Proving brands don’t need to spend big on ad agencies, REI’s in-house creative team is delivering high-impact marketing campaigns while showcasing the brand’s true purpose. Internal creative director Jonathan Springer joins us to share how the REI team recently launched its Opt Outside campaign. Anchored by a smart, beautiful commercial – shot on actual film AND featuring music by our hometown Philly band, Dr. Dog – Opt Outside creates a brand platform across media channels for REI. Hear Springer talk about the craft of communications, working on a brand with purpose, and the differences between in-house teams and ad agencies. (And no, the birds chirping in the background aren’t sound effects; Springer was simply letting the great outdoors join our session.)

Key topics & chapter markers 

(00:52): Snap Decisions Lightning Round: Which brand does it better?

(03:46): Introducing Jonathan Springer, REI creative director

(06:02): REI’s Opt Outside campaign

(08:39): Dr. Dog asks: Where does all the time go?

(10:01): How the campaign reflects the brand purpose

(14:18): Managing an in-house creative team/ Internal vs. agency resources

(24:26): Finding and guiding creative talent

(29:40): Measuring brand performance

(31:29): Shooting on film!

Background content

REI Co-op Opt Outside - YouTube

Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmarks13/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-l-young/

Hey, hey, hey, welcome back, Brian.

2

Brian: Hey, John, how was your summer?

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John: Uh, lightning fast.

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I don't remember a thing about it.

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How about you?

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Brian: Yeah, same.

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John: What have we been doing?

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Brian: I don't know.

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I don't know.

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Is it 2028 or something?

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John: know what we haven't been doing?

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Brian: what's that?

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John: Recording a podcast.

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So let's get to it.

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Hey,

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Brian: Let's get in it.

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John: all right.

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So we have an interesting

guest today from REI.

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Who's going to talk about a campaign that

was created by an internal creative group.

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Uh, and it got me thinking, Brian,

about, um, I guess we always think

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about how brands show up in the world.

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You're ready to go.

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All

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Fire away.

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John: I've got a Snap Decisions

lightning round for you.

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Are you ready for that?

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Brian: Yes.

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Bring it.

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Yeah.

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John: So thinking about how brands show

up in general through their marketing, I'm

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not talking necessarily about advertising.

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That's one way, but could be packaging

could be, you know, emails you

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get from this brand or whatever.

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I'm going to give you some brands.

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I want you to tell me which

of them do a better job of

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consistently making you understand.

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what they stand for.

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You with me?

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And maybe a little bit of why.

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So here we go.

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Brian: All right.

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I'll do my best.

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John: Coming in strong

with Apple or Microsoft.

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Brian: Apple, I mean, come on.

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I mean, Microsoft shows up better in the

world than they used to, but I mean, it's

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not, it's not even really a competition.

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I still, there's so many things

that Microsoft does that I just

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don't understand, I don't think.

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And, uh, I just think Apple makes

it really simple to know what they,

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what they do and how it impacts you.

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John: Agree.

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All right.

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How about let's go to a different

category, our favorite insurance,

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progressive or Allstate.

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Brian: Um, I'm going

to go, uh, progressive.

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John: Okay.

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Brian: I just, yeah, I, I feel like

they, uh, they stand out a little

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better and, um, it connects more.

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John: Well, they're relentlessly

consistent with Flo and that other guy.

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I can't stand it, but okay.

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, All right, Brian, this

is right up your alley.

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Technology.

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Brian: Yeah.

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John: Workday or Salesforce.

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Brian: I'm going to say

Salesforce mostly because you

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can't stand Matthew McConaughey.

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John: I forgot about him

doing that, but yeah.

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Okay.

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How about switching categories

to, travel and hospitality.

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Airbnb or Marriott?

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Brian: Airbnb.

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I think they're hitting

it out of the park.

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John: Yeah.

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Yeah, that's a really

nice type brand, isn't it?

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah,

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John: Um, okay.

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Um, a band, a, uh, here's a

category that spends a ton of money.

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Uh, I don't know if they do a good job

of making anyone care, but they do spend

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money on marketing in every channel.

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Verizon Wireless or T Mobile?

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Brian: yeah, I'm gonna go Verizon.

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T Mobile's just annoying.

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John: Yeah.

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Okay.

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Um, and then we're going to go to, um, a

more fun category to close it out here.

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Lite, the classic, or Mike's

Hard Lemonade, the startup.

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Brian: Yeah, I'm a sucker

for the classic Miller Lite.

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To me, uh, they're kinda

undefeated right now, so.

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John: They still go back to that

tastes great, less filling, don't they?

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Brian: Hey man, tried and true.

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If it works, it works,

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John: Can't miss it.

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Brian: Yeah, I think they'll

always come back to that.

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, John: Let's move on and introduce

our guest, who has a lot to say

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about creating consumer perceptions

about what a brand means.

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He started his career working for an ad

agency as a designer and his growth over

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the years as an art director took him from

agencies in Kansas city to New York city.

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Where he grew a skill set that

covers pretty much every marketing

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channel from print to digital to TV.

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And he's done work that positions and

promotes stuff from bread to phone

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service to video games to insurance

and a lot of stuff in between.

