Episode Summary:

In this bonus episode, Andy Williams and Emily Horgan join Eric Calderon of Surviving Animation for a candid debrief straight from the Kids Screen conference floor in San Diego. With a smaller-than-usual attendance, a shifting industry landscape, and more than a few big questions hanging in the air, the three take stock of what Kids Screen looks like now — and what it might need to become.

Key Takeaways:

1. Smaller crowd, better conversations. Attendee numbers were down, but the quality of conversations was up. The frantic "hard sell" energy of previous years gave way to something more honest — people asking each other how they're really doing and what they're trying next.

2. The old guard model is done. The days of "what does Netflix want?" panels are over. This year's conversation centred on anime, K-pop, webtoons, Roblox, and YouTube — and crucially, the buyers in the audience were the ones taking notes.

3. The audience is there. The business model isn't. Platforms like YouTube and Roblox have the kids. Nobody has quite figured out how to build a sustainable revenue model around them yet — and the group are refreshingly honest that no one left San Diego with the answer.

4. Jonathan Haidt stirred the room. The keynote took a hard line against social media and called out Roblox and micro-drama sessions directly. The reaction was mixed — some applauded, some walked out. The group discuss whether a blanket ban approach is too blunt, and make the case for a more graduated, age-appropriate ladder of access instead.

5. Kids Screen itself is at a crossroads. With attendance below a thousand and a move back to Miami on the horizon, the conference is grappling with an identity question: if the traditional buyer-seller marketplace no longer functions the way it used to, what is the event actually for? The group land on a compelling answer — relationship deposits. You're not closing deals, you're laying groundwork.

6. Do the thing, don't just attend the session. Sitting in on a YouTube strategy panel no longer counts as a YouTube strategy. The studios generating the most excitement were the ones actually experimenting on new platforms — making mistakes, learning fast, and trying again.

7. Humility is the new competitive advantage. Whether you're a veteran studio or an independent creator, approaching new platforms with curiosity rather than authority is what separates those who are adapting from those who aren't.

The mood heading into 2026? Cautiously determined. As Eric puts it: stop surviving, find the fix.

Let me know if you'd like to adjust the tone, length, or structure of any section.

Foreigns here.

This is a bonus episode of the Kids Media Club podcast.

When Emily and I were in Kids Screen at San Diego, we had a chance to sit down with our friend Eric Corderon to chat about the.

About Kids Screen as a whole and share our impressions on the event and to talk about the industry in general.

Was that the best worst Kids Screen ever could be?

Maybe.

Maybe not.

Well, I am here with two thirds of the Kids Media Club podcast.

I'm with Emily Horgan and Andy Williams, and we're going to talk about it.

Yeah.

Welcome to a special Kids Media Club podcast episode with Eric Calderon of Surviving Animation.

It's fun to get together.

Yeah.

Good to get together, guys.

I mean, we listen to each other a lot, see each other a lot.

So to see each other in person is, like, surreal and cool.

Awesome.

We shut down the bar one night, which is great.

Yeah.

You are a very close virtual colleague.

It's so nice to have you.

Legend.

Physical guys.

Let's hug it out.

Hug it out.

Hug it out.

Yeah.

Right?

Bring it in.

Bring it in.

And that's actually a great way to start it.

I think the reason I think this is the best worst Kids Screen ever.

Yeah.

I just feel like this was the year everyone got a lot closer.

Yes.

Yeah.

You know, a lot of the people we've been working with for years, a lot of the contacts we've been buying and selling with, it just seemed a little less mercenary than prior years.

It's not like the hard sell or, please hire me.

It's kind of everyone going, man, are you okay?

What are you doing?

How are you pivoting?

And I felt that closeness with everyone.

Yeah.

People are saying the attendee was smaller than ever.

I'm like, yeah, okay.

But is it more distilled than ever as well?

Right.

Like, it was, like, a lot less volumes and a lot more maybe quality, I would say, in terms of the conversations and stuff that I was having.

Yeah, absolutely.

I kind of felt that last year, people were still kind of reeling from a lot of the changes the industry had gone through, and this year they were able to kind of take stock and.

And it felt like it was pragmatic and positive and a bit more focused, even though it wasn't.

No one was under any illusions that things were fixed, but they were kind of motivated to find a solution for the problem.

So I think that's my impression.

I'm with you.

And I also felt that there was kind of this push towards the middle.

You know, I think a lot of times when you're at these markets, there's the high end executives, the big buyers who feel like everyone's running after.

They're kind of like sitting on their high horse saying I'm going to buy this, buy that.

And then there's like so many horses.

So many horses, so many horses.

And then there's like kind of the entry level people who come in like really desperate and they're like, this is my kids screen, I'm going to sell it today.

And they've got their puppets and their props and everything like that.

And we still had props.

Yeah, there was props.

But I feel like the middle is kind of where everyone is going.

Like the hiring executives are meeting us in the middle.

The people who are coming in are coming in with knowledge like direct to consumer and YouTube and like everyone's kind of like on, oh, we're all in the center.

Yeah, it's equalizing.

Yeah, absolutely.

I felt that some of the people that were kind of new to the market in some respects, the people that were, were more experienced and had been in the market a long time were looking at them not enviously but with curiosity in terms of, well, how have you made YouTube work?

I mean there's a, I think there's a cross pollination of ideas and people trying to learn from the new entrants and the older entrances.

Yeah, totally agree.

