It’s safe to say that there’s no part of sports business that’s as dynamic as college sports. That’s the polite way of saying it, anyway. There’s a bunch of other expressions that can be applied, and often are.

But think about it: conference realignment, NIL, the transfer portal, the House v NCAA decision, private equity investments… And this has all been in the last 5 years!

Sitting in the eye of this particular hurricane is this episode’s guest, John Cunningham, the Athletics Director for the University of Cincinnati Bearcats. Since joining the Bearcats in December, 2019, John has quite literally seen it all. COVID. The move to the Big 12. Launching NIL programs. And that’s just scratching the surface.

In our conversation, we talk about John’s journey from being Nebraska Cornhusker fan as a kid to sitting in the big chair at the University of Cincinnati’s athletic department. We also dive into his recent decision to move multimedia rights back in-house, what’s behind the success of that decision, his view of the role of private equity in college sports, the importance of mentorship, and much more.

ABOUT THIS PODCAST

The Sports Business Conversations podcast is a production of ADC Partners, a sports marketing agency that specializes in creating, managing, and evaluating effective partnerships between brands and sports. All rights reserved.

YOUR HOST

Dave Almy brings over 30 years of sports marketing and sports business experience to his role as host of the "1-on-1: Sports Business Conversations" podcast. Dave is the co-Founder of ADC Partners.

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John, you grew up in Nebraska as a Cornhuskers fan. So I want you – let's begin by talking about that fandom and how the affinity for that program kind of led you to maybe where your future career would go. Was there a specific moment when you thought, oh, man, I need to be attached to this or associated with this or involved in this in some way? Was there something that happened along the line that made you think that?

I don't know if there was a specific moment, but you nailed it when you said, I mean, that was my world. I mean, in terms of being a part of the Nebraska Cornhusker, you know, fan base and everything that is around being a part of living in Lincoln, Nebraska, it was my world as a young person. The sea of red going to the game.

sea of red going to the game.

going to the game. Yeah, my heroes were all Cornhuskers, you know, and it was just. It was fun to be around. And people talk about it. It's not just a Lincoln thing or it's not just an alumni thing in Nebraska. It's a state thing. And, you know, farmers talk about the weather and they talk about Nebraska football. And it just permeates throughout, you know, your life. But I would go to volleyball games. I would go to baseball games. I would go to, you know, I remember going to track and swimming. So this was not just one sport.

this was not just one sport. You saw a little bit of it all.

Yeah. Yeah, and we had season basketball tickets for men's basketball, and we didn't have football season tickets. So I would go to a football game maybe once a year, but basketball was my thing, and that was kind of my sport. So just going to those games with my dad, I mean, just some of my fondest memories. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, those are memories for life. I didn't have one moment. I ended up going to law school back in Nebraska. And at some point during law school, I had this moment where I decided I didn't want to practice law.

You and about 90 % of the other people who go to law school. There's no question. So I always say I had my George Costanza moment where I called my then -fiancé and I said,

no question. So I always say I had my George Costanza moment where I called my then -fiancé and I said, hey, I don't want to be a lawyer. And she said, how are you going to pay for your loans? And I said, I don't know. I like sports. Maybe I could go into sports. But it really was part of my life.

Maybe I

It was kind of a natural fit that my love of college athletics and what it can do for a community.

a community.

Yeah, yeah. And I just felt what it could do. And I knew how important it could be and the passion behind it. And so I just always believed in it. I think that's what you're interesting,

I think that's what you're interesting, too, from the standpoint of Nebraska as well. It was such a central part of community, that program played there.

program played there. It really does just get embedded into who you are. Because it's a connecting thread to everybody in the community. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. You feel it in almost everything that goes on. I mean, Lincoln is a college town in a capital city. And that's kind of the two things it's got going. But,

And that's

you know, it just, yeah, you felt it. So, and when I was in high, I mean, they were obviously really good. I tell my kids all the time. They were the Alabama of. College football at the time, they don't believe me necessarily, but I convinced them that, you know. Dang kids, one day they'll learn.

them that, you know. Dang kids, one day they'll learn.