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, Jonathan Springer has supported

agency clients who are large and

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small, including brands like Southwest

Airlines, Whole Foods, the U.

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S.

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Army, AT& T, eBay, just to name a few.

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And then he moved to REI where he is

a creative director for an in house

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team building ads and promotions and

digital units and everything you can

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think of he caught our attention a

couple months ago in early June with a

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LinkedIn post where he shared the launch

of a new opt outside campaign, which

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is a line that's now populating pretty

much everything that comes out of REI.

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Uh, he's also just back from a

bucket list trip where he spent two

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weeks in Paris for the Olympics.

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Please welcome Jonathan Springer.

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Springer: Wow.

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I'm blushing.

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Thank you.

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John: Yeah.

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Springer: Not going to be here.

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John: Yeah.

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Thanks.

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Thanks so much for joining us.

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Um, love to start the

conversation with that campaign.

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I, that really caught our eye.

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My brief description is it's, it

opens on a young woman who's kind of

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going through the daily grind of life.

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and it resolves to her

escape to the outdoors.

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And, you know, we liked

everything about it.

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Uh, there's a terrific, music track

behind it from a local band that Brian

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and I have liked for a while, Dr.

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Dog, and reveals a tagline of don't

let life distract you from living.

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Jonathan, can you kind of, Talk us

through that video in particular.

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You don't necessarily have to do it

the way you pitched it internally,

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but explain to someone who hasn't

seen that, that campaign video,

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explain it to us and, uh, and any other

campaign extensions you want to talk.

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Springer: Yeah, absolutely.

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Uh, and first I would say,

feel free to call me Springer.

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The opt outside campaign, it's something

that we've been talking, I've been,

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I've been at REI for about two years

now, and one of the big things that

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I pitched when I was interviewing

was just how much I really loved the

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original opt outside platform when

it came out, about 10 years ago.

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and I just loved how it was a.

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A brand that stood for

something and took an action.

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and it was very simple, but yet

powerful in the marketplace.

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And so that was just a brand

that resonated with me.

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And I think throughout all of my agency

times, it's a brand that's resonated.

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And so when we started thinking about

how we want to reposition and what's our

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new brand platform for REA coming out?

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You know, we, we had done a few iterations

and I think we always just came back

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to, why isn't it just opt outside?

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Why can't we just own that?

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there's something really powerful.

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I think that's what everybody, you

know, quote unquote, everybody kind of

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knew us for and still does know us for.

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So how can we own that equity

that's already built in that?

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Um, and you know, actually live

that almost every single day.

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And that kind of, you know, circulated

for about a year and a half.

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And then we finally decided,

yeah, let's, let's do it.

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Um, this makes a lot of sense.

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I think the time is right.

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There's, you know, obviously some,

some headwinds and tailwinds that

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we're facing in culture that actually

allow that as well to happen.

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And so we, Went forward with it.

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And I think the team, you

know, did an amazing job.

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Huge shout out to, to Sam and

Matt, art director, copy and Angie.

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I'm bad ass designer.

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Um, who just really came up with the

entire system and, you know, Ryan

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Moline, I have to mention him as well.

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Um, who just really

brought it all together.

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It's just a great idea.

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It's a great line.

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It's very simple.

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And I think what the team did and

the strategy team really helped us do

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is identify some, you know, cultural

tension right now about how People

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just feel that time isn't theirs.

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They feel like, you know, there's a

lot of autopilot going on right now.

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we're all kind of doing the same thing

every single day, , it's always a

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bunch of cycles and it just kind of

seems like we're in the same patterns.

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So how do we break out of that?

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And how does the outdoors really

play into something like that?

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I think the team came up with exactly

what you described in the beginning.

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You know, someone's story of just going

through those motions day in and day out.

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and then finally choosing opting, right?

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And that's what we really focused on

here was the opt of that line of opt

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outside and having someone make a

conscious decision to break free, say

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enough is enough and take back some of

what they can, take back some control

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and literally just go have fun outside.

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so that was kind of the crux of it.

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you mentioned the Dr.

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Dog track.

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Um, it was actually one of like,

it's a main character in this

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John: yeah, it really is.

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Springer: Uh, we have no VO, in the spot.

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, there's no , speaking

roles from our talent.

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Um, you know, there's some, some

ambient laughter and stuff like that.

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But the, the team again

just came with this track.

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I, I had never heard of it before.

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Sorry, apologies.

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I'd never heard of, uh, Dr.

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Dog.

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Um, but when I heard this track,

I was like, that's pretty amazing.

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It's pretty perfect.

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John: Yeah.

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You couldn't have composed

something as I do, right?

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Like where does the time

go is literally the lyric.

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It's like tease up your

campaign so nicely.

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, Springer: and it just has a

great beat, a great melody.

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it's got a lot of energy, lots

of ups and downs, a lot of drama

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with it, exactly what we're

portraying, um, when we're shooting.

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,

Brian: feels like life.

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Springer: it just feels,

it felt, it felt great.

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so when we were combining that with

the amazing footage, getting us

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all of this film, all of this was

shot on film, by the way, which was

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John: Is anybody shooting on film anymore?

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That seems so rare.

