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Spring Outside: REI Creative Lead Jonathan Springer
Episode 1413th September 2024 • Snap Decisions • Brian Marks & John Young
00:00:00 00:42:07

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Proving brands don’t need to spend big on ad agencies, REI’s in-house creative team is delivering high-impact marketing campaigns while showcasing the brand’s true purpose. Internal creative director Jonathan Springer joins us to share how the REI team recently launched its Opt Outside campaign. Anchored by a smart, beautiful commercial – shot on actual film AND featuring music by our hometown Philly band, Dr. Dog – Opt Outside creates a brand platform across media channels for REI. Hear Springer talk about the craft of communications, working on a brand with purpose, and the differences between in-house teams and ad agencies. (And no, the birds chirping in the background aren’t sound effects; Springer was simply letting the great outdoors join our session.)

Key topics & chapter markers 

(00:52): Snap Decisions Lightning Round: Which brand does it better?

(03:46): Introducing Jonathan Springer, REI creative director

(06:02): REI’s Opt Outside campaign

(08:39): Dr. Dog asks: Where does all the time go?

(10:01): How the campaign reflects the brand purpose

(14:18): Managing an in-house creative team/ Internal vs. agency resources

(24:26): Finding and guiding creative talent

(29:40): Measuring brand performance

(31:29): Shooting on film!

Background content

REI Co-op Opt Outside - YouTube

Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmarks13/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-l-young/

Transcripts

John:

Hey, hey, hey, welcome back, Brian.

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Brian: Hey, John, how was your summer?

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John: Uh, lightning fast.

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I don't remember a thing about it.

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How about you?

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Brian: Yeah, same.

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John: What have we been doing?

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Brian: I don't know.

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I don't know.

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Is it 2028 or something?

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John: know what we haven't been doing?

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Brian: what's that?

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John: Recording a podcast.

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So let's get to it.

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Hey,

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Brian: Let's get in it.

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John: all right.

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So we have an interesting

guest today from REI.

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Who's going to talk about a campaign that

was created by an internal creative group.

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Uh, and it got me thinking, Brian,

about, um, I guess we always think

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about how brands show up in the world.

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You're ready to go.

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All

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Fire away.

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John: I've got a Snap Decisions

lightning round for you.

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Are you ready for that?

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Brian: Yes.

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Bring it.

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Yeah.

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John: So thinking about how brands show

up in general through their marketing, I'm

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not talking necessarily about advertising.

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That's one way, but could be packaging

could be, you know, emails you

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get from this brand or whatever.

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I'm going to give you some brands.

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I want you to tell me which

of them do a better job of

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consistently making you understand.

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what they stand for.

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You with me?

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And maybe a little bit of why.

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So here we go.

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Brian: All right.

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I'll do my best.

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John: Coming in strong

with Apple or Microsoft.

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Brian: Apple, I mean, come on.

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I mean, Microsoft shows up better in the

world than they used to, but I mean, it's

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not, it's not even really a competition.

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I still, there's so many things

that Microsoft does that I just

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don't understand, I don't think.

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And, uh, I just think Apple makes

it really simple to know what they,

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what they do and how it impacts you.

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John: Agree.

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All right.

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How about let's go to a different

category, our favorite insurance,

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progressive or Allstate.

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Brian: Um, I'm going

to go, uh, progressive.

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John: Okay.

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Brian: I just, yeah, I, I feel like

they, uh, they stand out a little

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better and, um, it connects more.

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John: Well, they're relentlessly

consistent with Flo and that other guy.

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I can't stand it, but okay.

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, All right, Brian, this

is right up your alley.

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Technology.

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Brian: Yeah.

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John: Workday or Salesforce.

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Brian: I'm going to say

Salesforce mostly because you

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can't stand Matthew McConaughey.

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John: I forgot about him

doing that, but yeah.

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Okay.

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How about switching categories

to, travel and hospitality.

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Airbnb or Marriott?

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Brian: Airbnb.

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I think they're hitting

it out of the park.

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John: Yeah.

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Yeah, that's a really

nice type brand, isn't it?

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah,

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John: Um, okay.

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Um, a band, a, uh, here's a

category that spends a ton of money.

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Uh, I don't know if they do a good job

of making anyone care, but they do spend

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money on marketing in every channel.

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Verizon Wireless or T Mobile?

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Brian: yeah, I'm gonna go Verizon.

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T Mobile's just annoying.

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John: Yeah.

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Okay.

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Um, and then we're going to go to, um, a

more fun category to close it out here.

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Lite, the classic, or Mike's

Hard Lemonade, the startup.

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Brian: Yeah, I'm a sucker

for the classic Miller Lite.

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To me, uh, they're kinda

undefeated right now, so.

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John: They still go back to that

tastes great, less filling, don't they?

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Brian: Hey man, tried and true.

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If it works, it works,

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John: Can't miss it.

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Brian: Yeah, I think they'll

always come back to that.

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, John: Let's move on and introduce

our guest, who has a lot to say

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about creating consumer perceptions

about what a brand means.

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He started his career working for an ad

agency as a designer and his growth over

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the years as an art director took him from

agencies in Kansas city to New York city.

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Where he grew a skill set that

covers pretty much every marketing

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channel from print to digital to TV.

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And he's done work that positions and

promotes stuff from bread to phone

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service to video games to insurance

and a lot of stuff in between.

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, Jonathan Springer has supported

agency clients who are large and

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small, including brands like Southwest

Airlines, Whole Foods, the U.

