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Vaccines and Your Vet
Episode 6 • 9th February 2022 • Fangs & Fur • Fangs & Fur
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We welcome back Dr. Carlson from Lifetime Pet Wellness Center to talk about the pros and cons of vaccines for your pet.

As we say, vaccine wisely.


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Transcripts

Anthony:

:

Have you ever had a conversation with your vet about

Anthony:

:

vaccinating intelligently?

Danielle:

:

Today's episode is a good one, a deep dive into vaccines

Danielle:

:

between our trusted vet, Dr.

Danielle:

:

Carlson with Lifetime Pet Wellness Center and Anthony.

Danielle:

:

We have a customer question at the end of the episode, so

Danielle:

:

stay tuned.

Anthony:

:

Welcome back, Dr. Carlson.

Anthony:

:

Today we have with us, obviously from Duck from Lifetime

Anthony:

:

Pet Dr. Carlson here with us, which if you missed our

Anthony:

:

previous episode with Dr.

Anthony:

:

Carlson, you can always go back and give that a listen.

Anthony:

:

But if you have not given that a listen real briefly, I'm

Anthony:

:

just going to give you a quick, quick intro for for Dr.

Anthony:

:

Carlson. So he he received his doctorate in veteran

Anthony:

:

veterinary medicine from the Ohio State University in 1993.

Anthony:

:

And you can correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Anthony:

:

But because of his, I would say dissatisfaction with some

Anthony:

:

of the results of some Western traditional medicines.

Anthony:

:

He began exploring more integrative and holistic approaches

Anthony:

:

as far as healing and supporting the whole body.

Anthony:

:

So more or less is kind of the the origin story of Lifetime

Anthony:

:

Pet.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I would say that's accurate.

Anthony:

:

That's pretty. Yeah. I mean, in a nutshell, right?

Anthony:

:

So that brings us to today's topic of vaccines.

Anthony:

:

It's kind of this is a tough subject.

Anthony:

:

It's hard to know exactly where to start when we're talking

Anthony:

:

about talking about vaccines, but we get lots of questions

Anthony:

:

in the shop in regards to vaccines, specifically for

Anthony:

:

puppies. So that's that's a pretty it's going to be a good

Anthony:

:

starting point for us, I think.

Anthony:

:

But before we get into that, because this podcast is really

Anthony:

:

meant to be a guide for the new dog owner on how to

Anthony:

:

vaccinate intelligently and more importantly, how not to

Anthony:

:

over vaccinate. And I think that's really important.

Anthony:

:

Obviously, vaccinations are really important, right?

Anthony:

:

And there's some really

Dr. Carlson:

:

Deadly things out there.

Dr. Carlson:

:

You've got a wide range of what people believe in.

Dr. Carlson:

:

You have people who believe in no vaccines at all and you

Dr. Carlson:

:

have people who believe in all the vaccines.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And I think there's kind of a good place in the middle,

Dr. Carlson:

:

right?

Anthony:

:

Exactly. And that's where I think that's where I think

Anthony:

:

vaccinating intelligently kind of falls in.

Anthony:

:

But before we do that, I do want to kind of give a brief

Anthony:

:

history on on canine vaccines here in the United States and

Anthony:

:

specifically on DIY.

Anthony:

:

So you hear you'll hear me say do.I a few times during

Anthony:

:

this, this interview, but what I'm referring to is duration

Anthony:

:

of immunity.

Anthony:

:

But I think it's a good I just want to give a brief history

Anthony:

:

because I think it gives a good kind of background for what

Anthony:

:

your stance is on on how you guys do your protocols and

Anthony:

:

your vaccines at Lifetime Pet.

Anthony:

:

So so yeah, I'm going to go back to the nineteen seventies.

Anthony:

:

So in the 1970s, all vaccines, with the exception of

Anthony:

:

rabies, the rabies vaccines were licensed by the United

Anthony:

:

States Department of Agriculture.

Anthony:

:

So the USDA, based on challenge studies that were done a

Anthony:

:

week to a few months out.

Anthony:

:

So I think the important thing there is they were there is

Anthony:

:

no long term testing done then, right?

Anthony:

:

So it was just they had tested a week out to a few months

Anthony:

:

out as far as the duration of immunity.

Anthony:

:

So at this time, all vaccines read on their labels annual

Anthony:

:

annual revaccination recommended, meaning that all vaccines

Anthony:

:

had to be given on an annual basis.

Anthony:

:

The problem was there is really no, they didn't know how

Anthony:

:

long these vaccines this this DIY was lasting, right?

Anthony:

:

So was it a week? Was it a year?

Anthony:

:

Was it ten years? Was it a lifetime?

Anthony:

:

We just didn't know. So then that's veterinarians.

Anthony:

:

Back then we're vaccinating annually, which is kind of

Anthony:

:

interesting because I think about, you know, like pediatric

Anthony:

:

vaccines in my kids getting vaccinated and things like

Anthony:

:

that. And I'm like, you know, they get it, they get their

Anthony:

:

dose as a kids and then they're good for another 80 years.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, yeah. It's like, Well, what's going on here?

Anthony:

:

Something doesn't quite add up, but

Dr. Carlson:

:

They and of course, the manufacturers didn't really weren't

Dr. Carlson:

:

going to fight that either. So, yeah,

Anthony:

:

Well, we'll kind of get into that.

Anthony:

:

But yeah, one hundred percent, you know, in the nineteen

Anthony:

:

seventies, at the same time, there is a gentleman, a

Anthony:

:

veterinarian immunologist named Dr.

Anthony:

:

Ronald Schultz, and he's kind of like, he's kind of

Anthony:

:

considered the godfather of canine immunology.

Anthony:

:

His team began questioning this vaccine guideline of

Anthony:

:

vaccinating every year, and they began researching the do-I

Anthony:

:

of these vaccines. So his team started challenging dogs

Anthony:

:

with the exposure to distemper, adenovirus parvovirus.

Anthony:

:

And they did this from anywhere from one, I think, yeah,

Anthony:

:

one year after vaccination to 11 years after vaccination

Anthony:

:

and their results. This was a small amount of dogs, but

Anthony:

:

their results were every single dog was still protected.

Anthony:

:

So even from one year out to 11 years out, they're still

Anthony:

:

protected from

Speaker4:

:

That one vaccine. So based on

Anthony:

:

That study, at that time, his team had recommended doing a

Anthony:

:

going from annual to the tri annual schedule.

Anthony:

:

So skip ahead to 2003, the H.A.

Anthony:

:

finally decides to form a task team to investigate do-I for

Anthony:

:

these vaccines, and they found that the core vaccines had a

Anthony:

:

minimum duration of seven years.

Anthony:

:

Interesting enough, they compromised and said, OK, we don't

Anthony:

:

have to do these every year, but we'll do them every three

Anthony:

:

years. So it's really based on a compromise.

Anthony:

:

And actually one of

Speaker4:

:

The one of the members

Anthony:

:

Of that task force, team, Dr.

Anthony:

:

Richard Ford from the University of North Carolina State,

Anthony:

:

he'd come out and actually said this completely arbitrary.

Anthony:

:

I will say there is no science behind a three year

Anthony:

:

recommendation. He's saying this because the research in

Anthony:

:

the investigation showed a minimum of the seven year

Anthony:

:

protection. So the kind of wrap this history up, I try to

Anthony:

:

get through that as quickly as possible.

Anthony:

:

But by 2006, Dr.

Anthony:

:

Schwartz and his team of immunologists had completed

Anthony:

:

studies and gathered data on well over 1000 dogs, which

Anthony:

:

repeatedly showed that dogs were protected well over three

Anthony:

:

years. And. Those cases had lifetime immunity.

Anthony:

:

I know that Dr. Shultz himself also he only vaccinates his

Anthony:

:

dogs with the one shot of distemper, parvovirus and the

Anthony:

:

adenovirus and none thereafter, which I

Speaker4:

:

Think is is

Anthony:

:

Interesting because that's not what most people do, you

Anthony:

:

know? So I hope that

Dr. Carlson:

:

Kind of was not aware of

Anthony:

:

Really that he did that he vaccinated his dogs once, just

Anthony:

:

one time. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if he titers or getting

Anthony:

:

into that.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he does.

Anthony:

:

I would assume so.

Anthony:

:

So I hope that kind of sets a

Speaker4:

:

Set you up for kind of where you're at

Anthony:

:

And what your practice does as far as vaccines.