Yeah, yeah. But I think they won three national championships in my four years of high school. Yeah.

my four

And just had that incredible run. Yeah. Just a rallying cry for everybody in that state and a point of pride. And it still is. And they'll be back soon and be great again. And it's just, it's something special. And the volleyball thing, that piece is something special too, where it's not just about football. It really isn't. And so I saw what, you know, a community could get really behind any program, any sport, women's sports and really support it in a cool way.

is something

really support it in a cool way. Now, your whole career has been in and around college athletics. I mean, you started as in compliance at the University of Maryland and you had stops at TCU, Syracuse, Boise State, Minnesota before you took the big chair over in Cincinnati. So with all that experience. I'm wondering what you feel like are the things that you learned about being an AD that maybe you had some misconceptions about before you sat in the big chair. You'd been in the departments first time in the big chair. What was the like, I didn't realize it was going to be quite like this, despite all that experience that you had.

Boy, I give a lot of credit to Mark Coyle, who was the AD that I was with for eight years prior to this job, because I did feel like I understood what it was going to be. Now, when you sit in the chair, the feelings are just amplified. Some of the things you have to deal with, there's no escaping the decisions that you have to make, and you have to live with those decisions and those types of things. I think maybe it's the amplification of those feelings, but I knew what to expect.

I knew what

knew what to expect. And I'll always remember that because I was put in a lot of positions and around a lot of the same decisions that I make every day previous. And I was just around it and was able to kind of watch and observe and kind of develop my own way of doing it.

Can you talk a little bit about your relationship with Mark Coyle? And the role he's played in your career, because you two have had a lot of stops together. And my sense is he's been a bit of a mentor to you, maybe provide a little bit of guidance along the way. So can you talk about the importance of that relationship and the importance of mentoring in particular as you think about college athletics?

Everybody needs somebody in their life that elevates them and believes in them and pushes them. I'm still waiting for that.

still waiting for that.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully, hopefully that can happen. Yeah. Yeah.

that can happen. Yeah. Yeah.

But I, you know, for me, it was in Boise when I got there, I got to Boise State a few months before Mark came on board as the brand new athletic director and his first athletic director job. And, you know, I remember I remember a conversation where he asked me what I wanted to do. And I think it was one of the first times I said out loud, I want to be an athletic director at the FBS level. And his comment was, okay, I'm going to help you get there. And a lot of people say that, but they don't follow through. And he was just one of those people in my life that was intentional about helping me develop and giving me a little bit more,

they don't follow through. And he was just one

about helping me develop and giving me a little bit more, a little bit more, seeing what I could do a little bit more, and then just helping me get to this chair. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's really it. And then I've tried to now give back in the same way. to people and mentor those that, that we have on our staff. And, and, you know, I always take, I always say, if you, if you, you know, call me and say, could I talk 20 minutes about your work? I'm always going to say, yes, I'll find a time to do it. Cause I think that's really important too. You bring up an interesting point too,

bring up an interesting point too, though, because I think there's a lot of people out there who are willing to help, but the follow through part of it is sometimes challenging and people are busy and they get lost in their own worlds, both in work and family and personal lives and all those kinds of things. Do you think it's important for people to pursue mentors? Is it like a two -way street there, like the mentor willing to give? of themselves, but also the mentee being forthright about what they want from that mentor? Or, you know, how does that equation work in your mind?

I actually think it's better when it just happens more naturally. I think, you know,

I think,

sometimes you can try to push those relationships or try to really structure it. I don't think it has to be, there has to be a bond there. You know, there has to be a friendship of some kind. you know, a relationship of some kind. You got to find the right people.

You got to find the right people.

Yeah. And it's always about trust, right? It's about trust and belief and those types of things. And so I think you got to let it kind of develop more naturally.

Now you arrived at Cincinnati at a time laughing because, I mean, you got there and college sports as we knew it stopped being college sports as we knew it. There were a series of seismic changes to college athletics that you sort of had the front seat at. You led the move from the American to the Big 12. So conference realignment is something that's under your belt. You helped launch Impact, the Bearcats NIL organization. So you've been in the chair as NIL has become front and center to everything. universities are not typically known for loving change, big change, and you've certainly been around for a lot of it. So as you think about the way that you manage this dynamic period with your campus leadership, what are some of the skills that you bring to the table that you think have helped in that regard? Because I think every college administrator in the world is looking at college sports right now going like, oh my God, I don't really know. It's impossible to deal with all this change. How do you do it, John? How do you do it?