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S.

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Army, AT& T, eBay, just to name a few.

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And then he moved to REI where he is

a creative director for an in house

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team building ads and promotions and

digital units and everything you can

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think of he caught our attention a

couple months ago in early June with a

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LinkedIn post where he shared the launch

of a new opt outside campaign, which

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is a line that's now populating pretty

much everything that comes out of REI.

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Uh, he's also just back from a

bucket list trip where he spent two

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weeks in Paris for the Olympics.

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Please welcome Jonathan Springer.

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Springer: Wow.

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I'm blushing.

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Thank you.

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John: Yeah.

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Springer: Not going to be here.

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John: Yeah.

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Thanks.

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Thanks so much for joining us.

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Um, love to start the

conversation with that campaign.

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I, that really caught our eye.

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My brief description is it's, it

opens on a young woman who's kind of

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going through the daily grind of life.

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and it resolves to her

escape to the outdoors.

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And, you know, we liked

everything about it.

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Uh, there's a terrific, music track

behind it from a local band that Brian

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and I have liked for a while, Dr.

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Dog, and reveals a tagline of don't

let life distract you from living.

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Jonathan, can you kind of, Talk us

through that video in particular.

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You don't necessarily have to do it

the way you pitched it internally,

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but explain to someone who hasn't

seen that, that campaign video,

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explain it to us and, uh, and any other

campaign extensions you want to talk.

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Springer: Yeah, absolutely.

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Uh, and first I would say,

feel free to call me Springer.

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The opt outside campaign, it's something

that we've been talking, I've been,

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I've been at REI for about two years

now, and one of the big things that

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I pitched when I was interviewing

was just how much I really loved the

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original opt outside platform when

it came out, about 10 years ago.

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and I just loved how it was a.

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A brand that stood for

something and took an action.

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and it was very simple, but yet

powerful in the marketplace.

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And so that was just a brand

that resonated with me.

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And I think throughout all of my agency

times, it's a brand that's resonated.

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And so when we started thinking about

how we want to reposition and what's our

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new brand platform for REA coming out?

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You know, we, we had done a few iterations

and I think we always just came back

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to, why isn't it just opt outside?

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Why can't we just own that?

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there's something really powerful.

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I think that's what everybody, you

know, quote unquote, everybody kind of

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knew us for and still does know us for.

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So how can we own that equity

that's already built in that?

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Um, and you know, actually live

that almost every single day.

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And that kind of, you know, circulated

for about a year and a half.

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And then we finally decided,

yeah, let's, let's do it.

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Um, this makes a lot of sense.

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I think the time is right.

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There's, you know, obviously some,

some headwinds and tailwinds that

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we're facing in culture that actually

allow that as well to happen.

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And so we, Went forward with it.

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And I think the team, you

know, did an amazing job.

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Huge shout out to, to Sam and

Matt, art director, copy and Angie.

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I'm bad ass designer.

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Um, who just really came up with the

entire system and, you know, Ryan

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Moline, I have to mention him as well.

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Um, who just really

brought it all together.

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It's just a great idea.

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It's a great line.

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It's very simple.

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And I think what the team did and

the strategy team really helped us do

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is identify some, you know, cultural

tension right now about how People

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just feel that time isn't theirs.

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They feel like, you know, there's a

lot of autopilot going on right now.

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we're all kind of doing the same thing

every single day, , it's always a

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bunch of cycles and it just kind of

seems like we're in the same patterns.

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So how do we break out of that?

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And how does the outdoors really

play into something like that?

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I think the team came up with exactly

what you described in the beginning.

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You know, someone's story of just going

through those motions day in and day out.

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and then finally choosing opting, right?

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And that's what we really focused on

here was the opt of that line of opt

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outside and having someone make a

conscious decision to break free, say

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enough is enough and take back some of

what they can, take back some control

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and literally just go have fun outside.

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so that was kind of the crux of it.

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you mentioned the Dr.

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Dog track.

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Um, it was actually one of like,

it's a main character in this

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John: yeah, it really is.

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Springer: Uh, we have no VO, in the spot.

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, there's no , speaking

roles from our talent.

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Um, you know, there's some, some

ambient laughter and stuff like that.

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But the, the team again

just came with this track.

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I, I had never heard of it before.

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Sorry, apologies.

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I'd never heard of, uh, Dr.

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Dog.

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Um, but when I heard this track,

I was like, that's pretty amazing.

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It's pretty perfect.

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John: Yeah.

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You couldn't have composed

something as I do, right?

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Like where does the time

go is literally the lyric.

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It's like tease up your

campaign so nicely.

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, Springer: and it just has a

great beat, a great melody.

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it's got a lot of energy, lots

of ups and downs, a lot of drama

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with it, exactly what we're

portraying, um, when we're shooting.

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Brian: feels like life.

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Springer: it just feels,

it felt, it felt great.

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so when we were combining that with

the amazing footage, getting us

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all of this film, all of this was

shot on film, by the way, which was

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John: Is anybody shooting on film anymore?

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That seems so rare.

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Springer: was, that was a challenge.

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I think like getting the team to say,

Hey, yes, you can go and, spend money on

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a singular track and you can spend money

on an entire film shoot was a big push, I

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think internally, but the result is just.

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we love it.

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and you know, Kodak loves it.

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Kodak reposted it.

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, Yeah, I think overall, I think just the

message was very simple of, you know,

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don't let life distract you from living.

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Choose to live life outside.

