A crossover episode with Eric Calderon of Surviving Animation, recorded with Andy and Eric fresh off the ground in Annecy while Jo and Emily nurse their FOMO from home. It's the second collaboration between the two podcasts, and the energy carries that — equal parts industry analysis and genuine enthusiasm for the world's oldest animation festival, which Eric was attending for the first time in 14 years.

Eric's framing of Annecy as "the perfect picnic" runs through the whole conversation: a rare alignment of factors — a beautiful lake town, a film festival with genuinely pure independent roots, a market (MIFA) that hasn't been allowed to swallow the festival whole, and a decentralised structure that means choosing one screening means missing five others. The AI conversation gets a sharper edge than in other episodes: Eric describes a genuinely tribal atmosphere, where it's socially acceptable to be loudly anti-AI but considered "punching down" to push back the other way. Both Eric and Andy note the split between students nervous about junior roles disappearing and senior executives trying to figure out workflow integration, with a quieter middle ground that exists but speaks less loudly.

Anime emerges as the other dominant theme — not as a trend but as something Eric compares to hip-hop: permanently embedded in the culture, with everyone from the Tokyo government to a hitchhiking Czech animation collective to Warner Bros trying to find their way in. Eric's term for non-Japanese anime-influenced work, "cowboy anime," gets a real airing, alongside the Toei Animation producer's prediction that the future of anime won't be exclusively Japanese-made. There's also a sharp, important critique buried in the conversation: Eric's worry that Annecy is drifting toward becoming a B2C event dominated by corporate slate announcements, and his observation that the real energy and the real audience — the students lining up in the banlieue — are being overlooked by an industry fixated on the Imperial hotel crowd. The episode closes, fittingly, with Eric plugging his Flow-licensed merchandise line and everyone agreeing to make it to Annecy together in person next year.

Hello and welcome along to a very special episode of the Kids Media Club podcast.

We're collaborating.

We're collaborating with Surviving Animation and the great Eric Calderon.

But in.

But first things first, Emily.

Yes.

We are chatting with both Eric and Andy, who have been on the ground in Annecy.

I feel like we're just a glutton for the fomo, Jo.

Exactly.

This is like the FOMO episode.

We didn't get enough of it on the last episode.

The burnback was beating enough last time.

We needed to come back and revisit to really underline how much we missed out on.

So good to have you guys.

Thanks for having me.

So, Eric, we.

We ended up bumping into each other briefly at Annecy, and you kind of mentioned that it was your.

That you'd been.

It was your 30th anniversary.

Annecy anniversary.

And the last time you went was in.

Was about 10 years ago.

14 Years ago.

14 Years ago.

Wow.

So, of course, Eric, the first time you went, you were only five.

That's right, yes.

Well, first of all, thank you for having me and for the people on my channel.

Welcome back to Surviving Animation, your guide to make it in the business of cartoons.

We're here with the Kids Media Club podcast, and it's great because this is exactly what the industry is kind of talking about.

There are people who have gone and people who have not.

And it's tougher every year.

And for the past 14 years, I basically every year had this frustration of, like, it's not happening this year, it's not happening this year.

And this is the first year I've been back.

But it is one of those events that, you know, Andy knows very well.

It's like, if you get to go, it's such a bucket list, warm and exciting, vibrant, giant event.

And if you don't go, it's like, next year I'm going to go.

Next year I'm going to go.

So I think it really is, like, it is the apex event of animation.

Just hands down, it feels like this.

It's the one, it's the winner.

It feels like it's the one that, like, yeah, it's like, it's, it's ga.

It's gathering relevance.

Like, do you know what I mean?

Like, like, obviously it's difficult time in the industry, right?

Like, Kids Green is no longer, you know, that's the last time we were chatting, but honestly seems to be clarifying more so.

And I guess it offers lots of different things.

And we talked about this, even about Dingle.

Like, you know, it's.

It's not just transactional, it's not just a market.

It's like, it's a warm and fuzzy feeling as well.

It's obviously pain to get to, but when you get there, it's like the most beautiful location you could ever imagine, you know, so it's kind of.

It's ticking.

It's ticking lots of boxes rather than just being like, come do business, go.