You know, I think you have to almost start with COVID. And, you know, that five,

six months after I took the job.

six months after I took the job. And so I think that almost, there's probably a story to be written about how that led to the massive changes that we had. I think everybody saw for a long time that things. Things were getting a little bit off tilt and were probably going to change at some time. Do you think it would have happened without COVID?

you think it would have happened without COVID? Do you think all the things that we're seeing in college sports right now, if we didn't have that seismic moment in its own right?

I don't know. I think it really, as I've thought about it, it probably allowed people to kind of rewrite it a little bit because you had to during COVID. We didn't sell a ticket in football or basketball for a whole year. You remember the cardboard cutouts of human beings. And I always was freaked out by that. I just thought it was the weirdest thing.

remember the cardboard

thought it was the weirdest thing. A little dystopian.

Yeah, very dystopian. But I think because of that craziness, it probably led to just rethinking the whole approach to college athletics. And then you had a series of court cases that just kind of built on top of each other that just kind of broke the dam open a little bit to say, okay, we've got to rethink this. But how do you do it? I've developed this. term yeah it's not my term but it's used for other things but just radically accept the situation as it is at the moment that it is and i think so no use shaking your fist at the sky no use no use it just it's wasted energy to to try to you know just think about the good old days or or how how we got to where we got we are where we are but this is the way we've always done it type stuff and that and that doesn't typically work

so no use shaking your fist at the sky no

use no use it just it's wasted energy to to try to you know just think about the good old days or or how how we got to where we got we are where we are but this is the way we've

this is the way we've always done it type stuff and

that and that doesn't typically work So I think we are where we are. We've got to try to make it as good as it can be. And it's going to be rocky. If you've taken something that's been one way for 120 years and then kind of flip it on top of its head and flip it around. And I just think it's going to be difficult and rocky and we've got to figure it out. It's too good to fail. It's too good. College athletics is too important. We talked about the impact it can have on our community.

too good.

And the product itself, all the stuff around it is frankly a mess right now. And I don't think I'm going too far to say that. No, I don't think you are.

I don't think you are.

When the TV goes on and you're sitting in the stands and the product on the field or the court is as good as it's ever been. And people love to watch it. And it means something. And people are still passionate about it. So that hasn't gone away or faded at all. Um, so now we got to figure out, we got to figure out a structure that works. We got to figure out a structure that works for, for, for schools with different levels of resources. And that's really tricky, but, um, that, you know, that's just where we are. So radically accept the moment that you're in pivot, you know, be willing to change, change your path and change it quickly and try something new. And if it doesn't work, pivot again, uh, burning a hole in your sneakers with all that pivoting.

burning a hole in your sneakers with all that pivoting.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. um that's right and and so that's what i tell my my staff is yes we're gonna we're gonna have to be we're gonna have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable yeah and we're gonna have to be able to to be flexible enough to to move and shake and and watch for changes because they're coming i think you also bring up a great point too like nobody has the answers at this point like just but forward movement there are going to be mistakes but you have to

what i

gonna have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable yeah and we're gonna have to be able to to be flexible enough to to move and shake and and watch for changes because they're coming i

think you also bring up a great point too like nobody has the answers at this point like just but forward movement there are going to be mistakes but you have to accept those mistakes. You have to try something. Being stationary is not a solution. So you have to move. Now, you might not move in the initially correct direction, but the ability to pivot and wear that hole in your sneakers and be flexible and be radically accepting of both the opportunities and the challenges that are presented in front of you kind of strikes at the core of what your job is right now, isn't it? I mean, this is... With an industry that's changing as quickly and dynamically as college athletics is, that forward momentum is kind of central to what you're doing right now, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's so many parallels. I think there's an AI parallel that you can draw. You can't go back. There's no going back. And so how do you try to figure this out and help with the solution where you can? Explain to people as much as you can how important this is for our country. I mean, I think that,

I think that,

you know, I go back and people have talked about the impact that college athletics has had on our amateur sports and our success in the Olympics. I think that connects with everybody. No matter what, that connects with everybody. And we are the envy of the world in terms of how we train our athletes and put them on that national world stage, that world stage. That's something to protect. You know, it's important to protect our women's sports. It's important to protect, you know, our young people who are going to receive some money and make sure that they take care of their money so that it launches them into their career rather than really causes them problems. So there's just a lot of things now, I think, that we've got to try to build around. The pivot's going to be important continuing to go forward because it'll keep changing.

