The JudgeMental Podcast – EP 41: Mommy Jail

In this gripping episode of The JudgeMental Podcast, Christine and Hugh break down a shocking incident in family court where a mother was abruptly jailed by Judge Ogden. The hosts recount the courtroom drama, including the judge’s reaction to claims of due process violations, the role and neutrality of the Friend of the Court (FOC), and the controversial use of psychological evaluations as punitive measures.

Key Topics Discussed:

The events leading up to a mother being remanded to jail during a motion hour.

The judge’s handling of courtroom decorum and due process rights.

The FOC’s emotional response and questions about neutrality.

The use of psych evals in family court and their impact on parents.

Broader patterns in Louisville Family Court, especially regarding the treatment of Black mothers.

The importance of transparency, accountability, and the need for reform in family court practices.

Christine and Hugh invite listeners to share their own stories and experiences with family court, Judge Ogden, or FOC conflicts. Connect with the show and join the conversation at the judge-y app or visit judge-y.com.

Disclaimer: The content of this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be construed as legal advice. Always consult a qualified attorney for your specific legal concerns.

Listen now to get the full story and join the movement for justice in family court!

LEGAL DISCLAIMER

The content of this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only. It is not intended to be, and should not be construed as, legal advice. Engaging with this content does not create an attorney-client relationship between you and the hosts, guests, or their firms. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any law firm, company, or organization. We make no representations or warranties regarding the accuracy, completeness, or applicability of the information presented. Any reliance on the information in this podcast is at your own risk. Laws are constantly changing, and every situation is unique. You should always seek the advice of a qualified attorney for your specific legal concerns.

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: All right, judge Ogden.

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Put a mom in jail.

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Hugh: She did.

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She did it rather abruptly.

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And it was, honestly, I've seen

some, I've seen some stuff in my

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time litigating in family court.

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I've seen people arrested try to run from

the judge to keep from going to jail.

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Yep.

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I've seen all kinds of stuff.

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I don't think I've seen.

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Anything like that before

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Christine: it was

completely disproportionate.

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And for let's be very, let's

use the right verbiage.

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During a court hearing, the judge remanded

a mother to a holding cell in the back.

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And while we were there in motion

hour, indicated that this mom was

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gonna spend a couple nights in jail.

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Right.

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And

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Hugh: then order that

she get a psych eval.

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Christine: Yeah, yeah.

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Hugh: Based on her.

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And said specifically based on

her conduct in the courtroom.

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Christine: Yeah.

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, I have seen people say and do all

kinds of crazy things in court.

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Oh, I've seen

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Hugh: attorneys, yeah.

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Be far more disruptive and disrespectful.

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In their arguments at motion hour

and not even get a rebuke from a

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judge than this person did that

ended up getting, being locked up.

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And you know, , I know

she has now been released.

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Christine: She was released same day.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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And, but the judge said you need to.

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Been a few nights or a few days in jail.

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Christine: And so we, I immediately

requested the tape, but, and this

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is one of those, you know, I love

the, like psychological studies

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or whatever where it's like, how

much do you actually remember?

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But this is, if I had to say under

oath, what I remember happening, it was

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a motion to remove an FOC on the case.

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Correct.

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And the woman, the mom that was

remanded, had an attorney that

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was there on her behalf on Zoom.

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Hugh: On Zoom,

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Christine: and the mom was there

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Hugh: in person.

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Christine: The mom was there,

she was sitting at counsel's

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table very respectfully.

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Like actually she had this cute sweater

on that said Mother on the background.

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I really, on the back, I really loved it.

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I remember seeing

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Hugh: it.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Christine: And it was like funky.

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I really loved it.

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It was kind of like eighties vibe.

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Yeah, it

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Hugh: was.

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That's right.

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Christine: But anyway, so they're,

there renewing emotion to remove the FOC

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based on some new stuff, which I think

was grounds for removal in my opinion.

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The FOC had a very emotional reaction.

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The FOC had not filed

a report as required.

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The FOC wanted to stay on the case

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Hugh: and, well, , the new information

in this new motion was that there

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is litigation not related to this

family court case that involved

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both the FOC and one of the parties.