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John: Yeah, seems, seems like a perfect

match to the marketing strategy.

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And you mentioned the, the whole idea of

opt out side, or opt out, as a campaign,

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, so just for, for our listeners, if you

missed it somehow, back in:

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really created news when You did something

that seemed really anti retail by closing

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all of your stores on Black Friday and

encouraged employees and customers to

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skip shopping and connect with nature.

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So That move and the kind of the

underlying brand idea there shows, I would

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argue, an understanding of customers and

an empathy for customers that most brands

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don't have the guts to, to represent.

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how does that brand idea

permeate the culture at REI?

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Like, is that really true to, you

know, the internal culture and, you

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know, And do you feel a responsibility

to steward that broader positioning

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when you create market imagery?

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Obviously you just did, but you

know, have you always felt that?

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Springer: Yeah, I mean, personally,

that was one of the reasons why I

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wanted to work for REI and make the

shift from agency to going in house

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and I think I got really lucky by my,

my first experience being in house

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at REI because they actually believe

that, that work life balance going from

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working, you know, 70, 80 hour weeks

in agency land to, you know, Working

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40 hours and going to fuck off outside.

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Like, it's amazing.

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It's like, what more could you ask for?

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and I, and I do believe we value

that we have things like way days.

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it's like, go out and be in nature.

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go help your community, do your part,

um, on your time, your, you know,

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specific way of getting outside.

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we still, um, close our

doors every day for the past.

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You know, 10 years on Black Friday.

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It's a permanent thing now.

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Like we don't have to make

it some big announcement.

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It's just who we are.

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It's part of our DNA.

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Um,

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John: other outdoor companies

have joined you, right?

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Like other companies also closed

on Black Friday now, sort of a part

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of a broader movement you created.

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Yeah.

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Springer: It's still amazing to see

like the headlines of other brands

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and companies, like when they close

on Black Friday, it's, it's still big

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news and it's great to think, yeah, the

company I work for, they started that.

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We started that.

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,

Brian: I love is like, you have this thing that, Was so successful

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that everything that you do is

going to be measured against that.

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And, and you guys decided like, this is

who we are, like, why are we, why are

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we trying to spin in other directions

that will ultimately just be measured

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against like, this is who we are.

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So let's just be it.

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And it's kind of like, I'm sure

liberating to be like, let's just

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really continue to dive into this.

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And, and it, cause it is who we are

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Springer: absolutely.

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, It feels real.

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And I think when you, when, as a

brand, when you're lucky enough

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to find something that feels that

real, I mean, it's just great work.

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It's just going to permeate from that.

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there's no more burden of having

to compete with that because

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you, you're just living that.

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sure.

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You still have the pressure of

like, they closed on Black Friday.

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Amazing idea.

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Brian: somewhere.

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Yeah.

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Springer: and so, yeah, there will always

be that, um, but just the fact that we

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know that amazing idea started something

that will continue to be amazing.

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And what we, we as a brand can own

for quite a long time, if not forever.

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Brian: And I think that that was really

a peak in the craziness of black Friday.

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And I feel like it kind of brought

everybody back to normalcy a little

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bit, because brands aren't afraid to

like, Not go to just ridiculous lengths

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on, you know, the lines and waiting

and getting in on, on black Friday.

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And, and now.

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now it's okay to just like,

let's just let people, you know,

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live their life a little bit.

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So,

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Springer: That's, you know, the

balance that we as a retailer

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have to live with as well.

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Like right after Black Friday,

you know, there's still holiday.

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There's still sales going on and

we, you know, we're, are still

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ultimately, you know, But we'd

choose on one of the busiest,

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days of retail to say, it's crazy.

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Like there's a better way to

spend your time than in line

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for an awesome pair of shoes.

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I mean, unless they're really awesome.

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Right.

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Um,

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John: talking about those shoes.

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so, Jonathan, it seems to us like a lot

of, um, what consumers get exposed to,

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especially on holiday season, is some

big, slick, glossy productions, a lot

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of times built by, you know, traditional

ad agencies and big brands, but we

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know that a lot of brands are starting

to create these in house, creative,

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uh, Either agencies or creative teams

or, production teams or whatever.

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Can you talk about RAI's

in house agency setup?

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Are you guys, is it just a creative team?

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Do you still use outside agencies?

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Springer: Yeah, for sure.

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I wouldn't say that we consider

ourselves an agency, but we are

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about the size of a small agency.

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We have, you know, everyone from

designers, copywriters, art directors,

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associate creative directors, CDs.

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we're headed, you know, led by

what's like in a traditional agency

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would be an ECD on the role as well.

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so I mean, We're staffed pretty

traditionally, like an agency.

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. I think the big difference is, is

we work extremely closely with the

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day to day clients, quote unquote,

that you would have at an agency.

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we're in this

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John: So, as in, like, folks

in the marketing team and,

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Springer: Yeah, folks definitely on

the marketing team, um, integration.

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We work with our merch partners.

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People are buying the

stuff that we're selling.

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Um, we work with, our membership team,

because again, remember REI is a co op.

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we're member based.

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John: proud member right here.

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Springer: That's right.

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Thank you.

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and yeah, so, I mean, there's a lot

of factors that go into it and that's

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one of the, the big differences.

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,

John: And do you use outside agencies at all?

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Springer: Yeah, we have, we have some,

you know, help with specific channels.

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especially when we do productions as well.

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We, we definitely use outside,

agencies and vendors that,

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John: You've worked both sides, right?