Now, one of the key pivots you've made recently is surrounds MMR and multimedia rights. The vast majority of college programs outsource that, right? And they outsource it to one of a number of different organizations. But you recently opted not to renew with industry heavyweight Learfield and bring multimedia rights back in -house. What was the opportunity you saw and how did that decision come about? Because most of your peers are, you know, the multimedia rights companies write a pretty big check and it's guaranteed revenue, so became very comfortable. So you pivoted. Can you talk a little bit about the thought that went behind that moment, the decision to take those rights back in -house?

Sure. You know, we obviously went to market. We had an opportunity to do that. It was a big piece of our revenue. And so we wanted to shop it. We wanted to look around, see what was out there. Learfield had been a tremendous partner, not a good partner, a tremendous partner for Cincinnati for a long time. And so clearly we were going to work with them and talk to them a lot. We did throughout the process. I give them a lot of credit for working with us and presenting something that made a lot of sense. But at the end of the day, we just felt like. Because of the way the world was, we had to look for opportunities for separation. And, you know, I thought it was important to try to control our own destiny a little bit. And there seemed to be this window to bring this in -house, operate it ourselves. You know, it was about alignment as much as it was about finances. But certainly there was a margin that we were giving up by being with Learfield that I thought we could. eliminate that margin and then i think it was about really like i said about alignment and about in this new world of nil making sure that nil worked with your sponsorship work with your fundraising worked with your campus to really maximize what we could do so it always felt like when we were with learfield you know just like anything else it's it's allocation of resources and so we were placed into a certain level of allocation of resources but that was against our direct competition

I thought we could.

know just like anything else it's it's allocation of resources and so we were placed into a certain level of allocation of resources but

so we were placed

that was against our direct competition It never felt like we could separate ourselves from our competition. And this bringing it in -house was one opportunity where we could, again, kind of control our own destiny. And we could go as far as we could go without any limitations on us, perceived or real, and we could really attack it. So that's what we decided to do. It's been a lot of work. It's been a startup for us. In this market for us, it doesn't make sense for everybody. It doesn't. But for us in this market, in a pro market, that's kind of used to people controlling their own reap their own you know sponsorship dollars and sponsorship it made sense at this time to do it you bring up a really interesting point i want to tease it out a little bit right you said that it's not right for everybody so what were the qualities in your department that you saw that said you know what this is yeah okay we haven't done this a while we haven't owned this revenue stream for a while but i see this at the university of cincinnati that makes me believe that we're

bring up a really interesting point i want to tease it out a little bit right you said that it's not right for everybody so what were the qualities in your department that you saw that said you know what this is yeah okay we haven't done this a while we haven't owned this revenue stream for a while but i see this at the university of cincinnati that makes me believe that we're in the right place at the right time to reintegrate those rights inside the department? What were the things that you saw?

I've always felt like Cincinnati is, it's obviously in the Big 12, it's in a Power 5 conference, but we operate very succinctly. It's not such a large organization that you can't bob and weave and move together. And so I felt like if we found the right... GM to oversee it. And we brought in the right people that we could really integrate it into everything that we did. And so I felt like that was important. We didn't need to outsource it in the sense that we could really be one unit and operate together. And then I felt like we had the right legal support because you got to have a lot of legal support to do all the contracts. And I felt like that was in place. And so we needed to make sure that that was the case. There's that lawyer in you talking.

that lawyer in you talking.

that lawyer in you talking. Yeah. You always got to have that. Yeah. Try to get away from lawyers. Now all I do all day is get on calls with lawyers. Talk to lawyers.

You always got to have

But so I felt like the HR piece was there. I think we could hire and fire and do all those things that you need to do and bonus people appropriately. All of that was kind of in place where sometimes that's more difficult in other places, but it seemed to be something that we could do at Cincinnati.

other places,

Cincinnati. So that was one. And then the other thing is... You have local deals, you have national deals. And I didn't feel like our national number was that high. And so, again, we weren't being placed into some of these big national deals to where if we left, we were going to just lose all of those national accounts. We had to have a national sales strategy, which we've had. And it's kind of been an open to business strategy and have a lot of different people now acting as agents for us. went away from Learfield, we were going to lose that national presence. Right.

