In this episode, Darren welcomes Natalia, a talented artist and lifestyle entrepreneur. Founder of Natalka Design, a global communications agency helping clients with visual strategy and event visualisation, Doodeledo and seasoned TEDx speaker, Natalia is a creative force to be reckoned with.

The main discussion points include the significance of ongoing communication and receptiveness to others' perspectives. Both Darren and Natalia express the importance of continuously talking and listening to people's suggestions and needs, noting that by actively engaging with others and considering their suggestions, valuable insights into what people truly want can be gained.

Natalia shares her own experience of changing her approach to conversations, being more gentle and careful in her communication. She emphasises the importance of continuing the conversation and not hiding away, even when faced with challenging circumstances. At a time when virtual meetings like Zoom were initially embraced, Natalia acknowledged the phenomenon of "Zoom fatigue" and understood that not everyone may have wanted to engage in conversations. However, her perseverance and self reflection during a difficult time explains how she was able to make the best of a bad situation and thrive.

This episode also relays the story of how Darren and Natalia met, in quite unlikely circumstances, which truly exemplifies that conversations and connections with others should never be underestimated. Natalia expresses gratitude for the opportunity to be listened to and honours that key moment when she first met Darren, who at the time sat outside of her usual circle.

Natalia further emphasises the idea of being authentic and real. An admirable quality when delving into the honest truths about the highs and lows, challenges, and difficulties she and Darren have faced in running their own business. The discussion extends beyond just business and applies to life as a whole.

In addition, the episode emphasises the importance of staying true to one's core and showcasing it to the world. It serves as a reminder not to sit back and hide one's talents or passions, but instead, to share them with others.

The episode also touches on the importance of finding connections and themes within one's own experiences. Reflecting on their own experiences of themes such as resilience, Darren and Natalia find personal stories that have resonated or meant something quite significant to each of them during their friendship.

Overall, the episode highlights the importance of approaching conversations with care and understanding, especially during difficult times. It encourages maintaining connections and being mindful of the challenges others may be facing. It also emphasises the potential impact of conversations and the value of listening to others' life stories, a core belief held at MOE.

This episode is brought to you in loving memory of Darren Robson, without whom, none of this would be possible.

Connect with Natalia:

Stay up to date with Natalia's next steps by following Natalka Design on Instagram: @natalkadesign

If you feel like you'd like to share your thoughts, please find us on Instagram or Linkedin. If you've done one of our courses and would like to be a guest on one of our podcasts please contact: info@moefoundation.com

Mentioned in this episode:

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Transcript: Darren Natalia Podcast

00:00 DARREN: Okay. So, welcome everyone. It's Darren here and I'm really, really pleased that today on the MOE Podventure, we have the wonderful Natalia.

00:11 NATALIA: Natalia, welcome to the MOE Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

00:17 DARREN: I'm so excited. I'm really looking forward to this one. So now it's really funny. We were just having a quick chat before we sort of put this on live and it's so funny because, you know, I wrote down on here the original MOE Mentee. So I kind of before we get into that and we get into the kind of gangster that is Natalia, let's let's kind of find out about you. So first off, who are you, Nat?

00:38 NATALIA: Who am I? I'm just a curious person wandering around this world trying to figure out some things. I'm just a simple, I think, curious person that was given this skill, I guess, where I can in the same time listen to people make something out of it and produce a visual interpretation of that. So I guess that skill kind of led me to a conversation with you.

01:04 DARREN: Yeah, in the shortest way. Yeah. And so many more levels. That's just a tiny part of the wonderful onion I've got at the moment. So I'm going to go with the onion metaphor. There's so many levels to you. It's amazing. So obviously, you're in London now. We're in the UK. But that's not where you began life.

01:22 NATALIA: So where were you born? I was born in Poland. What was it like growing up? Small town, you know, nothing really going on. Post-communist town where everything is really much concrete and some greenery. And that's kind of what you grow up with, which I always felt like, oh, what a shame. Like, what if I grew up in like Paris or something or New York? And I would have all this like visual stimulus since I'm young. But on the other hand, I think the gift that these places get give you is the simplicity and having to come up with stuff and having to be very creative to come up even with your play and with the way you interact with your friends and where you go. And suddenly this boring block becomes your castle and you spend five hours running around coming up with stuff. So I think, yes, very much simple upbringing, very much in a small flat in Poland, which I think made my brain want to create as much as possible. I'm one of those people that, for example, always drew, always came up with stuff, always recorded myself, always danced, always sang, always run around that kind of thing. Because when there's nothing really around you, you just need to make stuff up, I guess.

02:35 DARREN: Well, absolutely. You know, I completely agree and agree. And imagination and imagineers and creating that in a world and landscape is so essential. And as we know, everyone's got imagination and people forget that and creativity. People forget that. And we'll get into some of the things that you're doing around that. So there's so many layers to our relationship and friendship and everything that it is. And it's lots of things. One of the things that I've always known about us is the love we have for our mums. So, you know, your mum, just just for a second, just sort of share how important your mum is to you.

03:09 NATALIA: Well, she's been the mum and the dad. She's been the kind of person that always believed in me no matter what. And, you know, she's been the person that if I wanted to try something, she would do everything she can to make that happen. And again, I grew up in a place where, you know, now if I look at young people, if there was an amazing dance school, I would be there. But there was nothing like that. So my mum just always was trying to cater to any of my silly ideas or buy me the crayons or buy me the papers or try to bias the first computer or whatever. In that way, she was always there. But more than that, she was just always a very supportive human. And she had a lot on her back. But we are both me and my brother very grateful that we turned out, hopefully, to pretty decent people who are, you know, trying to do pretty, hopefully valuable things and share our skills with the world. So I'm just very grateful that I have her.

04:05 DARREN: Yeah. And it's no family so important. You always talk to me about you love being an aunt and your brother is so important to you as well. So it's great that you gave him a mention there as well. So do you get do you get to see them much or is it all virtual at the moment? Have you managed to get home at all recently?

04:19 NATALIA: Yes, we're in touch. Virtual. Thank God for that. My brother's just had a third baby. Don't know how he does. So there's even more reasons to go and see them. So very much soon, I'm sure I'll be packing up and going on that plane. But yeah, we're all still in touch and everyone's great. So thank you. Yeah, we're good.

04:37 DARREN: No, fantastic. That's fantastic. Right. So then school and then university. So I know you went to university. So where did you go to, you know, what was school life like?

04:46 NATALIA: And then where did you go to university? School in my hometown, very much simple, nothing crazy. And I always struggle with like, oh, there's not enough subjects that I want to do. Like it was very, you know, like this and this and geography and biology and stuff. And I appreciated learning these things. But I was like, whilst I was like learning all the rivers in Poland, I was like, but where's art? Where's music? Where's this? Where's that? Where's the art animation? You know, I was always a bit like feeling like there's not enough for my brain. And I need more. I need more to kind of, you know, kind of, I don't know, learn from it. Then studies, I went to Wrocław, if anyone's familiar, if you've ever been. Very nice city in Poland, southwest. One of those bigger ones. Lots of students. Very great energy. I studied languages. I studied. I could become a teacher of English to foreigners. And that led me to MA studies in London, in translation, bilingual translation interpretation, which means that I could sit in Brussels with a mic. I guess that would be the dream. And translate people in real time or interpret their conversations. And that's that's kind of where where it led me. And purely I picked languages because there was nothing I could do with art that would practically give me a job. So the nuance in Poland was always like, oh, don't go to art school, because what are you going to do afterwards? You're going to just like, what, sell your paintings somewhere and become a non earning person. And I loved always art, but I was also very pragmatic and practical. So language was another thing that I really loved. And English was coming to me very easily. I studied for many years. So I was like, OK, let's go the language way. We'll see where that takes me.

