One conversation changed everything for Jim Carlough. Fresh out of college and newly elected to city council, he expected the usual political favours. Instead, he got life-changing advice that would shape his entire leadership philosophy. In this episode, Jim shares how a simple question asked every night for over 40 years became his compass through challenging business turnarounds, difficult decisions, and building high-performing teams. From transforming struggling sales teams to navigating integrity challenges in corporate America, Jim reveals why some pillars of leadership are simply non-negotiable.

Resources

Guest Links:

• Jim's Website: https://www.jimcarlough.com/
• Jim's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimcarlough/
• mPulse: https://mpulse.com/
• Jim's Book: https://www.amazon.com/Six-Pillars-Effective-Leadership-Roadmap/dp/B0DQWT93V7

Conversations that Grow Ecosystem:

• Conversations that Grow Home: https://conversationsthatgrowpodcast.com/
• Podjunction Home: https://podjunction.com/

He said, every night when you go to bed and you put your head on that pillow.

I want you to ask yourself this one question, did I do anything today

for my own personal benefit that was at the expense of another individual

group of individuals or organization?

And you need to answer it with a yes or a no.

If you answer it with a no, you can sleep peacefully because

you've done the right thing.

Welcome to Conversations That Grow, where we explore how meaningful

conversations can help you expand your influence, build authority, and

grow your business in unexpected ways.

Today I'm joined by Jim Carlough, chief Sales Officer at Impulse

seasoned business strategist, leadership speaker, and author of the

Six Pillars of Effective Leadership.

With over 30 years of experience transforming teams and driving growth,

Jim brings a rare mix of integrity, vision, and real world wisdom.

Jim, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

I'm really excited to be here and to talk with you and your audience this morning.

Thank you so much.

And Jim, you know what makes your story especially powerful and honestly, one

of the reasons I was so excited to have you on is that it all goes back to one

pivotal conversation, a conversation that reshaped the way you lead, the choices you

make and the legacy that you're building.

So if you don't mind, I'd love to go there.

Can you tell us what happened in that conversation with Donnie Tate and why

it stuck with you all these years?

Um, yes, and I'll put it into context.

Um, in, of course it's going to tell your audience just how old

I really am, but when I graduated college in 1984, I'm sorry, 1983,

trying to make myself younger.

Um, in 1983, I also ran for local city government, uh, for a position

of a city councilman in a small town in New Jersey, and I won.

Hm.

And shortly after the election, the city administrator asked to,

for me to come in and talk to him.

And this was before email and internet and all this other stuff.

And so I had no idea what he wanted to talk about.

So I got there and we sat down and we started chatting.

And he told me he was impressed with the fact that I was able to win.

I earned it and I was going to be successful and all the

nice things that somebody, you would expect somebody to say.

And then he paused for a moment, he said, but I, I do want to ask you for one favor.

now here I am, brand new into politics and the first thing I hear is somebody

wants me to, wants me to do them a favor.

That usually means my antenna go, go up.

But that's wasn't his intent.

Um, and I said, well, what can I do for you?

And he said, well, this is more for you, but it's not necessarily for me,

but I'm gonna ask you to do one thing.

He said, every night when you go to bed and you put your head on that pillow.

I want you to reflect on the day, and I want you to ask yourself this

one question, did I do anything today for my own personal benefit that was

at the expense of another individual group of individuals or organization?

And you need to answer it with a yes or a no.

If you answer it with a no, you can sleep peacefully because

you've done the right thing.

But if you answer yes, you need to stop and reflect and figure

out how not to repeat that,

and either how to fix what you did or unwind it.

And that has stuck with me ever since November of 1984.

And I have asked myself that question every single night, and I don't think I've

ever answered that question with a yes.

Wow.

That is just absolutely incredible.

That's

I'm assuming that's the story you're referring

Yes.

That is the one.

Yeah.

'cause we, we had our pre-cal, didn't we?

And you mentioned it just in passing, we didn't get into the details,

but you mentioned that there was a conversation that you had had.

Just it's, it, it was that powerful, um, that it made me, it was sort, I, it was

sort of like getting hit on the side of the head with a two by four piece of wood.

And, and not like he, he wasn't suggesting at all that I, I lacked integrity, but it

was really the importance of integrity and I, it, it resonated with me because I was

really raised that way to begin with from my parents, but hearing it from another

person of authority was just unbelievable.

Um, and it also made me much more aware when I found myself in situations

with people who lacked integrity.

I. And it was very quick for me to pick up on that.

And unfortunately, there's a fair number of people in the world who lack integrity.

And we see it sometimes in the media every day.

But the reality is, it is the one pillar that I say is non-negotiable.

If, if you work with me, uh, you're gonna have integrity or you probably

won't survive in, in, in that role.

And I just, I just demand it.

But there, what's interesting is there's other leaders who

exemplify all of the characteristics that I talk about in the book.

And so, for example, integrity, the CEO of Microsoft, Satya Nadal, when he joined

Microsoft as CEO in 2014, he made it very clear to everyone that they were

gonna operate with absolute integrity.

And he has followed through on that throughout the entire

organization as micro of Microsoft.

And they're far better company than they were pre his arrival.

Hmm.

Wow.

Um, Jim, thanks for sharing that.

And if you don't mind, I just wanna go back a little bit.

So when Donnie first said those words to you, how, what did you feel?

What went through your head?

I'd love to know.

I, I was, first, I couldn't get over the fact that he wasn't

asking for a political favor.

Um, but he was not that type of man.

Uh, he, he really wasn't.

And he was one of those that I don't think a lot of people knew him, but he

was actually a great administrator and he absolutely operated with integrity.

