Wondering how to navigate the path toward a financially secure future for your church? Join us for the Pivot podcast as your hosts, Terri Elton and Dr. Dwight Zscheile, dive deep into the topic with the insightful Grace Pomroy—accomplished author, dedicated educator, and the Director of Luther Seminary's Stewardship Leaders program. If your church is seeking a more sustainable financial roadmap, you're in the right place. Together, we'll unpack strategies, explore innovative approaches, and shed light on the keys to long-term financial stability for your faith community. So, whether you're a clergy member, a stewardship leader, or just curious about the financial well-being of your church, buckle up for an enlightening journey!

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Dwight Zscheile: Are church finances keeping you up at night? Does your church building feel more like a hindrance than a benefit? If you're trying to discern a more sustainable financial way forward as a church, then you are in the right place today. Hello everyone, I'm Dwight Zscheile.

Terri Elton: And I'm Terri Elton. And welcome to the Pivot podcast. This is the podcast where we talk about how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. And today we're very excited to have Grace Pomroy with us. Grace is a financial educator, researcher, and trainer here at Luther Seminary, and she directs our Stewardship Leaders program. She is the author of a forthcoming book, Funding Forward, and the co-author of Embracing Stewardship: How to Put Stewardship at the Heart of Your Congregational Life. Grace, welcome to the Pivot podcast.

Grace Pomroy: I'm so glad to be here. Terry and Dwight, thank you so much for having me. I'm an avid listener, so it's always fun to be on a podcast you listen to. Totally.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Grace, this is a time when so many congregations are struggling with financial sustainability. You've spent the last year and beyond really researching how churches in a variety of contexts are discovering creative new ways of funding their ministries beyond traditional tithes and offerings. So let's dive in and tell us a bit more about this project. How did it come about and what are some key learnings from it?

Grace Pomroy: I'd love to tell you more. So over the last year, I had the opportunity to discuss this topic of funding forward with about 100 congregations, and we were looking particularly for congregations who had formed more sustainable models for ministry that were aligned with their mission. And this came in a variety of different forms. They might have added a new income source beyond the offering plate. They might have a self-sustaining ministry, or they might have reduced their budget in a very mission oriented manner. So not just "we're going to cut a few things here and there," kind of what I like to say, a death by a thousand cuts version of church budgeting, but instead actually making some really clear decisions about programs that they wanted to let go of in order to create space for something new. So in the midst of this process, we decided to do two things. First, we wanted to reach out to congregations who were doing this work and figure out what exactly were they doing, what exactly was going on, how much income were they really bringing in, because you heard a lot of different stories on the ground of congregations who might have a church school, but in reality, when you peel back the layers, it wasn't actually sustainable and it certainly wasn't bringing in any income. So we wanted to learn a little bit more about that side of the equation, both financial and missional. And then we wanted to go deep with 12 sites to say, not just, what are you doing, but how did you do it? Because we found as we were working with congregations who wanted to create this change, that was often where they got stuck. They had a lot of great ideas, but they just couldn't seem to move the needle. They couldn't get the idea past their leadership team, or they couldn't figure out how they could get this work done when they didn't even have enough volunteers to serve communion on a Sunday.

Terri Elton: So tell us a story about one of the congregations or ministries you studied.

Grace Pomroy: I'd love to. One of my favorites is First Presbyterian Church of Gulf Shores in Gulf Shores, Alabama. It is a smaller congregation, and they have done some really dynamic work. They have a pastor who came in in the midst of the pandemic. She knew when she came in that they were struggling financially, but she wasn't really sure how they were going to fix that issue. Now, she had a bit of a business background, and when she finally got her arms around the finances about six months in, she realized they had a lot more of a financial problem than she first had heard when she got in. And she realized that if they didn't change things within a year, she may no longer be able to be in that role. So things were pretty dire, and she decided to come clean with the congregation, have a really honest conversation with her church leadership team, and said, we need to do something different. And that's exactly what they did. They put poster paper all up over the back of their sanctuary space, coming up with all of these different ideas, and she said, nothing is off the table, and we're going to do this together. Things like selling the building. Also things about opening their building, anything that you can imagine was on that sheet of paper. And at the same time she was having conversations in her community and two key topics came up. One was child care was a key need in Gulf Shores, but they also had a strong need for affordable rentable office space because of the amount of people who are working from home and people who didn't have traditional offices to go to. They did the math on the child care and realized that just wasn't a fit for them. Now, I should say, we also had another research place that had a booming child care program that was very emotionally aligned and financially sustainable. So don't worry if that's your route, that's okay. But for them, that just wasn't a fit. But as they looked into affordable, rentable office space, they realized there was a lot of promise there. And within about six months to a year, their entire congregation was full. They had seven different spaces. They now have a vibrant in there all throughout the week. I remember talking to their church musician who said when she used to go to the coffee pot, there was just no one to even have conversation with when she was there practicing music, and now she has conversations with people from her community she would have never thought she'd have conversations with. So not only did they solve a finance issue, they also created a missional opportunity for their congregation and lived even more deeply into their church's mission statement, which is about using all of the resources that God had entrusted to their care.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Grace, I'd love to follow up a bit on that word "missional" that you've used a few times so far. It'd be easy for churches sometimes to approach this simply as a business problem, a technical thing that if they need to just sort of address organizationally. But you're inviting us into a deeper imagination that has to do with identity and a sense of God's calling. Say more about what you've learned about how important that is and how congregations can actually do that work of discernment.

