Here Katrina Webb puts Sarah Henry and I right , the expression she always goes back to is “your body is your barometer” . Katrina tells us that we need to listen to it. Because it is so often right! She says she meets too many leaders who are intellectual and spend too much time in their heads. Our bodies might just tell us to lie down quietly or run up a hill NOW - just at the right moment - before we blow the next meeting or process or thinking.

And Katrina adds that a strong relationship with our bodies is a starting point for having a strong relationship with others, it helps us to judge as leaders  “when to come in and out”.

Julia Middleton 0:01

Thanks for listening to the women emerging podcast. Every week we put up a new episode with insights into leadership, practical leadership, seen through the eyes of women leaders of all ages and all sectors from right across the world. Our aim is for women to be able to say, if that's leadership I'm in. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and join women emerging on our website, women emerging.org. That's women emerging.or. More fabulous, free leadership content. Welcome, welcome. Welcome Julie Middleton, Director of women and merging and podcast host. Last week, we started the process of sharing the approach to leadership that resonates for women that we we discovered over a year long expedition and put together when we met in Bellagio at the end of it a couple of weeks ago. One of the strongest messages for us all was that, particularly for women leaders, you really have to start by understanding your own essence. What is it that's right at the heart of you that that that frames you that shapes you that shapes your behaviour that influences how you actually lead. And knowing your own essence is absolutely crucial to being a good leader. It's absolutely crucial to to being able to translate what your essence is into how you then express how you lead, and don't produce a sort of disconnect between the two. Without doubt, every single one of us on the expedition had different elements to different degrees with different ratios within our own essences. And I think what we discovered was both the difference, but also, the really important thing is to know what your own individual one is. We started therefore, by thinking that the helpful thing that we could do for other women leaders, was to try to unpick some of the common elements in all of the essences of the women on the expedition and try to express them by way of an offering by way of an illustration, by way of helping other women to, to dig deep and find what is in their own essence. Last week, we spoke to a partner about the fact that there are a big element of her essence, is spirituality, or, as she explained very clearly to us. Spiritual spirituality is probably a weak word, the better word that she that she that she coined was sacred. The secret is deep in her essence. So apparent that explain why, and what and how. But she also then went on to talk about how sacred the sacred being in her essence, had a deep impact on how she leads and chooses to lead. This week, we're going to talk to Katrina. And she's going to talk about the physical, why it's so much part of her essence, and how in her case, it influences her leadership. As an Olympian, she's thought about this a great deal. And as a Paralympian, maybe even more. Before you listen to Katrina. Let me just explain that you're held here bells in the background. We recorded this series of podcast episodes, a panel last week, Katrina this week, and then four other women over the next four weeks talking about elements of the bits in their essence. We recorded it in a little Italian visit village that was not far away from Bellagio called Bargo to Chino, in a in a beautiful house that we rented as an Airbnb that we had gathered in before we went to Bellagio and we that we grouped together some of us in after Bellagio. And and in those days after Bellagio, I spoke to a partner and to Katrina, but when I actually chose to Speak to Katrina, the bells began to ring. There was a moment, that brief moment when I thought, well, maybe we should start recording again. But to be honest, the bills were so beautiful, that we decided to keep going. Katrina, there were some key moments over the last four days where we break away from intellectual discussions and emotional discussions and rational discussions and actually recognised that the physical is is an essential piece of leadership, and particularly for women. I could see you nodding across the table. Why were you nodding?

Unknown Speaker 5:52

Wow, that's one of my main languages. When you've come through sport and spent, you know, 12 years mastering physical there are other components to that, of course, as an athlete, the mental part, the emotional part and the and the spiritual part. But the physical body for me has been something I've learned to really master and, and have a language with, and listen to, and not just rely on on the intellectual component.

Julia Middleton 6:21

The bountiful amazing years you see, go on, more and more, tell me more?

