How can you balance profit and sustainability in your organisation?

In the latest  episode of the Happier at Work podcast, I was joined by Carol Mannion, a seasoned learning and development consultant, to explore the intricacies of sustainability within corporate functions. Carol delves into the art of resource management, emphasising the need to creatively optimise efforts and budgets for enhanced outcomes. Our discussion sheds light on the transformative power of achieving a state of flow at work, where challenge meets capability, fostering both engagement and motivation. We also explore the broader conversation around sustainability, ESG, and the pivotal role of leadership in modeling sustainable behaviors.

Carol defines happiness at work through engagement and motivation brought on by balanced challenges. She discusses the role of leaders in influencing organisational culture and sustainability practices.

An introduction to sustainability reporting standards and the importance of genuine improvements beyond certifications.

Carol provides encouragement for self-awareness and personal development as tools for achieving sustainability objectives.

The main points:

• The significance of creatively directing organisational resources for optimal outcomes.
• The impact of individual actions in driving broader sustainable change within organisations.
• Exploring the shift from profit-driven mindsets to a more holistic, sustainable approach.
• Understanding sustainability through the "people, planet, profit" framework and striving for long-term goals.

Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

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Previous Episodes:

Episode 193: Nurturing Workplace Culture Lessons in Human-Centred Leadership with Kate Jones

Carol, you're so welcome to the Happy at Work podcast, and I'm so pleased that we're able to do this in person. I know we've been talking about it for a while, and it's been a while since I've been able to since I've had the opportunity to do an in person podcast recording. So thank you so much for making the time today for meeting up with me in Dublin. Would you like to tell listeners a little bit more about who you are, what you're about, and why we're here today?

Thank you, Aoife, and thanks for inviting me on the podcast. I'm so excited to be here, and it's, as you said, great to to meet in person. Great opportunity for for us to to have this conversation face to face. I'm really thankful for that. So I guess just to give you a little bit about my background before we get going. So I am a learning development consultant. I've worked in the field of talent, leadership development, learning and development for probably up to 20 years now at this point. I started off as a teacher, so I spent a couple years teaching and decided pretty quickly that wasn't for me, and I moved into the corporate world.

So I spent a number of years in the insurance industry in internal learning and development roles. That's really where I cut my teeth, learned the ropes, learned everything there is, to know around around running an l and d function, I guess, in a in a large organization, large multinational. And from there, I moved over to sometimes I moved over to the other side of the table because I moved into more consulting roles and spent a few years at the Irish Management Institute, where I was, designing and facilitating leadership development programs, and then with PWC doing more kind of organizational development consulting. So that brought me then to 4 years ago. I decided, when COVID hit, actually, it was an impetus for me to, start my own business, which is something I have been thinking about for quite a while. So for the last 4 years, I have been, working with clients across the spectrum of learning and development activities, really, and, delivering projects, delivering strategic value for for clients. And it's it's been fantastic. I've had done quite a diverse range of of, client projects at this point.

And, yeah, really, really enjoying the journey. So that's kind of an overview, I guess, of my career journey to date.

Brilliant. I love it. And I know we had spoken about this idea of sustainable l and d.

Mhmm. Do you wanna talk

a little bit more about, like, what does that actually mean? Like, is this quite a new concept and and where does it come from?

Yeah. So I guess when I went when I started my own business, I went out on my own, I found myself very much in the lucky position of having quite a great network, and I got quite a lot of business and quite a lot of clients coming to me who already knew me. So they already knew what I did, knew my work, and I got drawn into lots of different projects, which was great, but I didn't get an opportunity in those early that early stage of my business to actually take that step back and go, actually, what is it that I want to do, or what value do I want to bring to the world? And I think probably somewhere in the middle of last year, I was in the in the middle of completing my masters at DCU, so I've just completed a master's in strategic learning and development. And I really started to think about, okay. What what do I want to to do with this platform I have, Karl Mannion Learning, this business that that I've created? And through my studies, I came across the sustainable HR literature, and I really started getting very interested in the whole idea of how can we so I I know there are reporting obligations on organizations which drive and of the sustainability agenda in most organizations. And those reporting obligations were getting even more onerous with the arrival of the CSRD, which is the European directive, reporting obligation. So it's a big it was a big topic, I think, in in lots of conversations I was having around how how are we gonna do this? How are we gonna up our game when it comes to the sustainability agenda? And like a lot of people, I was feeling quite overwhelmed by the scope of this because, you know, becoming more sustainable is impacts our all of our lives. You know? And it's something we need to really transform, I think, how we live and work and how we run organizations.

