Last week we complained about everything that is wrong in dating. In this episode we talked about what would be the perfect dating to start a relationship that lasts.

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips.

So last week, we were talking about everything that we hate about dating. And tonight we're going to talk about what would be the ideal start to a relationship. So in breakout, you were talking about what was the best time that you had the best start to a relationship?

Is it OK to start from our group? Just maybe. OK, yeah, I'm just making sure these new headphones can everyone actually physically. Loud and clear. OK, some small introduction. I'm Ali. Was born in nineteen eighty four so I'm thirty six. I was with talking to let me get the name correct Salween Mela and basically for me I'm not third fourth generation British Asian guy. I live my whole life in the UK. But getting down to the whole topic, I think it's all about being platonic.

That was my kind of view. I'm speaking to solid and base it for me like dating. It really depends who you're attracted to. I'm thirty six. I don't mind admitting this. I'm attracted to older women who are older than me, but maybe like up to probably about 50. I would say I would date someone who was 50, about 14 years older than me. I don't mind admitting that, but that's just how I feel. I'm not more attracted to older women.

That's just how it is. But for me, I mean, my view is very simple. Speaking about dating, I've had platonic friendships. It's like you go to the cinema, you have coffee together, all that kind of stuff, and it's gone just to be platonic. It's not going anywhere, like kind of like anything beyond that. You could say that they were a couple of dates. Like I probably went on a couple of dates with those women, but they were around a similar age to me, speaking about dating and whatever.

I think it's just more platonic for me, really. I think it also relates to like who you are attracted to. I mean, like I said some moments ago, I mean, you can't help who you're attracted to. At the end of the day, it just is what it is. But that's it really, to be honest with you, I'm not going to say. But I think for me, I'm more attracted to older women, to be honest.

That's just me. Everybody's different and that's it. That's what I wanted to say. Thank you. But I want to get to my partner, the the other lady who was with me if she wants to speak.

OK, can I just ask you a question about that? What? You said it was platonic. Yeah, it's less pressure on that.

I just. Do you know what a long story short without which you sound like Spandau Ballet from nineteen eighty. Humor that. But I think for me I just find other I've been on a friendship based coffee. I don't know if you'd call it all. I've been on a date. It may have felt like that going to the cinema, but the precious thing I don't know if it existed because I don't ever think I've been in a relationship. I don't mind admitting that I'm just like an open book.

That's it. That's what I wanted to say.

Thank you to anyone else.

I'd say the best start to a date I had was when I was waiting in a bar was kind of empty and this woman came in and had arranged to date with anyway on my profile. So I like fresh photos from Cyprus looking like a Maltese. I was just chuckling. But then we met up in the winter and she came in and she was like, oh, oh, oh, oh. You're right, because you're supposed to meet in some car for a day.

Oh, no. So would you like a drink? So we start chatting and she didn't clock. So that was actually me. So the best start to a date was she dumped me for me, which was awesome.

So the what about the the me that was dumped? Did you not feel a little bit offended.

Oh he was crying into Coco Pops.

OK, so what made that then. So good that one day you and I were going OK, so that is the watershed time.

Yeah that's just about I used to do music at this bar me so I knew the animals so well. We were playing pool, they was like I kalakala bring over drinks for us and I just felt so slept like my collar and then she flipped on me. We were in town just because. Come on, let's go in here. The stone has come on. Come on. It'll be fun, I promise. No. And she dragged me into a strip club so it was kind of awesome.

But then later on, I think we've got a bit drunk. And she actually gave me a dance and then we got the kicked out because you can't do that because she wasn't a staff member. So that's why that day was so good. But no, it was really it was just the connection and the laughs that we had. And so we're going backwards and forwards. So, yeah, I didn't see her again after that, unfortunately. So she's probably on a pole somewhere else.

I if it's right in. Actually, fifty three, probably older than everybody, had a great date, and I think the thing most is that I met this girl, went four for lunch, and I remember we were there for like two and a half hours and it didn't feel like it. And the thing was, is that I was able to connect with her as not trying to pretend to be somebody that I'm not trying to sell to. The thing is, is this a lot of pressure when you're meeting somebody as to try and create that great first impression and sometimes the true use a bit of a cake or something like that.

And I felt I used to be able to be made and we were sort of feeding off of each other. It was that kind of, wow, you are the same as me. Yeah, I think that sort of thing. And it was that kind of I don't care how I feel. I'm that kind of thank God that you sort of put up and you sort of say, this is how I want to portray myself, just goes out the window and I'm just calm myself and being able to be authentic with somebody who was made it for me a really great diet.

You know, being able to connect with somebody at that level where you're thinking, wow, this person's a really great person and they seem to like me.

You know, I don't want share. And mine was my last partner actually, in that we were speaking on the dating site, but we did like each other because it felt kind of platonic as such. That just friendly, I guess at first weren't speaking that long. And then it turns out that he'd come to my city at the time and it's just say I'm in the city and I'm free. And I was like, well, not so. We met up for a drink.

And because he got lost in the city by the time I found myself out and he said with the ice as well, that was just taking the piss out immediately upon meeting. And it was just easy. And it was kind of a no, I don't know. Yeah, it did feel quite authentic and less pressured because it just felt more I mean, we did like each other. There was a connection, but he kind of just felt more friendly at first so we could just be ourselves and no pretenses.

So, yeah, which is easy.

All right. Before we move on, the other side of that coin is what was the best relationship you've been in?

I'd like to share. My my best relationship, I think, was the last relationship that I had, and it was the best at the very beginning because. He was just everything I. Wanted, and he made me feel that I was everything that he wanted and, you know, there was lots of chemistry and it was all wonderful until until it was the best. Until it was the worst, if you know what I mean. It kind of went south.

And actually, you know, all the things that he became kind of talking about the future and everything was rosy. And then he had some insecurities that were not related to me. He was in the military and related to that. And, you know, all his all the things he was kind of promising about my about our future were, I think, just and an ideal his kind of what he wanted and what I wanted. But actually, it just it just didn't.

I do know the term love. I felt love bombed. I felt like, you know. Yeah. Let's let's get get married. You know, you look at schools around this area for the kids and all this kind of talk, and then it changed suddenly and he would just become very distant. And I don't I don't take it personally. Well, I mean, I did at the time, but, you know, it was all about his kind of mental health issues and he had a lot of stuff to work through.

