Frances Kingsley, a self-published author with a traditional secret identity, joins Emily and Corinne to compare and contrast writing for trad and self-pub writing. We also share our Great British Baking Show crushes.

Oh, last week I unplugged the whole system from

the wall mid conversation. Like, it's I have had, I don't believe

in the actual Mercury Retrograde thing. I was just goofing

around. But like, yeah, it's been a rough month, and I have

never had as much trouble as I have had technically this, oh

god, that's so funny that you said that, because I've had so

many people who are trying to explain all of my recent

problems to me by Mercury being in retrograde. And I'm like, I

don't believe in that shit. And yet everybody else seems to know

the problem. I mean, it's a great, it's great to have a

scapegoat, yeah, and especially if a scapegoat is a planet that

can't speak for itself, yeah, that is very true. You.

Foreign Welcome to the hybrid pub Scout podcast with me. Emily

einlander,

hello.

We are mapping the frontier between traditional and indie

publishing, and today we have Frances Kingsley on say hi,

hello.

She's really happy to be here. I am. We're

happy she's here too. It's gonna be fun. Yes, all right, so I'm

gonna read your bio. Yes, that I have compiled

both from you and from your book, that's right,

it's a bio, it's a work in progress. Bio, I like it. I like

it too. I like it when people talk about, like, their their

craft, yeah, yeah. You know, the things that they care about, not

just like, I went to this college, like, threw myself into

the ocean. Yeah,

so many bios.

It probably is. I love it. Well, good. I have, like, no memory of

what I wrote for my bio, so I'm interested. All right. Here.

Francis Kingsley is an indie author, a writer of strange

worlds and a romantic at heart. She loves books about heroines

that prove you can be vulnerable and strong at the same time,

mystical creatures, magical kingdoms, and, of course, swoon

worthy heroes. She's got two reverse harem series, one

fantasy about a lost kingdom of unicorn shifters, and one

contemporary rom com about a girl who inherits a bakery in

England. Also her cats are named John ralphia and Mona Lisa, who

I'm assuming are the

worst cats. So the worst is that? Why you named them that?

Yes, because they are the worst.

Absolutely.

Yeah, that's, that's pretty good. Yeah, that's it. I think

that covers it, yeah, yeah. Well, unicorns, creatures, hot

men, yeah. What more do you need? I nothing, really, yeah.

I mean, baked goods, yes, we almost forgot plenty of that. We

also need that, yeah. All right, well, let's, let's just get in

there, I guess do it. Let's, yeah, let's chat. All right, so

you, you've mentioned that you have had experience with both

traditional and indie publishing, which perfect,

right? That's, I know, yeah, that's totally like, when I saw

your post asking if anybody wanted to be on your show, and I

read about what your podcast was about, I immediately thought,

yeah, that's totally like, my journey completely is bridging

the gap, because I do, like I am Francis Kingsley, that's,

that's, You know who my indie published name is, but I have a

whole other secret identity as a traditionally published author,

and so I am back and forth between both worlds. I am a

hybrid author. We'll never tell no. Well, I I always think

hybrid sounds so like scientific. I almost want it to

be like a chimera author. I think that sounds quite love

that also, for me, there's kind of an element of hybrid That

sounds almost

unpopular opinion. Can sounds kind of scammy, yeah, yeah,

where it's like, oh, well, hybrid means I'm gonna just tell

you you're pretty and you can do whatever you want and then take

your money. Yeah, yeah. Like, best of both worlds, or like, a

Prius or something. Yeah, exactly. Scammy, scammy Prius.

Yeah, something about it, I just don't trust Yeah,

so let's go with Chimera from now on. All right, so she's a

chimera author, so what do you like about each of them, and

what.

Don't you like? Well, okay, so I'm gonna start with traditional

publishing, because that's where I started first. That's where I

think, that's where my heart still is in a lot of ways,

very romantic. Well, it is everything's high stakes in my

life. It just has to be.

I really love traditional publishing. I love the writer

that it's made me into. I think I got as far as I could go

before I had, before I went through, like, the gauntlet of

traditional publishing. And I call it that because it is

brutal. It can be, if you have a really good editor, it can be,

like, the best and worst thing for your writing, like the most

amazing, like an MFA program, you know, and that's your

career. And so I like the books that I'm able to write

traditionally are just like traditional publishing has

gotten the very best out of me, craft wise. And I love that. I

love that I can go to a bookstore and see, sorry, I'm

just rambling. You can stop me. No, no. I was just, I was

saying, that's great, yeah? Because, I mean, you don't want

to, you don't want to stagnate. Nobody does. I mean, no, if you

wanted to just go in and make money, you'd be doing something

else. Yeah,

you'd buy a lottery ticket. I think probably like, you'd have

more, more of a greater chance of success. Yeah, yeah, it's so

dark, but true, but true. Let's go there, ladies, let's just go

there. Bring us there. Yeah, you're into dark romance, well,

yeah, well, we'll get to that later. Yeah. I also really love

with traditional publishing. I it's been my dream since I was a

tiny little maggot to go into the bookstore and see my books

on the shelf like that is. And I have been very lucky to be able

to do that. You can walk into any Barnes and Noble and one of

my books might be on the shelf, and that's awesome. I love, I

mean, it's more than anything. I think it's validation. And I'll

just say that like I love to have my ego stroked by good

reviews by an entire team of my publisher who are all making me

look good, like that feels really good. And there's chances

to win, you know, literary awards and other accolades, and

have readers reach out. I'm not really somebody who writes for

readers. So that doesn't really do it so much for me, but it's

kind of nice to be like, oh, like somebody says I'm their

favorite author. That's so cool. There's, there's a an element

when, when I talk to like, people who are very self

publishing is the way to go, I don't understand why anybody

does anything different. Like, there are people and, yeah,

it's, it can be hard to explain that some people do want

prestige. Yeah, there's an element of it that is a bit

romantic, a bit like, unattached to money and like, it's just

like, I want to, you know, since you're a maggot, you have been

dreaming of this thing. Yeah, absolutely. I prefer larva, but

that's only because I just met you fair enough, I think, isn't

it larva first and then maggot. So maybe maggot is like ages

three to five. I didn't realize maggot was a technical term. I

thought it was a derogatory term for larva.

Well, I think that probably works too, judging by the child

that I was, that's pretty accurate.