06:29 DARREN: Yeah, it's really interesting, because obviously Mirka, my wife is Slovak, and it's so she took the same path as you for the very same reasons. It was like that was the thing. So it's really interesting what gets shared in the schooling systems, you know, in those regions around. That's a really important job. And it's seen as a really high status job as well to be in Brussels as a linguist and a translator. And it's such a skill. I mean, such an incredible skill and talent to have. So at that point, you are you whilst you're doing all this, you know, how is your fervent, artistic, creative, imaginative mind? How is that playing out in your life? So you still are you doing all your doodles? What are you doing about cartoons and art? How is that playing into your life while you're while you're studying this MA and your degree?

07:12 NATALIA: So doodles and drawing and cartoons and making anything with art was always there since I was a kid, since I remember. So it's one of those things where someone says, Oh, since I'm two, I sang well, since I'm two, I drew. So so it was my is it was my safe place. It was my happy place. You name it. It was giving me all the things that I needed to. So it was making me kind of go into this different world. And yeah, I was always creating Disney, Japanese anime, cartoons, looney tunes, you name it. I was just in awe. My biggest dream was always, you know, if I could ever work for Disney, that would like change my life. I still do. If anyone is from Disney, please call me. But yeah, but yes, it was it was just a way for me to just be me, I guess, and just escape into my own world. And my mom always said, like, give her paper and pen and she's happy. And it was that simple. I just would copy for hours, draw for hours. And whilst I was going through schools and everything, there was always somewhere there, but it was it was there. It wasn't anything that I thought of. Seriously, I wanted to study it. But again, there was nothing like character animation or something specific that I could do. It was nothing like that. So it was there as a hobby, as a as a art form. I did feel like kids books, illustrations when I was studying in Poland. I was paid, I think, oh, my God, doesn't even matter how much I was paid. Like nothing. But I was the happiest person when I did that, because it was first time when in like a professional manner, someone wanted my art, my skill from me other than that what I'm studying. So that was very exciting. And but that's it. It was always on the back burner, always somewhere there, you know, as a hobby.

08:56 DARREN: Yeah, no, it's fantastic. And we share the absolute love of Disney. The fundamental difference is you can draw and I can squiggle, but not draw like you. I mean, it's amazing. And we'll get to that story. We'll get to that, you know, when we met and one of the things that happened for me. And I really want to hear your side of that, because we've never really gone into depth like we are today. But I love Disney. And here's a here's a really ridiculous thing. Right. So, you know, I use the little D, you know, as that's my you know, that's how I sort of sign off. So if you look at the Disney signature, the new one, it's got a little D in it. So there you go. So I always think, oh, look, you see, like, that's me trying to be an imagineer. You know, it's like even Disney is saying, go and be it. I'm only kidding. But it just it's so funny what the creative mind can kind of spot. But I love Disney. Absolutely love it. So hopefully, have you never worked with Disney in your in your capacity,

09:42 NATALIA: in all the things that you've done? Yes, no, they were in the room, which I was just the happiest person. They were in the room when we were working with Google. They were the clients in the same room. I was in Hammersmith in their offices and I was having the best time of my life.

09:57 DARREN: But never. Well, we're going to get we're going to deep dive in all the wonderful organizations that you've worked with, including, you know, prime ministers as well, which is just amazing now. I can't wait to get into that side of the story. So let's let's take it back. So you you've left Poland. You've come and done an M.A. in London. Yeah.

10:13 NATALIA: So what university was that? University of Westminster in London.

10:18 DARREN: Simple. And what and what was it? What was it or was there something that said, I want to go to London? Or did you just pick a map and go, I want to do this course?

10:26 NATALIA: No, I was completely there was no idea. I always had big dreams, but it was a it was a sheep factor effect. So my friends started talking about it at the end of the uni. And they were like, should we go to London? Like we should we could study in London. I didn't even it's so weird. There was no no one talked about it. No one offered it. There was no international kind of exchanges in my area. Nothing like that. So I was very much like, OK, I'll pass and I'll continue my life as a translator or something. I'll move somewhere. Should I move here? Should I move here? Don't know. I knew I don't want to stay in my hometown because there's really nothing to do. So my brain needed more. But it was a few friends talking about moving. And at the end, the funny story, everyone fell out for some reason. I don't even know what happened. Drama of young people. So I went on my own with two legs terrified, not knowing anyone, having a room and baremancy for 80 pounds a week or something set up with terrified my first. Yeah, so that was like.

11:44 NATALIA: You're spoken and written English. So I would think similar. I just had, I think, more American accent because at the school they were teaching us American accent and I picked it purely because I loved France. There was no other deeper thought to it. And I think after coming here and like talking to people for ages and people say can't rather they can't. Just it's like a Polish American English

12:24 NATALIA: So what happened then? Yeah, the finish uni. I was supposed to go home. I was supposed to go home. There was no plan. I just me being me. What do you do back in old days? You go on Gumtree, you research meetups, you research things that young people can do. I joined this free thing where you can like film people, interview people, meet new people. I went to all sorts of events and Twitter came up to the world. And, you know, I started going more to Old Street and Shortage, where all these cool startup people started hanging out on Fridays for free with a beer. And my curiosity was a bit like, what is this world of these people just catching up? Like nothing that I had an experience with that you can just go and ask someone for a coffee. And that doesn't have to mean anything. You can just talk to a very interesting person. And I was doing so much of that with my silly, creative brain that I was like, what can I do to stay here? I like it here. I want to stay here. I need to support myself. I need to get a job. And I got a job whilst I was studying because I wanted to support my mom paying for me staying there. And that was a big ask. So whilst I was already studying, I was teaching. So I became a teacher for special needs kids for also in regular schools. And I was teaching art on and off because it was kind of like through agencies, not a real school hiring me. So it was very confusing a bit and kind of last minute. So you could get a call in the morning and like, do you want to come for a week to the school? Or do you want to come for this morning at six a.m.? Someone would give you a call. It was it was so, so tiring in that manner. But then I got a job at school for like a year or something. So I was I was teaching through quite a few years and I could stay and just feed my curiosity.

14:07 DARREN: Hmm. And then and then so let's let's go to that moment where you and I sort of collided. And I think it was on Twitter, wasn't it? So so, yeah, tell me the story from your perspective, because we've never really talked it through like, you know, we know there was that moment and we know that that was that period. But, yeah, we've never discussed this. So this is I'm really looking forward to this. So, yeah. So what happened? So tell me, you know, bring it up to speed. Where what year is it and what happened from your perspective?

18:03 DARREN: So, yeah. So what was the yeah. So we're done. And what was the outcome of our conversation, you know, from your perspective?

18:11 NATALIA: My perspective was you were like all I can remember very strongly. You were you were saying things very, very clearly. You have a talent. You're wasting your time here. What is this job? And this is my number. Call me up. Make a website. I don't know what you need to do. Cards, whatever. You've got something here. Call me up. When you have these things like just sort yourself out, because this is like wasting your time, this job. So you were very like you were there was a lot of love, but there was a lot of like strict kind of like, what the hell are you doing? And it was almost like a wake up weird conversation. I need it. Although I never met you before. You're not my friend. You're not my family. Who are you? You know, too. So when you left, I remember I called my mom and I was like, Mom, I met this person like he's this businessman. And like he said, you know, he gave me his number like in some way. Of course, like it can sound so strange to him. But I just need there's something there. You were like this kick in the box, this invisible kick in the back. You didn't do anything, but you did so much. So that's my perspective. How I remember this. It was like a power hour for me. I went to that job and I was just like, I need to do this. Whatever that is, I need to do this. I have his number. I have his number.