So was the very beginning. It was the best until it changed and then it was the worst. So I don't know if that makes any sense.

So it does it makes perfect sense. And it's perfectly illustrative of something we're going to talk about. So thank you for sharing that. OK, it must have been so disappointing, though.

Oh, really, really disappointing. But, you know, I'm glad that I kind of escaped and and it stopped then and didn't continue into a longer relationship with even more heartbreak. So, yeah, I've healed from that now. So it's all good.

Yeah. OK, thank you. No one else.

I'm still waiting to find that one experience, I haven't had it yet.

Carl did say that the OF is working now, OK?

Oh, God. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Dude, you have to go through before you get the prince. And I'm still kissing some frogs, it looks like now. But but seriously, I look back now at my my dating profile. And yes, I've been to a lot of dinners, the usual. I've got a lot of flowers. I've had more interesting propositions that the dates that I have turned down rather than having actually experienced that, that's my problem, because the people who come with these interesting ideas for dates are people that have I don't want to be seen with or be in the company for a long time.

So so, you know, personally, I don't want to be seen with you.

Come on. What am I doing? OK. I was explained to this gentleman who was a minister of government of some place, wanted to take me on a private plane to an island, to his villa, for that was the date. And if it is somebody that I like, that will be fantastic. Can you imagine that other people would not be called me. So rest in peace. Yeah. Yeah, no. So that's what I'm talking about.

I've had many such wonderful invitations, but the Romney people all the time. Yeah, I think it was one in particular. I remember I met him in, in, in, in our flight. We had to coming in tonight. So lots of people were around and the new tenants invited always lots of their families, relatives and then you could I but I didn't really find him there anyway. And then one day we decided to go to the soon to be party was in North London and.

And we have this most beautiful kind of connection we carried on talking and the past closed and and then we had to get over the wall and I thought it was just really, really, really nice. And then when we went then we started the relationship that night and it was just very, very sweet. And just like children, we were talking birds language and that. And and it was just really, really listen to the nature of things. And then ended up having one child with him as well.

So that was really nice.

Yeah. Just kind of realized that my best relationship was it was when I was young actually, and it was someone I was friends with. And we developed a really just a really beautiful friendship. And I realized in in recent years that that was probably the only person I actually really, truly fell in love with and felt that he was my soulmate. But ironically, we didn't actually get a chance. As fate would have it to be able to get into a romantic relationship, because it was a shame.

But I think from that also understood that the friendship, a basis of friendship first is so incredibly important, I think. And to be able to just be our authentic out of them, to see all of the sides to you and accept it as OK.

Thank you for that. And it's the model of really. What is a good relationship, and it's a way of evaluating and a model of of building a good relationship. So we just move this the way. OK, so a good relationship. What distinguishes a good relationship from a bad relationship is really this line is really about above. The line is about freedom. Below the line is about control. So a relationship, a good relationship is a relationship where you're free and about relationships with married couples controlled human.

And as humans, we all want to be free and we don't like being controlled. So someone who shows up with vulnerability with the right kind of partner will create a response of empathy, which will develop a connection with someone who shows up with integrity, with the right kind of partner. Will that be a response of trust which will lead to a climate of freedom presents meaning being really present and curious, being respectful, interested in the other person will lead to appreciation, to respect kindness, lead to the leads to honesty.

The opposite is being guarded, being, which will lead to when you feel that you have to guard who you are. There's this feeling of shame and that disconnection and kind of related to that, if you if you can't show up, if you don't feel good about yourself, you need to be something that, you know, there's going to be more deceitful if you want something that you don't feel that you can get from just being genuine and asking for it.

And there's deceit, which leads to a response of doubt and a climate of anxiety. And then the opposite of being present and kind is really having contempt and criticism, which leads to stonewalling and defensiveness, which leads to an atmosphere of hostility and poor communication. So I wanted to show that because I think it's worth knowing where we had and start of a relationship is going to really define the end of the relationship. So when you look at sort of the search and what is like what, when people search, it's kind of like the Google or YouTube.

And if you look at the most popular videos, these are the kind of videos that you signs he'll never commit six behaviors. This came in off first type tips, three traits, all of those kind of feelings that there's something that you have to get right. There's something that if you don't do it right, you're not going to find love. So what we're looking for really in a relationship is a genuine connection between two people. And so when we talked last week, what came up is the worst aspects was people not being themselves socialize, people being fake, playing games with suicide and people being out for themselves, like dating, being transactional.

And I'm really sad and talked about the best date was just natural. And I think that come out also Nicole and Frank, and it's where you can be yourself. And the best relationship or what makes a great relationship is where you can be yourself, be accepted and the other person can be themselves and be accepted.

You have to take a risk to do that, though, because the thing is, is being yourself is talking to one of the points. But that's a trait that many of us are getting kind of from our abilities and that we have to take that risk that should I believe it by being myself or do I play Mr. Cool Guy? OK, go for me, by the way.

Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point, because also what Lorna talked about was when you look at the most toxic relationships, they start so often with someone like a sociopath or a psychopath or a narcissist who has like they have more experience admitting they have more they're smoother, the better presented. They know how to present an image. But what happens is it becomes perfect at the beginning because they know what dream you'll kind of listen and they'll present and project the kind of dream that you want and they'll project that future, but they can't live up to it.

And so do reality like that ends up being the nightmare to the perfect start becomes the nightmare. Whereas when you're just very genuine and honest with each other, what's going to happen? And yes, there is there is a risk because our society is that we generally aren't that open. We aren't that vulnerable. And there's also a risk of someone playing you as in that way. What happens if you're fake at the start is that you get into a relationship.

And sooner or later, the reality comes out. And if you're not what you presented as or if they're not is what they presented as, then the relationship doesn't work. So really, the dating process is getting to the truth of would we work as a couple? And candid to the truth of who are you, really? Did you want to talk on this point? All related?

Yeah, actually, when you say something to my mind, which I realize so often, people do something in order to get the other person. So, like going to the gym, the address you got to say they are really want to get it and when to get it to give up to this task didn't really do it anymore because they failed to get it. And that's what it's failing because the person you get attacked for that sometimes we forget to spend time for ourselves.

