Danielle Rourke, Senior Higher Education Strategist at Dell Technologies, joins me today! We discuss how esports can teach similar skills as traditional sports, and can reach more students(including neurotypically diverse students), what tools are out there, and how different levels in education are responding to esports. Danielle also shares an insane amount of good research in the field, and tells us that laying down breaks aren't as effective as walking around breaks (sad for sloths like me).

Episode Resources:

https://corporate.delltechnologies.com/en-us/social-impact/transforming-lives/education/girls-who-game.htm#tab0=0

https://www.teamliquid.com/alienware/

https://esportsinsider.com/2021/06/team-liquid-and-alienware-launch-good-in-gaming-platform/#:~:text=Multi%2Dregional%20esports%20organisation%20Team,%2C%20empowerment%20and%20inclusive%20competition

https://medium.com/@nicolas.besombes

https://medium.com/@nicolas.besombes/esports-professions-e402a1c3ab92

https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/7/3/e001118

https://www.ijesports.org/article/59/html

Welcome to the meta woman podcast we address the

issues, opportunities and challenges facing women in the

development of the metaverse the biggest revolution since the

internet itself. Every week we bring you conversations with top

female talent and business executives operating in the

gaming and crypto industries. Here's your host Lindsey the

boss pass the metal woman podcast starts now.

Hello, and welcome to the metal woman podcast part of the high

politics media Podcast Network until I do these intros live

because I every once in a while I have a stumble. I'm your host

was your backpack from struggled to success recovering and all

returning listeners, thank you so much for supporting the show.

You've heard my stumbles on these intros before. So please

be sure to leave a five star rating and review tell friend

about the pod. And for new listeners. Welcome. I hope you

enjoy this show. And I hope you'll keep listening on with

me. We have such a great guest this week. I'm so excited to

introduce this woman. She has been not only great for me to

learn about the gaming industry in higher ed but just a

wonderful person to talk to and to catch up with and I've had

the pleasure of doing that several times now. She's just a

great resource for all things higher ed and a really great

gaming industry. Please welcome everyone. Danielle Rourke, the

senior higher education strategist at Dell Technologies

to met a woman Danielle, welcome to the show. Thank you so much

for coming on. Thank you so

much, Lindsay, for having me. I'm incredibly excited. longtime

listener first time person on the show.

First time callers with the old radio thing. Exactly. Sadly, I

just started if you wouldn't mind just giving the audience a

couple sentences of your background, let us know who you

are what you do all that good stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So I am actually a senior higher

education strategist with Dell Technologies. And prior to that,

I've been here for about two years prior to that, I worked at

the University of Colorado Boulder as an Associate Director

in their IT department, and never actually thought I would

leave academia, because I did love it. But got this

opportunity to be a part of this team. And the Education Strategy

Team at Dell is incredibly unique because we are all former

educators, administrators within education. Somehow we've got

those who are focused on K 12, that were former teachers,

principals, superintendents, and those of us from high Ed, who

were former CIOs, former CISOs former academic learning

technology directors, we even have a PhD chemist and a

librarian. So we cover a wide gamut of the education industry.

And we're able to bring all of those experiences together, we

like to say that we each have our own superpowers. And so

combined were like this amazing Avengers team for education, and

technology. And so that was just too good of an opportunity for

me to pass up. So that's why I came to Dell. Prior to Dell, and

CU Boulder, I was actually really just in software and

application development, my whole career. Being a tester, a

project manager, business analyst, a systems analyst. So

I've had a really cool career in tech. And yeah, have really

enjoyed it.

So neat, I will say too, so we're going to get into this to

provide you all some context, you all being more, Danielle

runs both an excellent Discord server and among monthly

research calls, that both center on presenting the research,

particularly within education, is really, really fun. And I

think that this goes to show your history and education,

because I do always find people who run calls that have a

background in education has such an exacting and clear to follow

approach, very classroom style. I always know I'm going to get a

clear agenda beforehand. And after and during there's going

to be someone to kind of push along the conversation or

curtail it when necessary, or it's always very well, right.

And so for those of you who didn't research, I highly

recommend both of those tools, which will link to in the show

notes. And you just have awesome access to a lot of what is

happening in the world of academia. As somebody who comes

from an academic research background, I love what we talk

about public papers. I'm sure you do as well. And I know that

you have aside from research called and that is for server,

focus on education, publishing, academia, all that good stuff.

Let's have the summer esports conference, K through 12 esports

networking group, and gaming nonprofits like the varsity

esports foundation support for gaming nonprofits like the

Merseyside foundation ladies, climax in gaming, so on and so

on. So you are doing a lot. We're definitely gonna link to a

lot of stuff in the show notes. But I just say all that to give

some of the audience a little bit of context for what you do.

And with that in mind, my first question comes straight from

you. With us so kindly sent over some topics for today. So, like

I said, you can tell you come from academia, because

I also love color coded spreadsheets. So

it's kind of type A personality for sure. Could you tell us why

esports should be part of higher education? What opportunity to

offer universities? I know you had mentioned some research from

Nico besom. As far as the answer, I hope I pronounced his

name correctly. But why should esports be in higher ed?

