Shownotes
EP01: Our world runs on plastic, possibly one of the most versatile materials man has ever created. Unfortunately, it is wreaking havoc on our environment and our health. In this episode, we sit down with Ranah Chavoshi, a marine biologist with expertise in aquatic toxicology and seaweed agriculture. Ranah shares her journey, from experimenting in her kitchen to launching a groundbreaking biotechnology company. Join us as we dive into the unique promise of seaweed in reducing our dependence on plastic, and how her innovations are making headlines and positioning Canada as a global leader in sustainable innovation.
We talk to visionaries and game-changers who are doing things differently; using their businesses to do more good in the world. Join us as we dive into the stories and strategies of companies driven by purpose, not just profit. Each episode uncovers unique strategies, challenges, and the deeply satisfying rewards of using business as a platform for change. We offer listeners practical insights on building businesses that are not only successful but also socially and environmentally conscious. You really can make both profit and a positive impact—come join us to find out how others are doing just that.
About Ranah
Ranah is a marine biologist specializing in aquatic toxicology and seaweeds. She has over 8 years of working in academia, industry, and non-profits conducting research, community-led ecological restoration, and teaching. She also advocates for equity, diversity and inclusion in science and innovation. She is currently the co-founder and CEO of PhyCo Technologies Inc., a marine biotechnology company that focuses on developing biomaterials from seaweed grown in partnership with Indigenous Nations.
Where to find Ranah
Leena Manro is an award-winning writer, director, and co-founder of All Purpose, an award winning B Corp-certified creative agency based in Vancouver. As VP of Strategy and Storytelling, she leads an in-house team that creates powerful, purpose-driven media for corporate clients. With over a decade of experience, Leena has directed hundreds of narrative projects across diverse genres, earning awards for their cinematic quality and storytelling depth.
Leena is driven by a passion to make a meaningful difference in her community, environment and the planet. She’s drawn to collaborating with people and initiatives that strive to make the world a better place.
All Purpose is proud to be B Corp certified. B Corps are companies verified to meet high standards of social and environmental performance, transparency, and accountability. The B Corp Movement transforms our economy to benefit all people, communities and the planet.
Through this podcast, one of our aims is to showcase the impactful work of fellow B Corps, to inspire others to embrace purpose-driven practices that make a difference.
We would love to hear from you! Send us an email: uptosogood@allpurpose.io or follow us on LinkedIn . Let us know what you think of the podcast and if you have any topic or guest suggestions.
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Listen to Up to So Good: The Purpose of Business
Up to So Good: The Purpose of Business is produced by All Purpose; a creative design and media agency located in Vancouver Canada. Follow the link to find out more about who we are and what we do.
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Transcripts
Welcome to Up To So Good, the podcast that unlocks the secrets of creating a purpose-driven business, so we can all make this world a better place. Come join the conversation. Hello and welcome to Up To So Good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. I'm your host, Leena Manro, also one of the co-founders of All Purpose, a proud certified B-corp. I'm excited about our guest today, Ranah Chavoshi. She's the CEO of PhyCo Technologies. She basically went from creating plastic out of seaweed in these experiments in her kitchen, to creating a product that is disrupting the agricultural industry. Stay tuned because in this episode we talk not only about Ranah and her journey and the creation of these eco-friendly plastics, but also the effect of ingesting microplastics and what you can do about it. Enjoy the episode. My name is Leena Manro and I'm here with Ranah Chavoshi, who is the CEO and one of the founders, I believe, of PhyCo.
Ranah:Yes. Yeah, I'm the co-founder and CEO of PhyCo Technologies Inc. We're a Canadian company that's B2B, and focused on biomaterials in the agricultural sector.
Leena:Biomaterials in agricultural sector, but specifically your company produces, I guess, plastic products out of?
Ranah:Seaweed.
Leena:Seaweed.
Ranah:Yeah, seaweed. Yeah, we do. So we primarily use seaweed to make our products as digestible and non-toxic, and that can be ultimately cycled back into our environment and ecosystems. And we use seaweed directly grown in partnership with indigenous nations on our coastal communities.
Leena:Okay. What kinds of plastic products do you make?
Ranah:So our flagship product is a mimic of polyethylene. So it's that thin film plastic that you see everywhere, it's clear, it's translucent, it's very flexible. And that's one of the most commonly used plastics in the world, it's one of the most commonly used in agriculture as well. So we're trying to replace that as our first product, but we've developed other ones as well.
Leena:Okay.
Ranah:So one of our products was an accident in the lab, and we realized, well, actually this is a second product, so we're going to bring that out in the future, but-
Leena:Can you talk about that?
Ranah:Yeah. It's just we're developing a coating as well.
Leena:A what?
Ranah:A coating.
Leena:A coating?
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:Okay. Coating for?
Ranah:It can be used for so many applications. So for example, if you're thinking of a coffee cup, even if it's a paper coffee cup-
Leena:Oh, the inside.
Ranah:... the inside is actually lined with plastic.
Leena:Oh?
Ranah:So most people don't know that. If it says paper on the outside-
Leena:But it's plastic in the inside.
Ranah:... it's plastic on the inside.
Leena:Okay.
Ranah:Which is really concerning.
Leena:That's very concerning-
Ranah:... because bringing a hot beverage in there. Yeah, so that's for example, one application.
Leena:And that was an accident?
Ranah:That was an accident.
Leena:What happened?
Ranah:It just didn't work. Instead of making a film, we made a coating. So it just happens. And so that's the amazing thing, is that you pivot your dynamic. You say, okay, well, if this is a failure, well, actually it's an innovation.
Leena:In my family, we feel like my third sibling was an accident. But we love her. My parents went on to have two more, so I get it.
Ranah:Yeah, there you go.
Leena:Sometimes an accident-
Ranah:Happy accidents.
Leena:Happy accidents. So there's so much, we're going to talk about so many things here. I want to know... First of all, your story is really interesting. I've just been reading a little bit about how you went to Malaysia and had sort of this epiphany, this life-changing sort of aha moment. But this has really been only around for a few years. PhyCo Technologies is quite young.
Ranah:Yeah, we're a young early stage startup, so we've still got a ways to go. But you're right, the story did start in Malaysia.
Leena:So tell me what happened.
