Live form the Tardigrade's Bookshelf, the gang dives into bock beers and the story of Scapegoat, McFleshman's take on a bock.

Bonus content that didn't make the main feed, Q&A with the audience and business owner woes as we interview the owner's of the venue.

Visit the Tardigrade's Bookshelf in Appleton, WI: https://www.tardigradesbookshelf.com/

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--

CHAPTERS

00:00 Welcome to Respecting the Beer LIVE

01:04 Venue Vibes

02:10 Bock Beer History

04:44 Goats and Doppelbock

06:59 Water and Yeast

08:56 Augustiner Yeast Love

12:36 Yeast Drift and Repitching

18:28 Malt Builds the Bock

23:09 Sweetness vs Maltiness

26:21 Beer Poker Tradition

27:42 Decoction and Melanoidins

29:04 Scapegoat Name Story

32:45 Hops for Balance

34:36 Ingredient Sourcing Small Brewery

35:10 Why Hop Farms Matter

35:40 Scapegoat Vibe Pairings

37:02 Maibock Versus Bock

38:34 Minty Hops And Timing

40:15 Golden Bock Market Talk

41:09 Tardigrades Tap List

42:21 Tardigrade's Bookshelf Plugs

43:03 Support us on Patreon!

--

CREDITS

Hosts:

Bobby Fleshman - https://www.mcfleshmans.com/

Allison Fleshman -https://www.instagram.com/mcfleshmans/

Joel Hermansen

Gary Ardnt - https://everything-everywhere.com/everything-everywhere-daily-podcast/

Music by Sarah Lynn Huss - https://www.facebook.com/kevin.huss.52/

Recorded & Produced by David Kalsow - https://davidkalsow.com/

Brought to you by McFleshman's Brewing Co

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another exciting episode of "Respecting the Beer." I am Decker, and, uh, Gary would've been here, but he heard tardigrades, and he was like, "Oh, where can those-- When can those

survive?

I must travel to a far distant planet." And so he is off on, uh, Europa

right now.

Europa?

Europa.

do- doing

a podcast

doing

a podcast on-

Europa.

He traveled far, far, far away to depths unheard of.

Um, but we are here at Tardigrades Bookshelf,

and, uh, we're talking about some beers.

But, uh, let's just gauge the vibe of, uh, how we're doing today.

We've

got the,

the good doctors here.

What's up, guys?

Hi.

Hi.

doing well.

Doing well.

I hear we're gonna be talking

about

Bock beers

today.

I'm very excited.

I haven't had

the Bock in a long time, and it is delicious served here at

Tarre de Grey.

They have so

many of our beers on tap, and we are thankful for them.

Hooray.

that hallway, I see eight of our handles.

There's

eight of our

products here

today.

So good.

Yeah.

I've never been in here before.

I know.

This w- so-

You

need to.

……I do, yeah, and this is on me.

Sorry about that.

I will come back.

This is amazing.

Um, this

was like the old VFW back

VFW day,

I think I

saw a punk rock show here one time, and I do believe I was escorted politely

out of

said

punk rock show.

So this is-- might be the first time that I get to leave on my own

accord

Being

escorted politely out of a punk rock show seems like-

very disjointed.

disjoint.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

Yeah.

Well, we're sitting in the

Velvet Fox portion, which I believe is rented out for weddings

and events and such.

Um, and they do

their science society, which I gave a

talk at, um, a few weeks ago.

And so

it's a really fun w-welcome space.

It's a, it's a public house, but does coffee and beer and other things, I believe, so.

And they also sell books.

It's a wonderful thing

So, um, we're here-- Yeah, the great vibe,

great seats.

I love the, uh, the thrifted couches and other soft chairs.

I'm a, i'm a fan of soft seating.

What can I say?

It goes, it's, it's in line with your punk rockness.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I'm a rough and tumble guy.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I'm a hardcore dude, what can I say?

Um, but let's talk about bock beer.

That is why we're here.

And, uh, McFleshman's, you guys make the Scapegoat bock, which, uh, before we get into w- well,

yeah, let's talk about what is a Bock beer.

And, uh, Allison, you've got something you would like to

say

I do.

I know.

Um, so years ago, I wrote a blog for the brewery because I was told I needed to do so, so I did weekly, um, which took way too much time.

Um, but I dove deep into the history of the bock beers, and so I was just gonna read, um, kinda something, uh,

that I wrote way back in the day.

Um, so follow me back to 1500s.

We are going to learn about the history of the bock.

So we're in 1500s Bavaria.

So the ultimate separation of church and state happened.

Turns out all the monasteries were up to now, they were the ones that brewed the beer.

The dukes found out that they were brewing beer and were like, "Oh, wait, you're charging for beer. We could make money on beer." So the dukes realized that beer equaled profit, so thus began the government-controlled breweries and the Reinheitsgebot was born.

The Reinheitsgebot being, of course, the German beer purity law.

Funny thing is that if you fire all the monks who formerly brewed the beer and you didn't think to keep any of them on staff to teach you how to do it, you're rather screwed.