And but I started to kind of, I suppose, take my own medicine and say, okay. What what is in within your scope of control? And when I look at the sustainable sustainable development goals at the UN have set that they're saying we need to hit by 2030, there are a number of them that are really close to, and related to what I do and what we do as people development professionals and organizations. So for example, gender equity and creating, you know, sustainable communities and cities, decent and sustainable work environments. So there was a lot in there that I felt, you know, we are really having we can really have an impact on that. And I don't know that anyone has joined the dots, that in order to reach the sustainability goals that organizations have and their reporting requirements, there needs to be a parallel kind of behavioral, cultural leadership development piece, to so that the behavior within the organization matches the ambitions, the sustainability ambitions of the organization.

It's so interesting because I haven't actually thought about it from that perspective. And so when I was thinking sustainable learning and development, there was a couple of things it could have been. It could have been the CSR that you're referring to now, or it could have been a way to educate people that's in a sustainable way and not a box ticking. Let's get people in. Oh, we've we've talked to them about this. We've given them a program on on this other topic, and now that's our job done. Mhmm. And then you go and you forget everything that you've learned or you you don't find a way to apply to the role that you have.

And so, therefore, it's unsustainable. So you go and you kinda tick a box, but then it's not brought into the workplace. So that's kind of there were 2 areas. So it's really interesting that you're saying it's much more related to the CSO aspect. And, no, I haven't joined the dots in relation to there needs to be this parallel track. So do you wanna talk to us a little bit more about, I suppose, maybe how how did you uncover that and what might that actually look like?

Yeah. Absolutely. And a question I've been asked a lot since I've started talking about this whole area is what part of sustainability are you talking about? It's such a broad area. But I like to and of pull it back and say, actually, sustainability, if we define the word, is about meeting our needs now while it's also looking after the needs of future generations. And I like to kind of bring it back to that simple definition. And then, you know, we talk about it in terms of the economic, the environmental, and the social. So the people, planet, profit, the triple bottom line. And and they're useful kind of lenses on it as well.

But, ultimately, in everything we do, are we considering not just meeting our needs now, not just meeting the targets for the next quarter, not just hitting whatever goals we wanna hit this year, but are we also setting ourselves, our teams, our businesses, society up, and indeed our planet up for longevity into the future as well? And it doesn't need to be either or.

Yeah.

You know? And I think when we strip it back to that, it becomes less about, you know, obviously, the green agenda and the science behind it and climate change, and it can be super overwhelming. But I think if we strip it back, I think it's more more helpful. And then we can really get into, okay, what are the mindsets and behaviors now that we can encourage in our organizations? Because organizations are a microcosm of society, and they're they're a really powerful kind of driver of change in our society. So what what do we need to encourage so that everybody is living, working, behaving in a way that is not just valuable in the present, but also will be valuable into the future? It's quite I guess, when I think deeply about it, it's quite philosophical, but, I think I I needed to go there to to get over the overwhelm. Mhmm. And I think that's probably something that we can bring to leaders and organizations as well that okay. It it may be overwhelming. A lot of us have our heads stuck in the sand.

You know, if you've been 25, 30 years in a profit making organization, it's very hard to kinda pull back and go, oh, wait a minute. There's people in planet as well, and now I need to start seeing success as being a more holistic

Yeah.

Rounded, definition. And that that can be difficult to do if if that's not been what you've been rewarded for for the last 20, 30 years.

