museums, but for someone who has no idea, I can see that this like it is literally, it's just a bombarding.

Charlotte Call:

It's almost like a kind of a.

Charlotte Call:

Toward the end, at least, it got worse as well.

Charlotte Call:

They were just throwing things at me.

Charlotte Call:

I can see that it would be confusing.

Charlotte Call:

There was stuff that I just.

Charlotte Call:

I don't have much of a reference point for.

Charlotte Call:

So I was just thinking I could really use an archeologist to explain this to me, so.

Charlotte Call:

Hello?

Charlotte Call:

Yeah, definitely.

Charlotte Call:

And I think that's a lot of what they go for, isn't it?

Charlotte Call:

Just throw things at people and see.

Frederik:

What sticks in most times.

Frederik:

So one side to bring up is Avonbury.

Frederik:

And that's something you visited before?

Charlotte Call:

Yeah, I haven't been to Stonehenge, but I have been to Avebury.

Charlotte Call:

Avebury is a really interesting site and people will say that they have a much stronger emotional reaction to Avebury than to Stonehenge, because you can walk among the stones, you can touch the stones, you can feel the vibrations if you are so inclined.

Charlotte Call:

I have touched Avebury stones.

Charlotte Call:

I did not feel any vibrations, but maybe it was because I was not so inclined.

Charlotte Call:

What I found really interesting about Avebury though, is, and this is something that doesn't really get talked about, although it is in the little museum on site, is that some of the stones are not in their original places.

Charlotte Call:

Avery has one of the things, I think they even say it in the Ancient Aliens is that the stone circle is so that it's got a village in it.

Charlotte Call:

It's like, well, okay, that's very cute and all, but the village is really small.

Charlotte Call:

And also they moved the stones to build the village.

Charlotte Call:

Like some of them were knocked down, some of them were moved.

Charlotte Call:

It's not the original site.

Charlotte Call:

So when you go there and you have this emotional reaction to it, what are you reacting to?

Charlotte Call:

Is a question I don't know the answer to and I don't think it needs an answer.

Charlotte Call:

But I think it's a question to ask.

Charlotte Call:

Because you're not reacting to the authentic site.

Frederik:

No.

Frederik:

And I think that's a con, not confusion, but this idea we have about ancient site, that they are all original and many of them aren't, frankly, many of them are reconstructions or some are better, some are worse.

Frederik:

And I mean, if we go to, for example, Athens, the Panthenon people, imagine that, oh, it's been there for ages and look like this for ages.

Frederik:

But almost all of it is reconstructed.

Frederik:

It's not original in that sense.

Frederik:

People have gone back to old painters and tried as best as we could.

Frederik:

But the sites are in a way reborn as archeologists have dealt with it.

Frederik:

course, archeologists in the:

Frederik:

For example, some excavated sites with dynamites, some didn't.

Frederik:

And I mean, in the best of worlds, they would have just left it as is because the sites would have been in better shape today.

Frederik:

But that's a long, long discussion that I think we will have in another episode.

Frederik:

But there is this imagination of a site being ancient.

Frederik:

And I think many associated with their identity and culture and especially the New age movement, have this idea of nationality and spirituality that can be a bit problematic in a sense.

Frederik:

But again, they associate it with the idea they have, not necessarily what the site was to the ancient people.

Frederik:

And that's an importance we need to have when we discuss the religion of site and people.

Frederik:

Because, well, I'm archaeologist, but with some religion study now, I mean, we kind of have to think about how they felt about the site and we can't really be sure how they felt about it because we associate, like the tombs, we think of how it was built is the nice part.

Frederik:

But for them it was who was associated with what family live resides in here, what spirits or whatever, not necessarily the site itself.

Frederik:

And we see that engraved goods and other sites, things that they put importance reuse they put other monuments around.

Frederik:

So in Sweden, we have one site that's been used since basically the mainland of Gotland, as a little island in the Baltic was started to be populated.

Frederik:

We have very few dolmens.

Frederik:

We have two of them, one still kind of standing, but this is surrounded by a large Viking Age stone ship and three more a bit further away.

Frederik:

We have a lot of Bronze Age graves in the area.

Frederik:

And people have put importance inside this little dolmen.

Frederik:

There's like 23 kilos of human remains we have excavated.

Charlotte Call:

I love that that's a specific.

Charlotte Call:

Someone grouped them and weighed them.

