Episode Summary:

In this episode of The Future-Ready Advisor, Sam Sivarajan chats with Rob Janson, the co-CEO and Chief Investment Officer of West Court Capital. They delve into the nuanced world of alternative investments and discuss strategies for diversifying portfolios, particularly for ultra-high-net-worth clients and family offices. This discussion is a must-listen for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of wealth management and the strategic use of alternative assets.

Key Quote from the Episode [2:28]:

"As I moved through my career in Europe and later in Canada, I embraced the philosophy of having more arrows in the quiver—whether it's real estate, private equity, or hedge funds."

Topics Discussed in This Episode:

• The Journey from Financial Advisor to Alternative Investment Leader [1:37]
• Understanding Portfolio Diversification with Alternative Investments [6:33]
• The Role of Real Assets in Contemporary Wealth Management [10:18]
• Challenges and Opportunities in Managing Liquidity and Risk [16:46]
• The Future Landscape of Alternative Investments [31:55]

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-janson-mfin-27b1b5b/
• https://westcourtcapital.com/

Episode Transcript:

The full episode transcript is available for those who want to delve deeper into the robust discussion on the potentials and strategies surrounding alternative investments.

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Sam 1:19

Hi, everyone. I' Sam Sivarajan and welcome to today's episode of The Future Ready Advisor. Today I'm here with Rob Johnson, an expert on alternative investments. Rob, welcome to our show.

Rob 1:33

Thanks for having me, sir. I'm excited.

Sam 1:35

I'm looking forward to this conversation. Let me

Rob 1:37

Is

Sam 1:37

quickly

Rob 1:37

there?

Sam 1:37

introduce you to the audience. Rob Johnson is the co-CEO and chief investment officer of West Court Capital and is responsible for the selection and oversight of alternative approaches to constructing diversified portfolios. West Court primarily serves ultra high net worth clients and family offices. Previously, Rob was a financial advisor working with high net worth and ultra high net worth clients, both in Canada and in Switzerland. Rob, let's dive in. Can you

Rob 2:08

Sure.

Sam 2:08

start with sharing a little bit about your journey, your investment philosophy? I'm curious as to what inspired your transition from being an advisor to leading an alternative investment firm, and how did your advisory experience shape your approach that you're bringing to West Court Capital?

Rob 2:28

Well, it's a great way to start, I think, because my journey is a little bit different than I would say the the traditional one of getting an education, getting into financial services and and growing from there. I was raised in Canada, but my mom was Swiss. And so there was a longing after university to to head to Switzerland for the better part of what I thought was going to be a year. I ended up living in in Europe, between France and Switzerland for the better part of 11 years. And in

the Canadian portfolio construction anchor, which is I think steeped in a couple of decades past.

Sam 6:33

Yeah, that's a great point. I remember when, you couldn't hold foreign assets in your RSPs, this idea that we're now starting to move into more of a global type of portfolio. every country has their home bias in their portfolio construction. But Canadians in general have had a longer for a whole host of reasons, including a tax and other regulatory limitations that we've got. So the idea that we're moving towards a more global type of perspective in our portfolio that isn't new people in Switzerland or Europe or many other jurisdictions

Rob 7:10

Yeah.

Sam 7:10

have had a global type of portfolio. That's one arrow to the quiver that you talked about. And now we're adding new arrows to our quiver from, as you say, whether it's alternatives, whether it's, real estate, different asset classes. We're just kind of rounding it out. It's not new,

Rob 7:29

Yep.

Sam 7:29

but it is borrowing, as you say, fro tried and tested approaches in other jurisdictions.

Rob 7:36

Right. Yep. And I think it's a function of demand

there. There has been, I believe, a capitulation. And if I want it, you know, from from the banks, from the big asset managers, from the big wealth managers that have recognised that in this this globalist world that we live in and access to, let's call it access to information and in the access to information world that we live in, more and more people are asking more and more questions whether they be standing on the first tee of a golf course or meeting a friend for a walk or walking the dogs in their friend or family member or someone had access to two alternatives in a certain capacity. I think that course has grown simply by way of curiosity, by way of trying to access different returns streams. And so there's this sort of if we wanted to say we were avant garde because we wanted to embrace that, I think the other firms are, if I use the word capitulating, or at least recognising, I'll use that word potentially instead recognizing that it is both an opportunity for larger market share for meeting the demands of their clients and in cutting a new path. Because again, there has to be a certain level of innovation. If we talk about the Canadian landscape, we can't just sit with 60, 40, you know, stocks and bonds, some TSX peppering in some S&P500 buying, some can incorporate investment grade bonds, right? It's just it's just not the modern way anymore.