Dr. Carlson:

:

You know, and I like I said, I'm not I'm not an anti-vaxxer.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I think that what we do is we like to start off with the

Dr. Carlson:

:

with the puppy kitten series, at least to get that base

Dr. Carlson:

:

immunity going and then for four dogs.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So I actually do a titer at 20 weeks to make sure that they

Dr. Carlson:

:

responded because they're there's a small percentage of

Dr. Carlson:

:

animals that won't respond to the vaccine.

Anthony:

:

So when do you start that?

Anthony:

:

Because there's like you have those, you have the the

Anthony:

:

antibodies that are still left from the mother's, they're

Anthony:

:

passed on from the mother sometimes.

Anthony:

:

Right. So it's like a six weeks.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So you usually I mean, the minimum minimum required or

Dr. Carlson:

:

recommended, I should say, would be a series of two about

Dr. Carlson:

:

three to four weeks apart, with the last one being at 16

Dr. Carlson:

:

weeks is generally the thought.

Dr. Carlson:

:

But yeah, but they often will

Speaker4:

:

Start, you know, as early as eight weeks.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And and of course, you know, the the ones you get from the

Dr. Carlson:

:

pet stores, they've they started at eight weeks and giving

Dr. Carlson:

:

them every week thereafter, you know?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, that sort of thing, which which I think is a little

Dr. Carlson:

:

crazy

Anthony:

:

Is they're inundating their immune system at that point.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah. Well, and I think a lot of them, the the ones that

Dr. Carlson:

:

aren't managed well have a higher exposure to the pathogens

Dr. Carlson:

:

anyways, like parvo and, yeah, kennel cough and things.

Dr. Carlson:

:

We like to do that and and then from thereafter like to do

Dr. Carlson:

:

titers. So you mentioned the core vaccines.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So the core vaccines and non core vaccines, so the core

Dr. Carlson:

:

vaccines for the dog are going to be the distemper,

Dr. Carlson:

:

adenovirus hepatitis, parvovirus pair, influenza pair

Dr. Carlson:

:

influenza is kind of one in.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I don't know if I often considered a, you know, one that's

Dr. Carlson:

:

a core vaccine, but but it's in there, you know, and then

Dr. Carlson:

:

rabies

Anthony:

:

Are these, I guess, what's the word I'm looking for a

Anthony:

:

monovalent or is it a combo?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Typically, usually, usually together, usually together.

Speaker4:

:

Combo vaccine, you can get

Dr. Carlson:

:

Them, some of them separated.

Anthony:

:

Is there any benefit to that there?

Dr. Carlson:

:

There can be like if we so so if we do a titer for

Dr. Carlson:

:

distemper, paabo and hepatitis, you can get the distemper

Dr. Carlson:

:

by itself and the parvo by itself.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So oh, I see. So say, if you're you come out with a low

Dr. Carlson:

:

titer, then the one of those for one of those you could

Dr. Carlson:

:

potentially titer vaccinate for just

Anthony:

:

You could separate it out.

Anthony:

:

So, you

Dr. Carlson:

:

Know, honestly, we used to do that, but it's we had so much

Dr. Carlson:

:

that just expired that now we just booster since we don't

Dr. Carlson:

:

have. The other thing is we also limited our vaccine.

Dr. Carlson:

:

We took the left l out.

Dr. Carlson:

:

We took the corona virus out and we took those.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So it's so it's a much simpler vaccine.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So we'll we just do the DAP.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, booster.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, with our titers, if if it's low,

Anthony:

:

Oh, so they actually they included the klepto in that or

Anthony:

:

they did at one point. Yeah, or you

Dr. Carlson:

:

Can used to be like a seven way.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Well, because the adeno, the A2, so the DA to p p, the A2

Dr. Carlson:

:

is considered two things and a virus to protect against an

Dr. Carlson:

:

upper respiratory as well as hepatitis.

Anthony:

:

But I just know the klepto was it's kind of a big one.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, for some people, because it's got a lot of I think it

Anthony:

:

has the most adverse side effects.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I think it's better now because they purified the vaccines

Dr. Carlson:

:

better, but there's some still issues with the left.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Oh, sure.

Anthony:

:

Kind of depends on what your dog is doing right their

Anthony:

:

lifestyle. And and yeah, you know, what's what's their risk

Anthony:

:

of, I guess, contracting that?

Dr. Carlson:

:

And that's always the toughest because that's what we like

Dr. Carlson:

:

to do is

Speaker4:

:

To look at the lifestyle,

Dr. Carlson:

:

Look at the look at the exposure and try to minimize the

Dr. Carlson:

:

vaccines. So because and that's basically going to be the

Dr. Carlson:

:

non core vaccines, right?

Dr. Carlson:

:

So like your Bordetella, your line, your klepto, your

Dr. Carlson:

:

influenza,

Anthony:

:

Do you want to real quickly talk about like those I think it

Anthony:

:

should. I think we should touch on it kind of like the

Anthony:

:

parvovirus and the adenovirus and was one of those in

Anthony:

:

distemper, right?

Anthony:

:

Just like the the seriousness of those three, I think

Anthony:

:

that's why you know, the core vaccines.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, but most people don't know what they are.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Distemper is can often be fatal.

Dr. Carlson:

:

It causes neurologic issues and immune issues.

Dr. Carlson:

:

The adenovirus is mostly the the hepatitis, which causes

Dr. Carlson:

:

liver failure, right?

Dr. Carlson:

:

And then the parvovirus is the one, of course, wipes out

Dr. Carlson:

:

this. Small intestine, those are potentially fatal viruses,

Dr. Carlson:

:

so sure, those and then of course, rabies is the other core

Dr. Carlson:

:

and that's can is considered a if there's no vaccination on

Dr. Carlson:

:

board and no treatment done is 100 percent fatal.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And the part of a parvovirus with the right situation can

Dr. Carlson:

:

last. I think it's up to two years on the environment, the

Dr. Carlson:

:

right

Speaker4:

:

Conditions so people come into

Anthony:

:

The shop and they might have their dog out in the car or

Anthony:

:

their puppy out in the car in that case.

Anthony:

:

Do you think it's OK to bring my dog in the shop?

Anthony:

:

You know, he's not completely caught up with all his

Anthony:

:

vaccines yet, but I don't know.

Anthony:

:

What's your thought on that?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Well, it's generally considered the last series of vaccines

Dr. Carlson:

:

is is

Speaker4:

:

When they're fully protected.

Speaker4:

:

So.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So will. Yeah.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And I think actually, I think Dr Schulz said that that last

Dr. Carlson:

:

one. So I may have misspoken.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I think he said even 14 weeks for that last one.

Dr. Carlson:

:

But just how I've been brought up, I've just always done it

Dr. Carlson:

:

at 16 weeks.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yes, when I was 16, so that's what I'm comfortable with.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So we'll consider them up to date at that point.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And then they're they're protected against those viruses.

Dr. Carlson:

:

But you know, a lot of puppy training classes will want

Dr. Carlson:

:

them to start sooner than that.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So I what I tell people, as long as the puppy class who's

Dr. Carlson:

:

ever running type of class requires the same amount of

Dr. Carlson:

:

vaccines and you're looking diligently for any kind of

Dr. Carlson:

:

issues like the puppy starts spewing diarrhea.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, you might want to get your puppy.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, yeah. This is common sense.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, or yeah, but walks around the neighborhood.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I mean, that can be dangerous, potentially because we

Dr. Carlson:

:

talked about the parvovirus being out there for potentially

Dr. Carlson:

:

two years.

Anthony:

:

So I guess you just got to weigh your risks because it's

Anthony:

:

kind of also crucial like socialization pictures, you know,

Anthony:

:

during that time.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So not just humans, but other dogs, you just got to be

Dr. Carlson:

:

smart.

Anthony:

:

What made me think of the puppy?

Anthony:

:

When you're talking about puppy classes, I'm thinking of

Anthony:

:

the like Bordetella

Speaker4:

:

Is one that a lot of

Anthony:

:

Boarding facilities and

Speaker4:

:

Places are requiring, and

Dr. Carlson:

:

Least.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, but the board itself is like one of the least from

Anthony:

:

from my understanding, when the least effective vaccines.

Anthony:

:

Essentially, you're essentially you're vaccinating for the

Anthony:

:

common cold, right for the dog.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, I think I think there is some.