We have to learn to say no for the things if the schools in our own appreciation time to spend. Because what's happening? Do you actually do become change and you will hate yourself? What's happening is you actually let your past go and what's happening then they leave you and that's the little people keep continuously doing it, continuously running, I think. Simon Synacthen, nice to describe that. Which one is the best, if you wish. Once a month for one hour, every single night for a day to come on.

The fact that if you do consistently every single day, whatever, because that's the key factor in the lives, she will be always to the question, can you move out from it? That's a little bold in my perspective. Yeah, I was just going to say, when you when you're meeting somebody and you you're looking for a potential partner, you you present your best self. You go you you make yourself up. You you you want to present yourself as attractive and desirable and interesting.

So you you offer all these things about yourself and isn't actually how you want like day to day. I mean they may be real, you might have done lots of exciting things and you might have, you know, lots of interesting things to say. But but day today, you know, that's that's hard to maintain. So does that mean that you're being inauthentic or I mean, I know there's a difference if you're if you're saying I've done this thing and I haven't oh, I've got this bill and you haven't.

That's obviously blatant lying. But when you're presenting the best version of you, which is what we all do. That's you know, it's just that's not how you all day today, is it? And that's the tricky thing, isn't it? Because the other person is doing the same. And I suppose you do you do just have to take that risk. And if you like them, you like them, and then you have a relationship. And then perhaps, you know, that's when you when you discover when you learn about them and they learn about you and you can kind of work out who they really are.

It's just it's just hard to, you know, to, you know, present yourself in a in a true way. I don't I don't really know what I'm trying to say. I'm probably just rambling, but I don't know. It makes sense.

It makes sense. And I'm not going to go, you know, in 30 tracksuit bottoms and, you know, Stijn TESHA. Yeah, on a date, I'm also equally not going to tell people all my worst habits and all that upset about me, which some people do, and they think that's authentic. They say you can be myself and, you know, like it matters what what pictures you pick up is, because it's really when you look at it, it's like if you're advertising a product.

Or the trailer for a film, you don't pick out the most boring parts. So but you showed this film in three minutes, so what you're going to do is you're going to really try and get the essence of the film. And so for you, you want to get give the essence of you, but the early date, nobody's going to get enough of you from a first date tonight. Well, I mean, they might get like they definitely know, but you're never going to get definite.

Yes. Because in the same way that you can see a trailer for a film and how that looks, just my kind of film. And you can watch it. And there was nothing else out there in those clips. But generally a trailer for a film gives you an idea because it's like the kind of essence. So I think it's much the same that you you give someone a taste of you. But a lot of that depends on you, on your self-awareness, of knowing yourself, knowing what you are, because I think a lot of us are kind of in our heads.

We live for our own heads. We never most people hate their own voice when they hear it outside of themselves because we don't hear our own voice when we're normally talking. But we hear everyone else from externally, but we hear ourselves internally. And it's the same kind of thing that without having enough objectiveness of who we are, we can't really give someone a true essence. So I think it's it's kind of giving the polished, shortened version. And then the early voting relationship is about unraveling and going in a little bit more depth.

So it's enough for someone to get an idea, something since.

Yeah, it does. Yeah.

Okay. So I can't remember who was next. Was it K was a very very let the others go first.

Okay.

Vernick, I mean what you were saying earlier, I mean I've had two relationships so the dating at the beginning of the dating, I mean I could see that the personality that they showed me was kind of true. One even took a long time to get together. And it was a beautiful introduction to the dating. But it was like just after a little while we were together and then I saw these other psychological defects. So part of his personality was quite challenging, the first dating.

And then after that, I found out that he was kind of completely different. At the second one was also the same. And and the relationship was like a whole movie. And so many years later, you know, like I've been searching and searching. Why did I go through such experiences? And it came to the conclusion is that whatever experience we get with us dating through a relationship, which our relationship is well or work is really what we need to learn or to adjust to or like you say, about discovering each other.

So, I mean, is it like fate? Yeah, I think so, because if I didn't need that to learn something, I wouldn't have attracted it, because now I'm quite definite that I've changed. And so I won't I try do this anymore, even though I am a little bit afraid that I might. But so for me, the realization is that whatever we have or we create is because there's a point to it and it's quite unique to everybody.

So that's my mobilisations from before, because they were very much I mean, even today, I mean one of them now we kind of talk we like the few things that came up recently was to highlight something that was missing from my learning. And then we we completely merged into understanding and letting go of everything that was nasty, including the relationship, which doesn't exist. But so so at every stage of my life, I feel that that's what's been happening.

So the horrific things before were because I called out for it or something from the past, you know, that's it. So that's what I'm thinking.

Yeah, I was thinking about Lorna was saying, wouldn't it be so lovely if we could all kind of meet in a very natural way over the phrases and testi was a sack of potatoes? You know, the more natural way is nicer. And then through friendship as well, you develop a friendship and then you end up dating. It's it's far more natural and it's nice and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say it's the twenty first century, and I think it's it's just really hard for us to date this way through Internet dating, you know, it's just so unnatural.

But that is the way things are moving on it. I don't know, maybe things will get better, maybe they won't. But somehow we've got to try and somehow get used to it. Really, I suppose.

Thank you for that. You've noticed it for a while. Have like singles out. I didn't like the I think it was after, but you have to get it through.

I would have gone if 9:00 at.

Yeah.

OK, so what's the point I really wanted to get is that we're a species that, you know, we've been around humans in our current form has been around two hundred thousand years. We've been looking up. We've been managed to reproduce. So it's natural. Like there's a natural there's nothing more natural than one human connecting to another. But was complicated as societies become more and more complex. We think that there's a ritual and we've created a story and I've often talked about we have a medieval mindset about relationships.

And so what happens is that becomes distrust. And people feel that there's a game and they need to play, and so all these books and videos and stuff come up and it's like if you don't know the red flags, you're going to get hurt. If you don't know this behavior, you're going to miss out when everyone else is there and. There's this sense that you're competing against thousands of others on a dating site, which to some extent raised, but the other side of it is from what most people want from dating, which is a connection with one of a person.

There's thousands of other like there's literally millions of single people, millions of single people that you have access to from technology. Well, the problem is that in a more complicated society, we have like where all of us have emotions, we have hopes and fears. But what we then do is we mask. We have this social mask that we project. And so we go to work and we want to feel like shit and everything might be going wrong.