19:29 DARREN: Well, I think it's interesting because it's interesting. Yeah, I mean, I remember it similar to that. And also, there's another fundamental bit for me that I want to bring out. So it's but the thing that so what happened for me was was absolutely right. You message me and I don't use Twitter. It's not a thing. And I do. It's so funny. I do get how some people cynical cynical minds would go, well, what's this? You know, dodgy, a young, young lady meeting a guy that she's never met. And but I just remember you, you, you know, sending me a message and I'm going, oh, yeah, love to meet you. Let's let's have a conversation. I was very much at that point in my life. MOE was just beginning. We'd just done the work with kids company. We just finished that piece of work, the pioneers, which was just an amazing period of time working with that fabulous charity. And I was just MOE was just launching and or about to be launched. And I just, you know, you just came into my orbit. And and I went, you know, love to meet you. Let's have breakfast. And what happened for me was that you were sitting there and you're telling me your story and it associates so much with my own personal stories for different reasons, even though we come from different places. And I sat there looking at your portfolio of work. And I was just like, I may because I used to just draw all the time in school and my teachers would tell me off and say, you're not listening. And I'm like, I'm really listening. Like, I'm using my imagination. I didn't know that's what I was doing. I was just I was just being and so I stopped drawing because I used to draw chads and all this other stuff. But I just sat there and saw you and what you were doing. And in my head at that time, MOE was really looking to how can we use education? And I just started joining DOTS. I'm like, oh, my God, like I could work with Natalia. Nat, you know, she could she could, you know, we could work so well together. And she's just incredible. And I just heard you in this shitty job with shitty people around you, not the people, but the environment. And I just, you know, I was like, this is this this can't happen. And I was looking at your work and she's got massive talent. And I just yeah, I just I suppose I was I really believed in you. I really saw that potential. I think that's the gift of a coach and a mentor and as parents. All people have got that sort of gift if you want it. And I absolutely fundamentally believed in your your gift. And I remember it slightly. I don't know if you remember it like this, but I remember it going, give up your job and we'll we'll we'll hack you like we will get you set up. And we don't know what it is, but we'll get you set up. And it was ridiculous. Like we'd had an hour together, like we didn't know each other. But I just knew intuitively and I'm very intuitive with the way that I my best, I mean, intuition. And I just remember going, this will be good. This will be good. Absolutely amazing for you. But it's also it will prove what I believe that if you believe in people, they can they can kind of surprise you. And you have done nothing but constantly surprise, not surprise, because I always believed in you, but you just what you what you've built. So absolute pivotal moment. And, you know, you then just you left that meeting. It's so lovely to hear you rang your mum. And I'm sure she was going, who the hell is this guy? And I remember I met her a couple of years ago and she's amazing. And it was so lovely to finally meet her. So you you you go out, you leave that job and you get your business cards and they tell the story. What's happened? Where have you taken it to now? We don't have to dwell on that story too much. We've talked about that moment. It was an amazing moment. You know, it's we're friends for life. You know, it's like, you know, love what you're doing. But yeah, it's amazing what can happen in just an hour. You know, there was so much for me in that, not just for you. That's the thing to say is like this wasn't just about me being kind. It was like I saw your potential. And one of the first projects we did was that we did the MOE kids book. A to Z. You remember, like I think two people bought it. But, you know, that that was that was that was where I was learning about MOE Foundation and what the potential of MOE could be with young people and people. And it was like you were helping me to prove that actually you can believe in people like genuinely, like, you know, that's why MOE's gone on to believe and support so many people, because you were one of those critical people in my life. As I was exploring this as the founder and as the kind of creative entrepreneur, because I didn't know if I was mad. Like, I often think I'm mad. But I mean, I didn't know how mad I was. Does that make sense? And if there was any if it was reasonable to believe in believing that you can help people like that, does that make sense? So it wasn't just I'm there to help you. I'm not that, you know, I am that nice person, but I'm also not that nice person in the sense of there was so much in it for me that I probably didn't know. And it's only when you look backwards, like nine years on, I can reflect on it and go, what was going on in that moment? Like, how why did I do that? And how did we do that? And how did she do that? And like, it was just amazing coming together a world amazing.

24:06 NATALIA: I think like I don't want to go too deep because I'll start crying or something, because I spoke about this moment so many times and I and I will always speak about it, because, as you say, it's important to speak about people believing in people like you coming to see me all the way from different part of London, someone you never met younger than you in some shitty job, trying to say something to you with your world being busy with your family, with your work like again, what a gift. I think we like for me, what I'm learning that your behavior taught me even more to give that behavior. It's kind of like you just you just give what you got. You know what I mean? So what I'm learning from me to kind of share that energy and knowledge with other people. And, you know, I love to mentor now other people and I love to help where I can and whatever. But I think it's very important to mention I like to be very practical about the story because I didn't have any savings with my shitty job. You came as a person to say, yes, this is my number. Let's figure this out. But you also said, I'm going to support you for six months financially, where I was like, what the hell? Who says that? We agreed on a rate and you gave me a challenge. You said for six months, I'm going to be kicking your ass. I'm going to be seeing you often, talking to you often. This is my office. This is where I want to see you or wherever we are in London. Number one, you go off and show your work because, damn it, it's good. And you need to do this more and speak to just more people. And you need to be very open that this is what I do now. You need to believe that this is what you do now. You're not a teacher. You're not this. You're not that. And you are very specific. If you earn something in that month, we minus that in what we are investing in you so that you earn that well done. If it's a really bad month for six months, I'm supporting you. And I always say that because for so many people, like I couldn't do that with my state of mind and being on my own in London, having no savings to just leave a job. It sounds amazing and movie like and inspiring and like I would love to do that. But there's a rent to pay. It's an expensive city. Let's be honest, right? I'm young. There's nothing coming at me for me from someone. I have no support in that way. I have the most loving family. But it was very clear if you want to stay in London, go to sort yourself. And that's what I always was. So when you came with that, let's call it helping starting hand, I was I was like, I was in shock when like first month came and your lovely assistant, you know, literally emailed me and everything. And she was like, Natalia, yes. So this is for this month and all that. Please let us know how it's going. I'm like, what the hell in the world? We didn't sign anything. We didn't. I need to say that part because I think it's very, very important not to miss that, that, yes, you believed in me as a person. You we were there to in a weird, magical, cosmic way, wanting to help me in the right moment because it was right moment for you. But also you supported my start. That is something that I couldn't sign up for. I couldn't find. I couldn't. I couldn't get that was that was the biggest inspiration for me and like the biggest energy I could get because, oh, my God, how much energy that gave me to go out there and prove myself and to myself, to you, to everyone that I can do this thing, whatever this thing is, I'll figure it out. Yeah. So I think it's a very important thing to mention, because for the six months you were mentoring me intensely, you were kicking my butt, as I call it, because that's the style I really like, where you give a lot of love, but you're also very strict in the way that. You know, you already know what you need to do. And if I was anywhere going a bit whiny about things and being like, oh, but no one's replying, but this, but that you would literally get up on your food and be like, come back when you're more positive, because like you did that to me once and I was like, no, you didn't. But I have so much to say still. And that was what a dick, what a dick I can be at times playfully. That was that was like a pivot moment. That was such a weird positive slap on my face where I'm always very positive. I'm always very, you know, I'm going to do it, but I'm a human as well. So at some point I was a bit like there were moments where I was not believing in myself, struggling, something was not connecting. I was a bit blue. So when I came with that sort of attitude, you were like, come back when you're more positive, let's talk about it. And then in two days later, I'm like, I figured it out. And again, you didn't do anything, but you did so much, you know? So that's something to me that's profound.