Sam 9:03

you're absolutely right. a lot of these clients, because of the information that's out there, they're looking for these solutions. So either if you're a bank or if you're a wealth manager, you're finding a way to provide access to these for your clients or you're losing share of market

Rob 9:18

yeah, you're hitting the nail on the head. I mean, both of us having been in those seats before, if you're not providing that opportunity,

what is lost on people is how fluid and how how quickly money can move right? The ability to move money, whether it be to a different jurisdiction, to a different asset manager, to a different wealth manager, to a different opportunity. People will seek out what they're what they're curious about. And so, again, we are still running a business. We're all running businesses to a certain extent. We're trying to keep our clients happy, create excellent risk adjusted returns for them. A so, yeah, it's it's important to continue to to innovate because if not, someone else will be right as that's just business.

That's the reality. So what trends have you observed, Rob, in the realm of alternative investments for family offices and high net worth investors, are you seeing any particular sectors or strategies that seem to be gaining momentum over the last little while?

I think the biggest for us and I can only talk about where we've had success is, is real assets has been very important for us. And so it's sort of two pronged. It was important because real assets are for the most part, let's let's talk about real estate. And it could be real estate, infrastructure, farmland, self-storage apartments. It's one of the last bastions of tax efficiency as well in Canada. And we don't need to delve too far into it. But offsetting income with depreciation means that distributions that you can make from from real assets in Canada are very attractive. So those are, you know, cash flow from real assets is important to it to family offices. That is well was extremely important in a lower interest rate environment. Right. Everybody was scouring the globe for what was yield. That regime is somewhat over now because of the you know, the raising interest rates that we've had.

No, I that's a great point. the concept of risk is multifaceted, and at the risk of being overly simplistic, the risk in alternatives primarily is on the reduced liquidity. Right. You're not being able to exit, on

Definitely.

any given day, etc.. But we'll talk about this more, if you have the right time horizon and the right portion of your portfolio allocated to that, that is a manageable risk. Now, you made an interesting point about we think esoteric when we talk about alternatives, but it doesn't need to be. I mean, things like infrastructure. I mean, we have an infrastructure problem in this country right now. And, there have been recent calls, as we've seen in politics, about the Canadian pension plans investing more in Canada and other things, etc..

Yeah.

What I thought was interesting in that discussion or debate, leaving aside whether, the separation of investment authority in the pension plans is the fact that all of our large pension plans are investing in infrastructure assets globally, etc.. But we have with the exception of perhaps the 407, there aren't that many infrastructure projects that are being invested in by the private sector directly or that are accessed by private clientele in Canada, whereas these are available in pretty well every other jurisdiction. What's your take on that? And do you see that changing in any time in the near future?

Well, I mean, I would hope that I mean, the unfortunate thing is I think the four or seven has been bought and sold three or four times. And you know, whoever holds it now, it's a phenomenal investment. So let's just say, yeah, we had that opportunity for public private partnerships in Canada. But these are these are major, major projects. And yes, it's unfortunate. We've got the our large pension funds and whether it be aimco, whether it be Cppib Ontario teachers, PSP, on and on and on. These are world renowned institutions and they're world renowned institutions that are capital allocators. And yet to your point, I think there there could be an inward looking or an inward looking sort of endeavor to. Yes, specifically with CPI, CPI, B, you know, these are these are these are Canadian dollars, Right. That are to the benefit of Canadians later in life. I mean, some of that should be directed to to benefit building these types of these types of investments in Canada, which is needed. To your point, I mean, we just cracked 40 million people and we're bracing immigration in Canada. But yes, we need the infrastructure to continue with it or else our quality of life will slowly erode if we don't keep up with it. Unfortunately, right.

So we talked a little bit about risk. Rightly or wrongly, that is perceived with alternative investments. How are you helping your clients navigate this concept or this multifaceted concept of risk in alternative investments, especially with respect to the reduced liquidity, potentially perceptions of increased volatility and long term sustainability, Like it's a different type of risk reward structure. How do you work with your clients to get them to think through that?