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You've worked for an agency and

now you're working as kind of

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like an internal creative guy.

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What are the, what are the pros

and the cons of those two things?

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What's easier?

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What's harder?

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Springer: nothing is easy.

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It's work.

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I bounced around to a lot.

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think I was in maybe eight

agencies before I made the move.

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And.

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What's great about agency life

is I think first and foremost,

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it's, it's creative first.

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All the clients come to agencies

because they're like, we don't

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have this type of creativity or

this way of thinking internal.

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and we need, we need help with that.

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We need help to be able to tell our story.

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We need help to be able to get

what's on this piece of paper that

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we have an awesome strategy for,

but just out to the masses so that

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they care about us as a brand.

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It's a different way of thinking.

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and I think when they hire an

agency, they realize that that's

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what they're hiring, and agencies, I

feel tend to cater to that as well.

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the culture is a little bit different.

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and again, we're all working towards

delivering an amazing creative product.

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The variety at agencies

is also really amazing.

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You get to work on a lot of different

clients, really fast, really quick.

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sometimes that's also

a double edged sword.

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because you're working on a lot of

clients you may not actually care about.

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, Brian: in terms of like learning curve

was, was it just for you, was it kind of

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navigating the, the environment of just

having to sell in different things in a

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different way and having to work closely

with people that were maybe not as close

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to creative as you've always worked with?

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Springer: In house is, is

different, um, considerably.

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And I, and why I mentioned agencies

are, I believe are creative first and

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foremost is I, you know, and this isn't

a knock, um, on in house, like just in

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house isn't first and foremost about.

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:

It's about the bottom line of how we're

beating these goals and these KPIs and

385

:

these objectives and creative is a part

of that, but it's not the only thing.

386

:

Oh my gosh.

387

:

Like terrible beat down

my ego right there.

388

:

When I have to say that, like

creative isn't the only thing.

389

:

Brian: Headline from this.

390

:

Springer: Ooh, I mean, ooh,

hyperventilating, but no, like, um,

391

:

John: We're here for you Springer.

392

:

Springer: um, no, it's like, you're,

you're part of something much larger.

393

:

Right.

394

:

And you're all working towards this goal.

395

:

Um, and again, creative is a part of that.

396

:

Create, it's not the only solve.

397

:

And I think that's, um, something that I'm

still learning and I'm still adjusting to,

398

:

Brian: yeah.

399

:

And, you know, forever, you know,

like you said, people bring in

400

:

agencies because they don't want them

to have to think about that stuff.

401

:

They want to think about the

creative and can they think about

402

:

that without the other noise?

403

:

And that's kind of how it's always been.

404

:

But, um, I'm sure that.

405

:

You know, you're able to provide a nice

cover for people that work for you and,

406

:

and let them focus on, you know, being

creative first as much as possible and,

407

:

Springer: yeah, that's, that's the goal.

408

:

Um, I mean, but again, we're, we're

All we all as creators have chosen to

409

:

be inside this brand and go in house.

410

:

John: So, uh, switching attention a

little bit to outside the organization.

411

:

Are there brands out there that are

creating campaigns with in house

412

:

talent like your team that you admire?

413

:

Anything you've noticed that

you know was created in house

414

:

that you think is just great?

415

:

Springer: Yeah, I would say Uber is

doing a really great job right now.

416

:

I used to work with, the head of, you

know, that, that creative team, at an

417

:

agency land, an ex, a lot of agency

people have gone in house to that team

418

:

and she's just built an amazing team.

419

:

And I think some of the work that they

did, you know, particularly around,

420

:

you know, some of the Olympics and how

they get their name out there almost.

421

:

in different ways.

422

:

Some of the celebrities

that they bring on.

423

:

I think that's a great brand.

424

:

I even thought, you know,

before,, Burger King was doing

425

:

great stuff, I think, in house.

426

:

They did use a lot of agencies,

um, but I think their, their

427

:

CMO was a big part of that.

428

:

Those are the kind of couple

that come to mind quickly.

429

:

John: Yeah, I'm amazed at some of the

stuff I see coming out of Google in

430

:

particular with in house creative.

431

:

And sometimes it's hard to know because,

you know, you're using a combination

432

:

of inside and outside resources.

433

:

Some campaigns are in

house, some are agency.

434

:

It's hard to know, but,

435

:

how about other trends

in marketing right now?

436

:

you know, obviously, AI tools is

becoming an everyday conversation.

437

:

Brian and I have talked to other

brands about using influencers.

438

:

Any of these trends that kind

of like top of mind for you and

439

:

what are you thinking about them?

440

:

Springer: Yeah, I mean, AI is something

we've, we've talked about a lot.

441

:

I think ad nauseum internally.

442

:

and it's, it's one thing that, you

know, we, we represent something very

443

:

natural and it's, it's not artificial.

444

:

You can literally go right outside

and it's real and you can touch grass.

445

:

and so how does that, That tool

of AI actually benefit and help

446

:

us, um, in a way that doesn't feel

fake or forced or, unauthentic

447

:

John: Does REI have, uh, policies

like clear policies yet on how

448

:

you will or won't use generative

AI, or is that still emerging?

449

:

Springer: it, it's still emerging.

450

:

you know, we're, we're, we're dabbling in

it as creatives and just seeing like what

451

:

it can do, but still, like, it's not, you

can tell it's, it, it, it doesn't feel.

452

:

It doesn't feel right for us quite yet.

453

:

I'm not sure if it ever will.

454

:

Like, I'm sure people

said that about Photoshop.