Unknown Speaker 6:27

Well, you know, when being an athlete, one of the things one of the gifts of being an athlete, like I haven't been one for some time now. But what I had learned from being an athlete was to be able to listen and listen to your body. And there is a wonderful book that my husband actually gave me that he had for years called your body as your barometer. And you can go into that and look into certain parts if you have any pain or soreness or illness, that it can relate to certain parts of the body. And yes, you can use that. But for me that term, that title, your body is your barometer set. So well with me, our body is telling us is telling us messages all the time. And when you're able to develop a relationship with your body and to listen to it and know what it's telling you this is this is what leadership is in the sense. The fact that you know, you need to be able to listen, listen. So once you've got that relationship with your body to go okay, something is telling me that I need to listen, do I need to be still do I need to go and run do I need to go into nature, what is my body telling me that it needs to, to come back to that centre point to I use the term re energise, I use it a lot. And I use my physical to re energise. And, and for a lot of people, they might go, oh, that means you go for a run, no, it means I, I can lay on the floor. And be still, because my body is telling me it needs to be quiet, it needs to ground it needs to gain energy. Other times where I've got, you know, I've we've had these hard intellectual discussions, and there's so much emotion, my body is telling me like one of the days we met really hard, we had really hard and amazing conversations and very deeply emotional. And there was a lot of triggers for all of us in different ways. As soon as, as soon as we left that room, my body said you need to walk up to the castle. It was dark, I didn't care, I just knew I had to dissipate that energy from a physical point of view. So I could come back and be present, and have wonderful conversations afterwards. So a big part of leading and understanding self and leading self is having a relationship, a strong relationship with what your body needs, and how we can use our physical body to make sure that we can, we can show up the way we want to show up in leadership. And that's different for all of us, what I do, will be different to you, Julia. There's many of us that will do different things. And it's not prescriptive, it's precision and it's about really understanding and listening to yourself. So when you're able to do that, as a leader, you then have that ability to be able to listen to others needs and know when to step in, and when to be quiet. And that fluidity that that's why that infinity sign that has come up through the programme means so much for me because it's about knowing when to come in and come out but also at the same time for yourself how that works with others, but also with yourself. So there's that dance

Julia Middleton 9:35

now just explain the Infinity bit explain more what you mean by the infinity sign.

Unknown Speaker 9:40

So the infinity infinity sign for me that this is just its current

Julia Middleton 9:44

sideways, Lord, sideways,

Unknown Speaker 9:47

eight. Yeah. So there's this it's constantly in flow. And it's going out, of course to others. So if we put the Infinity between us now and we've got that age, but it's it's open And then it's never ending, it's, it's this flow of energy that goes from, from you and to me and back again. And it's physical. It can be, yeah, it's energy. It can be physical, it can be emotional. It can be there's so much in that. As, as leaders, whether you whether you whenever you leave a room, you're leaving a room, people, there's there is an energy, there's an exchange that happens. And I often say to people, how does the room feel once you leave? How does the room change? What will change when you come in? What are you leaving behind? Because even if you don't say anything, you're saying something and you're leaving an energy or a feeling, which was related to how you take care of yourself,

and, and leaders do often forget to even watch the physical in other people don't.

I see a lot of leaders that are intellectual and spending a lot of time in their head. And maybe haven't found that connection to, to the physical yet. I love that word yet. Because opens up that possibility. It's that again, infinity. I can't do that yet. And I'm finding a relationship with a physical, we were talking about it this morning, actually, because music has been all around us in our rooms. And we've come up with music being a universal language, that even if you don't play an instrument, but some people can turn away from music, I'm looking at this guitar right now. And if I think about, I don't play a musical instrument, I can say I'm not musical. And I can turn away from the word music. However, music is a huge part of my life. Yes, I listened to it. And I have my own music. I mean, even that, in that it's the sense of what music do you leave? As a leader? What is your music? What is your essence, but it's the same with movement? I mean, people might see that term physical or the term and then they relate it to, of course Katrina's physical because she's been an athlete. And she does that. But for me, I don't even use the term. But in the work that I do talking about leadership, I talk about movement. And how do you move your body,

you've led some, I mean, you've led some big teams to some global events. I was thinking about it just before we came on the expedition, there was a podcast episode by a Polish conductor, who was beautifully illustrating that, that she did it so much better than me, that you use the physical to invite people to play in a way that if you use words, they would be utterly meaningless. But her gestures invite you in. And you're when you're leading a really complex sports team into a really competitive situation. You must be look, you must be listening to the words, but mostly you're watching the bodies.