So the state-led breweries ended up making so many mistakes and having so many bad beers that were lethal, um, and there's even a record that oxen bile was used in one of them.

It was such a bad idea.

In place of hops, Is that the

I'm not sure.

I mean, you know, i, I, s-s- I use oxen bile for so many different substitutes.

Applesauce, olive oil, oxen bile.

So, um, anyway, so that's the reason that the Reinheitsgebot was essent- like, was essential.

It saved lives.

Um, okay, back to the bock, though.

So the bock beer.

First of

all, there's many kinds of bocks, which we'll get to that in a second.

Um, so some brewers in einbeck, uh, were able to brew delicious beer on the government-owned equipment, and the reputation spread.

So this is in Einbeck.

Now we're in the 1600s.

Munich got wind that einbeck beer was actually pretty good, so they convinced Elias pichler to join them, who was a brewer.

So he moved to Munich.

Problem was, in einbeck, the beer was brewed as an ale, but munich, the wild yeast was a lager yeast.

And so when he tried to brew the einbeck beer there, it became something entirely different.

You say wild yeast?

Yes.

It won't be wild.

be

wild.

I'm sorry.

Domesticated.

Well, domesticated, y- but the the yeast that they

used.

Yeah,

the yeast that they use.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yep.

They were the ones living the plush life indoors.

Right.

Anyway, so they lagered it.

Okay, so in Einbeck, the beer was named einpockisch, which became einpock with Munich's dialect.

Over time, that transferred or transformed into einbock, which is really funny because bock in that dialect means goat.

And so ever since, the goat has been affiliated in the official symbol of all Bock beers.

In fact, Ayinger's Celebrator even comes with a little white plastic goat

And

every brewery worth their salt has one of those little plastic goats hanging on their mash tun for good luck.

Yes.

We are one of them

and so, and a lot of bocks will have the, um, suffix, uh, ator, so there's Celebrator,

Salvator.

Um, what other ators

are there?

Much all of them except us.

We make the,

the weirdest names

Yeah.

We, our names are ridiculous.

Um, anyway, so, uh, the, um, the idea is

that, that it was

a, an ale

brewed with lager

what ator mean- Oh … meant?

Yeah.

Hang

means?

Oh, I didn't.

Yeah.

Hang on.

Uh,

so

most commercial doppelbocks, uh, will be named with the suffix ator as a homage to Salvator.

In Latin,

Salvator means savior,

and the beer is definitely a savior with its high caloric content, exactly what the monks needed

to survive Lent

sea- or survive

the Lent season,

as food was off-limits.

But beer, well,

that was okay

So rather than, rather than dreading that season, they looked forward to

Oh man, They had to.

Yeah.

We must abstain and

drink Bach

No.

But

oh no.

the calor- that's the really high doppelbock beer that was used for surviving Lent

and fasting at the same time.

not, not remembering

what

what was really interesting in that is, um, something that kind of ties in with what we were talking about earlier is with your scapegoat, the names.

And there's so many names and how it evolved from, um, pock with a P, ……right, all the way to a B. So,

um, I, I

would assume it was probably the monks after only drinking Bock

beer

probably were, like,

just slurring

exploring Whatever.

Fine

I

just-- Imagine the-- It's like the f- it's like 1600 and you're like, "Easter's 40 days

away.

Here we go.

Let's just drink for 40 days." Uh, I'm sure

they were-

pretty great.

Um,

but let's talk about, uh,

what

is

a Bock in, uh, the, the chemical, the, the ingredient sense.

Well,

right off the bat, bocks, w-we think of

them as having high alcohol, and they do, and they always sort of have, but they had less alcohol back then because the, the ingredients didn't ferment as well.

They didn't make as much alcohol out, out of their given ingredients.

So in that sense, maybe it did make for sustenance better than a 9% doppelbock would today.

Um, I always glaze over the four main ingredients when we talk about these.

We're like, "Let's isolate a beer and let's talk about it," and then I forget to even bring up the four main pieces of any given beer.

So right off the bat, the, the water profile of Munich is important.

The, the, the profile there is just perfect for making dark lagers, and they have to do a little work to make their helles, which was in response to the pilsner across the border in, in the Czech Republic.

But they're really good at making dark lagers there.

So we'll put a little bit of, um… W-where carbonates are,

are pretty good.

Our, our calcium level is what we look at, and we want to make them a really malt forward.

Our water

should drink soft.

It should accentuate that malt.

But-

malt-forward beer, water make malt taste

better.

Calcium

chloride, yeah,

water will make malt taste better.

Calcium chloride, yeah, ……gives you that instead of sulfate, and if you wanted to make something hoppy, sulfate would be the way to go.

But yeah, so we'll try to do our best to address that, and then, uh, get the carbonate level where we want it to be.

Not as high as you might find in London, where you get, you know, these, these darker ales.

But then we'll use an Augustiner yeast.

We like their

yeast a

lot.

lot.

yeast.

and all these lager yeasts are really close kin.

You know, we talk about ale yeast, and they're-- That's a big, big, big, big, big, big family.

There's been, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of years for, for ale yeast to break off.