Ranah:Yeah. So my background, I'm a marine biologist, so for me-
Leena:You're an actual marine biologist?
Ranah:Yes, I am.
Leena:Do you know how many kids say when they grow up, I want to be a marine biologist?
Ranah:And then you do it.
Leena:You're a marine biologist.
Ranah:Yeah, I'm the kid that never really grew up, I guess. So yeah, no, I am a marine biologist and I specialize in seaweeds and toxicology, that's where my specialties lie. And after I finished my degree, I wanted to travel a bit and was tired of where I was working, I wanted a bit of a change, and I wanted to do a bit of soul-searching. So I also wanted to learn to scuba dive because what marine biologist doesn't know how to scuba dive? So I went to Malaysia, I got my license there. And I was reading the history of Jacques Cousteau, who's one of the world's most famous marine biologists and conservationists, and he has a list that he wrote, that has the top 10 scuba diving sites in the world. And this one island called Sipadan, Malaysia. It's an oceanic island, 100 kilometers off the coast of Borneo, Malaysia, and it's stunning. It's got beautiful, beautiful coral reefs, so many different types of megafauna like sharks and manta rays. It's stunning.
Ranah:And to get there, you have to go through the port city of Semporna. And I arrived there at night, and I remember seeing the city in a bit of a haze. It smelled a little funny to me, and I was confused, but I just went to bed. And I went to bed, and I woke up the next day looking for scuba diving shop. And usually they're lined along the beachfronts, so I ended up walking down the streets and started to see a lot of plastic on the street. The smell I was smelling the night before, was people burning plastic. And the haze that I was seeing was from plastic being burned and the pollution of that.
Ranah:So when I got to the beachfront, instead of seeing this beautiful pristine beach that you would expect, I saw a sea of plastic and it really... That moment shook me, it really changed my perspective on the way that we exist in the world and our relationship to the world in terms of plastic. And yeah, I think that really stuck with me, and I came back to Canada naively thinking that we're not part of the problem. I was very undereducated in terms of where plastics were in terms of the global realm of the problem, and realized that we contribute a lot to this problem. As a country, we export a lot of our ways to developing countries like Malaysia, so we are responsible for that.
Leena:How did that bring you here? How did it bring you to PhyCo Technologies?
Ranah:Yeah, I think it was the pandemic and a lot of... I was doing my master's degree at the time, and I wasn't able to go out to my field sites, we had to shut down a lot of things. But that being said, when I was able to do the field work, I noticed there was plastic popping up in places that I'd never seen at my sample site before. I started seeing masks, I saw gloves, I saw personal protective equipment at the beach. And it caused a flashback to that, and I said, how is this from five years ago, we're still in the same spot and we're completely forgetting about how plastic impacts our world? And it hit me one day as I was thinking about seaweed and how it could be used and I had some in my house, and I made my first prototype in my kitchen because I had nothing else to do.
Leena:So you made plastic in your kitchen from seaweed?
Ranah:Yes. It was a very early prototype, but I just played around with it and processed it, and made it into a seaweed. And I was like, "Wow, I can make this into a film. I wonder if I could iterate this process and I'll get-"
Leena:Can we all do that? Can we all just go get some seaweed to make plastic at home?
Ranah:You could. It's not going to be the world's best plastic, I'll guarantee you that. But you can. You can make a film at home just as a nice science experiment. If you have kids, it's always fun trying it. But to get it to the scale of where we're at now, it's definitely taken a bit of time.
Leena:Yeah, of course. Okay, so let's go back to Malaysia for a second. Is this an anomaly in that part of the world because of the way the ocean currents carry-
Ranah:The ocean gyres?
Leena:Yeah. Well, okay, though I did not know that was... Yes. Can you break it down for us?
Ranah:Yeah, for sure. So it comes down to a lot of issues. So one, we're mass-producing plastics like we've never done before. And let's not forget, plastic was invented in the 1950s, originally called Bakelite. It's an incredible innovation. It is, if you think about what we're able to do with it. But we have to be responsible with it. And so what has happened is that we've overproduced it and we don't know what to do with it at the end of life. And the problem with this pollution is that a lot of plastic around the world doesn't get recycled, less than 6%. The rest ends up in landfills, waste to energy facilities, the environment, and it's hard to track where it goes. We end up shipping a lot of it, as I said earlier.
Ranah:So basically what happens is that when a lot of plastic does end up ending up in the environment, there are these currents that exist in the ocean, and what ends up happening is that it creates these sort of islands that are in the middle of the ocean, and some of these islands are massive. I believe one of the size references is that one of them is the size of Texas, which is incredible.
Leena:Wow.
Ranah:And it's a huge problem. It's a huge, huge problem because it falls into international water sometimes, so it becomes a question of whose responsibility is it? But really, it's our collective responsibility. And it's not just there. We even have it here in some of our remote areas of British Columbia, where we don't have a lot of inhabitants there in terms of human inhabitants. We see a lot of waste show up. We see styrofoam, we see buoys from boats, fishing nets, ghost gear is a huge problem. So it's everywhere, it's not just in these developing countries. We're fortunate that we have slightly better systems over here to manage our waste, but we still face the same problems.
Leena:Now, you were saying that you work in partnership with Indigenous communities. Can you tell me more?
Ranah:Yeah, absolutely.
Leena:How so?
Ranah:The model we wanted to work with is to really focus on the communities that get impacted by climate change first. These are the communities at the forefront of climate change. They're often the communities that do the most conservation work around the world. And so there's a lot of folks who care deeply about the environment, it's part of their worldviews. They have incredible knowledge about their local ecosystems. They're an incredibly skilled labor force. And one of the issues in these communities is that economic resiliency is very difficult, obviously, because of the impacts of colonization. So when I started thinking about PhyCo, for me it was really important to ensure that if this is a new and emergent industry in North America, how can we do it in a way that benefits these communities? Because if we think about other industries in the ocean sector, we've often forgotten these communities. And working with them for us is a priority, it's engaging right away, building relationships over time, asking what the community's wants and needs are, and working together to accomplish those needs.
Leena:But specifically, what is that partnership? What does it look like? Do you find that... Are you working with these communities to source some of the-
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:Okay.