Then we might doubt ourselves and in the night with anxiety and all this stuff, but we don't go to work and say. We put we say, oh, yeah, I'm fine, everything's fine. So there's this social mask that we project for. And. This social mask makes us think we're not good enough, it makes us think and so this is where, like all these YouTube videos and books stem from, that we have to have the rules.

We have to have this. But what does that create? What kind of relationship are you going to create if you only reply after three days? If you have to have this way of that, you're going to walk into a bar and in a certain way that if you're going to interact through this particular style, what everyone talks about last week as the problems indicting was these layers of artifice where people just aren't honest about what they want, about who they are.

Or and so where does the lack of honesty that this trust, when they distrust it, creates a more toxic environment, a relationship that starts artificially? At some point that the artificial nature of it has to stop. That's even the point of reality or is the point where like someone has to get real. And yet, until both of you get real, you don't really know. If the relationship were worked. So there's an image that we're presenting and then there's insecurity, and in that gap is the lack of integrity, the lack of vulnerability, the lack of presence and the lack of kindness.

And. So. Because there's so much distrust. And because people have so much anxiety generally about relationships like this, general fear that I'm going to end up on my own and that anxiety makes people feel that they need to be a different act in a different way. They feel they need to be better. And it also creates an anxiety, like, of overinvesting in someone before you really get to know them. Really, I think there's layers to a relationship of first, can we have fun?

Like, I think that's really what a first date is. Can we can we just be together and have fun together after that is about the we care about each other all their emotions. Like, does it go into any depth? And then becomes more of a domestic relationship of do we work together, can we function as a team?

When you say the anxiety, it can. One question in my mind. Do you think that's anxiety or just simply we cannot leave it to our own self. They cannot even stand with our own selves for more than one hour because people like to be busy in order to know, at least in that body, their own thoughts, running away from their own thoughts to people. They can't control it. So what they do instead, they try to run away and they're afraid somebody will know that that's what they see in the last few years.

And I talk to people, everybody worry about their own thoughts and they can't leave them. So I used to say that now these days I can do three five hours meditation if it's quiet at. And I can be OK with myself and myself.

Yeah, I definitely think yeah, I definitely think a lot of people I think it's mostly extroverts that really struggle to be alone. I think there's introverts that can be alone but have an anxiety. I mean, definitely like being alone for a weekend. But I think there's a more general. I think we have tons of housing, we have three real challenges to find a way to succeed or survive, to find a way of blong and be loved and find meaning that we mattered.

And I think the survival of success makes us feel that we're going to end up destitute. The belonging makes us feel like we're going to be alone. And then the it's just a general fear of our lives didn't matter. Yes, there is a general feeling that we need others and a feeling that that alone we're not enough. And that can can cause there's so many people that get into a relationship. Any relationship, because it's better to be with someone than be alone, to have to stand strong on your own feet before, sorry to say, there is a large distinction between running away from loneliness or running towards somebody.

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. Okay, Veronica, you had your hand up and then scrilla, it says you were talking earlier, but it just came to my mind what happened also with those two men, the dating. I mean, I was desperate for something. The first one I was looking for a dad for my daughter because I didn't believe that the one parent is good enough for a child to to to experience fullness and wholeness. So that is what I attracted to show me that really, if I if I demand something of a relationship, see what you're going to get.

And the second one, it was this experience where you say, you know, now I'm going to look for somebody for me, but I didn't love myself. I didn't know myself. And so therefore I attracted somebody to show me this kind of thing. So what you're saying is so true, you know, we have all these things about dating, but also this is what we really desire. If it's not in alignment, we are only going to get what we want.

We are really trying to get, but maybe not in the way that we're going to want it. So let's say, hey, I just want to touch upon those two, the three points you mentioned about being able to have fun together and then caring about each other and to work together. I feel like for the first two points, typically in relationships are works. Couples have fun with someone and you're able to care about each other. But for me, I think is the third point.

What I struggle is do we work together over a period of time because people have different core values and people have different ideas of how life is going to be. But it's very unfortunate that in today's society, when you meet someone that's not the first conversation you have, like what are your long term goals? What's your idea of life or your core values are by the time you learn that you and your partner learn and you discover that you're maybe not on the same path and you're stepping on toes, you've wasted so much of your time, I just feel like that's a pity.

Yeah, yeah. The more honest conversations we can have, the yeah. The quicker I really think dating is really about not trying to make it work, not trying to be like those behaviors that will make someone interested, but just being yourself and seeing if it works then you can't do that. When is artificiality and key, so I hope I'm saying yes, hi, can you hear me? Well, yes, yeah, OK. So I think so.

In my situation it's very complicated because it's all about experience as well. I come from a different culture. Although I was raised in Germany, I was kind of trained from when I was very young to just become a wife. So I had no boyfriend or any physical contact to anyone up until I was married. So that might sound a bit too private, but just for you to understand how it is for some other people. So me personally, I had arranged marriage and I had no prior relationship experience or any contact with any physical contact.

And so it's not about often times when people see me outside, they don't have problems approaching me or attracting men. It's not difficult. But finding that person on the same level or understanding what kind of experience I had was just not necessarily a bad experience. So I'm just more the person. I don't know how to date. I'm not I don't have that experience, but I know other things. For example, what marriage is about, what family is about.

And so that might add some some positives to a relationship as well. But finding that balance is sometimes very difficult.

Okay. Can I can I just ask you a little bit more detail about what do you feel that you don't know about dating that you need to know?

So, for example, I find it very, very hard to to be intimate after a couple of dates just because I, I didn't have that in my mind doesn't work like that. So from when I was very young, I was always told, you need to stay a virgin until you get married. And I am now doing this hook ups or because it is what it is. I mean, if you meet different people, especially young younger men, it's very difficult because they do want to be intimate with you after a second date.

And so I always ask the question, what? What are you actually looking for? If it's if they are looking for something more serious, then fine. So but then I would prefer the friendship and getting to know them first. And like someone else mentioned before, often times that's where it stops and people are not really taking the time to get to know each other and really having that connection with someone. And oftentimes when you end up sleeping with them or you have a hookup or whatever, it is, just that it doesn't really develop from there.

So there's a there's a conflict.

