Artwork for podcast Holding the Fort Abroad
An episode to share with your Parents & In Laws - with Helen Ellis
Episode 224th May 2022 • Holding the Fort Abroad • Rhoda Bangerter
00:00:00 00:33:16

Share Episode

Shownotes

Synopsis:

Helen is NOT an expat, she is the mother of expats, a long distance grandparent and the author of a series of books on distance relationships between grandparents, distance sons and daughters and distance grandchildren. One of Helen’s children was an expat with a travelling partner. This episode is a conversation being a distance grandparent when your expat child is solo parenting.


In This Episode:

  • The importance of generations understanding each other in distance families
  • Being available but keeping boundaries
  • Distance Parents/in Laws are all different !
  • Advice for Distance Parents
  • How a Distance Child can use this advice to ask their parents/in laws for help
  • What if you have a difficult relationship with Parents/In Laws ?

Resource Mentioned in the Episode:

Transcripts

Rhoda Bangerter:

Welcome to Holding the Fort Abroad, the podcast for expats with travelling partners. My name is Rhoda Bangerter, I am a certified coach and the author of the book ‘Holding the Fort Abroad’. In this podcast, I interview men and women who live abroad and have travelling partners so that we can all benefit from their wisdom and experience. I also invite relationship experts to apply their expertise to this topic. Today my guest is Helen Ellis. Helen is NOT an expat, she is the mother of expats, a long distance grandparent and the author of a series of books on distance relationships between grandparents, distance sons and daughters and distance grandchildren. One of Helen’s children was an expat with a travelling partner and so we will be having a conversation around being a distant grandparent when your expat child is solo parenting. Helen welcome to the show !

Helen Ellis:

Thank you Rhoda it's great to be here! We've talked about this for a while and I feel really honored to be in your fabulous space. So thank you for having me.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Thank you so much for being here and for having this conversation with me. You are a distant grandparent, as I said, not a distant, but a distance grandparent. You write and research about being a distance grandparent. Tell us a bit about your experience as a distance grandparent and your series of books.

Helen Ellis:

It's my second marriage. I remarried over 30 years ago. And when I got married the second time I had a three and a four year old, my own children and my husband, who's older than me had a 19 and 20 year old. So we started out with this really odd package and his children took off and to see the world in the early days, and then they had children. So I found myself a step grandmother when I was about 40 while I was still bringing up teenagers. And, you know, so we ended up with grandchildren on the other side of the world. And this whole traveling to see them started to become part of us and our identity. And then my kids grew up and they went overseas. So we are visiting them as well. So this whole thing became part of my world.

At the same time, having run businesses and done all sorts of other things in my life, I decided to take myself off to university as a mature student, and I did a BA and then one of the last courses was a paper that taught us about how to do a research proposal. And the professor said ‘Okay, Helen, you are going to do your masters’ (which I definitely didn't want to do!) ‘What would you do it on?’ And the only thing I could really think about that I found I had a really good knowledge of was distance grandparenting. Well, she was a distance grandparent. She thought it was a great idea. Long story short, I then spent another year doing my masters. And my thesis was about being a New Zealand distance grandparent. And that led to then deciding a book needed to be written because there was really not much out there. And I felt that there were so many wonderful parents and members of distance families who deserved some help, some sort, you know, cause there were, there was no manual, you don't get taught about how to do this. So the idea one book ended up becoming three books, because I realized that there was real advantages in explaining how it is for each generation. You know, I know how it is for me, but I don't know how it is so much for my grandchildren, or how is it for my daughters and sons. So that's how the three book series came around, because I thought ‘Well, if we, you can all understand how it is for the other, then that creates empathy, and empathy is good with distance families.’ So, so far, I've written ‘Being a Distance Grandparent’, which means the parent as well, like your parents and it's a book for all generations. So I'm encouraging everybody to read it because you gain so much, hopefully, about how it is for your folks.

And right now, I'm kind of on the home straight, little way away from delivering ‘Being a Distance Son or Daughter’. And that's probably most of the listeners. There I acknowledge everything that you go through, and you have to cope with and, you know, add some ideas about how to improve it - relationships with your parents. And I'm hoping that the parents are gonna read the book as well so that they understand how it is better for you. So I'm just trying to connect a few more dots between the generations. And then I will go on to then do one about the grandkids.