Ranah:Yeah, we're working with them to help build up the infrastructure and source the seaweed. We work with one nation that's sustainably harvests wild seaweed as well, just in the interim until you can get the licensing to put seaweed farms out there in the water. So those are the ways that we work together. And other relationships, we've worked on invasive seaweed, mapping together to use invasive seaweeds as a possible input to our products. So we've worked collaboratively with the Tsleil-Waututh Nation as well.
Leena:Okay, amazing.
Ranah:Partnerships like that, where it's meaningful.
Leena:You're doing something so incredible. The point of this particular podcast is really about exploring business as something that can be very purposeful, intentional, and can have positive impact in the world. And what you're doing, clearly, PhyCo Technologies is doing that. But I also think just as we're talking, it feels like you as a person are doing that, you're leading a purpose-filled life. Would you agree?
Ranah:I'm trying to. I think we do our best. I think my co-founder and I try our best, that's for sure. I think it's important too. We live in a world right now, that's facing some consequences of our collective human histories.
Leena:Oh, yes, absolutely.
Ranah:So I think individual actions can go so far obviously, but collectively, we can use certain mechanisms like business to do well.
Leena:And is this what you wanted to do when you studied marine biology and toxicology?
Ranah:No, I never in my mind thought I would be an entrepreneur. That is something that I just sort of fell into. My co-founder and I often joke, we were disgruntled academics, and we wanted to... I think we were both frustrated in that we did so much work in environmental conservation and education, and research on how... For example, my thesis in my masters was how oil products impact our marine environments. So for me to do that research and then see how far it could get in terms of making an influence of how we can conserve marine ecosystems when it comes to these kinds of developmental projects, I was getting frustrated by seeing things not move forward, and this was an opportunity for me to take direct action. And industry is faster than a lot of other sectors that are in the ecosystem of our, I guess, collective environment.
Leena:That may be government organizations and-
Ranah:Yeah. I mean, change is slow. No matter what, change is always slow, and I think government... There's cycles of government that we go through. So for me, it was really important to find a mechanism that would allow me to develop a product quickly, develop relationships over time at a reasonable rate, because working with Indigenous nations, that takes time, it takes nuance to build those complex relationships. So I think it was an avenue for me to act quickly, that's a way that... I'm the type of person where I see something, if something is wrong, I want to fix it.
Leena:Yes, yes, yes.
Ranah:And I take that back to the way I was raised, because my dad also had his own company and he was a carpenter who always fixed things. So for me, I think that kind of was instilled and to this day, I think that's the way my mind thinks.
Leena:I love what you said there. Well, why do you think that is? That in industry that ended up happening a little bit more quickly, that action, you were able to take it a little faster?
Ranah:Yeah, I think innovation is just... It always moves fast, it always does. And if you're developing something that is an actual solution to a problem, people want it, they're more willing to try it and pilot things out, and then build and grow from there, and actually scale products and solutions that can work.
Leena:At the end of the day, money talks.
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:And if they can see potential for profit. Because this does seem to be there's an opportunity here.
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:Did you encounter that in your pursuit of partners?
Ranah:Yeah, absolutely. I think there are people who are driven by the bottom line. Some people say cash is king. It still is for some people in some places.
Leena:Because I think this is... This sounds like could be very lucrative.
Ranah:I think it can be profitable. Our goal is to make it sustainable over the long term. We see a lot of tech and innovation right now just take off to the moon in terms of quick growth. And for us, because we work with Indigenous nations, because we're working in a new sector, I think it's important to go at a reasonable pace. You can still be quick, but you have to be smart and you have to be strategic.
Leena:And responsible.
Ranah:And responsible.
Leena:Yeah, that's true.
Ranah:We have to be able to be responsible.
Leena:So in our exploration, our company, we're a benefit corporation, we're a B-corp. And as an impact agency, what we find is that within impact circles, sometimes profit is a dirty word.
Ranah:I don't think it needs to be a dirty word.
Leena:I don't think so either.
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:Because you can coexist. Having that profit can really help with creating these incredibly innovative and sustainable solutions, and shouldn't be a dirty word.
Ranah:We're at a point in our history, where we have to make some tough decisions. And sometimes they're not always going to be the quick, easy decisions that can make a lot of cash up front. They're ones that take more time, they're ones that are sustainable and can make money over longer periods of time.
Leena:Yeah, absolutely.
Ranah:And that's good business. Sustainable business is good business.
Leena:Extremely good business. Yeah. You were always fascinated by nature, environments?
Ranah:Yeah. We are privileged to live in Vancouver, we're in one of the most beautiful places in the world. We have nature's backyard just out here. We're one of the greenest cities in the world. So for me, I just grew up in it. I grew up appreciating it. I had a love for animals and being outside, and getting my hands dirty. So for me, I went into biology to study that and figure out how I, as a scientist could help preserve that and make it better. And so I ended up working in a lot of different fields to figure out what is it that I really wanted in science. So I worked with birds, I worked with bees, I worked in ecology and conservation as a whole, I worked in environmental education. I've done EDI work as well-
Leena:Oh, yes. Beautiful, wow.
Ranah:... in academia and in the industry. So for me, marine science was the most interesting. I think seaweeds, I'm a bit hypocritical because when I first sat in my class, I remember sitting in it and being like, "Oh, this is kind of dull. I don't know if I want to study this for the rest of my life." And I've been working with seaweeds for eight years.
Leena:Being an entrepreneur, you understand the science behind it. You're a scientist, you understand the product you're working with, the benefit to the world as well as working with the communities. But 50% of the business or more, maybe 80% is actually business.
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:So you didn't have any training in business and any of that. So what was that experience like, being dropped into as a CEO, as an entrepreneur? I'd say probably 80, 90% of your job is business. Is it?
Ranah:It is, it is. And it's been a big learning curve. So I mentioned I worked for my dad, he had his own business, so I learned a lot from him. I worked in part-time jobs where I was doing customer relations and management and sales, for example, so I gained those skills over time. But I think for entrepreneurship, there's no right way to do it.
Leena:No, that's true.