But lagers have only been around for a few hundred years, so it's this pretty small, tight-knit family in the lager world.

We choose

to use the same yeast

that, uh, Augustiner uses

I was about to say, can I just

take a moment and talk about Augustiner

yeast?

Sure,

Yeah.

Yes,

please

yes,

because I have so much to say other than like, you know,

like if there's this a-- Like, so

Bobby's my spouse.

We've been almost married 20

years, been together for like 24.

I don't even know.

Um,

but you know that

the, the, like the, the, the celebrity list

of like,

you know,

know

what I'm talking about maybe?

There we

hall

That, that list that

past list.

right?

Yeah, yeah

The past list

So the, there's no list that

exists for Bobby, but there's a list of yeasts

yeasts that like-

I, I worked

in

a German-

you for a, a good strain of

I would leave you for a, a good cigar.

He would leave me for

like this yeast

like this yeast.

a good stout.

Yeah.

Believe me- I- … with this yeast ………I worked in a German brewery in Oklahoma

never heard him talk

and flirt with this idea of Augustiner yeast

more

some nice

Oh,

it's weird.

I

know, but it's true because I--

you were working at, um, Royal

Bavaria.

It's a wonderful restaurant in the middle of Oklahoma, and they were using Augustiner yeast, and he's like,

I just have to get some." He was obsessed

obsessed

it was almost like, "You know, I'm here.

Hey, husband." And he's like, "That's cool.

I just-- I found some Augustiner yeast I can get.

Oh my God, can you believe this?" You know it-

You know in "Airplane!" And y- you know, I always quote "Airplane!" There's the, the boy sitting next to the, the nun, and the nun's reading "Boy's Life," and he,

he's reading "Nun's Life. I feel like I'm reading "Yeast

Life" or

something.

Yeah,

You really are.

I just- I feel like I am, I am, sec- I come second to Augustiner

yeast, and I just have to… This is

my therapy session.

I

just have to say

that out loud.

No,

he-

big divergence on this, uh, this

Anyway, if it isn't clear we like Augustiner yeast,

You guys are his therapy session.

We're just here.

Did You say you like

Why do you like it?

Why do you, like it,

you, it, I, I, like I said, there's, there's not a huge difference, difference between all the lager strains, but once you brew with them thousands

of times, you

start to really know them.

And the, once you know their, their tiny little quirks, you'd never wanna deviate.

So, so I, I got into, uh, the Augustiner strain having worked in a German brewery in Oklahoma, and

I'll never forget the smells,

the, and the product

that was produced there, and it just, for me,

it, that's what lager is, forever will be.

I'm looking at some other strains these days, actually, to be honest, but-

I know,

I know, I know.

I'm just wanting to play.

Just artistically

wanna stretch out a little.

Don't let the beer

hear.

You can come up here.

But, but now I know this

yeast so

well.

Like, I'll, I won't even have to have,

uh, instruments on a fermentation.

I'll,

I'll know what temperature we are.

I'll know what ABV we're at.

I'll know the pH.

I'll know the generations.

I'll know where these yeast are, and I'll know how they're gonna act on any given day.

I know to the extent that

if the back door is open, uh, for 30

minutes and it changes

the air temperature on the end row of our fermenters, that that one on the far left is gonna respond one, one, uh, degree differently than all of the o- Well, it'll respond in

its fermentation

rate by about a percent different than the

rest of those

beers.

Oh, it's crazy.

These yeast are so

cantankerous.

Uh, so some of it's

familiarity, some of it's just

the, the magic of what I remember this yeast to be.

I I haven't visited Au- visited Augustiner.

I've never been to Southern-- I've never been to Bavaria.

I've only been to Cologne.

Uh, I've never been to Southern Germany, but I really want to

go see some

of these

great breweries, including Augustiner

I think that's a, the,

the, a

road tr- well, I guess air

trip, but

that's like the beer trip

that uh, that the, the

brewery needs to sponsor.

Oh,

to like

set out, find a

travel

have Scotland on the list, and I know we have Ireland on the list as well

for a pub tour

a really--

I

don't know if this is even a

something that matters,

but you're talking about using all these generations of yeast and, um, you know, when generation after generation multiplies,

evolution happens

Yeah.

They multiply four times in,

in the tank, so

Is there,

is there a difference

in the original strain,

like a

noticeable

difference …than there is with what you're

using

So we,

we have to be a little careful when we talk about, you know, mutation

here because sometimes we're, what

we're doing

is we're teasing

out what are called phenotypes.

They're not, they're not

genotypes.

They're not mutating.

The,

the

yeast are-- You're

teasing out the ones that perform well in your own

conditions.

So the ones that don't do well with

your given geometries and

temperatures and all

these other things,

they just don't get to survive.

They don't get to outcompete the ones that do.

So

it's just the strongest of the yeast,

but it- Yeah … it …just maintains

teasing out

the ones of the group that

ha- that express a certain way, so we're

not really

mutating.

Now, that said,

once you start to

mute or to repitch a yeast, you know, 10, 100, 1,000, or 10,000

10,000

times as they've done in Germany, you actually do mutate.