Yeah, you're right.

I mean, it's.

It's a.

If there's the opposite of perfect storm, it's.

It's like the perfect picnic.

Like everything is aligning up, you know, because I think.

And you know, Andy, I kind of heard you say, what are the ingredients that makes Annecy work?

And I think first of all, it's foundation in an independent film and independent animation, and it's, you know, it's commitment to supporting artists and animators around the world, and they just never change that.

So the film festival side is so untouched and so kind of pure and so full of everything from like high school kids with their parents to college kids to like veteran, veteran filmmakers just walking these cobblestone streets.

And then I think Mipha has done a really good job of creating a partnership environment where, you know, it's not like you're putting the broadcasters up on this pedestal and saying, like, everyone wants to meet with them.

I mean, you know, all these major governments have their pavilions.

You know, there's the UK booth, the Canada booth, the Africa booth, the Taiwan booth, the Philippines booth.

And so it feels like there's this, this partnership thing going on, which is great.

And all of the side chats and all of the side panels, none of them are giant.

There's not like a 2,000 person room.

That's the film festival, that's the theater.

So, like, to choose one is to miss five.

And I think that decentralization, like kind of helps it out.

Do you think that's the reason that it's managed to keep that balance so well between the very pure celebration of animation that is equally open to kids and their parents or students and studio execs versus, you know, something that just gets over taken by the corporate.

I mean, do you think it's a function of the organizers or is it the location or what's the status?

Again, it's the perfect.

It's the perfect picnic.

I mean I say like, I don't want to put one reason on there other than like luckily they've got five or six things all just.

If any festival had one of those aspects they'd be great but this one just has five.

I mean it's got like a crystal clear lake that's hip deep.

You know, you're in the south of France and I think the journey to get there makes it more and more special.

Right.

The town is ancient.

Like I haven't, it hasn't changed.

The only thing I noticed that was different is, is electric bikes.

Like literally everything else was the same.

Yeah.

I like to think of it as a site specific work of art that you, that you kind of, you.

There is a magic quality to the location and I think the fact that it takes you a while to get there means particularly for if you've come from North America, you're more likely to stay the week.

Um, so actually there's.

I wish I'd stayed the week.

Well, yeah, but, but a lot of people arrive on Sunday even though MIFA starts on Tuesday.

And so I think there's opportunities to get a lot of your meetings in early potentially.

And yeah, it's, it's got a lot of, it's got that combination of a beautiful location.

The history of it is.

I think I'm right in saying it's the oldest animation festival in the world and, and that meeting of experience and youthful idealism.

So you've got that student contingent and that more experienced contingent and I think it's that kind of halo effect of everyone being there because of that love of animation.

I think.

Yeah, it's that final sprinkle of magic really.

Yeah.

And I, I was worried for a couple years.

I think probably, probably jealousy, probably fomo probably, you know, feeling othered.

Every time I didn't go to Annecy I was like, oh, it's just a snobby event where if like you're rich enough to go and some corporate, you know, sponsor sends you, then it's great.

But it's not the case at all.

It's very, you know, there, there's, it's like any flight, there's economy class, business class and first class for the NSC experience.

Yeah.

And ironically for people in the UK potentially it's a, it's the more accessible festival for them because it doesn't take very much to go from, to get from London to France and you can stay pretty cheaply.

There's a lot of people that go there and will get the festival Ticket and not the MIFA ticket.

And so all of that makes it actually within Europe kind of more accessible.

Yeah, and I understand that outside of Europe, that's a whole different question.

But yeah, but yeah, it's a, it's, it's quite a variety.

It has quite a variety in terms of the people that are there.

So you'll get a lot.

Yeah.

And you know, there's the cheap side and then there's, you know, Netflix, who rents the Castle at the top of the thing.

Right.

And then there's like a level celebrities there, you know, and then there's people posting.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

Ricky Gervais was there and Jermaine Clemens was, was at a party that I saw.

And then, you know, I, I was joking because I was at the, the Castle on the top of the Netflix party and Sir Peter Lord, like, you know, like, tried to go by me and kind of gave me like a little light shoulder and I was like, did, did I just fight a knight in a castle?