Ranah:Nobody has the textbook on it. And you can read a bunch of books about entrepreneurship, but every business is so distinct and unique, there's no one right way of doing it. And so we've done a lot of... My co-founder and I have done a lot of training programs specifically for women-led companies, to help us get to that level of being CEOs and CSOs, and building up our company and understanding finance and sales and marketing, and all those strategic tactics that you need to meet your metrics and all of those. So it's been an uphill battle. Not an battle, but a learning curve. It's been fun, if anything, because I have a love of learning, and this is just something else that I'm learning. And it's not in a classroom, so it's a bit more... I guess it's more engaging. It's more fun for me to learn in that regard.
Leena:And so much of entrepreneurship is learning actually, on the job. And so when you look back at when you... You've only really started this only in the last few years. Is there anything that you would do differently now that you know what you know?
Ranah:Yeah, there's always mistakes you make, and things that you learn. And I think for us, what was really key is building out our team. Finding the right people for sure is critical. Folks who understand the mission and the values of what you're doing, that's so key. I think one thing that I learned is to not let your imposter syndrome get to you.
Leena:That's a big one.
Ranah:As women, we deal with that a lot.
Leena:We do.
Ranah:I've dealt with it as a scientist, I've dealt with it as an entrepreneur. And so not doubting yourself and maybe being a bit more forward and really asking forthright what you need and want, I think those are certain things to get projects off the ground for whatever reason, to just simply ask, these are our needs. Can you help us achieve these needs?
Leena:I think you're right about that. I think a lot of women in particular, but I know a lot of men face it too.
Ranah:Yeah, I think everybody does.
Leena:I think the moment you get into you... When you're thrust into an arena that you hadn't even intended initially to go down. A lot of us in entrepreneurship, that wasn't necessarily what we were aiming to do, right? And it's natural, people are going to feel like you just said, imposter syndrome, that they are imposters. And I so agree with you, that is something absolutely people need to fight against. And what were some of the ways, the strategies that you engaged in to help you fight that?
Ranah:I think just believing in myself that I'm on the right path, that I'm doing the right thing, I think just that reaffirmation really helped. Getting the support I needed from my mentors and-
Leena:Mentorship, absolutely. Yeah.
Ranah:Mentorship is really key.
Leena:Mentorship, absolutely. Because people who've already been down that path. It doesn't have to be the identical path you're on, but someone who's gone forward, started their own business in whatever way, if you can find a good mentor, I agree with you. I think that helps annihilate so much of that feeling of that imposter syndrome and all, because everyone's been there.
Ranah:Yeah, exactly. And I attribute a lot of where I am to one of my mentors in particular, Alan Shapiro. He was a mentor very early on while I was in this transition phase of trying to figure out what the next steps were for myself. And he kind of slowly... I'm blanking on the word here, but just kind of pushed me towards this avenue of entrepreneurship without me even knowing it. So he was just... Subconsciously, I think he kind of pushed me a little bit to towards starting PhyCo.
Leena:Oh, wow. Really?
Ranah:Yeah. So I think he did kind of guide me in that direction. I owe a lot to him.
Leena:Was it your idea, or was it a group-
Ranah:Yes.
Leena:Oh, it was your idea?
Ranah:It was mine, mm-hmm.
Leena:And was it hard to find co-founders and partners?
Ranah:No, actually. It's a very funny story how I met my co-founder. We met online during the pandemic. We were at an ocean networking event that was online, and we were the only two women at a table, and we were getting talked over a fair bit, which was a bit frustrating. And I could see her frustration, and she saw mine, and we both... There's that look that women give each other like, "Yep, this is happening." It's a frequent thing, unfortunately. But she reached out to me for this idea challenge that we did, and we decided to work together. And we said, if we work together and win, then we'll continue. We'll try out for six more months. And then we won, we realized we worked exceptionally well together.
Leena:Wow.
Ranah:And we decided to start a company. My half of the company is the seaweed side and the toxicology side, her expertise is the marine natural products and microbiology side. So-
Leena:Incredible.
Ranah:... really lucky in how we balance things out.
Leena:Such a good partnership.
Ranah:Yeah, it's a beautiful partnership.
Leena:What has been your primary source of funding?
Ranah:We've been really fortunate with non-dilutive funding. So that's where we've gotten 100% of our funding, a little bit of my own personal cash as well as my co-founder's. So we've put our blood, sweat and tears into this company-
Leena:Yeah, literally.
Ranah:... and we've been really lucky to get where we're at. So yeah, we will be looking at investment in the future, but for right now, it's been exclusively non-dilutive.
Leena:It's been okay.
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:And do you have clients?
Ranah:We have customers, yes. We are in the process of signing LOIs with those customers, and we're sending samples and going to be scaling up our production to send them even more samples.
Leena:This is so exciting.
Ranah:Yeah, we're at a really busy time.
Leena:Oh, my gosh.
Ranah:We've done a lot of customer discovery, and so we were focused on particular sectors in the agriculture sector, like sub-sectors. And what we found is there are folks already piloting out, or have tried to pilot out some products that just didn't work, and they are a little bit more expensive. Ours is going to be a little bit more expensive. It will be-
Leena:In the beginning
Ranah:... probably in the beginning.
Leena:Until it really scales.
Ranah:Exactly. But what happens with our product is, since it's being used in agriculture, why we're so focused on it being able to break down and compostable and non-toxic, is so that the farmers can save money. Because if you think about a farm, let's talk about, say mushroom farmers, for example. If we all love mushrooms here, they're great button mushrooms are fantastic, Canada's a great mushroom grower. And what the process of that is taking mushrooms, growing them at a commercial scale usually requires some plastic going over the mushrooms for a period of two to four weeks. From there, the farmers have to use labor to remove it manually, clean it, sort it, and then take it to the dump. And that costs a lot of money for folks.
Leena:Yeah, I see.
Ranah:Labor is in short supply, and they don't want to be spending their time with their labor focused on cleaning up plastic, they want to be using it to maximize their crop yields. So for our product, what it does is actually save them money when they use it, because all they have to do is remove it and throw it in their compost. That's it. So we save them money in terms of labor and land filling fees.
Leena:Amazing. So what has the response been like?
Ranah:Great.
Leena:Yeah? Great response.
Ranah:Yeah. We're sending out samples right now to our early adopters, and we're in the process of doing that. So we're hoping to get more feedback, of course, but generally if... Margins for farmers are really tight, so if there's ways to save money for them, they're receptive. If you can save people money, that's where it matters.