I suppose this this is the kind of follow on question that I have is, you know, would it be fair to say that what we're talking about is typically organizations up to the next quarter? And I've always worked in organizations where it's like, oh, we need to meet the quarter. And then in q 4, it's like we need to meet meet the year end. And, I won't say fancy accounting, but things that should have popped up in q and, we can charge in advance for those and bring them into q four so that we hit our revenue goals for the year. And, you know, this focus shifting away from just a quarterly or a quarter by quarter outlook and moving more towards, okay. So, yes, we're looking at the current quarter. Yes. We're looking at the current year. But how can we impact in the longer term, and what might that look like? Any kind of this shift in mindset, would that be fair to say?

I think so. Yeah. And that's, you know, we're we're always gonna have a certain amount of the short term thinking and looking after the process to get to the the larger goal. But it is, I think and this is where when I think of an organization's sustainability agenda, I think of it in terms of a tree. And what we see in terms of the actions that are visible maybe from outside of the organization. So for example, your ESG reporting or your d and I reporting, your, your your green, business, That that's all kind of the branches and the leaves of the tree. And then in the trunk, you have, okay, what's what's actually going on in the organization? What are the behaviors and capabilities of the people that are producing those branches and outputs? And if there's a misalignment or if there's a contradiction there and the behaviors that we're seeing inside the organization don't match what the organization is saying that they're doing for the peep for people in planet, then that's where we see organizations leaders being accused of greenwashing.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I

did see a recent example of that, in, was it Starbucks coffee where he's flying in on his private jet for 3 days a week, every week. And they're talking about sustainability and how brilliant this is. And yet he's learning, you know, and someone did the calculations and said, hey. This is how much carbon he's using every week to commute to work. And so on the one hand, they're saying one thing, and on the other hand, these these are the actions of the CEO of the business.

Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, you know, we see we see a lot of examples of that, don't we, that there's there's a contradiction there, or, you know, it's the reporting of what you're doing is done to tick the box or to as a pure exercise. Yeah. But the behaviors internally in the organization. And then critically, if we go back to the tree analogy, the roots or the mindset or what what those behaviors are being built upon are not aligned. And I think a lot of the regulation and the reporting requirements and that, you know, they're they're dealing with the top of the tree with the the branches and the leaves. But I think there's a lot of work that can be done kind of on the roots, on the trunk to kind of shift.

And, like, it's not I mean, this is not easy work, and it's not quick work. But just to shift the mindsets and shift the behaviors and open the awareness and open the conversation around what it is we need to do here or what it is not even that we need to do, but how we need to work and how we need to view, our our kind of objectives and our our work in this organization.

For me, what what's kinda coming through is that we can say whatever we want, and we can talk about our sustainability plans and all of that kind of thing. But really at the heart of it is what is visible to the outside, and then does that match with internally as well? So what's what's visible on the outside, and what are we getting recognized for, and what are we telling the outside world? But then internally, if you're working in that organization and that doesn't match up, like, what the organization is saying outside doesn't match up with the experience that you have internally, which is not just from a sustainability perspective. It can be related to values and behaviors of the people within the organization. It can relate to the the reason I joined this organization was because you told me how amazing it is to work here, and then you get the reality when you actually go into that organization and see how things are really done when that wasn't really that wasn't really that wasn't transparent as you were progressing through the the hiring or the onboarding process. So it's it to me, it and boils down to an organization. What is what typically are the individuals in that organization rewarded for. And if they're rewarded for a specific type of behavior or if they have been up to now, it's revenue at all costs. It's, you know, meeting those quarterly targets, rather than bringing in these other aspects that are so so important for that longer term success.

So do you wanna talk a little bit more about that and maybe the mindset shift that's required in order to get from we have to meet these quarterly targets, yearly targets, whatever it might be, it's okay to behave in in whatever way we need to in order to achieve that versus thinking about, okay, longer term, how do we how do we change the mindset of the people, and how do we show them that we're going to reward them for different types of behaviors going forward? Yeah. And I think, you know, you've you've really described it well

there that, and well there that, that challenge that we have and that we see in different organizations. And I I do believe that to to to each employee, their line manager is the CEO. So I think leadership behaviors across the organization, and I often say leadership with a a small l because I think each and every person has the capacity to lead from where they are. And regardless of what you tell someone, role modeling us is way more effective. So, each leader in your organization is casting a shadow as they move through through the organization.