But I think most people thought he was unapproachable.

And so they, they pictured him as being this, you know, stoic,

older gentleman who just wouldn't budge on something, but he wouldn't

budge on his principles is what it

Yeah.

And, um, and it was very quick for me to realize that.

And

it became very powerful.

And I remembered unfortunately, when he passed away, um, getting

a call from a newspaper reporter.

I had since moved on and moved to Texas where I was raising a family.

And this reporter who knew I knew him from when I served and didn't know this story

called Means, she's asked me, what, what is the one thing you remember about Don?

Hmm.

And I told this story

and she, she, she absolutely was just blown away by that story.

And it, it has served me well throughout my professional career

and it has never failed me.

Yeah.

Yeah, I, I wanna dig into that, but another question before we get there.

Why do you think he asked you that?

In that discussion, he, he said.

You know, this is a difficult job.

You don't make a lot of money being a city councilman, I think at the

time we got $5,000 a year, and it'll cost you more to be a city

councilman because everybody wants you to come to their fundraising event

than than what you're going to get paid.

So you're not doing it for the money.

But I think his motivation was for me to know, going in that there will be

times where I will have to interact with people who lack integrity.

And boy, was he correct.

hmm.

Um, I was once approached by a developer, um, who wanted to approve, who wanted to

get a subdivision approved that would've built condos on the side of a mountain

that surrounded the town on one side.

And, and I wasn't in favor of it.

And, um, the individual came to me and he said, you know.

I'd like this unit over here to be yours.

And I said, well, I don't have plans to live in, in that community, but,

and he said, but I, he said, it'll be yours for a very cheap price.

And I, I was very uncomfortable.

And I said, does your daughter know you're here and what you're doing?

Because she went to school with me.

And he said, no, she doesn't.

I said, well then I think this conversation's over because I am, I,

I'm not in favor of the subdivision.

I will not vote in favor of it.

'cause it was coming to the city council to approve it because it

was denied by the planning board.

And so the city council would be the deciding factor.

And um, usually they rotate who votes first, second, or third.

And I don't remember if I was first or second person to vote.

Hmm.

Once I've, once I voted, no other nos followed.

Hmm,

One comment he had made to me was that all of the other council people

were in favor of the subdivision, which I knew was not true,

which I knew was not true.

hmm

but it certainly did.

It raised its ugly head a few times, and I stayed the course with that

integrity going down the center of the roadway and not wavering,

Wow.

That's, you know, it's, I love, I love what you're saying and

Nani sounds like a really wise.

Man.

And also I think for you to be able to accept what he was saying and really

understand the depth of it, you know, shows that you were a man, a principle

too, that you were able to understand the weight of what he was saying.

And, um, listening to you speak, you know, I think in integrity became your

non-negotiable and your personal compass.

cor correct.

There there was only one.

If I had a compass, it has one direction, one that's I, I don't have four points.

I have one direction.

hmm.

How do you keep that, um, pillar, I know you, you refer to

these as pillars in your book.

How do you keep that pillar of integrity strong in a fast-paced

or, um, high pressure environment?

I, I, you know what?

I've been doing it so long.

It's almost natural, but it's, it's, but it's helping others to see that

in, in the way I behave and how I manage, which I think is, is more

enlightening to see people buy into that

and accept it.

And, and I believe, I strongly believe that if you don't have integrity,

Hmm.

you are not gonna build a following with your team

Hmm.

because everything else from there falls apart.

If I don't have integrity and I try to show compassion to you, you probably

aren't gonna believe that it's real.

Mm-hmm.

And the same thing.

If I try to show empathy or if I'm trying to get us to get to a higher

level of productivity or to, to help resolve a problem or a conflict, it's,

it's knowing that my behavior is going to be consistent each and every time.

And I think that's probably why there's been a number of people throughout

my career who have reached out and said, Hey, before I put my resume

out there, do you have an opening?

Because I would love to work with you again.

And that's one of the best compliments I think a leader can ever receive

from someone is the fact that they would want work for you.

Hmm.

That's great.

Jim, you Say without integrity, there's no trust.

Without trust, people won't follow.

In your experience then, what does it take to build that culture of trust?

um, it takes transparency,

Hmm

it takes honesty.

And it takes the unwavering, you know, fact that you have to, people can't

see you as someone, you don't, A leader doesn't, I don't have all the answers

and so I, you know, many times I am not the smartest person in the room, but I

surround myself with very smart people and we work collaboratively to get to

the decisions that we need to make.

And I think that resonates more with people because I include them

versus exclude them in that process.

And I think that's what builds the high performing team, is

that they're then vested in it.

When I first entered management in 1983, it was very authoritarian.

Almost everything, even in corporate America, was like a factory you're

gonna do, you know, you're telling people you're gonna do these

three things today or tomorrow.

I expect you to do these two things.

You know, I, I'm, I'm now saying it more than I, I used to, but I realized

a long time ago that those first people I managed in 1983, I probably need to

reach out to and apologize because the world was different then, and I, the

way I didn't know empathy, I didn't know compassion, I didn't know, I knew

integrity, but it was so much more that a leader has to learn and develop, which

is really what preempted and came out of.

All of the mentoring I was doing once I got on the tech side of healthcare

and what I was learning from people I was mentoring was they didn't

understand these soft skills.

And many times employers took an individual contributor who's doing a great

job for the company and said, Hey, I'm gonna make you a manager, but get gave

them no roadmap and no program to be able to learn and understand what that meant.

In terms of, other than just getting your goals accomplished, but being

responsible for other human beings.