Rhoda Bangerter:

That's great. I mean, I had the great privilege of being able to read the second one as a beta version, but also as a beta reader, but also the first one when it came out and did I read it as a beta version?

Helen Ellis:

You kind and you were editor.

Rhoda Bangerter:

I did. Yes. And what I, what I wrote to you after reading, it was that it's the kind of information that you don't get around the kitchen table when you are visiting your family. You know, you are living it every day, but you don't actually end up talking about it much or actually saying what you wanted to say to, you know, the other generation, whichever way around you… whichever position you're in, in those, in that generation. So I'm excited. I'm really, it's incredibly, incredibly useful for each generation to be able to understand each other. Now you've been a distance grandparent to an adult child who had a partner who was away a lot for work. How did you experience it from your perspective, sort of seeing your child living that. Did you know when their partner was away? Did you notice anything different?

Helen Ellis:

Yes. Well, let me give you some context, cause I think that's probably quite helpful.

So I'm in New Zealand and it was my own daughter and this was happening when she was living in Bangkok in a very typical expat situation and also living in Atlanta, in America in a very much neighborhood, you know, permanent kind of picket fence sort of situation. The other important aspect to be aware of is that it was a strained marriage and since there's been a divorce and now my daughter co-parents, so that's another version of solo parenting is well. But I guess I need to say that from the outset, you know, it was strained. So we sort of had double trouble, you might say. And it coordinated with the job that he had, our son-in-law had, that took him a lot of, had a lot of travel coordinated with our daughter finding she was pregnant for the first time. So it was all the babies and the pregnancies and all that very challenging time. Because it was a strained situation, it was just tricky anyway, but we learned to make ourselves available just whenever she needed to chat. You know, there was a rhythm, you know, you get to know the time zone. So, you know, we had regular calls, but there'd be lots of just random calls as well. So we would do our very best to be there for her and put aside whatever we might be doing. We would time visits so that, you know, we were there when maybe he was away or there was a crossover, you know, we'd arrive halfway through one of his trips and then he'd arrive home in the middle of it. Sometimes in our communications, my daughter would pour her heart out to us and say how miserable she was and all that sort of thing. But we found we really needed to be careful there, you know, your marriage is, or your partnership is a sacred thing, and it wasn't our job to interfere. But there were times when she needed to pour her heart out and we needed to obviously do the best job that we could. There was a time when they had just moved to Atlanta when she was pregnant with the second and had a toddler in tow, they were moving to this brand-new city and they just bought a house you know, through a quick visit. And she was literally landing in the city eight months pregnant with a toddler and her a husband was taking off for two weeks for business overseas.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Not uncommon, not uncommon, unfortunately!

Helen Ellis:

No, it's not, it's not. But from my perspective at where I was sitting at that moment, our neighbor, you know, right next door to me, her daughter had just delivered at eight months. So I just then sort of spoke up and said, ‘Look, I really don't feel happy about this. What say I get in a plane and come over earlier than was actually planned.’ We were coming to be there to babysit the toddler and all that kind of thing… Big scurry, scurry, scurry, and I got myself on a plane. So I guess from the parents' perspective, you know, we need to be incredibly flexible. We need to be really understanding. And it absolutely took a strain on me personally, physically, emotionally, all this, but I think I had double trouble. So I think that there was the marriage there as well. I think if it was just the traveling spouse, probably it was wouldn't have been quite so bad, I could have been really sympathetic, but we did have the whole marriage thing. And so of course now we've got the co-parenting, you know, that's a whole different deal again, because she's got the children 50% of the time. So 50% of the time we are not in a position to say hi to the boys. But the advantage to that, and this is an advantage that I see with the solo parenting situation that we are looking at here, is it as parents, or as the grandparents, I get to have more one on one time with my daughter because 50% of the time now she doesn't have the children. So you've gotta look at the pluses, you know?

Rhoda Bangerter:

Yeah. Interesting

Helen Ellis:

So to answer your question. It was a very strained time. And it wasn't much fun.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Yeah. I suppose this is a double conversation. I suppose it's like, how can a distance parent/grandparent help when there's strains in the marriage when you are far away and also when the partner’s away a lot. Did you notice any specific challenges that you could detect that occurred, you know, because of the traveling. It's hard to disassociate what was due to travel, what wasn't due to travel, but was there anything specific that you can think of?