I know that is good.

You're casting a shadow. Yeah. Yeah. It's something I came across recently, this idea of a leadership shadow. And whatever you are saying and whatever you're saying is important, that needs to come across in your behaviors and in how you move and how you present yourself because that is the shadow that people

see. Yeah. It's not just say what I say, it's say or sorry. It's not just do what I say, it's do what I do. So if I say something but I'm actually not behaving in that way myself, then people are more likely to replicate the behaviors that I'm showing rather than the words that I'm saying. 1 behaviors that I'm showing rather than the words that I'm saying. 100%. And like a simple

example, and this has happened multiple times, and I'll be talking to a leader saying, you know, your their team is burnt out or, you know, their their people off work stress or whatever. And they say, well, I keep telling them to take their breaks, keep telling them to go home at 5 o'clock, but they don't do it. And then I say, but do you take a lunch break? You know, do you log off in the evening? Or you know? And yeah. Like so the the telling somebody in that directive approach to well, I told you take your lunch break, and I told you that you don't need to be working at the weekends or you don't need to be, you know, burning yourself out for the sake of this work. But if what's role modeled to you as a leader that seems to be always on online on the weekends, that that that is what particularly and of high achievers are, you know, talented individuals in your organization. That's what they're going to emulate

Yeah.

Especially if they're in early career. They're gonna be looking to people like you. You're a leader in this organization. You're successful. How do you move through this organization so that I can emulate that and then, you know, have the career that you're having? So They

can see what's being recognized. They can see the behaviors of their immediate team, their immediate boss, and see and if the immediate boss and I think we get a lot of our behaviors from them, whether it's positive or whether it's negative or might have a particularly bad and say, I never want to be like that, and maybe go the opposite way, you know, as in too far extreme on the other way as well. The other thing that occurred to me, Carol, is this with the analogy of the shadow, the higher you are, the longer the the shadow you cast. Mhmm. And this is maybe not something that people think about often because when you're in quite a a senior position, you have way more eyes on you. And your behavior is I was gonna say scrutinized. Scrutinized is probably the wrong word, but it's your behavior and how you act and and the things that you say and the way you show up at work is visible by many, many more people than if you were at a lower level in leadership.

It it really is. That's a really good point. And I love that idea of the longer shadow. I hadn't thought of that. I'll be I'll be stealing that idea. Yeah. Absolutely. And, like, when you were saying that, I was thinking, yes.

And you have fewer opportunities to actually engage with the people on a personal level.

Yeah.

So you need to be way more intentional about your messaging and your role modeling and what you're presenting and what behaviors you're encouraging and what what you're rewarding and what you're incur you know, the the the what you're encouraging, in that organization. What's and in vocalizing what's important to you. And that's why leaders kind of use things like expressing purpose and vision and, the more more intangible ways, I guess, of of, trying to relate to people.

Yeah. And I suppose if we bring it back down to the individual level, now first thing that this needs be at an individual, let's say, leader level or small l, anyone who's in a position that they are leading themselves or that they can take leadership or ownership for something. So if we bring it back down to that level and we think, okay. So what is this mindset shift that actually needs to happen? So going from this short term, and even at that level, it's and of like what tasks do I have to get done today? And maybe not even taking that time to review what tasks tasks I have or reprioritize them or cut some things off the list or delegate some other things because I'm using my my quote fingers here now to say I don't have time to and it's like, when you don't have time, you need to make that time to be able to prioritize. But I suppose the the more general shift in mindset from the short term thinking to the longer term sustainability when we're so used to focusing on the immediate next steps that need to happen? How do we, as individuals, make that that leap?