455

:

I'm sure people said that about

Figma and Rain, like other tools.

456

:

It's, I don't think it's the way or the,

you know, I think it's going to be again,

457

:

another tool that we, we shouldn't avoid.

458

:

but it's, we have to figure out how,

how to use it and what's the best way.

459

:

how do we own stuff on there and

not, not steal, artist creations.

460

:

I think that's something very real

that we're looking at as well.

461

:

where I 20 something, you know,

million member co op, like.

462

:

Can that somehow become our

database of source of information?

463

:

If people are willing to opt into

something like that, like where is our

464

:

information source come from and how

do we build from it as opposed to just.

465

:

trusting blindly that these companies are

doing it respectfully and responsibly.

466

:

So yeah, it's something that

we think about a lot right now,

467

:

but there's nothing solidified.

468

:

We're still shooting on film.

469

:

John: I was going to say, yeah,

there's a long, it's a long walk

470

:

from a film to, uh, AI created, uh,

video footage clips of three seconds.

471

:

Brian: Yeah.

472

:

And like, Can you talk about how

you guys are using, , or engaging

473

:

with user generated content?

474

:

I mean, I can only imagine the

amount of people that are tagging you

475

:

guys from the stuff they're doing,

being inspired by you guys, and I'm

476

:

sure you guys get inspired back.

477

:

Springer: Yeah.

478

:

I mean, it's something that we're actively

looking at yesterday, today, probably in

479

:

an hour when I hop off of this, like it's,

Becoming just member, you know, kind of

480

:

obsessed, um, and just putting members at

our forefront is very topical right now.

481

:

how we do that, how we do that responsibly

again, you know, is, is, again,

482

:

Something that we have to investigate.

483

:

There's campaigns and there's

opportunities for us to 100 percent just

484

:

give the camera to our members and say

there you go, go have fun and create.

485

:

we're starting to, you know, go back

through some of our archive of our

486

:

footage and pull forward footage

that feels very UGC of the members.

487

:

You know, that's, that's some of that

stuff's already out in the world, and

488

:

it'll continue to trickle out, in Q4 and

Q1, but yeah, I think it's, it's something

489

:

that we're, we're looking at right now,

just how to do ethically and responsibly,

490

:

so we just don't take advantage of this

member group, but also, you know, utilize

491

:

them as, as talent, as photographers,

As the resource that they actually are.

492

:

Brian: Your brand is the, how

people use it and, and, and it's the

493

:

feeling that they, that they have.

494

:

It's not just what you want it to be.

495

:

So, um, to be able to

have that as is fantastic.

496

:

John: Yeah.

497

:

I think Brian, your, your

question about user generated

498

:

content is really interesting.

499

:

Cause like as a co op, right?

500

:

These are members.

501

:

Springer, do they, do you feel like

they've got, do they feel more ownership

502

:

over the way REI shows up in the world?

503

:

You know, because they're members

or do you feel any pressure

504

:

to live up to that ownership?

505

:

Springer: Yeah.

506

:

I, I mean, I, again, I

don't think it's pressure.

507

:

I think it's something that's just

sitting right in front of us that

508

:

we have to, it's like opt outside.

509

:

, so it'll take, it'll take some time

for us to figure out and hopefully

510

:

by doing this more and having.

511

:

That call to action and that

actual nod that everything you're

512

:

seeing in our work is members.

513

:

And hopefully the co op, as a whole,

we'll be like, yes, we have influenced

514

:

our marketing and our advertising

515

:

Brian: in terms of, managing an in

house team, uh, can you talk a little

516

:

bit about finding creative today?

517

:

You know, it's kind of a wild job market

and, I'm sure it's a little overwhelming

518

:

trying to find the right person just

because there's so many people probably

519

:

reaching out when you guys put on a job.

520

:

Like, what is that like today?

521

:

Springer: again, it's

a double edged sword.

522

:

Um, it's, it's amazing that there's

so many great creative talent, but

523

:

it's also, Kind of heartbreaking and

depressing that there's so many great,

524

:

amazing, creative talent that just

aren't, able to find a spot, a home.

525

:

I just put up like a freelance writer

position and we had hundreds, if not,

526

:

you know, thousands of applicants

within the first three or four days.

527

:

And we just had to shut it down.

528

:

Cause I'm like, there's no way that

we don't have a solid candidate

529

:

and the amount of responses

that we already have received.

530

:

There's just, it's impossible.

531

:

John: How much of that do you

attribute to the fact that people

532

:

aspire to work at a brand like REI?

533

:

Is that a, is that a big deal or?

534

:

Springer: yeah, I mean,

that, that probably 100%

535

:

has, has a, a factor into it.

536

:

Again, it's, it's what, it's what took

me out of agencies, um, what alert, it's

537

:

all, Lord, a lot of great talent that's,

you know, precedes me being there as well.

538

:

I mean, you find a brand that

you can personally resonate

539

:

with and you believe in.

540

:

Um, actually does stand

for what they talk about.

541

:

,

Brian: What advice do you give to young creatives kind of

542

:

looking for an opportunity?

543

:

Springer: Yeah.

544

:

I've been thinking about this a lot.

545

:

Um, and I think it's

truly just be yourself.

546

:

I mean, don't try to be something that you

think you need to be for a company, or you

547

:

think you need to be for this particular

interview or this person or this role

548

:

if you fit, it's, it's going to happen.

549

:

Um, when I was interviewing for REI, they

asked me, you know, how outdoorsy I am.