Like, I'm gonna say I did, you know, but then, you know, people are renting yachts, they're renting boats, they're, you know, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on these high, high end parties that were stacked on top of each other.

I mean, there were, there were nights from most of us, the industry, like, oh, Tuesday, 5pm which of the six events are you gonna go to?

And they're all catered and they're all filled.

That's interesting.

Cause I have to say, like, looking at it going as like a little solo indie here.

Like, I was looking at the schedule going like, I don't even know where to start with this.

Right.

That's what was one of the overwhelming.

I was like, I don't want to commit to this.

I don't even know where to start with this.

I need someone to explain it to me, to like, tell me what to do, tell me where to go.

Because, like, I don't even know even, like, you know, how I would get between these places.

Like, it's just, I mean, it's, it.

Is kind of overwhelming from the outside.

I would say it's like one day at Disney you're never gonna get it all.

You gotta make your plan, you know, Because I mean, the thing that really breaks my heart this year is I saw zero screenings.

I was unable to do a single screening because I couldn't buy, I forgot to buy tickets in advance, which I didn't know we had to do.

There's always a long wait to get in there.

It's at the banlieue.

You know, the banlieu is here and the mife is like pretty far away.

I was stacked 10 to 15 meetings a day and three dinners a night.

You know, when am I going to watch cartoons?

That's a lot of cheese and wine.

Oh my.

At the end, I mean, this lactose intolerant body with like stacking lactate pills was like, no, that's it.

No more cheese.

Like you're done.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so what was the vibe there from an industry perspective?

Like people are still hopeful.

It like, it feels like it's, you know, as I said, it's one of the one event that still is really clarifying in terms of relevance.

Like, what was the vibe?

Man, there's so many kinds of vibes.

You know, I. I think the first thing is there was a lot of nervousness and anxiety about AI.

You know, it was the.

The properly picketed subject, you know?

You know, are you.

Are you team for or team against there?

There's no in between right now.

And even the people who try to speak neutrally about it will find themselves slipping to one side.

And even if you're a little bit.

I think there is an in between, but I think it's the unspoken, try,.

Try, I dare you.

But having some conversations there, I definitely think the middle is shifting, but they're just being less vocal about it.

But Eddie, you're also like a rational, intelligent, experienced industry professional.

You're not an angry art student, you're not an angry film director.

So as rational as you can be, there are people who are just going to slide it over and scream at you because they have emotions.

Did you find that both sides of the conversation were respected?

Is it the kind of place where you can air your opinion and have someone who isn't necessarily of the same opinion say, well, you know what?

Fair enough.

We're in the middle of this thing.

We're still trying to work it out.

This might reveal my bias, but I feel like it is okay to scream and yell and say bloody murder.

If you're anti AI, it is not okay to do it the other way.

Oh yeah, because you're punching down then I think, yeah, you're punching down if you do that.

Or you sound like you're having boomer energy.

If you're like, everyone's going to use it, just get over it.

Boomer energy.

Boomer energy.

And AI, conversations aside, what other kind of conversations happen there?

Because I was really.

And I guess because I've never been, you know, are they creative conversations, are they funding conversations?

Is their business done there or is it more amorphous than that?

I think there is, I think there is business done there as much as there is at any market.

But sometimes they're, they're the initial relationship building and conversations that will then bear fruit outside of, outside of the market and the festival.

But I'm sure there are deals being made that there's a lot of.

My impression is that it's become much more of a place for the corporates to make big announcements.

That's exactly what I was going to say.

Definitely.

Yeah.

I think they're, they're the one thing I fear for Annecy is they're sliding into the assumption that it's a B2C event and if it slides that way it's going to change the, the taste of the place.

Because if you're filling all the hours with announcements, right, you're becoming Comic Con, you know, and you're becoming an event that is really just pushing out corporate messaging.

Like I worry about that like, because I don't know who in the audience really cares.

You know, I think it's a flex for the distributors.

You know, if you're doing back to back, you know, you're doing a Warner Brothers panel that's going to announce your like next slate of seven or eight shows to a group of indie animators and other buyers and sellers.

Like, is that really an effective use of PR effort?

Like I, I, I wonder it could.

It gets you press, you know, it gets your attention.

