How is policy towards men and boys developing in the UK, at a time when masculinity is on the agenda more than ever? What is the approach of the governing Labour Party, and what more could they do? And how can we make sure the voices and experiences of women and girls are not sidelined in the process? What is the gendered culture of the UK Parliament like today? And how can men in politics model a different kind of masculinity? Following the huge political upheaval in the UK recently with the appointment of Andy Burnham as Prime Minister, in this episode we talk to Alistair Strathern MP about some of the key policy issues currently under discussion in relation to masculinity and gender equality. These include extending paternity leave, increasing the numbers of male teachers, protecting young people from the manosphere, and men’s role in preventing violence against women. 

Alistair is Labour MP for the constituency of Hitchin, just north of London. He co-chairs the Labour Group for Men and Boys, which is “a campaigning group of MPs pushing the Labour Government to speak to young men and build a better masculinity”. He is a former maths teacher and climate insurance lead at the Bank of England. He’s just been re-appointed Parliamentary Private Secretary in the Treasury, acting as a two-way link between ministers and backbench MPs.

Alistair’s Linktree: https://linktr.ee/alistairstrathernmp

Episode timeline:

• Intro
• Why the Labour Group on Men and Boys was set up (02:31-04:17)
• Labour’s approach to men and boys (04:17-05:34)
• What issues the group is focusing on (05:34-10:45)
• Improving parental leave for fathers (10:45-13:34)
• How to make sure women’s voices and experiences aren’t marginalised (13:34-16:09)
• Men’s role in challenging violence against women (16:09-18:15)
• The discourse on male role models (18:15-21:52)
• The gendered culture of Parliament (21:52-24:50)
• The role of men politicians in offering leadership (24:50-26:25)
• Where Alistair’s passion for masculinity issues comes from (26:25-28:48)
• Men’s responses to the nature and climate emergencies (28:48-31:25)
• Seizing the opportunities of the current moment (31:25-32:59)
• Count Binface and masculinity? (32:59-34:48)
• Conclusion: Policy considerations surrounding men and masculinities (34:48-49:26)

More info: 

• The Spooky Men’s Chorale
• Beyond Equality
• FSB – Federation of Small Businesses
• ‘Building Bridges’: Principles for work with men and boys to end violence against women and girls
• Equimundo
• Mencare
• White Ribbon UK
• Prof Becky Francis
• Harriet Harman
• Prof Steven Roberts

Music: 'Now is time', courtesy of Chaps' Choir and Dom Stichbury. Please note that the transcript is a rough estimation and is likely to contain errors. Please do not reproduce without permission.

Hi everyone, and welcome to Now and Men, the podcast on changing masculinities and challenging norms.

I'm Sandy Ruxton and I'm here with my co-host Stephen Burrell.

Where are you now?

Stephen?

You, you've just been on leave, haven't you?

Yes.

Hi everyone.

Uh, hi Sandy.

Uh, yes, I'm back in Australia now.

Uh, on the unceded lands of the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people who are the First People of the part of Melbourne in which I live.

Um, yeah, I was indeed on holiday recently.

Uh, I was actually visiting a national park here in the state of Victoria called Wilson's Promontory.

And so I got to see lots of Australian, uh, wildlife there, including numerous wombats, um, which was very exciting, as I'm sure you can imagine.

Uh, what about you, Sandy?

How are you doing?

Uh, I'm fine, Stephen.

I've, uh, I've moved house successfully, which was quite a big deal.

And, uh, last night I was singing with my choir, uh, backing the Spooky Men's Chorale.

Uh, and, uh, avid listeners of our podcast will remember that we interviewed Dominic Stichbury some time ago about, uh, men in choirs.

So I've been following that little theme.

But, uh, anyway, in the UK there's been huge political upheaval, uh, recently with the appointment of a new prime minister, Andy Burnham and a new cabinet, new ministers.

So he thought it'd be timely to have our first politician on the show.

He's Alice Strathern, Labour MP for the constituency of Hitchen just north of London, and he's just been reappointed parliamentary private secretary in the Treasury.

So congratulations, Alistair, for that.

Yes, and Alistair won an 8,000 vote majority at the last election, uh, in a typically blue h home counties seat, uh, to continue to represent his community.

Uh, but the main reason we've invited him on, uh, the Now Man podcast is that in parliament, he co-chairs the Labour Group for Men and Boys, which is, and I'm quoting from your bio here, Alistair, a campaigning

group of MPs pushing the Labour government to speak to young men and build a better masculinity.

He's also a former maths teacher and climate insurance lead at the Bank of England.

And I'm pleased to say that like me, he's, uh, currently a very happy, lifelong fan of Aston Villa Football Club.

All the best people are.

Absolutely.

Um, so, so hi Alistair and thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Thank you for having me on.

Thank you.

Um, so perhaps we could just start off just by asking you a bit about the Labour Group on Men and Boys, which you co-chair with Amanda Martin, who's the MP for Portsmouth North.

Um, could you just tell us a bit about why the group was set up, you know, what, what you're seeking to do with it, what you're hoping to achieve and or what you'd like to develop from it?

Absolutely.

Well, I think in the Labour Party we're incredibly and rightly proud of the proud record we've had over many decades now of taking on equality's issues and trying to break down some of the barriers people face to success in their life.

Whether that's class, whether that's gender, and the kind of work we've done around women's liberation and women's kind of role in the workplace, or whether that's race.

I think the Labour Party has been at the forefront of some of the big progresses we've been able to make as a society over the last few decades on some of those.