Right. The national deals tend to focus on those sort of blue chip, the Michigans and the Alabamas and things like that. Correct. It's just kind of how they're lumped together and bucketed and sold.

Correct. It's just kind of how they're lumped together and bucketed and sold. And so, again, we kind of understood that we were in that zone where we could focus in on all of the Fortune 500 companies and all of the local companies that we have here in this pro market that, again, is very used to sponsorship. and so we could we could just really focus on that so it helps that you're in a top 20 media market in the us too i mean some colleges and universities they're a bit far flung from like a major media center so i'm assuming that that access to large companies media spends and things like that probably helps as well doesn't it it does yeah yeah and i and we had so much potential that was just i felt like we had a lot of

on that so it helps that you're in a top 20 media market in the us too i mean some colleges and universities they're a bit far flung from like a major media center so i'm assuming that that access to large companies media spends and things like that probably helps as well doesn't it

does yeah yeah and i and we had so much potential that was just i felt like we had a lot of a lot of growth potential and it's kind of proven itself out in the first couple of years. So I, you know, in the first year or so, um, that's, that's been something that, that we focused on.

on. Well, let's talk about that first year, right? Because you've been operating under this in -house model now for, for about a year, um, and recently completed the first, almost completed the first full football season under it. So, you know, what have the early returns been like for you and the department? Have they met expectations? Have like, where have the successes been and where do you feel like needs to be built further?

Exceeded expectations financially. I mean, we're 2 .5x up and all those good things and have looked at, you know, we thought we set a pretty high bar and we've exceeded that already in terms of our budget. And so, and we see a lot of growth too. We see a lot of new clients, a large percentage of our dollars are coming from new groups and entities that we hadn't worked with in the past. So all of it's really... Financially gone really well. Obviously, it's a startup, so you're always going to have some hiccups here and there. But I give a lot of credit to Ryan Holmes, who took over. He was with the Bengals for 14 years and took over our multimedia rights operation and hired great people underneath him. It's always about people. He hired some great people and retained some people and all those good things. And then we had a consultant that we worked very closely with named Ray DeWeese. And Ray was just... you know, remarkable and kind of helping us and still helps us. And we, we call him all the time and he, and he's helped us kind of navigate. Former layer fielder himself.

He hired

layer fielder himself.

Right. Yeah. I mean, it's, and just somebody that knows the space so well. And so it's been, so all of that has gone better than expected, I think, and probably less bumps in the road than expected. But it's been a lot of work and we've learned a lot already. And so we're excited about what the future is. We didn't get fully staffed until May 1. So the sales cycle was impacted there. A little compressed.

A little compressed.

Yeah. So we feel like we can keep growing it. Yeah.

I mean, now that you're fully staffed with a season out ahead of you, it probably allows a bit more of a runway to really think about and be strategic about deals versus panicking and running around trying to get ready for a football season that's a couple months away.

I mean, now that you're fully staffed with

and running around trying to get ready for a football season that's a couple months away.

Correct. And a lot of the deals we did were kind of your renewal deals and similar to the same structure that we had because we just didn't have time. But now I think that now we can really get creative with our assets and do some of those things that we really have been talking about for a long time, combining donations and sponsorship and NIL and all of those types of things. So I'm really excited about where this goes because I don't think we have to follow the traditional models that were laid out previously in terms of just how you present your assets to the community.

No, it allows you to probably be much more collaborative in terms of how you go to market and those kinds of things. Now, I suspect there's going to be a couple of schools who hear you say two and a half X over expectations. And they're seeing other schools like the Clemsons and the Arizonas who have also repatriated their rights, taking them back in -house. And they're going, oh, you know, that sounds good to us. But. We're at the bottom of the mountain on this thing. How do we even get started? We haven't sold sponsorships in 20 years. So how did they get started?

did they get started? If they're considering a similar move with Cincinnati and try to get to the success that Cincinnati's had, what should their first steps be?