Dr. Carlson:

:

It's not 100 percent vaccine, no vaccine is 100 percent, so

Dr. Carlson:

:

that's kind of a toughie because fatality from Bordetella

Dr. Carlson:

:

is pretty is not real common, and usually it's much older

Dr. Carlson:

:

pets or pets or they get

Anthony:

:

Pneumonia or something.

Dr. Carlson:

:

It's more it's more of an inconvenience and hassle for the

Dr. Carlson:

:

client to have to deal with it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Well, the reason why I even yeah, in the pet's miserable,

Dr. Carlson:

:

you know? Sure.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, yeah.

Anthony:

:

We get a lot of pet parents that come in saying that their

Anthony:

:

dog had like this year.

Anthony:

:

I don't know if you saw this. There's a big kennel

Speaker4:

:

Cough like outbreak, at least in my

Anthony:

:

Eyes. It was because everyone came in.

Anthony:

:

It was saying like, Hey, my dogs got kennel coffees in the

Speaker4:

:

Car or whatever. But it's interesting because

Anthony:

:

Almost all of them are vaccinated for kennel cough.

Anthony:

:

From what I understand, it's kind of like a combination of

Anthony:

:

like bacteria and viruses together.

Anthony:

:

Just like it's hard to it's hard to really create a vaccine

Anthony:

:

for something that's so has so many various parts to it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bordetella Bronk Aseptic and other viruses

Dr. Carlson:

:

with it we do require in our boarding side of it, we do

Dr. Carlson:

:

require that and require influenza, which I don't like.

Dr. Carlson:

:

But we have to, you know, when influenza the first

Dr. Carlson:

:

influenza came out, don't even ask me the numbers on each

Dr. Carlson:

:

end, you know, h three and h.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Sure, whatever. Yeah, yeah, I can't keep those straight,

Dr. Carlson:

:

but because there's two of them now.

Dr. Carlson:

:

But when the first one came out, everybody was starting to

Dr. Carlson:

:

require them and we never required it because it never hit

Dr. Carlson:

:

our area. And at least in major numbers and they did.

Dr. Carlson:

:

They did studies in greyhounds down in Florida, at the

Dr. Carlson:

:

Greyhound tracks. Yeah, and found a huge number of them

Dr. Carlson:

:

were positive, had positive antibodies toward the virus, so

Dr. Carlson:

:

they had been exposed.

Anthony:

:

But none of them has symptoms.

Anthony:

:

Very, very

Dr. Carlson:

:

Few of them had symptoms.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah. So my point was, OK, well, why do we even vaccinate

Dr. Carlson:

:

for this? So I never required it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And then the second one hit and that one started wiping out

Dr. Carlson:

:

kennels and animals were dying from it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

You know, they they had a high number of fatalities.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So that's when I started researching it.

Anthony:

:

So yeah, well, that makes sense.

Dr. Carlson:

:

But yeah, I don't like it.

Speaker4:

:

I mean, I think

Anthony:

:

It's just sounds like a smart thing to do if it has a high

Anthony:

:

fatality or higher fatality

Speaker4:

:

Rate. When you think of

Dr. Carlson:

:

The vaccine, there are different components of the vaccine,

Dr. Carlson:

:

so you've got the component that you're trying to create

Dr. Carlson:

:

immunity to. So that might be a fraction of the virus or

Dr. Carlson:

:

the or the bacteria.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And then you've got what are called adjuvants, which

Dr. Carlson:

:

they've tried to take out of cat vaccines because that's

Dr. Carlson:

:

my, you know, cats are starting to get injection site

Dr. Carlson:

:

sarcomas, and they think that that played the role in that.

Anthony:

:

Is that why they made it? There's this rumor that I've heard

Anthony:

:

that that's why they moved it from the injection site, from

Anthony:

:

the back of the neck to the leg.

Anthony:

:

Oh yeah, because they can't amputate the head, you can

Anthony:

:

amputate the leg. Yeah, yeah, that's that's legit.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, that's kind of scary.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, it is. It is.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Luckily, I boy, I haven't seen I was just telling a client.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I haven't seen one of those for years and years and years.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So oh, good.

Anthony:

:

So you think that's something to do with the adjuvants like,

Anthony:

:

yeah, they change something up there, too?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, they they changed the rabies vaccine from adjuvanted

Dr. Carlson:

:

to a recombinant where they they cut a piece of the rabies

Dr. Carlson:

:

vaccine. That rabies virus put it onto a canary pox virus,

Dr. Carlson:

:

and that's what you're injecting.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So that one's the only believe that's the only modified

Dr. Carlson:

:

live rabies vaccine that exists.

Dr. Carlson:

:

The other all the others are killed.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Virus particles?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah. So but they're able to do that.

Dr. Carlson:

:

The modified live means it's in their, you know, must be

Dr. Carlson:

:

replicating a better duration or better immunity.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Although it's only labeled for one year, they do.

Dr. Carlson:

:

They do have a three year labeling, but we never we decided

Dr. Carlson:

:

after researching it not to carry that one, but well,

Dr. Carlson:

:

because they tripled the price.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So they we're going to call it a three year vaccine, but

Dr. Carlson:

:

we're going to triple the price and we saw on.

Dr. Carlson:

:

There's a there's a network that we, you know, the medical

Dr. Carlson:

:

network that you can go on have a membership to, and we

Dr. Carlson:

:

noticed that there are a lot of comments about cats acting

Dr. Carlson:

:

funny after getting it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

With that in mind, we just decided not not to do that one.

Anthony:

:

What if I mean, if you have like, I don't know, since we're

Anthony:

:

talking about cats, I know we weren't planning on it.

Anthony:

:

But like most cats are indoor cats like they're never

Anthony:

:

really made their chances of coming across.

Anthony:

:

Coming across rabies are very slim, and they're usually not

Anthony:

:

being reported either, you know, or around other cats or, I

Anthony:

:

don't know. No.

Dr. Carlson:

:

There are cases, you know, you hear the cases and we had one

Dr. Carlson:

:

at one of the clinics I used to work at where a bat got

Dr. Carlson:

:

into the house. Ok, Cat played with bat that was sent to

Dr. Carlson:

:

the state turned out to be rabies positive.

Anthony:

:

It can't happen.

Dr. Carlson:

:

It can. But it's yeah, it's unlikely.

Dr. Carlson:

:

It is rare, but yeah, plus you don't know.

Dr. Carlson:

:

A lot of it is social protection to get, you know, in case

Dr. Carlson:

:

your cat gets out.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So, so the other thing with those these vaccines, too.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So you've got the components of them.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Some of those adjuvants have heavy metals and aluminum,

Dr. Carlson:

:

mercury, you know, whatever.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And we pick, we're able to pick that up on the nutrition

Dr. Carlson:

:

response testing. We can find that often.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So an offset that, yeah, a lot of a lot of animals come up

Dr. Carlson:

:

with with aluminum or mercury and that they still pretty.

Dr. Carlson:

:

They're so pretty.

Anthony:

:

So putting that in to vaccines?

Anthony:

:

Mm hmm. Ok.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Oh yeah. Yeah, I read about the get go, but it's hard to get

Dr. Carlson:

:

the information from the vaccine companies to I'm sure it

Dr. Carlson:

:

is. I wanted to get the only one I know, and that's the we

Dr. Carlson:

:

used the thimerosal free or mercury free rabies vaccine,

Dr. Carlson:

:

and that's the one that they used for the Rabies Challenge

Dr. Carlson:

:

Fund.

Speaker4:

:

One of the two and I and I like it.

Speaker4:

:

Yeah, it's

Dr. Carlson:

:

There in there. So I have clients ask me, where did they get

Dr. Carlson:

:

that? Well, probably the vaccine,

Anthony:

:

But that's not so. The one that you use is not the one

Anthony:

:

that's that's paired with the Canary.

Anthony:

:

That's the that's the cap.

Anthony:

:

That's the feeling. That's a feline version.

Anthony:

:

So what's the dog version?

Anthony:

:

The dog,

Dr. Carlson:

:

The dog version is still killed, OK?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Vaccine. But it's but it's the thimerosal free and

Anthony:

:

That one you can titer for.

Anthony:

:

But it still doesn't,

Speaker4:

:

At least in the state of

Anthony:

:

Ohio. I actually it's by county, I believe, right?

Anthony:

:

But with that, you can titer for it, but you even a

Anthony:

:

positive titer will not.