But I think a few of us were very conscious at at times because of that proud record, and particularly the fact that there's so much more to do to break down many of the barriers too many women face in sat still to this day.

We've sometimes been reluctant at speaking to the very particular issues, uh, men and boys can face on their own terms too.

And at a time when some of the worst corners of the internet and more radical voices in politics, uh, potentially preying on that vacuum to speak to young men and boys in this country with very

restrictive views about what manhood should look like and what politics should look like for them.

We think that's a really wrongheaded approach for our party to take.

And we think those causes are as progressive as any other when it comes down to breaking down barriers to opportunities, success and self-realization.

And actually there's a role for Labour and being much more robust in speaking directly to, and addressing some of those challenges on their own terms and in ways that really connect with young men and boys in the country today.

Mm-hmm.

And how would you, how would you characterise Labour's approach now to issues affecting men and boys?

I mean, you, you've said a bit about it there, but, and, and does your approach differ to the approach of other political parties?

I, I, I certainly hope so.

I think what I'm really encouraged by the fact is that we have an approach, full stop.

Right?

Right.

A few years ago, the idea of a Labour prime minister holding an international men's day reception at number 10 would've felt quite fanciful.

But actually last year, Stan was the first prime minister ever, Labour or otherwise, to host an international men's day reception, to bring together fantastic groups from men's health organisations to role model groups

to male educators, and talk about the really important work they were doing in their communities and how as a government we need to do better sometimes at noticing it, understanding the issues they're seeking to address, and

delivering, you know, through the arms of the state, good central solutions to support some of those problems too.

And the work that we are now starting to do and the run up to hopefully a summit later this year, to build out, I guess, what a progressive government led offer looks like to men and boys.

Growing up in Britain today is really exciting.

It's been a big part of what we've been asking for as a Labour group and something I'm keen to see delivered in and as ambitious way as possible Now.

And, and what issues do you think should be prioritised?

I mean, I know there's, there's activity already around, uh, NEETs so-called, uh, those who are not in education, employment or training.

Um, but I think you've also got interests around fatherhood and care and paternity leave, um, and education relationships.

I, I wondered if you wanted to say a little bit more about some of the things that you've been interested in.

Absolutely.

So a, a as a group, we, we've kind of divided the work we do into kind of four or five key lenses that we think speak to some of the specific gender challenges, um, that men and boys can be facing in Britain today.

One of those, as you talked about is, is work.

And when we talk about the NEET problem, there's quite a strong gendered element to some of that.

We haven't seen, uh, the number of young men entering the workforce renormalize since COVID and the way we have more so with women.

And so thinking about some of the gender barriers to men getting into work, some of the industries that typically men will have looked for, um, for those first careers and the way in which those have declined in parts of the

country, but also trying to reset the, the young men an idea of what the right careers for them might look like.

It's a real shame in this country at the moment that we don't have a particularly gender balanced workforce when it comes to youth work, when it comes to teaching, when it comes to healthcare professions, those

HEAL professions that, um, others talk about and thinking about how we can get more young men into those is not just a great opportunity to provide better role models for young people, um, in those youth settings.

It's also a great opportunity to break down, I guess, some of the perception barriers about what careers might be available for, for young men growing up in Britain today.

So that's work education.

We know, obviously we are, we're very keen to kind of provide more positive role models for men, um, through education and new settings.

And that's been a, a big part of our work given all of the evidence about how positive male role models are particularly important for, for young men growing up in Britain today.

Um, given the extent to which they look to them sometimes as a sense of what being a man should look like in Britain today when it's such a contested topic.

Alongside that though, there were very particular, um, barriers to male achievement that we're keen to see broken down too.

If you look at a lot of the education data, whether it's um, literacy rates, whether it's progression in early years, there's quite a big gender gap in terms of performance levels.

And so making sure that we've got a political system that's conscious of those.

Understands the driver of those and then keen to address them.

And its policy making is a big priority for us too.

And then the third strand of, of kind of education, where it then bleeds into the, the kind of relationship work we do too, is ensuring that we're creating spaces in, in schools to really good and effective

conversations about healthy understanding and attitude to gender relationships, um, and contempt them.

We, we are very aware at the moment that obviously the advent of social media has brought forward many positive, uh, opportunities for young people, but it's also put them in touch with people who've got

quite extreme views sometimes about what being a man should look like, what that should mean in terms of how they approach relationships, what the dynamics for different genders should be in relationships.

Those are obviously completely wrongheaded, but we don't always do a very good job in schools at creating spaces for young people to explore why that might be the case.

And giving them the platform and I guess the confidence to start to define on their own terms what healthy attitudes to genders and relationships should look like for them.

We are lucky enough to partner with fantastic groups like Beyond Equality, who do really good strength-based conversational work in schools already on this.

And I think learning from the great work that's already gone, going out there, providing a platform for it in Parliament, and then bleeding that into the

government's work around curriculum and PSHE reform is gonna be really important.

And then as you mentioned too, I think trying to reset kind of male attitudes to caregiving and family life we're, you know, at the moment in a really unfortunate position in this country where we're obviously very keen

to try and break down gendered aspects, the caregiving and parenting, but the, the imbalance between men and women and who takes on those caring responsibilities is hardwired into our parental leave system at the moment.

It's much more, um, likely and encouraged by the state in terms of your entitlements, um, for women to step back from work during those crucial formative early months and look after, uh, a, a new child than it is for a dad to be around.

And that's, you know, there's a whole host of kind of social and personal reasons for that, but it's also something that's very much hardwired into, into those entitlements.