This is just nature

at work.

So you, you

s-

this is how lager yeast in, in part came

to be.

You know, uh,

it was a, not a, it was a hybrid between an ale and a,

and a wine strain

that, that gave you the

lager strain, and it

was purely accidental.

And,

uh, we, we, they imposed the, the cooler temperatures and all the other things that led to the, the

lager strain.

So there, there are two kinds of things here.

There's genotype and

there's

phenotype.

Genotype is where you start to

actually, um, genetically modify over time.

So w- in, in our brewery, we're not really

experiencing

that.

That

said, it

does happen and, but it's, when it's one out of, you know, 100 quadrillion

yeast, it's who's to say if that yeast is gonna carry

on downstream.

But it definitely happens, and there are people that are naturally, uh, breeding, uh,

yeast

in the lab today, and there are others that are

genetically CRISPRing,

if anyone knows that word.

They're actually genetically modifying

the yeast and …creating

what they want on demand.

So there's two ways of, there's conventional and, and modern novel

We just buy

it directly.

We need to call you after that.

Uh, but, but

we

are- And That wasn't true- It's happening though.

It's definitely… Yeah,

no Harvesting-

yeah ………from your tanks- Yeah … you

know,

which I'm guessing

you're

right?

Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

You must be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, like,

there's

gotta be some mutation.

There's gonna be changes in there- Yeah … Even if it is

like an acci- Have you ever, in all your years of

brewing from Oklahoma to now, have you ever had that happen where you're like, "We've been using this

ale

Yoja

all these beers," and then all

of a sudden

you've done everything the same- So- ………comes out a different beer

… Ambient Mic: magic

Comes out in different beers …my magic

number on the lager strains is about a dozen generations.

So

as I said, that's

a dozen tanks times four every fermentation, so

50 times, it's a 50

generation, if you wanna think of it in

the yeast family

tree.

Uh,

that's 50

generations

of y- Seriously?

It's, yeah,

50 generations of yeast, and then they branch sideways too, 'cause we're fermenting in multiple

tanks

in these generations.

So there's

lots

and lots of ch-

cousins

Although you have shared

how when

you-- so when we buy yeast, so it comes

in a

box with a bag in it

Very big,

uh-

big, uh- Very big box with a

container.

Do you just

hanging out.

Anyway, but

about a 50-pound

plastic container, yeah

never happy with

the first

pass

one.

You want it to

be, like, two or three

Because it doesn't know our y- it doesn't know our brewery.

So, so all of the

yeasts

really are dating

these yeasts then.

You like it's

really,

there- We are dating these yeasts, right?

Yeah.

to know it.

It's just a-

did you sleep, uh,

well in the, the bed

the

first time or

Like, the couch?

like

you know, like you're like "Ah, where am I?

I

don't know.

This is uncomfortable."

two uh, fermentations, they've Now they know our brewery.

I know.

Uh,

that's, that's exactly right.

But I'll tell you that my rule of thumb is when it-- once it hits a dozen, to your point, Decker,

we start to see drift.

We see

what we, we call genetic drift, whether I mean mutation or not.

We see g-

genetic drift, and we're like, "Okay. All right, all right. Let's get that back on the rails," and so we'll call up our yeast.

So we work with BSI in Denver, uh,

Brewing Science Institute.

They're world famous for propagating yeast.

And, and the thing about when you're propagating yeast, it's, you're not fermenting

yeast.

So

when, when you're, when you're propagating yeast, what you're doing is you're giving it

oxygen,

and you're giving it food con- per- continuously as it multiplies.

And actually, so yeast

would much rather, uh, like, multiply itself, and it would much rather breathe o- breathe oxygen than not breathe oxygen.

Um, so it, so it,

we all?

do.

Right.

So it actually

ca-

we do a lot of

cancer research with yeast cells,

as a matter of fact.

don't, but

scientists

science does.

Science does.

Yeah.

McFleshman's

Brewing Company and

cancer

Cancer

Yeah.

Um,

anyway, so, uh,

we, uh, we tend to

rely on those guys to do that, that job.

We don't, they don't ferment.

They do what's called propagation.

They give it the food,

give it the nutrients, give it the oxygen, give it the heat, give

it the,

uh, the mechanical agitation.

So when you give it, uh, a certain amount of wort, you know, sugar or malt sugar, it will convert

as much of that

as they can dial in

into yeast cells and not into

alcohol.

And so w- we then take that and we, we

put it into a fermentation, an anaerobic environment known

as, you know,

fermentation,

and they go into a different, uh, uh, pathway by which to make energy.

They don't prefer it, but that's what we impose on them.

And, and so you can see where these yeasts that are coming in are

coming from a very different world, and we throw them into what we

do to them, and it takes a couple generations to

get them up and running.

To

figure out that they need to eat the sugar and not

just

They need to actually do go through glycolysis.

They don't-- They need to go through fermentation.

Yeah.

So

you're a physiologist.

and poop the

alcohol

Yeah, there you go.

That's it.

Yeah.

Well, the, it's,

that's the, one of the basis

of a, a Bock beer is the yeast and

the water.