Yeah. Well, the first thing I would say is that each of us has strengths, and each of us is already probably displaying behaviors that are what what are needed in the sustainability mindset. There's a really nice tool that I came again, I came across in my studies the work of Isabelle Romanovsky, and she has created, from her PhD research on the sustainability mindset, she has created a sustainability mindset indicator. And she has outlined the 4 4 and content areas that make up the sustainability mindset. So you have ecological worldview. You have the, systems perspective, emotional intelligence, and spiritual intelligence. And under each of those, there are a number of principles. So there are 12 principles in total, and it's a really nice tool to look at just for me, it was really reassuring to see that there were some of some of the principles where I felt, okay.

I'm I'm actually quite strong in that. I know what that's about. There were others maybe, like, eco literacy and, you know, maybe more the spiritual side of things where I was like, okay. There's there's some work I could do in that. But some of the, for example, in the emotional intelligence, it's about self awareness and reflection. In the kind of systems perspective, It's about that both and thinking, you know, being able to navigate paradox and duality. It's about long term being able to balance long term and short term thinking. So I think kind of looking at maybe a tool like that and saying, okay.

Where where do I sit firstly in relation to that? And how would I kind of assess? You could take the the indicator. There is an assessment you can do. You take the indicator. It gives a lovely developmental report, and you could assess kind of where are the areas that maybe I need to to do some work on. And I I think that's a a good kind of first step is the the awareness piece because we we need to get our hand our heads out of the sand, really Yeah. On the, on the sustainability challenges. Yeah.

I sort of feel like there was a huge drive when I was younger about the development, and we used to talk about the, what were they? The c CCCs or the CCCs or something? I can't even remember the name. The aerosols, basically.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I was a huge drive around that.

And, you know,

I was just thinking the other day, of the bins that we used to have, just a black sack on the side of the road. And now it's divided into 3 different types of bins. And, you know, we'll probably first start it with the black bin. And now now we've got the 2 extra bins in Ireland anyway. But I love this idea of the learning a the skills that we already have, maybe challenging our thinking a little bit. The fact that you brought up self awareness is so, so important because what you're talking about can be applied to so many different aspects.

Mhmm.

So self awareness and there is a previous episode all about self awareness. If people want to go back and listen to that, doctor Nia Thomas, really brilliant episode about how to grow in self awareness. Because my thing with self awareness is we all think that we're really self aware. But how self aware are you actually? And I think we're all less self aware than we believe ourselves to be. And I suppose to me, again, self awareness is how different is the perception that others have of you versus the perception that you have of yourself. So are you showing up in the way that you think you're showing up? So that was what I would say about that. The other thing I really liked was this balancing of the long term and short term thinking. Because I think oftentimes, and I'm guilty of this myself, we get so wrapped up in what we want to get done immediately, or we're looking at those shorter term goals and 90 day goals versus thinking about that bigger picture.

What does that longer term look like? And again, we can apply this in so many different scenarios. So I love that. And then maybe, again, similar to yourself, the missing piece for me is that eco awareness. Like, what is it that we do need to do? Thinking back to my early career, having a printer at the end of every bank of desks versus now. It's like there's a shared printer for, you know, way more people versus just having and printer. Being able to print print in color. Hello. Any kids listening to this and, they were like, printing in color? Wow.

And then printing on one side of the page only. Whereas now, it's like it's black and white and it's 2 sides and that's it. Or even better, we've moved on beyond that. Read it on a PDF on your machine or on your phone or, for me, it's I've got my sustainable, so I can read it on my sustainable, and I can make notes on it and everything. But it's it's, you know, I suppose shifting or becoming more aware of the impact that we're having. So, I mean, I'm just talking about the environment. What else can be can we start thinking about from a sustainability perspective?

Yeah. And that that's, I think that's really spot on to start to think about what firstly, it's it's okay. What what is it that we need to know? And, I mean, it can be quite confronting when we really dig into this stuff. So the the latest report for the, looking at the progress towards the sustainability development goals, which are the global goals that the UN have set out. And they have said, we need to reach these goals by 2030

Yeah.