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Christine: Yeah.

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So this mom had filed to have the

FOC Pashens Fitzpatrick removed.

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I don't know when really,

I think months ago.

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Based on the fact that the FOC

and opposing counsel were sorority

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sisters, the judge calls the motion,

the judge says something along the

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lines, oh, they were sorority sisters.

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That's not enough.

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Then mom's attorney says,

there's more information now.

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Mom has been subpoenaed as an

adverse witness in a circuit civil

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case, and the judge, of course,

judge Ogden hadn't reviewed

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hadn't read the motion, in my opinion.

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She,

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Hugh: because she said, you know,

when she said, oh yes, I know you're

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asking to recuse her because they were

sorority, they were sorority sisters.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or something.

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You know, this mother's attorney

said, no, judge, it's, you

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know, these are new grounds.

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Mm-hmm.

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And the judge had not said,

oh, I hadn't seen that.

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Of course.

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Yeah.

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It was prominent in the motion.

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It was the crux of the motion being

filed and then being heard that day.

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So clearly the judge had not read

the motion that was before her.

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Christine: So then the FOC kind of goes

off and is talking, defending herself.

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I think she does a dog whistle

to the court, basically.

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Because this other.

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Civil action is apparently there's

some litigation or some mention

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of litigation against a different

family court judge, judge Ward.

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Mm-hmm.

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And that's what really caused Judge

Ogden to change, in my opinion.

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Hugh: Yeah, that's true.,

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There was mention, so there FOC

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is.

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Getting to speak to the judge.

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Mm-hmm.

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Now, this FOC is not an

acting attorney in the case.

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It's not a GAL not making legal argument.

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This is a person that's there to

investigate and, you know, we've,

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we've been through, over and

over , the requirement for them to

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file a report and then have 10 days.

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This is a little bit of a weird situation

because there's been allegations about

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her ability to handle this appointment

correctly and needing to be removed, but.

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If the judge needs to hear from someone

who is a witness, someone appointed as

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a, an investigate in an investigatory

role, that person needs to be under oath.

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Christine: Yeah.

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No one was sworn in.

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We need

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Hugh: to have a hearing.

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Yeah.

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So instead, judge Ogden gave the floor

to the FOC to say whatever she wanted.

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And during the FOCs.

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Rather long response,

emotional defensive response.

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And I get it.

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I would be a little no res, I

would be a little defensive with

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allegations are made, but I,

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Christine: no,

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Hugh: the way that she respond and

spoke about the mother basically

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highlighted why she should not be

on this case a hundred percent and

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she can't continue on as this case.

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But the judge didn't seem

to react that way to it.

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Yeah.

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But when another judge, an action against

another judge was mentioned, you could

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tell that there was a change , in the

way that the judge's demeanor was.

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Yep.

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And the facial expression and everything.

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Christine: And FOCs are

supposed to be neutral.

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That is literally on the order

of appointing most FOCs, like

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you're a neutral investigative.

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Fact finder to issue a report to the court

10 days prior to hearing blah, blah, blah.

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There's no question in my mind

there's that the FOC in that

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moment was not NOT acting neutral.

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Hugh: There's, yeah.

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I don't think there's anyone in, even

the best attorney in the world isn't

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gonna be able to argue against that.

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Yeah.

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It was a very pointed response.

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It was emotional, it was.

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It just showed that there is a

conflict, real or perceived between

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this FOC and the mother, which I

think is what the mother's attorney's

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been saying for multiple motions now.

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Yeah, to remove her, aside from the

fact that she also hasn't filed a

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report or any of this stuff that she was

appointed to do, allegedly, I don't know.

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I looked at that wasn't part,

that's not part of what I'm

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necessarily looking at here.

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I'm looking at how the judge

is handling things here, not

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necessarily the attorneys.

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Christine: Well, for the listeners,

I did look at the file and I did not.

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See that a report had been filed.

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Okay.

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Now it's possible.

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I guess that one had not been

e-filed, but I, I didn't see one.

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That's true.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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Hugh: And sometimes things get

filed through the clerk's office

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and they do not get scanned in into

court net, so we don't see them.

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Mm-hmm.