Yeah, absolutely. So this is a question I actually do get a lot

from educators and schools who are kind of interested in it.

But you know, there's still kind of that outdated perception of

isn't at all just playing video games in your basement and

eating Cheetos and drinking Mountain Dew. And sometimes,

yeah, sometimes it is that, but it's also so much more so

especially in education, you know, whether that's k 12, or

higher ed, we've seen esports be an incredible community builder.

And it really allows students not only to have voice and

choice in how they're learning and how they're participating in

school activities, but also allows them to find their tribe,

you know, and to be a part of a community that is doing things

and is passionate about something that they're already

passionate, and they love. You know, and so we have a ton of

examples, just from from both higher education in K 12. You

know, one of our really good friends Kyle burger down in

Grapevine. Colleyville in Texas, you know, he talks about how

their K through 12 program, 70% of the kids that are involved in

it weren't involved in any other extracurricular activity on

campus. And then you also have, you know, like 10% of their

program, I think he said, our students who are on the spectrum

who maybe didn't feel like they could be involved in other

activities, or didn't feel comfortable in those activities.

And so, to me, that is the biggest primary driver of why

schools need to be involved in this because it is meeting the

students where they are, it's something that they're already

passionate about something that they are doing on their own

without anybody telling them that they have to. And schools,

both k 12. and higher ed can really provide that foundation

and can provide incredible structures to make sure that as

the students are participating in these activities that they're

passionate about, that they have that social emotional learning

background, that they understand diversity, equity inclusion,

they understand how to win well, as well as how to lose well. So

it's an incredible opportunity for any educational institution

to provide that structure and those good guidance, and, you

know, activities and processes and systems in place, but also

allow the students to do something that they love, and

they're passionate about.

Activists really need are you when you talk about esports? Are

you talking about both kinds of clubs, where they might play in

for entertainment games for fun, and do specifically developed

for education? Or are you do you focus more on one than the

other? Yeah, I

mean, it really depends on where the program wants to go. So for

example, you know, we'll talk a little bit later, probably about

girls who game, but that utilizes Minecraft for

education. And, you know, Minecraft has actually built in

some esports competition activities. And we do that with

our girls game program. So that is one of the programs that I

would say, you know, yes, a lot of people play it for fun, and

because it's just really cool. And, you know, the, the

creatures make funny noises. But you know, there's also a

learning aspect to it, there's, you know, you use bone meal to

help your plants grow better, and the interaction between the

different kinds of materials and, you know, learning about

economics, even as far as like diamonds. So, so there's

definitely that aspect. But, you know, most of the time when

people think about esports, just, you know, kind of, in big

capital letters that is more focused on the recreational

games that are very, very popular in the mainstream, that

are very popular in the professional esports scene, but

bringing that to a high school or collegiate or maybe even a

middle school level, and having those interactions. But, you

know, I'm glad you brought that up, Lindsey, because it's, it's

such an important piece of it, too, is that there are so many

learning opportunities there. There's teamwork, there's a

collaboration, there's strategy. There's analytics, there are,

you know, the logistics of pulling together a huge event.

Those are all things that can serve those students in, you

know, their future educational career as well as their

professional career.

Absolutely. I think that's such a good point because I come from

a traditional sports background as many of our longtime

listeners know I do find that a lot of the same things that I

was taught in traditional sports are, can be very well applied

into anything well structured, well run, encouraging and

inclusive, esports programs. I think that that's absolutely

true without that kind of teamwork, that kind of

collaboration, quick thinking, decision making, all of that can

be learned just form a virtual world as it can with a sports

team. So I think it's, it's really great, especially for

newer, typically diverse students, like you mentioned

earlier, that courses now new possibilities and new schools.

And that end, how have you seen the interest grow in your time?

First, as someone who is in the technology field, and then as

someone who's an educator, analisar, who work in education

technology in that overlap? What have you seen in the growth and

I, I was originally just going to ask about the university

level, but I'd love to hear how you've seen all levels of

education, grow and incorporate this more and kind of the change

you see in the media, in your career, 510 years in the

interest levels? And how schools are incorporating it? What's up

and looking like?

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I would say that there was

definitely a growing interest it was growing, it was becoming

more popular, we see the data and the numbers behind that, I

would venture to say that, you know, the, the events of the

past two years have actually encouraged that growth. And Ben

even more of a catalyst for that growth, because so many, you

know, in person sports, like what you were just talking about

Lindsay, they weren't able to safely compete, they weren't

able to safely be together and, you know, get that close contact

that you often have with traditional sports. And so

esports really allowed schools to keep students involved, it

allowed students to make sure that they had connections that

they had people that they could play with that they had

activities that there was, you know, something scheduled to

look forward to. And so we really saw a lot of the virtual

esports programs just light up and, and even more leadership

at, you know, whether that's at a school district level, or

whether at an administration level for a college, they

recognize the fact that okay, everything else is down right

now, what can we do to get these students motivated, involved,

encouraged, you know, keep them together and keep their spirits

high. And so esports really facilitated that for a lot of

schools. So we saw an uptick in interest there. And now that

we're starting to kind of figure this whole like, masked vaccine,

six feet apart thing, you know, and being able to have safer in

person events, we're seeing it just continue to grow, like, you

know, it didn't stop or slow down, coming back into person.