550

:

I'm like, I have a kayak and you

know, I probably go once or twice.

551

:

You know, to the lake.

552

:

Beyond that, I'm like, I like to sit on

the couch and watch TV and work on cars

553

:

and my truck and play with motorcycles.

554

:

Like, I'm like, I'll mow the lawn,

you know, but it's like, I do believe

555

:

that, there's different ways of being

outside and, you know, living that

556

:

and feeling that, You know, we have

certain people on our team that run

557

:

marathons and whatever, like, and they,

they run ultra marathons and it blows

558

:

my mind when they talk about that.

559

:

, so it's just be who you are, be your

authentic self and do great work.

560

:

John: So this idea of authenticity has

come up a couple of times with you, you

561

:

know, in terms of the REI brand, in terms

of the advice you give to young creatives.

562

:

How often do you bump into stuff

that's, you know, percolating internally

563

:

that sometimes someone's got to say,

hang on, this isn't quite authentic

564

:

to who we are, what we stand for.

565

:

Do you bump into that once in a

while, or is it so ingrained that

566

:

those, those ideas don't pop up?

567

:

Springer: Now all the time.

568

:

John: All the time.

569

:

Springer: I think for the most

part, it's, and it happens like

570

:

when we're brainstorming, right?

571

:

And, uh, you know, we go down the rabbit

hole of, hey, that, that sounds funny.

572

:

And then it's like, oh, wait, you

know, like, someone will check us our

573

:

marketing team, our diversity team,

um, you know, a number of different

574

:

points throughout the process.

575

:

It's like, yo, this just

doesn't, you know, This doesn't

576

:

feel like I'm like, Oh, yeah.

577

:

Okay.

578

:

You're right.

579

:

John: So even though you've got that

really strong, really powerful North

580

:

star that's pulling everything in the

right direction, you still have stuff

581

:

that strays and you gotta it Correct.

582

:

Springer: Absolutely.

583

:

Uh, I mean, some you're, you're human.

584

:

as much as you can preach,

say, Oh, yeah, I'm authentic.

585

:

And actually, like, when you said

that, I wasn't even thinking that

586

:

I was like, man, this is great.

587

:

Great therapy session.

588

:

Um, just picking up on it.

589

:

People make mistakes and as long

as you learn and you can pivot and

590

:

you know, you're adaptable, great.

591

:

Like, that's fine.

592

:

Um, I will.

593

:

John: You hear that Brian?

594

:

People make mistakes.

595

:

Brian: I don't know.

596

:

I don't know.

597

:

I don't know.

598

:

Absolutely.

599

:

John: duo that kind of reminds Brian all

the time that, uh, people make mistakes.

600

:

That would be when I make mistakes.

601

:

Springer: Well shit happens, you know,

you can't control it, it's just how

602

:

you deal with it at the end of the day.

603

:

Brian: Absolutely.

604

:

Can you talk about how you, um,

work with your peers inside REI?

605

:

Is, uh, are you working with an

inside media team as well as,

606

:

you know, the marketing team?

607

:

Like how, how do you guys kind

of work internally to, you

608

:

know, bring everything together?

609

:

Springer: Yep, we have media, managers,

um, they work with a, a media, a company,

610

:

and yeah, we work, um, pretty closely

with them to try to figure out what

611

:

campaigns are designed to do what,

what channels will have the best reach.

612

:

and then they go and work their

magic to figure out the money and

613

:

how that all that works and how

that can potentially come to life.

614

:

And yeah, we, it's that nice compromise

and that nice balance of how, and

615

:

where the concept can come to life all

616

:

Brian: Yeah.

617

:

I'm sure there's a little like chicken or

the egg on the, You might have a different

618

:

kind of cut or format or, you know,

619

:

Springer: I mean, do you fully have

everything baked from the media plan

620

:

of this is what we need and you go and

execute or do you leave some space and

621

:

some room for the concept to be able

to, you know, help facilitate or dictate

622

:

what some of the placements might be?

623

:

Again, yeah, chicken and egg.

624

:

John: Do you get pretty good, uh, data

on, you know, either from the media

625

:

team, in terms of performance and

stuff, but what about in terms of like

626

:

brand metrics, you know, you mentioned

this is a, this is a new brand platform,

627

:

how do you know whether this is

resonating other than randoms reach

628

:

out to you on LinkedIn and say,

well, you'd be on our podcast.

629

:

How do you know that it's working?

630

:

Springer: I mean, I don't know

what a better metric than that is.

631

:

John: All right.

632

:

So you can success.

633

:

Springer: I, uh, yeah, no, we definitely

have a team that is, is monitoring our,

634

:

our brand tracker or our brand score.

635

:

Um, and we, we look at

that on the quarterly, um,

636

:

John: And obviously it goes

beyond awareness into like specific

637

:

like personality attributes

you're measuring against.

638

:

Is that right?

639

:

Springer: yep.

640

:

I'm looking at awareness

down into consideration down

641

:

into sentiment, all sorts of.

642

:

Data inside of an amazing PowerPoint, but

they just for us feeble minded creatives.

643

:

And there, we do pivot all the time, like

some of our creative of, you know, this

644

:

one's performing stronger than others.

645

:

John: And I know you've only, only

been there two years, so you know,

646

:

you don't have the longest track

record, but do you see, have you seen a

647

:

correlation between when brand metrics

are kind of bumping and increasing?

648

:

Does that correlate to sales increases

or kind of hard to know just yet?