Leena:But then how did you get this out there? Did you just knock on doors? Did you go knocking on the farmer's-
Ranah:Well, fortunately, both my co-founder and I know a lot of farmers. Before I became a fully fledged marine biologist, I-
Leena:Okay, I need to guess. Wait a second. No.
Ranah:I actually worked in pollination ecology.
Leena:Of course you did. Yes.
Ranah:Yeah. So I worked at the blueberry farms out in Langley and Chilliwack, doing research on them and how bees would impact crop yields. And so I also saw the amount of waste coming out of agriculture, and I think that's where my mind went when I thought of plastic, is which sector would need this? And for us, it was a no-brainer. And so we know farmers, I know farmers. We've met other folks as well who've introduced us to people who are already doing amazing work. So I think if you're putting out good work, people will hear about it and then they end up contacting you. And that's been the case for some of our earliest adopters.
Leena:That's a really good point. And I would agree with that. I think that that's truly one of those things, it's this... Okay, we are filming in the All Purpose vault, and that's because A, the acoustics are really good in here. But B, it's to talk about the little secrets of good business. And one of those secrets is... It sounds a little bit woo, woo, okay? But there's these hidden forces that come together when you're doing impact work or good business and people do find you, and people do come together. And that's amazing when that happens, you can amplify those good business practices and those products and services.
Ranah:Exactly. And that's what one of my earliest mentors, Brianne Miller, who was the former founder of NADA, if you remember the zero waste grocery store. That's exactly what she told me when I first started. She said, "If you just do the good work, good people will show up." And it's proven to be true.
Leena:I love that.
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:So what challenges have you faced though, while you've been on this journey?
Ranah:Yeah, I think with any kind of innovation, people are always wary of new things because some folks, when you see something like what we're working on, you have to be careful, and a lot of folks can just write you off and say you're greenwashing or-
Leena:And it seems almost too good to be true.
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:It is true.
Ranah:Yeah, it's true.
Leena:It's a true product, it's amazing product. This is real. But it seems too good to be true.
Ranah:It does, but we're working our hardest to make sure that it is true.
Leena:It is true.
Ranah:Yeah. So I think yeah, being in the environmental climate tech kind of space is always challenging, it's very competitive. There's some really amazing innovations out there. And I think seaweed can be one solution. If we're fighting climate change and plastic pollution, it's one tool in our toolbox. We have a lot of amazing companies that are doing amazing things with different materials, so seaweed is one of them. You can do amazing things with mushrooms, with food waste, with hemp. These are incredible inputs that we can be using to help fight climate change.
Leena:To create things like plastics or anything, clothing?
Ranah:Plastics, foams, clothing.
Leena:Right.
Ranah:Yeah, we need a fundamental shift in how we source our materials. And we have to recognize what we've done in the past doesn't work, we're running out of resources.
Leena:Source them and I suppose processing them, right?
Ranah:Yeah. It's very chemically intensive. So what we work on, or what we're working on specifically right now is to green our process. Because traditionally to process seaweed, you have to dry it, and then you have to process it using some intensive chemicals. So we use green chemistry. It's just using less, I don't want to say toxic, but just less intensive chemicals.
Leena:Gotcha. Yeah. Because the thing about plastic, it's more than just the traditional petroleum-based product. Plastics is not biodegradable, but the processing of it is also so chemically intense that even that can really harm the environment.
Ranah:Yeah. It's very carbon intensive.
Leena:Yeah. So the natural or... I don't want to say natural, I guess, sort of this greener technology in processing it, you've got the benefit of using natural sources?
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:And the processing is also less-
Ranah:Less intense.
Leena:... chemical intense.
Ranah:Yeah. Yeah.
Leena:What's your outlook? Are you hopeful?
Ranah:Yeah, I am. I am. I think seaweed is very popular right now. If you talk to me four years ago, I was often the only person in a room talking about seaweed, now people are excited about it. They see the impacts and potential it has for positive community impacts as well as environmental impacts. So I think it can be a tool, as I said, to create positive change, and I'm really excited because more people are talking about it. And I think it went through a little bit of a hype cycle, but we're becoming more realistic about what's possible, and I'm excited to see what happens from there.
Leena:And I've heard you referred to as the Kelp Khaleesi.
Ranah:Yeah, it's just a joke.
Leena:I love it.
Ranah:Yeah, it's a fun little moniker. Yeah. Some people called me Kelp Girl, and I was like, "I'm not a girl. I'm the Khaleesi."
Leena:Hell no, you're the Khaleesi. I love that. I love being a Khaleesi too. I've got the white hair, I mean.
Ranah:Gorgeous.
Leena:Thank you, man. I'm just the All Purpose Khaleesi.
Ranah:Rocking the silver hair.
Leena:Kelp Khaleesi sounds better.
Ranah:Yeah, it's fun. It's just a fun [inaudible 00:30:08]
Leena:Except for that the end episode, you watched all Game of Thrones, I don't want you to-
Ranah:Yeah, I don't want to go that far.
Leena:I don't want to spoil it, but what were they thinking? What were they thinking?
Ranah:Yeah, I'm not going Daenerys level of chaos. That was too much, unfortunately,
Leena:Kelp Khaleesi until season five.
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:So what advice would you have for people who are starting off? Because you know what, there's a lot of... They might not be Kelp Khaleesis, but there are Khaleesis and what are some other hero names? I don't know, Thors, I don't know, out there who have a vision and idea, but it's just they don't know where to start. What would you say?
Ranah:I mean, for me, it was passion. It really is at the end of the day, what drives me is the passion to do the right thing and save our planet. That's why I wake up every day and the first thing I think about is how can we make this world a better place? How can my work cause a positive impact in my community? So that's the first thing I think, is that you have to have the passion, you got to be passionate about what you do. And just perseverance and being able to be dynamic and changing, because I think entrepreneurship is one of the hardest jobs in the world, I've certainly experienced how difficult it can be. It's also really rewarding as well. I think you grow with your company as a founder, and so there are points where you have to make critical choices and make inflection points, and make heart decisions and pivot, and move all of that. So it takes perseverance and grit. It really takes a lot of grit.