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Sometimes they get notated in court net,

but the scan isn't there for us to see.

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So there it is possible that one

was filed there, but the allegations

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were That one hasn't been.

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Yeah.

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So we're, we're taking the, yeah.

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The attorney who filed the

motion at their word, they're

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saying that no order was filed.

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, And when Christine looked

online, she didn't see an order.

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I mean, sorry, a report.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Hugh: So

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Christine: and so the other

thing is we are probably like

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10 minutes into this podcast.

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We got a mom that was.

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Put in jail in a holding cell in the back.

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And at this point in the story,

mom has not said anything.

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So you had the attorney make the argument?

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I thought it was a well,

well-made argument.

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She was, yeah,

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Hugh: she did, she did a good job.

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She explained it out.

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She said it in a very analytical way,

but a very clear way laying out why this

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FOC needed to be removed from the case.

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Christine: And so then the FOC responds,

and then after the FOC responds.

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My recollection is that Mom said

something along the lines of

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everything she's saying is a lie.

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Your Honor, we have evidence.

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Hugh: Yes, and I think she said it.

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So the FOC.

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And in, in my experience in front of

Judge Ogden, she can let people just

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go on and on as long as they want.

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Mm-hmm.

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So she was letting the FOC go on, she

was making statements about the mom.

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Mm-hmm.

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And the mom was sitting there

quieting quietly listening to it, and

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finally spoke up and said something.

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Now, if you speak over someone, and

it happens all the time in court, you

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usually will hear from the judge and

the judge will say, let them finish.

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I will give you a chance to speak.

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I've done it many times.

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I've done it as a tactic many times to

break the cadence of someone that's just

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going on and on and on there, there.

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It's just something that

happens in the court.

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It is not something that if someone you

go to jail for speaks over someone else

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that you go to jail for and honestly.

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There have been plenty of times where

I have been in Judge Ogden's court

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where someone keeps speaking over

me and she won't say anything and I

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think there's no courtroom control at

all and I'm getting frustrated 'cause

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she lets people talk over each other.

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So it is.

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Out the ordinary for Yes, the

mother to speak up this way.

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And I think she said, judge, or Your

Honor, and she, she was polite about it.

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Yeah.

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And she wasn't yelling,

she wasn't screaming.

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Christine: She was emphatic.

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I mean, she was a little spicy, but Yeah.

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Hugh: Well, she, yeah.

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I mean, she felt that there were lies, but

the judge's reaction that basically said.

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You're not gonna

interrupt this proceeding.

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Basically, you don't get to speak.

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Yeah.

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You have an attorney here.

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You don't speak, you have an attorney.

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You don't get to speak and basically I'm

gonna let the FOC, who isn't sworn in, I'm

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gonna let her say whatever she wants and

you don't get to say anything about it.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Hugh: Now

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Christine: then it just seemed

like it, the judge heightened.

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This emotional response, I mean, times 10.

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Oh yeah.

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And then it was like very much, you

know, you and I are in the courtroom

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watching, there were other attorneys

there, and then there's something

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about like, you know, you're not gonna

get to talk and you need to leave.

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And then the mom says something and

then the mom says about appealing

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to a higher court and you're

not violating my due process.

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Well,

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Hugh: so the, so the judge said, do

you need to go in my holding cell?

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Yeah.

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And cool off.

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And the woman said.

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Something to the effect of, oh,

that's fine if you just want

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to deny my due process rights.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Or violate.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Violate my

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Hugh: due process rights.

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And that was, that was the end.

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Christine: Yep.

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And that was like, oh, you're

gonna spend a couple days in jail.

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And again, we'll get the full tape,

like we can't record it in real time.

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And there is a recording of it.

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I've already requested

it, but we were taking

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Hugh: notes and

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Christine: Yeah.

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But the second that due process,

and y'all know, judge Ogden has

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been overturned by the Court of

Appeals on numerous occasions.

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Numerous two emergency orders where

she blatantly violated due process.

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Hugh: And that's always

highlighted in those orders.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Hugh: The, it's, it's for the

violation of people's due process.

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So that's a hot button issue.

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It should never be, due process

should never be a hot button issue.