Grace Pomroy: It is a huge concern in the midst of this process. And I have to say, as a more financially minded person myself, when I initially approached this topic, I wondered, could we just solve this like a business problem? Could we just figure out the quickest way to be able to fill in the financial gap? So if you're thinking that I've been there too, I understand where you're coming from. I have a lot of empathy for it, but we have actual data now from our research project that shows us that the places that tend to have the most success with these projects are bringing three different pieces together. They have a clear understanding of where God is calling them. They have a clear sense of what their community's need is, and they have an underutilized asset. And yes, that can be a building like the First Presbyterian Church of Gulf Shores example, but it can also be a staff skill like baking or farming, as in one of our examples. So underutilized assets can come in a lot of shapes and sizes. But those three things coming together tended to be where our interview sites found the most success, both from a financial perspective but also in living more deeply into their mission. But to your question, Dwight, I think the best way to live more deeply into your mission is to actually get outside and spend more time in your neighborhood and with the people that you are called to serve, which can be a challenging thing for us. It's easy to talk about getting to know our neighbors, but actually doing that process can be so challenging. And I found a lot of faith leaders resources to be so helpful in terms of thinking about prayer walks, how we can dwell in our community of dwelling in the world, as well as dwelling in the word, can be so helpful to get us outside and into those relationships. And remember that there are likely people in your congregation who are also a part of your community. So how do you tap them and have them introduce you to a friend? So it's a lot of warm contact and not just a lot of cold calls into your neighborhood.

Terri Elton: So I'm serving very part time in a redevelopment congregation, and I can hear this question coming from them at the beginning of this process. How do we achieve a stable financial future for the church? And so this is kind of like in light of that, this is real, right? What would you answer to that? Someone asking that question?

Grace Pomroy: I think it's such a valid question given where we are in the church today. I would also say that the word "stable" is a tricky one, as my students have done work with congregations. Prior to this research project, I had students who were doing case studies at these many of these sites, and they would ask these sites, are you sustainable? And often the response was laughter. People laughed at the question, because this idea of a stable, sustainable future that we could hold onto , that we could make one change and it would stay with us forever. Which I know is what so many of us want, was just not the reality for these sites. They were hanging on to the tail of the spirit and being led into many different ways of doing this work. And that meant making many little iterations, iterations and iterative changes to their financial model. But I know that that's different because we're used to the offering plate being our one stable source of income. And I think we're being invited to transition into a new way of being that might be a bit more flexible and adaptable. That being said, I would also say that for these congregations that we studied, I was surprised at how many of them were able to dig deeply into this work and generate income fairly quickly. As you heard in the First Presbyterian Church of Gulf Shores example, it was just months to even a year to where they were able to find a more sustainable model for them. But again, that modifier more is really helpful because I'm sure if that pastor was here today, she wouldn't say we are completely stable. She would say we found a more sustainable way forward that's also allowed us to live more deeply into our mission and a benefit of that is that in their case, they've actually now had members coming to their congregation. They've actually raised attendance because people in the community have looked out and said, this is a place that's open all throughout the week, that's providing space for my neighbor. I'm interested in going there now. Notice it's not necessarily the people renting space who are coming to church on Sunday. It's not a one for one and it doesn't happen everywhere, but it has created a different perception in the neighborhood for them.