It's a big aspiration for people to get into leadership.

And it's a 24 7 job.

It's not, somebody once asked me, when does leadership begin?

I assume it begins when you sit down at your desk.

And I thought for a second, I said, no,

hmm.

starts when your feet hit the floor in the morning.

Everything you do from the moment your feet hit the floor is a reflection of you.

And so that integrity has to show in your home life,

in your professional life, in your social life.

And I, I, it's not something that I think people can, can

turn off or should turn off.

'cause I think that's, you run the risk of losing a follower when they see that

divergence from such a staunch position.

Wow, that's, um, that's really powerful.

And you know, as you're saying that you have the, you run the risk of

losing that follower that's not just in the workplace, that can also

be at home, right, because you do

it from the moment you hit your floor.

And I think if you, if you were to ask people who have worked with me or even

ask my kids who are all grown, they're also successful, you know, uh, and,

and you were to say to them, what's the one thing that you recall growing up?

And I think you would get to the integrity

hmm,

of the way they were raised.

Um, and they, they, all, three of them show that today in

their own professional lives

and all three.

Very, very successful.

Now, the good news is I didn't raise 'em.

My wife did all of the hard work.

I'm just taking the credit for it.

Um, but the reality is, well, it was a partnership and a team effort.

But the reality is I was off doing my management thing and

which required me to travel.

And I was very proud of the fact that I never missed a birthday party.

And I was reminded a couple years ago that that wasn't true.

And I said, no, that was true.

And my wife came to my defense and it was my middle child who's a boy.

And he said, dad missed my 13th birthday.

And I said, no, I didn't, Andrew.

This is what we did for your birthday.

He said, I'm not talking the party.

You are not home on my 13th birthday.

And he was a grown adult at that person, but he had carried that with

him because that was his recollection.

I let him down on September 9th of whatever year it was that it turned 13.

I think it would've been 2003.

Um, but he, I never realized he carried that.

And so I, I apologize, but I did attend his birthday party.

Oh, thanks Jim, for sharing.

I have a few questions around what you've said.

Um, one is, you talked about leadership being about transparency, honesty,

um, collaborative with your team.

I am curious, how would you say that, um, a lack of leadership, what, what

kind of detrimental effect would it have on a team if all those parts of

I, I, I, I truly think it has a, a significant impact on somebody's, on an

employee's psyche, number one, and how they feel about the organization and

the team and the leader they work with.

Hmm.

to me, once you, once you lose that,

Yeah.

you, you can't ever regain that.

I I, if you lose somebody's trust, regaining that is virtually impossible

in my view, because to me, even if I lost faith in someone, I'm always gonna

remember why I lost faith in them.

And so if they were to come back into my life, my guard would be up from

day one and or I would be questioning whether or not they've changed.

Mm-hmm.

I, I, I, I'm a big proponent of we all change leadership changes.

We all have to evolve with it.

But I mean, change in a negative way, you know, in a positive way different

than they were when we first interacted.

And for someone who's been on the receiving end of that, so

where they have lost trust and you know, things have gone on.

As a leader who sees that, okay, this has happened, how did

they help rebuild that trust?

Well, sometimes they can't because it doesn't have to,

it doesn't begin with them.

And I'll give you, I'll give you an example.

I've only told this story one other time.

Okay.

I worked for A CEO at one point and at my one-on-one meeting,

which was every Friday at noon.

Lunchtime

was done in his office, not with lunch, and he did it with the Wall Street Journal

up in front of him reading the Wall Street Journal while I sat across from his desk

looking at the front and back page of the main section, trying to update him on

the activities of what my team was doing.

And he would engage periodically,

but to me, he put this wall and barrier up.

I lost faith and trust in him.

I didn't believe he was even listening.

mm-hmm.

He could have even been asleep, but I can't understand how someone wouldn't

give somebody their complete attention when they're sitting directly with them

for a meeting that they're supposed to be having and be half engaged and.

I never wanted to be that person,

Hmm.

but I, I cho and it didn't take me long to realize that that

behavior was not going to change

Hmm.

ul ultimately, I left and ultimately he failed,

Mm-hmm.

unfortunately.

But I, I think you can see the beginning of why he probably did.

'cause if he was reading the newspaper with me, what was

he doing with other leaders

Yeah.

That's a sobering, um, account that you share.

And I think unfortunately there are still many out there that are of the same kind.

I, I, I believe you're correct with that.

I, I, I would like to think it's getting better or it's different, but

we, you know, today the world is.

There's too much interference going around, well, not interference, noise

around us, between social media, newsprint, television, everything that's

going on in the world, and we're bombarded with all of this information and we think

that we have to read or get through.

I actually stopped watching the news

Hmm.

during COVID and have not gone back to it because I couldn't believe I, I wasn't

believing the stories we were being told.

Yeah.

And, and, and if you couldn't believe that or couldn't understand, in fact,

uh, I'll tell you where that comes from.

I took a class in college that was called Contemporary Moral Values.

Okay.

I went to a Catholic university.

It was taught by a priest, and there was no textbook.

Now, this is pre 1983.

That's the year I graduated and.

You had to bring to class the Wall Street Journal, the New York

Times, or the Washington Post, one of those three newspapers.

And if called upon, you had to be prepared to present the article, the writer's,

religious and political background,

Okay.

and what they were trying to convince you to believe.

And it really changed my life in the way I interpreted media

Hmm.

and really had to now think about it, pre 1983, there's no chat GPT, there's

no internet, there's nothing that's gonna be able to say, go look up Jim

Carlough and his behaviors or political background, which is available today.