Yeah. And you know that validation and that prestige and

that that desire to, like, conquer the world, you can't put

a price tag on that. If I could buy it, I would save up and buy

it, and I can't. So instead, I go through traditional

publishing, like, if there was an easier way again, I would

find it and do that instead. But that's just what I've always

wanted, is to just completely rule the world through my

writing. And traditional publishing is, I feel like kind

of how you do that. I mean, another pro to traditional

publishing

is it, it shapes, it helps shape our culture. You look at books

that are taught in schools, books that are being made into

movies with some like exceptions. I'm not going to

over generalize and say it's all traditional, but these are the

books that are being talked about, and these are the books

that are influencing us, and it's really cool to be a part of

that. Yeah, yeah. Well, and I would, there's a part of me that

would be very worried about a self published author who is,

who is getting their book option for movies, etc, because I worry

that they don't have representation who will, like,

yeah, look out for them. So that that's another plus if you do

get big. And I think that's probably why you know, Twilight

and 50 Shades. Like it was wise for them to go from self to to,

uh, traditional, because then they had people looking out for

them, you know, yeah. So there's that as well. So it's like, if

you do get big, you need the people there to make sure that

you're not getting screwed over, yeah, yeah. That's true. Yeah.

But what don't you like about traditional Oh,

like any, any,

any good relationship, there's ups and there's downs.

I am continually frustrated with traditional publishing and the

lack of transparency for authors you mentioned. You know that

there's a structure there for authors to have some protection,

and that's true to a point. But like, I cannot even tell you how

many author friends that I have who don't know very basics about

publishing and about their own book in within their publishers

sort of ecosystem, they don't have publicists assigned to

them. I mean, it's just, it's kind of crazy. It's and I think,

well, I know that publishers benefit from having authors be

sort of in the dark. You know, we don't. It's way easier. We we

don't know how much everybody is making. We don't know how who's

earning out advances, who's getting royalties, who paid for

their own book tour, and whose publisher sent them, we don't

know, like we just have no idea. So it's really refreshing to see

there's a handful of authors who are being extremely transparent

about such things online, and it's great. And you know, I

always just lap that shit up because I just have no idea. And

it's it has meant that I've I've gathered, like a small pool of

of traditionally published authors who are, they're very

good friends of mine, who I can trust, who we can say, hey, you

know, this publisher is offering me this much. Does that sound

ballpark fair like you just have no idea there's no, yeah,

there's no infrastructure to protect authors. We're all just

kind of on our own, and the idea is that you have an agent who

helps, and that's great, but only as far as your agent knows

what's going on, which might not be very much, you know, right,

right? So it's, it's, it's scary that way. And let's talk about

the money in traditional publishing, please. I've just

all those articles about how badly authors are paid now, and

it's tragic, yeah, I mean, that's, I'm not trying to be

over dramatic. It's just really depressing and tragic that

people, you know, I was reading, oh god, I forgot what her name

was, but she had a book about a restaurant. She was a restaurant

person, and it was this big, award winning book, and she was

a mail carrier, because she just stopped making money and she

didn't have a big enough advance, and, like, she didn't

get more books, because they were like, Oh, well, it was

good, but, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, she was mail carrier, and

everybody was like, Oh, why are you complaining so much in this

article? And it's like, I had this, you know, we had this

dream that it's like, oh, I'm going to be an author, and then

that's going to be my job, and it's not going to fall apart,

and then it's kind of like get kind of kicked to the curb in

some ways. And I have conflicting thoughts about this,

because I most authors that I know do have day jobs, and they

just kind of know that they always will, because the

structure, the structure of publishing, is that it is not

consistent. And that's good, you know? That's good because that

means, if you're raking it in, there's no sort of cap on you.

So, so it could be a very good thing that there's no sort of,

like, what are you not regulation, but like, there's no

sort of, like, consistency. You're not paid every week, you

know, which is good because that means the sky's the limit. But

then that means, like, you don't the bottom of the sea is also

the limit, and it will open up beneath you and stick you down

even further. Yeah.

So I

really like what Elizabeth Gilbert says in her book, Big

Magic. I love that book. You may have mixed feelings about

Elizabeth Gilbert herself, but she talks about how, well, yeah,

problematic fave, it's fine. Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I

just she has this whole section where she talks about how, when

she was younger, she made this vow that she would never ask her

art to support her. She would always work to support it, and

if it carried her along sometimes, isn't that like,

amazing and beautiful, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good way to

think of it. It is but, but then on the other hand, on a very

pragmatic hand, so the right hand,

pragmatic for me, that is the pragmatic hand

on the other hand, like, what a great way for publishers to be.

Like, see, you all need to keep day jobs because this is just a

fun little side hobby for you. This isn't this isn't work. This

is fun. And I even struggle with qualifying my work as work,

because it's fun for me, like even at its worst, even on my

worst riding days, I'd still rather do this than anything

else. And so it sometimes feels weird to think of it like a job

and to think of it like something that I deserve to be

paid, you know, at least a living wage to do, and part of

that too. If you zoom back even further and think, Well, what is

the function of artists, writers, entertainers in our our

culture, it's not like I'm a doctor, you know, I'm not

literally saving lives, but like, damn it, I serve up.

Purpose I make pretty entertaining things for you.

Might be saving somebody's life. Yeah, exactly, well, and that's

true, like, but, but even so, like, I don't want to think

about a society where we don't have court gestures, and that

doesn't mean that I don't deserve to make as much as the

policeman or the teacher or whatever, so that anybody

deserves to make good money. That's true. That's like, just

because you're getting yours doesn't mean they don't get

theirs. Yeah, yeah. Well, and I, I resent the idea that writers

or other artists are just kind of like diddling with their art

in the corner, like I work my ass off, and I have for a decade

and beyond to hone my craft. I'm a professional. I know what I'm

doing. It's, it's my skill, it's my craft. Like, I, you know,

anyway, sorry, that was very like your past. Unions of the

world unite, yeah. Like, I just have to, like, hold myself back

from talking about David Graber again. But everyone who thought

of

everyone go back and listen to episode 17 ahead moment and talk

about it in depth. Okay, so now you can please talk about indie

and your experience with that. Yes, okay, so I will say a

caveat, which is that I'm still very new to indie. When did you

start? Well, like November of last year, cool, like, very,

very new. But we were new podcast, yes, okay, well, then

good level, yeah, yeah. So I, but I will say, like, when I,

when I decide to do something, I dive in. So it was like, from

like November on, it's been all day, every day, learning as much

as I can, what's your sign? Pisces,

yeah, what's your birthday? Is it like right now? It's like,

tomorrow,

happy birthday.

I actually hate birthdays.