Terri Elton: So this is the Pivot podcast, and what I hear you inviting leaders into is to say, "valid question, but let's pivot that." And even a small pivot, right, actually may get us there in some roundabout way. But the core issue is not sustainability or knowing that your books are going to be secure. It's what is God calling us to, is really what I hear at the heart. And then using our assets, as you said earlier, to live that out. But it's also not ignoring, um, balance sheets. Right? I hear my financial guy in my mind, you know, like, what is this telling us? But reading those financial sheets in a kind of a different way, I really I really appreciate that. Is there, if you were to address that, is there a first step that you would give somebody who has that question to make that pivot?

Grace Pomroy: The best first step you can take is take a look at the assets that God has already entrusted to your church's care. Usually, we get to a point where we feel that resources are so scarce that we assume we don't have anything to bring to the table, because often we don't talk about it until things feel desperate. So I encourage you to take a look at your assets and not just your book. Start there. You can certainly start there. Take a look at your books, take a look at your church's property, and especially take a look at the corners of your church's property that you may not have looked at recently, the one that has a stack of a thousand hymnals, the one that has a lot of chairs stacked in the corner, or in the case of one congregation I used to attend, there was a gym in the basement that I had never even seen until I was there for three years as a member. It was hidden away. What kind of hidden assets are there? But also think about the time that someone might have to commit. Also, think about the network resources that are located within your congregation, and thinking about the skills that people have to bring to the table that may have remained untapped. Too often, congregations only ask about the skills that are related to tasks on a Sunday morning. And yet, skills are often the catalyst that can create some of these really interesting and generative ideas. I think about the table, farm and table bread social enterprise that was a part of our interview series, our interviews that we did, and I was fascinated to see that one staff member's gift for baking bread was the whole reason why this social enterprise began. And then she pivoted during the pandemic to say, well, we can't really bake bread together in a kitchen communally anymore. But I've got this interesting idea about farming, and there's an area in a local Catholic church that we could rent for a dollar a year. We have this opportunity. Could we pivot to then do Table Farm for now? And it was that skill and interest that really led them in a different direction to do youth ministry in their area in an entirely different way.

Terri Elton: Cool. Thank you.

Dwight Zscheile: So one of the four key pivots we've been talking about this season is this pivot from "one shape fits all" sort of one model of what church should look like to a mixed ecology of inherited and innovative forms of church together. And I want to just step back a bit and think with you about, you know, the inherited, predominant model that we have in the U.S. of this kind of voluntary association congregation, which is, assumes that people have a lot of institutional loyalty and commitment and volunteer capacity and are willing to sort of invest themselves in their resources, time, talent and treasure in these institutions. But of course, we've been talking a lot in this series about how culturally there's a shift away from that, particularly generationally, and that is breaking down. And so I think with us a little bit about that shifting landscape and then, both how that provides not only some, maybe some explanation for why it's so hard perhaps to sustain, you know, the inherited model, but also what are the opportunities as we shift into a different way of being church?

Grace Pomroy: I definitely see that playing out in the church's financial system. So much of what we know about the church today through the offering plate, is based off of a voluntary association model. It's based off the fact that I am going to be there at church every single Sunday, and when the offering plate passes, I'm going to put my money in that plate. And it's also based off of traditional fundraising values, which is that I care about this institution. So I'm going to give to this institution and you as the pastor, are going to respect my perspective because I'm giving to this institution and unintentionally, it can create a closed circuit where we're really only paying attention to those in the pews, because that's where we're getting our money from. And again, that can sound a bit crass. I understand that can sound crass, and I do believe in generosity as a spiritual practice, don't get me wrong. But I do think as things have shifted and become, resources become scarce, we ask a different set of questions when the only people we're depending on for our income are the people sitting right out there. And yet there are partners in the neighborhood who are eager to engage in this work, and may want our assistance in the work that they are doing that we've never even thought to have conversation with before, because we've gotten so caught up in this closed circuit way of being.

Dwight Zscheile: So I want to just do a follow up on that, which is that, if we think about people being motivated to give in the voluntary association model, in part just out of a sense of, you know, maybe duty or obligation or like, you know, I just like I give to support public radio or the Rotary Club or whatever, you know, these other organizations, that it can very easily happen less as a spiritual practice. But you're describing congregations that have taken journeys together that are communal and spiritual in nature, in terms of discerning new ways to connect with neighbors and discerning new business models. So talk with us a little more about kind of the spiritual practice dimension of all of this work.