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Springer: was, that was a challenge.

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I think like getting the team to say,

Hey, yes, you can go and, spend money on

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a singular track and you can spend money

on an entire film shoot was a big push, I

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think internally, but the result is just.

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we love it.

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and you know, Kodak loves it.

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Kodak reposted it.

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, Yeah, I think overall, I think just the

message was very simple of, you know,

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don't let life distract you from living.

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Choose to live life outside.

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John: Yeah, seems, seems like a perfect

match to the marketing strategy.

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And you mentioned the, the whole idea of

opt out side, or opt out, as a campaign,

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, so just for, for our listeners, if you

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really created news when You did something

that seemed really anti retail by closing

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all of your stores on Black Friday and

encouraged employees and customers to

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skip shopping and connect with nature.

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So That move and the kind of the

underlying brand idea there shows, I would

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argue, an understanding of customers and

an empathy for customers that most brands

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don't have the guts to, to represent.

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how does that brand idea

permeate the culture at REI?

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Like, is that really true to, you

know, the internal culture and, you

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know, And do you feel a responsibility

to steward that broader positioning

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when you create market imagery?

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Obviously you just did, but you

know, have you always felt that?

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Springer: Yeah, I mean, personally,

that was one of the reasons why I

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wanted to work for REI and make the

shift from agency to going in house

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and I think I got really lucky by my,

my first experience being in house

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at REI because they actually believe

that, that work life balance going from

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working, you know, 70, 80 hour weeks

in agency land to, you know, Working

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40 hours and going to fuck off outside.

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Like, it's amazing.

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It's like, what more could you ask for?

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and I, and I do believe we value

that we have things like way days.

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it's like, go out and be in nature.

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go help your community, do your part,

um, on your time, your, you know,

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specific way of getting outside.

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we still, um, close our

doors every day for the past.

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You know, 10 years on Black Friday.

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It's a permanent thing now.

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Like we don't have to make

it some big announcement.

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It's just who we are.

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It's part of our DNA.

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Um,

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John: other outdoor companies

have joined you, right?

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Like other companies also closed

on Black Friday now, sort of a part

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of a broader movement you created.

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Yeah.

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Springer: It's still amazing to see

like the headlines of other brands

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and companies, like when they close

on Black Friday, it's, it's still big

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news and it's great to think, yeah, the

company I work for, they started that.

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We started that.

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,

Brian: I love is like, you have this thing that, Was so successful

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that everything that you do is

going to be measured against that.

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And, and you guys decided like, this is

who we are, like, why are we, why are

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we trying to spin in other directions

that will ultimately just be measured

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against like, this is who we are.

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So let's just be it.

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And it's kind of like, I'm sure

liberating to be like, let's just

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really continue to dive into this.

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And, and it, cause it is who we are

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Springer: absolutely.

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, It feels real.

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And I think when you, when, as a

brand, when you're lucky enough

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to find something that feels that

real, I mean, it's just great work.

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It's just going to permeate from that.

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there's no more burden of having

to compete with that because

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you, you're just living that.

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sure.

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You still have the pressure of

like, they closed on Black Friday.

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Amazing idea.

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Brian: somewhere.

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Yeah.

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Springer: and so, yeah, there will always

be that, um, but just the fact that we

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know that amazing idea started something

that will continue to be amazing.

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And what we, we as a brand can own

for quite a long time, if not forever.

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Brian: And I think that that was really

a peak in the craziness of black Friday.

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And I feel like it kind of brought

everybody back to normalcy a little

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bit, because brands aren't afraid to

like, Not go to just ridiculous lengths

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on, you know, the lines and waiting

and getting in on, on black Friday.

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And, and now.

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now it's okay to just like,

let's just let people, you know,

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live their life a little bit.

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So,

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Springer: That's, you know, the

balance that we as a retailer

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have to live with as well.

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Like right after Black Friday,

you know, there's still holiday.

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There's still sales going on and

we, you know, we're, are still

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ultimately, you know, But we'd

choose on one of the busiest,

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days of retail to say, it's crazy.

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Like there's a better way to

spend your time than in line

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for an awesome pair of shoes.

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I mean, unless they're really awesome.

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Right.

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Um,

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John: talking about those shoes.

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so, Jonathan, it seems to us like a lot

of, um, what consumers get exposed to,

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especially on holiday season, is some

big, slick, glossy productions, a lot

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of times built by, you know, traditional

ad agencies and big brands, but we

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know that a lot of brands are starting

to create these in house, creative,

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uh, Either agencies or creative teams

or, production teams or whatever.

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Can you talk about RAI's

in house agency setup?

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Are you guys, is it just a creative team?

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Do you still use outside agencies?

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Springer: Yeah, for sure.

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I wouldn't say that we consider

ourselves an agency, but we are

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about the size of a small agency.

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We have, you know, everyone from

designers, copywriters, art directors,

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associate creative directors, CDs.

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we're headed, you know, led by

what's like in a traditional agency

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would be an ECD on the role as well.

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so I mean, We're staffed pretty

traditionally, like an agency.

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. I think the big difference is, is

we work extremely closely with the

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day to day clients, quote unquote,

that you would have at an agency.