28:44 DARREN: So I just want to unpack that slightly just so any young people listening. I think the first thing to say is that, you know, I call it the fallacy of hierarchy is that, you know, not we were the same, we're all humans are the same in my mind. There is no hierarchy. And I get the power plays and everything else. But I think that's really important to say. So the first message to any young people is if there's someone that you you are looking up to, well, first off, why are you looking up to them and understand that? But also, you know, if they haven't got the humility to actually respond to you, then they're not the nice person that you might think or they might be too busy. It's quite interesting. You know, I really think that's important. But, you know, ask them. That's the bottom line is what I wanted to get across is ask. If you don't ask, you'll never get. So I think that's important. Second thing, I think it's really important. Yeah, you've got to get your safety net right. And that's what we got your safety net. But the other things we did was we got your psychological safety net right as well. And we believed in you and you've got you to believe in yourself and got you into that optimistic space and that creative space. And I think that's really but really interesting listening to you there is your mindset shifted. You started to really believe in yourself and in your vision. And that that for me is like that's that's the critical moment, because the thing we always say and what you're talking to is is is what I call him and what I call in my life is tough love. So it's loving, but it's tough. It's like, no, come on, you can do this. Like we I'm holding the highest beliefs in who you are and what you can achieve in this world. And I'm not going to kind of back down from that. I'm not lowering my standards for you. And I'm having this debate with my 14 year old at the moment because she's saying to her mom and her stepmom and her family, oh, dad's holding these really high standards for me. He's expecting me to get A's and everything else. And I'm like, too damn right. I'm holding you to high standards, darling, because, you know, you've got that potential and like all kids have got that potential. And I'm going to hold that standard for you until you're holding it. And guess what? She's starting to get A's. And it's just amazing. It's amazing. Like when we believe in people more than they believe in themselves, eventually they start believing in themselves and they don't need you anymore in that sense. They don't they, you know, they're off and they're out there doing it like you're doing it, supporting others, which is incredible. So I think there's a lot in what you've just shared around. Your whole mindset shifted, like shifted. And I think the more that there was the support and the more you could trust that support. So Tracy emailing you and going, here we go. That must have been like, yeah, I can get it because because I do know, like anyone you would have gone, is this for real? Like, is this person? Yeah. And yeah, no. And trust me, if I could do this for more and more people, I would, you know. But I didn't want to go down that sort of accelerator route. MOE doesn't have unlimited funds. I certainly don't have unlimited funds. So and also, I quite like the hack. And I think, again, the lesson for me was it was a time based agreement. There was no contract, never will be. It was a kind of person to person agreement. And you nailed it. Like you, you really got it. You really got it. So can you still remember what that first six months was like?

31:37 NATALIA: I mean, intense, amazing and challenging. But I was so excited always to speak to and the funny thing, the psychological twist here is, yes, you promised a monthly pay if I don't do well, but the twist was I wanted to beat them. So, yes, you know, depending on the month, you know, things happen. Things don't happen. I was actively doing things. That's why I had this little, you know, whiny moment and then went up, like probably anyone else. But it was a very interesting twist where I saw that actually I'm doing well. And like it was like a game against what we promised. So I wanted to beat that, maybe just because the type of person I am or whatever. But sometimes, of course, things worked against me. There was no one that was interested, whatever. But even if a 200 pound came in from my, let's say, you know, energy from my work, I was the happiest person. So it was just that this fast paced, intense, almost. I don't know how to call it. But for me, it's like you set me up for my next chapters of life. Literally, I'll always whenever I'm a bit lost or whenever something's challenging or whatever, I'll always go back to that time, meaning I'll come back to the things you told me. I'll come back to the things you taught me. I'll come back to our conversations, the good ones, the bad ones, the whatever. It's just such an important. The most important thing about it was that someone believed in me. That's outside of my family, because, you know, hopefully we have families where at least one person cares about us or friends. So that was very strange that out of my circle, someone literally so much more even than I could see and was, as you said, once someone does it to you actively, intensely, you know, like it's like you're like, yeah, I'm that I am that like I am that. And then like it changes. Like, am I that I I'm freaking that, you know, and not to become ok or anything like that, but just to become hi, I'm Natalia. I visualize things. I'm an illustrator. I'm a designer, my consultant. I'm a strategist. You name it. It grew in my confidence with time, of course, the things that I can say about myself. But I always come back to that time that it was, oh, it was the most kind of, you know, it set me up for the type of person I am. Like, you know, we always talk about it, even if if things go down and things will go down, that's the time to reflect, to think, to be active, to get in touch, to work. When the things go up and everything, of course, manage them and do them. And but never lose that sort of, you know, always work on that flow. Right. Like when it's low, you need to do the work when it's up. You need to maintain that work. And it's just always been that so many lessons in this short time that I wish we had everything filmed almost, you know.

34:23 DARREN: I think it's really interesting, because quite often with things about the sort of entrepreneurial creative journey is that people talk about the business side of it. What they don't talk about is the kind of psychological and emotional and the mental journey we have to go on, you know, because it is as creatives. Anyway, every creative I've ever met and I'm a creative, different type of creative or people that are imaginative. And again, I think everyone is imaginative, but there is a real rollercoaster in people's lives and it is a rollercoaster running your own business to the bits you're saying that the highs of my God, people really believe in this and buying into it and want to be part of it to. Oh, I've just lost a gig for some reason and I can't work out why. And I need to kind of reflect on it and kind of understand that. And it's now it's learning how you navigate through that that rollercoaster and then also set yourself up for success. And we can get into some of those fundamentals in a minute around the sort of cash cow and making sure that you put money away and save and all those. Because I think they're really important lessons, you know, that I've learned in my own entrepreneurial journey, you know, just being through Covid. And it's had very little impact on me because of the fact that I live very humbly. I save my money and I invest my money. And then it's like when the bad times come, like my family are protected. And I think that's what I always want any entrepreneur to do, because the bad times will come, you know, we've just gone through the second economic crisis, you know, in the world, you know, maybe the third in the last 10 years. It's that cycle is only going to increase the volatility. I think that we're going to experience is only going to increase. But anyway, rather than philosophizing and about the economics, what I want to get into is let's let's get up to speed with where you are right now, because I think that is just for me, it's just phenomenal what you've done. And it is you that's done it. And I know you've got a team and a community, but you and you have made this happen. Like you have to own this. So tell us where, you know, 20, 21. We're recording this. What is it? March, April, 20, 21. It's just about turning to April, isn't it? Where is Natalia? You know, where is Natalka design and all the things that you say? When you look at your life design, which is something we've done, dreamboarding is something you've helped me with as well. You know, when you look at your life design, tell us where you are right now. You know, including your wonderful, wonderful flat home by the by the river.

36:35 NATALIA: Well, now that you say that, you know, like that's one of those little dreams not little dreams I underestimated. I always, always dreamt of living anywhere by the water, by a canal in London. And here I am. So, yeah, so there's so much to be grateful for right now. I'm 35. Natalka design is over nine years. So next year I'm doing a big party with humans. No masks. I hope you come. Because you've been named guest. But yeah, no, it's crazy. So Natalka design nine years, Doodly Doo follows it with seven years because it's the events doodling, you know, kind of experiences that I popped up after Natalka design. That's very much running side by side to it. I've got a small team. Yes, I'm very proud of it. I even hired someone through pandemic, which freaked me out. And I did it and it's working well. And I believed in that person. What a wonderful person. What a smart, smart guy. So I've got a small team. But since beginning of Natalka design, it's very still much. It was always remote. I always really enjoyed working remotely and being set up digitally. Yes, I had to go in person to meet people, to consult them, to work with them. But I always believed in working with any type of person with any skill. Of course, that my job allows me that. So I understand that not everyone can do that. But till now, our main animators in Venezuela, our, you know, designers in Berlin. Most of us are in London, around London. My comms person is in by the sea in England and so forth and so on. So, yes, it's it's a bit of a crazy one because, of course, pandemic hit. Yes, it killed off all our life experiences with clients. So all the events, all the internal sessions, you name it, because everyone, of course, had to lock themselves down and forget any events. That industry was hit massively. But thankfully, because how I've been set up for many years, we work on iPads, we work on computers, we work on work homes, we work on software. So we can still provide any visual kind of content and pieces of work from the comfort of our homes. So as much as pandemic hit a lot at the beginning, because no one knew what the hell was going to happen. Now, I see for many months where we're doing really well and we're coming back because people need to still engage their clients and people still need to have conversations and people need to share their stories and their messaging. So here we are still very much. And thank goodness I always believed in that remote set up because that really massively helped me. I never wanted a big, massive, shiny office for some reason. I never cared to take care of 20 people on one time because I knew I wouldn't be able to. So I just gradually very much step by step, step by step, make decisions. Sometimes it's wrong. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I go up. And that's just the journey. Like you say, it's you never know, but you just if you believe in it, you can kind of try and have that trajectory, have your savings and just step by step. I'm very much kind of, you know, a risk, but very calculated risk, if I may.