Anthony:

:

There's there's still Fauci to not Fauci to take, but they

Anthony:

:

still, if you want to get your dog licensed through the

Anthony:

:

state, you have to have that right

Dr. Carlson:

:

That three year. Yeah, they they that's the I mean, the one

Dr. Carlson:

:

nice thing is that the cost of the rabies titer has gone

Dr. Carlson:

:

down. So Kansas, Kansas states the only place that does it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah.

Anthony:

:

Saw that on my last invoice sent to Kansas State.

Anthony:

:

Yeah.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So but that used to be like they used to be about $300.

Dr. Carlson:

:

It was it was crazy.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So they came up with a better test that they could do on a

Dr. Carlson:

:

higher scale, right?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Although it still takes a month to get back.

Dr. Carlson:

:

But you know, that's used often for export to Hawaii to

Dr. Carlson:

:

hand, you know, different countries, Spain, a bunch of the

Dr. Carlson:

:

the the other countries will require it, but we still don't

Dr. Carlson:

:

recognize it as something.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And from what

Anthony:

:

I think Rhode Island is a first

Dr. Carlson:

:

Date. I would just say Delaware, Delaware state of Delaware,

Dr. Carlson:

:

one of those looking did they passed that?

Anthony:

:

I think they did, because I think the hope was that it would

Anthony:

:

kind of create a, you know, open the floodgates for the

Anthony:

:

rest of the country to do the same.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So we were looking at is the state of Delaware just was

Dr. Carlson:

:

talking about using a rabies vaccine titer in place of the

Dr. Carlson:

:

vaccine. Yeah.

Anthony:

:

So if your dog tested positive on the titer test, what

Anthony:

:

should we probably talk about?

Anthony:

:

What titer tests are people?

Anthony:

:

A lot of people? Oh, that's true.

Anthony:

:

Most people don't know what titer tests.

Anthony:

:

As a matter of fact, they call it teeter a lot.

Anthony:

:

But yeah, the tighter test.

Anthony:

:

So what exactly is what exactly is a tighter test?

Dr. Carlson:

:

So tighter, tighter test is is a blood test, and what you're

Dr. Carlson:

:

doing is measuring the antibodies toward that certain

Dr. Carlson:

:

antigen or that thing that we're trying to vaccinate

Dr. Carlson:

:

against. So we typically titers are run for distemper.

Dr. Carlson:

:

The virus to which is hepatitis and parvovirus titers

Dr. Carlson:

:

typically aren't done for the for the non core like klepto

Dr. Carlson:

:

and Bordetella in those things.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Is there a

Anthony:

:

Way to do that if you want it to like

Dr. Carlson:

:

You can? But I've done every time I've done klepto, they

Dr. Carlson:

:

come out low. So here's the interesting thing about titers

Dr. Carlson:

:

too, though. So it was Dr.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Schultz who came up with the idea that we could use those

Dr. Carlson:

:

titers in lieu of the of the vaccines.

Dr. Carlson:

:

He also.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So, so that was it could be, you know, you were hearing all

Dr. Carlson:

:

kinds of things from manufacturers.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Oh, no, you can't use that.

Dr. Carlson:

:

You can't do that. They still there's breakthroughs.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And he proved that you could you could use that titer.

Dr. Carlson:

:

He also came up.

Dr. Carlson:

:

With some kind of although I can't find the information, I

Dr. Carlson:

:

just heard it on, another recording about him was that he

Dr. Carlson:

:

found a way to tighter the the mother, the dam.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I call it the dam when she's pregnant and get her antibody

Dr. Carlson:

:

level, and then that'll tell.

Dr. Carlson:

:

He was able to come up with some kind of formula as to when

Dr. Carlson:

:

to start doing the boosters on the puppies once the born.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I don't know how to how to do that or where to find that or

Dr. Carlson:

:

right, but this man is kind of a vaccine genius.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah. And actually, I was going to say, you know, once they

Dr. Carlson:

:

came out with that study we used to do and originally where

Dr. Carlson:

:

we were doing titers, we were doing it every single year.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So now what we do is we do a titer.

Anthony:

:

Oh no, you guys are doing titers every year.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, we were like during the annual vaccines or

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, they this was this was years ago.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, before the this new the new protocols came out and I

Dr. Carlson:

:

said,

Anthony:

:

But still, I guess my point is that most I don't think most

Anthony:

:

people are doing that. I mean, for most dog owners now,

Anthony:

:

that's a brand new concept.

Anthony:

:

Yeah.

Dr. Carlson:

:

You know, I mean, I got the idea from my buddy Bob Gaston

Dr. Carlson:

:

done Cincinnati because he he tuned me into that.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So now we do.

Dr. Carlson:

:

If you were if if the dog was technically due for a three

Dr. Carlson:

:

year vaccine, if we do a titer, we count.

Dr. Carlson:

:

The titer is three years now.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So we've been able we've decided to space those out and

Dr. Carlson:

:

just count them like the same length of doing them every

Dr. Carlson:

:

year.

Anthony:

:

Does it matter where they test on that titer scale?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Because what I understand from what Dr.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Schultz was saying, that any kind of response is a

Dr. Carlson:

:

response, right?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Some places like we do an in-house, which is just a color

Dr. Carlson:

:

gradient. If you send it out to Michigan State, you'll get

Dr. Carlson:

:

a no say, one to two hundred and fifteen or something like

Dr. Carlson:

:

that, and they arbitrarily will set a number as to OK

Dr. Carlson:

:

anything above one to 16 or one to thirty two or whatever

Dr. Carlson:

:

is protective. But yeah, from what I understand, from what

Dr. Carlson:

:

Dr. Schultz was saying, that any value you get back means

Dr. Carlson:

:

that you have immunity there.

Dr. Carlson:

:

You have what are called memory cells sitting there ready

Dr. Carlson:

:

to respond.

Anthony:

:

I've heard this even if they don't test positively, they

Anthony:

:

still could have where they B cells that remember how to

Anthony:

:

create these antibodies.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, so that trust that.

Anthony:

:

But I'm just saying that's a possibility.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, and that's that's the one.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So titers, if you have a positive number.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Mm hmm. You've got protection.

Dr. Carlson:

:

If you have a negative number, that's where you just kind

Dr. Carlson:

:

of have to draw the line.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And that's where we say, OK, that's when we re booster.

Dr. Carlson:

:

But there could be memory cells sitting there in the body

Dr. Carlson:

:

that just aren't producing antibodies.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So if if, say, say it to parvovirus, all of a sudden you

Dr. Carlson:

:

have a negative titer to parvovirus and your pet goes out

Dr. Carlson:

:

and gets exposed, virus enters the body.

Dr. Carlson:

:

All of a sudden, those memory cells turn on and blam.

Dr. Carlson:

:

You've got all these antibodies being produced to fight off

Dr. Carlson:

:

the infection. So that's so it's still it's not 100

Dr. Carlson:

:

percent, but there's no way the only way to truly prove it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

If you have a negative titer.

Dr. Carlson:

:

The only real way to prove if you then need the vaccine is

Dr. Carlson:

:

to do a challenge test where you would

Speaker4:

:

Challenge them, then see if

Dr. Carlson:

:

The titer comes back. But that's impractical.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So so our

Anthony:

:

Titers are you? Is it a.

Anthony:

:

Is it a challenge? Like, are you exposing a blood to the

Anthony:

:

actual virus or is it more of a testing antibodies?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Just just antibodies.

Anthony:

:

It's just OK, which seems sufficient.

Dr. Carlson:

:

The thing that the thing that bugs me is that the feline so

Dr. Carlson:

:

you can do a titer for the feline, but they're super

Dr. Carlson:

:

expensive and they they they're used to.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So we have an in-house test kit that we use for for the

Dr. Carlson:

:

Dappy, for dogs.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, but the feline went out for some reason went off the

Dr. Carlson:

:

market. And that was a nice way of testing it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

You know, less expensive because you I mean, you'll pay

Dr. Carlson:

:

over over 80 bucks for four one one of the antigens, just

Dr. Carlson:

:

one antigen. That's frustrating for cats because I'd love

Dr. Carlson:

:

to have an option for cats.

Anthony:

:

Yeah. So she's just being like at their size, you know, it's

Anthony:

:

kind of decrease that

Speaker4:

:

Toxic load a little bit.