And so we've seen a lot of schools that are very interested

in that. But I'm really encouraged by the fact that so

many schools are starting to recognize that there's more than

just community and it's more than just having fun. I

actually, I think I've talked with you about this before,

Lindsey, I call it I need to, like trademark this thing. But I

call it the esports engagement pyramid is kind of my theory.

And so you know, at that base level of the pyramid, you've got

community involvement and collaboration and just, you

know, building that those ties to the students themselves and

to the schools. And that's great. And if that is the level

that most school programs stay at, that's still a huge benefit,

and has so many of those other aspects that we were talking

about. But I feel like then there's the second level of

adding in curricular and academic achievements, you know,

let's educate these students on how can they get a job in this

industry? How can they stay and actually support themselves and

make money doing something that's they're passionate about?

And, and it doesn't have to just be esports? We actually see the

majority of, you know, this is kind of transitioning into the

college question that you asked Lindsay, as far as, you know, we

see courses, certificate programs, degree programs,

around esports, business management, or, you know, AV

setups, or just different aspects so that it's not purely

esports. It's where you're taking those other trainings and

education that you get from being an HR person or a payroll

person or a physical therapist or management trainee, you know,

you can bring those into the esports industry. And so I'm

super excited that schools are starting to recognize that and

actually build out that curriculum and also recognize

that it can be a revenue stream for the schools because that's a

new program that not every school has and can attract

students to them. And then the top of the pyramid is like you

talked about earlier research, you know, just the academic

rigorous research Around esports you know, much like, back in the

70s and 80s, there was this really groundswell of research

around traditional sports to help make it safer and healthier

for the athletes. We're starting to see that now as well, for

esports.

I do think you should trademark the pyramid. It's a great idea

that you should spread the pyramids hard. Why? Cuz I think

that that's a very kind of unique and visual way of

understanding the whole thing, what the whole ecosystem looks

like, as he says, following on that, aren't there any. I asked

this because I wrote actually early on in this pandemic, a an

op ed that never went up getting published about using discord

for after school activities, and how even physical activities

could be worked in my head, this whole thing about competitions

via discord and all this, all the stuff that I thought was a

way to help students in schools models and other programs that

I've read, anyway. Are there any platform or technologies out

there already? That you're, you're kind of seeing and

thinking, wow, this is definitely a great thing for

schools. I know you already mentioned define craft, but any

other things, any other tools that gaming has brought us like

discord, or any, even Roblox all that stuff? What tools are out

there that you are really excited about that have been

really easily translated into the space?

That's a great question. Because there are a lot. And it's

difficult to name a couple, by the way, I want to read that op

ed that never sent it to me. But you know, you mentioned discord.

And that is a great tool. As long as the students are of a

certain age, you know, if they're under I think it's like

13. You know, it's it's very difficult for them to utilize

that. I know, with the girls game program, we've used

Microsoft Teams. I know that there have been yeah, there's

just been some other platforms as well. Yeah, definitely. And

most schools have access to it. So it's something that, you

know, can be monitored by the school officials make sure that

everyone is being, you know, safe and inclusive, and their

language and everything. You know, I would just say there's,

oh, gosh, there's a ton of them. We're seeing more and more, you

know, devices, actually two that are trying to help gamers come

out that, you know, Microsoft has their accessibility

controller, that just makes sure that all students can be

involved in can play. And that's the great thing about esports,

too, is that it's, you know, you don't have to be the tallest kid

in the room to play it, you don't have to be the strongest

or the fastest. So it's just wonderful to be able to be

inclusive to as many people as possible. I would say, you know,

Roblox we've seen some really cool and interesting

adaptations, some new programs being built within the Roblox

platform. So I'm kind of keeping my eye on that a little bit. You

know, we also want to make sure that any tools that are out

there that help the students learn about digital literacy.

You know, Adele, we actually some of my amazing colleagues

have built out some incredible digital literacy tools. And

that's important in gaming and an esports, as well as just in

their normal educational outlooks. So I would say, you

know, there's always more tools coming out. AR VR is going to be

pretty big. I think once. Once we get some of the logistical

issues figured out, I think, yeah, AR VR provides so many

great learning and immersive opportunities. So yes, those are

just some of the things I'm keeping my eyes on.

Very cool. So we've talked a lot about kind of feel like we've

we've covered a lot of the K through 12 stuff. And this is

something that you briefly mentioned about college programs

that are starting to create disciplines or create majors or

certificate programs that are in esports. But I want to talk a

little bit about the the pathway right after college or right

after high school. So when you're choosing a college, and

then after college when you're actually in the job market. So

that kind of pipeline of those three little steps. And there's

obviously a much longer pipeline through there. But how have you

seen the change in schools? And what have you seen that makes

you excited about schools, thinking more about how to

incorporate esports just into that part? Both kids coming out

of high school looking for universities, I think that

there's a good advertising element for schools that have

esports programs. And then I think that once kids are ready

to enter the job market once they're graduate, there's a good

learning element of having the things that you might need to

get into the gaming industry by having those programs. So are

you having your conversations with schools about why we should

do this? Because I I think we both agree that it's a good idea

for schools to incorporate more esports. And even the

surrounding peripheries, esports, management, event

management, marketing, business, all that good stuff into their

curriculum. That's the first part. Are you seeing? Are you

having fewer conversations about why we should do this? And the

second part of that question is, are you have we reached kind of

a tipping point where you feel like, Finally, there's a lot of

options for students, as schools are really starting to offer

these programs? Are we still kind of working towards making

this highly available?