Uh,

the malt then,

what is

it that we're

like-- Because

we, we've talked about your, uh, the Italian

pilsner, and we've

talked about

the, uh, the Czech

pilsner, and these beers are vastly

different looking, tasting, uh, even feeling.

So, uh,

tell us what goes

in in the

malt

back-

This is, of all the

beers

to

talk about malt, Bock is the one.

Uh, you know, people talk

to me

about, "What's your favorite beer?" Blah, blah, blah, and I'm, I'm always saying

Tall Mast.

These days

I'm drinking a lot of our West Coast Tornado.

Um, but, uh, maybe my favorite beer is our Doppelbock.

Uh, you just can't drink 9% Doppelbock

every

to get through

Yeah.

Uh,

I

might

be a good quick, uh, like the types of

Bocks there are.

Yeah.

Type…

the- Yeah ……regular

bock, um, which is very

malty.

It's basically if you were to take bread and make

it liquid, ……that's-- it's just liquid

bread.

It tastes like

the

making bread in

your kitchen smells.

Um, but then

that's a bock typically brewed in or released in the

fall,

and

it's brewed over the summer.

Um,

and then

you have the, uh, Maibock, which is supposed to be brewed over the winter and

it comes out in May.

Um, for us, it's the Lily Goat is our Maibock, um, and she's coming out soon.

And

No,

unfortunately

mind.

Next

year … Next year.

to my chagrin

This is, this is, FOMO.

this is what we're doing

Um, but then the doppelbock is

the double bock, which

is really a very

highly concentrated-

We're actually focusing on brewing

that right now so we get it out by fall.

We're actually focusing on brewing that right now- Mm … so get it out in the fall.

Much more, um, uh,

concentrated, uh, malt

and alcohol.

And then there's the

eisbock.

doesn't

Which doesn't

Nope,

' cause we don't brew that

we don't brew that 'cause that's illegal

Yep,

Yep.

So we're not talking about

it.

It's just

a happy

accident

…when you accidentally

leave

y- the, back door

If you did.

Mm-hmm.

There's that.

Anyway,

so- uh, Munich, as I said, Munich malts, uh, Munich was, was wanting to

get in

on the game.

They, they played this game a couple times, uh, trying to capitalize on what other regions are doing in the beer world.

Yeah, so, but they're, but they have

some fantastic

malts, uh, made near, uh, Munich.

Uh, they're called Munich malts to people in the

United States, and you can kiln them to higher

temperatures like you could coffee, and you can tease out different bread characters, and

you can mix those

with their base Pilsner malt,

and you can, you can tease out the ratio, the, the amplitude,

if you want to use a music

analogy.

Yeah, you

grab a frequency

and then you

increase the amplitude.

Um, that's how I think of it, even though I don't write music.

I, I think of it that way, and so I'll, I'll bring in

a certain,

uh, like a dark Munich malt and a, and a light Munich malt, and that's gonna give me like that toast right before it becomes toast, and that toast right after it becomes toast.

You know that smell

I was wondering if you

smell?

Yeah.

The Maillard reaction

happening.

Maillard.

Maillard.

Uh,

you don't want to overdo

that stuff,

and then you blend that in.

You dilute it down with that Pilsner just to get that

amplitude down in check,

and then, so we go

s- we go 60% Pilsner on this one, and we go 30% Munich,

and then we do about 4% dark Munich, and

if your math is catching

up

there, that leaves me 6%

to work with, and that last 6% is a, is a blend of, uh, caramel dark Munich.

So we'll take a dark Munich

and we--

They.

The,

the Germans have

a way of, of making caramel malt that's different from the way the English make it, that's different from the way that we make it in the

United States,

and then you really

can't sub

one for the other.

But basically,

when you do

caramel

malts,

you,

you stew

the, the wort inside of the kernel

itself.

So you steep

it at one point in the, in the

process, and you, you see

a little, a little, uh,

I don't want to say fermentation, but you see

a little, um, what am I looking for?

You break the sugars down into

candy,

and then you heat it up real quickly before it ferments through to alcohol, and then you got what you saw.

You got tiny little candy packets.

Those are called caramel malts.

Don't try to eat those from the bag.

They really are hard.

They're very, like, gravelly.

mess your teeth up.

Yeah.

Like a Skittles.

Yeah.

But

anyway, we grind them up, and then we put

them in, and they

dissolve with our mash.

You don't even have to mash those.

They're just, they're already sugar ready to be fermented.

So you can just grind them up and throw them at the

end of a mash, and then just rinse them

with hot water if you wanted to.

So anyway, it's those ingredients, and then we'll, we'll try to get the color right by adjusting with a little bit of dark wheat malt.

Is--

Not all the

sugar

ferments out because there's still a lot

of sweetness

residual in

the

Yeah.

And, and now

this is-- you

opened the door wide for me there

because-

I know.

Close it,

Close it.

back.

Hold on

Close

back up.

no, no, no, no, I just

wanna say this: sweetness and maltiness aren't the same.

Right.

So

people will oft- often say they'll think that-- and they'll, they'll

put them

in

their head as the same

thing.