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we're in this

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John: So, as in, like, folks

in the marketing team and,

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Springer: Yeah, folks definitely on

the marketing team, um, integration.

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We work with our merch partners.

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People are buying the

stuff that we're selling.

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Um, we work with, our membership team,

because again, remember REI is a co op.

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we're member based.

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John: proud member right here.

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Springer: That's right.

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Thank you.

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and yeah, so, I mean, there's a lot

of factors that go into it and that's

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one of the, the big differences.

343

,

John: And do you use outside agencies at all?

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Springer: Yeah, we have, we have some,

you know, help with specific channels.

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especially when we do productions as well.

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We, we definitely use outside,

agencies and vendors that,

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John: You've worked both sides, right?

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You've worked for an agency and

now you're working as kind of

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like an internal creative guy.

350

What are the, what are the pros

and the cons of those two things?

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What's easier?

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What's harder?

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Springer: nothing is easy.

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It's work.

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I bounced around to a lot.

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think I was in maybe eight

agencies before I made the move.

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And.

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What's great about agency life

is I think first and foremost,

359

it's, it's creative first.

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All the clients come to agencies

because they're like, we don't

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have this type of creativity or

this way of thinking internal.

362

and we need, we need help with that.

363

We need help to be able to tell our story.

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We need help to be able to get

what's on this piece of paper that

365

we have an awesome strategy for,

but just out to the masses so that

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they care about us as a brand.

367

It's a different way of thinking.

368

and I think when they hire an

agency, they realize that that's

369

what they're hiring, and agencies, I

feel tend to cater to that as well.

370

the culture is a little bit different.

371

and again, we're all working towards

delivering an amazing creative product.

372

The variety at agencies

is also really amazing.

373

You get to work on a lot of different

clients, really fast, really quick.

374

sometimes that's also

a double edged sword.

375

because you're working on a lot of

clients you may not actually care about.

376

, Brian: in terms of like learning curve

was, was it just for you, was it kind of

377

navigating the, the environment of just

having to sell in different things in a

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different way and having to work closely

with people that were maybe not as close

379

to creative as you've always worked with?

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Springer: In house is, is

different, um, considerably.

381

And I, and why I mentioned agencies

are, I believe are creative first and

382

foremost is I, you know, and this isn't

a knock, um, on in house, like just in

383

house isn't first and foremost about.

384

It's about the bottom line of how we're

beating these goals and these KPIs and

385

these objectives and creative is a part

of that, but it's not the only thing.

386

Oh my gosh.

387

Like terrible beat down

my ego right there.

388

When I have to say that, like

creative isn't the only thing.

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Brian: Headline from this.

390

Springer: Ooh, I mean, ooh,

hyperventilating, but no, like, um,

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John: We're here for you Springer.

392

Springer: um, no, it's like, you're,

you're part of something much larger.

393

Right.

394

And you're all working towards this goal.

395

Um, and again, creative is a part of that.

396

Create, it's not the only solve.

397

And I think that's, um, something that I'm

still learning and I'm still adjusting to,

398

Brian: yeah.

399

And, you know, forever, you know,

like you said, people bring in

400

agencies because they don't want them

to have to think about that stuff.

401

They want to think about the

creative and can they think about

402

that without the other noise?

403

And that's kind of how it's always been.

404

But, um, I'm sure that.

405

You know, you're able to provide a nice

cover for people that work for you and,

406

and let them focus on, you know, being

creative first as much as possible and,

407

Springer: yeah, that's, that's the goal.

408

Um, I mean, but again, we're, we're

All we all as creators have chosen to

409

be inside this brand and go in house.

410

John: So, uh, switching attention a

little bit to outside the organization.

411

Are there brands out there that are

creating campaigns with in house

412

talent like your team that you admire?

413

Anything you've noticed that

you know was created in house

414

that you think is just great?

415

Springer: Yeah, I would say Uber is

doing a really great job right now.

416

I used to work with, the head of, you

know, that, that creative team, at an

417

agency land, an ex, a lot of agency

people have gone in house to that team

418

and she's just built an amazing team.

419

And I think some of the work that they

did, you know, particularly around,

420

you know, some of the Olympics and how

they get their name out there almost.

421

in different ways.

422

Some of the celebrities

that they bring on.

423

I think that's a great brand.

424

I even thought, you know,

before,, Burger King was doing

425

great stuff, I think, in house.

426

They did use a lot of agencies,

um, but I think their, their

427

CMO was a big part of that.

428

Those are the kind of couple

that come to mind quickly.

429

John: Yeah, I'm amazed at some of the

stuff I see coming out of Google in

430

particular with in house creative.

431

And sometimes it's hard to know because,

you know, you're using a combination

432

of inside and outside resources.

433

Some campaigns are in

house, some are agency.

434

It's hard to know, but,

435

how about other trends

in marketing right now?

436

you know, obviously, AI tools is

becoming an everyday conversation.

437

Brian and I have talked to other

brands about using influencers.

438

Any of these trends that kind

of like top of mind for you and

439

what are you thinking about them?

440

Springer: Yeah, I mean, AI is something

we've, we've talked about a lot.

441

I think ad nauseum internally.

