How do you hold on to hope when grief feels overwhelming—especially during the holidays?

In this honest and powerful episode of the Collide Podcast, we sit down with Doug and Laurie Bunnell to talk about walking through profound loss and choosing hope in the midst of deep grief. They vulnerably share about their experience with unimaginable loss and how God has met them in their pain, offering insights on grief, faith, resilience, and hope—particularly during the Christmas season. Whether you’re navigating loss, carrying quiet sorrow, or entering the holidays with a heavy heart, this episode will remind you that hope can still be found, even in the darkest moments.

Meet Doug and Laurie Bunnell

Doug Bunnell is a pastor at First Presbyterian Church of Bellingham, WA and Laurie Bunnell is a Preschool Director. Together, they are deeply committed to loving and serving people with compassion and authenticity. Their story is a powerful testimony to God’s faithfulness in suffering and the courage it takes to keep trusting Him through grief.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn

• What it looks like to walk honestly through grief without rushing healing
• How faith can be stretched—and strengthened—through devastating loss
• Why hope is still possible, even when circumstances don’t change
• How to navigate the holidays while carrying grief

How This Episode Will Encourage You

If you’ve ever faced loss that feels impossible to carry—especially during a season meant for joy—this episode will offer comfort, permission to grieve honestly, and hope that you are not alone. You’ll be reminded that God meets us in our sorrow and gently invites us to keep going, one faithful step at a time.

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Welcome to the Collide Podcast. I'm Willow Weston, the founder and director of Collide.

And today I invited someone on the pod who's inspired me, mentored me, discipled me, encouraged me. And his yes, was a crucial moment to my own calling. This man is unique in the way that he looks at life.

He's brave in the way he lives it and wise in the way he navigates it. He studied at Stanford. He walked through the devastation of cancer.

I've seen him firsthand be a bringer of unity for the local church, doing the hard work of reminding us all to be kingdom minded. He recently walked the Camino de Santiago. He survived the teenage years and came out wiser. His dog is bigger than your dog.

And he's a husband to an amazing wife, dad to two amazing kids, and pastor and champion of many. Please welcome Doug Bonnell.

Wow. Thank you, Willow. Can I have that and send that to my wife?

I'll give this and my mom and your mom. I think your mom and your wife already know these things to be true.

Thank you. That was very kind.

Oh, well, Doug, I want to talk to you about the word champion. You champion people and you come alongside them and cheer them on. And you've done that for me and so many others. Why is that?

Did someone champion you?

Absolutely. And I love the word. It's a word that I have loved using. It's a word that I learned in a business book of all places, Spider and the Starfish.

It's a very interesting book, but it said that every kind of endeavor needs a champion. But I think all of us, all people need champions. And I was blessed with huge number of champions growing up. And.

And I had a ton of a huge blessing of parents that were champions, of coaches that were champions, of youth, pastors that were champions, of other pastors that were champions. So I stand on the shoulders of all those people and I love seeing people get invested in and that's one of my joys.

I've always kind of connected with Barnabas. The story of Barnabas in the Bible I love, because Barnabas champions Paul and it's Barnabas championship of Paul. I think that gives us who Paul is.

I don't think we would have had Paul if Barnabas hadn't been the one to encourage him and come out and stand alongside him. Sadly, they go on to have a very difficult disagreement later on. But the disagreement is about Barnabas's desire to champion John Mark. So I feel.

I feel like it's such a gift that I Get to do that. And it's one of my joys.

Can you think back to a time in your life where maybe you didn't know you needed it, or maybe you did know, but someone came alongside and championed you, and it was a turning point for your own ministry and calling.

It's a great. It's a great question. So do you. I'm gonna, first off, tell the story about.

About Mr. Rogers, who wasn't one of my champions, but I really wish he had been. He was one of my. One of my mythical champions. But I don't know if, you know, there's. There's a moment. He used to do this, but it was an award show.

It was like a Hollywood award show. Did you ever see this? It was fantastic. And. And everyone. It's all about narcissism.

It's all about our culture and people getting awards, like, how great they are. And Mr. Rogers got a lifetime achievement award for the neighborhood for his show. And he stood up there and he said, you know what?

I am here because someone championed me. And I bet all of you are here because someone championed you. And I'm going to spend the next. I've got a minute to speak.

I'm going to spend the next 45 seconds allowing you to think about who it was that championed you. And then they just showed the audience, and people were in tears because we all have people who have championed us. And so I have.

I mean, there's a huge number, but my. I heard. I learned about Jesus in middle school and fell in love with Jesus in middle school.

But I was a part of a youth group that was devoted to one campus, and I was the only kid who came from another campus. And I never felt welcomed. I never felt included. I never. There was never a place for me because I didn't go to that campus, but I kept going.

But the senior year, that youth pastor said, hey, I want to. I want to spend time with you. And so I would cut class every Friday.

And you got to understand, I was one of those students that did not cut class regularly. I was, like, performance driven, you know?

But I would cut class and go get a donut, and I'd buy two donuts, and then I would meet him and we would just talk. And we did that for five more years after I graduated from college. He was in my wedding. I was in his wedding. We still talk once a month.

I am so thankful for this man, the Reverend Scooter B. Benson. But he was a man who just. He came alongside me and wanted to get to know me and wanted to.