And the fact that we've got some of the worst paid and supportive paternity leave entitlements in the UK at the moment is something we're, we're very keen to, to put, right, because not only is it the right thing

to do, it's also something that all of the evidence shows in Europe and then those parts of the states have of the way on this actually can play a really crucial role in breaking down those gendered barriers too.

Unsurprisingly, when you give new doubt, more time and more support to be there for their kids early on in life, they want to do it.

They form better bonds and they're more likely to be taking on caregiving roles in the home years later too.

And so breaking down those perceptions through all of the levers we have from education to entitlements, I think is something that as a group we are really keen to, to lead on.

Thanks for that very good summary of all, all those different areas that you are active on, and I think we, we might like to sort of tease out a little bit more, some of those,

but, um, on, on the one that you just mentioned, the, the paternity leave issue, I, I guess a key question there is what are the main obstacles to actually being able to push that further?

Um, is it that, you know, businesses fear increased costs or, you know, do we think maybe that more employees might end up being contracted and therefore not having employment rights in the same way?

Um, you know, what, what would you see as the main problems for,

I, I guess it's two barriers, right?

It's breaking down perceptions around kind of costs and friction.

Um, but then it is also kind of ensuring that it's prioritised and funded in a way by government, um, right, that truly delivers on its ambitions and makes sure that it's a universally available,

um, benefit and entitlement rather than one that's just a preserve of the middle class.

So taking it in reverse at the moment, you know, we've, we've moved in towards a system of gradual incremental flexibility.

We've got very limited statutory paternity leave rights in the UK at the moment, and it's just at statutory paternity pay levels, which is well below median earnings.

And so it tends to be, um, just those who've got high levels of income or high savings to fall back on that can afford to take it.

We've supplemented that so far with an ability to share parental leave, so to lose some of that better paid entitlement that mothers will often have and enable that to, to enable more dads to take leave.

But again, that's at a very low pay level and so unsurprisingly, it's really only the highest earners that have taken up that so far, which explains why, why uptake is so low.

And so if we're going to have an offer that genuinely moves the dial in a way that supports families right across the uk, whatever their income, but also genuinely helps to reset those gendered norms

around caregiving and parenthood, it's got to be something that is financially accessible to everyone.

And so it is something that the government is going to have to play a role in, in funding, rather than just creating as a leave entitlement that isn't necessarily financially supported.

There's obviously, you know, business concern too, but actually we've been really encouraged working with employers big and small about their attitudes to it.

We've done lots of work with the FSB, who I think as long as it was financially supported by central government, would be very supportive of something that enables their employees to kind of live those happy, rounded, fulfilling lives.

But we've also done lots of really interesting work with big employers who do already go above and beyond, including a few major supermarkets and the mother, big, big chains where they've seen really, you know, important and positive

payoffs in terms of employee productivity, satisfaction, retention, by giving them the space to be there for, you know, what are incredibly joyous but also quite stressful, formative early weeks and months with their partner.

Something I was wondering, Alistair, um, we met, uh, we met you at the launch of the End Violence Against Women and Beyond Equality guidelines, uh, called Building

Principles for Work with Men and Boys to End Violence against Women and Girls.

I was just wondering, how do you think we can address some of the issues you are talking about, you know, that we can engage with men and boys about these things without, in the process, you know, marginalising women's voices or

experiences, um, or, you know, that that risk of, of men taking over the conversation about gender equality, I suppose?

Absolutely.

And I think it's something we want to be really, really conscious of, right?

Mm-hmm.

Because fundamentally we've got a lot more to do on all of those issues.

And actually there are still a huge amount of gender barriers facing women and the extent to which far too many face violence in their home, in relationships and in

society, um, is right up there with one of the most extreme and egregious examples.

But I think the work is important for two reasons.

One, because it's important of its own, right?

And, and men and boys matter, but also because we're only going to really tackle those issues if we can, you know, take on head on some of the challenges, misconceptions, barriers to,

to men's stepping up and being those strong, powerful, equal allies in society, um, that we know many of them want to be, but don't always feel empowered or able to, to step into.

And it's why a lot of the groups we've started working with kind of came outta that, right?

So Equimundo are a kind of big global charity came outta work to try and crowd more men into, to tackling violence against one of the girls in, in Brazil.

But through their work, they learned that actually if you are, if you're serious about that work, you've got to be serious about breaking down the barriers that exist in society to, to men stepping

into it and actually trying to kind of rethink what manhood should look like with care at its heart.

And their kind of men care campaign is something we're, we're very supportive of, but it's something we are very keen to centre as part of our work too.

But I think ensuring that we're respectful of the huge, you know, a huge barriers, um, women, not just of the barriers that women face life, but the important work that women said organisations have doing, are already

doing and will need to continue to do in this space that we're being very coordinated in how we work together.

And I think those principles, um, that were, that kinda launched at the event that we, we were talking about, there are a really good and important way to start to think about how we can do that, that in a way that builds trust

and kind of builds solidarity across the movement so that they are very much seen as different parts of the same continuum rather than kind of falling into this wrong headed idea that it somehow has to be a, a zero sum game.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I mean, what do you think we as men can do to challenge, you know, the violence of other men against women, for example, I mean, I used to be a trustee for the White Ribbon campaign.

I'm not sure if you've come across that.

Is that a campaign you would support, for example?

Oh, absolutely.

And we, you know, had a, you know, a lovely conversation with its founder actually quite recently to talk about the kind of principles behind it.

And I think one of the things he, you know, was talking to about.

Us about it and it kind of really landed with, I think so much of the work we're trying to do is actually just breaking down men's misconceptions about the social context they operate in.