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No, not in the United

States with a constitution.

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Christine: But, and it shouldn't be

violated like, you know how rare it is.

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For the court of appeals to be like

you blatantly violated due process.

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Like there could be other procedural

issues or like an issue of first

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impression that goes before the

court or like interpreting a statue.

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But just, I mean, it, it's truly wild.

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And you know, this podcast we

have called for Judge Ogden to

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either resign or be removed.

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It's too much at this point.

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I know that she feels the pressure on her.

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I do think her reaction was unhinged.

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I think she's under an

immense amount of pressure.

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Publicly.

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Hugh: Sure.

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I mean, there wasn't

really a proper warning.

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There wasn't I don't, I don't

remember her asking the woman to leave

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before, before I think she did okay.

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But I, I don't remember that.

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I just remember as soon as the woman

said something about due process, the

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judge said, I'm holding you in . I'm

holding you in contempt of court.

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You're gonna spend a few nights in

jail and order the, the bailiff to.

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Lock her up.

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Christine: Yeah.

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And y'all, the mom's like, you're gonna

said something about she was a, had a

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special needs child, like you're gonna

lock up a mom with a special needs child.

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Or, I'm just trying to advocate for my

special needs child and the judge puts her

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in the back or you know, orders that she'd

be taken to the back in the holding cell.

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I went and looked at the file and the

father doesn't even live in the state.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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So this, this is a kid that.

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I, I'm, I don't know what arrangements

were made or whether she was allowed

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to make arrangements for this child to

be picked up who was caring for this

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child, but clearly none of those things

were considerations for Judge Ogden.

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She just got angry about, you

know, the statement that she was

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violating her due process, right?

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Yep.

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And.

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And so she just locked her up, didn't

engage in violated or due process, right?

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Locked her up.

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I'm not gonna let you speak.

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I'm gonna let a witness speak against you,

not gonna let you speak or respond to it.

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And then when you try to and state

that you have a right to do it.

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I'm gonna lock you up.

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I mean, it was, I.

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And, and

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Christine: in 15 years I have

never, I have seen people act

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out of pocket in court for sure.

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For sure.

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This didn't even come close to rising to

the level of incarceration, in my opinion.

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Hugh: No,, I agree with that.

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And, and, and to be fair,

judges have broad discretion

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in maintaining the decorum.

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And the order in their courtroom if

this woman had stood up and was yelling

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and trying to interrupt the proceedings

and keep it from going forward.

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Absolutely.

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That's the kind of thing you use this for.

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Mm-hmm.

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But that isn't what happened here.

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No.

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And there were lots, there were

a lot of people in the courtroom

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while we were sitting there.

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There were really audible and I can't

wait to hear the video to see if you

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can hear people, but there were gasps.

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Yeah.

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, Christine: In this.

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I didn't know what to do.

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Courtroom.

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Hugh: It caught everyone's attention.

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And then afterwards, people were

talking about multiple people.

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People have been practicing longer

than I ever practiced saying they'd

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never seen anything like that.

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So it was, it was significant.

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Christine: Yes.

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And I mean, honestly, it's, I think

we got a lot of questions afterwards.

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Do we think that our

presence heightened it?

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It's possible.

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Hugh: Sure.

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But I mean, I mean,

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Christine: was she sit, was she putting

her, her like an innocent person in

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custody as a warning to us to shut

our mouths and stop talking about it?

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Hugh: No, we weren't

talking in court, so no, no.

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We can't hold stop

publicly from talking here.

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Yeah, I don't know.

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All I know is she is under a lot

of scrutiny, not just from us.

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She is constantly being scrutinized

by the court of appeals.

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There are other appeals that

are, you know, pending there.

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There are plenty of things that have

been filed because of her behavior.

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I was just really surprised.

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With all of the heat that's been on

her with us sitting in the courtroom,

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that she would act that way.

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Yeah.

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And that tells me, you know,

we've questioned in past podcasts,

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why, why would she be doing this?

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Yeah.

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Does she just not know?

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Is it an, is it intentional?

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Is she, is, is is something wrong?

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I, I think that the intentional

actions with us sitting there while

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she's under all this scrutiny.