But I'm not really sure.

Like I always start to question what's the value of that because, you know, seven, eight people, corporate travel, hotels, meals, badges.

So you could all sit on the stage and tell 200 people that you've got seven new shows.

Presumably the, the usual suspects in terms of press are there as well.

Right, right.

And they're starting to come with celebrities.

They're coming like with the Ricky Gervais's and the Jermaine Clements and the Brad Birds, you know.

So is it a corporate perk?

Bad perk?

Yeah.

Right.

But I think that those, that kind of star power that they bring to the festival, I think there is a bit where some of that kind of can rub off to the benefit of other people that are showcasing their stuff at the festival as well.

Because, because they can, you know, they can say that they're, they're presenting the same festival that all of these kind of star names are presenting that as well.

So I think that.

That does help me.

Just so long as the star names don't just take up all of the bandwidth and.

Bandwidth.

I mean, I think this year it's.

People haven't talked about it too much unless they actually worked on the project.

But I'm very happy that Irvin Ann, a producer from Robot.

Not Party Robot.

Party.

Not Robot.

Party Robot.

I forget the name of his product.

Sorry.

Irvin, the violinist.

Yeah, the violinist won the, you know, the feature film prize.

And I think that's a big statement.

I mean, that film has been in the indie development world for a decade, you know, and for that to win, I think that's a big.

That really is good for the festival.

It's good for the filmmaker, it's good for the industry.

You know, you start giving all those prizes away to the big, you know, $200 million feature films, you're going to.

You're going to lose the scent.

Yeah, but no one really talks about outrage.

Those smaller indies to go off and do their own thing somewhere else.

Right, right, right, right.

I think the other conversation I've been tracking, which.

Which is now difficult to keep track of, is the anime and anime adjacent announcements, you know, I mean, the.

They were coming thick and fast.

They were.

And they're all different, and they're all some version of fully Japanese or fully not Japanese.

The Tokyo government was there in full power in multiple booths and multiple areas.

You know, they were.

They were really making a lot of noise.

And, you know, like, I was like, oh, I'm going to summarize all these.

And there's.

There's like a dozen, maybe 15 announcements.

It's just hard to even, like, remember everything happening.

And so do you think that kind of.

That genre is really beefing out in terms of, like, its presence at the festival like that where it wasn't before?

I think so.

I think so.

And it's funny, I saw it from, like, two very different angles.

One was like, the Japanese government push, you know, they bring a lot of their directors and production companies and creatives.

Then there was like, the Western company Fusion push, you know, which was like all, you know, Warner Brothers doing the new Scooby Doo or Warner Brothers and anime and Warner Brothers doing like a whole webtoons thing where they're, like, combining with all these titles.

And then, like, crazily.

I spent a lot of time with a small Czechoslovakian company.

I mean, these guys are like, all under 30.

You know, they hitchhiked to Annecy, you know, after, like, kind of like it was the last Mile.

They just couldn't get to.

They literally hitchhiked.

And then I looked at like this graduate students film, you know, that was showing a trailer 100% Japanese anime style.

Like there was no Czechoslovakian touch in there at all.

It was.

And so it's like you can see the convergence of all this, like making anime the elephant in the room for the new style for a generation.

And do you think that's a function of, is it just a trend thing?

Will the next thing come along?

Or do you think that this is people actually saying now, actually, now this is viable, we're allowed to go and pitch some of this at these kind of events?

Yes and yes.

I mean, I feel I've been saying this for couple years now, but you know, it's, it's become hip hop, you know, it is so deeply embedded in every part of the culture that's never going to be removed.

And just to not have it.

There is now a statement, you know, but now businesses are like, how do we cash in?

So Tokyo government's moving, you know, there was some big news recently about, you know, foreign companies and foreign agencies saying like, oh, we need to regulate anime and manga.

And the Japanese government saying, stay out of our business.

Like it's our art form.

You have no say, no say at all.

We're protecting our culture, we're protecting our things.

So no thank you, sir.

And then everyone's trying to figure out how can they do these?

What's the formula?

Everyone's like, what is the formula?

Do we do more episodes that are cheaper?

Do we do these high budget action splashes?