They're not.

You can have a really dry bock with-- which my philosophy is it should be really dry, but it

should drink very sweet.

I don't wanna say sweet, but malty, what people would think of as sweet.

And, And, once you have one that's not

as dry as that, you'll know what I mean.

It

drinks heavy, it stays on your tongue,

and it coats.

Well, this is one of the challenges

of So

a Bock beer--

So

lagers

typically

have more of a,

a danciness on the tongue.

They're not as,

like, thick or heavy or viscous as some of the ales or

most of

the ales.

And so the crispiness that comes in just the mouthfeel, Bocks really don't have that.

They're

like a

full-bodied lager-

Yeah.

And

some of that's alcohol

because

once you go above 6%,

gonna have

increase viscosity.

Yeah.

And that

gives your, your-- it tricks your brain

What are the, uh, what are the stats on the scapegoat?

Uh, this is seven two

It's a s- this is a seven- Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

Seven point two.

Yep.

All right.

Yep

Wish

I would- it's

not a big one.

It's

not a

big one.

No.

It's subtle

It is, it

is very

subtle,

dr- when you're used to

drinking the 3.2%

Oh,

am,

it's like,

Ooh, okay.

Well, but then the doppelbock that we make is about nine, and then we have the, the barrel-aged

one, which is

12,

Eisbock that

we don't

doppelbock that we don't make.

No, we have the

rye.

Oh, the rye,

yeah.

But then there's the one we don't make, which would

be 14%

if we did.

did

make it, but we don't

The one we

did make.

Yeah.

El Wes.

Yeah.

Um,

the-- you said something pretty interesting though that I

think, um, well, I need

to know the difference so that the next time I'm drinking a beer I can say the difference, is maltiness and sweetness.

What is the difference between that in, uh, in flavor and in

palate?

Well, right off the bat, like that, that body you get, uh, at

the end, I

mean the fol- the long follow through,

that's

gonna be sweetness.

That's that

cloying, like coating.

You're like, "Oh, this is

not making me want to

drink another sip,

more or less another

glass."

be sweet

No.

It shouldn't be sweet.

No.

But, but maltiness, you

know, that, that's something different.

You're drinking it and your brain is telling you that it's sweet, but then it dries up on the tongue right after.

The, it, it's, it's, it's psychology.

a chocolate malt versus a chocolate shake and you got the malt

blended in?

It just, it's like a t- it just, you take the little dial of sweetness and

you just go down a notch

when you add that

malt.

But it feels- It's still

when you're drinking

it.

Yeah.

But when you're

done, you're

l- you

don't feel …like, uh, like your mouth is

The, The,

We

had Randy Mosher on this podcast at some point, and

he talks

about how we have these Ratatouille moments in our brain.

You know, the-- He-- I think Joel has said that

too,

and, and it-- you don't

just A plus B doesn't equal C or it, it's, it's

very, very difficult psychology of, of the olfactory that we're playing with here

And

with the flavor though of using these different malts and like exploring, you know, the, the Munich and the

Pilsen or the Pilsner malt, um,

and it is a

full-bodied lager,

which I think is

one of the more

interesting versions of lager because,

you

know, a Pilsner tastes like a Pilsner.

Um,

and yes, they can have depth of flavor, flavor if you're looking for

it and like all that, but we're talking about Bock.

What

makes the, the

complexity of a

Bock so intriguing?

Oh, that

you can burn it.

the

What's the

poker

Yes.

What's The,

poker called Yeah, it's, it's called Bier Stockeln.

Bier Stockeln.

You remember?

Bier

wrote it down.

Yeah.

no, wait.

Hang on.

Bier Stockel.

Yeah, Bier

Stockel.

Yes.

Um, this is

translated as beer sting or beer spike.

Um-

call this Poke Your Goat Day at the brewery.

So

bog means goat.

Cause

take a,

you take a hot poker and you stick it

in the fire, and then you stick

it into the-- And it onl- it works for really heavily malted beers, and the

bocks are the

best.

Really hot stick into the beer, and it's basically making beer s'mores.

It crystallizes the sugars that are still there, um, and it

just car--

And you

hold it in

crystallize it.

I'm sorry.

It

much longer than you think you

should.

And, and then at the end of it, you have what is a warm marshmallow sitting on top.

It's

delicious.

it's-

so good.

Yeah.

And

Oh, it's-

that

with any other

style

of beer

though, right?

but what happens is when

you get people

with hot

pokers and, and high ABV beers, then they start thinking, "Let's do

it

to every

Oh,

they've done--

we, tried the whole lineup.

Hops Hops beers

not

do that

with a 547.

Was not made for that.

Well,

No.

we would never desecrate a 547

it, it caramelizes the remaining sugars, and it just adds a, a deeper complexity, um, to, to the beer.

And it's fun too, to

A- and it's fun, yeah.

Fire

and

beer

and beer.

we, we've

talked

we've

talked a lot about decoction, so I'm not gonna go on and on about that,

Do

you decoct this?

We do, and-- but I will tell you that

decoction, just

my

10-second explanation,

is where we cook the grain further.