442

and it's, it's one thing that, you

know, we, we represent something very

443

natural and it's, it's not artificial.

444

You can literally go right outside

and it's real and you can touch grass.

445

and so how does that, That tool

of AI actually benefit and help

446

us, um, in a way that doesn't feel

fake or forced or, unauthentic

447

John: Does REI have, uh, policies

like clear policies yet on how

448

you will or won't use generative

AI, or is that still emerging?

449

Springer: it, it's still emerging.

450

you know, we're, we're, we're dabbling in

it as creatives and just seeing like what

451

it can do, but still, like, it's not, you

can tell it's, it, it, it doesn't feel.

452

It doesn't feel right for us quite yet.

453

I'm not sure if it ever will.

454

Like, I'm sure people

said that about Photoshop.

455

I'm sure people said that about

Figma and Rain, like other tools.

456

It's, I don't think it's the way or the,

you know, I think it's going to be again,

457

another tool that we, we shouldn't avoid.

458

but it's, we have to figure out how,

how to use it and what's the best way.

459

how do we own stuff on there and

not, not steal, artist creations.

460

I think that's something very real

that we're looking at as well.

461

where I 20 something, you know,

million member co op, like.

462

Can that somehow become our

database of source of information?

463

If people are willing to opt into

something like that, like where is our

464

information source come from and how

do we build from it as opposed to just.

465

trusting blindly that these companies are

doing it respectfully and responsibly.

466

So yeah, it's something that

we think about a lot right now,

467

but there's nothing solidified.

468

We're still shooting on film.

469

John: I was going to say, yeah,

there's a long, it's a long walk

470

from a film to, uh, AI created, uh,

video footage clips of three seconds.

471

Brian: Yeah.

472

And like, Can you talk about how

you guys are using, , or engaging

473

with user generated content?

474

I mean, I can only imagine the

amount of people that are tagging you

475

guys from the stuff they're doing,

being inspired by you guys, and I'm

476

sure you guys get inspired back.

477

Springer: Yeah.

478

I mean, it's something that we're actively

looking at yesterday, today, probably in

479

an hour when I hop off of this, like it's,

Becoming just member, you know, kind of

480

obsessed, um, and just putting members at

our forefront is very topical right now.

481

how we do that, how we do that responsibly

again, you know, is, is, again,

482

Something that we have to investigate.

483

There's campaigns and there's

opportunities for us to 100 percent just

484

give the camera to our members and say

there you go, go have fun and create.

485

we're starting to, you know, go back

through some of our archive of our

486

footage and pull forward footage

that feels very UGC of the members.

487

You know, that's, that's some of that

stuff's already out in the world, and

488

it'll continue to trickle out, in Q4 and

Q1, but yeah, I think it's, it's something

489

that we're, we're looking at right now,

just how to do ethically and responsibly,

490

so we just don't take advantage of this

member group, but also, you know, utilize

491

them as, as talent, as photographers,

As the resource that they actually are.

492

Brian: Your brand is the, how

people use it and, and, and it's the

493

feeling that they, that they have.

494

It's not just what you want it to be.

495

So, um, to be able to

have that as is fantastic.

496

John: Yeah.

497

I think Brian, your, your

question about user generated

498

content is really interesting.

499

Cause like as a co op, right?

500

These are members.

501

Springer, do they, do you feel like

they've got, do they feel more ownership

502

over the way REI shows up in the world?

503

You know, because they're members

or do you feel any pressure

504

to live up to that ownership?

505

Springer: Yeah.

506

I, I mean, I, again, I

don't think it's pressure.

507

I think it's something that's just

sitting right in front of us that

508

we have to, it's like opt outside.

509

, so it'll take, it'll take some time

for us to figure out and hopefully

510

by doing this more and having.

511

That call to action and that

actual nod that everything you're

512

seeing in our work is members.

513

And hopefully the co op, as a whole,

we'll be like, yes, we have influenced

514

our marketing and our advertising

515

Brian: in terms of, managing an in

house team, uh, can you talk a little

516

bit about finding creative today?

517

You know, it's kind of a wild job market

and, I'm sure it's a little overwhelming

518

trying to find the right person just

because there's so many people probably

519

reaching out when you guys put on a job.

520

Like, what is that like today?

521

Springer: again, it's

a double edged sword.

522

Um, it's, it's amazing that there's

so many great creative talent, but

523

it's also, Kind of heartbreaking and

depressing that there's so many great,

524

amazing, creative talent that just

aren't, able to find a spot, a home.

525

I just put up like a freelance writer

position and we had hundreds, if not,

526

you know, thousands of applicants

within the first three or four days.

527

And we just had to shut it down.

528

Cause I'm like, there's no way that

we don't have a solid candidate

529

and the amount of responses

that we already have received.

530

There's just, it's impossible.

531

John: How much of that do you

attribute to the fact that people

532

aspire to work at a brand like REI?

533

Is that a, is that a big deal or?

534

Springer: yeah, I mean,

that, that probably 100%

535

has, has a, a factor into it.

536

Again, it's, it's what, it's what took

me out of agencies, um, what alert, it's

537

all, Lord, a lot of great talent that's,

you know, precedes me being there as well.