So we were forced to really try to interpret through their words all of

the things they were trying to get us to convince, to convince us to believe.

And when COVID hit.

I found that there was so much dissension between what the messaging

was that I couldn't believe any of it, so I just shut it off.

. That's, that's really powerful.

I think you're right.

Like having to teach yourself in how to engage with, with media is so

important, especially in a time as that we, that we are living in now.

I totally agree.

I, I hope for the better, but that I, I, you know, in, in our own

country here, I, you know, things I'm concerned about is the debt level

that we've gotten ourselves into.

We're not talking about balanced budgets, we're still talking

about increased spending.

You know, it, our, our children's children are not going to

be able to afford to live,

Hmm.

and it's, it, it worries me that.

We're not focused, you know, the government doesn't care about the balance

in their checkbook, but we have to care about the balance in our checkbooks, and

nobody's giving us free handouts of money just because we've exhausted everything.

At the end of the week.

If we can't buy groceries or feed our family, there's not somebody out

there coming down and saying, oh, well here's just some more money.

Like the government is doing writing checks all the time.

I, and to me, I, I, that's one of the things I worry about the most

hmm.

That's fair.

Jim, one of the things you talk about in your book, another pillar is vision and

about vision being more than just goals.

It's about alignment.

So how do you make sure your team doesn't just hear it, but owns it?

with two things,

Okay.

and stability.

To me, unwavering focus on what we're doing and working to achieve needs to

also have that unwavering component.

I'll give you an

Hmm.

Jeff Bezos started Amazon as a book online book retailer

Mm-hmm.

in the early to mid nineties.

He had a lot of very lean and difficult years, but he had a vision of being able

to bring the storefront from the shopping mall into your house and where you could

get those goods and services overnight.

Hmm.

That was his singular focus.

He got there because he never wavered from that focus, and

he continued to stay there.

Now they had some tough years, and I actually tell a story.

There's a story I I, I included in the book about.

Um, when he, in his early years when he didn't have offices in every major city

in massive warehouses, he had a customer service problem, and he knew that if he

didn't fix the customer service problem and that it needed his attention,

that they, that Amazon would fail.

So he ha he took a desk and put it in the middle of the customer service

department, and he sat there so he could watch and visualize exactly the behaviors

that were going on every day so that he could be involved with fixing the

problem so it didn't destroy his company.

That's focus.

Hmm.

And commitment to the, to his end goal.

Correct.

And the stability to be able to, to continue to operate the same

way with the same principles of our service has to be impeccable.

Or somebody's gonna get in the car and drive five miles to

the mall to buy what they want.

And he is right and he and he is right.

Hmm.

Wow.

I did not know that about him.

That's very cool.

Jim, when building or turning around a business, how do you hold people

accountable without, um, micromanaging?

So as a leader, how would you do that?

So the first thing I think that people do incorrectly when they

take on a new responsibility is they walk into it and before they really

understand what's going on, they start making change for change sake.

Hmm.

And I believe the first thing a leader needs to do is just sit back and listen

and make no decisions for 30 or 45 days.

And understand truly the challenges that the group or organization is having.

If you can't listen to the people to understand where the

challenges are, how do you know what works and what doesn't work?

And so I think in order to turn anything around, you have to be very sensitive to

not throwing, as they say, don't throw the baby out with the bath, bath water.

You know, really understand what's in that water so you're keeping what's

good and solid and building upon that.

And that's usually, and that's the approach, the approach that I follow.

Not everything is that horrible, that it all has to be gutted and replaced.

You may have to replace some systems if there's new technology available.

Change organizational structure, change how people are measured

and are, are held accountable.

I very much believe in not just goals, but key performance indicators, so KPIs.

So from my organization, there are KPIs that we measure on a frequent

basis that that helps tell us.

If we did those 20 things, we know that the money will be there or the sales

will happen, or whatever will occur.

Hmm.

we see a break in the way those indicators are showing a downward trend,

we have to reverse that to counteract the negative change it would have.

Right now.

We, right now, in my current role.

We've been rebuilding kind of the sales process structure and

making it much more proactive.

But as a result of that, we also have to build a sustaining, a

sustainable pipeline of revenue.

And we're in the midst of doing that, where we had a couple of

quarters in 2024 where the sales numbers didn't, didn't hit the mark.

And so this process that we put in place for outbound activity and to

generate interest in the market is starting to now impact the pipeline.

Will still have a, you know, some blips in the road moving forward.

But I think we're on, we're on the pathway to fix what was a

problem prior to, prior to, um, the acquisition that I was part of.

Yeah.

You've mentioned that it's better to give it time before you start making changes,

understand what the challenges are.

From your experience what's harder to fix as far as challenges go?

Like the hard data or the soft, performance?

I'm not really sure how to word this actually.

Is it the hard data or is it the people that are, , maybe

misaligned or, , lacking, the vision of what the company's doing.

I'm not really sure how to say this.

I'm sorry.

Maybe you can understand, um, and

put into words better what I'm trying to

love, the question.

I love the question, and this will certainly show we have not rehearsed

anything, but, but let, let me tell you a situation that I was thrown into.

Hmm.

I went to work for a company in the healthcare space.

In the mid to late nineties,

Hmm.

it was owned, privately owned by a husband and wife team.

The husband ran the sales and marketing and account management organization,

and they were losing customers.

Their retention rate was about 60% year over year.

Their sales had bottomed out and, um, I was asked to come in and clean house.

When I got in, after observing everything I did restructure our

account management and customer service area to me, I said, we have

to stop the bleeding or we don't grow.

Hmm

And so focus number one was changing that.