Helen Ellis:

I guess there's always that question of ‘How important is this trip?’, you know, ‘Is it really that important?’. ‘What are you achieving by going in the plane? What…’, and especially now that we've been through, you know, going through, coming out the end of, hopefully (!) COVID, where we've all learned to do things - so many more things - virtually, that didn't exist at that time. It was everybody was in a plane. And I think that if there's one thing that COVID has taught us, which must help is that there is a whole different conversation about whether that travel is essential.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Yes.

Helen Ellis:

And our situation, it felt like he was doing his best to spend that travel budget. You know, when you go, ‘Is that really necessary?’.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Very interesting. So from a distance parent perspective, sometimes not always understanding why that the partner's gone. Or why they can't come back, you know, when needed. I think that's an important question and maybe there's communication there. What, in what ways can a distance grandparent, or parent I should say, help their adult child when they're not the traveling partner?

Helen Ellis:

Well I think it's really good for me to acknowledge from my research that parents and parents in-law are so incredibly different. I can't get over how, you know, I'll speak to one distance daughter or distant son as I call them, the middle generation, and they go on about how their parents are fantastic and this and that. And then the next person I talk to: ‘Oh my God, don't talk to me about my parents.’ You know? So we are dealing with a generation of people that your perception or how it is for you is so different. So it is quite hard to sort of categorize it. Everybody's parents are so different, but if I was sitting down, if I was sitting in an arrival/departure lounge, and I met a couple of distance grandparents sitting next to me, what would I say to them? I would say things like ‘Understand that the communication with your son or daughter when their partner is in town is completely different from when they're alone.’

Rhoda Bangerter:

That is so important. Can you expand on that?

Helen Ellis:

It's like, there's a switch. You know, it’s alone time. So depending on the personality of their child, for example, my daughter, you know, it would be very laid back and, you know, the dishes might not be done. And that's the way it is. And to me, it became like a switch. As soon as we would come online, even if I wasn't sure whether my son-in-law was traveling at that time, I would know by the atmosphere that he was home! So I think that it is really good to know that you've got two different types of communication.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Right. So I suppose what you're saying is that it’s useful for the distance parent to observe their communication with their distance child, who's the one potentially not traveling and see ‘How are they different? How are they communicating differently? How, what can I tell from their demeanor or their expression, how things are when their partner's home, when they're not. Are they more stressed, less stressed? Are they, have they got more challenges, less challenges?’ and maybe asking them questions about saying, you know ‘Hey’, you know ‘What is it like when they're gone? What is it like when they're home?’ That's a really, really good point. Thank you for pointing that out.

Helen Ellis:

So other things is that they can, they can ask, you know, ‘How can we support you most when Peter/Sue/Mary is away? And keep asking that question as needs change. And what might be the reply at one stage could easily change a few years down the track. So it's a question you always say, ‘How can I support you most, when so and so is away?’ A biggie of course is never poor guilt on your child for anything. It is so unhelpful and the line ‘Well, it was your choice to move abroad’ is definitely…get rid of it!!! Laughter.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Why though? Why though?

Helen Ellis:

Why? Mainly because it's just unhelpful.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Yeah, yeah.

Helen Ellis:

Alright? It's just unhelpful.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Yeah. Because this is a conversation we have in the expat world. People sometimes say that to us when we complain, when we're kind of saying ‘This is really difficult’ and people say, you know ‘Well, it was your choice’. But I think we also say to each other, ‘Well, A) sometimes we don't know what we've signed up for and B) we can still find it hard, even if it was our choice.’ Anyway, that's good reminder for distance parents!