I think you have to have, I talked about Ray DeWeese. You have to have somebody that believes in this model.

have to have

in this model. and has thought a lot about bringing it in -house and what it all entails.

what it

And so whether that's a person or a group or whatever it is, you've got to have somebody that you can call all the time and just pick their brain and navigate through the difficulty of setting it up. And then I think you have to really decide if it makes sense in terms of what are you giving up, the security of it. Do you have the bandwidth? Do you have the time and the energy? We're pulled in so many different directions. That's the one thing. You've got to have not only the resources and all the ability to set up the model, but you also have to have the time and energy to really dive into it and build it out. Whether that's taking somebody on your staff and making this, hey, 75 % of your next year's work is going to be dedicated to trying to stand this thing up.

to trying to

I think those are the types of considerations you have to make. And then I, and again, I think you got to go back to is the, is the structure of your university. Do you have the legal structure to be able to do it? Do you have the HR structure to be able to do it? And does it, does it fit with your overall goals in terms of NIL and what you're trying to do?

Compensation is a big part of it too, particularly for salespeople who are out there doing deals and things like that. And you have to take all these kinds of things and make sure that they're going to fit into the overall picture.

sure that they're

That's right.

Yeah. I'm obviously talking quite a bit about MMR, but I think we have to, again, here's the word of the podcast is pivot a little bit because just like we talked about before we got started, you just got back from Las Vegas. And at the big conference every year, the University of Utah announced that it had entered into a relationship with Otro Capital. It's going to be at an estimated $500 million a year of private equity money entering into the University of Utah's athletic department, which is now going to basically spin off its revenue structures into a separate organization. So this discussion about private equity and college athletics has been going on for some time right now. Can you give a quick overview of what your impression is about private equity in college sports? Is this an opportunity that the Bearcats are going to take advantage of? I know the Big 12 has obviously been talking about it as a complete conference and things like that. Where do the Bearcats currently sit on the idea of private equity and some of your thoughts and opinions regarding the University of Utah deal?

Well, complicated situation, number one. There's another word that can be very underscored on that one.

There's another word that can be very underscored on that one.

Yeah. So, you know, number one, I think the Bearcats, like so many other schools, are exploring, are open to conversations about it, listening very carefully, thinking through it, modeling. So I think that that's where we are. I think a lot of ADs have done this. I've kind of used some of our donors that are in this space to pick their brain about it. Yeah, good counsel.

Yeah, good counsel.

Yeah, a little counsel there and just kind of walk through what this could look like. What is this world of private equity, donor equity? What could all of this mean? You know, continuing to do that, we've taken a lot of calls, we'll continue to take those calls and listen to people. And then I think it's a matter of whether, again, it's just all going to be fit for your institution and what you're looking to do. And, you know, if you have this influx of money and it, you know, probably goes a lot of times towards some sort of capital project. So then I think, you know, you've got to question whether or not you have a capital project on the horizon that it makes sense for. And then I think the other piece is just, you know, how do you structure it? The structure is going to be very, very complicated. Yeah.

And then do you have the flexibility to change again as this industry keeps changing?

And then do you have the flexibility to change again as this industry keeps changing? You know, you don't want to lock yourself into something that doesn't make sense in a year or two years when, you know, this whole thing changes again. So I think that there's a little bit of kind of keeping your powder dry and making sure that you understand where the landscape. going and then being able to adjust. Or you set something up that you have a lot of different ability to move and the word pivot just keeps coming up. But you got to be able to do that even within a new structure that brings in private equity. So all those things come into play.

Yeah. I don't know a lot about private equity, right? But the one thing I do know about private equity is they don't get involved in things that they're not looking to make a return of some sort or make an exit of some sort. And I guess where I wonder is the compatibility with college sports. Certainly, the revenue and the resources for college athletic departments right now is very attractive, right? Particularly where we are with NIL and broadcast rights and new expenses and facilities and all the things that go with that. But does that Venn diagram between college athletics and private equity overlap well enough? that they can both benefit from a relationship like that? And I don't know. I mean, that's a rhetorical question more than anything. But since I have you on the podcast, I thought I might as well throw it out there. I mean, what's your perception on like how those two can work? Is that a collaborative relationship or is it something to be a little bit more? I realize you're going in very carefully, but is it careful because you're like, I just don't know how this is going to work.

I think there's a little bit of that. I mean, to be honest, I mean, it's a, it's a TBD.