Well, no, it's fine. I accept your I just feel a lot of

pressure every year that goes by to, like, get shit done. And so

every year my birthday feels like it's, like, New Year's, you

know, like, oh my god, resolution, yeah. Like, what,

what is, what is the year 32 gonna be, like, for me, or

whatever? And right? And then, like, I'm a mom and a wife. And

so then there's pressure to, like, have fun on my birthday.

Yes, yes, you get it. You understand? Yeah, anyway,

Pisces, what were we saying? Oh, everything, okay, yeah, yes,

sorry. I dive into things hard. I do like a fish. I do dive in

like a fish, like two fish, yes,

so, so, so far, some of the extreme pros that I found about

the indie model of publishing

is mostly about production, speed and production, just

production in general. I'll say I have always been a very, very

fast writer, and I've always been too fast for traditional

it's been,

it's been the albatross around my neck ever since I signed my

first contract, trying to get

the people around me to move faster and let me submit more

manuscripts, indie that Doesn't matter, like I've put up since

January 18. I've put up. I just put up my sixth book. Oh my so

I'm able to get them out and get them up way faster than

traditional will. Yeah, let me. And I say, I say, let me,

because, you know, it's my career, and I'm steering the

ship and all that. But it's, but it's not ultimately up to me,

you know, and they're working on other projects. And, yeah,

exactly. It takes 18 to 24 months for a book to come out

after I sign with them, you know.

So, so I really like that about indie. I like the that that

means that you can hop on a trend right away. Like, you

know, you can't really do that in traditional you're always a

little bit behind your eyes all

you know this, yeah? The constant like, Oh, this is

popular right now, right means it's not going to be popular.

Yes, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, which you know. And then the the

wisdom in traditional is we'll stop chasing trends, you know,

just right, right from your heart. Why are you chasing

trends. Yeah, some people want to make money. So, right? Yeah,

you know, yeah, yeah. I like so I love that you can write that

there is a very distinctive market that you can find in

indie for your genre or niche or whatever weird shit you're into,

that you can find and research and and quite literally weird

shit. Yeah. I do mean that, and I don't mean just in romance,

like every genre has their own weird shit that you were like,

what? I had no idea that that was a thing, but there probably

is a thing. This is why I love talking to like indie public,

like writers, because there's I get to find out what the weird

thing is.

It's so much fun. Yeah, my mind has definitely.

Been blown open the last couple months researching.

No, what are, what are some of the weirdest things that you've

seen? Oh, god, is

this? This is like a not safe for work. Oh, yeah, explicit,

yeah, even if, great. Okay, good. So, when I first started,

I actually thought, well, I'll write erotica. I can bang out,

no pun intended, like, you know, a short a day, and just put it

up and yeah, that's what it's just yeah. I know a lot of

people who think that, yeah, well, and I guess for a long

time, that was the conventional wisdom. And actually, that's

what I did under a whole other pen name, just with short

erotica pieces to practice, basically uploading onto the

platform, because a lot of people get hung up on the

technological side of things and didn't realize maybe a problem.

Yeah, well, and then to just not feel attached to, I'm not gonna

feel attached to, like

a fodder for masturbation that I wrote that's like, I just am

not, yeah, it's like, this belongs to you now.

Masturbators, yes, here you go. It's no longer mine. This is the

real intent. Isn't a thing here. No, it is not my great

masterpiece.

Oh yeah, yeah. So well, it might be, I don't know. So I did that

for a while, and that was great, but i i I quickly realized, and

maybe people will correct me, but I the way that you can have

some success making a living doing erotica now is going into

the more niche and sub niche type things, so things like

human cow. Do you know of this. Do you know if human cow? No,

it's basically lactation porn, but it's but, it's but Kate. But

beyond that, you create a story wherein the woman or somebody is

part of some sort of factory, or, like, chosen to be a

breeder, slash human cow. It's actually usually abbreviated hue

cow, like Hu cow like a adorable cartoon character that quickly

goes dark.

Is it

cuz you

love me? It's

definitely

not that.

Just gonna say they love you in a fashion cue, Cal in their own

fucked up way. I'll take what I could get. Yeah,

well that. And then I know you know about dinosaur porn, and

yeah, or dinosaur erotica and Bigfoot erotica, and

which is fine, like, it's all fine. And I can see, I don't

want to say I can see the appeal, but I can see,

not the appeal, because I but I can see how that's a thing.

Like, I can see,

but, like, I don't know, I had a, I had a hard time with, like,

the pseudo incest stuff. I just, I

don't know if I can get into that kind of a niche, yeah, that

Pornhub map brewing. My, my, oh so bad. It's like, wow,

everybody's really into incest,

yeah, yeah, horrible. So things like that, and there's other

things. Like,

I don't know, the feeder

that's old as time. Do you know about this feeder theater? Peter

gainer, I don't know what that is. We'll talk about it later.

Okay,

I grew up in Amish country. I don't know about these. Google

it.

Google it, carefully.

Google it, not on the video. Okay, yeah, gotcha again.

Totally fine for anybody who likes to read it or write it. It

just was a little too niche for me to and I mostly was thinking,

how can I write this over and over and over? I don't know if

there's enough for me. You know, maybe I could write it 510,

times, but then after that, I might be really burned out on

it, and I try very hard not to get burned out. Yeah, good. So

I don't know what led us down that fun. That's how you started

indie. Yeah, that's how you were writing really quickly from

November, yeah, yeah. So writing really quickly. That's great.

The money, obviously in Indy, it comes a lot faster. I don't

think we talked about payout structures for traditional but

they suck. Yeah, they suck, as you guys know. So if you get, if

you are lucky enough to get a six figure deal in traditional

publishing, that does not mean you get $100,000

right off the bat, that's, that's first of all, your agent

gets 15% Second of all, you better squirrel away 30% for

taxes, or else you're gonna be very, very sad.

And then you get it's divided. You get a portion when you sign

your contract, which for me, my contracts always come maybe six

months after the first after like the deal is made. That's

six, six months. Seven.

Six months later, that's much farther than Yeah, than what we

do, yeah? Are you guys faster well, and yeah? And obviously

every publisher is a little bit different, but six months of

waiting for basically 1/5 of your money, you know,

yeah, and then the next portion Well, and, you know, it goes to

your agent first, and maybe your agent only, like my publisher,

only pays out on the last day of the month, and your paperwork,

and your paperwork has to be in for that payment to go through

by the 14th. So if you, if it comes in on the 16th, it won't

go out until the last day of the next month. And then it goes,

then it goes to your agent. My agent is overseas, so yes, and

so then she has payouts that she does every other week. So if I

don't miss it, then it's so it just takes forever. It's not

even if it is good money, it's not anything you would want to

rely on to, like, raise a family or anything.