Leena:I think more people want to hear your story and PhyCo Technologies and where this came from, because this is actually the type of enterprise and industry that's going to save the planet. It just is. It has to be. More and more industry has to do stuff like this, get behind products and experiences that are sustainable and responsible and save our planet.
Ranah:Exactly.
Leena:They just have to. And I think unfortunately, the only thing that's going to get them and push them into it, if there's dollar signs behind it.
Ranah:Yeah. I think it's the dollar signs, but I think it's also an emotional aspect as well. We are experiencing climate change right now, and so I think people want to change, they want to make the right decisions.
Leena:Oh, some do.
Ranah:Some.
Leena:I would say the climate change deniers might have a different opinion.
Ranah:Yeah. Well, those are outliers, right? And I think if those folks are engaged in a proper way, then we can see those impacts. Especially when you're living through the impacts yourself, I think a lot of folks realize that it is climate change. If we think about the heat waves we've experienced, the fires, the flooding, the temperature extremes that we're seeing now. As to when I started as a student studying in my second year, I had a professor actually who showed us data of what Vancouver and BC would look like in 10 years time, and what he predicted 10 years ago is happening.
Leena:Oh my gosh. Well, I don't have the data in terms of... I wish I'd armed myself with it now that we're talking about it. But I would like to know what that percentage of the climate sort of deniers, the climate change deniers is? Because actually, I don't know that it's outliers. I still think there's a battle out there where even in the media, mainstream or alternative, there's a forum for people to talk about all kinds of things. And this idea of oh, there are two sides to this perspective. There are people who are talking about climate change, and then there's those who are arguing that it's not that statistically relevant.
Ranah:I think there's been a couple of really good studies from Yale that came out, and they do a general consensus in surveys of the populace in the US, that's usually one of the better studies. And they're finding there is a shift. I think when you start experiencing the impacts of climate change, people start realizing.
Leena:Oh, I see.
Ranah:And even farmers for example, they're seeing it on the ground every day. They're seeing it in their crop yields. They're seeing it impact with extreme weathers. And even just here locally in BC, we had that huge cold snap earlier in the year, which basically impacted our fruit that we get throughout the season, so we barely had any cherries or peaches or apricots. So even farmers who usually are a bit hesitant politically, and perhaps even a little conservative in some cases, are seeing these impacts and they're recognizing this, and it's coming up at these conferences, at these agricultural conferences saying, we're hitting droughts. We're losing our crops to pests that we've never seen before. So people are seeing it, and when they can see it and experience it-
Leena:That makes sense.
Ranah:... that's when people start caring, chat about that.
Leena:Why is there so much greenwashing in this space?
Ranah:Well, it's a lack of regulations, I think. And so for example, you mentioned biodegradability. So you can say anything is biodegradable. Plastic is technically biodegradable because it does break down. But the problem is that it breaks down in ten-
Leena:For a million years or something?
Ranah:It takes time for it to break down, and it persists as microplastics and nanoplastics, and all of that. So it stays in our ecosystems. It's in our bodies, which is extremely concerning. As a toxicologist, that concerns me because we know it's there, but we don't know the impacts yet. And so that's part of the issue with why there is a lot of greenwashing, is that you can create a plastic product that is made from say, corn or starch or whatnot, and then you're using a petroleum-based plasticizer. And so that's considered compostable or biodegradable-
Leena:Oh, wow.
Ranah:... because there's not very many clear guidelines or even definitions that allow for that.
Leena:And companies don't have to be transparent?
Ranah:I think the ways to be transparent are through certifications. But we have to realize those certifications are for particular setting. So if something is saying that it's compostable, it has a stamp saying this is compostable, that means in an industrial setting. And not every jurisdiction has that industrial setting. So what happens with a lot of these products is that they're out on the shelf and people will buy them and then throw them in the compost. But when it ends up at the compost facility, it ends up gumming up the machinery, or it ends up bringing the quality of the actual compost down, it brings the grade of compost to be lower. So this is a huge problem. And that's why, for example, the city of Vancouver doesn't want bioplastics in the compost stream. It actually ends up just going in the waste.
Leena:Wow.
Ranah:So it's a huge problem and there needs to be, I think, better regulations for this. And I think their provincial government is working on it right now. But I'd like to see that.
Leena:And also maybe better education too.
Ranah:Absolutely.
Leena:Because I think a lot of people are doing the best they can. They don't know.
Ranah:Yeah, education.
Leena:This is the first I'm hearing. I didn't know that.
Ranah:Yeah, it's a huge problem. I think there's a lack of education. There's problems with regulation, and there are some folks that are bad players in the ecosystem, that are just putting products out and saying things but in fact, greenwashing.
Leena:You know those compostable bags you can get for your compost?
Ranah:Mm-hmm.
Leena:Are you saying those gum up the system?
Ranah:Those ones are good for industrial compost, because those are BPI certified.
Leena:But they're sold as a home product.
Ranah:I believe those ones are compostable in an industrial compost.
Leena:In an industrial compost.
Ranah:Because there's different levels of compostability as well. So there's home compost, there's industrial compost. So you just have to-
Leena:So if you live in an apartment complex and you have a compost bin, is that an industrial compost?
Ranah:It depends. That's the thing as well, is that it depends on who the company is, that's picking it up.
Leena:Oh my gosh. Nobody knows anything.
Ranah:And it's a huge problem.
Leena:I don't know anything.
Ranah:But generally, yes, if it's getting picked up by a commercial entity, usually that's industrial compost, but that's not always the case. We are very bad at managing our waste as a society. We're quite poor at it.
Leena:Yes.
Ranah:So that's a huge improvement that we need. And I think over time it will improve, but we need people to be good actors in the first place.
Leena:And I think we need to have people waste less.
Ranah:Yeah, absolutely.
Leena:We're just so consumer driven.
Ranah:We live in a culture of convenience. We do. We can go to a coffee shop, grab a coffee and walk around with it instead of sitting there and drinking it. That's very different. You can buy things with a simple click. We are consuming so much, and I think we need a fundamental societal shift to change that.
Leena:Why do you think that is?
Ranah:I think we're going to have to give up some of our convenience and luxury. It's unfortunate.
Leena:No, I mean, why is it that we consume so much?
Ranah:It's a great question.
Leena:I mean, doesn't it point to a hole in our soul?