Charlotte Call:

23 kilos of human REM remains.

Frederik:

And if we look at teeth, it's like.

Frederik:

Now, I don't remember exactly, but I think it's like 90 individuals.

Charlotte Call:

Right.

Frederik:

So again, there's importance to decide that the construction.

Frederik:

But how much magic it is I don't think really is in the construction, but more of who's inside it, so to say.

Frederik:

But of course, representing this idea in stones make it eternal, which might be the magic, but it's not as fancy as aliens did it.

Frederik:

Or the stone has a magical proprium.

Frederik:

I think they say that.

Frederik:

I think it's Stone Age to talk about that they go there to be healed.

Frederik:

That quote is from Jeffrey De Mon, French author from Medieval Ages.

Frederik:

Not any scientific base for the claim that you went there to get healed, but we see that in other sides that now.

Frederik:

I lost the thread completely.

Frederik:

Damn Jeffrey De Mamanth.

Charlotte Call:

So it's very medieval of him to come back and haunt you and disturb your.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah, you're thinking, that's very medieval.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah.

Charlotte Call:

And you see, I thought of something as well, but now I've lost it.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, yes.

Charlotte Call:

The idea of the stone being eternal as being the magic or the magic because it's what's left over that we see.

Charlotte Call:

And I think your point about that being not as exciting, possibly as the ancient aliens thing is really interesting because.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, and this is where I'm gonna go.

Charlotte Call:

A bit like psychology.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, no.

Charlotte Call:

Bit of psychoanalysis on the ancient aliens people.

Charlotte Call:

I wonder if.

Charlotte Call:

Because one of the reasons that I think as humans we are attracted to stone and building everlasting monuments is frankly, because humans are very, very finite creatures in world history.

Charlotte Call:

We are not around for long individually and as different eras and also just as a species, we have not been around for long.

Charlotte Call:

I think humans very much feel their mortality.

Charlotte Call:

And I wonder in some way if the ancient aliens people don't want to acknowledge their own mortality.

Charlotte Call:

And that's why they're sort of ascribing these monuments to like a much bigger sort of immortal kind of vibe to them, rather than just sort of.

Charlotte Call:

Rather than just acknowledging that, yes, stone is stone eternal though, that's another issue.

Charlotte Call:

Stone is kind of.

Charlotte Call:

It's long lasting, it has longevity.

Charlotte Call:

You can build something from stone and it might be there in 100 years, probably will be.

Charlotte Call:

Instead of just straight up acknowledging that and acknowledging that it's because of our fallibility as walking meat sacks, essentially, who will decay and turn into dust.

Charlotte Call:

Instead of acknowledging that they have to make it bigger, they have to make it something crazier and more chaotic.

Charlotte Call:

You know, maybe they're just all very, very insecure about death.

Charlotte Call:

Maybe that's it.

Frederik:

I mean, we have these New age elements within the ancient alien sphere that of course ties to your own mortality in a sense.

Frederik:

So, I mean, I think it's quite fair to describe ancient alien similar ideas as a cult because I think it fits better in that narrative because what they're doing is in science.

Frederik:

I think everyone can be quite, can agree, at least those who listen here.

Frederik:

I think we can agree that this is science and they have these strong cult leaders and the idea of afterlife.

Frederik:

If you start to dig deeper down in there, that you have these end of day cults based on ancient aliens and all of that.

Frederik:

So we all ties, or it all ties into a cult mentality.

Frederik:

It's hard to leave it when you get into it.

Frederik:

Radicalization and all of that.

Frederik:

And on that note, I want to, since we were originally talking about Avonbury, I mean, they don't really say much about the place other than it's, you know, weird that they put it up because everything is weird if you don't look into it properly.

Frederik:

But we have this stone circle, of course it's connected to a ufo because UFO is round.

Frederik:

We have stone circle round plus round.

Frederik:

But we have a connection.

Frederik:

And it's Giorgio Suckalosus make a little quote in here that goes something like this.

Frederik:

The mythologies in conjunction with Avebury always point to the sky, to some celestial beings, the Shining Ones, as they were called, descending from the sky.

Frederik:

And educated people in various disciplines.

Frederik:

Agriculture, mathematics, geometry, engineering.

Frederik:

And so the quote is basically he talk about the mythology about Avonbury and the Shining Ones.

Frederik:

I just want to bring up the Shining One connection to, you know, educate someone who might not.