Wanted to be my friend and wanted to be someone who walked alongside me. And I was incredibly blessed. And so that's one of the things we talk about in our church, that we are sharing a living faith across generations.

And we keep. Keep saying that adults need to be those champions. We have found that the kids who stay involved in church have five champions. They have five. They.

They graduate with five faithful adults in their life who are investing in their life. That's. But that's because I was so blessed to have those people.

Right. Scooter B. Benson. Scooter B. Benson.

I love that little pastor down in California.

And I also.

Maybe I'll send this to him.

Yeah, send it to him. Hey, listen to this.

He goes. He goes by Scott now. He's. He's grown up.

Less formal. Right. All right, Scott. So I love the invitation that you share that Mr. Rogers had in that moment, because to take the time to.

To think about who are the people that have championed us and be able to say, go back to them and say thank you.

Yes.

For the way that you impacted my life. And I love the story about Reverend Benson coming alongside you, because to me, I've seen you do that in so many people's lives, including my own.

How do you think we can get better at champion each other?

I think part of it is the intentionality. I think we just decide that we are going to be about people and not about tasks.

We're going to be about people and we're going to be about investing in people. And I don't. I don't think investing in people. I don't think you need to wave a magic wand. I think we all have the ability to listen.

I think it's about listening. I think it's about being present. I think it's about walking alongside and just being a fan.

And sometimes being a fan means that we have to learn about the things. Just like with kids, you know, when we have our kids, sometimes they're interested in things. My daughter did gymnastics. You know about.

Oh, yes, I do.

I knew more about kips. To this day. Don't. I'm not that interested in gymnastics, but I learned a lot about gymnastics so that I could live in her world and I could learn.

When she was having trouble with the giant, I knew what it meant that she was struggling with her giant. When I knew about all these different words that were. That I had to learn, I had to grow. I had no knowledge of what they were, and I was unhelpful.

There was. All I could do was sit and listen. But I think.

I think we have to be ready to enter into people's worlds and find out what do they love and how do we encourage them and what they love. And I think it's. Part of it is just. I was pursued by people, and I think there's an element of pursuing that we all need.

We love to know that someone's like, I really want to get to know you. I really want to. I really want to connect. I want to learn more. That's an incredible thing to say. It's an incredible thing to hear.

Being known and being pursued. Those are good words for us to hear from you. I also think there was something else you did in your championing of me and my calling.

And that was you gave me your yes. And I remember coming to you, and we were having coffee, and I came to you just sort of this flippant idea. It was just a little idea.

It wasn't in existence. I didn't know what would become of it. And I thought I'd call it collide. And you didn't ask me a million questions.

You didn't ask me to get out a calculator and budget things. You weren't asking me to be dumb, but you weren't asking for all the 10 ways it could potentially flop. You just said, yes, do that.

Try that experiment. And that's what we did. We tried an experiment.

And that experiment turned into something entirely different with a way bigger vision than I could have ever imagined years later. But it was a moment where you championing me looked like you saying, yes, try that. Do that. Use your gifts. Chase after your passion.

If God's given you a vision, go for it. Why aren't we handing out yeses to each other more often?

That's a good. I don't know if I can even answer that. It's a good question. I think it's.

You know, I feel like I've been given the gift of encouragement, and I love to use that. And there's a joy. And I feel like I get to be the cheerleader, and I love being the cheerleader.

I think I would have really enjoyed cheerleading, except that I don't like. I don't like the repetition of the chance. But I think I would have enjoyed that chance to just go, you can do this. Go and do this. And I. I love that.

I love it when people do that with me. And I think. I think no's are important. I. I've been very blessed by the no's in my life. But I think we all need those people that are yes, for you.

And what does this look like? And I, I actually think the encouragement piece is something we don't do well.

One of the things we do in our church staff is we stop every once in a while and say, have you caught someone doing something right? Because we're usually thinking about how do we catch someone doing something wrong? But have you caught someone doing something right?

And I, I like to have that in our brain that as we're going around, we're always looking for how do we catch someone doing something.

Something right within the church, which is, you know, I'm not talking about the building, I'm talking about the body of those who are called out by Jesus. We need to do that. That's how we learn who we're called to be. It's other people.

And the encouragement needs to be not just, I think, you know, I like that. But it's, you did this. I experience God at work in that you need to do that more often. I think we. How else are we going to learn our gifts?

Back in the 80s, when I was, when I became a Christian, you would learn your gifts by taking a test by yourself.

Oh, I remember that.

I still think that's the saddest thing. The 90s, we were still doing it. I don't know if we still do it anymore, but it's the saddest thing that you would sit by yourself and take a test.

And we had to have those tests because we didn't have that experience of we've got to have that small community of people that are pointing out, do you know what your gift is? I don't think we know our gifts. I don't think we can figure out our gifts. Well, I think we need a community to say, that was awesome.

Collide is that community. I love seeing that in Collide.

I love seeing the way you guys call out people and allow them chances to do things they might never do and call them out and say, that was really good. That was wonderful. You need to do that more often.

I love that too. I mean, it's the confirmation of community to really know what you're good at.

But I think back to that conversation we had years ago, and I think it's pretty amazing to think about that.

We could have had coffee and you could have been that negative Nelly naysayer that told me all the reasons why this experiment I was thinking of trying might not work. And that could have inhibited me and I understand that there is a time for no, for sure, I understand what you're saying.