538

I mean, you find a brand that

you can personally resonate

539

with and you believe in.

540

Um, actually does stand

for what they talk about.

541

,

Brian: What advice do you give to young creatives kind of

542

looking for an opportunity?

543

Springer: Yeah.

544

I've been thinking about this a lot.

545

Um, and I think it's

truly just be yourself.

546

I mean, don't try to be something that you

think you need to be for a company, or you

547

think you need to be for this particular

interview or this person or this role

548

if you fit, it's, it's going to happen.

549

Um, when I was interviewing for REI, they

asked me, you know, how outdoorsy I am.

550

I'm like, I have a kayak and you

know, I probably go once or twice.

551

You know, to the lake.

552

Beyond that, I'm like, I like to sit on

the couch and watch TV and work on cars

553

and my truck and play with motorcycles.

554

Like, I'm like, I'll mow the lawn,

you know, but it's like, I do believe

555

that, there's different ways of being

outside and, you know, living that

556

and feeling that, You know, we have

certain people on our team that run

557

marathons and whatever, like, and they,

they run ultra marathons and it blows

558

my mind when they talk about that.

559

, so it's just be who you are, be your

authentic self and do great work.

560

John: So this idea of authenticity has

come up a couple of times with you, you

561

know, in terms of the REI brand, in terms

of the advice you give to young creatives.

562

How often do you bump into stuff

that's, you know, percolating internally

563

that sometimes someone's got to say,

hang on, this isn't quite authentic

564

to who we are, what we stand for.

565

Do you bump into that once in a

while, or is it so ingrained that

566

those, those ideas don't pop up?

567

Springer: Now all the time.

568

John: All the time.

569

Springer: I think for the most

part, it's, and it happens like

570

when we're brainstorming, right?

571

And, uh, you know, we go down the rabbit

hole of, hey, that, that sounds funny.

572

And then it's like, oh, wait, you

know, like, someone will check us our

573

marketing team, our diversity team,

um, you know, a number of different

574

points throughout the process.

575

It's like, yo, this just

doesn't, you know, This doesn't

576

feel like I'm like, Oh, yeah.

577

Okay.

578

You're right.

579

John: So even though you've got that

really strong, really powerful North

580

star that's pulling everything in the

right direction, you still have stuff

581

that strays and you gotta it Correct.

582

Springer: Absolutely.

583

Uh, I mean, some you're, you're human.

584

as much as you can preach,

say, Oh, yeah, I'm authentic.

585

And actually, like, when you said

that, I wasn't even thinking that

586

I was like, man, this is great.

587

Great therapy session.

588

Um, just picking up on it.

589

People make mistakes and as long

as you learn and you can pivot and

590

you know, you're adaptable, great.

591

Like, that's fine.

592

Um, I will.

593

John: You hear that Brian?

594

People make mistakes.

595

Brian: I don't know.

596

I don't know.

597

I don't know.

598

Absolutely.

599

John: duo that kind of reminds Brian all

the time that, uh, people make mistakes.

600

That would be when I make mistakes.

601

Springer: Well shit happens, you know,

you can't control it, it's just how

602

you deal with it at the end of the day.

603

Brian: Absolutely.

604

Can you talk about how you, um,

work with your peers inside REI?

605

Is, uh, are you working with an

inside media team as well as,

606

you know, the marketing team?

607

Like how, how do you guys kind

of work internally to, you

608

know, bring everything together?

609

Springer: Yep, we have media, managers,

um, they work with a, a media, a company,

610

and yeah, we work, um, pretty closely

with them to try to figure out what

611

campaigns are designed to do what,

what channels will have the best reach.

612

and then they go and work their

magic to figure out the money and

613

how that all that works and how

that can potentially come to life.

614

And yeah, we, it's that nice compromise

and that nice balance of how, and

615

where the concept can come to life all

616

Brian: Yeah.

617

I'm sure there's a little like chicken or

the egg on the, You might have a different

618

kind of cut or format or, you know,

619

Springer: I mean, do you fully have

everything baked from the media plan

620

of this is what we need and you go and

execute or do you leave some space and

621

some room for the concept to be able

to, you know, help facilitate or dictate

622

what some of the placements might be?

623

Again, yeah, chicken and egg.

624

John: Do you get pretty good, uh, data

on, you know, either from the media

625

team, in terms of performance and

stuff, but what about in terms of like

626

brand metrics, you know, you mentioned

this is a, this is a new brand platform,

627

how do you know whether this is

resonating other than randoms reach

628

out to you on LinkedIn and say,

well, you'd be on our podcast.

629

How do you know that it's working?

630

Springer: I mean, I don't know

what a better metric than that is.

631

John: All right.

632

So you can success.

633

Springer: I, uh, yeah, no, we definitely

have a team that is, is monitoring our,

634

our brand tracker or our brand score.

635

Um, and we, we look at

that on the quarterly, um,

636

John: And obviously it goes

beyond awareness into like specific

637

like personality attributes

you're measuring against.

638

Is that right?

639

Springer: yep.

640

I'm looking at awareness

down into consideration down

641

into sentiment, all sorts of.