Helen Ellis:

Yeah. That's what I'm talking to the distance parents, it’s the fact that it's not helpful. It's not going to add to the day, even if it's, we all have to learn to hold back from saying what might be just on the tip of our tongue. I would also add things like don't expect, from the grandparents' perspective, don't expect perfection, you know, through the camera. You know, if the lounge is messy with toys, ignore it. You know, if you'd like to see a house that's all nice and tidy and all that, it's just too hard. So we have to lower our expectations of whatever is delivered us. And I don't mean that in a critical way. I just want mean hang loose! You know, we need to allow our child, our adult child to download if that's what needs to be done that day. Sometimes my daughter would get on the phone and rattle rattle rattle and then she'd realize she hadn't asked anything about us, and just before the call was finished ‘Oh, oh, how are you, mom and dad?’, you know, we just have to allow her to download! So depending on the personality, that's sometimes what it takes. During my couple of years of being a solo mother, my secret to surviving was routine. You know, we have routine. I remember when my five year old said to me ‘Mom, it's five o five. It's dinner time.’! So for me, for the kids, routine was really important. You know, it made up for an awful lot of things that I couldn't manage to do. And simple fear, simple food, nutritious, but I learned that I didn't need 10 ingredients for the meal, I just needed simple fear. And they have all grown. They've grown up to be kids who will eat anything. So there was no problem there. Another thing I would say to a distance parent or distance grandparent, if I was sitting next to them in a departure lounge, as I would say, understand that their adult child's child-free time is incredibly precious to them when their partner is away. So just because I might know that the kids are in bed and that my daughter could be talking to me, doesn't mean that that's the best thing at this time. When the children are at school or the children are asleep, that your own time, it’s your recharging time. And recharging might be with a call with mum, right? Or it might not be. It might be with a call with mum one day, but not a call with mom another day. So don't take offense, allow her or him to do what they need to do to recharge for the next day.

Keep telling your child that they're doing a great job. And you're proud of what they're doing.

And the other thing that I'm really hot about in these situations, is when you've got limited brain space and limited hours to parent, and to have relationships with your parents and your children and your spouse is the huge benefit of the love languages.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Right.

Helen Ellis:

And I know you talk about it in your book.

If you have a child that you've figured out, it’s words of affirmation, if all you do is sit down for five minutes, one on one with that child during the day, and have a conversation with them, that's enough! Don't worry about everything else you could be doing - taking them to the park or buying them a gift at the shop or giving them 10 hugs every hour. They don't need that! They just need the five minutes. So when you've got limited energy, limited brain space, for heaven’s sake, do the most efficient thing!

Rhoda Bangerter:

Yes, yes.

Helen Ellis:

Sounds like running, you know! But it’s the same with your parents. If your mother's words of affirmation, just give her the assurance that she's got some one-on-one time with you, every single one, and that'll be enough.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Right. That's super useful advice. So that was useful advice for the distance parent. And I think if this is something that this episode can be shared to the grandparents, to the distance parents to saying, Hey, you know, this, this is how you can help me. And as we flip it on its head, this is what an adult child who’s solo parenting can think about how can my parents or parents in law support me. And if that relationship is in a place where they can do that, then as solo parents, we can say, ‘Hey mom, listen, I just need to offload. Can I just, just, I don't want advice. I don't want criticism. I don't just, just listen to me. I need to just vent or I need support. I need you to ask me how I'm doing on a regular basis’…Well, parents will probably do that anyway, but maybe specific questions or can you just, just, my partner is away. ‘Can you notice how my communication is when he's away or when, or when she's away and when she's not’. You know, I think we could rope our parents in in a specific way and so that they're part of the team that support us as solar parents. So we had the conversation about including the grandparents in our support team when we're solo parenting and our partner’s away, using the distance in a way to say, how can this be beneficial for the grandparent-grandchildren relationship? You know, how can I support as the distance child? Because we're the gatekeepers, as you say, how can I support that relationship, but then how can they support me when I'm solo parent and maybe take some of that weight off by being the story tellers, by engaging my children in something that then gives me a little bit of off time to alleviate a little bit of the role overwhelm that happens when the partners are away. Sorry, what would you advise the, the distance child, son or daughter to communicate to their parents or in-laws?