39:44 DARREN: Yeah, 100 percent. So I'm going to pick them off because I think there's also another part to you, which is TEDx that I want to bring up as well, right? Because it's just it's incredible what you've achieved with with with the support of that wonderful organization. But also that, you know, it's built a platform for you to share lots of different stories and insights. So first off, to bring it to life, let's talk through Natalka Design and and what it brings to the world and what it does and the portfolio of work that you do, the creative work you do. So that's part one of that. But then also, I want you to share the roster of, you know, organizations, corporates that you've you've worked with. You know, I saw that you just put out one of my favorite organizations, London Air Ambulance, you know, also in your work with Microsoft. And, you know, I just saw your visual about that. So you've just done something about London Air Ambulance, which I love. You know, Chief Exec Jonathan Jenkins, who's a good friend of Moe as well and comes in to speak at our dream factory. So that's why I was laughing when I could connect you to and you might already be connected. And but it was just funny. It was a funny little moment for me. So, yeah, the amazing clients. And it's also the other thing I want you to share is it's taken you on to TV back in your homeland and internationally as well. So there's three or four things there. So what does it do? Who does it do it for? And where has it taken you? Who? What? Where?

41:00 NATALIA: Who is it? So Natalka Design, basically, it's a company that does effective communication through visual storytelling. I finally nailed my line, Darren. Love it. That's all the work you do during pandemic when there's no calls. You think about what you actually do. The services are very clear at this moment. Branding and marketing all through visuals, internal comms and strategy, workshops and live events. They can be virtual. So we cover live events with visuals, the content of them. So it's very clear kind of we just help you engage with your message. And the funny thing is that since the beginning, actually, when one of our first projects, I joined you ages ago at Network Rail when you were working with these guys. Amazing team. And that was ages ago. And suddenly, yes, I found myself in this corporate land. And FTSE 100 businesses and all the tech giants. And, you know, it was it was surprising because I at the beginning, I thought. And with the biggest happiness in my heart, if there would be any individuals that want to work with me or maybe some SME or maybe a charity or anyone like that, I would be the happiest person. But suddenly the door, you know, was knocked by the biggest names because they actually are often the ones that struggle, especially internally, to make sense out of all their information and all their change management and all their strategies and plan on a page and values. And what does it mean? And so, so, yes, I was very surprised that since the beginning, it was quite very much known names knocking on the door. And that gave me also a lot of confidence that I'm into something here. There's something here, you know, that I can really help people do. So that's kind of what Natalka design is. It's very much a global brand.

42:47 DARREN: So you're being shy, so I'm not going to. But it's, you know, imagine all the big, big tech players, you know, all the big organizations. You just have to go and look on Natalka design. And it is just a smorgasbord of incredible brands and well-known brands that you have worked with. It's just phenomenal. Like it's just, yeah, I'm so proud of what you've done. And like, I get that, you know, I remember that network rail and a bunch of others and people like Catherine Tolpa has really helped you and other people that we know in our, in our sort of friendship community. That's what's been so beautiful is that you've come in, you've helped people that I know. And then you've helped other people and they go, oh, we love this. And then they go, oh, have you spoken to XYZ? You know, it's you've really built that wonderful brand where people just go, oh, you need to speak to Natalia because she's brilliant at this. And just to bring it to life. So some practical examples. So for instance, I'd have a conversation with you and you just dreamboard visually. We're sharing. So I have my dream board from you. So there you go as a person, I've mapped out my life dream and you've listened to that. And then you've gone, here you go. Does this what this look like? You know, and I had a bit of a tough time of it recently and I sent you a bit of a message, didn't I? And then you sent me a lovely visual guy. And this is what it sounds like where you are at the moment. I'm like, that's really lovely. Thank you. It's just brilliant. Then organizationally, like you come in and listen to teams and you capture what they're sharing. It's brilliant. Yeah. And Andy Griffiths, who's a Moe trustee and also runs a really brilliant organization called Investor Forum. You know, he's used you and he brings you in and he's like, he loves the work that you do. And then, you know, bigger organizations, I've seen you've built murials on entire walls of their values and their story and everything else. It's incredible. It's incredible. And then you did the VR work as well, didn't you? The virtual reality work as well, which I was like, that looks really sexy. So it's just layers on layers. So if you haven't haven't checked it out, we'll give you all the contacts to Natalia's website. The other thing that you got to do that I want you to tell the story is come on. Number 10 Downing Street, wasn't it? Or number 11 Downing Street? What happened?

44:42 NATALIA: What happened? That was ages ago. Like, what was his name? David Cameron? David? Because I always see James Cameron and then people laugh at me that it's not the director of Titanic. Yeah, sorry. So yes, David Cameron back in the day. So that was a job, of course, through a beautiful event for the highest people in the country and abroad. So the highest business moguls kind of invited to Prime Minister's Garden to make a speech to them, how they want to work with them, how they appreciate them, all that good stuff. So here I am, super chickened. I was like, I don't know, 14, 15, don't know now. It was ages ago. Terrified. But already working digitally with my little sad Samsung, I kind of a little tablet that I drew on. And that was a problem because I entered the room, the facility, the space, and people were like, oh, no, sorry, miss, you have to take these away. You can't really have any tech with you or any tools because of course we take them away for security and everything. And I was like, no, but that's my job. So that was fine. In the end, saw the speech. I basically visualized in real time the key moments of his speech. And that was, of course, all private, all for private use. You will never see the light of the day. But what a moment. What a moment in terms of, yes, all the amazing companies that we work with. That is always such an amazing thing to get an email from anyone. Like recently we are speaking to UK space agency. And that is like my dream. Like every time I speak to interesting people like that, I'm just like, wow, how can we help them? This is so interesting and different. But to get down in street, the most known address in UK and have the pleasure of being in the same space with such inspiring people in terms of the guests that he invited and his eloquent speech because it was a pretty eloquent speech. I was impressed. It is a moment. It is a moment. You can't lie from a person who never studied art, came from a different country. Let's call me an immigrant if we want. Well, you know, a person from a different place.

46:55 DARREN: I'm great. I think that's what she rephrased immigrant to, to I'm great.

46:59 NATALIA: There you go. Love it. Yeah. So anyways, but you know, there are a few layers to me that you could totally say, well, she's not going to be in that room ever. So that was the moment of like, wow, okay. Even prime minister believes in visualizing his messages. I love that. So there's something there, right?

47:17 DARREN: And it was definitely kind of a moment of like, wow, for me for my job. It's absolutely phenomenal. You know, it's, it's really interesting because I, again, I'm not trying to pick up, pick words, but I think the thing is about what you've done is it's not a job. It's what you love. It's your passion. It's your purpose in life. It's what gives you meaning. And you've, you've, you've found a way and I'm always aware of the kind of Vicky guy or the per finding purpose in life, you know, do what you love and then find a way that kind of earn money from it. And here we are. Here's someone who's absolutely living their life on purpose. It's just incredible. Lifeless orderly, as I would call it. You know, you really are living your life less ordinary. On your terms, which is just beautiful. And I also know that you're really proud that you got to go back home and go on. Wasn't it the one of the most famous or the biggest Polish kids programs? Was that, was that right?

48:08 NATALIA: Is it like a morning show? It's like think of it morning show. Sorry. Yeah.

48:12 DARREN: I thought it was a kids show. Sorry. Morning show. Sorry. I didn't want to. I didn't mean that Polish TV.

48:17 NATALIA: It's fine. Yeah. So, yeah, actually when there are three times, they kind of invite me the other year or something because they had like 10 year anniversary, something 15 year anniversary. So here I am even during the pandemic. It was okay to fly and everything. I visualized their morning show and their 15 years and all the hosts and everything. Now they printed it beautifully in the office and they still email me how everyone that comes in is such a conversation starter. What a lovely, you know, again, adventure. So, so yes, my mom becomes famous for a month in her hometown and everyone's happy. Oh, wow. Wow. That's fantastic. Yeah.