Yeah. And I think I think you've hit the nail on the head that one of the things that we always have to address with clients is, is that concept of liquidity and the necessity for liquidity. And you can I mean, we're speaking specifically within our clientele, I'll call it high net worth, ultra net worth from the 5 million to $500 Million client. And we literally have both in our books. But if you if you took if you took a high net worth client in Canada who has $10 million, one would suggest that again if you were to stratify stratify their portfolio from top to bottom, I would I would

suppose that the necessity for that $10 million to be immediately liquidity is something that is rarely studied. And what I mean by that is,

yes, one requires liquidity at the top right of that stratification. You know, is there are there any major liabilities? Are you going to buy another investment property? Are you going to buy a cottage? Is anybody in the family going to get married? Any major liabilities that you have in the near future? But the depths of that portfolio, maybe that's the first million or two health care problems, etc., Everybody requires liquidity and one should would certainly embrace that for that top part. When you get to the bottom of the portfolio. And in my example, it's that last eighth or the ninth or the 10th million dollar of the portfolio, we believe that someone and by the way, this grows the larger the portfolio. All right. When you get into 50 and $100 million, that ability, not necessity, but ability to embrace liquidity as even is even greater and what I mean by that is always given the the simple example there is public equity and there is private equity still both equity there, equity investments, public equity allows for exactly the selling of that position with a keystroke. Right. You hit enter, you're going to sell any large cap that you have in your portfolio, private equity, for the reasons of tying up your money, has to offer a higher rate of return. If not, why would you invest in it? And now it's not a miracle either, right? You're not trying to have ten points of return or 15 points of return per annum granted to you in the private markets over public markets. But there should be a legitimate,

definable rationale for tying up your money. So if you if you were to ascribe to really the traditional private equity investment of a of a ten year fund, Yes. Should you be able to make if the S&P 500 over the past seven years is sort of, I think compounded at about 9%, eight and a half, 9%, should you try to strive to make low double digits, maybe it's 11, 12 or 13 in private equity. Yes. And that that is a is an attractive element that I don't think many high net worth, ultra high net worth are studying in Canada because you're not going to spend that last dollar. And as the portfolio is bigger and bigger, as I said, 50 or $100 million, this is generational wealth. People are not going to be spending those dollars at the depths of their portfolio. So they can they can again, embrace that that illiquidity of a major tranche in traditional private equity or other that can compound it simply higher rates of return. So again, coming back to your point, you're hitting the nail on the head.

Liquidity must be both discussed, characterized, understood right from the beginning. But once you do, it goes from equally

a complication or an element that requires that that studying to an opportunity. And again, it's not for everybody, but for those who who can't embrace it. It's a phenomenal element, right.

you make a great point, Rob. at the end of the day it's this idea of chunking up your portfolio. there is a portion, it's the equivalent of a laddered portfolio of bonds on your portfolio. you ladder your liquidity depending on what

Exactly.

you need. There is money that you will need in three months. There may be money you need in the next year. There may be some cushion that you have for two years, but there is a chunk of money for a lot of people. Not everybody. There is a chunk for a lot of people, particularly the type of clients that you're dealing with where they're not going to need it for five or ten years, etc.. And again, risk appetites differ, but there is an opportunity for the person for whom it makes sense to sit there and trade off that lack of liquidity for that portion of the money that they're not going to need for five or ten years to trade that off for a higher reward. And, we see a lot of, as you say, generational wealth being generated and created in that way. we see, the family offices and ultra high net worth clients embracing these alternative investments largely for that reason, to deploy capital for a higher premium for money that they're not going to need in the foreseeable future.

Well, and I'll add to that, I mean, if you are willing to embrace tenure, illiquidity, so whether that be real estate or whether that be private equity, but let's use real estate as an example. We did a study of the five plus billion dollars of client assets that we had and the majority of clients that came to us with a high net worth, about 60% of them had generational real estate holdings. Okay?