Charlotte Call:

I will say the Shining Ones.

Charlotte Call:

That was.

Charlotte Call:

I'd never heard of them before.

Charlotte Call:

Whoever they are, they are.

Charlotte Call:

They shine.

Charlotte Call:

They're out there and they shine.

Charlotte Call:

That's I didn't even understand.

Charlotte Call:

Honestly, I did.

Charlotte Call:

I could not make sense of his explanation and I wasn't sure if it was worth googling, so I just thought I'd ask you.

Frederik:

Yeah, I mean, luckily I'm here and can answer this question because it's a deep cut.

Frederik:

It's a real deep cut.

Frederik:

So the term the Shining Ones is not connected to any legends, of course, or now it's connected because in modern day it's become associated.

Frederik:

We have modern legends.

Frederik:

That is not part of an ancient historical narrative about the site.

Frederik:

Now, the Shining Ones are lifted directly from two authors who create a book.

Frederik:

They are named Philip Gardner and Gary Olsen.

Frederik:

They wrote a book, the Shining Ones, the world's most powerful secret society revealed.

Frederik:

And can you guess what's on the front of the COVID Is it one of those eyes?

Charlotte Call:

Is it the eye in the pillow?

Frederik:

No, it's worse.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, what's worse?

Frederik:

It's a Star of David.

Charlotte Call:

Oh.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, no.

Frederik:

So of course this is about a secret society and their idea is that the angels from Book of Enoch has come down and they start to take over the world, creating all the structures and the important things to set up governments and control everything in the background.

Frederik:

And then at one point they let the Templars take over that role.

Frederik:

And the Templars might or might not still be around.

Frederik:

And then of course the Freemasons are still doing this behind the curtains.

Frederik:

But this narrative has been adopted by ancient aliens.

Frederik:

So it kind of, you know, this idea of the Reptilians and all of that.

Frederik:

The whole book is basically the.

Frederik:

What's the Russian anti Jewish text, do you remember?

Charlotte Call:

Oh, the Russian one.

Charlotte Call:

I know there was one by Henry.

Charlotte Call:

Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Frederik:

Yeah, exactly.

Frederik:

So it's basically a version of that, but in a new age language.

Frederik:

And what's interesting is there is a connection more here between Gardner and Olsson.

Frederik:

Yeah, Olsson, that's a Swedish name.

Frederik:

So there's also a connection between their narratives because they didn't just make up everything themselves.

Frederik:

In that books we find influence from another source, Mr.

Frederik:

Graham Hancock and his white Aryan supremacy priesthood that he talk about in his book that he wrote with Robert Bal back in the 90s.

Frederik:

Again, the secret cabal controlling everything behind the curtains.

Frederik:

So we have this again, deep, as you said, you don't saw any inherently racist in the episode because they hide it with the keywords like this.

Charlotte Call:

Really getting that impression.

Charlotte Call:

So the Shining Ones is basically a sort of a dog whistle then, isn't it?

Charlotte Call:

It's basically just low Key.

Charlotte Call:

Here we go.

Charlotte Call:

When I say that you're going to conjure all of this up and when.

Frederik:

You Google Shining Wand, you will get to this book and you will get more and more radicalized.

Frederik:

And they use it as a kind of catch all for Reptilians and Atlantis and Freemasons and I can't.

Charlotte Call:

That's too much.

Charlotte Call:

I can't.

Charlotte Call:

I.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah, okay.

Charlotte Call:

Okay.

Frederik:

So again, it looks innocent and good and kind of, you know, smooth on the television, but that's because they don't say the.

Frederik:

Those part out loud when they kind of catch you in it.

Charlotte Call:

So they've never then explained the Shining Ones properly.

Charlotte Call:

And that wasn't the first episode that it.

Frederik:

No, it repeats in several episodes.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, that's creepy.

Frederik:

So you have.

Frederik:

And you have several versions of them too that you catch if you watch it enough of times because we have the Star Shield runs that basically that's most connected to Native American folklore, but not as they really represent it.

Frederik:

Again, it's a bastardization.

Frederik:

Again, they're rewriting Native American legends to fit their preferred narrative.

Frederik:

So it's a plastic shamanist that's going on in there.

Frederik:

And again, it's deeply connected to the New age move.

Charlotte Call:

Right, okay.