So we changed that 60% to 90 in about four months,

wow.

and we, we made some significant change, but we saw our pathway so that

by the end of the first year we were, we would have a retention rate of 90%.

Hmm.

When I turned to the sales organization, the owner of the company was

convinced that they all had to go.

Hmm.

I only let one person go.

The rest of them I kept, and the rest of them I refocused and energized them.

They had just gotten bored

and they lacked leadership and they lacked having fun.

It wasn't rocket science, and I, the owner kept saying,

when are you gonna get rid of?

When are you gonna get rid of it?

I was like, we don't need to do that.

You watch, and before you knew it, the rest of that sales team was

producing like they had 10 years prior to get this company into the position

of dominance that they were in.

But they lost their way, but they lost their way because

of their leader, not because.

Because there was nobody there leading them and helping them.

And one of the reasons they wanted me to clean house was they wanted

all fresh new employees, 'cause they were gonna try to sell the company.

Right.

The reality was sales started to take off and ultimately I think the owner was

not happy with the fact that it made him look bad that I turned around half of

the company that he was responsible for.

hmm.

And so one day he came into work and um, he asked me to come speak to him

and I went to his office and he had my compensation agreement in front of him.

Oh, wow.

And he literally tore it up and he said, um, from this point forward, you're,

you're making only your base salary.

And I said, but that comp plan was based on improving retention,

improving sales results.

I improving year over year growth.

Am I not doing that?

Oh, no, you're doing a great job at that.

I'm just not gonna pay you for it anymore.

I didn't last, but six weeks after

Hmm, hmm,

and I had found another, I found another job that to me, I, I was gone.

There was nothing I was gonna do to change his mind.

He would only make my life miserable.

And of course, I couldn't tell the employees that.

Yeah.

So then when I told him I was leaving, he said, you can't do that.

I'm like, what do you mean you can't do that?

Hmm.

took my compensation away.

That's, you know, I was making more in comp, in additional compensation

than I was in base salary, primarily because that's the way he, they wanted

to put it at risk and I was succeeding.

So when I said I'm leaving, he said, well, you can't leave yet.

We have to throw a big party.

And he never threw parties.

I said, I don't want a party.

He said, this is gonna be devastating to the company.

I said, that's not my problem.

hmm,

forcing me to do this.

That income puts food on the table for my family.

I performed, I put it at risk.

You're failing to keep your end of the bargain.

I knew if I was to hire a lawyer and fight it and all, I mean

it is a privately held company.

There's not a lot people can do for you.

And I was in management and I just said, you know what?

This is your problem.

Yeah.

He said, well, we're gonna throw a party anyway.

I said, you go ahead.

I won't be

Hmm.

And I wasn't.

Hmm.

Wow,

But that's a true story.

that's, that's really interesting.

I wonder what, um.

Your exit meant for the team that you had turned around, plus, I guess,

in time, whether things went back to what they were before or whether

they kept going in the trajectory.

You were, you had set it on.

I, I'd be keen to know those things.

Hmm.

from a lot of those people who wanted answers as to why I was gone.

And I eventually gave some of them feedback, um, of what transpired.

And I think they were mortified.

Um, ultimately the company nearly went under.

Um, they ended up, they ended up at some point selling the company.

Um, but I'm sure they didn't sell it for what they thought they would get for it.

Hmm.

People, you know, you don't, you, you don't have a down and go like this.

And then the major contributor to that, you know, leaves and

you don't have a crash from it.

It may not have happened overnight, but I'm pretty confident within a

year or more it, it impacted them.

Yeah,

because I'm sure that that trust that you had built or rebuilt maybe for some

was, um, was, was probably hinging on, on you being a part of the picture.

I would, I would venture to guess so, and I don't like to put myself on a, I'm

not trying to put myself on a pedestal.

I didn't do anything that was different than what I would teach leaders to do.

But the reality is, yeah, I think there was a spiral that, well, there was

a couple of, I was not the only one

by the way, and he had also hired at the same time.

I was hired a new COO who was a Wharton graduate.

Hmm.

Hmm,

And, um, she was actually let go before he ripped up my comp agreement.

Hmm.

Hmm.

And he did a similar action with her, even though she had done a great job

of reorganizing the other half of the company that his wife had been running.

Yeah.

it, and accounting and finance and all of those other things,

she dramatically improved.

And one day he came in and just said, you're done.

And I saw her walking out in tears and I called her on her cell

phone and I said, what's going on?

he said, and she said, he just let me go.

I said, you're, you're kidding me.

And she's like, no.

I said, don't leave.

I'm coming downstairs.

And, and we chatted for a while and I was like, this is not good.

Hmm.

And it was a few weeks after that, I got the call to go, which I was at

that point was kind of, my antenna was already up watching what was

going on, but it was, yeah, it.

It's pretty interesting.

He, he basically hired us to fix things and then he was, wanted to

take the credit for it and sell it.

Yeah.

Hmm.

It's sad.

It is, but it happens.

does happen.

Yes.

Um, Jim, I wanna move on to, um, your other pillar of what, I think it's your

third pillar or fourth communication.

You mean compassion,

Oh, I'm sorry.

Compassion.

Let's go with compassion.

Sorry.

I've got it, I've got it wrong in my head.

I, I apologize.

that's okay.

But I do believe communication and transparency is absolutely important.

And before I got to six, I actually originally had 15 to 18 characteristics

and I had to really work and communication was on that

Okay.

Okay.

That may be in book number two, maybe book number three.

I don't know.

But um, yeah, it was, it was compassion.

The seat is

Hmm.

Hmm.