But then again, that sucks, that I have to just view it as bonus

money because I'm working so hard every day for what bonus

money. No, no. So hence why I decided to, while I was waiting

for deadlines and contracts and things with traditional to like,

bang out some books and make some money doing indie. So that

is why I'm here. Is it working out?

It's I'm doing okay. So far, I haven't, I haven't started

advertising. I've just been putting books up. So I don't

know what my numbers might be in six months when I finally start,

because you don't want to have that running, people are like,

Why doesn't she have the book out tomorrow? Because I just

read it. Like I've heard, I've heard so many people complaining

about how, like, they'll finish a book, and they're like, it's

coming out next month. I can't handle which is insane, like,

it's so stupid that's already a breakneck speed, like, a book a

month I can't even do, I can't even do, like, two podcasts a

month without, like, going, Oh, this is so much work. It is.

It's so much work. It's it's consistent work. And, like, my

mental state does not stay the same all the way through a book.

And so it's not like it's the same work every day, like for

me, beginnings of books are way easier. I can write the first

75% of a book in the same amount of time as it takes me to write

the last 25% it's just very, very difficult for me. So I

don't know it's it's tough emotionally and and I'm putting

a book every other week out. And so, yeah. So I'm, I am wanting

to have a full series, or a series and a half or something,

before I run any ads, because I just thought,

if I'm gonna lead people to the store, let's make sure there's

plenty for them to buy while they're there, you know. Yeah.

So it's, it's going okay so far, without any any ads. I'm not in

four figures yet, but I'm in three figures, and that's pretty

good. That's really damn good, considering there's no ads.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't have three figures. Nope. Me neither.

Yeah,

that's great. Well, I mean, yeah, before taxes, right,

that's right. Oh, God,

sorry not to rain on your parade. Oh, man, now I'm left

with just enough to fill up my guest,

yay.

Can we talk about, go ahead. Can we talk about myths to dispel?

About, let's do both traditional and indie. Let's do, yeah, I

think a big myth that I still see talk with traditional and

this is a myth that I still see perpetuated on forums and online

and on Facebook groups of indie authors talking about

traditional publishing, is that it destroys your art, that you

know, you get put through this like ringer, and this editor

slashes your book apart. I just, I have never heard of anybody

having that experience and

and I have a very hands on editor. Had the same editor for

all of my traditionally published stuff. She and I get

along very, very well. We're very close. And she has a very

keen interest in my artistic rise, you know, like she, she,

she's very she's, like, personally invested, yeah, yeah.

She loves me. She loves my work, so, so she pushes me hard, yeah?

So some more myths about traditional publishing. Yeah.

They're not out to kill art. In fact, I think, I think if you

want to write something weird and boundary pushing and have it

find its readers,

traditional is the way to go. I just, I that's what I think you

can definitely do that in indie and and you won't have any

gatekeepers, you know, stopping you or saying, what exactly is

this? But you won't have built in readers who are ready and

waiting for weird like they just know how to market weird stuff.

And so if you want to write something that is very odd and

doesn't fit neatly into one spot. So would you say that

there's no?

Because I think that traditional publishing, you're considered a

tastemaker. Like yes, the traditional publishers are

creating the taste are there tastemakers in indie in the same

way? Yeah.

Oh, yeah, I think so. I think there's, how are they, how does

that work? Like, I don't think I've ever really thought about

that before. Yeah, yeah. Well, how are they discovered? Like,

how do they put their work out in a way that says, Hello, this

is, this is the thing now, without a marketer going out and

saying, Hi everyone, this is the thing now, because we're, you

know, Simon and Schuster.

Yeah, we Simon and Schuster. We have decided now that fantasy is

out and contemporaries back in. Yeah, that's, that's 2019,

they've decided. And that's fine. I, you know, I don't I,

all I can think of is an author. And I'm going to be very vague

here, because I don't want to want to out anybody or or

anything, but there's a movie coming out later this year that

is going to be popular. Already is popular, and this author has

already decided that she wants to gather a couple other people

to write something similar, and then I'll drop them at the same

time, like, that's how you create taste in the indie it

might work. It might not. So it's a group. It's kind of like

it is. It can be. I think, well, in this case, it is. But I

think, yeah, I think smart indie authors who want to be taste

makers, somebody said you don't want to be

running up to the train as it's leaving the station, but you

also don't want to be sitting on the train waiting for it to take

off. You want to, like, get to the train right as it's right as

it's about to leave, and gently step up onto the train as it's

taking off. That's how you hit the trend at the right time.

Yes, goodbye. Yes, exactly. So if you can, I mean, if you can

look at larger cultural things that are happening. I mean,

mountain men, romance became hot right around the time of the

Revenant, you know. Okay, so if you could look at things that

are going to be coming up, and it's a gamble, it always is. It

is for traditional publishers too. It's a huge gamble. They

have no idea what's going to hit and what isn't. But if you're a

smart indie author, those are the types of things I think you

look at, but then it still is a cross between what you know and

what you can bring to the book. That's your specific unique

flavor, and whatever's you know happening in the large world, it

sounds like you have to be hooked into like multiple

avenues of media, and not just the book world, because you were

saying The Revenant. And so there's an ability for an indie

author to respond more quickly to the market. And so if there's

a movie coming out, you can write a book within Yeah, you

know, as soon as you see the preview to come out at the same

time, yeah. And How amazing would that be to, like, hit it

at the right spot?

Yeah, and I think there's more room in Indy to take chances on

things that that might not work out, because I think you can

invest less of your time with it. You know, we can test the

sort of test the waters in a different way that you can't

really deal with traditional Sure,

more traditional. Well, I'll tell you about some of the myths

about indie that have been burst for me because, because I so I

started traditional publishing. I got my agent in 2013 and I

signed a book deal in 2014 so I've been around for a while.