Grace Pomroy: It was something that came out really strongly in the research and honestly slapped me in the face. I am a person of faith. I think I'm a person of deep and abiding faith. And yet when I entered into this work, I assumed financial sustainability and mission would matter equally. But financial sustainability would really matter more. And yet again and again and again, I saw God showing up in this process in ways that I hadn't expected. When we looked at the practices for how people were able to make some of these projects possible, and I should say we're talking about smaller projects and bigger projects, a big one being a church completely renovating their space to include affordable housing that took 11 years to do in Washington, DC, mainly because of laws and regulations and getting funding, you name it. But what helped people stay together in this process? The number one thing that came across was spiritual practices In the midst of a financial challenge, spiritual practices are what kept people together and returning back to the table farm, table bread example from Sacramento, California, at a church called The Table. One of the things that kept them together was the Wesleyan practice of sitting around the table. This is one of the key practices of their congregation, and that's what people show up for, is 90 minutes every week of sitting together with the small group and asking each other questions. And when I asked the pastor again and again, how did you make this social enterprise happen? He said, "It was the tables." It was sitting together, being in conversation with one another. And many of those tables are now happening out on the farm, are happening at the bakery, are happening in the midst of the social enterprise with people of all ages. So I would invite people to consider what are people showing up for? Because oftentimes when people ask me about starting some of these new ideas, they say, Grace, how can I do this if I can't even get enough sacristans for Sunday morning? And I said, well, do you think people be more likely to show up to be in the sacristy? Or do you think they might be interested in being a part of social enterprise? And I still remember the conversation I had with a pastor last year on this topic, and she said, "Grace, it's definitely a social enterprise." People want to be a part of that new burgeoning work, and they want to be part of something that intersects with their daily life in a really clear and concrete way. Going back to the First Presbyterian Church of Gulf Shores example, where they built the affordable, rentable office space, they had a building that was crumbling. They needed to make some pretty clear changes. And I think many of us can say, we'd love to start something like that, but our space isn't up to snuff for it. What they did is they had a retired church member who said, I am willing to make this space what it needs to be, and I'm going to bring all my friends along for the ride, people inside the congregation and outside. So it wasn't some sort of volunteer shift that I was signing up for. It was, we're doing something great, a real impact in our community, and we can actually use our hardware skills, our electrician skills, our plumbing skills, and we can all get together and have fun while we're doing it. And I was surprised to hear there were people outside the church who were excited to come in and do that work, because they wanted to help renovate this space in their community. They felt ownership in it in a different way.

Terri Elton: All right. I'm going to go in another direction. What are the pitfalls? Like, whatever you do, just don't do this. What would that be?

Grace Pomroy: One of the biggest pitfalls I see is when people see the list of possibilities, and there are so many possibilities of things that you can do. People see grants on the list, and they assume immediately that it's a pot of gold. In fact, I've heard people describe it: Grants are the pot of gold. We can do anything we want. We're just going to get grant money, and it will cover all of the things that we need to have covered financially. Yes, there are grants. Yes, there are congregations who are covered by grants, but they generally tend to be best for projects that are just getting started and ones that have a really great intersection between the church and the community. If you're looking for something to just help you fund worship or salaries or administration, generally a grant is not going to be the best source to cover it. And even if you do get a grant once, it's likely not going to provide you with sustainable funding. So I'd say that's the biggest pitfall. The second pitfall that I see is that people who want to do something with their space get too caught up in this idea around taxes and insurance, where they'll say, oh, I think there's going to be too many roadblocks. We can't do anything with our space or our space is crumbling. We can't do anything with our space. I encourage you, if you've got those questions, and they are definitely valid ones, to suspend those questions for a minute, to think creatively and then get the right people in the room. Talk with a tax advisor as one of your first conversations. Talk with a lawyer. Connect with your city council, whoever you need to connect with. Bring them into the room and bring them into the ideation process. I would say so many churches are doing this. I can't remember the exact number, but it was the highest number that came up was people doing things with their space. I think it was about 70% of the congregations that we studied. So clearly it's not as big of a roadblock as we're making it out to be. We just have to go through the right checkbox processes as we go through the list. But don't let that stymie ideas early on.

Dwight Zscheile: So I'm curious for you just to share a few more stories. The stories you've shared have been amazing so far, um, of Christian communities again, that have taken the leap and had the courage to try different ways of finding a different business model and share a few more highlights from your research.