Speaker4:

:

Why do you think that? Why do you

Anthony:

:

Think they took that? So you can't if you wanted to titer

Anthony:

:

your cat right now, there's no way they're doing it or it's

Anthony:

:

just really expensive.

Dr. Carlson:

:

You can do it, but it's just really expensive.

Dr. Carlson:

:

It's really

Anthony:

:

Expensive. So with Dr.

Anthony:

:

Schultz's research,

Speaker4:

:

I think he had. So he did.

Anthony:

:

Distemper, parvovirus and adenovirus all had seven years die

Anthony:

:

from the challenge.

Anthony:

:

So exposing dogs to the disease, they were still protected

Anthony:

:

after seven years.

Anthony:

:

The serology. Am I saying that right?

Anthony:

:

Serology so testing antibodies, this temper was 15 years.

Anthony:

:

Parvovirus was seven, adenovirus was nine and then canine

Anthony:

:

rabies was seven.

Anthony:

:

Interesting enough, canine rabies was only three years with

Anthony:

:

the challenge, though

Speaker4:

:

Seven years through the antibody

Anthony:

:

Test.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, they had the.

Dr. Carlson:

:

That was interesting, too, because I thought that test

Dr. Carlson:

:

you're talking about the Rabies Challenge Fund test that

Dr. Carlson:

:

went on, and I thought I thought it literally went on

Dr. Carlson:

:

longer than what it did until I researched it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And but they did.

Dr. Carlson:

:

They did show well, they had to.

Dr. Carlson:

:

They had two vaccines.

Dr. Carlson:

:

One of the vaccines went off the market.

Dr. Carlson:

:

In the middle of the study.

Dr. Carlson:

:

For some reason, either either a, you know, you've got

Dr. Carlson:

:

companies buying each other out and stuff.

Dr. Carlson:

:

It could have been just something that was discontinued

Dr. Carlson:

:

because somebody bought somebody or it could have been just

Dr. Carlson:

:

that they weren't making the money on it or whatever.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Some financial thing, I'm sure so,

Speaker4:

:

But they

Dr. Carlson:

:

Showed they. So that first vaccine, that one, it didn't.

Dr. Carlson:

:

It didn't. The trial didn't run right.

Dr. Carlson:

:

But with the other one, the thimerosal free went and they

Dr. Carlson:

:

they showed it at least last about five years, possibly.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I think it went to six and then at seven, they started

Dr. Carlson:

:

getting failure.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Of protection, I think at six years they still had 80 some

Dr. Carlson:

:

percent protection or I don't know something, except I'm

Anthony:

:

Looking at it right now, says

Speaker4:

:

The goal of the Rabies Challenge

Anthony:

:

Fund Charitable Trust is to extend the league at the legally

Anthony:

:

required interval for rabies boosters to five.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, and then seven years by financing the current five to

Anthony:

:

seven year rabies challenge studies that would be the

Anthony:

:

University of Wisconsin. Yeah.

Dr. Carlson:

:

The concern I have is just that the manufacturers aren't

Dr. Carlson:

:

going to want to. Give that that income up.

Anthony:

:

Well, that's yeah, I mean, well, you know, I think it's

Anthony:

:

funny in this article I was reading there talking about the

Anthony:

:

sponsors of the A.J., you know, Merck, Pfizer.

Anthony:

:

You know, it's like, Well, wait a second, there's a little

Anthony:

:

conflict of interest there, you know?

Anthony:

:

Yeah, there's a financial reason to to not want to extend

Anthony:

:

the I mean, even if you looked at like, why weren't they

Anthony:

:

doing testing in the beginning, you know, when they're back

Anthony:

:

in the day when in the 70s and during these annual

Anthony:

:

vaccinations, like why wouldn't they test longer than a few

Anthony:

:

months? Good question.

Anthony:

:

You know, I mean, I think it's kind of started then like,

Anthony:

:

why wouldn't there? Obviously, there's some financial well.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And when I first got out of vet school to, you know, that

Dr. Carlson:

:

was

Speaker4:

:

You gave the whole list

Dr. Carlson:

:

To the client of all the vaccines that you know, you have

Dr. Carlson:

:

for a dog or for a cat.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And that's it really wasn't looked at.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Ok, what situation do you have?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Right? It was just pushed.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, you just pushed.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And then and then, boy, that's we really have to give Dr.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Schultz some praise for changing that because, you know, we

Dr. Carlson:

:

started. I mean, I think one of the big reasons, the two

Dr. Carlson:

:

big reasons why it really changed was and it had to because

Dr. Carlson:

:

you start seeing a lot of autoimmune disease in dogs and

Dr. Carlson:

:

you started seeing the injection site sarcoma.

Dr. Carlson:

:

As with cats,

Anthony:

:

I still think that you're very, very different than most,

Anthony:

:

according to this article I was reading.

Anthony:

:

It says 60 percent of vets are still 60 percent of vets

Anthony:

:

today still vaccinate more often than FHA guidelines.

Anthony:

:

They're still vaccinated more than three times or more,

Anthony:

:

vaccinating more than every three years.

Anthony:

:

Hmm. Yeah. Well, that's a large

Dr. Carlson:

:

Number that is a large number.

Anthony:

:

So that's why I was shocked that you were doing

Speaker4:

:

Titers even way back

Anthony:

:

When, you know, before it was the thing.

Anthony:

:

I feel like it's like a thing now because I have people

Anthony:

:

that come in the shop all the time and ask me, what what?

Anthony:

:

What do I know about titers?

Dr. Carlson:

:

And I think that was I started somewhere around 2005, 2006.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, that's when I bet I met my buddy, and that's when we

Dr. Carlson:

:

both decided to go to the institute and learn acupuncture.

Anthony:

:

Oh, nice. Yeah, I could almost guarantee none of my dogs

Anthony:

:

growing up. Every time my parents had no idea what a tide

Anthony:

:

of test was.

Speaker4:

:

And our,

Dr. Carlson:

:

Well, our dogs used to eat a lot differently too, you

Anthony:

:

Know? Yeah.

Anthony:

:

Don't get me on that right? Yeah.

Anthony:

:

I'm little Roy. My my dad is feeding right now, though.

Anthony:

:

Yeah. Hey, nice. I found a nice.

Anthony:

:

It's primoz pronto because it's super easy.

Anthony:

:

It's like frozen kibble, essentially.

Anthony:

:

Well, I don't want to say that because it's raw food, but

Anthony:

:

it's you just keep it in your freezer and scoop and feed

Anthony:

:

kind of thing. Defrost really quick because it's really

Anthony:

:

small. Nice.

Anthony:

:

So for this, are you carrying that?

Anthony:

:

There's Boomers? It's a good we do.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, we carry it for a few people that just like the ease

Anthony:

:

of it, you know? Well, that's a great thing.

Anthony:

:

We have so many good options for for feeding the species

Anthony:

:

appropriate diet now.

Speaker4:

:

You know, for most

Anthony:

:

Veterinarians, you're going to get the whole enamored with

Anthony:

:

all the vaccines, right?

Anthony:

:

But I think it's yeah, I think kind of you've got to look

Anthony:

:

at the, you know, is your how much is your puppy at risk

Anthony:

:

for some of these, you know, and the efficacy of these

Anthony:

:

vaccines, and I'm I'm trying to make this easy for them to

Anthony:

:

follow when they're going to their vet to get their puppies

Anthony:

:

vaccinated, making sure.

Anthony:

:

So starting at I can't remember now was a six weeks.

Speaker4:

:

Six weeks was the

Anthony:

:

First

Speaker4:

:

You can and then

Anthony:

:

You're you're caught up by 16 weeks, you're done by 16

Anthony:

:

weeks.

Dr. Carlson:

:

We are like I said, I think Dr.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Schultz said 14.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I think it's 14. But yeah,

Anthony:

:

Well, I don't think there's any harm in spreading it out,

Speaker4:

:

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And we try to go as far.

Dr. Carlson:

:

We try to go four weeks between each one.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I don't like doing the. That's just us.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, but that makes sense.

Anthony:

:

Spreading it out, yeah, and then tightening

Speaker4:

:

For the specific ones individually

Anthony:

:

To see which ones they need a booster.

Anthony:

:

Right? I think a lot of times

Speaker4:

:

People, I feel like you don't

Anthony:

:

Even realize this, but I think most vets just they're just

Anthony:

:

going, they're just going to do the booster anyways,

Anthony:

:

regardless of the. Well, they probably aren't even tiring,

Anthony:

:

right?