And for I should say, too. In 2011 and 2012 I was working as a

remote intern for

a literary agent. I was doing slave labor for her for free

because I could afford to and I, and it was a nice like, I don't

know, gave me a glimpse into the world. So that was around the

time when Indy was kind of getting it had already been

around for a while, but it was really becoming something we

talked about a lot, and the talk around it was not great, at

least not for traditional publishers. I had, I had my own

notions about it, about

about indie publishers being people who wanted to

circumnavigate traditional because they couldn't make their

way through it, or people who were embittered by the process,

which now on the other side, I'm like, You have every right to be

you should be embittered by the process and circumnavigate it,

because it's a broken system. But I think too, in some of

those big first waves of indie authors, there were a lot of

writers, or a lot of indie authors who were salesmen first

and storyteller second, and really wanted to have something

to sell. And I now that it's not quite as I think the Gold Rush

is over, and I think we're left with a lot of people who

genuinely love storytelling, and I actually don't work really,

and work their asses off. And I actually, I actually don't think

it matters. It doesn't bother me, because I know plenty of

traditional authors who do not have their heart at

storytelling, but are good at it and made money doing it like it

just doesn't matter how people are making their money, and if

it hurts people's feelings to know that their favorite book

was written by somebody who doesn't even read books, well,

grow up like.

Right? Yeah. I mean, not everyone who designs a sweater

is like, where sweaters

I was going somewhere different with that. But

you win,

you win this round.

So some of the myths that I have like discovered are not true. Is

this idea that indie authors do not care about quality, or that

their writing is subpar. They are not required to go through

that gauntlet of editorial that traditional publishers are,

but they have the chance to, and many of them, do you know, edit

their stuff. It just costs more money. It does cost more money.

It's almost like so I think for every writer, there's like a

stage of your writing where you're going through, like an

apprenticeship, you know, like you're learning your craft, and

you're writing bad books and whatever. If you're, if you're

on the traditional publishing track, maybe you don't show

anybody those manuscripts, or you don't send them out, or you

send them out knowing they're gonna probably get rejected,

whereas indie you just put them up anyway. Like, it's like, what

happened? Yeah, you kind of like show so the world can watch your

progress, you know. And you might make some money and you

might not.

But the idea that indie publishers are not editing their

books, are not putting out quality books, or are not caring

about their craft, that's just not true. So, so I think that's

a myth that is just not true. And we can all point to

traditional publishers published books that are not great either.

So it's, it's a stupid, it's a stupid argument to be made on

either side, because, plus, you just don't know, like, you have

no idea what books have been edited and which ones you can't

or which ones haven't been Yeah, I feel like the only people who

get upset about things like that are people who haven't realized

that everything in life is very arbitrary. Yeah, yeah. And, and

I'm not talking about grammar, because I think there's a lot of

programs like even Microsoft Word will correct a lot of your

stuff nowadays. So I think

indie authors, at the very least, are getting proofreaders,

which is great, but big developmental edits like you

can't. You can't go through traditional publishing without

that. They will break your book down. They will they will ask

you to break your book down, and for a good a good reason, it

should be probably broken down. That's how you learn

storytelling. That's how you improve your craft. You don't

have to do that with indie, and it is a slight. It's a different

pro product in the end. But I think to the aims of traditional

and indie, well, this is where I can be an asshole, because I

don't want to over generalize. But I think indie authors right

to market knowing that their books are going to be gobbled

up, like, you know, immediately, yeah, like, candy, like,

they're, they're part of the binge culture, you know, they

want to just like, and I think traditional authors are hoping

that their books will be the ones that are, like, hugged

tight to somebody's chest after they read it, you know. And,

like, moved mount evergreen, yeah, and, and, gosh, we just

need both in the world. Like, there's no, there isn't we need

both. We just do and and most importantly, you will never be

able to tell as a reader which one got all the editing and

which one didn't. You have no idea what the author is capable

of. I say that as somebody who wrote my debut, which won tons

of literary awards, had starred reviews. I wrote it in 10 days,

like it just congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, I am a fast

writer, but, but then you know, my other, my third book, which

was a slog, and just I could never quite get it right, and I

finally did. I labored over that thing and like, no one cares

about that book, like, so you just never know. Like I put so I

did, like that book is my Horcrux, and nobody cares.

Well, then no one will find Yeah, that's right,

and you'll live forever. Yeah. So, so the whole like quality

and editing and like production myths that are thrown about on

either side are just stupid, because it just doesn't matter,

and nobody notices and nobody cares. So let's just get back to

telling stories. And if you want to spend four years working on

your story, if you love it that much, then you should do it. And

you should make it the very best you can make it. And if you just

want to write a story and get it out there and have it be fun,

and you don't care if like, the emotional core is, like,

symbolic or whatever, like, that's fine.

I wish people could have seen the face you just made, because

it was like Sloth from the Goonies. Like,

totally. Can you make that face again and take a selfie? And

we'll use that no no, because she has a secret identity.

Emily's the one doing all the work here, obviously. So don't

worry. Yeah, most drinking.

So like, how much of a investment do you put into

production on the indie side? Like, do you have an editor and

a designer and, like, what you know, do you have special photo

shoots for covers, or do you buy, like, stock covers? Oh,

what's what's the deal? What's the deal? So

my whole thing was that I just.

Just wanted to do this for as cheap as possible, which is

fair, I think, I mean it and on a fast timeline. And yep, see

what happens exactly. So right now, I make my own covers. I

paid $10 a month for Photoshop, and I paid $10 a month for

Shutterstock. I've literally never used Photoshop before.

Yeah. So that's what I've done so far, made my own covers. I,

like, looked up Photoshop to two bearded guy. That's, I don't

know that some, like, German bearded guy I found on

Shutterstock. Actually, I found the photo first when I was just

perusing through Shutterstock, like you do and like, that was

what inspired the series. I was like, Oh yeah, Baker's Dozen,

that's obviously a reverse harem, 12 dicks. Yes, Baker's

Dozen, 12 dicks and a lot of cookies. That's right, well, and

it's set in England, so spotted dick, you're not gonna do that.

No, not gonna, like, bring in, okay, there will be no sex with

the food. Is that what you're asking? Like, no, no, no, that's

not okay. That's not my thing. That's messy. Wait, I started

reading these books. No, no. I can't handle them, plus, like

that. I can't cross the streams.

It's so much work too. Like, you make this pie and then that's

what you do to it. Oh, that's so I mean, I guess if you really

want to, then it's worth it. Yeah, that is not my that is not

my sub niche.

That's not my fetish. No, no, no, it's not I want to eat the

pie.