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I think is really informative

about what's really going on here.

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That's all I'll say.

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I

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Christine: agree.

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Hugh: But yeah.

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And,

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Christine: and it brings us no joy.

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I mean, and I've talked about this on

other podcasts, like, and I know this is

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like a girl, you know, emotional moment.

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But you know, judge Ogden is a

kind person outside of court.

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She's always been kind

and respectful to me.

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Me too.

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And a lot of the judges are not okay.

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They are not, they're judges that I have

very, there is one judge in particular.

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Y'all know who she is, that I

literally can't be objective.

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Like I can't be objective

when it comes to her.

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There have been too much, there's been

too much that's happened personally

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and that affected my clients and

that that is not Judge Ogden.

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That being said, what Judge Ogden is

doing, like what she did to that mother.

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It was just so unnecessary what she

did in the baby case, insane and

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unnecessary what she did in the Nevada

case, like truly shouldn't happen

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in the United States of America.

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Hugh: No, that that is true and , I

will reiterate what you said.

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I mean, she is.

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One of the few judges I've ever

seen where we have events within the

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family court bar where you can sort

of speak openly and speak your mind.

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Judges to attorneys, attorneys to judges.

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She's one of the only people that I've

always felt that I could just come up to

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, and give feedback and she would take it

and talk about it, and there just didn't

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seem to be an ego there with that at all.

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Yeah, and I always.

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Found that to be very, very refreshing.

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Christine: Oh, that is a brilliant

point, what you just said.

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And we can kind of, we'll pivot a little

bit to the psych eval, but there wasn't

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ego in the moment of incarcerating her.

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Like there was ego in the Santry.

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Recusal, yeah.

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There was almost like I, she didn't know

what to do and she just reacted like

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an, like a like, don't challenge me.

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Yeah,

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Hugh: yeah.

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You're not, you're not gonna.

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Yeah, I, I agree.

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And it was, it was

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Christine: bizarre.

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Hugh: I mean, I've seen that,

so, you know, it's not a secret.

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I filed some of the appeals that have

been published against Judge Ogden,

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and in those instances, I also saw

that side of her that I'd never seen

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when she was a practicing attorney or

earlier on while she was on the bench.

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And I definitely saw it in locking

that mother up, that You're challenging

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me, you're going to get my wrath.

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, Christine: It, it was very

retaliatory, but it wasn't like.

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What is the word that I'm looking for?

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It wasn't like it was pre-planned

or there was like this mal intent.

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It was like this like immediate reaction

and like not knowing what to do.

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Like still in that moment I felt

sympathy for everyone involved.

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Now obviously there's a power

imbalance and , the only victim in

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that room no doubt was the mother.

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Okay.

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Obviously, I'm not saying that,

but it was just kind of pitiful

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is the word I'm looking for.

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Hugh: Yeah, no, it was, it

was someone that didn't, was.

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You were watching someone that was put

in a position that was very uncomfortable

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and didn't know how to handle.

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Yeah,

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Christine: yeah, yeah.

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That's, and

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Hugh: it, it's a very basic situation.

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Literally like when you have pro se

persons litigating in front of you all

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the time, like our family court does.

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Pro se people, while they are held to

the same standards as attorneys, they've,

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most of them have never been in there.

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Christine: Yeah.

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The

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Hugh: decorum, they don't

understand that people will react.

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They will talk over one another.

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, They will speak out when one

person is telling their side of

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the story saying that's not true.

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They get redirected to not do that.

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Yeah.

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Over and over.

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Over.

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And when I was an attorney representing

people, if we had someone on the other

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side without an attorney, it would

happen multiple times in every hearing.

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Yep.

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That person would react while my client

was testifying and the judge would have to

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say, okay, you're going to get to speak.

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I will make sure your side

gets heard, but you don't speak

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while that person's speaking.

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Yes sir.

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Ma'am.

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That's how you handle it.

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And you know, there's no doubt

that Judge Ogden has to do that all

473

the time on an almost daily basis

dealing with Pro Se persons hundred.

474

So this was not.

475

A situation that doesn't come

up over and over and over each

476

and every week in this court.