Charlotte Call:

And I find it so fascinating that all these, this whole racist world is just built on top of stone and that's the foundation.

Charlotte Call:

And they've just taken it.

Charlotte Call:

They've taken their emotional reaction to walking into a site and not having a clue about it.

Charlotte Call:

They've gone with.

Charlotte Call:

They've basically been, I don't know, you see, I'm searching for an analogy, but I don't want to insult either human toddlers or animals I'm searching for.

Charlotte Call:

They've just basically grabbed onto the first shiny thing they saw, haven't bothered to do the research because research is boring and difficult.

Charlotte Call:

And then they've just added layers and layers of shiny things until they've built this temple out of nothing.

Charlotte Call:

Basically terrifying.

Charlotte Call:

Excellent.

Frederik:

And I mean, stone is an important part of human history in many aspects.

Frederik:

For example, without flint tools, our society wouldn't have gotten to the length as quickly as we did.

Frederik:

And I mean, there is importance and moving heavy stone is difficult, but it's not beyond.

Frederik:

And we've shown again, again, experimental archaeology, moving stones.

Frederik:

And there's videos from.

Frederik:

It's.

Frederik:

I think it's around Indonesia.

Frederik:

There was these people, Nia's people, I think they're called.

Frederik:

And they.

Frederik:

For.

Frederik:

I don't remember exactly why they had this tradition, but once a year they used to move a 50 ton stone block through the village.

Frederik:

They connected this to something important in their culture.

Frederik:

I don't remember exactly what but we have video of them doing this 50 tone stone block by hand.

Frederik:

And this was:

Frederik:

So I mean it's before today's been known for a long time that we can do it.

Frederik:

It's just that we said we don't have to do it any longer.

Charlotte Call:

Why would you put yourself at risk of injury and horrificness when you can just get a crane to do it for you?

Frederik:

My favorite example is when they're trying to demonstrate that it's impossible to move with modern machinery.

Frederik:

We see them using the wrong tool for the job.

Frederik:

So they use a crane that's really meant to, you know, pick up some smaller stuff and lift up a couple of meters and then let's lift a 50 ton block up on this truck that's not designed to carry that type of load.

Frederik:

But if you design a truck that's supposed to move this and build it, if we move it just fine.

Frederik:

Or a crane, a proper construction crane instead for that flinky rental that you got to the gas station.

Frederik:

I mean.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah.

Charlotte Call:

Have they not seen like modern mining and quarrying machinery?

Charlotte Call:

It's massive.

Charlotte Call:

It's huge.

Charlotte Call:

It's.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah.

Charlotte Call:

That's ridiculous.

Charlotte Call:

They are ridiculous.

Frederik:

I'm sure they've seen this but they just don't show it in the show.

Charlotte Call:

Are they just walking around?

Charlotte Call:

Just with blinks?

Charlotte Call:

Maybe.

Charlotte Call:

Maybe that's it.

Charlotte Call:

Maybe they just don't.

Frederik:

I guess it's some sort of cognitive dissonance going on there that they know it exists but they don't make the connection.

Frederik:

Or they don't want to.

Charlotte Call:

Don't want to.

Frederik:

Again, we have this sort of cult mentality.

Frederik:

So if the cult leader says this is impossible, then it must be impossible.

Frederik:

And we don't go online to, you.

Charlotte Call:

Know, we only go online to look up the shining one.

Charlotte Call:

Yes.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah.

Charlotte Call:

Not.

Charlotte Call:

Not heavy duty machinery that can move stones.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah.

Frederik:

I mean the largest construction ever moved is an oil platform called Troll 2 weighing something like 5,000 tons.

Frederik:

Some imaginary moved by 20 boats.

Charlotte Call:

Right.

Charlotte Call:

So not impossible.

Charlotte Call:

Just a lot of resources.

Charlotte Call:

But not impossible.

Frederik:

Yeah, yeah.

Frederik:

Slowly and securely.

Frederik:

And that's weigh a lot more.

Frederik:

Or is it 5 million tons?

Frederik:

It's an astronomical amount of weight.

Frederik:

So I mean these ideas, rather silly but again they again put some magic thought to the stone that don't really fit.

Charlotte Call:

But yeah, that's also.

Charlotte Call:

It's just reminding me this idea of going back to the 19th century is my favorite thing to say.

Charlotte Call:

A guy called Belzoni did a lot of work on the pyramids, the Great Pyramid specifically.