They absolutely don't care on, you know, on a monday what that real estate is worth, so long as when you zoom out over ten or 20 or 30 years, you're going up into the right. It is growing. It's keeping up with inflation. And yes, there's there's hiccups, right? There's there's a repricing right now going on with higher interest rates. But if you take your ten year look to it, it won't matter. So is it producing the cash flow or is private equity are there, you know, on the quarterly marks, are they moving around a little bit? Yes, potentially. But again, success will be defined at the finish line, not in between. And so, again, I think it can be rewarding for people when they both embrace the liquidity, they can absolve themselves from really caring about the volatility for that tranche of the portfolio so long as, again, they're willing to wait to that finish line and then define what success is. Right? So it's it's it's a double edged sword in a positive way,

Look, there's a behavioral component to this. I've always joked that why a lot of retail investors like real estate is it forces good behavior. you buy residential or investment realty, leaving aside all of the other factors, you're not buying any of these things to flip it the next day. You're holding it for a period of years. You

right?

don't care next week whether your vacancy rates are high or, the construction rates are higher, interest rates have gone up or interest rates have gone down because you're holding your principal residence or you're holding your alternative investment for a number of years and it forces that long term time horizon for investing and stops bad behavior in terms of reacting or overreacting to short term market movements, etc.. And all doing on alternative investments is taking you're expanding the universe of assets that that applies to instead of just being residential real estate to,

yeah.

as you say, investment real estate, commercial real estate, private equity, private debt and so on.

Which again, can be a big tranche of the portfolio. Right. As I said, the bigger the portfolio, the greater the opportunity to embrace those elements

can you shed a little bit of light on how, some of your clients, like the bigger ones, the family offices, etc., approach alternative investments perhaps differently than traditional investors? Like, are there unique challenges that they're facing that make them a little bit different than the the traditional or the standard investor

I think it's just I mean let's if we step back and we have it even in our documentation, whether we look at I mean, first of all, all Canadians are alternative investors and why? Because Cppib runs about 60, 70% of their $500 billion and what would be considered alts and really what we're just considering this is X stocks and bonds, right? Or public markets long, long only public markets. And if you if you take a look at Yale, it's the same thing, right? Big, big U.S. endowment endowment. If you compare what is Tiger 21, which is a large North American peer sharing, they all run about 60 to 70% alts. And I would say that does extend to the Canadian family office as well. That allows for them to embrace that illiquidity. The greatest thing that they have as a luxury is time. It's different from a retail client who has worked their tail off for a 30 or 40 year career. They might have saved

an excellent RRSP. They have a million or $2 million there, but the ability to they do not have the ability to withstand that, that volatility. What I mean by that is psychologically and you know that I'm a big a big student of behavioral finance, when they see a portfolio down two or 3%, they equate that to a number of weeks or months or years that they've worked. Right. So going through something like, oh eight or nine is extremely traumatic because, again, there's there's the concept of, oh my gosh, half or a third or a quarter of my my working life is seemingly in the red in front of me on my screen. And family offices have almost an indefinite time horizon. And so we've sent reports sometimes where a client could be up, up in one month, two and a half million dollars, and we won't even get an email back. We're getting email back, you know, Thanks. That's it. Because again, they they how much is enough? How much is enough is in the rearview mirror. And it really is their ability to look at any investment under the sun, to embrace that illiquidity and to have a time horizon. That is whether it be volatility or liquidity, it doesn't really matter. So fortunately, fortunately for them, their investing opportunity set or or landscape is literally 180 degrees in front of them, where coming back to alternatives are the appropriate for everybody. Probably not smaller, smaller retail clients. Maybe not some real estate exposure. Exactly. Yo can buy the rates and you can buy some ETFs and that sort of thing, which again, is still prudent. I believe, but it is very much a different a different playing field for call it the five or 10 million and up. And that's why as well we wanted to stick to our knitting. We really haven't endeavored to open open a tranche of our client L in our portfolio management wealth management side for, for much smaller clients or much larger clients, because again, I'm not I'm certainly not saying it's an important tranche of the client or important tranche of the market, just not for us. Right. Those are those are two different beast. You know, the institutional client is very different in the in the small retail client is very tough. And we tried to stick to our knitting a little bit for sure.

that makes sense when you're evaluating alternative investment opportunities on behalf of your clients? What are the performance metrics or evaluation methods that you're primarily focusing on?