But it was literally a conversation where your yes gave me the courage to step out and try something that was scary and risky, and I could have fallen flat on my face, but I knew I had someone in my corner. And I feel like there's so many missed opportunities because we're not standing in someone's corner and saying, yes, try that. I'm with you.

Let's see what happens. You won't. If you fall, you won't fall alone.

You will not fall alone. And that's. And I think that might be it, because it's risky. It's risky to stand in someone's corner. But I.

The people in my life that have done that, I'm so thankful for. And they. And I realized people took risks on me. It's. You know, I feel like when people asked me to preach in their churches early on, it was a risk.

I'm not sure how well it did, but I think it was a risk. And I. And I think. And so part of that is there is a relationship and there's a trust.

It was so easy to say yes to you because I knew you and I knew who you were and I knew your love for Jesus.

And I knew, and I knew that you were not entering into this because of wanting to get your own ego stroked, that you had a passion and it was so easy to see the spirits call on that. But it was great. I will also confess I love to say yes. I don't really like saying no.

So the years later when you said, do you want to be on the board? I thought, I don't want the boards have to say no. I don't want to be a part of having to be that no.

Luckily, I don't think we've had to say too many no's.

Yeah, we're big dreamers, but we've also seen a lot of vision become reality. So it's pretty exciting.

It's been joyful.

So you mentioned that you love to be a cheerleader.

And one of the main things I was hoping to talk to you about today because you have been a champion and a cheerleader for me, but also so many other people and especially for women in ministry. And you've been a pastor for years. How many years have you been a pastor?

I was just thinking about that. 23 years. I've been an ordained pastor. I've been serving the church, though, for 30.

Oh, my gosh.

Serving in the church for 30 years.

You're almost like a midlife.

Oh my gosh.

I feel very man pastor.

I have no hair, my beard is gray. I am, I'm very much a midlife. I'm the man now. It's embarrassing.

Oh my gosh. For those of you listening now, you have a good vision of this guy. No hair in his back, hurts. No. But especially spirit is so young and vital.

So you've been a pastor for years and I, I feel like it's rare, unfortunately, for male pastors to often be cheerleaders of women being used by God.

And I, I just kind of want to start by talking about this topic and I want to know what it is that you think has shaped you in becoming a man that is all about women being used by God in ministry.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I actually think for me it's that I just love seeing people use their gifts for the kingdom. That's the joy.

And I don't think I ever set out to be in the corner for women and I still don't think I'm in the corner for women. I feel like I'm in the corner for people who have their gifts, using them to serve the body. That brings me joy.

And it brings me joy because I think I see people find joy. I see people find their. I think there's an incredible joy in getting to use your gifts.

So I think that's what I was first excited about and I grew up and I, I will be honest, I started in a church where my first, my first pastoral boss was a woman. I had never, I had never met an environment where it wasn't that way. Women were championed in the, in the church that I was a part of.

It just seemed natural. So it was very odd when my church, when my community burst out and I brought in all these other people who said that's not right.

And it was very confusing. It was a. That was the start of a long journey. But I just love seeing God use people.

And I find in the scriptures that there's one list of spiritual gifts. There's not two lists of spiritual gifts. We don't have a list of spiritual gifts that men have and a list of spiritual gifts that women have.

We just have Paul giving us this. And I would think it's a non exhaustive list of spiritual gifts. And I get really excited about seeing people use their gifts to serve the kingdom.

And I think I get really frustrated when there are systems set up that don't allow specific people to use their gifts.

That makes me sad you know, it's funny that you should say that because I sometimes feel like I have to pinch myself and go, are we seriously in the century that we're in and we're still having these conversations. But when I think a lot about, there seems to be almost like a legalism around the ways that women can be used.

I was thinking about it and I was thinking that it doesn't seem like there's a lot of. Like women are told, you can work with children, but you can't work with adults.

Or you can be a singer or a pianist, but you can't lead worship with guitar. Or you can lead a Bible study, but you can't preach.

Or you could be a director, but not call the pastor, even though you're shepherding and truly pastoring the same amount of people.

And so what is that legalism around these specific roles that some people say almost like you're saying like there's two different lists, like men can do this and women can do this.

Well, and I think that's, you know, there we're starting to get into the doctrinal differences that our churches have. And I've got brothers and sisters who are part of church traditions and part of different churches that believe very differently than I do.

And, and I think they're struggling to serve Jesus and live out the Bible in the best way that they possibly can.

And when I come and we would come, and we would all come, and there are certainly these passages in scripture that are confusing passages that say women should stay silent. Interestingly, that's the same book where Paul says, and when they speak, they should speak with their heads covered.

And you want to say, Paul, how do they speak with their heads covered if they're supposed to stay silent?

It's a little confusing for me, but I think, you know, it's very clear to me that within, you know, when I look at scriptures, I see Jesus act in a way with women that was cross cultural, that was countercultural to the, to the environment that he was in. He was. Women followed him. Women were almost his disciples. Women supported the ministry. There were women.

Luke tells us in Luke 8:1 3 that there were women who traveled alongside with Jesus and supported the ministry.

So I think, you know, my brothers and sisters on the side that are, I think we're all trying to live out the Bible the best way they can, and we all interpret these passages in different ways. And I think when you're trying to do that, it becomes very difficult.