Well, tell us more about why you chose to include that in,

in part of your first book.

So I, I included compassion and empathy because they're similar,

but they're also very different.

Hmm.

Compassion is being able to show support to someone when there's something going

on in their personal or business life that is outside of the realm of what I can fix.

Hmm,

Empathy on the other hand, is putting yourself in the person's

shoes and helping them get through it, through actions and leadership.

hmm.

So there's a stark difference for me.

So when I think of compassion and both require the same skillset, both

require the leader to understand when they sense their employee or employees

are disconnected or having an issue or they're just off for the day.

You know, when you see them with their head hanging low or just not motivated,

where you need to insert yourself and be able to drill into, how can I help you?

You sense that it seems like something's going on.

If you don't want to talk about it, that's fine, but if it's work related,

I need to, I need to understand so I can help fix it or work through it.

Hmm.

And as a leader, compassion and empathy are very difficult, different

and difficult because there's no easy way to learn how to show them.

Hmm.

And, and, and especially if you don't have integrity, people

aren't gonna believe it anyway.

So from my perspective,

Hmm.

if you don't have that, you can't have the trust, you can't have the

compassion, you can't have the empathy.

So when you go to the employee and say, Hey, you know, I

understand there's a concern here.

How, how can we fix

Mm-hmm.

I often say, and I don't mean any disrespect to any physicians that

you may have on your, on your, on your, um, audience, but what

we do is not open heart surgery,

right?

We're not doctors or surgeons in the heat of the battle.

Nobody's gonna die on the table if we don't make a decision in 30 minutes.

And so take the time to figure out what's the right way to do things.

And, and the same thing if an employee is struggling with something, you know,

whether it's work or home, being able to help guide them or, or connect them

with resources to assist them or giving them the support that they need to get

through that crisis or situation, I think is make or break for a leader.

Yeah.

And it's those things that really create a following

Hmm.

because when you can relate to somebody on a, on a professional but

personal level to help them through situations, they don't forget that

No.

even though it's outside of the realm of my responsibility, I think

I'm responsible to ensure that you have a safe and productive

work environment to be a part of.

If there's something impacting that, I need to either apply compassion or empathy

to try to help guide the individual or work with the individual to fix it.

Hmm.

Um, and I've got stories with, with both of them that my favorite story on empathy

Yeah.

was when I had a small, I, I had several departments when I worked

for a technology company, and one of them was an old green screen computer

system that we were rebuilding and replacing with a Windows platform.

And so there was this department of 25 people, and I had to

tell 'em they were losing their job over the next three years.

And I really, really struggled with what I was gonna say to them.

And, um, after a while, I, I, I just, I, I actually talked to my mentor

and said, I need help, I need ideas.

And, um, he was like, I think you got this.

He said, just, you need to think through it some more.

And I was like, well, you're not helping me.

He says, no, you want me to give you the answer, I want you to think through it.

And he was right.

And it was really worthwhile.

So what happened was, I knew that.

Replacement technology would take anywhere from eight months to 18 months to replace.

So I needed a team of people to be on board from the point we were today

through, let's say three years till we convert everybody to the Windows platform.

Mm-hmm.

But during that time, as we converted customers, we wouldn't

need all the staff that we had.

So after I wrestled with that and I said, if I was in their shoes,

what would I want from my manager?

My only goal in this was to ensure that I had enough staff to support the

existing clients until we pulled the plug.

Totally.

hmm.

I made them three promises.

Hmm.

Promise number one, they would have as much notice as physically possible

as to when someone would terminate.

So if someone was gonna convert to the Windows platform, we would know.

'cause they'd have to sign an agreement and they'd have to start implementation.

We would know it.

Yeah.

If they were looking at another company to try to, you know, go somewhere

else, they'd still notify us, but they have to give us lead time so that we

could be prepared to wind them down.

And I wasn't gonna hide that from the employees.

So they would have anywhere from six to potentially 12 or more months of

notice before their job went away.

Yeah.

The second thing I promised them was for those people that wanted to

learn the new technology so that as customers converted, they could go

over to that part of the organization.

I would make available the training during the workday, not after work, to

give them the knowledge and education of be successful in that new role.

For some of them it would be programming code in a different language, and some

people just don't have the capacity or want to do that if they've used

a particular computer language for their entire professional career.

So I respected that.

Hmm

So I said, for those of you who wanna make that transition,

I'll provide the education.

The third promise I made was whether you wanna stay with the company or not.

I will personally help you find your next job in the company or outside

of the company, and I will help you prepare for the interview and help

you decide whether it's the best opportunity for you and for your family,

both financially and professionally.

I made those three promises.

Wow.

My goal was to not have anyone leave before it was time for them

to leave, and I was successful.

Hmm.

However, something else happened.

About a year and a half into this, I got a call from HR and they asked if they could

come and see me and they came and they sat down and I. I said, what can I do for you?

And he said, we wanna talk to you about the team you have

out in Oakland, California.

I said, okay, that happened to be this team.

And they said, well, we wanna talk about the employee satisfaction survey.

Hmm

I said, how bad is it?

And they looked at me and they said, well, actually, it's not,

turns out that department is the happiest group of employees we

have in the whole organization.

The organization had over 20,000 people.

hmm.

I said, you're kidding me?

And they said, no, what?

And they said, what are you doing?

And so when I went back and thought about it, I promised them lead time

before their job would go away, I took the pressure off their back.

There was gonna be no surprise.

So they would know.

And I created a pathway for them to never go without a paycheck by either

educating them or helping them get another role in or outside of the company.

Yeah.