He was talking really powerfully about some school-based interventions they'd seen and supported and kind of mirrored in workplaces around not needing to remind men that violence against women and girls isn't okay.

'cause most men, you know, already are, are there.

And then some, it's about reminding men that other men feel the same way about those issues too.

And actually, if they do step up and speak out and are strong and vocalised in their workplace, in their community, in their school, not only is that something that's true to their values, which they already

often recognise it is, but it's something that will be welcomed by other men in their setting too.

Because all too often I think a barrier to, to men acting isn't what they think themselves.

It's recognising that that attitude is one and the same of all of their peer group two.

'cause it's not something we always create platforms to talk about.

And actually where they do see men talk about these issues, you know, particularly online, it can often be in very regressive or dismissive ways.

But actually I think finding nights social cues to remind men in their workplace, in their schools, in social settings that actually we all care about it.

None of us really think this is okay and we'll all welcome the moments where each of us step up a bit more and call it out.

And are those vocal supportive allies.

Um, when we do see issues around violence to against women and girls in our communities is, is crucial.

And all the evidence suggests can be really very powerful actually in facilitating and then platforming, um, spaces where men will then start to be those kind of strong vocal allies that we, we want to see.

Mm-hmm.

I wanted to just go back to the notion of, um, male role models, which you, you mentioned earlier, I mean, you know, clearly that's a very common, um, notion of, you know, what's needed for, uh, bringing up healthy boys.

Um, but there are also some other ideas about how children learn about gender.

So gender may be contested in the playground, for example.

Um, and also, you know, the notion of male role model, well who is a male role model?

Is it, is it your dad or is it a rich footballer?

You know, who you're rather distant from.

You know, we need to think about that.

We also need to think about the influence of, of mothers I think as well because they're crucially important in, in boys' development and, and you know, the other way

round probably that, you know, girls benefit from, from dad's, um, involvement as well.

So I just wondered if you wanted to say a little bit more about how you understand the notion of male role models because it, you know, it's, it's a fairly slippery concept, I suppose is my point.

It's worth teasing it out a bit more.

Definitely.

And it, and it's, you know, a hotly contested one-on-one that can be, you know, an easy entry point into a universe of competing ideals that are actually ultimately very different to each other in terms of, of what they see.

And so, I guess starting with a, a negative definition, I think there are some people whose kind of entry pointing to the male role model debate and the importance of fathers is really around.

Occasion, occasionally masked quite a aggressive view about what a family unit has to look like and the idea that in somehow a, a child's life is lessened if a father is not there.

And that it is always right, um, for the father to be an active part of, of a family unit where in fact, you know, a big part of the kind of social progress we've unlocked over the last few decades has been

rejecting the notion that it is always important and always the right thing for families to stay together.

And there will often be lots of very good and very important reasons why actually it is not the right thing for a dad to be in their their child's life.

And actually thinking through, instead, from my perspective, not kind of a regressive, narrow view of, of male role models.

And that's not neglect the importance of fathers.

You know, a big part of why we want to talk about active parenting and caring fatherhood is because we're, you know, where it we, where it is, right?

And, and good for fathers to be present in their lives.

We want to help platform encourage and support them to step up and play that role in an even more active and present way.

But in those worlds where it isn't possible and isn't right, actually thinking about socially how we can all provide those kind of positive male role models, um, for the young people in

our society, in our school setting, in those youth groups in our community is so, so important.

And I think that kind of social constructs of kind of male role models is the lens we, we come from.

But you're absolutely right.

You know, the value of men kind of modelling positive characteristics.

It's positive attitudes around gender positive caring interactions with women in their life isn't just important for young men.

Though it's often particularly important for young men given some of their own barriers and, and the, you know, all, all of the evidence about how limited some of their

kind of exposure to those kind of portrayals of, of masculinity can be otherwise.

But it's really important for, for women to see that too, right?

And ultimately, if we are going to break down kind of a gendered ideas about how men and women should behave, how they should interact with each other, the types

of work men and women should do, we don't just need to break that down for men.

We need to break that down for everyone.

And in doing so, create a society where actually we're much better able to just see each other on our own terms and our own values rather than through these kind of particular frames and, and lenses.

Talking about role models and like the influence of public figures.

I, I was wondering about your experience of being in Parliament really, um, which has obviously changed a lot over the decades, but I think there's still a lot of talk about how it is quite a gendered culture in, in Parliament.

I mean Yeah.

How have you found that yourself, would you say?

Um, yeah.

Oh, it definitely can be in, in whole hosts of ways and I think, you know, one of the things I'm very privy to is the fact that most of my exposure to that isn't

direct as someone who is often kind of on the historically more valued side of, of that split.

But it's actually through conversations with my female colleagues and the way in which some of them have been asked, you know, which MP they work for and issues like that and questions like that,

which is, would simply never be based with me even as a relatively young, um, man in parliament.

So I think it is definitely somewhere where, where some of those regressive attitudes and I guess regressive gender frames still are present.

Um, I think the thing that gives me hope and encouragement is the fact that I joined Parliament as such a, as part of such a big energetic cohort of, of Labour mps who really care about this issue are really live to it and I think aren't.

Willing to tolerate a kind of slow pace of progress on it anymore.

And the way in which I think we're all finding ways to be allies to each other and speaking up and calling out, while we do see some of those gendered aspects playing out gives me great hope.

Still a long way to go.

Right.