Ranah:I think so.
Leena:There's something lacking, and so you try to fill it by consuming, consuming. But maybe people had more purpose.
Ranah:Yeah, it could be that. I think that is part of it. I definitely think that's part of it. I think it's a systems problem though too. If we think about the economic systems that we operate in, we're in a neoliberal capitalist economy where the economy only does well when we're buying things.
Leena:That's so true.
Ranah:If we stop buying things, we're going to hit some really big problems in terms of our economy.
Leena:Yeah, it's true. It's both.
Ranah:Yeah. So that's where I think business needs to fundamentally change. I think that's where a company like PhyCo is working towards and finding a model that is different, that doesn't just focus on exorbitant growth. Sustainable growth, that's the key, I think.
Leena:We were talking a little bit about ways that we can reduce our consumption of plastic. And fast fashion, there is a lot of plastic in clothing and textiles, and polyester.
Ranah:Yes.
Leena:Right?
Ranah:Absolutely.
Leena:And so what do you say to consumers who are just facing inflation and they're trying to make their dollar really, really spread?
Ranah:And that's a hard question to answer because you have to give people grace for their situations. So I think in those cases, for clothing in particular, in the textile industry in particular, there are options. There's consignment stores. There's thrift stores, of course. There's buy nothing groups as well, and those groups are amazing. I'm part of my local buy nothing group, and I've given clothing away, I've done clothing swaps. Those are options as well. And I think that's good in the short term, but long term we need to think about how fashion impacts our world. I was fortunate to be in Kenya recently, and I was in Nairobi in this market called Toi Market, it's T-O-I. Not toy, but Toi, it's spelled differently.
Leena:Okay.
Ranah:And it's this really, really big, big massive second hand market. And it's a labyrinth. You can get lost in there, I did. So I was walking around and I realized a lot of the clothes that I was looking at were not new. And I remember looking, I saw this coat that I really liked, and I saw the tag, and I had to do a double take, because it was a Value Village tag, that was Canadian. And then I looked at another jacket and it was a Goodwill tag from America. And then I looked further and I saw more and more from European countries and their thrift stores.
Ranah:So when our clothes... We wear our clothes when we're done with them, if we're done, they go to the thrift store. I didn't realize at the time what happens to it after it can't be sold. It gets shipped off to these developing countries in massive, massive totes. And then there's auctions usually, and people buy up the totes and have to sort through the textiles that are there, and then they can figure out what they can sell secondhand. So there's a whole sub market in the textile industry that is this basically. But a lot of that fabric is soiled, is damaged, is low quality and even falling apart, so it becomes a huge problem because then that fabric ends up getting burned or just dumped in landfills.
Leena:In landfills, yeah.
Ranah:And that releases carbon and so on and so forth. So I think our consumption of clothing has to change, and that we slow fashion instead of fast fashion is definitely the avenue we have to pursue more.
Leena:Yeah, slow fashion. Buying some really good quality pieces. Looking at the source of even the materials, like organic cotton. I've heard a scary story about organic bamboo as I was research researching it. I was like, organic bamboo is great.
Ranah:It's viscose.
Leena:Great. Okay, this is something different. I was going to say that the way that they process bamboo can be different. And so some forms of organic bamboo are very heavily chemically treated in order to get that sort of softness to them. But you're saying is there's some plastic in the bamboo?
Ranah:Well, so I was thinking of to make viscose, which is another fabric that's touted to be sustainable. It's plant derived so in that regard, it's not plastic, but it is plant derived, and it's very chemically intensive to make it. It's great fabric, it's very lightweight and breathy, but-
Leena:But then again-
Ranah:It's the inputs, right?
Leena:[inaudible 00:43:07] mm-hmm.
Ranah:So it's a big problem. I think we need the fundamental change in the way that the textile industry runs.
Leena:These problems are very often very interconnected, interrelated. And with respect to the fashion industry and any of our purchasing decisions, I think also as consumers are becoming more aware, I think the thing is, part of it is also just that education. Why is fast fashion so terrible for humanity, for the environment, for the people even? The people who are treated so badly in the factories where these garments are being made.
Ranah:Or where the cotton is being picked.
Leena:Or where it's being picked. Oh, yeah.
Ranah:Yeah, that too. So I think the way that we should design businesses now is to stop working and extracting so much out of nature, but how we can give back.
Leena:Oh, I love that.
Ranah:So we are humans. We're part of a global ecosystem. We are animals, we are. At the end of the day, we're mammals. So we're part of an ecosystem. And it's really important to realize that every action has a response. And so we have to be responsible in the way that our actions are held and learn how our responses can be mitigated, so that way we are not having as much environmental consequence.
Leena:I love what you said, going from being extractive to giving back.
Ranah:Yeah. It's reciprocity at the end of the day.
Leena:Beautiful. I think it's wild that plastic is stuff that we wear on us, in clothing.
Ranah:And that's concerning. It is.
Leena:It's in our bodies.
Ranah:It's in our bodies.
Leena:These nanoplastics, these, what do they call them? Nanoplastics.
Ranah:Microplastics.
Leena:Microplastics.
Ranah:Micro and nanoplastics. So that's a huge concern I think for me personally as a toxicologist.
Leena:So nanoplastics and microplastics are actually in our body. Can you explain?
Ranah:Yeah, absolutely. So the life cycle of plastic is we make plastic. When it gets used, when even while we're wearing it sheds microfibers, microplastics, it does. And so microplastic is anything that is less than five millimeters in size. So it can be a little piece of plastic or it can be a fiber, because a lot of our clothes are made from plastic. And so what ends up happening is that these particles are so small that they end up getting everywhere. So you can find plastic at the bottom of the Marianas Trench, all the way to within our human blood. We've found it in our brains. We found it in our reproductive organs.
Leena:Wow.
Ranah:And so it's a huge concern because we're breathing plastic in, we're drinking it, we're eating it, and our skin is a living organism. It's like a living organ. Sorry, it's a living organ, and it's constantly wearing plastic. So that's a concern too. So I think people should be really concerned. This is making me think of Rachel Carson, if you're familiar with DDT. So in the 9th... Are you familiar with DDT?
Leena:No.
Ranah:So DDT was used in the war since the 1940s. It's a pesticide.