OK, so this is this particular aspect or whether it's something else. But the same kind of dynamic, I think, is the confusion that people have about dating, because dating should be you connect with someone else and however, is most natural, however, works. So you get to decide what you feel comfortable with. So I think you've got from two sides. So first, I would say that there is a cultural difference. I would probably call it dogma, that they say dogma, doctrine that this is how it should be.

So for me, that's not necessarily true to you. And then from the other side, you've got a UNICOR dogma or a doctrine of no, this is natural that we've got. So I think it's about what's really true to you if you want to. Like which which do you believe, regardless of what other people have told you? What do you believe, and I think you get to decide how the relationship evolves because you get to decide the ground rules, because a relationship is between you and someone else.

And I think. We grow up with, say, religion or cultural parents or something will tell us and instill their values. But it may not be as an adult, what we have to then do is decide, do we agree or do we do we not? And equally, the culture like do you change your culture and you move to a different culture? They've equally got their own rules. Now, someone telling you I was cultural? Well, it's up to you.

You get to decide. And so I think this is one of the misconceptions that everyone thinks that there are rules. And there aren't it's a natural process of you connect and you didn't like a relationship, every relationship should be unique because we're we're unique and the relationship is really the space between two people. And that space is unique because even you having a relationship with someone else is going to be a different relationship, there's a different dynamic because that your feeling of different qualities.

So it's really for me, dating and relationships aren't really about what you learn is about what have I been taught that isn't really me. What do I disagree with? What am I doing? Because I think that this is the way it has to be. So, yeah. So, yeah, I think that's where a lot of people find dating harder than necessarily has to be forgot. Who is next is Ali's got her hand up, you know, give me a second, I'll put my video on you and everyone hear me.

We can.

Trying to put my body or just taking my headphones off. Yeah. I mean, look, I'm going to go a little bit left field here and just say this. I mean, I started like going to the gym and stuff and not working out and doing all that kind of thing just to make myself like feel even better for myself. But the irony is today, to give an example of like speaking to people I knew, the personal trainer, we went on the cross trainer.

That was four of us. And when I'd left the gym, I just basically said, oh, did you enjoy this gym session? How was your day? All the best. And I'll see you. I'll see you when I see you. So there's even that small there's even that small amount of like conversation, to be honest. And I really, you know, at the end of the day, it was good just to kind of get a workout.

But again, with regards to this, this is going to sound a bit left field. I just think it's wonderful to have somebody to talk to. I know this sounds like very, very Leitchfield. We speak a lot about loneliness, going deeper, about loneliness. I mean, I feel lonely. I have the strength to admit that I can I can feel lonely. There's a lot of people out there because I feel lonely, not going to admit it so I can actually be honest and an open book and say, OK, I do feel lonely.

I'm out a lot, meeting different people, going to the gym. But the irony is, OK, again, going last and then I'll keep quiet. I'm just for me, everyone's looking for something different. I'm just looking for somebody to talk to. That's it. That's really it. That's what I'm going to say. Thank you.

Now, I think that's that's perfect. I think that's really what it's about. It's about if we connect people and we can connect openly and honestly sooner or later, one of these people is someone that we want to go deeper with. I think that's that's really the process, Sabila.

I was just going to say that I agree with Ali, I feel like for me it's about the little things and it's about being able to come home for someone, because everyone I work with in work have partners and they've built an empire together, whether it be a house or a family life. I always feel like a misfit in that environment. So I feel like I definitely agree with Ali on this about the little things, just sharing life, sharing the Netflix together, etc.

.

Now, if we move on to talking about what would be an ideal start, I think really. What we the process really is. We need to we need to be able to encapsulate enough of ourselves like the true essence of ourselves in a way that we can get attention. So this is going to be your best face because it's genuine, but it is like. Obviously, everyone understands when you're dating or that that you is the most polished version, which is like the trailer of the film.

And it's really so I think really you'll like your profile should really be about something I care about. So it gives people a taste of who you are and then the next thing is about connections. So if you come along and you see someone else's and if you see what I care about, but all you send the message or they send a message and it should really be about. Connection is something that we care about because it's the commonality of what you care about, what they care about, which the space in between is, where the connection is, is what are you both interested, what you share.

And we all share something which is like humanity. And then the people that we share most with other people that we most we feel most affinity for. And in the early start to dating is really about curiosity and interest. It's understanding someone and just kind of a little bit deeper of what makes you tick. What do you like? Why do you like that and all of those kind of things that help you understand. So if the dating profile is the essence, it's really understanding the recipe, understanding the structure of that essence.

And then if that does develop and it's really into a more domestic relationship, which is about having care and concern, which is Civita talked about that being partners. And then from there, it's really about evolving together. And I really like what Verrone said about alignment. Because I think all of it, you know, I've looked at. What a relationship is really about and what is conflict really about an area that I've been interested in and happiness, what is happiness really about?

And it's really about alignment. Happiness is really about aligning with the reality of life. Relationships are about aligning with someone else. And conflict is about getting the essence of. What someone wants, what you want, what they want and developing, evolving a your understanding, your awareness and so that you can only call.

Yeah, that was all really solid advice, and I appreciate that. I just wanted to kind of throw in a different dimension, which may or may not be useful, and that is that sometimes, regardless of how bad it is on paper, there's just this incredible chemistry with somebody and this goes beyond words. And sometimes you might not even get on as friends or like have a shared way of being in the world or even the way you talk or your socioeconomic background, how much money you came from or where you were born in the world.

But there's this kind of extra factor that can make something exciting and almost electrical and that can sometimes go beyond the standard, sensible, logical protocols. I will just say, though, to counter that, that some of these things don't always last, but there is that extra Zionistic and key.

And that really brings me to a point when I was talking to someone like in response to in my esteemed dogma is really something that I talked about some time ago, that there is this kind of poff from who we are naturally like who we are born, who would we be? Free of the culture that we were brought in, free of the experiences and free of the observations that we've made, so like you often get people who struggle in relationships because they've had bad relationships.

You'll get people who struggle in relationships because their early experiences mean that they have an anxious or avoidant attachment style, which then plays out in their relationships. So. The three things that sway us off our dogma, by which I mean where we told something is right, which you may not be right for us. And then the point calmly reminded me of that. And that is sometimes we can get infatuated with someone and we can have this great lust and excitement which can make us fall deeply for someone who isn't right for us.