Those are fantastic questions. I love that. So to answer the

first one, as far as you know, am I having less of those? Why

should we do it conversations a little bit, I would say, if I'm

going to be completely honest, there's still a lot of, you

know, I don't want to I don't want to make it about age or

anything. But there's a lot of the generations that didn't grow

up with video games, that still don't quite understand all of

those different applications don't understand that you can

make money and have a legitimate career, I actually was just

talking with a public school district, Friday of last week,

and, you know, showed the students and said, Okay, if this

is where your interest lies, then build your case for your

parents build your case for your teachers, and say, These are the

disciplines. These are the jobs that are out there available in

this world. And here are some example, job postings with some

example salaries. So you know, these are actual companies not

fly by night, you know, just started yesterday, but then they

also have actual salaries posted. So that's something that

we definitely encourage. So I would say it's starting to get

better. We're having more discussions around how, as

opposed to why so you know, how do we implement this into our

curriculum? How do we tie it with whatever makes that

particular school or university unique? So you have, you know,

some schools that are really highly praised for their

business programs. They're looking at it more from an a

Business Administration viewpoint and a talent support

viewpoint. You may have other schools that, like, New York

Institute of Technology comes to mind. They are incredible when

it comes to health and medicine. And so they're looking at it a

little bit more from how do we make sure that these athletes

are staying healthy, that they're getting a good balance

of mental physical and emotional support while they're involved

in these esports programs. So I think it's incredible that we're

having a little bit more of those how conversations, as

opposed to just purely the why so but, but there are still

quite a few way conversations out there. But that's what you

and I are here for Lyndsey. And then, as far as you know how how

they're working into it, what that pipeline looks like you

mentioned Nikko, the Psalms earlier, and he is a fantastic

researcher, if the listeners haven't gone out and looked him

up on medium, a lot of his articles and research are out

there on medium as well as the esports Research Network, and

the International Journal of esports. So definitely go out

and and browse through some of that content. But he has this

amazing kind of mind map out there called esports related

professions. And I utilize it and give him credit as much as I

possibly can, because it just shows this incredible web of

different types of esports jobs, gaming jobs that are out there,

that people you know, maybe don't even think about whether

it's media, or whether it's events, organization, or even,

you know, Journalism and Broadcasting or even education,

because you have to be able to train people to go into these

different types of roles. So, you know, I think it's

fantastic. We are definitely building the pipeline, I would

say there's a lot of room for growth. There are some

incredible studies out there, which we'll probably talk about

in a little bit, but that are documenting Where are all of the

collegiate programs, whether they're courses, certificates,

degree programs, minors, majors, etc. Where are they at? What are

the schools that are offering them? You know, what are the

schools that are really ahead of their time in understanding that

this is an industry that we need to be able to train students

for, and give them that education to to do these jobs?

Well, so I think we're growing. I think there's still a lot of

room for growth. And I'm excited to see where it goes.

That's awesome. I'm glad to know that the space is that the

education space is has been more amenable to incorporating mes.

And I do think it's not easy, but I think that's the I suppose

the easiest way to get involved is just to allow students to

start a club. And I'm glad to hear that a lot of universities

are going beyond that. And then administration is starting to

get interested or at least listen to us. Like yourself when

they talk about the good that esports and gaming can bring to

the university. So that's encouraging, pivoting a little

bit, talk them about girls who game. But I would love to hear

more. We've covered some aspects of inclusivity. Thus far, but

you tell me a little bit more about the growth hacking

program, what you're hoping to do with it, how you're trying to

improve the key, bringing more women into the games industry,

something obviously we care about the man or woman podcast.

I can just tell me a little bit more about that. Yeah,

absolutely.

So girls game was started by my amazing colleague Katina pulka,

shout out to the Canadians here, listening. And it was just

wonderful. It really stemmed from, you know, her going to

different events, or, you know, being involved in esports, and

education. But noticing that there weren't a whole lot of

girls, there was predominantly boys, or those that identified

as boys. And, you know, so when she would meet a girl or a

female identifying student, she would say, you know, why, where,

where are your friends? Like, what are you the only one here?