Dr. Carlson:

:

So we still have a lot of people who have who who do the

Dr. Carlson:

:

vaccine because it's cheaper,

Speaker4:

:

It's cheap and even tighter.

Speaker4:

:

But that's crazy to me.

Speaker4:

:

I think it's going to be a

Dr. Carlson:

:

Market driven thing too, though.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Supply and demand, if you if there's more demand as people

Dr. Carlson:

:

start doing more of them, sure, then I would I would hope

Dr. Carlson:

:

that that would drive the price down, kind of like the

Dr. Carlson:

:

rabies titer. There used to be whatever.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And now it's yeah, as like three hundred or the price or $3

Dr. Carlson:

:

price or whatever.

Speaker4:

:

Right. Well, that's good to know.

Anthony:

:

I think that's I think that's a good start.

Anthony:

:

You know, the importance of this core vaccines, adenovirus,

Anthony:

:

parvovirus, influenza and distemper.

Anthony:

:

So getting those getting that that round of vaccines and

Anthony:

:

then, you know, doing the titer test for those individual

Anthony:

:

viruses to see which ones they need the booster on.

Anthony:

:

And then from there you would just be doing a tighter what,

Anthony:

:

three years from that point?

Anthony:

:

Or maybe the next year, when would be the next time to do a

Anthony:

:

titer?

Dr. Carlson:

:

We would do it if if the if the patient was due for a one

Dr. Carlson:

:

year, if that yeah, if the DPE vaccine would have been a

Dr. Carlson:

:

one year, then we'll count the titer for one year.

Dr. Carlson:

:

That's just we just and that makes it easier for us, but

Dr. Carlson:

:

still allows us to space those titers out so we don't have

Dr. Carlson:

:

to do them every year. And again, that's just what we do.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And I don't know if you want to go over the just the the

Dr. Carlson:

:

non-core vaccine.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Sure, quick.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, let's let's knock them out.

Dr. Carlson:

:

They so, so the non-core.

Dr. Carlson:

:

For the the dog we kind of touched on it earlier was is the

Dr. Carlson:

:

as the Bordetella, the influenza, the long lap time.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And there's some others out there in other parts of the

Dr. Carlson:

:

country that we don't use here.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I think there's a rattlesnake on and there's some others.

Anthony:

:

There is. We thought I thought about doing it when we're not

Anthony:

:

to Joe because we still live in California and we we went

Anthony:

:

out to, where do we go?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Joshua Tree, is that a real place?

Dr. Carlson:

:

I thought it was just a U-2 spot.

Anthony:

:

I think they got their inspo from.

Anthony:

:

I'll tell you, Well, I'll be honest with you.

Anthony:

:

They did. Yeah, we got their inspiration, I think, from

Anthony:

:

Joshua Tree. But I thought it was very inspirational.

Anthony:

:

Is that the right word?

Anthony:

:

I don't know. It's too bad, but I mean, if you go to

Anthony:

:

yellow, if you go to Yellowstone, you go to, you know,

Anthony:

:

Teton National Park. These national parks like, Wow, this

Anthony:

:

is incredible. And then you go to Joshua Tree and it just

Anthony:

:

looks like mounds of clay.

Anthony:

:

I'm going to really piss some people off saying that, but

Anthony:

:

it just wasn't mine. Now we've got a really good Airbnb

Anthony:

:

there. That was really cool.

Anthony:

:

And. But this is why I think, oh, we did the horseback and

Anthony:

:

the lady was talking about how they only have like a

Anthony:

:

certain set, maybe these weren't even vaccines they made a

Anthony:

:

certain number of some you have like

Dr. Carlson:

:

Antivenom,

Anthony:

:

Antivenom. Yeah, and they only had a certain amount, but it

Anthony:

:

was, you know, within it was too far away.

Anthony:

:

By the time you could get it your dog, they're most likely

Anthony:

:

to be dead. Yeah, that's not good.

Anthony:

:

It's a tough environment for dogs out there because I think

Anthony:

:

it happens a lot to that and mountain lions.

Speaker4:

:

Another problem we have to worry about that here.

Anthony:

:

I don't think I don't think there's rattlesnakes here.

Anthony:

:

Maybe. Yeah, well, I know the lime.

Anthony:

:

Mozzie has never been vaccinated for Lyme disease.

Anthony:

:

He's had lots of ticks.

Anthony:

:

But I've also read that it's a large amount.

Anthony:

:

And don't quote me on this. But I want to say like over 90

Anthony:

:

percent of dogs that had Lyme disease didn't show any

Anthony:

:

symptoms.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Most vets will test for it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

It's in the heartworm test.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, no.

Anthony:

:

Ok. Oh, so I guess he has been tested for.

Dr. Carlson:

:

But but even if there's even if there's no symptoms, yeah,

Dr. Carlson:

:

the there there supposedly is data that shows that they

Dr. Carlson:

:

have a higher risk of getting kidney failure down the road,

Dr. Carlson:

:

according to what what they told me at IDEX.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I also have heard from people.

Dr. Carlson:

:

We'll we'll do it if there's a real high tech exposure.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, but I've also heard from other people that they're

Dr. Carlson:

:

they're not convinced that it works because there's so many

Dr. Carlson:

:

strains. Oh, OK.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I don't know which I didn't know either.

Anthony:

:

So I know it's a serious problem.

Anthony:

:

I know it's a serious problem with humans when humans get

Anthony:

:

it. Yeah, and it's a hard diagnosis, I believe.

Anthony:

:

Yeah. As far as knowing I have a couple of friends have had

Anthony:

:

it or have it just didn't know for a long time it felt

Anthony:

:

crummy, you know, for years.

Dr. Carlson:

:

There's there's a vet that I know some people may know his

Dr. Carlson:

:

name, Marty Goldstein, and I went out to his practice, you

Dr. Carlson:

:

know, when he was out in New York and I saw more positive

Dr. Carlson:

:

Lyme test results than I had ever seen in my life in New

Dr. Carlson:

:

York. Like, yeah, like Stax is like upstate New York.

Dr. Carlson:

:

He he's like 20 minutes from Lyme, Connecticut, I thought

Dr. Carlson:

:

he said, OK, he's right on the border, on the border, so

Dr. Carlson:

:

highly

Anthony:

:

Forested area ish.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Um, I think it's got a lot of natural area.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they said that they don't recommend

Dr. Carlson:

:

the lime. Oh, really?

Dr. Carlson:

:

At least at that time.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, that's been a while.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I mean, it's been. Well, when was that?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Ten years ago I went. Hmm.

Dr. Carlson:

:

They he's the one who told me that, that they don't

Dr. Carlson:

:

recommend the vaccine because there's so many strains.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I don't know.

Anthony:

:

Do you guys? Give it off dinner, just kind of.

Dr. Carlson:

:

No, no, not very often.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, it doesn't sound like it. And the other thing is to

Dr. Carlson:

:

so you get the.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So all these all these non-core got to be based on their

Dr. Carlson:

:

their exposure.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Right? And are you going to be able to pick up, you know,

Dr. Carlson:

:

be able to determine every minute of your pet's life and

Dr. Carlson:

:

their exposure? No.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So at some point you're kind of it's a judgment call.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, I will say that Moses had lots of ticks in his day,

Anthony:

:

and I don't think he's been tested for.

Anthony:

:

Apparently, he's been tested for Lyme disease and I don't

Anthony:

:

think he's had any issues with it.

Anthony:

:

But I, you know, I think it's also being a I'm also very

Anthony:

:

cautious about, if you know, we move back here, for

Anthony:

:

example, I remember we took the dogs to Glacier Ridge Park,

Anthony:

:

which was just littered with ticks, by the way.

Anthony:

:

And yeah, we were put ticks off in for a while, but I think

Anthony:

:

it takes work. What if you can find it within, if you can

Anthony:

:

get them out within 48 to say it takes about, what, 48 to

Anthony:

:

72 hours, I think is your time frame before they can

Anthony:

:

transmit disease?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Right?

Anthony:

:

So I think, you know, just got to pet your dog a lot.

Anthony:

:

Make sure that ticks on them, you know?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Well, the line, the Lyme tick is pretty small.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, I mean, as an adult, it's maybe like three

Dr. Carlson:

:

milliliters. Uh huh..