642

Data inside of an amazing PowerPoint, but

they just for us feeble minded creatives.

643

And there, we do pivot all the time, like

some of our creative of, you know, this

644

one's performing stronger than others.

645

John: And I know you've only, only

been there two years, so you know,

646

you don't have the longest track

record, but do you see, have you seen a

647

correlation between when brand metrics

are kind of bumping and increasing?

648

Does that correlate to sales increases

or kind of hard to know just yet?

649

Springer: haven't seen that quite yet.

650

Um, it's, it's something that we're,

we're trying to get better at.

651

What I would say, um, again, just

to also demonstrate the power and

652

the value of brand versus power

and value of new shoe, new tent.

653

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a little

bit of, of, of both right now.

654

Cause I think we need

to educate internally.

655

Um, and we also need to figure out how and

why we're doing more and more brand stuff

656

or more and more product focused stuff.

657

But, uh, that's something

in our future for sure.

658

Brian: I want to talk a little

bit about what you've mentioned a

659

couple of times about using film.

660

Can you, can you give people a little

bit of an understanding on, you know,

661

making the decision to, to use film,

which I think is absolutely fantastic,

662

but how does that impact a shoot?

663

What changes have to be made

based off of making that decision?

664

And, um, and what, what is

that like for everybody?

665

Springer: It's scary.

666

There's a reason why we, you know,

the industry kind of went away from

667

film and this isn't the whole reason.

668

Like I would say, like,

there's just an ease factor.

669

It's just, you don't have to carry

around canisters and canisters of film.

670

The cameras are much smaller and

easier to You know, find and utilize,

671

um, you know, digital cameras are,

um, you can mimic certain film

672

attributes sometimes, sometimes.

673

, and digital is cheaper.

674

, and so like, why wouldn't

you just use digital?

675

Um, How did I sell and how did we

sell in film of it's just gorgeous.

676

It has a raw, a raw feeling.

677

The grain, the texture.

678

Um, there's just something that feels

kind of memory esque, um, a bit more

679

aspirational in my mind, not as polished.

680

It feels again, a bit more authentic.

681

Um, even though our commercial was

very, very scripted and very produced,

682

it's just felt real, something

that you could relate to again.

683

Maybe it's a bit dreamy.

684

It creates an atmosphere of depth.

685

Uh, I don't know.

686

There's just, I, I

could just go on and on.

687

And I think the result of what we

got, hopefully kind of speaks for it.

688

I mean, we're still shooting in

digital but we're starting to shoot

689

more and more film photography as well.

690

It is scary because you have to

trust at the end of the day as well

691

that what you just shot for two

hours, you actually have on film.

692

Brian: So scary just to hear you say that.

693

Yeah.

694

Springer: That, you know, fix

it in post isn't as easy, uh,

695

on film as it is in digital.

696

Like you, you have to go with it.

697

You have to cut around stuff and,

you know, you have to work with it.

698

And I think that's also kind of fun.

699

Um, it kind of adds to the

rawness, the realness of.

700

Shit, if only she'd, ah

man, how do we make it work?

701

Um, yeah, I don't know.

702

I think I, I will always push for film.

703

Um, and again, huge shout out to

the directors, Damian Blue and

704

our GP, Quinn Feldman, um, cause

they were just, monstrous on set.

705

Um, the cameras that they brought,

we went underwater with my camera.

706

And so we had a complete like a

hydro housing look like an atom bomb.

707

It was dropping it into the water

and its own little submarine tank.

708

And then we put a film

camera inside of a dryer.

709

And we spun the dryer around, like,

We were like actively googling

710

on the side the melting point of

film, To like, no, like, we were

711

Brian: What is it, by the way?

712

Springer: We were safe, but

713

John: know, you know, there's a,

there's an air cycle, you don't need

714

to turn the heat on those things.

715

Springer: No, we were like in some public

laundromat and it was, there was no air.

716

It was just like low, medium and high.

717

They built this amazing rig and actually

ran the dryer and ran it for a few times.

718

And again, it's one of those moments where

you're like, you're hoping you get it.

719

They have some monitors and some

feeds, but it's like a digital feed.

720

And so you're like, I hope.

721

What we're getting is,

is just as beautiful.

722

It's stressful, but I think the

end result, when you see it for

723

the first time, you're just like,

so happy that that was why, you

724

know, the decision you've made.

725

John: It's really cool to hear you

talk so lovingly about, about film, you

726

know, and now's a good time for us to

cut away to, uh, our sponsor promotion,

727

uh, Kodak has sponsored this episode.

728

So, uh, no, it really is cause you

know, the, your focus on the craft.

729

You know, it is something that I think

a lot of times I associate with what you

730

get at spending a lot of money going to,

you know, a big well staffed ad agency,

731

the fact that you're doing it in house,

the fact that you were able to sell in

732

the extra time and budget to get the craft

where it needs to be to reflect the brand.

733

It is, it is really neat to hear

and, and your enthusiasm for it

734

is really, uh, it's palpable.

735

So thanks for sharing that.

736

Springer: No, absolutely.

737

I mean, again, REI took,

you know, a chance, a risk.

738

I don't know, maybe they didn't

or, you know, hiring an agency guy.