Yeah. And I would say that I mean, our motto is conservative alternative. And what we're trying to to do is solve for a a rate of return and interesting rate of return in almost all environments. And so that has changed over the past year, year and a half. I mean, in a lower interest rate environment, trying to make maybe 5 to 7, 6 to 8%, you know, for the better part of a decade and in a lower volatility fashion was was very, very attractive. If risk free is 5% right now, cash has become a new asset class. Right. And even it has felt good for everybody you, me and every client. You know, if you can get five, five and a half percent in money market growth, it feels feels good. Net is a different spread after tax, but for us, it's trying to produce a reasonable rate of return and pretty much pretty, pretty much all environments. Now the global snow globe has been shaken up over the past year, year and a half, with those interest rates climbing. And there will be a period of, I think, cooling off as that snow falls and settles in the in within my analogy. And then there will be a march higher. I think if we sit in interest rates in the 3% range, you know, that expected rate of return will will have to be higher. And maybe, you know, it'll be sort of an 8 to 10% expected return to to to become attractive for for clients. The way that we adjudicate those returns is very dependent on the asset class. I mean, risk adjusted returns, all they are are sort of the the the grail to us for sure, because in the public markets, you know, you want to quantify the return that you're getting for the the risks that you're taking. And when we speak about risk in the public markets, it's volatility as opposed to permanent loss of capital. So if you can have a sharp ratio of one meaning for one unit of return, you're accepting one unit of volatility or risk. And those those should be sort of your goalposts. And in the private markets and in real estate or private equity or infrastructure or other, you're trying to partner with excellent management teams. And it's a very different type of due diligence in the public markets. It's very much, you know, we're using math as are as as a lot of our guiding principles, exclusionary elements with with adjudicating risk adjusted returns. It's a lot of math. It really is. I mean, you can stack up the returns and then you can go and do your operational due diligence in the private markets is pretty much flipped. You have to start with the operational due diligence, getting to know management teams, their experience, how they're exercising their their craft and then using math as well. So again, that is a major part of why we have 40 people at the firm and we do we embrace different backgrounds, the diversity and in smart people that we have, we have

accountants on staff. We've got five or six lawyers. So CPA CFA is LLB is masters of Finance, Kairos Financial Risk Management, people from different walks of life because collectively I think we'll be better when we're looking at an asset class or a manager if everybody can give their input on an investment committee and our due diligence file as opposed to sort of groupthink. And that's that's again part of our, our, our cyberwarfare, which is differentiated us a little bit from from other participants in the marketplace, which is again, taking a different look for sure.

So where do you see the landscape for alternative investments heading in the next 5 to 10 years? Considering some of the market shifts that we talked about, the march up of interest rates higher for longer? Regulatory changes. I mean, we talked about the desire to have more, pension and investment dollars, private public partnerships, perhaps in infrastructure. Do you see this playing out in terms of creating supply and demand in the marketplace and affecting how perhaps West Court approaches the market over the next period?

Yeah. I mean, I maintain and I'll give you some stats as well. I mean unless you think the Internet or cell phones are a fad, like you think alts are a fad, they're all here to stay.

It's and grow certainly, and grow. And they're going to grow by way of offerings in Canada. They're going to grow by way of

4100 is basically a drop of 50% from 96 to where we are now in number of companies that are public. Okay.

The private equity world took private about 49 public companies in the U.S. last year, and they were still seeing that. There are headlines this weekend about more companies being taken, bases being taken, taken private. So what you have is you have capital formation and you have a very healthy private market alternative ecosystem for capital raising, for access to capital, whether it be private equity, private debt, sophistication, investment banking, corporate finance, all of that used to be the way and the reason of why you took a company public, right. You wanted you wanted multiple expansion, greater liquidity, you wanted to raise money. Everybody, maybe in the eighties got wealthy when you took a company public that is not really the state of the world or the state of markets anymore. Public markets are shrinking and we did a study as well. If you take into consideration North American, but call it predominantly the U.S. markets and Europe over the past 15 years, you have a growth of of sponsored, sponsored backed or private equity backed companies that are growing at about 6% a year, compounding the number of companies. And again, you've got public markets shrinking in the Western world, call it by about 3% a year. So, you know, the headlines are the big tech companies multitrillion dollar companies. But whether it be the S&P, you know, for 94 or for 95, you can really differentiate between the health of the public markets being the U.S. markets on on numbers versus tech technology. But again, the private markets are gargantuan. I think there's a frequent stat as well, speaking specifically about private equity, you know, there'll be about a trillion and a half to $2 trillion added to private equity investments yearly for the next five or six years. That will get us to about 23 or $25 trillion invested, US dollars invested in private equity.

The S&P 500, I think the entire market cap is about 35 trillion. So eventually I even suppose that, you know, you can have a you could have a an equally large private market ecosystem that will that will that will rival the US public markets. I actually think that's that's where we're heading, where there will be a blurring of the lines maybe ten or 20 years from now that the requirement or the the interest or the the shiny bright thing of taking a company public for all those reasons that I mentioned just simply won't exist. You won't need to anymore. And I think we're getting there now.