And while all those chemicals and while that is kind of like our biases are going to sway us, of course. And so lust and chemistry can sway us. And then the other one is. What we don't know when we're in relationships and even later in relationships, something that we haven't come across, we might not know. It doesn't work for us. And so we can be with the wrong person because in some way someone's told us what I would call dogma.

In some way. Someone's told us someone is right. In some way, our emotions or hormones lead us astray or what we just don't know about ourselves. Okay. So I think it might be a good point if we break off into smaller groups so that we're able to discuss how that how does that relate to you? How does that relate to your faith in general? What can you use from that? And what of your how will your experience inform that?

The part I didn't I forgot to say was really about, I think the structure of the dynamic of social media or social media dynamic dating apps is that. Dating apps are particularly the popular ones, a mass consumer product, and when you sell something like a mass consumer product, you have to sell a dream or you have to sell the hope of you have to appeal to what people really want. What people really want is a dream. Is the dream that they're going to meet the one and this one person is going to magically make everything work, and the disappointment that people have is when that dream doesn't come true, because in the end it becomes this, it becomes disappointing.

And the problem is that everyone's been told the dream. And so people kind of walk along as if and it's kind of presented on a dating app that people are there for you to kind of pick out. And that's your call. And so what happens is people have lists, the shopping list of what they want and that shopping list. So the person on the other end feels like a product being bought and sold. It feels commoditization. So. What we're looking at is.

Dating sites and dating apps are the best way of connecting. It's the best access to connect to someone if you can use it differently. Then. If you have a process that works for a deeper relationship, then you can use that, whether it's a dating app or whether it's someone you meet outside. So I'm interested to hear what discussions that you had of of how how the dating process could be smoother and better for you. You want to have any interesting ideas?

If people want dating more than one person at the same time, be helpful?

Yeah, I totally agree with Kate that you should the app should be designed so that when you connect with somebody that you know, because they actually say to you, oh, you just received a message and then you go to look at your message, but before you can even get there, just shot somebody else's profile in front saying, what about this person? What about that person? Because it's it's designed to keep you single. That's the whole point of these apps.

They're not designed to make contact. They're just a business and business that needs people on it. And it's not in their interest for you to be building meaningful relationships. It's about giving you the illusion of abundance of of options. I don't believe that we're just not good as one because too many options. We just not good to choose. Yeah, we like this. The thing is, what do you know this thing? The thing is, is that there is always the human condition of grass being greener.

And the truth of the matter is, is that the grass isn't greener. The grass is greener where you water it, but it's not like the other side of the fence. So that's what they're selling. The grass is greener concept and I think people need to change their behavior. A lot of behavior does seem to center around. You've got multiple people. How do you build a genuine connection when you're having three or four people that are attracted to simultaneously?

It just doesn't work for me. But I know that it's happening and I get what everyone else knows that's happening. Who's been on the dating site? Sorry, I'll stop because I could talk forever on this subject is some good points.

Launer I was just going to say the difficulty is a lot of people on these sites, their preference is to date lots of people at the same time. And that makes it difficult for the people who want to want to date people one at a time. It's a real mixture of of people with different needs and desires. Yeah, that's that's what makes it difficult.

I think it's really important that that you define the ground rules of what's right for you and how you're going to like how your journey is going to go.

Like I say something, I feel for me personally in my own journey that the whole thing of dating is really, for me, not really worth the time and the results it's produced. And so I'm better. I feel invested in that time, improving myself, my life and meeting people through way of activity, getting out. Now, that's a luxury that not everybody can afford. I appreciate that. But for me, the better I feel about myself, the more confident, the more that I'm enjoying life.

When somebody truly attractive does cross my path, I'm already in that zone of feeling good, feeling happy, and that's attractive by itself. So instead of feeling demoralized, unbaked or ghosted, all of these weird things that happen on these apps, I'm going to trade that for like investing in myself and then being not I wasn't necessarily already, but being even more spontaneous. I'm ready and fully confident that when I see I I'm attracted to somebody that I'm able to go to that confidently.

So, yeah, I have a different approach. Yeah.

I really think this freaky. For me in design and I went dating Jenny, I think this really freaks and the first is really understanding yourself, which means understanding what you won't understand what you need in a relationship. People often talk about you like maybe getting in a relationship and that people don't come with a huge amount of. But what if you gave them one more, if you had that you knew, you know, there's talk about the like the five love languages, but I think is so much more in depth than that of the more aware that you of who you are, how you work and what you need when you get to the point of acceptance of yourself, like Carl talked about that sort of point where you really become attractive.

And Yanis talked about really, to paraphrase, not not needing someone else, not needing a relationship when you get to that point. It's the point where you can define dating on your own terms and you can say, this is what I want. This is what I. This is this is like. And so when you know that clearly enough in yourself, you're able to express it. And you can say, OK, this is how I die, you know, like like one person that's I time.

And I would rather like I only want to date someone that's ready to invest and see what we can build. So I think that I think that's the first skill, real self-awareness, self acceptance. And then the next skill is really about conversation. How do you have a really deep, meaningful conversation? Because so much of relationships is unsaid. And part of that comes from we all know ourselves to tell someone else we are afraid of being honest. And we we've.

To be honest, requires a level of emotional stability, the foundation that you're able to be honest. When people are people pleasing, when they feel that they're not good enough, when they haven't said myself, that's when I going to tell the truth. Or when they're trying to get a result, so really have the deep self knowledge and having the skills to have the conversations of really going deep and which also means the ability to really listen to really care and understand about how someone else works so that you have a use a map and then later on, it's really about how you deal with conflict.

Because what happens in a lot of relationships is it all goes fine until there's conflict and when there's conflict, people feel that there's no way that. And because they don't know how to reconnect or realign, they're not able to get past the conflict. Where is the really good couples? It's not that they have less conflict, but it's how they deal with the conflict and the conflict enlarges them and strengthens the relationship.

We talk about a couple of times about how we feel as the humans. If you're doing the good things and like as the human mind is built like that, to be feeling good because we're looking for that good feeling of almost. Let me just talk about that in the group. Sometimes we're not saying no. We keep saying yes. And what we do, we just actually trading our self out and not fulfill ourselves anymore, especially how the ladies are it when you do it without thinking about it, just continuously saying yes and you don't have any purpose behind to say yes.