Charlotte Call:

I think he was one of the ones who dynamited the pyramids.

Charlotte Call:

So that's kind of awkward, but he describes.

Charlotte Call:

Or he describes kind of coming across the pyramids and sort of like walking across the desert and finding them.

Charlotte Call:

And as with many 19th century descriptions of archaeological sites, one of the things that strikes him is that the stones are so big, they're so heavy, and how did they move them?

Charlotte Call:

So this is something that has been a question for so long, but Belzoni didn't ascribe it to aliens.

Charlotte Call:

Belzoni was an engineer.

Charlotte Call:

The dude he worked with, whose name I cannot remember, was also an engineer as well.

Charlotte Call:

They knew that it was.

Charlotte Call:

I mean, actually.

Charlotte Call:

Ooh, interesting point.

Charlotte Call:

So in the British Museum, where Britain keeps all of its stolen stuff, there is in fact, a colossal granite head of Rameses.

Charlotte Call:

I'm not an Egyptologist.

Charlotte Call:

It's one of the Rameses.

Charlotte Call:

And it's big.

Charlotte Call:

It's very big.

Charlotte Call:

And it must be heavy.

Charlotte Call:

It's not like a kind of a small head.

Charlotte Call:

It's big.

Charlotte Call:

Belzoni moved that out of Egypt.

Charlotte Call:

He moved it.

Charlotte Call:

I can't remember how he did it, but he did it because he was an engineer.

Charlotte Call:

And that's what you do when you're an engineer.

Charlotte Call:

You move things that seem impossible.

Charlotte Call:

And it's actually, now that I think about it, in the 19th century, they moved, transported, and packed so many large bits of stone.

Frederik:

Yeah.

Frederik:

Several obelisks went across Europe.

Frederik:

And same way, if we go back to Roman times, the Romans loved obelisks.

Frederik:

They moved them across the Roman Empire, put it up in different arenas and squares.

Frederik:

I mean, and they moved it with technology they had.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah.

Frederik:

And it's not that far from what the ancient Egyptians would had thousand years earlier.

Frederik:

We hadn't developed.

Frederik:

I mean, they didn't have steam engines in the Romans or whatever, but.

Frederik:

Yeah.

Frederik:

In the 19th century, we moved obelisk from Egypt to New York.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah, we've always done it.

Charlotte Call:

We've always moved heavy things.

Charlotte Call:

It's just.

Charlotte Call:

It is that disconnect of.

Charlotte Call:

We know that this stone is so freaking heavy.

Charlotte Call:

So there is just like.

Charlotte Call:

It just takes a minute to.

Charlotte Call:

When you're standing there as an individual to imagine how you could move it.

Frederik:

Yeah.

Charlotte Call:

And that's.

Charlotte Call:

That's again, that's where the ancient aliens people just don't make that leap.

Charlotte Call:

They don't understand that if they're standing in front of A huge stone kind of construction.

Charlotte Call:

It's not just them as an individual that would have built it or moved it.

Charlotte Call:

It's like a people with knowledge of engineering and like loads of people would have done it.

Charlotte Call:

It's just not.

Charlotte Call:

They're just not that clever, the ancient aliens people, they're just not that self aware.

Frederik:

No, but they kind of look upon people as inferior.

Frederik:

I think that's one of the main issues, that they don't look at these cultures as capable and we see that in how they can't imagine things in their stories and all that.

Frederik:

And I want to move on to a different site.

Frederik:

Palmasur and the stone spheres of Costa Rica.

Frederik:

Those something you've been familiar with before or was this a first?

Charlotte Call:

I did not know that there were round bits of stone lurking in the world.

Charlotte Call:

I mean, I know that stone can be round.

Charlotte Call:

I didn't know that there were these specific sites.

Charlotte Call:

And frankly I'm fascinated because I look at a round bit of stone and maybe this is like my GCSE and geography kicking in.

Charlotte Call:

And I remember stuff about erosion and I think about all the lovely smooth pebbles that I've picked up off the seashore.

Charlotte Call:

And hagstones as well, that's a folklore term, but hagstones, stones with holes bored in them, erosion does magical things.

Charlotte Call:

So I would look at a round stone and think, well, okay, maybe someone did carve it.

Charlotte Call:

But also if it's by a river, it was probably the river.

Charlotte Call:

Apparently, as I learned on Ancient Aliens, that is not the case.