48:54 DARREN: That's brilliant. And then also, you know, where else around the world? Because the other thing that you were doing pre pandemic and I'm sure it will come back on was conferences, wasn't it? You go to conferences and you'd be that person capturing the conference on the side or, or even sitting in the, in the, on your tablet as well. Sometimes you weren't even stood up there, were you? So tell us that story. Like, tell us some of the international travel that you've had the opportunity to do.

49:16 NATALIA: Yeah. I mean, I hope it comes back. Let's see how it goes. But my job, my dream, my passion allowed me to fly many times to different countries, even including US and, you know, all around Europe. And we've been always, you know, working at sometimes 10 K or more conference sized people and just kind of visualizing all the talks and working on their social content and all that stuff. So it's just, it's crazy how, you know, it took me to places like New York, San Francisco, Miami, you know, most beautiful places in Europe, most beautiful venues as well. So sometimes it could be in UK, but we ended up in some freaking castle in the middle of Midlands or something. So just fascinating to see that world from that perspective, that each job, each project kind of can lead you to so many different adventures. You meet great people, you meet interesting people. Often when there's a client, there's also consultants, there's coaches, and you meet them during your evening after work. And it's just beautifully growing your network without even knowing through these experiences. So of course, yes, now everything's virtual, but let's see how we go. Let's see how we get on. I already see more movement in events and people are kind of more confident to start planning, you know, autumn events. So let's see how it goes. But yeah, a lot of flying, which again, wouldn't predict.

50:38 DARREN: Hello. Hello. Hello. So sorry, now, you know, some my technology just went down. So we're going to make this real, this podcast, and other people would try and hide away from that. But my, my, my internet just went down. So we sort of lost a bit of the flow there. So I'm sorry about that. So you were sharing the fact that absolutely like that's what we want to do on this one is like, actually, like what I love is the podcasts that are really, really, they're all brilliant. But the ones I really love is like, well, it's real. It's real. It's like, this is how it really goes. That's why I love the yeah, like Joe Rogan stuff. Like, you know, I mean, everyone would say him, but there's him, but there's others that, you know, I like the five live, I like all sorts of different stuff. But yeah, I want this to be really honest and real. So yeah, I've got fiber being connected in, in the next couple of weeks. And I can't wait because I've had enough of the internet going down because it keeps interrupting these wonderful conversations. So you were sharing, you know, you're getting to work with this incredible portfolio. You've got to work with the prime minister of the United Kingdom. You've traveled internationally. You've spoken on Polish TV, made your mama superstar forever. I'm sure in her community, like, you know, which is amazing. So, you know, where, when you look out to the future, what do you see for Natalka design? You know, you were just being actually, before we go into the visuals, actually, I do want to capture this. So we've just been through COVID, right? And we were sharing very early on that one of the things that we wanted to instill is some of those kind of really solid foundations about what it is to be a successful business owner and entrepreneur. Now, you know, unfortunately, COVID-19 would have rocked a lot of people and would thrown a load of people out, out of that boat, which is really shocking. And you seem to have fared pretty well through it. I know it's shocking. We've had a couple of conversations. I know it's been difficult at times, but so what are some of the fundamentals that you've put in place that meant that you've surfed through or got through this fairly unscathed?

52:35 NATALIA: Savings, number one. So I, you know, when it goes well, I don't just go and buy a boat, let's say. So I'm pretty smart with my money. I think that always helps. So knowing that I can cruise through these months without even any work. So that really helps. Still continuing to speak to people. The only problem was how you speak to people. So you can't no longer just like sent like, here's our latest offer or whatever. Not that I always spoke like that anyways, but you had to approach things so gently, so carefully. Everyone was going through something else. People had kids at home. People lost their jobs. People lost their loved ones. Whatever else was happening. Still continue the conversation. Don't just hide away, but take it as a it's time to catch up. It's just time to catch up whoever wants to catch up. And at the beginning, of course, everyone was quite open to Zooms and everything. Then the Zoom fatigue hit and no one wants to talk to anyone anymore, which I totally appreciate. But I continued the conversation. I reflected on the business. It actually allowed me to reflect on the business first time in nine years. And what that means, I always try to improve the website. I always try to improve the colors, whatever. But it was a deeper dive in. So I looked at our what are we? What are we here for? What are we doing? What is the purpose? Is this way of doing services the best way? Is this kind of a set up the best way or could it be better? So I literally hoovered through the business like no other. Another thing that really helped me and I'll always say, there's so many things out there. Please be open minded and research them. I joined two kind of programs for women in business during pandemic, which was all virtual. I met some lovely other women in business. I had some once a week, once every other week conversations with other people that just kept us positive in this whole space. So I did a Hatch program for women. I did a then JP Morgan program for women for three or so months. I had a mentor, amazing lady that still speaks to me. And it was really helpful to just talk through the practical stuff in the business, the things that are not great, the things that are great. What can I do better? All that stuff. So in short, I was completely still. It gave me the time to reflect, to improve, to hoover through, as I say, to clean up, to get rid of the things that I don't need. And I think that everyone went through a bit of a cleanse, even in a personal way, a business way. I at least felt like that where you kind of, how do I say that? You really look at with perspective at life and you're like, what are the things I really want to invite in my life? And what are the things I definitely don't need to invite anymore? In a personal manner, in a business manner, it was just all a collective cleanse. So it really helped me in that way to kind of like, when things hopefully start getting back up, I'll be a bit more equipped, a bit in a better place. I can speak about what I do in a more confident way. And that's kind of what's been happening. And I've been seeing a lot of, I guess, good results from it. So it was a gift of COVID. Let's say if I can say that, of course, the worst time for so many people, but it was a gift on those levels for myself.

55:54 DARREN: Yeah. Yeah, I really agree with you. I mean, I went through a really tough period through COVID, really struggled with it, like the sense of loss of liberty and identity. And the government suddenly stopping us from going out. I'm like, what the hell? I've never experienced this in my life. A government telling me what to do, whereas obviously yourself and Mirka, you post-communist world, there was a bit more understanding of that. You know, that sort of an organization or a group outside of you can tell you, can limit your freedom. I really struggled with it. And also MOE went through a really difficult period, took us to the wall almost financially. AC as well went through a really difficult period. And like you're saying, we really took a long hard look and we reflected. And we did a deep dive, as you were sharing. And we've come out better. MOE has never been more successful, never been more international. AC has never been more successful, has never been better financially. We've got an incredible team and a community. So I think, you know, I hear it called lots of different things, but one of the things is an existential crisis. So where you're challenging your sense of meaning and purpose in life. And then it's the existential opportunity. And it's funny, you know, that the ex-CEO of Network Rail and, you know, one of the people that we both know was Steve Featherstone. He used to say to us, never miss the opportunity in a crisis. And it sounds like you've taken that opportunity. You know, you've not missed that opportunity in this crisis.

57:23 NATALIA: In the beginning, I was going through that crisis a bit. You know, I discussed with my good friend, there's this, you know, what is this famous triangle of needs? You know, there's food, shelter. Oh, yes, Maslow's hierarchy. So, shelter, relationships, friendships, whatever. And then we go up, you know, kind of feeling needed, feeling like you have a purpose, feeling needed and all that stuff. And that tip of that triangle, first time since, I think, starting the business, which is a very weird reflection. I felt like this at the start of the business where, well, am I making any sense? Is there any value to what I do? Do people need me or is that like a gimmick? Is it nice to have or must have? What am I doing with the skill? And it really bounced back at the beginning of COVID, where I felt the same things, because, of course, the calls are not happening anymore. The emails are not happening. All your events are cancelled. No one's going to suddenly pick up a new project for you. Of course, a lot of businesses as well thrive, let's be honest. If you're a software or you were selling Angel, you were doing amazingly. But apart from it, lots of us experience that silence, right? That stillness. And I was struggling in the beginning, just talking to my friend, I was like, am I really needed? Or is that like, again, these questions pop up. And it was a very interesting space to be in where you're like, am I giving value? What am I doing? How is that helping people? And those questions really helped me to come back stronger with this total cleanse of the business in terms of, I know I'm giving value. I know I'm needed. But we realize we work when other people work. We are a service company. We are here to serve you, to help you to better your messaging, your information, your storytelling, but when you are active. I don't work when my clients are scared and not working or hiding. So it was a very interesting kind of period to kind of, you had to really think about what am I doing in my life? What is the value that I'm bringing? Am I bringing enough value? What is the bullshit? What is the no bullshit? And just like, it really helped to steer that. Because there's never been time to sit and reflect properly, let's be honest. If you're busy, you're busy, you don't reflect. So it's massively important to actually sit, you are told to sit down. In your little sad space and you're like, you know, you're literally thinking, which there was never time to just sit and think and it was mind boggling. It was really needed.