You just want to do good things for the people at these that actually all these you. That should be the first question. Yes. Go for it, because that's what you build your future, your life. But if you don't, do you just basically pleasing people, you're just basically put yourself in the back seat. And every single time you do that, you're just breaking down. You just put yourself behind everybody else.

Culturally, particularly women are told, given the role of nurturer, of looking after others, but everyone, they say yes to every yes that you say you say no to something else, whether you're aware of it or not. And having that real knowledge about yourself gives you, you know, what your purpose is and what you should say yes to what you should say no to. And this else what you were saying, Yanase, I think it was kind of relating to or I'm not sure if you are very negative, but is the more.

You look after yourself, the more we talked about above the line and below the line, above the line being at your best, below the line, at your worst, the more like you, you can naturally live above the line. You have to work that. You have to know who you are. And you have to you have to focus your energies and attention on that. But when you are different, when you do that and you become more attractive and you become in a sense like to use the word more valuable, one more face can.

When you see that user manual, you know, it's actually came to my mind once we had the trainings where they actually give for the Legos for wanting to see how to make it that helicopters and to give for other groups without use of manuals to do something from it. And guess what's happened? The first group who had to use it, Amandola, they spent double the amount of time just to go for perfective for that. And other group didn't have any money for it.

And they did it and it was more successful. And that's just the human spirit we all the time do. We overthink it. We all overthink it every single time in everything I think is anxiety, that creative thinking. And I think that is a general anxiety about relationships.

There's anxiety, Rob, I mean, that's why people are connecting and like dating more than one person. You know, I've tried to date guys, you know, even in their 60s, and they're not committing you know, they don't want to be hot again. They're just rather have a bit of fun and then move on to the next one. And that's how they want to get to relax some of these older guys. I feel about that. We don't do well with choice.

Barry Schwartz talked about the paradox of choice of humans just aren't very good. Choosing nothing like the ideal is free, but when we have too much, it creates more anxiety and indecision. And when we look historically, when we were living in like a couple of hundred years ago, we were living in the village and there was only three people. Whereas now you can have one hundred thousand people in your in your radius. And that becomes overwhelming because how do you choose the right person?

And that does become disposable, that someone is the most superficial of things, that people are picking people off. One of the so arranged marriages actually performed better in arranged marriages, statistically better in terms of marital satisfaction. And part of that is because you've taken away the grass being greener. You've committed these expectations, these assumptions. It's kind of a bit like if you've thrown in a situation. Then you can cope with it like you make the best of it and you build from that, but when there's always the loop open that maybe can be someone else, maybe there's another choice.

That's when it becomes more stressful and it's harder to come in because people want people to say, make judgments on everybody around based on less than a second or the abundance of those choices that those options. They're not going to commit, they're just going to always feel that there is an abundance. And that's what's wrong with modern day apps and dating.

But some of us feel sometimes that we are not good enough. So we have a lot of self about our worth of self worth and what we can contribute to any potential relationship that we may embark on. And so sometimes I think we have to look at ourselves and really start to appreciate who we are, what we have and what we have to offer. And as I said earlier, we make a lot of frogs, but nonetheless, we might find somebody who wants to kiss us back.

But having said that, I also think that we need to approach dating not just with this sense of foreboding, because really we're meeting a stranger. We don't know if we want to see them again. We may get on. We may not get along, but at least we are out and about. We are meeting people. We are cemented in and in our minds what we like and what we don't like, what we tolerate in someone, as Rob described, coming in order to training what the track is.

It's a no no for many people straight. That's all of the list. And so I think we have to. We have a lot of power in our hands. We have our strengths, we have a sense of self and what we can tolerate and what we what we appreciate. And I think we just need to be bold enough and use them to the best of our abilities and not be scared.

Definitely. I think I think I I think there's so much pressure that we grow up and we smile and everything around us seems big and all the organizations see big. But all of them, like the building blocks of our society, is individuals. And whoever we are, we have something we have something that's valuable. And there are people that will like us and there are people that want one, that people that will love us and there's people that want.

And the more that we can get acceptance of ourself, the more that we're able to be clear. So I like the simplest thing. Like we have so much technology. If you are really clear about who you want in a relationship and you just asked everyone in your network, everyone on Facebook, I'm looking for someone about this like of this person. And some of this in your network, there are people that would know, people who would be kind of right.

And Ali was talking about just talking to people. And if you do without expectation, because once you get the expectation and it kind of becomes more pressure to become creepy and it's not that kind of conversation, but just naturally talking to everyone and just seeing how you connect with I, I, I think dating works best on a dating app. If you are human and you genuinely care about the other person, whether you care about them is like them, romantic or not.

Just that or just another human person, another human being. If you can just treat them as humanity and just connect on whatever level and then you'll find these people that you connect platonically, there's people maybe romantically, and then there's people that you have a deeper connection with. But it's really where the problem with dating apps is they take the humanity out of dating, the humanity out of a human interaction. If you use them with humanity. Everyone says men are just looking for sex now while women are just looking for money.

We all. We're all a microcosm of the whole and we all the universal need, we all need to feel loved. We all want to feel valued, to be cared for, to care. And if you can connect to enough people purely. Then you like that is the way that you can connect and get into something deeper. Sibila.

I just wanted to go back and add my opinion on arranged marriages. Isn't it fair to say that an arranged marriage works well because there's lack of choice and there's a lot of pressure, especially if it's heavily dominated by men like culturally dominated because sometimes a certain person will behave a certain way and they'll be justified because the culture supports that stance and then people are stuck. They don't have the option to separate and find somebody else.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's very true. So I when I studied psychology, I specialized in happiness. And it was a time when positive psychology was really booming. And I remember watching there was all these there were programs on TV of this group of people were going into town and they were going to show everyone has to be happy. And so statistically, religious people are more happy or people who have some faith are more happy. People who play music are more happy and.

What they did was they tried to they say, OK, people have spiritual faith, let's let's get people having a spiritual faith, could we play music? And we got them like in a choir. And for me, it's just it's artificial. So they were getting everyone can sing and be happy. I think what they missed was people who play music have a passion, people who have a passion that's organic or happy because they they have an interest in people who have a faith, have some way of looking at the world that works for them.