Charlotte Call:

They were not done by rivers.

Frederik:

No.

Frederik:

So in this section they talk about two different sites.

Frederik:

So we have the Palmasur or the Stonehenge Fair of Costa Rica.

Frederik:

to:

Frederik:

And from the archaeological evidence we have, this stone sphere seems to have been created earliest 600 CE in the episode.

Frederik:

They want to bring it back a couple of thousands of years, but now most likely 600 CE.

Frederik:

Now it's hard to date because, well, we constantly date stone in that sense.

Frederik:

We could use thermoluminescence dating, but it wouldn't be applicable in this case since they have been, you know, out in the sun for a bit too long.

Frederik:

But in the show they claim that these are 96% perfect spherical.

Frederik:

Do you know where this claim comes from?

Charlotte Call:

No.

Frederik:

So an archaeologist named Samuel Lotharp went around measuring and he had a measuring tape and he measured all the stones and he put down an average by the third decimal.

Frederik:

His measuring tape can't do third decimal.

Frederik:

But that's why this claim comes, because people read that and said, oh, that's very accurate, and didn't read what's before and after.

Frederik:

And that's how we got 96% accuracy.

Frederik:

They are not that.

Frederik:

If you look at them, they look really nice and spherical, but if you would put any sort of, you know, very advanced, more than a measuring tape measuring on, and you would notice that they are often a little bit square.

Frederik:

I mean, it's not to diminish the craftsmanship of the people of the time, but it's not this magical call spherical stone.

Frederik:

But then they go to Bosnia where our friend Osmanos Manegic, the famous Bosnian pyramid guy, steps in and he talks about the Bosnian spheres.

Frederik:

That's again, thousands and thousands of years old.

Frederik:

And here we have a little disconnect and conflict in Ancient Aliens because mere Osmanagids, he claims that these spheres in Bosnia are, you know, proper spheres carved by men.

Frederik:

Scotch.

Frederik:

That you probably saw in the episode.

Frederik:

He's a geologist.

Frederik:

He doesn't agree with that, actually.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, I didn't notice.

Charlotte Call:

I didn't notice that.

Frederik:

So Robert Scott's theologist, he had these weird ideas of the Sphinx and all of that, but.

Frederik:

And he doesn't really like the pyramids in Bosnia either.

Frederik:

You think those are here, but they have a bit of a conflict, but you never see that in the episode.

Frederik:

So there is a little bit of infighting in ancient alien community.

Frederik:

But the spheres in Bosnia, as far as I can tell, are, as you said, erosion.

Charlotte Call:

Right, okay.

Charlotte Call:

Because they were by a river, weren't they?

Frederik:

Yeah, all of them is by a river.

Frederik:

They are by something that might have shaped them.

Frederik:

And we have this idea in the Ancient Alien that nature can't do spheres or straight for some reason.

Charlotte Call:

I think nature would like to disagree with that very much.

Frederik:

Nature disagree with that very much.

Frederik:

And it shows it as often it can.

Frederik:

But, yeah, we have this.

Frederik:

Again, they're trying to explain something that doesn't need explanation without using the proper explanations for it.

Charlotte Call:

And again, I'm just going to keep coming back to this.

Charlotte Call:

It's such an emotional reaction as well, that you're walking through a forest or you're walking somewhere and you see something round and you think, oh, that's out of place.

Charlotte Call:

But you just go with your immediate kind of, ooh, shiny what can I kind of do to make this the most interesting thing?

Charlotte Call:

You don't just kind of say it was a river, but it's interesting if it was a river as well, because isn't that amazing that the river has kind of, like, tumbled this stone and created this thing?

Charlotte Call:

That is amazing in itself.

Charlotte Call:

Why do you need to add the aliens?

Frederik:

Because, again, they want to make it more special.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah, yeah.

Frederik:

And what's interesting is that they put Robert Scotch and Semiros Manag in the same segment and they kind of cut Scotch out of context because we hear him earlier how fantastic all of these is.

Frederik:

And then we cut directly to Bosnia that he doesn't agree with.

Charlotte Call:

I almost wish I'd known that before I watched it, because I would have paid way more because I think the spheres are toward the end, so I was starting to lose my grip on reality a bit.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, I wish I'd known.

Charlotte Call:

I'm going to have to rewatch just those guys now and see if I can.