Dr. Carlson:

:

I just excrete tiny.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, but when they start feeding, yeah, hopefully you can

Anthony:

:

find them within that. Yeah, hopefully it's is a small

Anthony:

:

window, but you know, yeah, it ticks.

Anthony:

:

Ticks are nasty. They're no joke.

Anthony:

:

So that's the that's the Lyme vaccine.

Anthony:

:

And then klepto.

Anthony:

:

What do you get from that?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah. Klepto comes from urine, it's shed in the urine of

Dr. Carlson:

:

infected animals, and they're there about nine different

Dr. Carlson:

:

strains that affect small animal.

Dr. Carlson:

:

At least last time I checked.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, it might be bigger now.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, but the vaccine only protects against four.

Dr. Carlson:

:

All of those and they're supposedly not much

Dr. Carlson:

:

cross-protection to the other five.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So so there are some issues with the vaccine, but.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And depending on who you talk

Speaker4:

:

To, you know, there's there's a

Dr. Carlson:

:

Phase of natural immunity when a disease comes on.

Dr. Carlson:

:

That it's over time, the organisms that it's so so your

Dr. Carlson:

:

pets, dogs or cats or humans or whatever it's trying to

Dr. Carlson:

:

infect, they're going to start mounting resistance to it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

The disease is going to naturally taper away.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So you have these people argue about, OK, is this the

Dr. Carlson:

:

disappearance or the lower numbers of of klepto or some of

Dr. Carlson:

:

the others because of the vaccine?

Dr. Carlson:

:

Or is it that natural just progression and disappearance?

Dr. Carlson:

:

I don't know. Right.

Anthony:

:

But well, I think this kind of speaks to our point, too of

Speaker4:

:

Vaccinating intelligently

Anthony:

:

Right and doing your doing titer test.

Anthony:

:

And then, yeah, it might be a little bit more money, but at

Anthony:

:

least you're not inundating your your dog system.

Anthony:

:

You're you're not over vaccinating them.

Anthony:

:

So you still keeping their, you know, you still have a

Anthony:

:

healthy immune system so that they're able to fight off

Anthony:

:

these other things, you know, I mean, which I think is

Anthony:

:

something I do. I mean, you know, I focus on our dogs guts

Anthony:

:

a lot, you know, making sure, you know, as you know, 80

Anthony:

:

percent of immune systems in the guts, I'm making sure it's

Anthony:

:

strong and healthy and.

Anthony:

:

Oh, that's a good point. It's a preventative, it's a

Anthony:

:

preventative, you

Dr. Carlson:

:

Know, but so back to Lepton, so it's it's carried by many

Dr. Carlson:

:

different animals, rodents, especially rodents, but the

Dr. Carlson:

:

other wild dogs, you know, we have a lot of fox and coyote

Dr. Carlson:

:

and things around here.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And then you've got others that are carried by some of the

Dr. Carlson:

:

other, the the deer and things like that.

Speaker4:

:

So. And what

Anthony:

:

Happens? So the infected,

Dr. Carlson:

:

Some of them will attack the the kidneys, OK and go into

Dr. Carlson:

:

they'll go into kidney failure, or some of them will take

Dr. Carlson:

:

the liver and you'll go into liver failure.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Ok, so so it is fatal.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I mean, it can be fatal if they

Anthony:

:

Get it, but there is a possibility, two of them naturally

Dr. Carlson:

:

Combating it. Some people say, Well, it's got to be because

Dr. Carlson:

:

the vaccines, I can't say whether there's not, but.

Dr. Carlson:

:

All I know is if, if, if I have an owner who's got the

Dr. Carlson:

:

exposure, lots of exposure, they're going to be out in the

Dr. Carlson:

:

wilderness, a lot on the ponds and or there's a lot of

Dr. Carlson:

:

rodents around then.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Then I'll say, OK, let's let's definitely think about it.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, that's the one.

Dr. Carlson:

:

That's the Letto is the hardest decision for me.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Well, I talk

Anthony:

:

Because I can't remember you talking about this before,

Anthony:

:

after, before we started recording or not.

Anthony:

:

But I think that's that's the one.

Anthony:

:

And you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the

Anthony:

:

one with the most adverse side effects registered is the

Anthony:

:

vaccine. Yeah.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So there is there is some risk for sure.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, yeah. Honestly, I've lately we've seen more reactions

Dr. Carlson:

:

with the influenza vaccine.

Anthony:

:

I think that's up there, too. Yeah.

Anthony:

:

Well, essentially, you should never really vaccinate an

Anthony:

:

unhealthy animal anyways, right?

Anthony:

:

That's kind of right.

Anthony:

:

It happens all the time.

Anthony:

:

Right. Well, I think that, you know, another issue and I

Anthony:

:

don't know what kind of experience you have with this, but

Anthony:

:

a lot of I know a lot of there's been a lot of situations

Anthony:

:

where dogs and some cats are vaccinated during times of

Anthony:

:

surgery. So when the dog is already under a lot of duress,

Anthony:

:

then they're vaccinating on top of that, which can we never

Anthony:

:

do that? I think, yeah, no, I know you guys don't, but I

Anthony:

:

think

Dr. Carlson:

:

It's I mean, that's practice we used to do long ago.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, years ago, sure.

Dr. Carlson:

:

But then then you start thinking, OK, well, now I've got

Dr. Carlson:

:

this animal under anesthesia.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Mm hmm. Oh, it's starting to have some problems.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Is that because it's having a vaccine reaction or is that

Dr. Carlson:

:

because I've got to do something with the anesthesia,

Dr. Carlson:

:

right? Yeah.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So we just thought that is just an unsafe process.

Anthony:

:

Yeah. Put you between a rock and a hard place.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, sure. And you have no idea.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, we be right.

Anthony:

:

That makes sense. I mean, from that perspective, too.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, I so so kind of the summarise.

Dr. Carlson:

:

I love the idea of you're focusing on the good diet,

Dr. Carlson:

:

healthy gut and, you know, limiting the vaccines, doing

Dr. Carlson:

:

titers whenever possible.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And we'll also we we separate the vaccines now so we don't

Dr. Carlson:

:

do more than two injectables at one time.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So we'll we'll set up if there's more than one do for that

Dr. Carlson:

:

pet, we'll do.

Dr. Carlson:

:

We'll have them come back at a different date for a

Dr. Carlson:

:

technician appointment.

Anthony:

:

I'm making. I'm making a face in my wife right now.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Well, because you get we, you know, we'll we'll have history

Dr. Carlson:

:

with some of these smaller dogs.

Dr. Carlson:

:

That's because that's another thing we didn't touch on,

Dr. Carlson:

:

either is that that vaccine is for

Anthony:

:

It's for a 100 pound animal.

Anthony:

:

Yeah. Well, I was why I was making that face as I'm going

Anthony:

:

to say it. We had actually gone in to get one of our kids

Anthony:

:

vaccinated, and I said, Hey, let's.

Anthony:

:

She wanted to do, I think, a combo on top of a monovalent

Anthony:

:

one, and I was like, Hey, let's do the combo, and I'll come

Anthony:

:

back in a couple of weeks.

Anthony:

:

And she rolled her eyes at me.

Anthony:

:

And then I have a veterinarian that's like, No, I think

Anthony:

:

spacing it out. It's a good idea.

Anthony:

:

And we're talking about our pets, not even our kids.

Anthony:

:

You know what I mean? So no, it just it just confirms I

Anthony:

:

made the right decision there.

Speaker4:

:

I mean, what harm can it?

Anthony:

:

Do you know what I mean?

Anthony:

:

I mean, you're inundating their immune system with all this

Anthony:

:

stuff. It's like, why don't we just kind of space it out?

Dr. Carlson:

:

We'll have owners say, Well, she just did horribly after the

Dr. Carlson:

:

last vaccines. What does she get and still say, Oh, well,

Dr. Carlson:

:

let's stop these four or five vaccines?

Speaker4:

:

Yeah, we'll say, OK, well, first, let's we don't know

Dr. Carlson:

:

What was it, just that huge load of antigen and then junk in

Dr. Carlson:

:

those vaccines?

Anthony:

:

Yeah, it was a certain ingredient and one of those vaccines.

Anthony:

:

And now you have no way of no way of knowing or

Anthony:

:

eliminating. Yeah, yeah.

Anthony:

:

So that's another good reason to kind of space out.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Anthony:

:

And pat myself on the back.

Anthony:

:

Good job. Yeah, I knew something was right.