And most of the time she would get answers back, you know, oh,

they thought this was a boy thing. Oh, they didn't think

that they could compete. Oh, they, you know, they just didn't

think it was for them. And so that really led her to dive into

the research. And, you know, some of the research that we

got, you know, less than 50% of high school girls know, a woman

in a STEM career. And women are 50% of the workforce, but only

around 28% of the science and engineering workforce. So those

were things that we were like, wow, these are, you know, where

does this come from. And the majority of the research that we

were finding, you know, really says that it's kind of that

fourth or eighth grade period, like, there are a lot of girls

who want to be scientists or technologists or you know,

whatever, before fourth grade, but after fourth grade, it

starts to drop off. And we've actually heard that in

discussions with some of the colleges like I had a

conversation with someone around that here in Colorado. And they

said, you know, when, when women start off in a tech degree,

there's, it's usually like a 6040 5050, split between female

and men in the technology degree. And then by the time

they finish, it's, it's very rarely over 10%, as far as the

class, the graduating class. So, you know, what could we do,

especially as a technology company, and as a technology

company that is very, very focused on making sure that

women are a part of the STEM workforce, and making sure that

women have leadership roles within that STEM workforce. And

so we came up with this program, girls who game that is focused

on that fourth through eighth grade range to make sure that

those girls understand that they have support. So for example,

it's really based around three pillars. The first one is that

it's a girl centric ecosystem, it gives them a community, it

allows them to learn from each other and build that confidence,

and see that there are others like them that are interested in

these things. The second pillar is authentic application. So

that's really learner driven experiences in STEM, but also

developing global competencies. So every semester when we have a

new girls game cohort, we decide, you know, as a group,

what are the UN sustainability goals that we're going to focus

on for this particular project? Yeah, it is really cool. Um, we,

we love exposing them to the fact that there is a broader

world and that there are worldwide issues that they can

actually help and make a huge difference on. So, you know, for

example, we've had eateries of the future where they have to

think about sustainability and clean water and, you know,

accessibility and things like that, how are you going to make

sure that people in wheelchairs or people with any kind of

disability might be able to get into your eatery of the future.

So those are all very, very important aspects of the

program. And then that final pillar is mentorship, we

actually provide opportunities via Flipgrid. There's another

tool that's important in education, Lindsey, they, you

know, doing kind of that asynchronous mentoring, we pair

the girls who are in the program up with adult mentors, who are,

you know, most frequently women in the technology industry,

whether that's from Dell or from Microsoft, it's a huge

partnership with Microsoft, so shout out to them, thank you.

But providing that, you know, the the the old saying that you

can't be what you can't see, we want to make sure that they can

see women in technology. So yeah, it's incredibly important.

I've been a judge and a program, mentor, and you know, all kinds

of things for the program. We do build esports competitions in at

the end of the cohort. So once they're all done with their

projects that they're making, then we could have fun and do an

esports competition and a celebration. And it's just

amazing hearing the feedback from the girls and seeing their

eyes light up about the fact that other people like the same

things that they do and that it's okay it is cool. For them

to be interested in technology.

I love that you include us sustainability goals. I went to,

I went to grad school for policy management, but I focused in

international trade development. So I'm extremely familiar with.

That was something that I spent quite a lot of time on. So

that's such a funny kind of crossover that has been one of

the most fun parts about working in gaming, right, is that I get

to crossover with so many other things on I studies and have

been interested in for years. So that's a funny little shout out.

And what a throwback for me, so that I felt like, right back in

my grad school program, whoa, I thought about that. But

just like you said, I mean, that's, that's the wonderful

thing to me about esports and gaming. I mean, like, I've been

a gamer nerd, since I was a little girl, and just the

connections that I've built, and the you know, whether that's

just social or professional, and, you know, the friends that

I've made, and the things that I've learned, just from my

experience in gaming have been a huge part of who I am. And so

you know, girls game and other programs, just getting students

involved, just helping them to understand that this is cool,

this is a good thing. This is something you can be involved in

and something that you can make a difference

with. Yeah, very neat. Beth, your colleagues and the

supporters of that. Very cool, how holistic approaches to Oh,

that's awesome. And another program I know you're involved

in, is the good end gaming program that you're doing with

liquid and Alienware. I would love to hear more about that. It

seems like a lot of these programs have the goal of

creating positive environments for kids to be able to learn and

develop and grow. But yeah, bump your bar about good in gaming as

well.

Yeah, absolutely. So yes, good. And gaming was kind of a

brainchild between Alienware and Teamliquid, in saying, you know,

how can we give back? How can we make sure that we're focusing on

students and young people and helping them achieve their goals

and their dreams, you know, whether that's going to work for

Team Liquid or going to work for a gaming company or a hardware

manufacturer like Dell or Alienware? You know, so the, the

basis of it was that we believe everyone should have the

opportunity to pursue a career within the gaming industry in

some way. And so really good and gaming tries to help develop

that pathway in and there are a few different elements to the

program, you know, the first one is, is grow. And so that means,

you know, no matter what your background is, we really want to

be there to support you and in a broad mix of gaming esports

roles, etc. So there are a lot of different hands on learning

programs, there's actually Teamliquid and Alienware

Internship Program, where they teach you about portfolio and

career building, give you career advice, help you make those

personal and professional networking connections. And then

there's the Learn aspect to it. And there's actually this

incredible series that they've been doing and publishing out

there on YouTube, which I've shared in that Discord server

that you mentioned earlier, Lindsay and said, you know, hey,

add this to your curriculum for your esports programs, whether

they're clubs or whether they're actual academic programs. But

for example, you know, one of the recent ones was a day in the

life of an esports team manager. So they interview the team,

liquid esports, team manager and say, what do you do on a daily

basis? What does that really look like to give students and

young people that insight into Okay, do I think I want to do

that or is maybe that role not for me, but I want to do

something else. And then obviously, the compete they

host, you know, Rocket League tournaments and a few other

tournaments. There's an Alienware tournament series

Discord server out there, too. So, you know, making sure that

you're tying the learning and the growth with fun. And there's

also some opportunities out there for scholarships and

things like that. So just just really focusing on providing

those opportunities to young people who are interested in

getting into this industry.