But when we artificially put them, put that in, it doesn't work. And so one of the reasons I think arranged marriages work is because there is a cultural upbringing, there's a cultural values that all support that framework and said people. And so the couple grow up within that. There is pressure and there is. And sometimes it is difficult because it doesn't work and it's hard to get out because you have a lot of pressure. But yeah, so I think it works within the culture.

Yanase.

Oh, no, after all this, when we talk, it can say something to my mind, and I think you spoke before about whenever you feel something new, it's like you smell and you pass you all the time, feel it. And over the time, your pain, it's exciting. Over the time your you get used to it and literally just eliminate things that smell and you not feel it anymore. So you become immune for that? What meat, meat, ice, people doing the same values, they don't dare because they have to get see the date.

It's become a broken day just out of the U.S. They're not even DETI. It's their values. I had once when somebody let's just say, look, you've been very kind. Well, you know, something different. And the person it's just that's who I am. And I didn't even take it as a compliment and felt the values behind not so many, but a person can be that kind, you know, let it thatching that person bite first and then we just drink toast and something.

It's no more exciting for us. But just as dozens of other side note, we have to reconnect for that. Life is started to remind ourselves.

We only know ourselves because we've lived we live through our own skin and we so that means that we don't we don't necessarily understand other people because it's not how I feel. Therefore, other people might not feel like that. And I think that's the thing about self-awareness and self acceptance is that you have to kind of objectify yourself and stop identifying with everything you feel, everything you do, but understand that there's a separation like separate from your behavior, separate from your values, separate from the framework that makes you so that you're able to look at in the same way that other people can, because you can't really value yourself or understand yourself while you're looking from a framework, while you're looking from somebody that you you identify with so much.

So it's kind of recognizing that your personality is made up of different elements. But when you can separate that, you are not the personality and when you can separate from that, that's how you can understand how you are from someone else, like how you are from someone else's perception. And it's also like different trying on different lives, because sometimes everything we've got has come from. From our culture, from all our experiences, and we haven't experienced the contrast to know which is right for us, I think what you're seeing the rub is that we need to take a look at ourselves from the viewpoint of our true essence of people away from the layers of influences that we have accrued over time.

The influence of parents, the influence of school, influence of friends, all of those layers that have helped to define what we think of as our values, as being our values. And we just take them for granted. We don't question them. We don't look at them and examine, is this really what I think? Is this being true to myself? Is this part of who I actually am or am I going along and playing along? Because this is what convention says.

And if I don't, then I stand out like a sore thumb. You know, it's like in my family, if I talk to my or when my dear aunt from Canada calls me and she says to me, and my dear, you must do this and you must do that and you must do whatever you know. And it's all we need. You need to pray and you need to pray and you need to pray. And I must be praying and prayed and prayed.

And if I do say to her, but I am not religious, I think she would have apoplexy immediately because how dare I say those words are blaspheming to the Pope, even though she's a hypocrite when it comes to being really properly religious. But that's another conversation, because that's the other part of that conversation. People put onto you things that they see in the public domain that you ought to do and you ought to be. But they themselves are not.

And so we struggle with these things and we get lost trying to find htun, trying not to think, trying to conform, trying to find a way to wriggle through without offending people. Me at this stage of my life. If you're offended, that's your problem. I'm gone. I'm doing what I'm doing. So that's that I think is is people can so identify with such horrible things like maybe religion or culture or something like that. And I've never separated from it.

And so they impose it on other people. And when you look at the relationships, the best relationships are of freedom. And so we have to be aware of if we're not aware of our biases, can we impose the mind of a people?

You're talking about arranged marriages, which is what I did have a long time ago. So from my experience, you know, we've brought up to be committed and loyal. So we have that in our head. And then that's why I mean, it wasn't me that it's my husband that decided I want to be in the marriage. I would like to sort of work together, but. In general, yes, that you work because, you know, we brought up that we are going to be committed.

We are going to be loyal. And we are going to make it work. And I think if people went into that sort of mindset with with dating and relationships stuff, and I'm going to try and make it work and go in there with a more positive mindset and a more growth mindset. And I think it would be easier to have relationships.

I think that's truly it. We I mean, I don't know everyone has. But certainly I find that in this society, we're not learning these beautiful qualities of of of loyalty and from childhood, we haven't got the parents. That show is not even the teachers. We could see that. But I feel that where I look around is a lot of broken, broken relationships from childhood. So we don't have that teaching or knowledge of what it is like to to have.

And because when we have that in our head, whatever is in our head is what we experience in life. So basically, it's all about the beliefs and and the the thoughts that we have is what we manifest. So if you don't have this kind of training, then and I think that's really missing in this in this Western world, I think I want to talk about that because there's deficiencies, obviously, in other cultures. But but just about this this little thing.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good point. I think we're at a stage where relationships have never been before until about fifty six years ago, relationships were of economic survival. And so we talked about this long. I think we talked on a previous one about people living longer relationships the longer this financial independence and there's greater expectation. But also in the Western world, we have a very individualistic culture. And so that individualistic culture leads us to. To be out for ourselves and to feel like it's kind of a consumer consumerist culture, and so we bring that to, you know, what makes me realize all these we all expected to be kind of outcome.

We want to be a tantalizing decision process and will be an ongoing process forever, forever. But we all want it to end results from it rather than to be going to that. The moment is to remind you that it doesn't end deep in the moment. It just really honestly, it's a process actually, that journey.

Yeah. And I really feel that that underlying anxiety makes people want to feel they've met the one this is a happy ever after. Where is relationships is one of the games that you always play fear, conflict, relationships and survival. These are all games that we have played throughout life. And so many of us want to opt out because we want to feel like it's safe. OK, thank you, everyone, for sharing that. I've got my dog in the background and he wants to come out.

Thank you, everyone, for for sharing and for your contributions. Is there anything anyone wants to say in closing or any insights or sharing anyone has? Final thoughts, Europe is just that we must give up, you know, keep hope and also it's like job interviews in a way. You know, you've got to expense a few, you know, before you find the right person.

Definitely. I think there's a really good point there is that Helen Fisher made when everyone said, oh, but dating and relationships are different. And she said she said the environment's different, but people biologically can't evolve in that quickly to the need for connection. So she talks about Friedreich's, the need for sex, the need for romance and the need for deep companionate. And that's always there. And that's why it's a game that is always there for life, because biologically driven for that.

OK, well, thank you, everyone. Have a good week. I'll see you next week.