Anthony:

:

Trust your gut. That's the point of the story.

Anthony:

:

Ok, so good diet, healthy gut limiting vaccines and doing

Anthony:

:

titers, spacing out vaccines as well.

Anthony:

:

That's a good it's a good start.

Danielle:

:

All right, so hopefully, maybe both of you guys can weigh in

Danielle:

:

on this. We have a customer question about fasting or how

Danielle:

:

many meals a day. Ideally, should an adult dog be eating,

Danielle:

:

given no other health concerns?

Speaker4:

:

Any any thoughts?

Speaker4:

:

Yeah, I got I

Anthony:

:

Got big thoughts on the berries.

Anthony:

:

I'd say it varies. It varies.

Anthony:

:

Go ahead. Yeah, I think for your your otherwise healthy

Anthony:

:

dog, adult dog, never fast puppies.

Anthony:

:

Puppies should be eating, you know, three times, maybe more

Anthony:

:

a day, simply because they can't get the amount of calories

Anthony:

:

they need in one day. They can't get from one meal.

Anthony:

:

They're not going be able to digest that one meal so you

Anthony:

:

want to spread it out. But for an adult dog, I mean, I've

Anthony:

:

seen I think it was back to their physiology the way I

Anthony:

:

mean, you know, our dogs are, you know, canine keenness

Anthony:

:

from Canis Lupus Familiars, which, you know, the gray wolf

Anthony:

:

is the keenest lupus. So they're a subspecies of them.

Anthony:

:

And I'm not saying they're dogs or wolves, but a lot of

Anthony:

:

their physiology is identical.

Anthony:

:

So and if you look at how wolves eat, they gorge, you know,

Anthony:

:

and then they fast for days, depending on when their next

Anthony:

:

meal is going to be or when they're going to be able to get

Anthony:

:

their next meal. So from an evolutionary standpoint, I

Anthony:

:

think fasting is really beneficial.

Anthony:

:

It allows them.

Anthony:

:

It gives their bodies a break from digesting food all day,

Anthony:

:

so it allows them to, you know, do things like fight off

Anthony:

:

pathogens so they're repair, resisting oxidative stress.

Anthony:

:

It allows the gut to rest and recover the pancreas.

Anthony:

:

Pancreas producing enzymes that boost the immune system

Anthony:

:

promotes a healthy metabolism.

Anthony:

:

I think

Speaker4:

:

Really, it's an

Anthony:

:

Easy way to maintain their weight when they're on, when

Anthony:

:

they're fasting or eating once a day.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah, there's a great point. I, you know, the other thing to

Dr. Carlson:

:

think is that the liver one, the liver delivered to so many

Dr. Carlson:

:

things in the body. But one of the things it does is

Dr. Carlson:

:

filters everything from the GI tract.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So if if it gets overwhelmed, I think that's one part of

Dr. Carlson:

:

allergies is when the the gut gets, the gut gets leaky,

Dr. Carlson:

:

that keys off the immune system.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And one number two starts overwhelming the liver in the

Dr. Carlson:

:

filtration there.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So then I think that's when

Speaker4:

:

You end up getting allergies

Dr. Carlson:

:

And other health issues, too.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah. So you're given that whole process of rest.

Anthony:

:

But just I want to reiterate no fasting puppies and no

Anthony:

:

fasting cats. Cats are no the one you do not want to fast

Anthony:

:

your outdoor cat, just for an example, eats 12 to 14 times

Anthony:

:

a day. So they they're not.

Anthony:

:

They're extremely efficient hunters, and they've evolved

Anthony:

:

very differently.

Dr. Carlson:

:

How many times a day

Anthony:

:

The average cat outdoor cat will eat about 12 times 12 to 14

Anthony:

:

times a day. Yeah, wow.

Anthony:

:

The crazy thing

Dr. Carlson:

:

Is, you

Anthony:

:

Know, they are such they are so good at hunting.

Anthony:

:

They it's it's kind of their downside as far as being

Anthony:

:

domesticated is because they're so efficient and they're so

Anthony:

:

good at what they do. They're so specialized.

Anthony:

:

I mean, they're literally just

Speaker4:

:

These little killers

Anthony:

:

Killing machines on four legs.

Anthony:

:

But you know, they've they've specialized in hunting.

Anthony:

:

So, you know, they're used to eating multiple times a day.

Anthony:

:

They're also used to getting lots of moisture in their diet

Anthony:

:

like they're not they're not as adaptable as dogs are as

Anthony:

:

far as eating like processed food.

Anthony:

:

It really affects cats way more, just because they've all

Anthony:

:

evolved from a desert dwelling East African cat that lived

Anthony:

:

in a desert and had no other, almost no other resources of

Anthony:

:

water than the prey animals they're eating, which is about

Anthony:

:

70 80 percent moisture.

Speaker4:

:

So, yeah, don't fast cats.

Anthony:

:

There's also some cool alternatives, so you can also,

Anthony:

:

there's some good research out there about if you if you're

Anthony:

:

not comfortable with fasting.

Anthony:

:

Completely first, a 24 hour period.

Anthony:

:

There's other things you can do just caloric restriction is

Anthony:

:

a big one for like maybe like one day a week just cut their

Anthony:

:

calories by like 70 75 percent can show some benefit there.

Anthony:

:

People do raw milk fast, so you can do like goat's milk for

Anthony:

:

a day without, you know, still giving them a really

Anthony:

:

digestible food. So giving them some really good nutrition,

Anthony:

:

but just keeping keeping their the calories down.

Dr. Carlson:

:

That's a great idea, too.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Yeah. Never thought about that raw go.

Anthony:

:

I mean, there's I always tell people like, there's dogs that

Anthony:

:

have epi that are out there, and all they eat is goat milk.

Anthony:

:

It's all they can eat, it's all they can digest, and they

Anthony:

:

do really well on it. So it's what a complete source of

Anthony:

:

food there's dogs.

Anthony:

:

And I think answers.

Anthony:

:

Actually, does this? They'll do they have like a 30 day

Speaker4:

:

Goat milk diet for dogs?

Anthony:

:

Hmm. It's a lot of milk.

Anthony:

:

I'll look

Dr. Carlson:

:

Into that.

Anthony:

:

Yeah, yeah. And then sometimes it's another important point.

Anthony:

:

Sometimes dogs fast themselves.

Anthony:

:

So people like my dog won't eat, you know, I'm like, Well,

Anthony:

:

maybe it's just not hungry, you know?

Anthony:

:

I mean, just keep keep providing food, but also, you know,

Anthony:

:

make sure they have fresh water.

Anthony:

:

And, you know, if it goes longer than two or three days,

Anthony:

:

then I start being concerned.

Speaker4:

:

But sometimes if they

Danielle:

:

Didn't actually see kind of like,

Anthony:

:

Do that, yeah, that's why were

Danielle:

:

We knew really what?

Anthony:

:

Yeah, she just she wouldn't even eat twice a day.

Anthony:

:

So I was like, All right, where did you see once a day?

Anthony:

:

And that was it. Now she eats her full amount of calories

Anthony:

:

in the morning, and that's it. She's done.

Speaker4:

:

You know, and she's she's put on weight, actually.

Dr. Carlson:

:

Now the other thing with cats I like to kind of go back to

Dr. Carlson:

:

cats is the hepatic lipid oasis, too.

Dr. Carlson:

:

So cats, if they've that it accumulates in the liver, end

Dr. Carlson:

:

up with liver, you know, fatty liver sugar, which is

Dr. Carlson:

:

hepatic lipid oasis.

Dr. Carlson:

:

And then they which can be fatal.

Dr. Carlson:

:

They go, they go in the liver failure.

Dr. Carlson:

:

It happens at such a rate, they're going to liver failure.

Anthony:

:

That's that's it's a different you got yeah, it's a

Anthony:

:

different story for cats.

Anthony:

:

Absolutely. Keep them fed.

Anthony:

:

Keep moisture in their feed

Dr. Carlson:

:

14 times a day for

Anthony:

:

14. Not really.

Anthony:

:

But if you wanted to get time, that's

Speaker4:

:

Yeah, that's great. So if you have

Danielle:

:

A question that you want us to answer on our next podcast,

Danielle:

:

you can find us a few different ways.

Danielle:

:

You can send an email to Danielle at Fang's four.

Danielle:

:

You can find us on our website.

Danielle:

:

Thanks for dot com or you can direct messages on Instagram

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