Oh, maybe we throw Western IP on their own or maybe we get the top webtoon.

So like everyone's, everyone wants a way in to have their one piece, their Dragon Ball, their Demon Slayer, their attack on Titan and the kids, they want to make their attack on Titan and their Jujutsu Kaisen.

Yeah.

So it's like again, it's like the perfect picnic.

Everything comes with its own problems and challenges.

So kind of when anime was starting, it was about how you produced it and a lot of the decisions were made because they couldn't do stuff.

So, you know, you'd had a character with the back of their head to you so you didn't have to worry about lip sync.

And right now it's kind of almost dealing with the problems that comes with the success as well.

Right, right.

And people are starting to really figure it out.

And I think, you know, in the way that it took K Pop and J Pop Like a while to find its own unique footing and for a while just felt derivative.

And now it's, you know, flip the script.

I feel like the, the non Japanese anime.

And you know, you have the producer from toei animation, right, Mr. Osama, saying the future of anime is not going to be Japanese only produced anime.

I think we're gonna find out what is gonna be that Brit anime, that franime, that Kanime, that cowboy anime.

Like, you know, and we're gonna.

Oh, I got all the puns.

I'm like, yeah, you need to trademark all of these quick.

That's right, exactly.

But, you know, I've been using cowboy anime for like a couple years, which is like any animation that is anime inspired, where the creative center is not Japan.

And I met a woman who made a company called Cowboy Anime.

Like, she was.

She wrote me a nice message like, can I use the name?

I was like, I'm not a very smart guy.

Go ahead, just take it.

I'm not going to charge you.

So who should be, who should be going to this?

Who should be going?

Producers, distributors, like everybody, everybody in the, in the, in the kids industry or, or, or, or anyone who's interested in animation.

Like, what is.

It's.

Yeah, it's Mecca.

It's Mecca.

You've got to make, you got to make a journey a couple of times in your career.

It's like you have to touch those cobblestones.

You got to drink the water out of the fountain that's like pouring out there.

You got to put your feet in the water.

You got to stand up for a couple, you got to go to a couple screenings.

And so, you know, they have this thing where everyone throws paper airplanes at the screen and, and then everyone says, because they, they hide a secret rabbit in the opening sequence and when you spot it, you yell.

And you know, I talked to a director who was like.

I talked to director who was like, oh, yeah, you know, we were throwing paper airplanes and everything was settled, lights were going down and one little plane just sailed out and then it just curved and it landed in the recycling bin and.

And the place went absolutely nuts.

That's great.

I was at a presentation where initially the producer and director who were new to Annecy, were a bit like, dude, why does this guy keep throwing airplanes at us?

They have to explain.

Actually, it was a positive.

It was a compliment.

Yeah.

But yeah, yeah, it's very special.

Yeah.

I mean, I think if you are interested or working in animation is the place to go to, or just being.

Inspired, you know, I mean, yeah, and.

I, and I thought it was had and it had a very positive vibe this year which, which not all of the markets have had in the last couple of years.

But it's back to this thing where it's an, it's an experience, not just an event.

Right.

Like it's something that, like you say, Eric, and it fires on five cylinders.

If it fired on one, it would be enough to go.

But because it's bringing all these different elements together, that's what makes it so special and makes the feeling of it so good.

And so do you, do you, given that one would assume that if you, if you're feeling the vibrations you're going to get a heads up on what's coming down the pipe.

So we've spoken about AI, we spoke about anime.

Is there anything else as you were wandering around, particularly as someone who's not been for a while, Eric, is there anything that you thought that's interesting?

That's a, that's a on my watching brief list.

Yeah, I mean I, I, I think the kids are all right.

You know, I think that they got a vibe for what's going to work on social media.

They've got like an intuition for how their indie film can break through on TikTok.

They've all, you know, you know, I, I, Surviving Animation had a big year so I'm very happy because I had like kids stopping me in the street saying, aren't you the surviving animation guy?

And I was like, yes, I am.

She had tattoos all over you.

I did, yeah.

My temporary tattoo is like still, still there.

You need to send me an Emily one.

I will.

I've got Emily.

Yeah.

Eric's given me three.

So next time we all meet up.

But I feel like in a similar way that kids Screen did, too little too late.