Yeah? Anyway, yeah, well, I'm glad to hear that. I'll keep

reading it. Then good. I Yeah, no, it's safe. It's safe. Well,

and no pressure read it, yeah, just whatever. Second book just

came out yesterday, I think,

I mean, the beard sold me on it. I mean, do you like, Okay, I was

wondering if that would be like, polarizing. Oh, well, my

husband, well, we're in the Pacific Northwest, and basically

I actually the man, the the man that you described, sounds like

a Pacific Northwest guy sounds like, sounds like my husband,

who is about like my Well, yeah, nice. Well, my husband is a

Pacific Northwest guy, and he grows a hell of a beard. So

that's the guy on the cover, though, looks like currents

boyfriend.

I targeted you perfectly.

I was like, is he leading a double life is like a stock

photo model.

I bet he could, yeah, you never know. Yeah, you could make like,

we're gonna Photoshop his face and her face onto the cover.

That's gonna be that since you, since you have a secret face,

that's going to be our episode. Yeah, perfect. I love it.

That's perfect.

That's perfect. Anyway. So you found the stock photos. You want

to spend as little money as possible. I do and like, my

covers need some work. I need to, like, redo them. I just did

it based on what I saw. Which I think you can make your own

covers if you have I don't think it's an artistic eye that you

need. That's what everybody always says. Oh, if you have an

artistic eye, I think you have to. It's more of an analytical

eye. If you can look at other books in your genre, see what

the elements are, and then write those down so that you can

recreate them, then you can do it. So mine will be tweaked in

the next little while. I'm still new. I'm still learning,

um, as far as editing goes, I do edit my own stuff. I do,

and I I think I found one typo in one of the ones that's

published. So I welcome anybody. If you find other typos, send me

an email. I'm happy to, well, you can always hear about it,

post it exactly because I can. And I'm less concerned about

typos than I am about, oh, plot holes and character arcs and

dialog that doesn't make sense and jokes that fall flat and

that sort of thing.

But I purposely started doing indie so that I could have an

outlet for storytelling that was not quite as immersive as

traditional, like I already tear my books apart with traditional.

I don't want to do that with indie. So I shoot from the hip

really. I mean, it is sort of and, you know, I'll say, I don't

think everybody can do that. I think that if you have

experience writing, and if you are an avid reader and consumer

of stories, and you have honed your storytelling instincts,

then you could do it.

Maybe. Yeah. So maybe if you want to, and if you want to,

because that's, that's what it is all about, just whatever you

want, just do it. It doesn't mean that you'll make a bunch of

money, because you still have to do what the market is asking.

But yeah, so just in time. Time is an investment. We forget to

put dollars on time, but yeah, I've invested a lot of time so

far.

Yeah, that is a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of I'm hoping it

will pay off.

That's okay. I just had a question about

the fun levels between your traditional books and the Inti

books. Do you feel like you.

Have more fun writing the anti books, because there's so much

more like freedom in the process.

I mean,

I don't know if my very first genre that I would I don't know

how to say this like, I don't know if I would choose to write

reverse harem. I have come to really, really love it, and I

chose it because I could see myself falling in love with it.

And I do love it. I don't know how much I love shifters and

paranormal. I don't know how long I'll stay doing that, and I

don't know how much I love I don't know if that I found my

spot in romance. Yet I'll say that I do like reverse harem a

lot. Like a lot, a lot. I didn't think that I would. But I love

what it does to your main character. I love how empowering

it is. I love how it takes this metaphor of, like, who you are

when different people are around, and then, like, you can

be all of them at the same time. Like, it's just so glory all

different aspects of a person's personality. Like, it's actually

a great formula, and I can see it lasting a long time. Yeah, I

just love it. And then I love the idea too, of men who are

willing to lay down their own egos to be with you and share

and share, yeah, exactly, and let you have. I mean, that's

like a metaphor for a woman's time and autonomy and body and

all sorts of things that I think is just so it's, it's fun to

write, right? A man, a man who can handle you being into

different things, even if it isn't like another man, it's

just, oh, she wants to work on this, right? Yeah, she wants to

go here right now. She wants to be this kind of person. Like, I

don't know that's me being an armchair psychologist, but,

like, No, I think that makes sense. Yeah? Like, there's

taking the issue of, like, fidelity out of it. It's just

like, giving someone the freedom to explore different parts of

themselves. Yeah, and it requires, I think, a great deal

of trust too, which is just anyway, so it's, it's super It

is fun. It's really fun. Um, I have made myself promise I'm

not. I'm that person who always has like, 1000 irons in the

fire. And like,

we're in my office now, and I have, oh, you can't see it. I

have a wall over there full of post its with all the books that

I'm currently working on. And there's like, a billion of them.

I'm making myself stick with romance for six months, so as

soon, as soon as June comes, I am allowed to explore other

genres. And, oh, my God, I'm stacking up books already. I'm

so excited cozies, no, not, not cozies. I'm gonna write

archeology thrillers

with like Da Vinci Code, yes, but less conspiracy theory and

less less Catholic.

I I am super nerdy, and I'm super into artifacts and also

archeology ethics, and I am really excited to write about

like people who steal from museums or people who steal

dinosaur bones from Mongolia. And were you an anthropology

major? No, I wasn't. I was I was a biology major for a while, and

then I was an English major, and then I was a dropout because I

got pregnant, okay, and because I signed my book deal. And I was

like,

Yeah, I don't really need this, no, but, like, I've always, I

never wanted to study it academically. I don't know why.

I think because I was so I wanted to be a marine biologist

for a really long time. On top of writing, you know, best

selling novels, it's a false construct that makes people

think that they're going to make money and have a life, and then

it doesn't. Yeah, that was exactly my thought. That was

literally it. I was like, I better major in something that

will actually bring me money, marine biology, totally, maybe

don't major in anything, and just go make money instead.

Yeah, I could do that. Just go make mad.

I have teacher friends who will will get mad at me for saying

that. But anyway, no, it's, it's very true. So, archeology,

archeology, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do that in a couple

months. I'm a total wimp, and I don't know how many, how, like,

I don't know if the body count will be really high,

so I don't think they'll be very gory, but they will be

thrilling,

in a word, serious, yeah. And then I also have this dragon

Western cereal that I'm working on too,

yeah, that I'll do just as like, a side project that maybe will

not make any money, but will at least be fun, because it will be

cowboys riding dragons, and I think that's so I'm just gonna

play it straight. Okay, so we're about to ask the most important

question. Okay, I'm ready.

So you said that the baker's dozen series, yes, is great for

fans of the Great British baking show? Oh, is it would? That's

what you said. Yes,

I looked today and that I did say that that was my claim. You

brought this on yourself.

So the most important question here is, who is in your great

British baking show harem? Oh, my God.