I mean, to be

a TBD. I mean, it's down the line as this thing kind of shakes out that, I guess that's my, my one hesitancy, not one, but, but, but certainly a hesitancy is just, do we really know where college athletics is going to be in three to five years? And then once we, once you do, then you can structure something around it. But at the same time, I mean, everybody's. Everybody is strapped for dollars and revenue is really, really important. And an influx of some money would obviously be attractive, especially if you thought you could then turn it into additional revenue. I mean, and do things like we did with, you know, bringing rights in house or something creative, like, you know, you know, rethinking about, you know, having concerts in your venues and just being a little bit more strategic with some of those things. It all makes sense if it can drive additional revenues. I mean, that's part of the question. And then again, another piece is just how expensive the money is. Like you said, you've got to have a return for people if you go down that road. And then sort of where your campus views athletics within the overall sphere of what they do. I mean, this is a multi -billion dollar operation. you know, at a university with a lot of moving parts. And so how do they view athletics and, and, and what kind of controls do you have to make sure that you're still tethered to the university?

Yeah. I mean, college sports, as we've been talking about, as we get ready to wrap up here, like we talked about, I mean, it's, it's evolving quickly and evolving is even the wrong word because evolving intimates time. This is, this is a revolution. Inside college sports, things are changing quickly. And the word professionalization gets thrown around a ton, right? College athletic departments need to professionalize, use pro sports as their model. With that in mind, and as we wrap up, I'm wondering how important it is or if it's important to protect the things that make college sports special when there's so much pressure to change the way college sports is delivered. I guess the concern is that, like, do you become just then a minor league to professional sports more specifically and lose the things that, like you talked about, when we go back to the idea of being in Lincoln, Nebraska, and just having it be part of that community that makes people rally around and take pride in and things like that. Does professionalization mean losing that specialness, or is it just a matter of figuring out how to make them coexist?

I think it's the latter. I think it's, I think it's how you make them coexist. And because the, like I said, you, you, you have to accept where the, where the money is and you have to accept that, that it's already, you know, we, we have a settlement and a cap and this money's being distributed by campuses to your student athletes for purposes of securing their name, image and likeness rights and all those things. So I think it's how it all fits together. you're not going backward. And clearly the value of college athletics as a live sporting event is, is doesn't seem to be going backward either. And those, those revenues are, are continuing to grow and hopefully they continue to grow going forward. But I think, you know, I think one of the things we have to figure out is, is how you, you know, when you think about a community that supports these teams is how you deal with the issue of free agency. You know, in order to have any connection to a team, to have free agency every year, every semester is something that we have to figure out. And that's, you know, whatever that, you know, that's working with the student athletes themselves and having them more involved.

whatever that,

student athletes themselves and having them more involved. And, you know, we just got to figure that out. I think that's a piece. We talk so much about the money, but we don't talk about the transfer. The transfer piece has to be something that we address. Because that's what I hear more from fans about the fact that they don't recognize the team year to year than I do about the money, if that makes any sense. So, you know, I don't know if I don't have a solution right now, but, you know,

So, you

know, we've got to figure out how we create a little bit of stickiness because it's not good for young people to transfer four times. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense with the model of being a college student and getting a degree from an institution. It doesn't make sense from the standpoint of having an alumni base. and a university to always go back to and utilize down the stretch. If you've been to four schools, where do you go? Where's your home, right? And I go back to Nebraska, and I'll end by going back to Nebraska. I remember some of those student athletes that went through Nebraska, and they always had a place back in Lincoln or Omaha that would open doors to them. from a business standpoint. How can we help?

can we help?

And no matter what they did, they could lease for 10 years. And if they came back to Lincoln or Omaha or somewhere else, they were a known commodity and it opened doors. And that's one of the great things about college athletics. And so if we allow free transfer unlimited and agents involved in that free agency, we're losing a little bit of that. So I don't know. I don't have the solution yet, but I think we worry too much about the money and not enough about the free agency piece.

John Cunningham. He is the athletic director for the university of Cincinnati. John, I appreciate the time before I let you go though. I'm going to put you in the lightning round. I got you a bunch of, Oh, okay. Well, that was confident. We got a bunch of questions. You don't know what's about to hit you. So should we just do this?

I don't have a choice now. No, you really don't.