Absolutely. And even your own. I mean, if you think, you know, there's a book called Blink. And you and I'm sure, you know, well, but within that first blink of an eye, we already decided what someone is. And I think it's something about 90% of the time we write, and that's by our eyes by how we see someone by the physical, how much their hand gestures, yeah, and then we also will then judge in a quick instant, Is this person a threat or a danger. And some of the research that talks about how you can really in your physical people look for warmth, to judge, whether they'll trust you or competency. So even in that even in how you present your walkthrough, and I know that's a gift I have is this in my physical I can make people feel warm and feel people at home at home. And then other people go to strength around being able to in that physical show that I've got this and we can get this lovely combination of warmth and strength. And you're very tall I am Yeah, so I know that that's a big part of my am. But there's an important component of that because I have a disability. And so the physical for me, yes, I've been an athlete, but the physical side of, of having a disability, you know, my lens has been on for a long time around. Just understanding that we all have we're all different physically, yes, we have this relationship with our own physicality and our own energy and our own movement and what will nourish and energise us, but then there's that point of what people see. And that blink of an eye what they see and when you do for me, fortunately, I don't even know when to use that when I have a disability that's hidden. So I've been able to be hidden, but you will, when you know what to look for you can see it, yep. But I can walk down the street. And I can, I can walk without people noticing that I have a difference. And then it's so to have this understanding of I have a disability people can't see it. I've always looked at my own body. And the gift of having cerebral palsy as my left side is my able side. So I have to understand what it feels like to be able, what a gift. And then I go to my right side, which has my cerebral palsy where things don't work. I can't do certain things on my right side. And what a gift that is, now I can I have this understanding when people can't do things or things? Do people do things in a different way?

Have you always regarded it as that? Or is that something you've grown into understanding? I

wrote a letter to myself one day on a leadership programme, what do I need to tell myself. And this was what I wrote, and I had tears in my eyes I, it was this moment, it would have been about 20 years ago, where I went What a gift I'd been born in a body that understands both understands both lifts both levers both. If I can't do something, I physically can't kill my toes, I cannot Kill my toes, and I never will. But I can do it so easily on my left side, and it's too easy. And then I come to my right side, and I cannot do it. And that fascinates me in this one body, how easy something can be and how hard something can be. And now I realise what a strength that isn't leadership, to be able to have, I suppose maybe it's the empathy. It's the strength and warmth of being able to, to be able to understand that you can have both. And in its in that beauty. And we've talked about this this week, about it's that infinity of that, as women we can be incredibly warm and loving. And then the other side of that infinity sign is that we need to be direct and strong. And so it's this, knowing when to step into both. And knowing that you can have a mix of fat. And that's what I have learned within my own gift of, of having a physical disability.

How's the how's that played out in a team that you've led? And had how if I spoke to that team, how would they say you were different as a leader?

It's for me, it's not having all the answers for me, it's me knowing that there is a lot more going on for people than what people say. That's a big one isn't a big one a big one because as it as a Paralympian people have looked at me. And I've been experimenting this ever since I decided to go down that path in 1995. And they look at me and they I'm not, it's getting better. But I'm not the image of what Paralympian looks like. And they're confused. And they'll look at me and go, ah, but you're strong and you're tall and your feet and you know, whatever else they want to say to that, but they don't know what the story is underneath. And when I'm able to share and I do like when

do you think sometimes they're actually not interested in the story underneath? I

feel sometimes.

I feel I mean, I shouldn't say this, but there have been some moments this week, where I think other agendas have somehow Yeah.

Yeah. That's people's blind spots. I see that because if, if some people have the gift of being able to realise that that would help advance their, their leadership. So I know for me, that is my absolute strength is that understanding and being so even, even at my last leadership trip at Birmingham, Commonwealth Games, and I, every team I met, even the team that I was leading, I made sure there was a moment for them to understand my essence and actually vocalise my essence. And a part of that, that vulnerability of saying, This is my physical, you know, I'm different. And, and that's, that's what makes me and, and by doing that enabled others to share their essence. And when you can then connect on this essence together. Then you can go through then you get A times

10 You get the infinity symbol. salutely Absolutely, yeah. flowing.

Yeah. And I know this because people look at me all the time. And I can feel this energy exchange, I can feel them checking me out. And when you walk into a room and you tell people you're a Paralympian and they can't see it, or the image of Paralympic athlete is not me and they're there. struggling, I can see I feel like I've had 25 years of people doing this to me,

but maybe other people who are disabled do it too.