Frederik:

Yeah, but they want to make this connection that the spheres around Banjalunka and the spheres in.

Frederik:

In Costa Rica are identical.

Frederik:

They were made by the same people for the same reason.

Frederik:

And how would you have it if they are so far away?

Frederik:

But it must have been some connection.

Frederik:

And how do you travel that fast?

Frederik:

And you need to have a spaceship, naturally.

Frederik:

So that's how they get the logical conclusion.

Frederik:

But again, they get there by leaving out all the other steps.

Charlotte Call:

Like every other stuff they leave out.

Frederik:

Yeah, but that's an example of someone again, putting meaning to stone, even if it's not really there.

Frederik:

Because Osman usually had this nationalistic idea of Bosnia, and that's his preferred narrative, that Bosnia once held this super civilization 10,000 years ago.

Charlotte Call:

I have not heard that as a narrative.

Charlotte Call:

Okay, okay.

Charlotte Call:

Evidence for that from him.

Frederik:

The pyramids.

Charlotte Call:

Oh, sorry.

Charlotte Call:

I should have known.

Charlotte Call:

There were pyramids in Bosnia.

Charlotte Call:

There were pyramids in Bosnia.

Charlotte Call:

You've kept referring to this dude as, like, the pyramid man.

Charlotte Call:

I don't even know what.

Charlotte Call:

There were pyramids in Bosnia.

Frederik:

For those interested, there's an episode out a long time ago, episode 20, I think, where I cover the Bosnian pyramids, everything you want to know about them.

Frederik:

But it's basically hills in Bosnia that looks pyramidical if you look at them from a certain angle.

Charlotte Call:

Okay.

Charlotte Call:

So if you get drunk and squint.

Frederik:

Then you don't even have to be drunk.

Frederik:

From a certain angle, it looks very much like a pyramid.

Frederik:

But as someone who hikes a lot in the mountains, that's not a very uncommon mountain shape, to be honest.

Charlotte Call:

It's nature, isn't it?

Charlotte Call:

Nature does amazing things and I'm sure nature does not appreciate the work being, you know, attributed to aliens.

Frederik:

If you think about it, mountains evolve by just things getting pressed against each other.

Frederik:

The pyramid form is quite repressed.

Charlotte Call:

It works, doesn't it?

Charlotte Call:

Yeah, it's the easiest way of stacking loads of things on top of each other and then they don't fall down.

Charlotte Call:

It's literally the easiest way.

Charlotte Call:

Yeah.

Frederik:

But if people want to hear more from you, where should they go?

Charlotte Call:

I would say check out my YouTube channel.

Charlotte Call:

I am the applied historian on YouTube.

Frederik:

Thank you very much for your time.

Frederik:

And again I'm sorry for letting you watching this.

Charlotte Call:

I forgive you.

Charlotte Call:

It's okay.

Charlotte Call:

I might even come back too.

:

And again, a huge thank you to Charlotte.

:

And in the show notes you will find links to all of her stuff.

:

And you should definitely go and check out her channel.

:

And if you happen to be in Manchester, make sure to catch her tour that she has in the city regarding its stones.

:

It's a really interesting journey through Manchester and brings up new ways on how to look and engage with your surroundings.

:

Now, until next time, please spread the word by leaving a positive review on platforms like itunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to this.

:

And even better, recommend an episode or two to your friends.

:

It really helps the show.

:

And on the website you find links to Charlotte's stuff this week.

:

And if you want to support the show, head over to patreon.com diggingupancient aliens and if you prefer to not use Patreon, there's a member portal@diggingupancientaliens.com support.

:

Both ways of contributing gives you the same content.

:

It's earlier episodes.

:

There's bonus content.

:

We're reading Chariots of the Gods currently and also of course ad free episodes.

:

And remember that archaeologicalpodcastnetwork.com has a lot of other great content that you can go and check out.

:

And they also celebrate 10 years of producing amazing archaeology podcast here in December.

:

I think there will be an event there taking place so keep an eye out for that.

:

You can also join their Discord server or sign up as a member and get some additional bonus there too.

:

And you can contact me through most social media sites.

:

And if you have comments, corrections, suggestions or just hankering to write that email in all caps you find my contact info on the website.

:

Sandra Martellor created intro music and the outro is by the band called Trauskruev who sings their song Folj.

:

Links to both of these artists can be found in the show notes.

:

Until next time, keep shoveling that side.

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