739

Um, I think they did that for a reason.

740

Um, so for them to, to listen and

believe and trust, um, that we're going

741

to get an amazing product is, is great.

742

It's a good feeling.

743

John: Speaking of that, , do you

get the sense that there are more

744

creatives looking to move from agency

side to in house like you've done?

745

Springer: Absolutely.

746

John: There's more of that now.

747

Springer: Yeah, I, I, the,

the agency model is, is hard.

748

I mean, it's, it's exhausting and I

think that's one of the big things.

749

COVID, COVID was a great wake

up, um, because we don't have to

750

go into the office and actually

stay in the office all day.

751

We can work from home and that gave

us a, a bit more yearning to not

752

want to have to work from home.

753

So damn much.

754

And I can't speak for the entire industry.

755

And I, there's still people

that love the hustle.

756

I ultimately, sometimes I

still yearn for that myself.

757

Um, but not on a daily

basis, not on a weekly basis.

758

Um, rarely a monthly basis, but I, I

think that that shift, and if you're

759

able to find a place that has already

a solid in house team, yeah, why not?

760

Like hustle, make it, you know, you can,

you can still hop around if you need to.

761

You can still work on

different brands, right?

762

So I, I, I see that that trend just going

to continue, if not exponentially more.

763

That's my POE.

764

That's, sorry.

765

Brian: for me.

766

what, what sort of ways did you take your,

your larger commercial and kind of break

767

it down into other pieces of content?

768

Like, how have you been able

to use that That commercial to

769

distribute that in other ways,

770

Springer: a good question.

771

Um, I mean, we, we do a lot of

social short, we shot a lot and

772

that one spot was part of, I think,

six other spots that we shot.

773

Um, different times, time durations.

774

I mean, from that 30, I think we

got a 15, a 10, a six, and we've

775

got some still assets from it.

776

Um, the overall branding as well.

777

Everything that we used in there

was used across our entire system.

778

And I think just the again, the locations

that we shot at, we also for film,

779

um, the video we also shot and stills.

780

Um, so just looking at efficiencies across

the board for the production itself,

781

John: You got a lot of great

stuff from that campaign.

782

What's next before we let you go?

783

What's next for REI?

784

What are we going to

see from you guys next?

785

Springer: just the next

chapter of that opt outside.

786

I mean, that was our launch of just

reintroducing it back into the world of

787

saying, Hey, um, you can make a cognizant

choice to break some of this autopilot.

788

And we're just going to take it and

continue to expand upon that narrative.

789

John: We look forward to seeing it unfold

and, uh, and seeing your career progress.

790

We really appreciate you joining us.

791

It's been a great talking to you.

792

Springer: Thank you, Brian.

793

Thank you, John.

794

Brian: Can't wait to see what's next.

795

John: Yeah.

796

Yeah.

797

Keep us outside.

798

Springer: Absolutely.

799

Brian: John, that was a great interview.

800

It's always nice talking to, um, the

people that are really connected into, um,

801

into the, into the brands they worked for.

802

And, Springer, um, you know,

he's just really inspired by that

803

brand and he's doing great things.

804

John: Yeah.

805

So, so mellow, so chill.

806

It's interesting how he seems to

kind of almost to me reflect a

807

little bit of that brand, right?

808

, He's all about simplicity

and clarity and authenticity.

809

And I think, you know, that's one

of the things that really stands

810

out to that, to me about that brand

is, you know, just really authentic.

811

No matter what you see, it just is

really about enjoying the outside.

812

Hmm.

813

Great

814

Brian: You know, a lot of times

when you, you hear about creating

815

efficiency by bringing a lot of

these, um, creative people in house.

816

, it usually means that they're gonna, you

know, just be not take as many chances.

817

And, uh, And they're

really swinging for it.

818

I love that they're using film.

819

I love that they're, um, really

digging into this, opt outside

820

identity and really weaving it into

the stories that they're telling.

821

And, um, so I, it's a, it's a great story.

822

John: Yeah, it really is a great point

about that, about that team not taking

823

the easy path, but you know, getting

outside their lane and getting outside,

824

Brian: Yeah.

825

Inspiring to see that, you know, you

can still, achieve what creative

826

people want to do at an agency,

you know, with, uh, with a brand.

827

So, um, that's a good story

for a lot of people to hear.

828

John: you know, probably easier for them

because hearing him talk, it does seem

829

like they have all bought in, right?

830

They truly do enjoy what

the brand stands for,.

831

Yeah.

832

Brian: Absolutely.

833

John: All right.

834

Well, speaking about caring, uh,

Brian, I care very much that we

835

got this podcast done and that

we've got another one lined up.

836

Brian: I'm glad we still

remember how to do it.

837

Well, you know, for our listeners,

stay tuned for another great episode

838

coming up in the next couple of weeks.

839

As always, if you enjoy the episode,

make sure to share it on social.

840

You know, tell your friends

841

John: Tell your friends.

842

Hell, tell your enemies.

843

We don't care.

844

Tell anybody.

845

Brian: Matthew McConaughey.

846

John: Tell Matthew McConaughey.

847

All right, man.

848

See you later.

849

Brian: All right.

850

See ya.