And the reality was they didn't have to worry about anything

because I had their back

and I never expected that to come out in a satisfaction survey.

That's amazing.

That's really amazing.

You've made it well, you made it a no-brainer for them.

And in doing that, they were able to give above and beyond because

they knew that their, that they were safe, no matter which way they go.

They had that support.

And it was actually that team that whenever a client escalated

something to me and I called them

and I said, I need some help in this AR arena.

We need to figure out what, how to solve this problem.

There was always people who said, I'm on it.

I never had to ask for somebody to volunteer.

I just would say, here's the issue.

I need some help and I would have offers from everybody.

And I, I think that shows.

When people are really following that leader and are part of that team.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely.

Jim, I am conscious of time.

I know that you probably need to get going, but before you do, I'd love for

you to pick one of the other pillars.

I know we haven't got time to go through all of them, but one that, um, that is

still remaining that you think would be really good for our listeners to hear,

I'd love for you to talk about that.

So the one we haven't touched on that I think people question me about

the most is, why is humor a pillar?

Ah, I love it.

And, um, so I wanna make sure I define that.

So I'm not talking about the leader being a standup comedian at the

water cooler, you know, reciting every joke they heard on the way in,

on the morning show, on the radio.

Yeah.

I, I mean, using humor strategically in certain situations.

So kicking off a meeting to get people's attention.

Hmm,

Or refocusing using humor to refocus a discussion in a

meeting that's getting off track

hmm,

at a time of conflict with employees to try to ease the tension in the room

and, and your humor has to not only be appropriate, it can't be offensive,

it can't be attacking, and it's very, very difficult to master

Hmm.

because it, today people are so easily offended.

So most of the time it's self-deprecating humor about something stupid I did

the day before or the week before, just to get them to realize I'm human.

Yeah.

But I think humor is a powerful, powerful management tool or

leadership tool that if people use it selectively, appropriately, and wisely,

actually will bring people closer together.

Hmm.

I really like that.

And I, and I see what you're saying too, like the, you know, the offensive

humor, the inappropriate humor, humor, all of that can be quite a turnoff for

people.

And if you wanna bring them alongside, you need to be able to, um, you

know, going back to what you were saying before, build that trust.

And a lot of that comes from saying like, look, I'm human as well.

I make mistakes.

I get things wrong.

correct.

And, and I tell people all the time, I,

I don't have the answer for everything, but I know how we can get the answer

and let's sit down and figure it out.

Hmm.

And, and they know that you're there with them and you have their back and

you're, you're not, and unapproachable leader who's not gonna get their

hands dirty, I get my hands dirty.

Yeah.

You know, I love this.

For someone who loves to laugh, I, I love that this is one of your, your pillars.

I really, really do.

And I think, um, having fun at work is so important and loving what

you do in the team that you work with is so important in the sense

that it helps you perform better.

It helps you to align with, with the company so much better than if

you feel like, um, you're just kind of biting your time or just getting

through the day because you have to.

I totally agree.

I, and I tell people, and I'll say it here, if you are not

having fun at what you're doing, you're doing the wrong thing.

Yeah.

Life is too short

Hmm,

stressed out about the fact that I hate my job, I hate my boss.

I. You know, find somebody to talk to, to help you reconcile how to get

a game plan together to change that.

And, um, I do a fair amount of that with people who will reach out to me saying,

I don't know what to do, and, and, and help them and talk them through that

again, because they know and or trust me to give them feedback and to help them.

But life is way too short to not be enjoying and having fun at what you do.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Uh, yeah, there's so much truth in, in what you're saying.

What about for, um, someone who might enjoy what they do as far as tasks

go, but struggle with the leadership?

How would you help them?

Oh, that is, that, that's a ticking button.

So I'll, this was a disappointing thing.

I, I spoke at the University of North Texas in February.

Hmm.

And it was to a marketing class of seniors.

It was about 90 people in the lecture hall,

Hmm.

and we were talking about integrity and why it's so important for a leader.

Hmm.

And I asked how many people in the audience felt that they worked

for someone who lacked integrity.

I was very disappointed in the number of hands that went up,

Hmm

and I said, and I even admitted that.

And so I invited those people who had their hand up to stay

after the, my lecture was over

mm.

so that I could understand more about that.

And most of them were working part-time jobs at either a coffee shop or retail

shopper, or, or something of the similar,

Mm-hmm.

um, many of them were owned or family owned.

They weren't all corporate structures, although some were.

Um, but some of the stories I heard were very concerning,

Hmm.

very concerning.

And I, there was one situation I specifically recall where the young

lady started to break down and cry.

And I told her,

you need to get out of that situation.

That is a dangerous situation.

It is an inappropriate, inappropriate situation and I, I fear that I don't fear

that you're gonna have harm, but I don't think this is good for you long term.

Um, but if you are in a situation where you loved what you do and you love the

company, but you just don't like the manager that you're working with, I would

at your next review say that I would like your support to find another position

in the hosp in, in the organization.

Or if you're a nurse in the hospital you're working

for, or, or where, wherever.

Again, life is too short to work with people that lack integrity or

could potentially cause you harm, physical and or psychological harm.

Hmm.

Yeah, you're so right.

And I think sometimes if we stay in those kind of situations, it's easier

to, um, well, you tolerate them for so long that they just become normal

The wound gets bigger and bigger and bigger

until it's not healable, and at that point it's really affecting everything about

you and probably affecting your home life,

hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, it does.

Absolutely.

Has a knock on effect.

correct.

Jim, is there, is there one pillar you would recommend people work on first?

So they've got your book, they're looking at all of them.