649

:

Springer: haven't seen that quite yet.

650

:

Um, it's, it's something that we're,

we're trying to get better at.

651

:

What I would say, um, again, just

to also demonstrate the power and

652

:

the value of brand versus power

and value of new shoe, new tent.

653

:

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a little

bit of, of, of both right now.

654

:

Cause I think we need

to educate internally.

655

:

Um, and we also need to figure out how and

why we're doing more and more brand stuff

656

:

or more and more product focused stuff.

657

:

But, uh, that's something

in our future for sure.

658

:

Brian: I want to talk a little

bit about what you've mentioned a

659

:

couple of times about using film.

660

:

Can you, can you give people a little

bit of an understanding on, you know,

661

:

making the decision to, to use film,

which I think is absolutely fantastic,

662

:

but how does that impact a shoot?

663

:

What changes have to be made

based off of making that decision?

664

:

And, um, and what, what is

that like for everybody?

665

:

Springer: It's scary.

666

:

There's a reason why we, you know,

the industry kind of went away from

667

:

film and this isn't the whole reason.

668

:

Like I would say, like,

there's just an ease factor.

669

:

It's just, you don't have to carry

around canisters and canisters of film.

670

:

The cameras are much smaller and

easier to You know, find and utilize,

671

:

um, you know, digital cameras are,

um, you can mimic certain film

672

:

attributes sometimes, sometimes.

673

:

, and digital is cheaper.

674

:

, and so like, why wouldn't

you just use digital?

675

:

Um, How did I sell and how did we

sell in film of it's just gorgeous.

676

:

It has a raw, a raw feeling.

677

:

The grain, the texture.

678

:

Um, there's just something that feels

kind of memory esque, um, a bit more

679

:

aspirational in my mind, not as polished.

680

:

It feels again, a bit more authentic.

681

:

Um, even though our commercial was

very, very scripted and very produced,

682

:

it's just felt real, something

that you could relate to again.

683

:

Maybe it's a bit dreamy.

684

:

It creates an atmosphere of depth.

685

:

Uh, I don't know.

686

:

There's just, I, I

could just go on and on.

687

:

And I think the result of what we

got, hopefully kind of speaks for it.

688

:

I mean, we're still shooting in

digital but we're starting to shoot

689

:

more and more film photography as well.

690

:

It is scary because you have to

trust at the end of the day as well

691

:

that what you just shot for two

hours, you actually have on film.

692

:

Brian: So scary just to hear you say that.

693

:

Yeah.

694

:

Springer: That, you know, fix

it in post isn't as easy, uh,

695

:

on film as it is in digital.

696

:

Like you, you have to go with it.

697

:

You have to cut around stuff and,

you know, you have to work with it.

698

:

And I think that's also kind of fun.

699

:

Um, it kind of adds to the

rawness, the realness of.

700

:

Shit, if only she'd, ah

man, how do we make it work?

701

:

Um, yeah, I don't know.

702

:

I think I, I will always push for film.

703

:

Um, and again, huge shout out to

the directors, Damian Blue and

704

:

our GP, Quinn Feldman, um, cause

they were just, monstrous on set.

705

:

Um, the cameras that they brought,

we went underwater with my camera.

706

:

And so we had a complete like a

hydro housing look like an atom bomb.

707

:

It was dropping it into the water

and its own little submarine tank.

708

:

And then we put a film

camera inside of a dryer.

709

:

And we spun the dryer around, like,

We were like actively googling

710

:

on the side the melting point of

film, To like, no, like, we were

711

:

Brian: What is it, by the way?

712

:

Springer: We were safe, but

713

:

John: know, you know, there's a,

there's an air cycle, you don't need

714

:

to turn the heat on those things.

715

:

Springer: No, we were like in some public

laundromat and it was, there was no air.

716

:

It was just like low, medium and high.

717

:

They built this amazing rig and actually

ran the dryer and ran it for a few times.

718

:

And again, it's one of those moments where

you're like, you're hoping you get it.

719

:

They have some monitors and some

feeds, but it's like a digital feed.

720

:

And so you're like, I hope.

721

:

What we're getting is,

is just as beautiful.

722

:

It's stressful, but I think the

end result, when you see it for

723

:

the first time, you're just like,

so happy that that was why, you

724

:

know, the decision you've made.

725

:

John: It's really cool to hear you

talk so lovingly about, about film, you

726

:

know, and now's a good time for us to

cut away to, uh, our sponsor promotion,

727

:

uh, Kodak has sponsored this episode.

728

:

So, uh, no, it really is cause you

know, the, your focus on the craft.

729

:

You know, it is something that I think

a lot of times I associate with what you

730

:

get at spending a lot of money going to,

you know, a big well staffed ad agency,

731

:

the fact that you're doing it in house,

the fact that you were able to sell in

732

:

the extra time and budget to get the craft

where it needs to be to reflect the brand.

733

:

It is, it is really neat to hear

and, and your enthusiasm for it

734

:

is really, uh, it's palpable.

735

:

So thanks for sharing that.

736

:

Springer: No, absolutely.

737

:

I mean, again, REI took,

you know, a chance, a risk.

738

:

I don't know, maybe they didn't

or, you know, hiring an agency guy.

739

:

Um, I think they did that for a reason.

740

:

Um, so for them to, to listen and

believe and trust, um, that we're going

741

:

to get an amazing product is, is great.

742

:

It's a good feeling.