We talked about the pipeline again, that's such a good way of

inserting yourself early and in a positive way. I certainly hope

that more of our programs kind of bring up although I think

that this is a this is a good one to start with, for sure. The

shifting gears for a second. And this is something that you

mentioned earlier, and I'm extra excited to hear your answer. But

is there any research that you're especially excited about

that has been published recently? What have you kept

your eye on? What excites you what's out there?

Okay, how long do we have? All right. So there is a ton of

research and guests so you know, you mentioned earlier Lindsay

about and thank you for attending that meeting, but that

we have that esports research collaborative every month and

there are just so many brilliant Didn't individual's

psychologist, researchers, doctors, you know, coaches

directors that are on that call every month and are really there

just to help build the community and to make it stronger and to

help support each other. In research and in studies, you

know, we've had opportunities come out of that call, where

researchers who maybe didn't know each other before, get

together and they say, Hey, I really liked what you said

there. What other work are you doing? Let's collaborate on a

study together and get it published. Also, you know, we've

utilized that group for help with study participants, because

you need to have esports layers if you're going to be doing

esports research. So being able to have those connections has

been really, really critical. And one of the the pieces of

research that kind of came out of one of those connections,

major shout out to Dr. Joanne Donohue, and Dr. Seth, Jenny,

and a few others who participated in that. Last year,

there was an original research study, published in the BMJ

journals, the BMJ open Sport and Exercise medicine journal,

volume seven, Issue three, if you're curious, but it was

titled, I may have my screen, I may be cheating a little bit. I

was. I was all about honesty, I love that out is. So that that

study that they did was breaking up prolonged sitting with a six

minute walk improves executive function in women and men,

esports players, it was a randomized trial that they did,

where they really wanted to see, you know, does physical activity

while you're gaming while you're playing esports games and

competing, does that help? Or does that hinder your

performance and so, you know, they utilized a lot of amazing

tools that are, you know, common or popular in the research

industry to measure cognitive development and cognitive

performance. And so, you know, they, they had very rigorous

outlined, well outlined plans for this research, and they

asked the participants to, you know, play a little bit and then

maybe take a rest just with their eyes away from the screen,

but not moving. And then they would ask them to play for a

while and then take a rest, but get up and take a six minute

walk, and then play a while and take a rest but go lay down, you

know, and like close your eyes or something to have that supine

rest. And so based on the study, they did find that having a six

minute walking break, where you were up, you're stretching,

you're getting blood flowing, it actually helped and improved the

cognitive performance scores. So it's incredible. And I really

love that particular research because I think it's so critical

that we have that kind of rigorous academic study that is

showing the true link between physical capabilities, physical

you know, just being mindful of your how much you're moving your

body, and what you're getting your body to move. So you're not

just sitting at a screen grinding for 11 hours a day.

That's not the way to maintain a healthy balance and to maintain

a sustainable career in esports. So I think we need to have more

and more of that kind of research that provides those

statistics and that respected scientific analysis that will

ultimately help colleges and universities recognize that

okay, there is something here we just need to make sure that we

implement safe and healthy programs to encourage it. So

that's one of my favorites. The other one that I'm going to say

and I know we've brought up Dr.

Really quick Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. Um, I would love to say

that I am well aware that things like six minute walk would be

good for me. Going to bed early would be good for me. That

happens in real life are not a different story. I was really

hoping that you were gonna say that the six minutes to find

sleeping bags I'm really absolutely yeah. I was really

hoping that the leg was gonna be as equal to the

that's the whole thing, right? You make a hypothesis and then

you test it out what is really,

really sad as a result. But anyway, I apologize. I just had

to get that out there for all the all the blogs out there like

be like their break leg down. No, it is fantastic.

Sleep is also a good part of a healthy balance. So yeah, I'm

really going to

sleep exact never stick Anyway, please tell me about the second

paper that you're going to write?

Yeah, no worries. Um, so this one was actually published in

the International Journal of esports. And again, we have Dr.

Seth Jenny, we've got Dr. Nicholas disarms, and we've got

Dr. Joey grazie, AK and That one was an inventory and analysis of

global higher education esports academic programming and

curricula, which is a mouthful. But essentially, it was a study

that they did together to look at those worldwide academic

programs that were associated with esports. And to say, you

know, how many of these are actually differentiating

themselves as esports academic programs that are truly teaching

students, about esports, about competition about the careers

that they could have, you know, and kind of analyzing, you know,

which which programs maybe just stuck in IE on the front of it

and said, Let's go. So it's an incredible paper, they put a lot

of work into it, they made so many great contacts. And the

thing that I love about it, kind of to what we were saying

earlier, Lindsey, is the fact that it shows, you know, without

a doubt that esports and academic applications of esports

and preparing students for the careers in this field is 100%.