You know, I don't wanna claim that, that we're anywhere close to a silver bullet, but it's a, it's an energising team to be part of, and one that I feel a great sense of joy in, in kind of working with, on, on issues like this.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I did some interviews some time ago for the History of Parliament, oral history project, you know, and that's, that's mainly with politicians who are at the end of their careers or have left parliament and some of the

stories coming out there from, from, you know, those interviews are quite shocking about behaviour in the past.

And, and so, you know, I take your point that, that actually there has been huge amount of progress and, and even just in, in terms of representation as well, I think, are we on about sort of 45% women, 55% men in the UK Parliament now?

And that's a big, big change over, you know, a relatively short period of time and, and you know, I guess some of the sort of fa more family friendly arrangements, I'm not sure there's, as you say, there's a lot more

to do, but, uh, mps like Harriet Harmon did, did do a lot of work around this, didn't they, over the years.

Oh, definitely.

And while obviously, you know, we still rail against sequestration that we, we still find there.

I think we're all, we all feel very lucky to get to serve at a moment where, you know, we are, we're building off a tremendous amount of good work that's already been done by some, some real trail braces before us.

And Harriet is obviously right up there.

I think that for many of us, in terms of politicians who've really recognised the kind of centrality of attacking that issue and are not shied away from calling it out, from working on it, even when it

all wasn't always the most popular or politically expedient thing to try and drag the conversation to.

And do you think that, 'cause we were talking about role models and leadership, like what role do you think politicians have to play in that, you know, if we're thinking about masculinity, because I guess, you

know, you don't have to look very far, unfortunately to find some quite, you know, potentially harmful examples of leadership, you know, from men across the world or indeed, you know, um, in UK politics at the moment perhaps.

Do you have any thoughts about that?

About, you know, what role you think politicians, men in politics have about setting an example?

Oh, absolutely.

No, we, we, we are I guess one of those socially present role models who've got that responsibility as much as every, any other.

And I think ensuring that we're not perpetuating kind of harmful.

Visions of kind of manhood and masculinity nor falling into tropes in terms of the way we talk about kind of manhood and what male success should look like, um, in 21st Century Britain is, is really, really important.

But then I think also, you know, as progressive politicians, we've also got that responsibility sitting behind the rationale of the Labour group of men and boys to speak to and feel comfortable talking to these issues too.

To not shy away from them, to not think that they're somehow not progressive causes and of their own right.

And to not seed that platform to maybe some of those politicians who do have more aggressive, narrow reviews about masculinity, about what success would look like for man and about

kind of gender and the way in which relationships should function in a modern society.

And not giving them the space to just have those conversations on their own, but actually feel confident enough and empowered enough, um, to take on that kind of progressive argument about why, why these issues really matter.

I'm so impressed by your commitment to this issue, Alistair and I, I'm just sort of wondering where, where that's come from for you, you know, because I

mean, were you just born at the right time or, or, you know, I think did you have a

It certainly helped.

Sorry.

I, I think it has certainly helped to have come, come of age at a time when these, you know, there was already progress being made on, on some of these issues.

I think probably thinking back to my time in teaching and the way in which I think I was very aware that my kind of presence as a male teacher was particularly

important for some of the most disaffected young men that I was working with.

And actually how important the connections and the relationships I was able to build up with some of those young men were for kind of helping to get them engaged, not just

in my lesson, but also kind of in their own kind of journeys of self development too.

And that definitely carried into my kind of experience as a local counsellor when I was in charge of children's services and, and looked after children.

But I think also kind of building all that experience and, and then kind of finding itself in a, in a kind of a slightly frustrating space of a seeing, you know, some of the more extreme corners of the internet and

politicians, um, talking to these issues and progressives not, and also I think seeing some of the shallowness of some of the discourse that was provoked, um, by some of the kind of more cut through moments touching on it.

So whether it's Adolescence , the Louis Theroux documentary, it definitely feels like, you know, we set up the Labour Group for Men and Boys at a time when some of these issues suddenly were being thrust more into the spotlight.

But I think all too often it felt like the discourse around it could be very shallow, a bit superficial at times, and, and not really particularly introspective about some of the driving factors behind it, nor particularly

mobilised towards what the policy solutions should be to the problem we're trying to tackle other than just kind of reviling a the kind of issue and recognising that there, there clearly was something bad going on there.

And so I think a, a desire to ensure that we made the most of this spotlight, drove it into solutions that really matter and leveraged the really good, rich practise of work that is going

on out there in so many of these spaces already with some of the groups that we partnered with.

I think probably sits behind the, the motivation for setting the group up when we did, and why I think it's been such a kind of strong start to its existence.

Um, in terms of the impact it feels like we're already starting to have in, in terms of driving conversations in Westminster.

Mm. Well, I mean we're, we are aware as well, a so that you, um, you have a strong commitment around addressing the nature and climate emergency, which is something we feel very strongly about as well.

That was the area you were working before you entered politics.

Do you think that, are there any, you know, do you think men have a particular responsibility there?

Do you see overlaps, um, you know, for example, perhaps there's some evidence that men can be a little bit more resistant to climate action, for example?

Um, yeah.

Is that something you've, you've given much thought to?

I think potentially there is probably something in ensuring.

And it, it is true across everything, but I think climate calls out an area where it is kind of particularly under explored at the moment.

Thinking through where there are big gendered gaps in attitudes to policy areas rather than just despairing at those and kind of waving our hands at them or noting them and moving

on actually being really politically and intellectually curious about why that might be.

What that tells us about how people think about the problem, think about themselves too in society at the moment, and what we need to do, I guess, to kind of reshape people's narratives around it.