Grace Pomroy: Oh, there are so many, it's so hard to pick. It sometimes feels a bit like I'm choosing from just this beautiful collection of art, but a couple that come to mind for me. One of my favorites is located here in Minnesota, River Heights and La Vinia Vineyard Church that's located in Inver Grove Heights. And they did something really interesting with their space, but also with collaborative ministry. So while the pastor, Pastor Pete Benedict, was out running, he received a vision for what he might do with his space and realized that they had way more space than they needed. Initially they had bought a piece of property adjoining their congregation that they thought they would need, and realized that city easements were a little different than they expected and that they may not need this land. And I think many congregations have been in this situation where we've got land, but it's not usable for us. It's not something we need. So he said, in accordance with this vision, what if we were able to use this for the highest and best use for our community? So they started a lot of community conversations. Realized that the biggest thing that they could help with was long term homeless housing. Um, so not necessarily transitional housing, but this particular population, they didn't have a necessarily a place for in that community and were able to start a relationship with this, nonprofit that then purchased the space and was able to build this long term housing unit. It was a longer process than they had expected. It took a few years, but a really interesting one. And now post-pandemic, are really able to interact with those residents in a new way and engage them with their congregation. At the same time, because they were able to create these profits from selling part of their space, they were able to use some of those profits to expand and do some renovations to the other side of their building, so that another church that they had birthed in their space, La Vinia, which is a Spanish speaking vineyard congregation, could then be able to worship at the same time as River Heights. They're now able to share youth ministry, to share children's ministry. They said, "Our children are together in school. Why can't they be together in this ministry?" and have created this vibrant - What does Pastor Pete always say?- "It's two languages, one church family" that's created so many interesting moments of vibrant ministry and also created some interesting moments of sustainability and consideration for both congregations. Um, because as you might imagine, sustainability looks different for those two two different sites. You've got a new burgeoning congregation that's primarily an immigrant community, and then you've got a longer pre-existing congregation who's there, who has a different vision of sustainability, but they've been able to come together and and really share that wealth. Oftentimes, I think when congregations hear about selling property, they assume they need to sell every single asset that they have. And what we often saw was that some congregations did sell everything, but most congregations sold part of their property. Or they might actually, as funny as it sounds, sell all of their property and buy a portion back, or maybe even rent back a portion of the property. So even when you're talking about property sale, there's a lot of different ideas on the table. So I'd encourage you not to shut down that idea right away, just because it sounds like you might have to give something up.

Dwight Zscheile: Wow. So it sounds like there's so much more in your research then certainly we're able to cover in this episode, but you've put together a free e-book about this Funding Forward research. Can you share a little bit about the e-book? Who would it be good for? What will people learn from it?

Grace Pomroy: Yes. So the research e-book is available on Faith Lead and we cover some of the high points of the data. So this is really, really great for your church finance team, your church stewardship team, your church leadership team, all those business-y folks who say, I really want to see the proof of how this works. I was actually just talking to one of my former students last night that shared this with her leadership team yesterday, and she said it finally opened their eyes. We've been having this conversation now for two years. We've been looking at space rentals, so many different options. And yet this group said, oh wait, they're actually real congregations who are doing this, and they're finding real traction and there's real income actually coming in. We've got data to back this up. And it opened up a conversation not just about ideas, but with facts in mind. So I would say it can be a very helpful resource there. And for pastors who are dipping their toe in the water and saying, "I'm just honestly not sure where to start," this will expand your imagination with ideas.

Terri Elton: I love that, and I want to thank our listeners for tuning in today, and I want to challenge them. There you've given us a lot of ideas, and I would guess that listeners are in different places of this journey. Maybe they've been talking about it for two years and they're stuck. Maybe they're just beginning wherever they are in the journey. I really want to challenge our listeners to take one idea from today and to do something about it. Talk to somebody, bring it to your church council. Test, do an experiment, and test something small. Right. And because I think taking one step is what I heard you say, just take one small step. And this pivot happens as you take one step and then another and then another.

Dwight Zscheile: So those of you who are watching or listening, you can find a link to Grace's free e-book in the show notes for today's episode. If you want to dig in more and there will be the full book which will be coming out from Fortress Press sometime this year. We look forward to that. So, Grace, thank you again so much for joining us today on the Pivot podcast. It's great having you on the show.

Grace Pomroy: It was wonderful to be here.

Terri Elton: And listeners, we encourage you to tune in next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faithlead.org.