There's this great, there's this great compression into the middle of expertise, you know, where there's a lot of, you know, senior executives trying to figure out how social media works and a lot of, you know, people up and coming going, oh, how does the traditional broadcast work?

So I feel like this conversation is going to get better and better every year and I hope that Annecy lets us mix more because what I don't like is that Mipha and the imperial past is like this, like, you know, this, this class system.

Yes.

Where like all the rich and powerful people are here and the real energy is in the street of the banlieue where there are thousands and thousands of people lining up and I'm like, guys, we're missing.

The audience is right there.

Yeah.

And there's no excuse not to be there in the middle of it.

That's right.

Right.

So I found myself going, yes, I did have to do the eight, 10 meetings every day, you know, at, at the Imperial, but every time I got to the Banliyo and I, like, met a student, you know, I was delivering flow blankets to like, you know, people in front of it and just talking to them and like opening up their Instagram.

Instagram accounts and seeing them follow me and then looking at them, I'm like, oh my God, there's so much talent here.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the, the grownups are missing it.

They're missing it, they're missing it.

Yeah, yeah.

So I feel like there's something in the middle.

I mean, it was so horribly hot, as everyone's going to tell you every minute of their post, but if they can find a way to make the infrastructure more palpable without destroying the town, I mean, that's going to be the question.

Right?

Yeah.

We spoke about it on a recent podcast how that gap is something that we really have to make concerted effort to close because creators and students and young people, they've got so much knowledge that we need to learn and similarly, we've got tons that we need to pass over to them.

The thing is, they're going to move towards us much quicker than currently the established kind of studio system and the old traditional media system is moving towards, back towards them.

So we need to just come together a lot quicker.

I'm hoping that Annecy and I'll manifest this out into the world.

Annecy needs to speak to more producers who understand location based entertainment because what they've done is they've treated it like a film festival that's small and a MIFA market that is the model of the last 30 years.

But they're not capitalizing on the event as location based entertainment.

You know, they have the screening, which is great.

You know, they have the outdoor, the grand ecran, you know, the big outdoor theater.

So they have a couple of these big things, but I feel like if they could just dial up the experience, I think they could really mesh those two together, you know?

Yeah,.

Yeah.

You hear that, Annecy?

You need a producer who understands location based entertainment.

Pitch, pitch, pitch.

There we go.

Always be selling.

Yeah,.

Great.

I feel, I feel like my FOMO has been assuaged a little bit, Emily, but I definitely think we need to book our tickets for next year, like worse.

And it's not Always even happening anymore.

Yes.

See, see you there.

2027.

Okay, deal.

Definitely.

Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure.

Awesome.

Fabulous.

Yeah.

Well, great to speak with you, Aroake.

Yeah, sorry, your name's about your spelling.

I'll take Eroik.

I kind of like Eroik.

It's a not very interesting name, so I appreciate it.

Like.

No, really good to speak to you.

Always a pleasure.

And do we get friends and family discount on the flow throws?

That's what I want to know.

Oh, that's right.

You know, if I do my final plug, I went straight from Annecy, I dropped home for 24 hours and I'm here in St. Louis, Missouri selling my blankets, the flow throw and the recently announced lovey, which is the smaller fleece and the step which is kind of like a bath mat.

My pun is every great journey begins with one.

And you know, flow is really a journey of a movie.

So yeah, I went straight from Annecy to, you know, selling licensed merchandise at a live orchestra screening of the Oscar award winning movie Flow.

So yeah, yeah, we'll get, we'll definitely give you the, the friends a discount on all, all products.

Good, good, good.

You gotta get the bundle.

Yeah, there you go, the bundle.

Oh, the bundle.

Emily, you're genius.

I should have done a bundle, obviously.

Did you get a bond, Eric?

I know that's the other one business.

Advice will be after, after the episode.

Consulting.

Yeah, I'm gonna consult, get a consultation from you guys.

Fabulous.

That was great.

Well, thanks very much for that, Eric.

We've really enjoyed this first collaboration.

Well, this is our second kids meeting, our second collaboration and surviving animation collaboration.

Hope you guys at home have enjoyed it and we'll kind of catch you again next week.