And I think these are folks looking at passages and Trying to say, how do I live them out? And I don't. You know, these are brothers and sisters. This is something that we disagree with.

And I love the chance to talk about it when people are curious. But I'm not interested in fighting with people or quarreling with people. I'm interested in celebrating that.

But all, all churches have their own doctrine on this. And I think they're. They're doing their very best to live out the Bible.

And I try, I do my best not to judge them and try to say we see this thing differently.

Right.

And I think there's a. There's a great opportunity to talk about that. When I look at the Bible, I see women being used at all sorts of leadership areas.

I see women being used in sorts of places. We find Phoebe, who is a deacon. We find Junia, who is an elder. We find Priscilla, we find Lydia.

We find these incredible women that were used in scripture. And I love to celebrate that. Women that do some. There's actually some thought that it was a woman that wrote the book of Hebrews.

Have I shared with you that weird theory? I don't like the reasoning behind it, but the theory is interesting.

One of the reasons is at the very end of Hebrews, the author says, look at what a short note I've written. Well, the letter of Hebrews is one of the longest letters in the Bible.

So the theory was, well, it would be only a woman who would say that, which I don't. I don't think that was a good argument.

Yeah, that's not sexist at all.

But it was an interesting idea to say, say that what if this book, that we don't know who wrote it, what if it was written by Priscilla? That's. I think that I find that extremely encouraging. So I think in the midst of that, I think there sometimes is that place of legalism.

And I think it's hard, but I just try to remember it's people that are trying to live out what's the very best way that they can conserve Scripture. Now, I would say here's where I think it comes down to. This is what I. This is what I think.

We do find this idea of headship in the Bible, there's no question. And we find it actually in Genesis 3. In Genesis 3, the consequence to the fall is that a woman will.

Her desire will be for her husband and he will lord over her. He will have authority over her. So there's no question that this, this reality of men kind of having authority over women comes in the Bible.

But that's, you know, we would call that post lapsarian. I just threw in a big theological.

Word that's a big word. Post lapsarian.

After the fall.

It sounds like something to do with a C section. Yeah, well. He just dug.

Just means it comes after the fall, so it's a consequence. Now the question is, we hear Paul say that in the kingdom in Jesus there is no male, there is no female, there is no Jew, there is no Greek.

We find that the kingdom is kind of back to the way things were in the garden, that it's different. So, but which do we live?

Do we live out the consequences of the fall or do we live out this new kingdom that has been introduced but has not come to fulfillment? I think that's for me and our tradition is that we're going to live out the kingdom. But I don't judge and I have great respect.

There are a lot of traditions out there that say, no, we're still in the fall and we're going to live, we're going to live the rules of the fall.

Right.

And I think we can disagree on that.

And I think there can be some fascinating theological discussions as we, as we seek and listen to each other and say what, what does it mean to be really, to be really faithful to scripture in this?

So, yeah, so one of my favorite stories, and I'd kind of like to hear you break it down and maybe talk about sort of the radical engagement of Jesus colliding with a woman and then using her to change her village. But it's the story of the woman at the well and, and I want to hear what you have to say about it.

But he ends up showing up to sort of this get around girl and goes out of his way to meet her, which really a Jewish person and a Samaritan woman wouldn't have connected anyways, and a male and a female, but then he ends up not only changing her life, but she leaves, goes and brings her whole village and they're changed. And so Jesus actually has this life changing collision and then a get around girl changes who knows how many people's lives.

And it's that amazing moment that they all, they say, you know, we're here because of what you told us, but now we've encountered Jesus, we've ourselves collided with Jesus and we're here because of who he is. There's that great moment at the end, but they're really clear.

We came because of what you told us, but now we've met Jesus face to face and we are we're convinced about who he is. Yeah, it's. It is the most successful preaching campaign probably in all of history, barring maybe Jonah at Nineveh.

It's one of the most stunning revivals that we read about in Scripture.

And it's a woman.

And it's a woman. And she meets him at a. At a well, which is a little odd because in the.

In the Genesis, we find the early church for the early forefathers, they would meet their wives at wells. It's kind of an interesting. And, you know, this is. She's not the wife of Jesus, but there's something going on that they meet at a watering hole.

Apparently, that was where you. That was like the local pickup place. They would meet their wives there.

And so Jesus meets her at this well and they have this encounter that is so beautiful and so stunning. And she leaves her pot there. I just love that.

Right. She leaves her water jar.

She leaves her water jar there at the well and rushes home.

Right. She's no longer thirsty for what she came for because she found it in Jesus.

Right? Yeah. Well, it's. You know, I think if we would sit down and say, what does an evangelist look like?

If we would talk about, you know, sometimes I've done this with. With communities. We're like, let's. Let's think. You know, you start telling me, what. What are the characteristics of an evangelist? We would.

We would probably have all of our characteristics, but then we would look at who are the actual evangelists we see in the Bible, and we'd find the woman at the well, and then we'd find Mary Magdalene. These are the people that went out and told people Jesus is the real deal, that he is alive, that he is resurrected. And they were not believed.

The men didn't believe them, the disciples didn't believe them. The disciples. And luckily a few of them felt like they had to go check it out, but they didn't believe the women.