So.

So I'm gonna choose three, because three is the minimum for

a true harem, correct? And this is in no particular order,

because you do not have to play favorites with a harem either.

It's why. Well, okay, Corinne had to,

that's okay, I understand. And this is so that I can have all

the different flavors, you know, yes, because it's baking, yeah,

I'm gonna say tamal. I don't know what season he is, but he

is yummy,

15. I think okay, we were looking Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna

say Selassie, although he's not really my type, but like on that

show, and then he has an accent, like, yes, and then I'm gonna

say this is, like, wild card, because I'm pretty sure he's

gay, and so maybe he would not want to be part of my harem, but

maybe I could convince him is Steven, I'm dead. So that's my

that's my hair, but I want to hear yours now. Okay, Corinne,

you go first. Okay, my first one is, I feel like this is pretty

obvious, and probably across the board is Rob, right? Rob, who's

Rob? So he is,

I don't think it's that not be obvious, okay, yeah. I think he

was like, way, like, in maybe the first season or something,

because the only time American, yeah, something like that

Netflix season. Yes, exactly. He has like, dark curly hair and,

like, really blue eyes,

yes, yeah, okay, I know you're talking about Yeah, stripey

button lips, usually, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's on

there. I also chose tamal. Yes, I had to mall, but I crossed him

off because Corinne had That's right, because you're a good

friend, and then I would feel weird about him overlapping,

actually, because at first we were like, Oh, it would be okay.

And then I was like, No, the boys share. The girls don't.

But it's nice to have somewhere for the men to go when you're

busy with other things, though, right? That's true. I would,

we'd have to have a long talk about,

we don't have enough time for it. Okay, yeah, yeah.

And then I chose James, who I think was like 21 when the show,

oh, my God. But now he's 27 so I feel like that's kind of fair

game. I mean, I'm 39 so, like, that's kind of fair game. Ish,

for sure. And then yeah, and then John, my last one was

Richard, mainly because Richard,

yes, he was, like, cutest dad. Yes, right. That's exactly what

I said, Yeah. Like, he seems like a really good dad, like a

really stable, solid guy. Yes, every year on your birthday, you

would have a beautiful cake. Yeah? And he's not afraid of

decorating with pink. I remember that too, totally not. Yeah. He

was very Yes, yeah. That is a good choice, yeah. Thank the

Marion kind Yeah. He is. Parents say

there's something very like Bob Cratchit about him too. Like,

well, there is like Governor, you know, it's true.

It's true. Okay, that concludes, my harem, Emily, let me hear

yours. My Selassie, yes, yes, definitely. And Andrew, Oh, cute

little ginger, Andrew, well, so I looked up

Andrew's Instagram, and apparently he and Selassie do a

lot of like, Facebook, live things together. Are you

serious? Yeah, they do shit together. And they like, there's

a picture of them with Andrew sitting in Celeste knee, and

they're dressed in like, Christmas costumes. They went to

some benefits, and they have a, like, a buddy hashtag, and it's

so landrew soland Drew, oh my gosh, came right. So those two

are in my harem, like 100%

and then I like, Rob, because I like a good teddy bear, yeah?

And he's a teddy bear guy, yeah? And then my problematic fave is

Paul Hollywood, yeah, yeah. I think he's really hot. He is. Do

you see, I think he's like a gayer. Alex Baldwin sway in a

gross He

reminds me of him.

It's so embarrassing, you can't ruin it. Oh, okay, yeah, I don't

know I feel weird about because he's really slimy. But, like, he

is very handsome, though he is, yeah, like, you see

traditionally, well, he seems like the kind of guy that you're

like, Oh, he's mean, and then you're like, he's not anyway,

yeah, yeah. Um, also, I'm gonna get in trouble if I don't say my

husband. Because, yeah, right, because he, in our friend

circle, is the guy who bakes all this. Oh, nice. He's a huge

Baker. Oh, lucky. You? Yeah, so, like, if I left him off, my

friends would get mad. Oh, I'll add my husband to he just got

into baking bread, and it's amazing

in here. He was like, who gets Louie or

who do.

Out the guy with the handlebar mustache. Oh yeah. Like,

maybe no, no. I'm thinking gene Parmesan, parmesan.

All right, so what would you like to plug?

I don't know. What does that mean?

You plug, like, promote, like, promote, oh, like, my stuff.

Okay, sorry, I don't I don't mean which. I'm not talking

about romance, okay.

Oh, my God,

that's a different word that I'm not going to

I would never ask you that question.

Let's I'll plug since we just talked about baking like a ton,

let's talk about I'll plug my unicorn books really quick. So

that's going to be a five book series. I'm I have two books out

now, the third books coming out in like a week or two. Maybe.

What's the name of the series? So the series is called the

realm of beauty series, and it is, I basically wrote

a reverse harem paranormal shifter series that was exactly

not to market because I was really smart. This is the thing,

like, my traditionally published brain, like, looks at any genre

and is like, how can I make it my own? Like, how can I carve

out a little space for myself? But with indie, you don't want

to do that. You want to replicate what's already

happening. So I'm still learning how to do that, but I will say

it is a very light, romantic, whimsical, nothing dark,

nothing, no killing. It's very like safe. Read about a girl who

lives in Minnesota who discovers that she is the lot, the heir to

this lost

kingdom in this like portal in the woods, basically. So she

goes and they are unicorn shifters. They used to all be

warriors, like a class of warriors, and then this big,

huge battle happened, and they ran through on their horses

through the moonlit waters and came out, and they were fused

with their horses. And now they can shift back and forth. It's

way cooler than I'm making it sound.

And since then, they have become artists and creators instead of

destroyers. And so they all have, like a special gift. So

there's lots of like, painting and music and and it's basically

just her gathering her harem. So from all of these different

factions in her kingdom,

and kind of coming into her own as a queen and trying to be

she's kind of, I'm trying really hard to make her very wise and

very generous and very open and learning as a ruler. So she's

not bratty. She's not she's a lot more like, she's like

Aragorn, like, I love the reluctant ruler trope. It's

like, my favorite. So she's very she's happy to be there, but

she's also kind of like, really me, are you sure? So it's just

kind of her following her arc,

and I'll probably come back and write other books in the series

later this year, if it sells.