Helen Ellis:

In-Laws? Well, I think it's really important to realize that as a bunch in-laws are very cautious. They're very cautious. I mean, I have a friend who's got a few sons and they're married and she, her line is, she tells her friends who are going to be mothers of the groom wear beige and say nothing. Right? So, so what I'm saying is, if you are not super familiar with your in-laws give them the benefit of the doubt and become, you know, warm to them because you are the key to talking with their grandchildren, be very respectful, but you might be surprised what you can, you know, how they can support you. They might support you just as well as your own parents. So I was sort of saying, keep an open mind, treat them as your own parents and see how they can support you. Because you know, you are their key to talking with their grandchildren and they want to have a warm relationship with you. Otherwise, they might need to wait until their child is back in town. So treat them as gold, assume that they're going to be really fantastic, but they do come in all flavors and, and some in-laws are really tricky. There are some really nasty mothers-in-law out there and I'm the first to admit it and I'm writing about them in the book. So that for everybody it's there in writing. But I'd like to assume that they're good. So you may have some that just wanna help you and do everything they can. They so appreciate you in their life. And there'll be some who just expect you to suck it up. They're kind of suck it up kind of people. And they don't have a lot of sympathy. If it's their son who's going off traveling, they might be very proud of what he’s doing and rightfully so. So they just expect you to suck it up. So they come in all different flavors, but let's assume that you can keep trying and, and ask them to get involved, but their default activity is normally not to poke their nose in, especially if the mother is closer. You know so, but there are things they can do. You know, if your children are doing a project at school and, and your father-in-law's an expert on it, well, connect them. You know, it would be wonderful if they could talk about that particular topic. There, there are absolutely ways, as you just talked before, about getting them connected and they can be providing you just as much support. They could even be better support than your own parents, because they're more emotionally resilient or they come from a situation where they're used to traveling and they have a greater appreciation of your situation. So I think I just treat them the same.

Rhoda Bangerter:

And keeping in the back of our minds that they might be, that they're cautious and they might be hesitant and they may be waiting for an okay from us or like an, a door opening. And so that it's up to us to sort of maybe make the first step, or as the in-law daughter or son to sort of include them in… and maybe explaining what goes on when their son or daughter travels and when we're here, or if they're, you know, willing to listen. And also including them in that grandparent and distance grandchildren relationship.

Coming back to how distance grandparents can help with distance grandchildren. Because I think that's something that I really encourage is for the solo parent to build a team around them. Cause when their partner’s traveling, you can't expect that traveling partner to be your all in everything anyway, even if you're under the same roof and even less when they're away. So yes, you know, there are lots of creative ways to include them, but I think we also need to build a whole team around us and having distant grandparents or having grandparents is a logical family relationship anyway. And if it's possible, then how can we as distance children encourage that relationship between grandparents and grandchildren and then have creative ways of helping us as we saw our parent, with the load.

Helen Ellis:

There are lots of things. I think one of the most important things is how you as a couple talk of those elderly relatives, older relatives within the family circle, you need to always talk well of them. You can't expect little Johnny to want to talk to Nana, if Nana’s been rubbish, at the dining room table. So, you know, so we all, you know, which is just, you know, a, a very, just a natural way that one tries to conduct oneself. Do we do it perfectly all the time? No, of course not. But you know, you want to talk well and if you want to get on the FaceTime or the Skype with the grandparents, it's ‘come on guys!’, you know, ‘We're gonna do this’ and they're looking forward to it. You know, it's not, ‘Do you want to talk with Nana?’ No, that's a yes or no answer. ‘Come on. This is what we're going to do!’ Is that easy when you've had all day with the kids and you know, you cope with all the problems of the day, all by yourself. No, not necessarily easy, but you know, there are some ways that the sort of language that will mean that it's easier. But I'd have to say also that if you have troublesome parents or in-laws, then you know, maybe it is time to restrict or just lessen the communication when you're by yourself. You know, it's survival technique. You know our job as parents and grandparents, I tell them right job is to accept that this is what's happened. We set up, told our children, you can do anything, you know, you can take on the world and that's exactly what they've done. So, you know, our job is to accept. So different parents and grandparents are better at that than others. There's a judgment decision that needs to be made: whether the parents and grandparents are a real plus or a minus, you know?

Rhoda Bangerter:

Yeah. And in which case you can lessen the conversation, the communication when you're alone, if it's stressful. Then you reduce the stress. And if they are a plus, we can see those communications when they're distance communications as a way of investing in the relationship for when they do visit, because then it becomes more seamless. There's things that we can carry over from the distance communication, say a game or a toy or some sort of a show and tell that we can then translate into when they are visiting, so that that relationship carries on. So even if you know it's been a hard day and we have to be present to help our child have that communication with the grandparent, then that's an investment into, hey, you know, when the grandparent comes to visit, then that relationship will be there.