It's very intriguing, but they were the ones that Jesus called to be the first ones to give message. The idea that an evangelist would only be male is a surprising idea that I wouldn't find in scripture.

We find a lot of evangelists in Scripture, and that's what this woman is. She's absolutely. But she's a woman with the past. She's a woman with. A shadow side. And Jesus uses her in such a wonderful way.

Sadly, we don't know her name. I have no question that we will someday. I think someday in heaven. We'll be like, yeah, you're the one. I love your story. It's my favorite.

You're fantastic.

That's true. Know her name well. Talk about taking risks on people.

I mean, I think about how you invited me to preach at a Pentecost service with I think, eight or nine churches or something, all gathering together. And I remember this experience where I'd heard that there was a man upset in town at a local church who was taking part in this. And he was kind of.

I don't know, kind of trying to rally some of his people to get upset about the idea that there was woman preacher that. That year. And I was already, you know, feeling the pressure of preaching at such a large event.

And then at the Mount Baker Theater. Right.

Which if you're from Bellingham, you know what that is. And if you're not, it's this beautiful, beautiful theater and fills a lot of people. And I was already feeling that pressure.

And then when I found out that there was this man that was trying to rally people up to get upset about a woman preaching, I remember just feeling like, oh, man. Like, do I run? Do I just bag? I can't get a sex change in a week. I mean, what do I do? But there is.

This conversation about, can women be used by God to impact other people's lives? Isn't an issue that people have to wrestle with if it doesn't directly affect them.

But if you're a woman who's standing there and you have to show up in three days and preach a sermon to, you know, hundreds or thousands, whatever it was people. It's a scary moment to have people who aren't standing in your corner.

And you were standing in my corner, and you did take a risk on me, and I was able to go no matter what.

Like, I know that there's people who are, for me, who believe in me and who have, in community, confirmed that this is a gifting of mine, and so I'm gonna believe upon God to do something despite any haters.

Yeah.

If.

If it was a risk, it was one of the smallest risks I've ever taken.

Oh, you're too nice. One of the smallest risks.

It was. It was awesome. But, yeah, I mean, and I think. And. And we knew that. We talked when. When we went to this. We knew that this is. This is always a little.

There's a. There's a scary element to this. And. And anytime a woman gets up and speaks, there's going to be. And.

And I realize that that's nothing that I'm going to have to Face. That's a privilege. It's a privilege that I have that I don't have people doubting my ability to preach because of that.

They doubt my ability to preach for a lot of other reasons, but not because of that. And I think that's one of the challenges. And I pray for our women.

The reality is, for the women that don't have gifts of speaking or leadership, it's really not hard to stay in a church where women are not preaching or leader because you're. You're not the one who's. You're not being impacted by that. But when you've got a gift and you feel called to use.

Can be very difficult to be in a situation where you're not able to use what you believe God has deeply gifted you with, to not use it for this, for the service of the kingdom. That can be a hard moment.

Yeah, it sounds like you've done tons of study around the theology around this and have kind of come to a place of sort of kneeling down where you land on it. I'm wondering too, how much did your mom and your wife and your daughter influence how you see God using women in the world?

That's a good question. I was. You know, I was raised by. Raised by wonderful parents. I have a wonderful wife.

We were probably in the same place when we got, when we first met and got married. We were both in situations where women had been leaders in our community. So that was, that was not a challenge at all.

I mean, ironically, my mom and I have a very close relationship. She was not. She was going to. She was a part of a community that would not have been so down. Supportive of women and leadership. So we had a.

We had a few, a few of our lockdown arguments, debates, discussions around this. I think it was.

I mean, for me, it was a long process of sitting with scripture and because the truth is, man, I. I don't ever want to do anything that's against God's word. That's a huge deal. I have taken a vow to, to live, to not just seek to understand God's word, but I've taken a vow to stand under God's word.

That's a big deal. And I had to. I had to sit for myself with these passages that, that I actually don't think they're saying what we think they're saying. There's.

There's actually a book I love.

It's a guy who, he was very much in the camp of women should not be leaders, and he was a student at Oxford and he heard someone give a speech about women being allowed into leadership. And he was like, that is not right. And so he set out to write a book to refute what this guy said.

And he looked at the 10 clear passages in the Bible that he sees that prohibit women from leadership. And he discovered through a 20 year journey that every single one of those passages was saying the opposite of what he thought it was.

That those passages were not what he thought they were. That they were actually completely different. And he wrote a totally different book.

He wrote a book not prohibiting women in ministry, but a book celebrating the role of women in ministry. It's a great read. So, yeah, but for me, I mean, certainly the women in my life were a part of it. And I had some very long conversations.

The understanding of scripture was around, you know, the people that I did listen to were the older women, older than my mom. Roberta Hestonis was one of those people. And she went on. She was. She was a mom at a church in Seattle, and Bob Munger was the pastor.

And he asked her to teach. And she said, I'm not supposed to do that. I'm a woman. And Bob Munger sat down with her and said, you have a gift.

The Holy Spirit has given you a gift. If you were to not use that gift, that would be a sin. And so she began to speak, and she began to teach, and then she began to preach.

She went on to be one of the only female leaders of a university. She went on to be a Presbyterian pastor. She's an amazing woman. But it was hearing her talk about women, that was very much. That was a huge deal.

Wow. And because a man sat her down and challenged her that to not use her giftings, not her get.