Or we are in serious trouble.

Which is

And the the 6 Yeah. 500 years away. Yeah. Like, it's not it's not a long time. And the latest report, I mean, the language is really stark, you know. It's like we are severely off track. I think that's an actual quote from the introduction. Are

there particular aspects or areas within that where we're massively off track?

There are and there are you know, if you look at the report, there is kind of, a traffic light system.

Yeah.

There's a lot of red and amber in there.

Mhmm. You can put a link to the report so people can Yeah.

Let's let's do that. But encouragingly, corporate practices, corporate sustainability practices is actually green. Okay. So That's one of the sub elements of, of and of the the goals. So when I saw that, I thought, oh, great. It's really positive. And, again, back to to my point earlier of imagine if we could get the mindsets and behaviors aligned to that. Mhmm.

Because I think a lot of us are doing the practices. We're doing the recycling. We're doing whatever it is we need to do in our organizations, but maybe not with the understanding of the why.

Yeah. And, yeah, like, we haven't really interrogated our mindsets around us. Yeah.

So, So I would say for an organizational leader, that's probably

a good place to start. And to

kind of going

from there then, obviously,

I mean, every leader in organization and gonna be aware of the the reporting they have to do probably more. They they'll know more about it than me. So, you know, there are that that shines a light on kind of, you know, the the particular challenges that organizational leaders need to be aware of. But for ourselves, it it really is is things like looking at our behaviors and looking at, you know, our our consumption habits, for example. I mean, overconsumption is is a huge issue. I'm, you know, a typical gen y fast fast fast fashion. Love my fast fashion like any other gen y. And and that's the thing as well.

It's to kinda look at it with less of a judgment and more of a okay. I was brought up in the 19 eighties in Ireland. You know? There there wasn't a whole lot of focus on on kind of, you know, living in a sustainable way or, you know, we had plastic bags in the supermarket. We, you know, we we Yeah. Just didn't think about this stuff. So we all are products as well of our environment, of cultures, of our our backgrounds, of our families, of our of our organizations. So maybe coming at it for yourself and for others with a little bit more compassion and understanding as well of, like, none of us are perfect here. None of us have been saints.

We've all created this situation together, and the only way we'll solve it is through collective action. And what what are the things that I can put in place in my life that are reasonable, that I can afford to do? And I watched a TED talk a while back, and I I wish I could remember her name. I was trying to think coming in in the car. I was like, I really should've I'll I'll try and I'll try and find the name of the the speaker. But, basically, she was talking about the climate crisis, and she said rather than getting overwhelmed by how hopeless it can all seem at times, can each of us kind of look at what are our unique talents and skills that we have, and how can we deploy those to the cause of improving, you know, the the the the the planet for for people going forward? So, again, bringing it back, and I love that kind of visual from Stephen Covey, and habits of our circle of influence and circle of concern. Yeah. If we spend time in our circle of concern all the time and we're going, oh god, the world is you know, we're we're we're never coming back from this. You know, that that that's fine.

But what happens is our circle of influence starts to shrink. Whereas if we spend time in our circle of influence and we actually, you know, do look at what we have control over, look at what we can have influence over, talk constructively and proactively about these topics, then our circle of influence starts to grow. And then if everybody swept their own doorstep, the whole world would be clean. So, you know, it's each and of us can take kind of individual action, but I I suppose the fact the reason I'm here with you today, and I'm so passionate about this, is because organizational leaders have more of an influence than the rest of us. So if they start to and think about this stuff and if they start to make that shift and start to get more self aware and start to bring role model more of these behaviors in their teams and encourage us in their organizations, then that that's gonna have a a deeper impact.

Can I ask maybe a a kind of a provoking question? Why should people care?

Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, the cynicism does creep in as well. Like, I've had people say, you know, like, for example, if you look at it in the Irish context, we're, like, couple of 1000000 people. It doesn't matter if I'm recycling or if I'm taking my plastic bottles back to the supermarket if if they're still gonna be polluting in in other countries or if, you know, the big manufacturers aren't going to take it seriously. And, again, you know, I come back to that kind of circle of concern, circle of influence. I think, you know, we can and and maybe it's easier to just kind of not think about it and not go there. Mhmm.