01:01:09 NATALIA: I don't know why I never liked these. I'm very much like, what is going on? You know, whenever we did these things, I was like, I don't see anything. So not to say that I don't dream big or I don't make plans or I don't hope, but I am one of those people that whenever at any stage of this whole experience with my business, you would ask me, what's your business plan? What is this? What's your next five years? I honestly would say, I don't know. And not to say that, like, I don't plan again or whatever or strategize. I strategize, but I'm very, how do I say that? I'm moldable. I flex a lot. I change in the quickest manner if I need to. Tomorrow, you might not see the services that I do today if I need to. So it's on, you know, I have my personal plans. I have my hopes. I have my dreams. I hope that Natalca Design as a business gets stronger, less reliable on me as a person. So I'm constantly working on that where I am the person, the face of the company, you name it, whatever you want to name it. I'm the creative lead. I'm the business developer. But I'm also more and more excited going through years to hand over amazing different parts of the business to other people who are better than me at that. Introducing the comms manager that I have now. Yes, still part-time because I'm learning everything step by step, as I said, but I like the step by step. So I see that he can take some of the load and he's so much better at this. Like, so why wouldn't I? That's amazing. So I'm investing in someone. They're learning something. I'm learning something. I'm totally at peace with not having a clue what I'm doing and being open to learn. And so I'm trying to be this person where more parts of my business can be handed to someone else and actively working on it. Of course, with the means that I have because I have no investment, nothing like that in plan. And my dreams are not really into again, having this 50 people office somewhere with a big investor and having to pay them off. That's not never been the dream, I guess, for me. The dream is to steadily, slowly, step by step, grow this business in a, how do I say that, pragmatic, let's call it way from person to person, try to introduce more people to the team, try to win the bigger projects, try to win the more retainer projects that can hold us for a year that I know what I can plan with my time and with my team. So I just, I would like to see in the future years that I can be choosing more of the projects I want to do, be the creative lead, but step aside where I need to and let other people thrive and run it and, and, you know, and create because it's very actually exciting to, you know, it's quite lonely, as we always say, as an entrepreneur, to just do everything by yourself and try to know everything by yourself is quite lonely. So now to have few other people to kind of bounce ideas back and forth and have their perspective on something or like, you know what, I would name this like this, I would write to them like this. I'm like, huh, I never thought about it. So it's very refreshing to get other people's perspective into the space. And I guess that's where I would like to see this. But if you ask me for the five, 10, like, forget it. No, I don't know.

01:07:11 NATALIA: It's like a spin off of Natalka Design. It's like, I call it like a mischievous child of Natalka Design. Natalka Design is the responsible corporate provider, the mother, the one that you can, you know, securely put your, you know, kind of projects into. And Doodly Doo is this kind of like sprung out of nowhere. And it's a project that allows me to, as much as Natalka Design is very much B2B, and we are providing and helping people within the companies. And a lot of it is internal and we'll never see the light of the day. B2C was very kind of something I really wanted to experience. And Doodly Doo allows me that because it's a, it's basically doodling events that started as, I build the website, like no joke, because you can build these things these days quickly on Squarespace. I built it in the evening. I doodled the logo, literally doodled and it stayed like that because it is what it is. And I was just needing, I needed some sort of external kind of experiences for people. I needed, and I heard so much of the clients and my peers and friends and everyone around me saying, oh, you're this amazing drawer and you know, the things that you do, but I can't draw for life. Like, what is that? I can't draw, I can't draw, I can't draw. I'm useless. What a negative self-talk everyone was giving me. And I was thinking about it. I'm like, yes, okay, that's true. I'm biased a bit here because I grew up drawing nonstop. It's such a skill as like, I call it the longest internship in my life. So I've got the 10,000 hours nailed. You know, it is something that builds so much that wake me up at 4 a.m. I will visualize your prime minister speech like that from my bed. But I was thinking about all the people that are curious, are interested in the world of doodling and drawing and sketching, but it's not something in their everyday life, but they would like to try. So I thought, okay, how about I can just bring some people together, throw some papers and pens at them, no agenda, no nothing, whatever, we'll figure it out, make some drawing games, timed games. All I want to do is for them to interact, have fun, connect, bond, get to know each other better. And suddenly after an hour, realize that they used a skill that they were always terrified of or scared of or thought of themselves less of that they're useless. And they will still, let's be honest, they will not become Disney animators after an hour of doodly-doo, but the body language change, the confidence that they get and the weird relief that they get from just experiencing using the right side of the brain in a bit different way for a second, rather than typing, computer, conversations, decks, whatever, brought so much life and spirit to them. So it started as physical events for public, then it went to 20 different countries, because people started knocking on my door and asking, can I start it in Toronto? Can I start it in New York? Can I start it in Zambia? Whatever. I'm like, I guess, so that's how it started as a public thing, but then I brought it very much quickly into the businesses and we've done doodly-doo, team building doodly-doo for the likes of Gap, Sony, Microsoft, you name it, and did some cool partnerships. So now it's all virtual, but it's working really well.

01:10:26 NATALIA: Of course, pandemic and everything, you know, killed it off. Not to say there was a regular thing. In some countries it was a regular, in some countries it was a pop-up. You know, there was one in here, one in there, two in there, depending on, of course, people's availability. But it had its own life, it had its own vibe. And now it just put it into virtual and it's almost weekly that we have a session with a company that wants to have fun for an hour, or we now do this well-being hour where we're putting some music on and you're doodling to it. So it's more relaxing kind of taking care of your mental state experience. So we're playing with different types of products. What can we do? How can doodling and that sort of behavior enhance your well-being, literally, because even if you have fun, that's your well-being at work. So trying to play with that a bit more. Yeah.

01:12:38 NATALIA: Social, putting it out there. So we did one, we filmed it, we put it on YouTube, we put it on social. We started talking about it on LinkedIn. I mean, all these tools, let's be honest, they help you massively these days. If I started on Talkatine before all these tools, it would be completely different experience. Me saying hi to you on Twitter. Maybe it would never happen in real life. Maybe I would never bump into you. Maybe it wouldn't be the same setup. So use the tools. There's so many these days in our podcast. I'm in London, you're in your beautiful house. We're still talking, right? So it just, we spread the word. And then suddenly, you know, you sent, you shared with people in art kind of spaces and groups and all that. And someone from Ireland suddenly was like, I would like to start it. I love doodling and I know a lot of people. I love networking, but it's a bit boring and it's just beer and ping pong. Can I start it? So kind of that's how it went that way. And it was just like a word of mouth situation. So yes, on the virtual, the same thing can happen. So that's the beautiful thing about the whole virtual world. It just opens up everything globally. So I can have a session with Japanese client. I can have a session with, you know, a New York client or London client. So it doesn't really matter. So that openness to global experience now is, I think it's magical. You should use it as much as you can if you can in your work.