So

gonna time it.

they cook it

upstream, the maltsters do, and they dry it, and they give it to us.

But sometimes you wanna make that fresh-out-of-the-oven flavor, so

we'll, we'll further cook

the grain on our system.

But-

That was

right on for 10

That

was, right?

under 10 seconds.

There it was, right?

It was a round of applause.

Yeah.

So.

for that ……because that

was, uh, truly an,

Boom, there it is.

Whole round of applause.

The applause

is longer than the explanation.

I love it.

Uh,

Boom.

There it is.

Round of applause is longer than the explanation.

Uh,

so but, you know, the brewers get tired of the extra 18 hours that that adds to a double batch.

So we, we do play with what's called a melanoidin

malt sometimes.

A

melanoidin malt is something that's very Reinheitsgebot compliant.

The Germans

even

approve no- uh, they nod approvingly with

its use, and that's

where the malt itself has been sort of cooked to higher

temperatures under certain conditions, and, and it encapsulates

those, those

melanoidins, and it's, it's

on demand, ready to

be used in

your brew house.

So we play with that a lot,

and sometimes

we even play with that when we decoct.

So we do a little bit of layering with it.

Yeah.

So I will say yes, we decoct, but we also play with these,

these, I don't even wanna say novel

ingredients.

They've been doing this

for hundreds of years.

So we

were talking

earlier also about the names of this.

What's in a name?

You know, it's,

this, this ……beer

has had many names,

and I am a,

a lover of stories.

We're at a

a bar

that also sells, sells stories.

So I think we should tell a story as to

why

it's now called the

Scapegoat, and where did it

begin?

did

What was its first name?

Um,

name?

Um,

oh.

I wanna say it did start as Okay, so-

want

Development.

Uh, y- uh, yes, or "Arrested Development." She loves that name.

I hate this name.

Oh my God.

If

we ever

divorce, it's gonna be 'cause of beer names.

Um, or y- By the

By the way, naming a beer is much harder than anything else.

Yeah

no,

um, so Bobby comes home.

He's like, "We figured out the name

for

the bock." And it's like, "What?" And

he goes, "You know,

on 'Arrested Development,' Bob Loblaw's

Law

Blog." Wait, Bob- Bob Loblaw's

I can't… Wait,

Bob

Loblaw's Law Blog.

Law Blog

So it w- it was

a lawyer, attorney with his own blog?

Yeah.

Bob Loblaw.

And it was Bob

Loblaw's is his first

name.

I can't even s- Bob Loblaw's Law Blog.

So it

So it became Bob

Loblaw's Law Blog.

So then it became Bob Loblaw's Law Blog.

became Bob…

Loblaw's Law Bock.

What did you think we were

Was that Henry Winkler or was that

No, that was, um… No, it was, uh, uh,

Charles in Charge.

Oh, yeah.

Okay, yeah.

God, what was his name?

You're

too

young, Oh, no.

watch the show.

Thank you

Bob Loblaw had a, had a law blog.

good

What's his na- anyway, it, it was an awful name.

So

So

we named it Bob Loblaw's Law

So we named it Bob Loblaw's Law Bock.

No, we didn't.

Yes, we did, for two years.

So

then, um,

we needed…

The

Maibock was

named Walk in the Park- Yep … Maibock, and that was too hard.

And we didn't know

what we were doing,

um, as Gary's pointed out many times.

Um, and so we learned that we needed to make more succinct, short names.

And the goat homage,

so we named our Maibock

Lily Goat, and then we thought,

"Oh, it'd be really great to name the bock

not Lo- Bob Loblaw's Law

Bock."

we have this employee named Alex Schultz

"…But

to

to

name

it something goat."

And we have an employee who is the

scapegoat on

everything that goes wrong in

the

brewery

he, is-- We love him so

He is, one, he's the brother that you

never

had.

He is so,

We

wanna kill him so much

… Allison: I love Joel him so much …friend of our family.

We love him dearly.

him dearly.

But he will forever leave half-drank 547s

everywhere.

There, have been

days where

has

become

has been a Skilsaw sitting right in

front of the POS, which is where you buy your beer, when we open

after he has,

quote, "finished a project."

So there's tools

everywhere, and

there's a nail gun over here, and there's

a

saw there, like-

out, like,

But he,

but, but, he's,

doing the job, so we're throwing him under the bus.

So any- but anyway.

so- he got blamed for

everything-

brewery cat.

He's like the brewery cat … even if he didn't

always do it.

cat … even if

So here we go

do it.

He's

He is the brewery cat.

So Scapegoat was, was named after Alex

Schultz …at the end of the day.

Um, I did

look up who Bob Law was.

Um, it's Bob

Loblaw, and it's played

by Scott

Baio

Palfeo.

Gosh dang it.

That was it.

Oh

uh,

the catchphrase, "Why should

you go

to jail for

a crime someone

else

noticed?"

That

feels really on

So arrested Development.

That's so great.

That's very much a scapegoat right

there.

So

our doppelbock is an equally dumb name, which I love

dumb name.

Oh.

And I think we've talked about that on the show before- but it's just so much fun to

Triple

Debacle Doppelbock.