Growing, it is around the world. You know, we are seeing a ton in

the US we're starting to see some in the UK, European

countries as well. You know, shout out to my friends at

University of Twente in the Netherlands, they do some

amazing cognitive performance, like neural networking research

for their esports athletes. So there is a huge growth in the

academic space, both curriculum and research wise, for esports.

And for gaming and players to keep everybody healthy and to

create opportunities for those jobs. And to make sure that

everyone has the skills, they need to go into that industry.

That is so great to hear. And I'm sure if any, any of our

listeners out there are looking for and give a resource on what

universities are doing and inventory sounds like a great

place to start with that in mind that we've covered the real

world. Let's talk about the metaverse a little bit. This is

the metal on my podcast. And Gosh, darn it. We're gonna talk

about the metaverse until someone says I can't. Let's go

for it. I just I just wanted to ask you a little like what the

metaverse means you're XL work in education. So what does the

metaverse mean? As someone who works at a hardware and

technology company? Who is working on real world stuff and

education? What kinds of things are you looking for? Or looking

out for with the development of whatever the metaverse is?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I love the way that you phrase

that Lindsey because I've been thinking about this a lot

because it's it's one of those things that everybody uses it

right? Everybody says Metaverse as a buzzword like, you know,

we're going to start seeing ads for potato chips in the

metaverse just because people want to jump on the bandwagon.

So, um, you know, I love the way that you phrase that as far as

like, what does it mean to me, because, at least in the

research that I've been doing, and you know, the readings and

watching videos and things like that, to me, it seems more like

this concept of the metaverse that we have right now. It it's

not necessarily something new, I mean, gaming has been doing it

for a couple decades, at least, you know, I'm thinking back to

the old, I'm going to show my age here, but like Second Life,

you know, like that, that was one of the precursors to it.

And, you know, World of Warcraft, Everquest you know,

all of these different really immersive, you know, MMO games

and things like that. They were creating this idea in this

concept of virtual worlds where, you know, in those games, you

were working and crafting and fighting and sleeping and

building relationships for a fictional universe and for a

fictional character. And now I think that it's more it's

becoming more a part of the well recognized Zeitgeist that, you

know, is out there in the world today, more people understand it

more people can kind of grasp the concept very easily. So to

me Metaverse right now anyways, is whatever is socially agreed

upon, you know, just just like, you know, history and some other

elements are whatever has been socially agreed upon currency,

you know, that everyone has agreed that that has value and

so we're going to take it and I think when you start to get into

Metaverse and NF Ts and crypto and etc. There's kind of that

sociological element to it of this is what everyone has agreed

these terms and the future of this is an means so, so I think

a lot of it is just society and how society is deciding to view

these things. I do think that there's incredible

opportunities. I you know, my bachelor's and my master's

degree, I got a good portion. Have those completed online. And

so I was interacting in a virtual world talking on

discussion boards, and, you know, doing those things with my

classmates. And so I do think that there's an incredible

opportunity for education, to utilize that to help bring

together not only students that are maybe in different locations

or with different backgrounds, but also teachers. And not just,

you know, I'm your classroom teacher, but I'm someone who

works in industry, or I'm someone who runs a podcast, or

I'm someone who creates art, and to be able to show and to teach

those students, all of those different things. I think it's

an incredibly powerful tool. I do want to make sure that

everybody is kind of walking into it with their eyes open.

Because, you know, with anything, and you know, we kind

of touched on this a little bit, you know, with, with esports.

With gaming, there can be toxicity there there can be, you

know, people who aren't being diverse and inclusive. And I

think all of those things will still be present in a Metaverse

version of our world. So we have to make sure that we're focusing

on how do we create better worlds? How do we actually bring

people together make things more inclusive and diverse, and take

the lessons that we've learned from previous iterations of real

worlds and meta versus, and, and bring that together and make a

better place where people can get along, collaborate, work,

communicate and learn together?

I like that idea of building a better world. I think the best.

Part of the reason why we're covering it on this podcast is

the idea of the metaverse is very new. There's a lot of

people are throwing it out there just to throw it out there. But

the problem is the people who throw it out there, just throw

it out there give us as much attention as the people who are

really trying to build an inclusive and wonderful space.

So if not more sometimes, you know, the early adopters and

things in the early kind of diehards are things really wind

up shaping the space. And I don't want that to happen. We

see that happening with things like, like crypto technology.

And even before that social media technology were the kind

of the early adopters, the early creators, early innovators,

really have had a handle on shaping what that was like, and

it hasn't had the most positive results before, for women, for

people of color for LGBTQIA, or other minorities. So I wanted to

put that out there because on this show, I think it's so easy.