477

Christine: And that's why I

think it was the dog whistle.

478

I think it really was the FOC, just being

able to spew all of this information about

479

the other civil lawsuit against the FOC.

480

I really think the court was kind of just

reacting quick in time and defending the

481

FOC at all costs, insanely inappropriate.

482

And then let's get onto the psych eval.

483

I mean, psych evals

are the new lobotomies.

484

In family court?

485

Hugh: I wanna say in response to

what you just said, , I think that

486

using the words due process had an

effect on the judge when, when she

487

said something about due process.

488

Yeah, the psych eval part, you know,

so after she remand her to custody,

489

locks her up, makes a comment

about she needs to spend several

490

days in jail or several nights.

491

I don't remember what the comment

was, but it was multiple days.

492

Couple.

493

Yeah.

494

Yeah.

495

Couple.

496

That.

497

She said to this woman's attorney

who was still on Zoom because of your

498

client's behavior in this court, I'm

gonna order a psych evaluation like.

499

Based on someone pointing out that

the FOC was not telling the truth.

500

Christine: Allegedly.

501

Hugh: Allegedly, yeah.

502

And

503

Christine: well now there, there was a

motion on for a psych eval, but I think

504

psych evals are utilized as weapons in

family court psyche value course they are.

505

Psych evals are stupid.

506

And you guys, I have decided

that I'm gonna get one.

507

I'm gonna get several.

508

I'm gonna get tons.

509

I've actually, I'm gonna reach

out to Marvin and McCrary to see

510

how much, much it would cost for

them to do a psych eval on me.

511

Kathryn Burle, I'll reach out to

you to see how much it would cost.

512

I will have any psych eval

that anyone will pay for.

513

And we'll fundraise some money

to try to get me psych evals.

514

Oh man.

515

And they can be completely released.

516

I'll sign whatever it is.

517

I will limit, I will reduce all

liability to anybody and everybody.

518

I don't have to read 'em.

519

You can publish 'em.

520

Love.

521

I can't object to anything that you say.

522

I can't object to anything that you do.

523

Because you know, and I, we already know

what it's gonna say for the most part.

524

Hugh: But I, oh, it'll be so much fun for

people to confirm what I already know.

525

Yeah.

526

Christine: Generalized anxiety disorder,

you know, like, a little bit of a

527

hypochondriac, LOL, but, and maybe

something else, but it is what it is,

528

but it's, it is such a weapon that is

utilized by people going through one

529

of the most difficult times in their

entire life to take away their children.

530

, Hugh: Yeah, it is one thing

to have ordered that it's one

531

thing to order it punitively.

532

Right after you've locked

someone up, so it was okay.

533

Locking you up is not

punishment enough, but.

534

And you, you pointed out that there

had been a motion filed for it.

535

Yeah, but the judge made clear it

wasn't because of the motion, it's

536

because of what she did in court.

537

She's asking for she's requiring

a psychological evaluation.

538

She was punishing this woman with

a psycho evaluation for making

539

those statements that we have.

540

You know, revealed here?

541

Yeah, just those statements

and you get a psych evaluation.

542

Christine: It's like, from the review of

the file, it appears that she's the sole

543

provider of this special needs child.

544

And so it, what is the

point of the psych eval?

545

Like to punish the person

that's been the sole provider

546

of the child their entire life.

547

Like I just, psych evals, the

involvement of psychiatry, psychologist.

548

Therapist, play therapist, court ordered

therapist, you know, and again, all

549

these people that are doing these things.

550

Once you're appointed by the

court, it comes with immunity.

551

What are we doing and I'm gonna

say it in Kentucky, and I follow

552

more cases than you probably.

553

Yep.

554

And this is my belief and , I'll

stand by it, but we've got a real

555

problem in Louisville Family Court

where black mothers are being painted

556

as crazy and this is happening in

557

every court, regardless of the judge's

sexual identity, race, religion, gender,

558

it is a pattern that I cannot not see.

559

Hugh: Okay.

560

This is not something that, that,

you know,, I'm very concerned about

561

that, and I, it's something that I'm

going to be watching for and I'm gonna

562

be, I'm gonna be looking at as well.