No, that's a great point. And again, I would say that, even within private equity, there are many, many different areas in focus, etc.. So I know you can't paint with a broad brush, but let's take the V.C. element of private equity, for example. And, you know, we've seen they typically take higher risk and they're more into early stage companies. But we've seen how some moves that haven't worked out in call it in the 2000 etc. created a lack of appetite in venture capital for a period of time. Now we've seen over the last couple of years a very high profile venture capital failures from,

Yes.

from big, big venture capital firms, whether it's a we work or whether in FTX, and those are still playing out in the courts and in bankruptcy and everything else. Do you see there being some kind of chilling effect on the appetite for VCs from VC funds and VC investors? And does that have a knock on effect on other tranches there areas of the private equity or alternative spectrum?

Yeah. This is a really interesting space because exactly what you're highlighting there is a sort of definitely a cycle is the nice way to put it within VC investing. That's been made perfectly clear to us. I mean, we do have a little bit of VC exposure and yes, you went through, you know, whether it be gargantuan valuations in late 20, 20, in 2021, before the wheels came off, as I said in early 2022, enormous valuations, access to very, very cheap debt. It was really the go go years. And then there has to be a repricing. And, you know, you've mentioned the big ones. You get some of these big, big failures and some people scratching their head and say, you know, you know, paying 50, 50 times or 100 times earnings are,

you know, 20 times revenues might not have been the greatest approach to to investing and letting them as the VC will say, grow into their valuation.

Mm hmm.

A that is again coming back to the behavioral side of things, learning about some of these companies and up and coming companies and what they're doing and how they're changing the landscape that that is our day to day People enjoy that. It's stimulating

Yeah. it's a great point. It comes back all down to risk budgeting and allocating accordingly over your portfolio and over a time horizon. Right. So we're coming to the end of our podcast. So, Rob, I have a few final rapidfire questions for you. Number one, professionally, what is the most important lesson you have learned over the years?

keep getting better. Never rest on your laurels. We do pride ourselves on working hard. We've always we're not this. We'll never maintain that. We're the smartest people out there, but we will. That work you and that work will usually uncover some great things, right? That's just turning over as many stones as we can, kissing as many frogs as our toads as there are out there and trying to find the next gem. Yeah, that is definitely the the most important is keep keep working hard. That makes for really, really long hours and long days. And I have a young family that I love and finding that balance is difficult. But yeah, we are not running a lifestyle business. And so I think our clients commend us on when things go well. It's easy to be, as you know, in this industry, it's easy to be an advisor when times times are easy.

Mm

It really is. It's own

hmm.

your only judge in these periods of stress, which then I think solidifies, to borrow an overused term, a trusting relationship. Because if I put myself in the of a of a client,it's like, okay, yeah, well I want my advisor rolling up their sleeves and working there. They're there, but often really difficult times. What else can you ask for? So yeah, never, never stop moving. Be the shark, right? You have to keep swimming for sure.

Do the work. That's great advice.

Yep.

Number two, what is one practical tip you would offer listeners keen on applying some of the insights that you've shared today?

One, give me a call to that. That's a plug. But two, I think it's just to continue to be curious. These types of offerings are slowly permeating their way through different investment channels, different firms, whether it be the banks, the big asset managers, the big wealth managers, etc.. So continue to ask questions. Continue do what do you know the most simple do Do you as a firm, have access to alternatives? What should I know about them? Right. And if someone I will or I'll pick on the detractors a little bit. If someone says, Oh, you don't need this

question that right? Because all they're saying is you don't you don't need all these other asset classes. You can be just fine with, you know, these two being stocks and bonds. Yeah. Keep keep digging on that one. Keep, keep poking because that would be the most boring. Be curious and ask those questions.

Awesome. Rob, this has been a great chat. I've really enjoyed it with some interesting insights for the audience. If listeners want to learn more about you or find out about your work, where do they go?

Yeah. They can always look us up at West Court capital dot com or write me at RJ at West Court Capital dot com. We'd be more than happy to have these types of conversations because we're passionate about it. We've been doing it for a long time. We don't have a monopoly on good ideas and so we will always endeavor to, to have that conversation and, and chat about in any capacity.

Awesome. Rob, thank you for joining us today and a future ready advisor.

Thanks. I appreciate it.