Helen Ellis:

Oh, oh absolutely. I'll tell you a quick story that happened to me today, actually. One of the things that I encourage grandparents and parents to do when they travel, you know, when they come and visit is to prepare little photo albums afterwards, just picture books, you know how you can get them printed at those, you know, photo printing places. And so you take photos when you are there of the children and ask, and then you make a photo book. Well, today my daughter sends me a text and she says that my now seven year old, who has not been here since he was about 20 months has sent a message to me. He said, ‘Please tell Nanma (that's me). Please tell Nanma to make sure that we still have the red blocks, the red building blocks. I want to know that they're here when we come and visit. He hasn't been here, as I said, since he's under two, five years, I'm going, how does he remember the red blocks? So I've just spent some time this morning, going back, looking at old photos and there is still in the play, in the play box, the toy box, a book of photos of when he came, when he was only 15 months old playing with these red blocks.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Wow. Wow. Well, he remembers them!

Helen Ellis:

He remembers them. ‘Make sure you, you haven't given them away Nanma I want to play with the red blocks.’ Wow. Both my daughter and I are blown away.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Yeah. So don't underestimate!

Helen Ellis:

Don’t underestimate! So if your parents are good at that kind of stuff, doing books before they come about things you're going to do and books, once they've come about things you did with you in the pictures. Wow, fantastic. I was blown away. He was just a little boy! There's so much they can do. Just give them the jobs that work for them. Don't ask them to do things that are just not their cup of tea, you know?

Rhoda Bangerter:

Yeah. That's a good point too. That's a good point too! Is there anything else that we can add?

Helen Ellis:

Everybody should own two copies of Rhoda’s book.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Thank you…!

Helen Ellis:

In hard copy. All right. One that stays at home with the home parent and one that goes in the suitcase for the traveling parent. It's such a good Bible. It's so fantastic. And you know, it should be covered in highlighters and little tabs and things. That is fantastic. Five love languages - fantastic. I would like to think my own book series would be handy if you want to try and encourage your each, everybody understand how it is for the other. And I'm also recommending a book called ‘It's all about relationships’ by Karen Rancourt. She is doing the forward for my son and daughter book. It is fantastic. It is just the simplest book about relationships. And it is particularly helpful if you have a difficult and more as it tells you how to categorize that relationship, put it in a box and don't feel bad about it.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Okay. Okay. So it's, that's useful. So it's about really relationships in the families or just relationships in general?

Helen Ellis:

It's relationships all over the place. But it's about conversations. What it tries to do is helps you categorize the different relationships you have with people and the difficult ones, how to deal with them so that they still continue, but your head is not circling around. So if it is important that you have a relationship with your difficult mother-in-law because your spouse wants you to and would like you to, there’s a way of doing it. Don't cause breaking up a families and things, you know, there is a way of dealing with it because you, you box that person in a protective box of how you're going to deal with them because it means a lot to your spouse. And for that reason you will do this. You're not gonna be housey wowsy talking to them every day, but you're going to be civil, you're going to be polite and you're going to turn up what needs to be turned up. Right. And that's it.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Right.

Helen Ellis:

And I talk about, I feature this in the sun daughter book because I think it's so helpful for those distance relationships that are strained, when you just, you don't want to have estrangements, you want to keep the doors open, even if they're just kind of half open.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what I love about this kind of resource is that you can apply it even if you're in a distance relationship.

Helen Ellis:

It's so good!

Rhoda Bangerter:

And that's the beautiful, because when you're in a distance relationship, you've got the relationship, but you've got the distance on top and anything that can help, even if it's at a distance. Well then that's super, you know, and that's what is helpful. That's what I'm trying to do. So thank you so much for recommending that. Fantastic! Thank you so much, Helen, for being with us today. Thank you. And I'll put in the show notes, how people can contact you. Can you maybe just give your website?

Helen Ellis:

Distance with a CE distancefamilies.com, right? There's lots of resources there. Loads of articles, links to Instagram and Facebook and all these things. So lots of free stuff and information about the books.

Rhoda Bangerter:

Fantastic. Thank you so much, Helen.

Helen Ellis:

Thank you!

Links