563

Christine: Well, and this woman

that was remained a custody, she

564

was a black female, black mom.

565

Correct.

566

And I have seen men.

567

Attorneys fathers say that's a

lie, nothing happened to 'em.

568

I have, I'm following a couple cases

right now, out of all different

569

divisions, even when there are high

asset cases involving black or African

570

American females, it seems to be

this propensity to say they're crazy.

571

Hmm.

572

And that's just , you know,

that's a pattern that I'm looking.

573

We wanna hear all your

stories on Judge Dash y.

574

That mom was released.

575

I looked at the court order.

576

Court orders were not entered as

far as the confinement or whatever,

577

at least as of like an hour ago.

578

And today is what is today?

579

Hugh: Thursday.

580

Christine: Okay.

581

And so that's four days later.

582

And this

583

Hugh: happened on Monday.

584

Yep.

585

Christine: But there was an order

for the psych eval and there was some

586

other orders setting the hearing.

587

So we will wait, but I think.

588

There's no question that first off,

the FOC should be removed and Judge

589

Ogden can't stay on this case.

590

Hugh: Yeah, so I, I think this

is, there are a lot of things

591

here I would be interested to

hear from practitioners about.

592

Number one, what you've brought

up about the pattern re related

593

to black females is fascinating

to me, and I would like to hear.

594

If other people have noticed

that kind of a pattern, because I

595

think that's something important

to highlight if it's happening.

596

Number two, whether or not an FOC

should be able to speak in motion hour.

597

Now we've talked about it in situations

where if they are giving their

598

report or talking about the case,

this was a little bit different.

599

Yeah.

600

'cause there are allegations

that she cannot properly do the

601

job, but the role of the FOC.

602

As an investigatory witness

doesn't change, even though the

603

allegations don't pertain to the

parents themselves necessarily.

604

Yep.

605

I still think, you know, the rules

are the same about whether or not they

606

can speak at the motion hour, but.

607

It's something that I'd never considered

before, and I'd like to, I'd like to

608

hear what people think about whether

or not an FOC should be able to defend

609

themselves from that kind of a motion,

or whether they should have a hearing

610

and the FOC , they should be able to hash

out those facts with the FOC serving as

611

a witness testifying about those facts.

612

Christine: I think the notion that an

FOC is ever quote unquote defending

613

themselves in and of itself is a problem.

614

Well, that's

615

Hugh: a different question.

616

That's a different question.

617

Also a very good point, but that's

a different question about Totally.

618

You know, whether or not you,

you have, you know, what we

619

talk about as Emberton rights.

620

Yeah.

621

You know, to, if that FOC

can really come in and.

622

Speak the way that this fo this,

the judge permitted this FOC too.

623

I'm not saying that FOC

did anything wrong here.

624

The judge ask her to speak.

625

Yeah.

626

And whether or not that was proper and

whether an FOC should be able to speak

627

without being sworn and tell the court

things that the court acts on in any

628

capacity, even if it's not directly

related to the clients in the case.

629

I, I'm interested to

hear what people think.

630

Christine: Absolutely judge y.com.

631

Tell us your Ogden stories.

632

Tell us your FOC stories.

633

We're really gonna do some deep dive.

634

We had so many recusal

motions and removal motions.

635

Yep.

636

We're gonna start really kinda

looking at, into conflicts of

637

interest within the family court bar.

638

Hugh: Yep.

639

I think I think we're gonna find

a lot judging from just what we've

640

looked into and the fact that we

will show up just for one day to see.

641

One thing and then step into all kinds

of other things that we're seeing.

642

I have a feeling that

there's a lot more out there,

643

Christine: y'all, and for

just advice for the judges.

644

It's real easy for you guys to

get to work on time, do your

645

job, and stop giving us content.

646

Hugh: But don't you know?

647

Yeah.

648

Our goal is to make all of

that stop, but you know,

649

Christine: oh, bye y'all.

650

You're

651

Hugh: making it easy on us.

652

Thank you.

653

Next call.

654

We need some justice, justice, justice.

655

And I wanna ring bells in public.

656

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

657

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

658

I To the fo Yeah.

659

I to the fo fo teaser.

660

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