01:16:08 NATALIA: Yeah, no, it's like the most wonderful. I think it's just I always learn like whenever I was doing those doodly-doos in person. So sometimes imagine the scene, you're doing the event, but you have to come two hours before you have to set it up. It's a lot of work, you know, like you don't even expect. It's not a moneymaker. It's just an experience you want to have with people. And of course, it grows your brand. So of course, there's my agenda there. But the main agenda is to kind of like, how can I make this amazing experience? And, you know, if someone gives me a tenner, it's not going to break my bank or anything. But it's just something to try and test. And, you know, always after these doodly-doos, you park, there's a mess. You're home after 10 p.m. in an empty tube. You're tired and all that. And you're like, and you're thinking like, why the hell do I do that? Let's think about this. Why do I need this part of my life? And quickly, I realize and I see in other people this energy, this like happiness going through my body. I spent some quality time with other people. I made them laugh. I made them connect. I made them enjoy themselves. I made them put away that bloody phone for a second. And seeing that as well, let's say that happened in Nairobi, where how is that even possible? I'll never probably be there. A bunch of lovely people connected, sat down, drew, laughed or whatever, because I can see from the videos and pictures. Apparently, even someone, it's still not checked correctly, but someone got married through meeting a doodly-doo. I mean, my life is like, where the hell are we met? So it's a tool. It's a vehicle that allowed me to touch and affect people beyond myself, beyond my room, beyond my city, beyond my existence, because they'll never meet me probably. So that's the interesting part of it. That like, wow, if I made one person smile somewhere in Nairobi, because maybe they had a shitty day and they went to doodly-doo and they have now like they met some friends, they're feeling better about themselves, they maybe start doodling after that. I mean, those reasons for my existence are then growing and that kind of like feeling needed and feeling valued and feeling like I'm giving something more to the world is coming back massively in like heaps. So that's why I kind of like make sure that they both exist.

01:20:45 NATALIA: You do one and then you suddenly kind of get invited. So that's one of the ways because it's such a global community and people start to know each other. And first of all, it wasn't my first one. So I did like two TEDx and then I decided to co-run a TEDx in London ages ago, like 2012, before even Natalko Design was anything. Again, another way of me trying to put myself out there and create something, right? Because it was all voluntary. You're not paid long hours. But through running TEDx ages ago, still to this day, I met my two best friends. What a gift. Other people that I know not as my closest friends, but just you meet the most amazing people because everyone's just there to give their energy, learn something, find amazing speakers, and just gift that to other people because they learn as they go. So, yeah, so first ones, I was basically invited. I think my first one, I don't remember, it was maybe in Switzerland, maybe in Poland, I'm not sure yet. But yeah, I traveled around, but you kind of like when you do one and you organized it, you're in that family and someone suddenly is like, Natalia, would you like to do one in France? We're doing one. Our students are running one. Could you, would you like to come? So it kind of like flows like that. And other times you just actively can suggest. So why not? Another kind of confidence kind of moment from you. So let's say you see one in Monaco and you mentioned that you've done one or two and you run it so you know the community, you love it and see if they want to consider you. So either you give the energy or the energy comes back to you again. So, you know, I've always been like that. If I see something interesting, as you say, I just ask. I don't expect anything to come back. Zero expectations. Totally fine if you don't even care who I am, but I'll always ask and see what happens. So that's always been me.

01:23:21 NATALIA: Yeah, I think that the themes always guide you. So let's say the theme will be ripples or the theme will be future. And I just sit there and I'm like, okay, this is me as a human. I can't really speak about finances, technology or anything, because I'm not going to pretend I'm not a person who knows this. There's amazing people out there, but I've got these skills. I've got this knowledge. I'm learning every year. I'm reflecting every year. So as you say, this is the theme. This is me now. This is what I've learned. How can I connect this? And of course it will be swimming around my world because I, again, I'm not going to pretend I'm someone who is not or speaking about stuff that I don't know. Because imagine that that would be funny. But I always try to find something within that theme. I always try to connect with it. So if the theme is resilience, okay, what is the story in my head about resilience? That really reflects to me and I can share with these people. So yeah, it's just kind of, I guess the themes really inspire you to what is the world now? What do I know? What can I share? What is useful?

01:25:22 NATALIA: Do you have time? Because I have all the time. I'm grateful for so many things. If we focus on our conversation, I'm grateful for the chance given to be listened to and to have a moment to speak to someone again from outside of completely my circle. And I think it just shows how never underestimate any conversation or any connection with a human you have, because you really never know. It can go somewhere, it doesn't have to go somewhere. It can come back to you in three years. You never know. Right. But just grateful for having that instilled belief that I can do things and then running with it. I'm grateful for trusting myself that I can do it. I'm grateful for all the opportunities every day and still am. I don't take anything for granted. So if this goes down tomorrow, still, who am I? What kind of person am I? What am I doing? Will I freak out? Will I still continue? Will I still continue to create and figure it out? I will, because the 10 years almost kind of taught me there's ups and downs. There'll be nice people in your life. There will be not nice people in your life. You will behave in this way. You will behave in that way. What a learning. But it's just a bag of feeling grateful for the people that I met, including yourself, for the chance being given, for being able to show my skills and share them with the world. Because that is a great feeling to have. For all the opportunities for living where I live, because I've always spoke about it. Like, I could not get the same opportunities in Poland, even observing it now. Yes, it's growing. It's becoming more creative. More people are coming into it. More technology is growing. It's really exciting to see. But my 10 years here, where's supposed to happen here? Like all the opportunities that London as a city, people, communities, everyone opened up for me. Everyone opened up for me. I couldn't ask for more. So there's a lot to be grateful about. But definitely the people that I met on the way, including yourself, because that's where the conversation, that's where the journey starts in a way.

01:29:40 NATALIA: However many you want, however few you want, what are your top tips? Just do it. And I need to sing it because, you know, like, and I have an amazing example, just like you said, not going to say his name, a dad of two, working in different industries, in social media for years, same situation, terrified of making a change for different reasons. The change arrived at him. Do I want to continue to work for someone? Very interesting. Or do I want to start something that I always felt in my God, he's been talking to me for years about wanting to try this whole freelance world and doing projects on his own and on his own terms. And guess what happened? And I was the same like you. Oh, you don't have to worry. He's like, no, but money, but this, but how, but who's going to talk to me, especially pandemic, blah, blah, blah. What happened? Even during, like he was leaving the job, he's now full on busy with different projects and it's out of capacity. And I'm not saying that all came to him out of nowhere. What did he do? I always said to him, like, talk to humans. Share where you are right now. What do you do? The experience and everything will literally follow you because you've got experience. You can't even like, it's there because you have a beautiful portfolio because you know people. You always know people and people know people. So even if in your closest circle, no one's going to be like, I've got to offer for you. I've got a project for you. John knows 10 other people, 10 other people know 10 other people. There's that beauty of kind of like word of mouth and kind of being in touch. So I always say talk to other people, whatever age, whatever situation, wherever you are. This whole experience, whether you want it or not, shows us that you can start businesses very much from the, from your room, with your little laptop, setting up a website in a day, setting up social in a second day, talking to people on the third day. See what happens. But also don't expect that the entire world was going to call you on the fourth day. Keep talking, keep talking on the fifth day, keep talking on the sixth day, listen to them, listen to what they want. Do they want this or maybe they actually suggest and want to bring in their suggestions, what actually looks like, what they think they need. Reflect, ask people, but also make sure that you do something that you really feel strongly about. So if I say I really like green, but you're like, I prefer red, you should go with red. If in my gut, I feel that it's definitely green and I want to test it, even if it fails, test it, test the green, you know, and then continue, continue, continue to develop, listen and all that. But never forget like the core. If at the core you're green, you know, show it to the world, talk to people. So that's the only thing I've always been saying. Like don't sit there. If you are an amazing poet writer or you make some beautiful crafts and arts or pottery or you cook super amazingly, or you've always been that chatty person that no one can stop. And that means you could start an amazing podcast with some humans. Try do it. Talk to people talk.

01:34:02 NATALIA: Website, so the good old natalkadesign.com or on social natalkadesign. Or I can also leave my personal social, you know, which is Instagram and Twitter and all these things. There's always a way. But yeah, you can always find me through natalkadesign.com. Doodly-doo is being built now, so don't go there. Rebuild. Yeah, but yeah, there's many ways. So yeah, always, always happy to chat, always happy to say hello.

01:35:09 NATALIA: Is it in a 10 year next year?

01:36:07 NATALIA: I can't wait to listen to all of them. Very nice.