Not user. User gifting would be a sin.

Right. Well, and in some sense, I mean, I. I feel that often like I'm responsible. Some people feel like the pressure.

Women are pressured in the church to not use their gifts. They're being told they shouldn't step up to the plate and use certain giftings if they think they have them.

And I feel like I'm gonna have to answer if I stop using them because someone tells me I shouldn't. You know, so it. That's pretty cool that that guy sat her down and told her.

It was wonderful. But to do that and to do that with grace and to realize that not everyone is going to agree with us.

I mean, this is one of those, you know, we find this in the Bible. It's a disputable matter. We're Going to dispute it.

Right.

It's our job to be respectful, to be non judgmental, to be, to not hate.

Paul says.

And I think that's like, that's a key thing. This is not a war, this is not a fight. This is a disagreement. And we have a disagreement. And these are folks who are going to disagree.

But I would say that the thing that drives us, I mean, I would say scripture drives us always. I think our tradition drives us, but I think our own personal experience drives us.

And I, I have been gifted to sit under the leadership of some amazing women. My first job, I said, was under the leadership of a woman. I've heard some incredible woman preachers. You were one of the first Pentecost preachers.

We had just last year. We had Jill Briscoe. And man, that woman could preach.

And it, you know, for someone to listen to her sermon and to say that women should not be preachers would be shocking because she gave one of the most intense, amazing sermons that we've ever had in our Pentecost service. So, you know, so we, I am, so. I'm thankful. So in my own personal experience, I've just experienced the leadership of women in, in some powerful ways.

Now there are some women who should.

Not be preaching and there are some.

Men who should not be preaching. And those are the ones that don't have the gift, but they've got a different gift. And how do we help them into the gift?

I was once in my college, in my college fellowship group, I was once standing up and someone needed to help out with worship. So I brought my guitar and I helped out with worship.

And there was a very kind female leader who sat down with me and said, we need you in a different place.

You have gifts, but really, yeah, your.

Gift is not staying on tune.

How did you receive that?

Well, I got to do the announcements and it became, it was so much more fun. But leading worship, I mean, I can play guitar and I can sometimes sing, but I don't have the gift. And I would agree that.

And when I see people who do have the gift, it's such a joy. It's just, it's such a joy.

And I can see in what they're doing and I can, you know, and I will step up if, if it, if there's no one else, I will step up until we can find someone who's gifted. But it was not, it was not where I was. And so sometimes a nice, a nice loving. No, but let's have you serve over here. Was great.

Well, that can shift your trajectory and you all of a sudden realize that you're amazing at something you never would have tried and I never. Because you're trying to box yourself into something that you had an idea in mind that you should.

This was the 80s. Everyone had a guitar. Everyone. Everyone learned to play the Indigo Girl songs. That's what this one. It was. This is what. If you loved Jesus.

You would only get into heaven by Jesus and being able to play guitar.

Oh my God.

It was a different world.

Wow.

It was a Kumbaya world.

Wow.

Sometimes.

And so someone was honest with you and then that moved you into starting to use your voice in a different way. And now that's what you do.

That is true.

That's awesome. That's really cool. I have been thinking a lot about opportunity and I find there's not a lot of male preachers mentoring future female ones.

And in fact, I got a call from a man who works for a church and he was asking me, this was just in the last couple weeks, who the kind of best up and coming female preachers are in our area. And I had a hard time coming up with more than maybe one or two names. And he asked me why that is. And I've been thinking about this a lot.

And I think women aren't being mentored be preachers, worship leaders, or pastors. We're not invited to the same table or given the same titles. And we're not invested into with the same belief.

And it's one thing, I think, to get behind women and say you believe that they can use by God, but it's another to believe it so much so that you're a church and a community that puts your time and your energy and your resources behind it. So how can we get better at this?

That's great. That is great. And I don't, I think just what you're saying.

I think giving opportunities, I think pointing, I think, I think giving, you know, the way you discover your gifts are by doing stuff, by giving the opportunities. You know, I think, you know, I'm. I try not to be proud, but.

But our church community after 135 years just called the first woman to be an installed pastor. It was just this year that our church called a woman to be that installed Pastor. After 135 years. It had never happened and it was thrilling.

And I think those, the young girls in our church are growing up with Pastor Becca and they get to see Pastor Becca up front. And I actually, I don't like being called Pastor Doug.

But I have tried to introduce Pastor Becca as Pastor Becca every single time to make sure that people are hearing. We have. You know, because young girls might not grow up getting to see. I mean, there's something to that system of you.

You become what you think you can by watching it. Have you ever been to watch basketball at Lyndon Christian? You ever gone. This is about 20 miles north of Bellingham. This is a.

They have turned out state champion basketball teams for the last 50 years. And I wondered, how do they do this? So if you go there, There are about 300 people at every basketball game.

And you see where the middle schoolers all sit together. You see where the kids all sit together.

But all of these kids are growing up watching all of these high school athletes, and they're all dying for the time, for the day when they will be the ones up there.

Right?

So I think you're right. I think I love celebrating. I actually.

Whenever I am not around to preach, it is one of my goals to get a female voice, because I want people to hear female voices. I want them because 1. A female voice is totally different than mine. They're going to say things.