Is there one that you would recommend people work, work on

first, or does it depend on a current challenge they're facing?

What would you say?

I, I would say integrity because without that, all else doesn't matter

in my, in, in my personal opinion.

Yeah.

that's because it's so unwavering for me and it's so impactful.

If, if you can't get that down, you're not going to be successful.

Yeah.

take the, take the vision of the leader who is always getting rid of

their first line of people that report to them and moving them in and out.

I call that rotating the chairs on the Titanic.

All they're doing is hiding their own inferiorities or failures

from their board or their bosses

By moving leaders around or in and out and shuffling those chairs,

the Titanic is still going to sink.

It's just a matter of time.

And, and you see that happen a lot in, in corporate America

and it's those organizations that have such high turnover.

When you see it, you wonder why they struggle.

You can see why they struggle.

Hmm.

Yeah.

I love that because actually, not just your opinion, also your experience.

Right.

It comes from experience as well that, that conversation you had years ago with

Donny Tate and that threat has been, it's visible throughout your professional life.

Um, and integrity I think is so crucial too because it's, it's the foundation for

all the other pillars to, to build on.

So it, when I was speaking at that college that I just talked about,

there was a young lady in the second row on the far left, on the aisle

Hmm.

and halfway through she said, you know, I have a question.

And I said, go ahead.

And she said, I. If it's that important,

why isn't a, it a the base of a statue and not just a pillar?

And she really, really made me think, but in my mind that pillar

was always the center pillar holding the most weight of the building.

And, and I explained that and it changed.

And I said, that's what my thought process was always looking at, like a building

in Washington, DC with six pillars.

And that middle one is holding the weight of everything else.

The others are supporting cast members.

Right.

And so, and I'm not an architect, but I would believe that that center pillar is

built to hold more weight than the others.

Although, I don't know, I'm making an assumption, but that was, that was

how I came up with the Pillar idea.

Um, but I, I was like, I, the book just got printed.

Um, I can't, I can't change it to a statue now.

Maybe the next book will be a statue.

But, but it is, it is that important that it, it holds the most weight.

Yes.

Yes.

There's no question.

Um, Jim, finally, what's one conversation do you think that our listeners, mostly

founders, execs, should have this week if they want to grow as a leader?

I think the conversation they need to have with themself

is, am I operating in a way I can get people motivated?

Following and bought into my vision and what we're doing,

Hmm,

or is there anything that in this conversation we've just had, that if

they want to attack me on integrity, that you don't need integrity?

hmm.

pe people have their opinion.

To me, it's non-negotiable because I think it builds so much else.

But there are people who have been successful, who lack integrity.

You can't take that away from them,

Mm-hmm.

I, I, I don't think it produces high performing, long-term

committed teams, is my opinion.

And having built long-term committed teams, I think integrity

is the linchpin to all of that.

So I think as a leader, you need to think about those soft

skills and whether or not.

You are showing empathy, you are showing compassion, and you are looking out

and have the back of your employees.

That's our job.

Mm-hmm.

The second job that we have is to bring people along for the ride and, and

train the next generation of leaders, and that's what I hope I'm doing, is

helping the next generation of leaders create a roadmap for themselves.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

I think, um, you're absolutely right.

I think sometimes, um, as leaders.

It can, some sometimes be so driven that the soft skills don't

matter or there's no room for them.

But those things absolutely matter.

They may take a bit longer because they, you know, they require trust

and it's humans you're working with.

It's not numbers.

Um, but yeah, to your point, I totally agree.

Thank you.

Jim, thank you so much for your honesty and insight today.

This really has been more than just a leadership chat.

Um, you know, listening to you, it all came down to the impact of asking that

one hard question that, um, Donnie Tate said to you and asking that every single,

every single night before you went to bed.

I thought that is just really, really, um, powerful.

It, it was extremely powerful and, and to think that it's really been my guidepost

for all these years, um, and that I have the ability to give that gift to others

so that they can lead a productive and happy life.

I've had a great life.

I'm not going anywhere, but I, you know, I'm, I'm proud of what I've done.

I'm happy about how I've done it, and, um, I would do it all over again.

Fantastic.

I love it.

Jim, it's been so good to have you on.

I had so many other, um, questions and places I wanted to go in our conversation,

but, um, we've run outta time, but before we wrap up, where can people

connect with you, learn more about impulse or grab a copy of your book?

So, um.

In terms of mPulse, mPulse is, um, website is just www.mpulse.com.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube.

I'm on all most all of the socials.

Um, but you also can contact me through my website, which

is very simply jimcarloughcom.

There's no space or dot or line in between Jim and Carlough,

so just www.jimcarlo.com.

You can buy the book on my website.

You can buy the book at Amazon.

You can also buy it at Barnes and Noble.

And there's a few other online retailers like Google and Roku and another one.

I keep forgetting, Lulu, that you can buy it on as well.

Um, but, uh, yes, so any of those venues, the price is the same with the book

anywhere, including if you get it from me.

The only difference is if you get it from me, I'm gonna sign it first.

So, um, anyway, but that's, uh, a quick way to let them know how to find me.

But please connect with me,

shoot me an email, do whatever if you wanna chat, chatting is free.

That's awesome.

Thank you so much.

And for those of you listening, you'll find all the links that Jim

has just mentioned in the description.

And if you've been thinking about using conversations to grow your business,

maybe even through a podcast, but don't have the time or head space for all the

moving parts, that's where we come in.

So visit pod junction.com or drop me a message on LinkedIn.

I would love to help.

And, um, finally from Jim and me, thanks so much for being here and for listening.

Until next time.

Bye for now.