And I guess, you know, it's not why we do it at all actually, but I would hope that, you know, one of our, one of our goals around creating a more caring conception of manhood, men who are more involved in their family lives,

more involved in looking after their children as active parents, grandparents, uncles, kind of social parents in the wider community, and the poster ties the future generations that maybe creates, is maybe a, you know, may,

maybe a positive spillover effect of that will be a slightly greater connection to some of those intergenerational concerns that I think sit behind a lot of people's core conception, uh, of kind of the risks of climate change too.

Um, it's absolutely not why we do it.

Um, but I think it, you know, I, I could see a, a world in which that does end up being a, I guess, a positive side effect of, of, of some of the work.

But I think the, the point you speak to is an absolutely valid one, which is as politicians sometimes, and we see gendered gaps in terms of how people respond to different policy issues.

We need to be much better at progressives that not just kind of taking those as accepted facts or somehow kind of necessary truths, but actually being curious about what the social factors are

that sit behind them and shaping our policy, our comms, and our politics around tackling that.

Mm. Yeah, and I mean, I, I think, you know, in terms of challenging ideas of masculinity, I guess you can point to men who do really engage in care for the

environment or for animals as, as perhaps doing that in, in one form, for example, can't you?

Oh, definitely.

I was just thinking, well, we're co we're probably coming to our, the end of our time, so I, you know, I think perhaps I just wanted to thank you for spending time with us, really.

And I'm, I'm aware that you, I, I think you've been reappointed as a parliamentary private secretary in the treasury, is that correct?

I have indeed.

No rest for the wicked.

So that's, so that's, and that's effectively a sort of link between, um, ministers and back benches.

And so it's an important role and I think it's sometimes seen as a first step on a parliamentary, you know, ladder towards being a minister.

So, um, I just wanted to sort of congratulate you on that and wish you all the best in your future and, and obviously hope that you will take forward this important work.

Oh, and, and thank you guys so much too for all your doing spotlighting these conversations both on the podcast, but in your, your wider work too.

It feels like we've got a real moment right now where suddenly there is a lot more social and political focus on these issues, but it's so, so important that that drives a action and that

b, that action is driven by a really informed understanding of what the underlying issues are and a good progressive vision from my perspective of where we want to get to with them.

And I think it's conversations like these, the work, I know both of you guys have been leading for some time now, but also a lot of the practise that work with the groups we are, we're working

with at the moment, that give me such hope that there is some real progress to be made in.

Um, and I'm just looking forward to working with yourselves and the whole wider ecosystem over the coming years to ensure we live up to the moment, really.

Yeah.

Well, I, I'm sure we'd like to keep in touch with you as well and you know mm-hmm.

Send you our thoughts on various things as, as and when, so

Yeah, no, and, and thank you so much for, for yeah, for speaking to us, but also yeah, for showing an example to hopefully other men in politics, you know, who can follow your lead and speak out more about these issues.

Um, I did have just one more very quick question, which was just, um, will you be supporting Count Binface?

Uh, does he offer a different model of masculinity in that?

What, what does Count Binface tell us about healthy gender norms?

Discuss.

Well, I, what I think he does do actually is kind of like, for me, it's, it's obviously a, a like putting aside the politics of how just brilliant it is to have such a brilliant, um, showcase of the

ridiculousness of the way in which Farage is looking to shooting at the moment, um, through the by action.

I think he points to, I guess a self-deprecating softness to British kind of character and politics that I think is actually there to be tapped into for a whole wider range of, of pauses too.

Um, so I'm not sure if it necessarily said something about masculinity, but I think it does say something about the social psyche of, of, you know, what makes Britain so great that I

think progressives are our best when we are better in tune with and speak to a little bit more.

So no, I'm, I'm enjoying it and I hope the people have cracked and do the right thing.

Yeah, unfortunately there's 32 candidates now, so I'm a bit worried about the bin face.

Uh, vote being split many different ways.

Oh, dear.

Really loved it.

Thank you both.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Take care.

Bye now.

Bye bye.

So Sandy, it was really interesting to get a chance to talk to Alistair there.

Um, for example, you know, what he had to say about male role models was very interesting, and I'm sure that especially for you, given that's something you've kind of done some research on, um, yeah.

Do you have anything you'd like to say about that?

Yeah, I, I was interested in the issues around schooling certainly, which we didn't really talk about in any, any depth.

Um, I mean, the idea that we need to increase the number of teachers, male teachers at primary and secondary schools, that's been around for a long time and you know, I think there's even been targets in the past.

Maybe there's be targets talked about now.

Uh, I mean, you know, I'm obviously not against that, but I, I do think there is an issue about, you know, is there something distinctive that, uh, male teachers

provide that female teachers don't, you know, and I think that, um, there is research.

I mean, people like Becky Francis have written about this to suggest that, you know, the vast majority of boys and girls prioritise a, a teacher's individual ability as a teacher

and their level of care for students rather than, you know, whether they're male or female.

So, um, whilst in, in one way, yeah, it would be great to increase the numbers.

I don't see that as a panacea.

I think it's really about relationships.

And I was interested when he talked about his own background, he talked about, you know, the relationships he had with his students, uh, and okay, maybe he was

saying there was something distinctive about him being a male teacher in that role.

But actually I would focus on the relationships part of that.

Um, that seems to be the, the most important element,

which does take us back to our last episode with Judy Chu and the importance of relationships in boys development.

Indeed.

Yeah.

And I guess it's, it's hard, isn't it?

Because I, I do think there is a risk that it becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it?