I mean, I. I think Pastor Becca can say the same thing that I was trying to say, and people will hear it totally different from her. So I think we need more models, and I agree. I think we need more mentoring. I think we need more champions, and I think we need more opportunities.

I love. I think Collide does that you are giving opportunities for women to speak.

You're giving opportunities for women to stand up there and tell their stories.

Just this last one, you had a young woman who's just started in ministry, and you gave her a chance to share her story and to speak to a group of 900 women. And I heard. I wasn't. I wasn't there, but I heard she did a great job.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I heard she got a lot of great feedback. That's awesome.

Yeah. Well. And I think back all the way back to when I was a new Christian. I was a youth leader in the church that I was going to. I.

The youth pastor came to me and said, we believe you're being called into vocational ministry. Because I was waking up with all these sort of, like, words that were coming out of my mouth, and I didn't know what to do with them.

I actually write about this in our yes, you Bible study. That we put out this last year, But I. I didn't know what to do with all these messages that were coming out.

And I went to the pastor and asked him, I feel like I'm going crazy. What is happening? I need to tell young girls these messages. And he said, we believe we're being called into vocational ministry.

And I was like, what, what are you. What? No, not me. I don't fit the bill.

And long story short, I ended up applying to be an intern and went through kind of the rigamarole of like, you know, going through the interview process till you get to the senior pastor who said, you know, will you be willing to try preaching? And I said, no way.

I mean, I'd rather, rather like go visit women in the nursing home, hospital visits, play youth group games like clean overheads back when worship was led with overhead projectors. But I was like, I cannot preach. I cannot get up and have anything great to say. And they turned me down for the internship.

And I had a moment where I realized everything I had read about Jesus was that he uses absolute, like, nitwit flub up, you know, people who need second, third, fourth chances, people who don't even know what their giftings are, people who lop off guys ears off when they're angry. I mean, he just uses the weirdest of people. And I felt like God said, never say no to what I can do through you. And I went back and I said, I.

If I'm going to take this Jesus guy seriously, like, I have to take him at his word. And he says, like, he can use anyone to do big things. So I guess I'd be willing to try preaching.

And, And I went back and they, they gave me the internship. And speaking of opportunities and, and giving people opportunities, that's all it was, was.

It was so much for me in figuring out what I was good at it because I had no idea was them throwing me in and I had to sink or swim basically. Like they, they scheduled me. Imagine this. I've never taken a preaching class or a speech class. I have no idea what I'm doing.

And they're like, you're up for three times, three weeks in a row to the high school youth group of like, kids. And I was like, what? But I had to do it. They were handing me an opportunity and I had to take it and see what happens.

And that's how I realized I have a voice and God can use it.

But I never would have signed myself up for that if it wasn't people believing in me and saying, not only do we believe in you, but we're here for you and we're gonna give you an opportunity. As hard as it is and see what happens.

Sometimes you learn how to do it by splashing around in the shallow end, but sometimes you learn how to do it by just getting thrown in the deep end. And you'll learn how to preach by preaching. It's the only way. Classes do not help you to preach.

Classes will help you hone your gift, but classes don't teach you to preach. Right. Learn by preaching. You learn how to preach by doing it.

Yeah.

You learn by doing it with. And hopefully there was someone walking with you and giving you feedback.

Yeah. Well. And even outside of preaching, I just think that so many.

People haven't yet discovered what they're good at because in a sense, they haven't jumped off the deep end and had to figure it out. And I had people that pushed me off the deep end, and I had to figure it out. I was either gonna suck or I was gonna figure out how to do it.

Yep.

Right.

And you learn by doing it. And you can't. You can't teach that. It's gotta be a gift. But the other reality is, I mean, you and I have it easy. This is a privilege you and I have.

We live in a community that acknowledges that preaching is a gift.

There's a ton of those other gifts that we also need to celebrate that those are gifts, and those are gifts that are just as important and just as needed. And sometimes we've got a danger of celebrating the gifts that are the upfront. And everyone thinks like, oh, I want to have that gift.

You and I can tell stories to make sure that there's. Let us not romanticize this.

Trust me, I'd way rather there are.

Some very hard parts about this. But the other reality is there's a bunch of other gifts. And I told you before, I don't think Paul's list is exhaustive. I think Paul's list is.

You know, I think there's actually a gift of graphic design. And I think Collide has been connecting with people who have the gift of graphic design.

Now, that's not a gift listed in scripture, but there is no question, when I see the things that you guys are doing, this is someone who's gifted you or I could probably sit down and do something like that. It would take us hours, and it wouldn't. Well, I'll speak for myself. I can appreciate and just go, wow. And you're giving them chances to do that.

And I think, you know, the reality of the church is the church is not meant to be a football game where there's 12 people using their gifts and hundreds of people cheering on the sideline. The church is supposed to be a place where everyone is using their gifts. And it's so fun. For those of you who go to a collide, you're.

You're only going to see one part of it.

But when you get there ahead of time and you see how many people are using their gifts, in every Collide that takes place, you guys have hundreds of people using their gifts. Hundreds of them that are doing stuff in the background, and they love it. They're signing up to do this.

It is amazing to me to think about gifts that we don't call gifts, because you're sort of bringing that up. And I think I have a girlfriend who also plays a very significant role in our counseling program. And it's almost like a superpower.