And if-- tune

into that episode whenever that happened.

There are

three reasons why we say

Triple Debacle.

Let's

We'll see

how long we can do the podcast for while drinking it and

then

No.

That one's the 12%, isn't

Yeah,

when it's barrel aged, yeah.

That's the rye.

rye.

But then, yeah,

so then the, the rye barrel-aged

Triple Debacle

Debauchery.

Yeah.

is Triple Debauchery Rye.

Yeah

Uh, we didn't mention

hops, but I don't know how much we've talked about hops, uh, from Seitz Farm in Germany, but we use, uh, hops from a tiny little farm in Germany, which we will visit on this trip that we're going on, right?

Yes, yes, yes.

yes.

Seitz Farm is just

magnificent.

We use Perle, Perle hops on this.

Delicious.

What does, um… Because this isn't w- If people are like,

" I don't like hoppy beer."

Oh yeah, I Shouldn't maybe even mention

yeah,

this is the one that you'd

be like- "All right, fine, take this."

But, you've gotta have those hops, otherwise it's, this will present

as cloying.

yeah.

it balances.

Yeah

is a-- No, I am a very-- I don't, I'm not anti-hop.

I just don't like

to taste the hops.

And

this, there's no

taste of hops

That's-- That does

seem like you're

anti-hop,

It

But I, but I still

argue that

I like it there.

I'm inclusive to hops.

I really

you don't just go pull a commodity hop off the shelf, though, once you put this much into a, a lager like this.

So it does matter what

you use, even if it doesn't jump

out

Oh, I trust you.

I trust you

to blend

the hops such that I don't taste

them, and

it's

So tell us,

um, it's a Perla, is that what it's called?

Perla.

Okay.

What, um, what

flavors are you getting

from the

hops in this

an, you

get just a little

spiciness 'cause

you're, you're

wanting to get a little bit-- You wanna, you wanna knock the edge off of that sweeter character.

Uh, you

s-

you wanna stay away from some of those

lemon characters you might get from, like, your Saaz.

You know, you don't want, you don't want anything citrusy to

pop out.

And when I say citrusy, I'm

not talking

about Pacific

Northwest

level citrus

here.

These are all in context.

These all in context.

It's like

LaCroix type of

citrus.

exactly.

type of citrus.

Yeah, exactly.

But it matters on a beer like this.

Um, and some of it is just,

again, synergy, and you, you

play with it.

We tried Herzbrucker, and we try Perle, and we try this farm, and

we try that farm, and, and,

like, I'm loving Herzbrucker in our Helles.

It gives us a little bit

more citrus,

believe it or not, and it really makes it pop.

What is,

um, you know, it-- you're a small brewery, family-owned and operated.

Um,

does--

how much does that play

into the hop selection and, oh,

I guess all the

ingredients of the selections that you make when you look at the companies that you work with?

Yeah,

big time, especially with these hop growers.

Um, the, the

maltsters,

maltsters, we don't have direct contact with a lot of the farmers, but when it comes to the hop growers, we-- I mean, we're not, I'm not, like, directly

in contact with these farmers,

but I work through brokers to get

access to them.

Someday

we'll be big enough that we'll be able to buy pallets direct from

these farms,

but it's incredibly important to, to us to, to do that.

These hops are,

you know, they've been cultivated

for how many centuries on this

one hill and in this one climate, and I think it really matters.

And, And, I am a big malt fan.

I'm not trying to downplay all that, but, but the f- the farming

really matters when it comes to hops.

You can't just, you can't just mass produce

what they're

doing in some of these

fields out there

You--

know, we

talk a lot about, um, vibes with

beers and like,

and what you're, how you're feeling with stuff.

What--

To me,

a Bock

beer doesn't seem like

one that you would drink in the summertime 'cause it, it

does, it tastes

like

fall to me.

Um, what is the ideal setting for, uh, a s- a pint of Scapegoat?

Well, it's

not

For you.

Let, let's ……just make it hyper-specific just for you.

Poke that

sucker with a

hot

Yeah.

I mean, uh,

Hope that sucker works.

Surrounded by

150 of

your closest

Yeah.

Surrounded by 150

of

fire and a

No, I

a bratwurst

with this if you eat meat.

yeah

I do think that having it, um, it definitely needs

to be cold.

You need to be wearing a coat when

you're

drinking it.

Um,

especially

you're not cigar ready with this.

I think that's a doppelbock.

That's

right.

Yeah.

is a doppelbock, but this is like

fall weather.

You've got your coat

' cause you haven't acclimated to winter's coming.

Um,

I remember that

Stephanie Harvey, she used to do sales for us, and

it

was our doppelbock

that she said this about.

But she said it

pairs well with,

she said something like, she was being snarky, "Pairs

well with like pretzels and

bratwurst and fancy shit."

that w- that was

the description just to see if anyone

ever read it.

But it was I would say, yeah, like a, a cold afternoon- Yeah Yeah

say, yeah,

like a,

a cold afternoon

and

You have to wear a coat

… Decker: yeah,

early onset of seasonal