But nothing nothing that's worth having is easily got, I think. So, I

If nothing changes, nothing changes.

Nothing. That's what they say. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, I do think of future generations. You know? I have 2 children. So that that that's a big driver for me, to kinda go, okay. I have a responsibility.

If they look me in the eye in 20 or 30 years and say, what did you do?

Did nothing. Yeah.

I don't I don't wanna have to turn around to them and say, oh, well, I stuck my head in the and, or I I didn't think there was any point because there was other people polluting more than me or whatever. So, now I'm not saying I'm perfect, and I'm not saying that don't come after me. If you looked at my lifestyle, you know, I'm not I'm I'm by no means a saint when it comes to this stuff, but I think I can be a voice that maybe can can bridge the gap and come at it from a a more compassionate, less less judgmental way, and bring some kind of practical tools and leadership development, approaches that I think can be really, really effective. Mhmm.

You know? You and the word cynical there, and there's something that's been weighing on my mind as well when I think back to some of the initiatives that we had when I was employed. And in one organization, we set up a green team. And, Brilliant, you know, it was we're responsible for things like usage of, energy, so, electricity mostly, looking at things like recycling in the workplace and how much recycling we were doing, were we bringing our recycling from home that we were able to do that as well. And so there was a whole team, an initiative Mhmm. Around this, ongoing learning. But the cynics there, and some people on the team as well were quite cynical about this, was that it was a cost reduction exercise. Mhmm. So the big and, again, to me, this links with the behaviors, the general outlook, and the general attitude of the leaders in the team.

So if they're very much focused on cost saving all around, and then we set up this green team, it's yeah. It's it is focused on the environment, but it's very heavily focused on and this is how much money we saved by using less electricity by turning off our computers instead of leaving them on standby by, yeah, having the lights turn off automatically if there's no one there, all of that kind of thing. But then there's this cynical attitude of, well, the huge focus in the organization is around cost saving and higher margins. So how, I suppose, do we get away from that? That it's not just a box ticking. It's not just about saving money. It's more about bringing awareness to the long term sustainability of our planet.

And what you're saying on the one hand and then what you're doing? Yeah. And I've seen that as well where, you know, you're trying to you start a new initiative, and and and I think it's a great example of how you can actually save money and have a positive impact on the planet at the same time. But the communication of that isn't always done very well, or the communication is done, but the behavior up to that point has been, as he said, more aligned with kind of that profit motive. And, and I think it's it's, you know, being honest about that as well, that if it's a commercial enterprise, it's it's there to make money. That's the There to make profit.

That's the secondary benefit to what it is Yeah. You're doing as opposed to the main driver behind

it, I suppose. Yeah. But there are now, even in ESG standards, so, investors are looking to invest in organizations that are not just making money at all costs, but are also having that positive impact on the planet and people. So I think at the end of the chain, even if it is a money making machine, there is usually a human. And, ethical investors and and ethical shareholders will want to see, these this kind of balance Yeah. Of the the the triple bottom line. Yeah. So I think the more the more that that is spoken about in the boardrooms and the more that that is kind of set as an expectation of leaders and organizations, the the more likely it'll it'll be to happen.

But it I think it needs to be shared as well, because sometimes those conversations, they happen, you know, in the boardroom or at the the top kind of top team level of an organization. But then and of the middle managers, frontline managers are more focused on the operation. Yeah. So they don't necessarily get to be privy to those conversations. So I think it is the onus is on senior leaders to to make sure that that's shared. Yeah. So that

message. Yeah. Trickle it down.

So that when an amazing initiative happens in the organization for recycling or whatever it is, that people feel that this is something that that is really valued.

Mhmm. That they can get behind.

Yeah. Yeah.