She has the ability to draw out the deep in someone that is, she can help someone connect with themselves and their inner self and what's going on like nobody's business, right? And then there's another woman on the Clyde team who. She's just a powerhouse of muscle and willingness and what can I do to help?

And, I mean, like, she bought a moving van and she's loading stuff and putting IKEA stuff together and hanging stuff and building stuff. And, you know, there's just. There's so many gifts, and we all need each other to be able to pull off amazing things.

We do connects with the body, and we all have a different.

And so it's, you know, what you guys are doing at Kaleida and what the church is trying to do and what we're all trying to do and what communities, Healthy community does is it shows people. Here's your part. Here's your part of the body. And the truth is, an elbow does not make a good eye.

And for an elbow to sit around and to be jealous, oh, I don't get to do what an eye does. That would be a huge bummer. But an elbow is a great elbow, and to be able to celebrate. And part of what you and I need to do is to say these gifts.

Because when people figure out their gifts and they spend as much of their time doing that, that is the recipe to joy. I think that's the recipe to meaning to figure out what it is. What's the unique thing that you bring? It's what's so much fun about watching collide.

You have been able to say, here's the unique. No one else could do collide. No one else. Only Willow could do collide.

And There are various times that you are doing Collide that you spend time doing things that are not collide. And those are frustrating times for you. And you end up doing things you're like, I'm not good at this. I don't like it.

I need some other people who've got these gifts.

And you have found people who have those gifts. You have got a staff that's got a bunch of different gifts. And some of them don't ever want to stand up in front and talk. Right, right.

They would not enjoy that at all.

Yeah, no, that's completely true. I do think and agree with you that when people discover what their gifts are, it's when they find true joy.

But I also sometimes I think about all the pain in the world.

Like I think about hunger and victims of sex trafficking and abused children and water needs in third world countries and cancer and a cure and on and on. And sometimes I wonder if God's answer to all those things isn't us.

Oh, I have no question that it is.

But it's.

But it's like if God's ultimate plan and story would be for all his kids to tap into their full potential using their gifts to impact lives and make this world a better place. But there's people sitting there and they're untapped and they're not being used and they don't even know what they're good at.

And no one's in their corner, no one's championing them and they feel held back and by their own self belief. We're not fully realizing our potential to be able to eradicate all this pain and all this need in the world. But we have all the resources we need.

Wouldn't it be great if there was like a community that would come alongside people and help them figure out their gifts and send them out to use those gifts?

Okay. Are you talking about the church?

Yeah, it does sound like that.

There are churches doing an amazing job at this. But we still have.

If you look at it, I mean, it's like I don't know what the percentage would be, but what would look at the percentage of untapped resources in human beings lives.

I agree. And, and yeah, I mean I'm in full agreement. So. Do you know, you know the Beekner quote? Right. I'm gonna. I don't wanna. It gets sold all the time.

But tell us, tell us, tell us the Beechner quote.

Frederick Buechner is a Presbyterian pastor out in Vermont. Favorites. And he says that your calling is where your greatest joy Meets the world's greatest need. Isn't that beautiful?

Your calling is where your greatest joy meets the world's greatest need. And when you find that, you're set for life, and I think that it's a very powerful. So I think you're right.

We may find that we have a great joy, but if it's not meeting one of the world's greatest needs, it wouldn't be that interesting. Would Collide be fun if it wasn't meeting a huge need in Whatcom County? Would you be excited about it?

No.

No. You know, this.

It's not worth all the work, but it's.

But what makes Collide your calling is it's meeting a huge need. But what makes it also your calling is it's a great joy. Right. It's hard, but it's a great joy. And it's what God has called you to do. Right.

And that's why it's. It's so easy for us to stand along and say, this is great.

And I mean, my question to you is, continue going to be, how do we allow you to do what you uniquely do? There's no one who can be Willow. There's other people who can fold envelopes.

There's other people who can do a bunch of other things, but no one can be Willow. So how do we create your job so that you're being Willow?

Well, thanks for doing those things. Thanks for talking to me about my job right here on the podcast.

But that's also a good challenge for everyone listening is how can you be uniquely you and figure out what it is you're called to do in this world to meet a need? And that's when you will find truth.

That's when there is an incredible joy. Yeah, an incredible joy.

That's a really fun way to end, Doug. And I'm so glad that you gotta hang out and have this conversation.

And I'm very grateful for the way that you're championing people in the world and for the way that you've championed my life and my calling. It's been a gift.

It is only a joy. And I am very grateful, Willow, for the way that you are making something such an impact.

I love that you are using your gifts in such a way that Whatcom county will never be the same. May it be that way for years and years to come.

Thanks, Doug. Thank you.

Amen.

So, Doug, if people want to hear you preach, they can show up to First Presbyterian Church in Bellingham, Washington, any old time and post every week's website if people want to check it out.

www.FPCBellingham.com okay, cool.

And if and if you guys want to keep up with us at Collide, we're on Instagram at We Collide and on Facebook as Collide. And you can also visit our website at wecollide.net to find out more about our upcoming events or resources.

Or check out our store that benefits our ministry. And there's also great resources to check out.

I hope that in the next week that you deeply through think about what it is it what is it that you are uniquely made to do on this place called Earth to impact the world in a way that not only brings you joy, but brings joy to the rest of the world. Thank you for hanging out with us. We'll catch you next week.