No, you really don't. I mean, you could just end the call, but I'm not sure that your competitive streak would be able to allow you to do that. All right, here we go. John Cunningham in the lightning round. You once famously brought a round of drinks for Cincinnati fans after a big Crosstown Classic win against Xavier. Do you recall what the final bar tab was?

$250, I think, something like that.

Well, you got off easy, Cunningham. I know. That could have been a lot worse.

know. That could have been a

Yeah, yeah,

yeah. All right.

All right. That's our beer of choice, so that's how we did it.

All right, you spent some time in athletic departments in Minnesota and Syracuse. Were you just purposefully avoiding warm climates at that point?

My wife's from southern Louisiana, and so she's been through a lot going to those cold spots.

and so she's

I told her when we moved to Syracuse, I'd never moved anywhere colder than Syracuse. Then we ended up going to Minneapolis, which is cold. All right, so follow -up question.

All right, so follow -up question. What was the coldest moment, Minnesota or Syracuse?

Minnesota, traveling with men's basketball at Minnesota in February. On like a Tuesday night, you play Michigan State, you fly home, and you get off the plane in February at 3 a .m. in the morning, and you wait on the tarmac for your bags to come out of the plane. I can't even imagine. It's the worst experience of my life. That is bone chilling cold.

That is bone chilling cold.

Bone chilling. You finally get your bag. You go to your car, which is an absolute ice cube. Icebox. Then you got to scrape your car. Do you have to plug in the radiator at that point too?

you have to plug in the radiator at that point too? Yeah, a lot of cars don't get out of there.

a lot of cars don't get out of there. Hell yeah, they're stuck for sure.

yeah, they're stuck for sure. They're stuck.

You're tired and you're absolutely freezing cold. Those moments were. You know,

You know, you're coming home to an angry wife from southern Louisiana who's going, what have you done? That's right. That's right.

right. That's right.

All right. You have a law degree from Nebraska. How long before the law career, before beginning a law career, did you go, yeah, this just is not for me?

I was in my second year of law school. OK.

OK.

And I just decided I didn't I didn't know if I wanted to go work in a law firm every day. Yeah. Like everybody that walked through the door was was angry. So.

Yeah. Like everybody

I decided I didn't want to do it. And now I still witness some anger around these parts.

want to do it.

now I still witness some anger around these parts. Okay, fair enough. Totally avoid it.

Okay, fair enough. Totally avoid it. We probably need to discuss the Cincinnati penchant for putting chili on spaghetti. Is that an acquired taste?

I think it is. Yeah, I think it's an acquired taste. The thing I would say is the people in Cincinnati that grew up here, it's not like something where they think of it as just... sort of, sort of something that they don't do all the time. They, they, they legitimately eat it multiple times a week.

of something that they don't do all the time. They, they,

times a week. And so they, they, you know, it, it is, it is a staple. It is a staple to your diet. And, um, it's really good. I eat it. I eat it all the time. My kids love it. Um, so maybe I've, maybe I've jumped on board on, um, it's really good.

on board on, on the, has a little cinnamon to it. It's, it's a unique flavor of chili and I, it is really good chili.

All right. I noted to everybody when you make it to Cincinnati, make sure you get the, uh, the last one. You got the Liberty Bowl coming up. The Bearcats will be playing the midshipmen from Navy. I have two kids who went to the Naval Academy, so I kind of feel like we're ending this at a bit of odds with one another. Do you have a score prediction?

I don't do score predictions, but I'll tell you, we'll have a lot of respect for Navy, obviously. They had a great year, and those guys are such unique. individuals to do what they do and then to play college athletics on top of it. So tremendous amount of respect. And I know that our staff is working hard to try to figure out how to stop that run game and all those things because it is... And the 85 yards of passing.

And the 85 yards of passing.

Yeah, but I think they passed a little bit more this year. Pass a little bit more this year.

a little bit more this year.

It's a challenge to go against them in a bowl game for sure. But yeah, it'll be fun. Bowl games are supposed to be... about seeing some of your young guys play and get out there and, and, you know, enjoy it and, you know, send, send your seniors off the right way too. I mean, that's a big part of it. They get to put the helmet on the last time. It's a big deal. And it's a big deal. So that's, that's what our focus is going to be on going down to Memphis.

John Cunningham, athletic director for the university of Cincinnati. I really appreciate the time.

Absolutely. Good to, good to talk to you, David.