That if we create this idea that boys will only listen to other, to other boys or men or, you know, boys will only read books by men or about boys and men.

You know, if we, the more we talk about that, the more it feels like that is, that has to be the solution.

Um, but actually as you said, sometimes the evidence doesn't necessarily point to that.

Um, so that is interesting.

What else did you think about?

Uh, about what he had to say?

Oh, well, another thing I thought was interesting was that he, he didn't use the language of crisis around masculinity, which, you know, I thought, I thought he might.

And obviously this comes up a lot and, you know, from, uh, the perspective of, well, historians that we've actually interviewed like Lucy Dela, you know, um, there's always concern about supposed crises of masculinity,

you know, at the end of the 19th century, before the war, during World War I, you know, you can point to moments in, certainly in the UK history where people were concerned about, uh, what was happening with boys and men.

You know, I think some of this is just anxiety about social change, really.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it's the state of the Labour market.

It's concerns that men may be losing power and status to, to women, changes in the family, you know, sexual politics, the rise of, of, um, you know, gay and lesbian and, and, uh, trans lifestyles, you know, all of these kinds of issues.

There's a whole mix there, which impacts on, on masculinity and, and that's, you know, that is about social change really.

It's not necessarily a crisis, but he, he, I think the way he put it was quite good.

I mean, he talked about it as if, you know, this is a moment where we can actually make some positive changes and we should choose.

We, we should take that opportunity and, and run with it.

And it is hard to disagree with that as a, as a basic approach.

I think.

Yeah, it makes me think of, um, you know, Raewyn Connell, another person we've on the podcast before, you know, she has this notion of, uh, crisis tendencies, you know, the, the

kind of gender order as she calls it, I suppose, you know, patriarchal societies, it as kind of subject to these crisis tendencies because, you know, they, they are inherently quite contradictory.

I know they don't, the system doesn't actually work very well for a lot of people a lot of the time.

So it's inevitable that, you know, periodically the instability of that system will start to become more and more clear.

And I guess you could say that we are in one of those moments right now, which as you said, definitely seems like a good opportunity to, to try.

Well, and there are, there is just so much more discussion at the moment, isn't there about issues of masculinity.

Absolutely.

So it is such an important time and so it is good to see politicians like him are actually trying to, you know, intervene in positive ways in those discussions.

Mm, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I guess, you know, also there, there is a, a tension between, you know, uh, a sort of backward looking approach to, you know, reinstating, um, men's centrality and power in the, in the family

and society generally, and a more progressive approach, which recognises the, the advances that, uh, women have have made and celebrates that, and, you know, looks to, to a more equal future, I guess.

Yes.

And maybe something I think about a lot with my research on climate change, you know, is that maybe sometimes men can be a little bit less flexible to social change, you know?

Mm-hmm.

I feel comfortable adapting to it, um, because obviously something like climate change demands huge social upheavals, but maybe for men for, you know, if society is working a little bit

better for men as a, as a group as it is, then maybe embracing change can feel uncomfortable.

Um.

But it was good to hear him, uh, recognise the, you know, that there is a need for, for gendered for gender to be taken account across all sorts of different policies, including around climate change.

It was good to him recognise that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I was just thinking whilst you're talking about, um, the notion that's been promoted by Andy Burnham about reindustrialisation as well, you know, um, and just in, in relation to the point you've made about

adaptability actually, that, uh, certainly there was, there was an idea around, say the sort of 1980s when the mines were closing, shipyards were closing, um, particular effects in certain parts of, of the uk,

um, that, you know, men really only wanted to do those kinds of, you know, heavy industry jobs, really.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but I think I'm right that Steven Roberts has done some work on this Yes.

And suggested that actually, you know, there are a lot of working class guys who are adaptable to working in the service, uh, sector, which has obviously had a major increase over, over, you know, uh, many years.

Um, and so, you know, that that kind of, um, suggests there is some potential for, for shifts and change for young men as well as, uh, uh, young women.

Totally.

Yeah.

And it is interesting, isn't it, because I do sometimes think that some of the issues, you know, that people point to when they talk about struggles that men and boys are going through, um, you know, it's a lot of that does tie in.

Obviously there are, there are real issues with, when it comes to these constraining masculine gender norms, as you know, which is what we talk about all the time.

But, but a lot of it is connected to economic inequality, isn't it, as well.

Um, you know, so for example, struggles in education or struggles to find a sense of meaning and purpose, you know, if there are a lack of decent jobs out there.

And it is interesting, isn't it, that maybe implicitly a lot of the policies of Andy Burnham are actually kind of maybe trying to address some of those things.

So he is placing, as you said, quite a lot of emphasis on kind of reindustrialization, he's got policies around NEETs, like people not in education, um, employment or training, which potentially could help.

Um, but it, it's interesting that there hasn't been much emphasis perhaps on that redu.

Is that reindustrialization gonna be green jobs?

Is that good for the environment or not?

Um, about is it addressing climate change at the same time?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and we've written about this Stephen, haven't we, you know mm-hmm.

About, uh, uh, the need for some of those green jobs and the, you know, a programme of, um, uh, insulating all the houses in the UK mm-hmm.

For example, and, and you know, a workforce that could, could do that.

I mean, that, that would.

Uh, provide, uh, quite a lot of employment and, and without going back to sort of, you know, shipbuilding mining nature of, uh, uh, industry, uh, and going along with that, um, uh, uh, people like the women's budget group have

talked about the need for, uh, improvements of opportunities and status and, and salaries in the care sector.

And actually that's obviously a, a sector that Andy Burnham has talked about a lot in the past.