743

:

John: Speaking of that, , do you

get the sense that there are more

744

:

creatives looking to move from agency

side to in house like you've done?

745

:

Springer: Absolutely.

746

:

John: There's more of that now.

747

:

Springer: Yeah, I, I, the,

the agency model is, is hard.

748

:

I mean, it's, it's exhausting and I

think that's one of the big things.

749

:

COVID, COVID was a great wake

up, um, because we don't have to

750

:

go into the office and actually

stay in the office all day.

751

:

We can work from home and that gave

us a, a bit more yearning to not

752

:

want to have to work from home.

753

:

So damn much.

754

:

And I can't speak for the entire industry.

755

:

And I, there's still people

that love the hustle.

756

:

I ultimately, sometimes I

still yearn for that myself.

757

:

Um, but not on a daily

basis, not on a weekly basis.

758

:

Um, rarely a monthly basis, but I, I

think that that shift, and if you're

759

:

able to find a place that has already

a solid in house team, yeah, why not?

760

:

Like hustle, make it, you know, you can,

you can still hop around if you need to.

761

:

You can still work on

different brands, right?

762

:

So I, I, I see that that trend just going

to continue, if not exponentially more.

763

:

That's my POE.

764

:

That's, sorry.

765

:

Brian: for me.

766

:

what, what sort of ways did you take your,

your larger commercial and kind of break

767

:

it down into other pieces of content?

768

:

Like, how have you been able

to use that That commercial to

769

:

distribute that in other ways,

770

:

Springer: a good question.

771

:

Um, I mean, we, we do a lot of

social short, we shot a lot and

772

:

that one spot was part of, I think,

six other spots that we shot.

773

:

Um, different times, time durations.

774

:

I mean, from that 30, I think we

got a 15, a 10, a six, and we've

775

:

got some still assets from it.

776

:

Um, the overall branding as well.

777

:

Everything that we used in there

was used across our entire system.

778

:

And I think just the again, the locations

that we shot at, we also for film,

779

:

um, the video we also shot and stills.

780

:

Um, so just looking at efficiencies across

the board for the production itself,

781

:

John: You got a lot of great

stuff from that campaign.

782

:

What's next before we let you go?

783

:

What's next for REI?

784

:

What are we going to

see from you guys next?

785

:

Springer: just the next

chapter of that opt outside.

786

:

I mean, that was our launch of just

reintroducing it back into the world of

787

:

saying, Hey, um, you can make a cognizant

choice to break some of this autopilot.

788

:

And we're just going to take it and

continue to expand upon that narrative.

789

:

John: We look forward to seeing it unfold

and, uh, and seeing your career progress.

790

:

We really appreciate you joining us.

791

:

It's been a great talking to you.

792

:

Springer: Thank you, Brian.

793

:

Thank you, John.

794

:

Brian: Can't wait to see what's next.

795

:

John: Yeah.

796

:

Yeah.

797

:

Keep us outside.

798

:

Springer: Absolutely.

799

:

Brian: John, that was a great interview.

800

:

It's always nice talking to, um, the

people that are really connected into, um,

801

:

into the, into the brands they worked for.

802

:

And, Springer, um, you know,

he's just really inspired by that

803

:

brand and he's doing great things.

804

:

John: Yeah.

805

:

So, so mellow, so chill.

806

:

It's interesting how he seems to

kind of almost to me reflect a

807

:

little bit of that brand, right?

808

:

, He's all about simplicity

and clarity and authenticity.

809

:

And I think, you know, that's one

of the things that really stands

810

:

out to that, to me about that brand

is, you know, just really authentic.

811

:

No matter what you see, it just is

really about enjoying the outside.

812

:

Hmm.

813

:

Great

814

:

Brian: You know, a lot of times

when you, you hear about creating

815

:

efficiency by bringing a lot of

these, um, creative people in house.

816

:

, it usually means that they're gonna, you

know, just be not take as many chances.

817

:

And, uh, And they're

really swinging for it.

818

:

I love that they're using film.

819

:

I love that they're, um, really

digging into this, opt outside

820

:

identity and really weaving it into

the stories that they're telling.

821

:

And, um, so I, it's a, it's a great story.

822

:

John: Yeah, it really is a great point

about that, about that team not taking

823

:

the easy path, but you know, getting

outside their lane and getting outside,

824

:

Brian: Yeah.

825

:

Inspiring to see that, you know, you

can still, achieve what creative

826

:

people want to do at an agency,

you know, with, uh, with a brand.

827

:

So, um, that's a good story

for a lot of people to hear.

828

:

John: you know, probably easier for them

because hearing him talk, it does seem

829

:

like they have all bought in, right?

830

:

They truly do enjoy what

the brand stands for,.

831

:

Yeah.

832

:

Brian: Absolutely.

833

:

John: All right.

834

:

Well, speaking about caring, uh,

Brian, I care very much that we

835

:

got this podcast done and that

we've got another one lined up.

836

:

Brian: I'm glad we still

remember how to do it.

837

:

Well, you know, for our listeners,

stay tuned for another great episode

838

:

coming up in the next couple of weeks.

839

:

As always, if you enjoy the episode,

make sure to share it on social.

840

:

You know, tell your friends

841

:

John: Tell your friends.

842

:

Hell, tell your enemies.

843

:

We don't care.

844

:

Tell anybody.

845

:

Brian: Matthew McConaughey.

846

:

John: Tell Matthew McConaughey.

847

:

All right, man.

848

:

See you later.

849

:

Brian: All right.

850

:

See ya.

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