And I'm glad that you took the time to really think about what

it means you I think it's so easy to write this off. Oh, it's

a fad. It's a trend. And it is in some regards. I talked about

it, we're gonna be out it if and when it becomes a huge part of

our daily existence. So I appreciate that. You took the

time to think about it, and that you took the time to evolve that

gaming or you have the kind of Metaverse going on. Yeah,

definitely have to step in

mind, if you don't mind, we'll do like one of the things that I

just, you know, something that you said there made me think

about this, in the fact that they you know, that's why it's

so important to me, for technology companies like Dell

Technologies like Alienware to encourage that diversification

of thought and bringing in those other backgrounds, bringing in

women bringing in people of color, bringing in different

socio economic statuses, you know, just make sure that you

are getting viewpoints and getting ideas and creativity

from all of those different groups. And, you know, we have

these amazing things called our progress made real goals, where

we want to make sure that we're bringing in diversity of thought

we want to encourage all people to apply for these roles and

technology. Because if we don't include everyone in technology,

then like you said it, we're going to just repeat the

mistakes of the past and not have those diversity of thoughts

and opinions and not be able to help bring everyone together

with the amazing things that technology can do. So yeah, I

love that you said that. And it's definitely a driving force,

you know, here at Dell, and especially in the work that we

do with educational institutions.

That's wonderful. I'm glad to hear that as well. Just as a

quick summary, before we move into our last little segment

that I like to do at the end of every show, we talked about how

esports can nd me can teach the learner skills traditional

sports, can also reach nerd typically diverse students or

students that haven't felt disconnected. Help people kind

of find their center community in schools from young age on

which is really cool. He mentioned that there's lots of

good tools out there. i If listeners want to they could go

back and turn backwards. But because we talked about a bunch

of different ones, this is great and that you are off on the

lookout for new AR and VR tools. I agree. I think it's gonna be

really fun. I I'm not necessarily looking forward to

those as a tool to move things forward. I just think they're

going to be Really fun. And I think they're gonna move step

forward, but mostly excited for the fun part. Universities are

getting more interested in in gaming and esports. There's

still different types of uptake. And you're still having

different levels of conversation. And depending on

where the university is that there is lots of good research

out there. Unfortunately, laying down breaks aren't as good as

walking breaks, is just heartbreaking. And one that you

mentioned that I think is going to be really useful is that the

inventory on esports programs, which I will happily link in the

show notes, the last thing we kind of talked about with

building the metaverse and and even in general is that,

including everyone offering diversity of opinion is so

important. You can kind of see the results of what do what not

doing that has yielded us thus far. And I just think we can do

a better job and all have a lot more fun by bringing more voices

completely with you on that. And I'm glad to hear it's a priority

on your end. For our last segment, the moment of

reflection, this is a question that I asked us at the end of

every episode, to try to give you a chance to pause, reflect

back of the things you've done. What is one thing you would like

to tell your younger self about getting into the gaming industry

and being successful.

I'm actually so excited about this because every time I listen

to your podcast, I look forward to this at the end. So, so talk

quite a bit about it. And I think what I would like to tell

my younger self is don't give up and don't think that you won't

have any more chances. And just to explain that a little bit.

Like I said, I was a gamer girl from when I was little I played

Nintendo I played on 3d Six machines, like way back in the

day, you know, all the way up through the super fancy ray

tracing and everything we have now. And so I was very

passionate about it. When I was little I wanted to be a

cinematics artist. And then life happened. I actually I, I got

pregnant in high school, and I ended up dropping out of high

school and I got my GED. And then I went to college and got

my degrees but I wanted to get it in something that I knew I

could support my family. And so I went into tech instead of

gaming, like I was initially wanting to. And so I had kind

of, you know, I'll admit I had kind of written off being

involved in gaming. And then, you know, threw out my life like

years later, you know, a decade or more later, I got this

opportunity to be a Dell as a higher education strategist and

to be the gaming and esports subject matter expert. And so

just because I held on to that passion, it was still something

I was interested in, you know, I kept it close to me, didn't mean

that I had to go away for my opportunities to be involved in

it professionally. And I just needed to find the right spot

where I fit in and I could marry the other skills and the other

experiences I had had in my life with my passion for gaming and

having fun and being a part of this wonderful community. So I

think it would definitely be don't give up. And there's

always new doors and new pathways to explore.

I'm so honored that you chose to share that story. I think that's

a wonderful message. That's that's such a good reminder too,

that it's never too late to start something either to get

back points, or anything like that. I think that there's a lot

of rushing on a lot of ends here. Okay, if it takes you a

little longer. My dad always joked that he didn't find his

career until the 50s. So

sadly, exactly what what is that? You know, there's, I think

Grandma Moses, like didn't start painting until she was like 70

or something. So absolutely, totally agree.

A great, a great method. Thank you so much for sharing that.

And thank you for coming on. Where can people find you if you

want to be found? What tools would you like to share? Love

wants to give you a second to brag about anything you're proud

of or get anything out there that you want the audience to be

a part of.

Thank you so much. Yeah, so definitely can find me on

LinkedIn. I'm Daniel Rourke. I'm a senior higher education

strategist at Dell Technologies. So give me a search. I'd love to

connect and talk. And then I'm also on Twitter at high Ed

Danielle and it's H i, Ed. Danielle, and I post way too

often about gaming and esports. So if you're interested in that,

definitely connect with me on Twitter.

Thank you so much for our listeners. Don't forget to use

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