Yeah.

You know, particularly social care for the elderly.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, it's, it's interesting that it feels like there, that this is a bit of a moment where things could shift in, in a positive direction.

Yeah.

I mean, obviously it's very, very early days.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I suppose the other thing I'd say about is, is that.

Coming back to one of the things you said earlier, Stephen.

Uh, there are many mainstream government policies.

So the benefit system, welfare reform, criminal justice, you know, these have tended to be shaped implicitly around men masculinity as the norm.

You know, uh, for example, in the benefit system where we've tended to prioritise a male breadwinner, uh, model of sort of full-time, long-term employment and, and also in, in relation to national insurance, to, to pensions

as well, where the, where, you know, um, other sort of non-contributory benefits, if I can put it that way.

Child benefit living allowances, uh, carers allowance, you know, these have more likely been paid to, to women, but, but generally it's a lower level as well.

Mm-hmm.

So there's something about, um, oh, and I, I'd also add to that by the way, that, that quite a lot of services, so health, uh, social care, child welfare, have largely

been geared towards women, both supporting, but also entrenching their role as carers.

And some of those services have perhaps struggled to engage effectively, effectively with men or, or, or not tried to do so, so much, you know, and there are reasons for that, of course.

But, uh, men can be overlooked or, or screened out by service providers.

You know, either they're regarded as too dangerous to engage with, um, or, you know, their importance is, is secondary in relation to, to women.

So, so I suppose my point is that there, there's something about making these gender issues more explicit in policymaking, and it sounds like that's a bit of what's going on, you know, rather than these, these

are just sort of implicitly about, uh, men and women, we, we actually address the gendered aspects.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

I mean, I was also thinking the, another, the example which I forgot about before was, was homelessness as well.

That, you know, to be fair to him, Andy Burnham did say in his very first speech as Prime Minister, that he wanted to, you know, eradicate homelessness.

And, you know, we know that most people sleeping on the streets are, are men.

But equally, I think there is some consciousness as well about, you know, the what reasons why women might be, uh, you know, kind of homeless as well because of things like domestic abuse, you know?

So, so I think it's a good point you make.

Yeah.

The only other thing that I wanted to just mention was, um, was just around, you know, a point Alice made, which I, I think, you know, would've been good to get a chance to discuss it more.

Really, it's just the kind of culture in, in Westminster, in politics, because, you know, I, I think we highlighted, didn't we?

That clearly that has changed a lot, but I, I think, you know, for everything I hear, it does sound like it is still a massive problem, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Not just in terms of the kind of sexism that women politicians experience, you know, in the Houses of Parliament, for example.

Although, I guess a bit, uh, perhaps a, a much bigger issue now, of course, than it has been in the past, is all the abuse.

Women politicians get online.

Um, but also I suppose that what kind of connecting to what you were just saying about the kind of male default, you know, um, so, and in this case, you know, that our assumptions about

leaders and politicians, it's, but very much based on this idea of that being a man, isn't it?

And I think we do still on some level, perhaps feel uncomfortable or don't know how to react when it's a woman in that leadership role.

And maybe women leaders are judged more harshly, you know, or they're not seen as, you know, effective leaders unless they really do act in quite a, you know, quite

a macho way themselves, I suppose, of the kind of a Margaret Thatcher variety.

Yeah, I mean, the reason I'm bringing this up is because, um, so yeah, so I live in the, um, state of Victoria here in Australia, and there's actually just been a change in the state premier here.

So it was a woman, uh, Jacinta Allan, and she was actually kind of, she got the boot by her Labor Party colleagues, um, because she was basically doing really badly in the opinion polls a few months out from a state election.

Um, what does that make one think of?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, quite, I know, yeah, yeah.

That's a lot of parallels to lots of different, uh, situations.

But, but I, I know, and she did undoubtedly have many problems, you know, with, with what she was doing as the premiere, but I do think that she, you know, myself included,

I think, you know, I think we do judge women a lot more harshly sometimes, don't we?

When they do the, you know, the same things as men politicians do.

I think women do often get judged more harshly than the men do.

So I think that is something for us to reflect on really, isn't it?

Is how can we change that?

But it's also, I'm just building on your point, really, it's about the responsibilities of male leaders.

Yes.

And, and actually not just politicians.

We, we are talking about business leaders, we're talking about trade units, we're talking about people with legal profession, you know, and I'm sure this is playing

to one of your strengths, Stephen Sports people as well, you know, sportsmen.

Totally.

And, um, you know, actually we've seen some, some both good and negative, uh, modelling in relation to the World Cup quite, quite recently, haven't we?

Oh, yes, absolutely.

Yeah, we could definitely do a whole podcast episode all about that.

But actually another thing with this, with the, uh, premier of Victoria, Jactina Allan, um, she was, it was also one of those situations where she became the leader in a really difficult situation.

You know, it's the whole glass cliff phenomenon, isn't it?

Where the only time women get a chance to be leaders is if things are in a terrible mess, and then they get blamed for that mess and then they get kicked out, you know?

Um.

But anyway.

Well, uh, well thank you Sandy, as always for the chat.

Um, and thank you as always everybody for listening.

Do contact us at [email protected].

As always, if you have questions or comments, please leave a review for the podcast, um, on your podcast platform and subscribe if you haven't done so already.

And, um, yeah, we'll be back another episode soon.

You're so good at that, Stephen.

I've got it down to a tea now.

I've practised it.

I, you know, I practise it every episode really.

So, you know.

Okay.

Right.

Bye for now.

Thanks so much.

Bye bye.