Is there something to be said, Carol, for b corps? Now this is something that I have no idea about this. I think about two and a half years ago, I heard the term, and I was like, oh, that's interesting. I must look that up. So I looked up about b corps and became hugely fascinated with this whole concept, with this idea of what a b corp is and whether or not my business could eventually turn into a b corp. So, you know, do do you have anything to say around that? Like, do you know are you aware of the the kind of b corp movement? Do you wanna speak to that a little bit before we wrap things up? Yeah. Yeah. I have come across that and I think it's kind of net zero,

isn't it? The net zero impact. It's it's not that the companies are they're still profit

profit making companies, but the focus is more on that they're doing good in the world.

Yeah. Yeah.

That they're they're not they're not profit at all costs. Yes. They're doing something that benefits the world as a whole. And there's a whole series of different questions. I haven't taken the the test myself yet, but lots of different questions that people can go through to determine how how far along you are in getting to that b corp status or whether or not you are or what which different areas that you can focus on. But I think there's maybe 4 different types, again, subtypes of the this company is good for people. This company is good for the environment. This company is good for but lots of different types of organizations, accountancy firms, law firms, agencies, all sorts of different types of firms are getting this b corp status.

And I think for me, it's be maybe, again, doing research, becoming more aware of and, and shifting our business from those big business that are profit first to who can I work with? Maybe I'll pay a little bit more money, but who can I work with who's doing good in the world?

Yeah. Yeah. And I know with the kind of new reporting, the European reporting as well, that the focus is not just on your operation, but on your your supply chain as well. So upwards and downwards.

Yeah. Where are you getting? Yeah.

Yeah. Pretty much. So yeah. And I I mean, the these are fantastic. Like, the b corp movement, for example, it's fantastic kind of, assessment that you can again look at to see where you sit as an organization. And I love to hear I to be honest, I haven't looked into, to it that much, but I I love to hear that there are different certifications. You know, people plan a profit, you know, whatever it might be that you're doing good in. Because, again, we don't we don't all need to, you know, excel in the same area to do good in the world.

You know? And we need we need a lot of different skills and competencies, and we need and and competencies, and we need a lot of different organizations doing different things. So, I would say, just like the individual assessment of the sustainability mindset indicator, looking at and of those organizational standards and seeing where you sit in relation to them and doing it in a way that's not, okay, let's try and kind of shoehorn whatever we can in here so that we can get this certification.

And more regain the system here.

Yeah. We're just looking at where do we

stand currently and what are some of these of things that we could do Exactly. To improve what it is

we're

you're doing.

Yeah. Really looking at it in an honest way and saying, okay. Here's where we're over index indexed, and here's where we could do more. And then, you know, you can you can channel your resources, your budget into, you know, whatever whatever resources and budget you have for for this stuff, which doesn't tend to be a lot, but even just the efforts of your people and the the focus of your people, is is a powerful resource in itself. So, yeah, being being creative and smart about kinda how you how you drive that forward. Yeah.

Carol, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Being happier at work for me means that I am in flow. So I think where the level of challenge meets or just slightly exceeds your capability, that that's the sweet spot of happiness at work and engagement at work and just wanting to get up and go in the next morning.

Mhmm. I

think when I'm pushing myself slightly

Sufficiently challenged.

But I'm feeling resourced to do it. Yeah. That's that's when I feel happiest at work.

I love it. And if people want to reach out to you, if they want to find out more about what you do, if they want to learn more about sustainability from an l and d perspective, what's the best place that they can do that?

Yeah. So, like, I'm really interested in talking to anybody who is thinking about this whole area as well, because I I mean, I'm still figuring it out myself. We're all we're all on this journey together. You know? So, if anyone would like to have a chat with me on it, or anyone is looking at kind of the the the sustainability behaviors within their organization, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm quite active on LinkedIn, so you'll find me there on Instagram as well, or my website is carolmanionlearning.com.

Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today, Carol. I really, really enjoyed that conversation. And something quite different that we haven't really touched on on the podcast before, but something so, so important, I think. So thank you.

Thanks for having me, Aoife.