Leena:Okay, right.
Ranah:So it was used a lot. It was developed in the second World War, it was a way to manage mosquitoes and malaria. And over time, they ramped up the use of it because they realized, well, it can be used for so many different things. And it was used in the Vietnamese War when America invaded the Vietnam. But we continued to use it in agriculture as well, because we saw it killed so many bugs. And in 1960, I believe Rachel Carson was the woman who studied DDT and wrote a book called Silent Spring. And that book became very popular and actually influenced how policy was being developed because they started realizing the impacts of DDT. They found it impacting biodiversity in marshes, not seeing as many birds, not seeing as many bugs. And they started realizing that it started showing up in the human body, and that it started impacting sperm motility in men. And that's when we saw-
Leena:It's always when it impacts men, I'm telling you.
Ranah:It's one of the factors, I think. There was a huge movement about environment. But that's the thing with climate change we were talking about earlier, is that when it starts impacting you personally, that's when people start to care.
Leena:Yeah.
Ranah:So if we're eating microplastics-
Leena:When it impacts men's sperm, I think in general.
Ranah:I think in general, if it starts impacting human beings, then it becomes a problem and then we have to start addressing it. So that's the case here, is now we know it's in our bodies. Do we know what's going on in our bodies? We are not sure yet. And that's a big-
Leena:We may not know for a few years.
Ranah:We may not know for a few years. I think there are a lot of scientists working on this, but it's in our bodies. And it's not just the microplastic itself, it's the additives that are on plastic. The color, the preservatives, everything that's on plastic is in our bodies and we're processing it. And that's a concern.
Leena:So if you have a glass of water, you're drinking tap water, there's probably some microplastic in there.
Ranah:Yeah, there is. I would argue that our tap water here is some of the best in the world, and I know the city of Vancouver is working on using filtration to eliminate microplastics. I would say what's more dangerous is drinking bottled water. That's much higher in how many microplastics are in there.
Leena:Wow. I don't think a lot of people know that.
Ranah:Yeah, a lot of folks don't know that. But if you're drinking out of a plastic water bottle, there are microplastics in there more than your tap water, for sure.
Leena:Oh, gosh. Interesting. And you said even when you're breathing in the air?
Ranah:Yeah, yeah. Because when you're wearing plastic clothing, the microfibers, they end up breaking off after wear, and they end up floating in the air. So it's a huge concern. I think the quote is that you're eating about a credit card's worth of plastic a week, which is about five grams.
Leena:That we're eating?
Ranah:Eating, breathing, drinking.
Leena:Lovely.
Ranah:Yeah, it's a scary thought.
Leena:What does some early studies say though, about the impact of all these plastics that are being ingested or?
Ranah:I haven't looked at the literature recently. What I know for a fact is that it's showing up. And we don't know, there's concerns about it being processed by our bodies because a lot of processing happens in our liver. So is that impacting our liver, for example?
Leena:Oh, I see.
Ranah:Are the ones in our brains causing any problems there? We don't know. Is it affecting our brain chemistry? Are the microplastics in our capillaries? How is that impacting blood flow?
Leena:Right.
Ranah:Things like that. That is a concern. I think we just don't know yet. We know it's there, but we don't know what the impacts are yet. And plastics also in general, are endocrine disruptors. So hormones, for example, our bodies are constantly balancing our hormones in our bodies, and plastics do disrupt that. So there are things that we don't know yet. So I'm hoping more literature will come out in the coming years and really clarify what needs to be done and protecting not only ourselves but the planet, because it's ending up in the environment too.
Leena:Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Ranah:Yeah.
Leena:And so what advice do you have for just the average person listening that is not in that B2B space, that is not going to be your client, which is agricultural business owner, farmer? What can we do? Average person.
Ranah:Yeah, I think the average person, just buy less with packaging. Honestly, I think we're seeing changes with policy. This is a really beautiful thing that's happening in Canada and the European Union and places like Singapore, that we're seeing a reduction of plastic, and single use plastic in particular. Things like straws, packaging, that's no longer necessary. Shopping bags. So that's where I think we're going to continue to see change and reductions in plastic packaging. So at the end of the day, there are some things that we'll always need plastic for, that we can't cut plastic out of. And that's food, that's things for medical uses, for example. And some products that just need to be wrapped in plastic that we don't have an option, to reduce food spoilage, for example. So if you can, buy local, that's the most important thing. Try not to buy with any plastic if you can. And that's the best you can do right now, is buying local and avoiding plastic packaging.
Leena:Buying local, avoiding plastic where you can, reducing plastic if you have to use plastic.
Ranah:Yeah, if you have to.
Leena:Because there are things like reusable containers and fabric bags, et cetera.
Ranah:There are so many cool alternatives out there. I've seen up cycled fabric from textiles being made into shopping bags, for example. I've seen for food containers, silicon is commonly used. If we're looking at other types of innovations, there's so much out there. There are people that are developing foams, for example, from wood waste pulp. It's incredible. You're even talking to folks who are developing mushroom leather, mushroom packaging. These are all amazing companies doing really cool, innovative things. So I'm fortunate, I'm in a great space with really amazing company.
Leena:Yes.
Ranah:And so we're just one player. There are so many people out there doing amazing work, and that at the end of the day is what brings me a lot of joy, that I'm not alone in this.
Leena:No, you're not.
Ranah:There's other people doing really cool things out there.
Leena:And there's companies like ours, that we don't manufacture anything, but we want-
Ranah:You're doing purposeful work.
Leena:Well, we want to shine a light on those who are doing purposeful work, because I think that's just it, we have a space to really combine our collective voices and amplify this kind of good, so we can all be up to so good.
Ranah:Up to so good.
Leena:The purpose of business. Well, that's all the time we have here. I want to thank our wonderful guest Ranah, the CEO and founder of PhyCo Technologies. Thank you so much for being our guest here.
Ranah:Thank you for the opportunity. Thrilled to be here, thank you so much.
Leena:Well, that's all the time we have for today's show. Thank you so much for joining us. And if you've enjoyed the show, please subscribe, hit the like button or share an episode. And if you have any feedback, questions or comments or show ideas, you can email us directly at hello@allpurpose.io. Thank you once again for joining us. We'll see you next time.