I have things mapped out, and I was hearing Chris Fox talking

about a flagship series, which is what you want to do in

fantasy, where you have like 20 books, it's set in a world, and

it's broken down into like four or five book series, so that

there's multiple entry points. So which is a smart thing to do,

and I really like this world, and there's a lot more that I

could do with it, so I might play around in it a little bit

longer. But Book One is called Beyond the shine. The shine the

shine is like the shimmering lights above the water that the

portal is through, so you jump through the shine. All right,

we'll link it. Good, awesome. Yeah, that's my plug. All right,

right, we'll take care of that.

So what are you reading? I am reading right now a book called

The Feather thief. It's a non fiction book. It's by Kirk

Wallace Johnson, something with three names. I don't

know, the feather serial killer. No, not well. Isn't that the

rules we know if you're white and you have three names, like

there's a 5050, chance, like Foster Wallace,

Sorry, go on. I really like them, either that's okay, or

maybe a preacher or something like this, exactly, right,

right? Yeah. So it's a nonfiction about, I guess, the

birds of paradise, which were a species that used to be all over

the Amazon, were hunted almost into extinction for further

feathers. And Marie Antoinette made it fashionable to wear

feathers on your head, and so then. But I guess there was a

bird of paradise stuffed inside the British History Museum. And

I guess there was a heist in like 2007 or 2008 where a guy

stole all of these bird specimens. So they.

He could make fly ties with them and go fly fishing with these

birds of feathers.

Feathers. Isn't that, like, fucked up and wonderful. So

that's fucking I'm sorry. I love museum heists, especially with

British Museums, where it's like, oh, these things belong to

us. It's like, No, you stole them from all your colonies.

Yeah, you deserve to be heisted. Yes, I love all that shit. So,

yes, I love it. So it's interesting. It's got heist and

it's got stuff about Darwin and his kind of counterpart, Alfred

Russel Wallace. Who know Wallace? Russell? No, another

guy with three names? Who else? Yeah, confusing, everything.

He also came up with the theory of evolution right around the

time that Darwin did. It's one of those, like, rare

that Carl young thing. What is the Carl young thing? Oh, the

collective unconscious. Yeah. It's like that. It's like that,

like,

yeah, yeah, the same thing. We're, like, two different

ideas, or the same idea as born at the same time,

scientifically, in two different places. Anyway. It's fantastic.

It's really good. So that's the feather thief. The Feather

thief. It's super nerdy. If you're into it. That sounds very

cool, though. No, that's something I would read. Yeah, I

find myself like now that I'm writing so much more fiction

than I was last year. I have a really hard time reading fiction

right now, so, but I need to keep the well filled, because I

read like 100 books a year, so I'm just reaching for non

fiction like crazy. Yeah, smart, yeah. No, that's good, yeah. And

also, it's like, you don't have to analyze it in the same way,

exactly,

oh, oh, writing the things that you have made and ruined for me.

Corinne,

what are you reading? I think you know the answer to that

question, yeah, but I'm asking you anyway, I finally, well,

okay, I'm like 20 pages away from finishing the road to Joe,

you said you finished. I thought I was gonna finish last night,

and then I was just so tired, so I'm gonna finish it by this

weekend, but it, in my defense, it's like 460 pages long, which

I know you read in like three weeks, so kudos to you.

But anyway, she's flipping me off.

It's taken me like four months to read this. I am not a slow

reader. I don't know what my problem is. She told me that I

needed to be antagonistic and set deadlines for so I'm trying

to, yeah, okay, anyway, but I'm almost, I don't know what you

need,

no, but I'm almost, but I'm also like the stage now where it's

like the massacre or the killing is happening. Well, maybe you

don't even need to read that part. Yeah, just feel like I do,

just get to last like 10 pages. So everything before that was

interesting to read that. Oh yeah,

I finished this. All right, I'll leave. How many pages? Like, 10.

Fine. Five times Read the last chapter, five pages. Yeah, okay,

and then you'll be done. Like, you don't have to read

everything. I know, well, I'm like, the same way though, like,

I have to finish books that I started. But here's the thing,

here's the loophole with that, is you can skip pages in between

where you already know what happened. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, that said I am i

I'm between books. I'm reading your book right now. Um, I'm

reading the first baker's dozen book, and all this talk about

it. And I am reading Simone de Beauvoir's the second sex. Oh,

just the right reading, just like and really depressing the

hell out of myself. I love her, though she's so she's amazing.

So there's this line. I don't know if you've seen the movie

Moonstruck with Sharon Nicholas page, I have, I have love it.

Yeah. Well, you know, there's that part where Olympia Dukakis

is like, Why do men Chase women? I think it's because they fear

death

and like, there is an entire chapter where she talks about

men are afraid of women, because women remind them that they're

going to die with their like physical processes. And I was

just like reading that whole thing, and all I could think of

Cosmo,

one day you're gonna die just like everybody else.

Yes,

yeah. Anyway, I'm gonna find something more fun to read.

I finally finished the Obelisk Gate.

Yeah, the second in the Broken Earth trilogy by NK Jemisin, I

love her. I love her. Yeah. Oh JT started reading The Fifth

Season. Oh yeah. And he just like, he was on a plane. I

picked him up from the airport, and he's just like, I see why

you like this, and I see why you like rocks. Now, I

was like, Well, I mean, you know, we'll call them a little

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's amazing. She's amazing. Mm, hmm.

Anything, anything else you'd like to talk about. I could talk

with you ladies for hours. I'm sure we could talk about all

sorts of things, but no, I think we covered, I don't know. How do

you feel like we did, I think we covered a lot. Great. Yeah,

good. I'm not an expert, but I hope I shared my take on things

so far. I think you did great, yeah. So type, I learned a lot.

I mean, it like I knew a lot of the things that you were talking

about too, but you phrased them in certain ways that it was just

like, Oh yeah, yeah, you're right, you know, just Yeah. What

a different spin on it. What are we all doing? Yeah, that's

mostly my question. Okay, let's

not get off

well, you're drinking alcohol, I'm drinking coffee, so that's a

great mix.

Yeah, all right. Well, hybrid pub scout is hybridpubscout.com,

Twitter and Facebook at hybrid pub, Scout, we're on SoundCloud,

Apple podcast. Please go give us a five star review. Yes, give us

a fun review. Yes, live for fun. Yeah, just and we'll read it out

on here. And, yeah, you know, tell us who you are, and maybe

we can give you a nickname. That'd be fun. People love

having nicknames. Sure. I'll make them up. I'll do it.

Koreans really good at that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So please see

you should write reverse harem, because you can give the guys

each a nickname. Oh,

I can't argue with that.

I will think about

it. I love that.

All right, well, thanks for listening and thanks for doing a

roof. You.