Yeah. Yeah. We'll and we'll do and I will do it to other people and the ending. And for me, it's it's curiosity, I lead with curiosity, instead of difference. And for me, I look at people now this is one of my gifts from from this journey is I've learned to train my thinking instead of to look at the deficit model, the weakness model, the negative model. So I meet you, Julia, and I know my thinking will want to look at you and look for your weak spots, your threats, your dangers,

the bells are back, keep

going. And I know I can do this easily. I know this. But what I've learned from this, is that through my journey, because of being different,

and being deeply aware of the physical Yes,

absolutely. I have developed strengths from that. So when I meet people now yes, people with disabilities that yes, people with this has been an example of this week, we've had so many different different people come together. I'm come from Curiosity, deep curiosity around I wonder what skills they've got because of their difference. And that's hard to do. It's hard because our brain wants to do the opposite. And even medical models of of conditions and disabilities that Jonas have always been focused on the medical deficits. You've been diagnosed with this What have you got less of? What doesn't work? But when you flip it what what have I got because of because of not despite of that has taught me so much about then being able to lead and understanding others

will follow you anywhere. I would love always. Thank you, Katrina. Your body is your barometer firmly stuck in my brain. As I was listening to you and to the bells. I thought about an interview we did with Sarah, I think three or four weeks ago now. After the completion of the expedition were Sarah users wonderful words. She said, you know, up to now I've always lead from my head up. Listening to you, Katrina, I think I have so much in common with Sarah, I think I too, mostly lead with my head up. From my head up, I hope with my head up too, but from my head up. And I think in the future, I would like to be more like you, Katrina. I've, I've been thinking a lot of the moments when my body was send me sending me warning signs, ones that I should have listened to and actually ones that sometimes I should have ignored the the ones I listened to, were often about exhaustion. I believe deeply that leaders who who are too tired, it's almost impossible to inspire anybody if you're utterly exhausted. And certainly, it's impossible to see things clearly if you're utterly exhausted. Now, there are moments when you just have to cope with the exhaustion. But I think I have definitely ignored my body shouting, we are exhausted and kept going when I shouldn't. And confuse things when they needed to be made more simple. And definitely uninspired. People have probably even instilled a level of fear and disquiet in them. So listening to the exhaustion messages coming from my body, my my father told me that he would teach me one of the greatest skills of all leaders. I remember I was about eight at the time, and he called it daylight sleeping practice. And it's true that sometimes I do actually listen to my body when it shuts exhaustion. And I've often walked out of my office or walked into my office, and people have said, Where you going and I say to sleep, and thanks to my father, I could lay on the floor or on the table, best on the chair and fall asleep for 15 minutes, which made an enormous difference to me. I've known that has been a wonderful skill he taught me it was definitely a fantastic Take skill when I was a mother of small babies, and it remains a fantastic skill as a leader. But I can also think of moments when my body was, was sort of giving me the wrong signals to be honest, you know, some, my worst moments of leadership was are when my sort of body is sort of itching with fury, sometimes and energy and what would the word be with, with offence sometimes, and it's sort of itchy, and it's sort of, I can feel it, forcing me up to loudly and forcibly make a point that I probably should have ignored my body and just calm down and told my body to shut up or to lay low for a minute, till I was in a better place to make the point that I was going to make. I'm sure Katrina would tell me that I'm misunderstanding her body messages. Anyhow. I also think that Katrina's analogy of, of living in two worlds, in her case, the right hand side and the left hand side of her body, and seeing that, as not as the weakness of one, and, and that giving her a vantage point in understanding things, and I, I certainly believe there are many occasions when you are between two worlds, you can see things more clearly and move more quickly without anybody, often noticing you. So sometimes I love having no power, and merely being an advantage point, and being able to see and to connect things. So that turn to make 10 or 12, or 15, or 20, rather than the rather miserable one that it often does. This, this vantage point of seeing two worlds, I think was beautiful. But mostly Katrina's plea to us all that we have to both know our essence, but also vocalise our essence, because when you vocalise your essence, it allows other people to vocalise the essence. And then you can connect in a much more significant way. And the connection is not just a thread, it becomes an infinity symbol, not just a line, but an infinity symbol, with energy going constantly in both directions. That is an analogy I find very compelling. So thank you so so much, Katrina. I hope you've enjoyed this episode. Lots of love till next week.

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