I think there was, I think there was like there was a certain, not to keep with the horse metaphors, but there was a certain like at the races mentality when it comes to new platforms.

I feel like this is only my third kid screen.

Right.

But I feel like Roblox and YouTube were like still around the peripheries in the previous two.

I was at like, we'll have a session here, we'll have two sessions of the next one.

And whereas I feel, you know, the, the content was curated in a way, it was like, no, Roblox and YouTube are here.

They got a load of creators here, a load of devs as well and studio and Roblox Studios.

And it wasn't like, it wasn't like, what, we're inviting you to join the kids industry.

It's like, okay, no, they are the kids industry and we're, we're all in the same pool.

Which I thought, I thought that was, I thought that was.

Yeah, that was, that said it.

That set a good tone, I think.

Yeah.

And it's an absolute changing of the guard.

I mean, I think I remember coming two years ago when it was.

No, last year when in San Diego and going, I'm tired.

You know, nothing against them, but I am really tired of the what does Netflix want?

What does Apple want?

What does Nick Logan want?

Panels.

Because we all know.

And they're not buying, they don't want anything.

You know, and so this year, the fact that they kind of switched the whole narrative.

Yeah.

And it went from anime to K pop to webtoons to Roblox to YouTube.

That was the conversation.

Yeah, yeah.

And you see the buyers in the audience going, yeah, how should we get on to 100%?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it used to be that those panels and then that was the case about five, ten years ago.

I remember you'd see those panels of commissioners and then for some of them, you think, how many shows have you commissioned recently?

Right.

And now I think the question with the roglocks and the YouTube sessions is split.

But it's kind of connected, which is.

But how do we make money on those platforms?

Correct.

That's the new question.

Correct.

Yeah.

And I think it's going to what I'm going to call the worst part of Kids Green, which is no one's got the answer.

And the industry is.

And the industry is in a really messed up situation.

And I think the conversation really centers around the old school model of commission based cost plus survival through show pickup.

Yeah.

And like the.

There is absolutely no money, but massive audience and all these brand new platforms.

Yeah.

And no one can figure it out.

And that's the worst part, is that we're all looking at each other saying, have you figured it out?

Yeah, have you figured it out?

I mean, did anyone give you guys an answer?

Yeah, but I'm not telling you.

I'm up to make 5 million.

That's right.

Yeah.

No, Emily has the answer.

Her commission rate is in the comments.

No, it is, it's consulting.

No, free consulting.

That's our, that's one of our catchphrases.

But yeah, no, it.

The answer is is.

Is inescapable.

Like the.

No, don't have the answer.

The answer is out there.

Has to be.

But like alongside all this is, you know, age restrictions around social media.

Like, what's that going to do to YouTube?

There, there's shoe.

Shoes.

There's other shoes that need to fall in the situation still.

I feel like there's, you know, there was a good ground set at the conference this time around to be like, YouTube is here.

No one's making any.

Like the revenue is the issue.

They have the audience.

They don't have the business model.

Right.

Right.

And that's the problem.

Roblox is here, it has the audience, but we don't have the business model.

Right.

And yeah, I'm afraid I don't have the answer on it.

But the social.

This next kind of sort of fall in the social media age restrictions, which I think are coming definitely from a European point of view, which will ultimately influence the builder platforms.

Once that lands, then we might be able to look at a more static landscape, perhaps.

But why would I ever say a static landscape when it comes to kids?

But yeah, that's where I am.

It is difficult to say static landscape because it's going to change next year.

It's going to change in six months.

Yeah, yeah.

But that did touch upon something I thought was really interesting about the way the sessions have been curated because it feels like there are a number of different forces almost kind of moving in different opposing directions.

So we had the keynote today which was very much about social media ban.

And this is Jonathan Hate.

Yeah, I didn't make that one.

What was, what was your takeaways?

I mean, it was.

Was pretty harsh in terms of his opinion on stuff.

So it was like, Roblox is terrible.

He commented on some of the sessions that have been and said that he pulled out the micro drama session and the Roblox session and he said the industry shouldn't be doing stuff here.

Oh, my gosh.

How did the room feel?

Well, it was interesting.

Some were kind of clapping and cheering and a couple I noticed left early and I wonder whether they're like, this

guy doesn't get it.

Yeah.

And maybe it's gone.

If that.

If you work in Roblox or if you work in social media for kids, then I'm not sure what you do with that information.

Yeah.

Apart from maybe kind of give it all up and check into a monastery or something like that.

We'll become a monk.

So, yeah, that was.

That was interesting.

Wow.

And I mean, I kind of.

It was one of those ones where I agreed kind of broadly with the gist.

But there are a couple of comments that he made where I felt that I wasn't quite on board with.

So he talked about his own kids saying that, you know, they.

Wow.

And I think the problem with being a bit older is I think you.

Yeah, go on.

Yes.

It's like I think you can be in danger of reducing the distance of time between two points.

I would have thought that was bonkers.

And.

This is the same distance of time.

We're just.

We're just viewing it from a different angle.

Correct, Correct.

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

I see what you're saying.

So.

Yeah, that's interesting.

So you did a really good job of kind of balancing what you think the opinions for and against him are.

But what does Andy Williams think?

For what?

For his speech.

Like, are you on board with it,

with the social media band and also

his general opinion on those platforms?

Yeah, I mean, I think that in some ways we're looking at quite a crude response to it.

And I think there is an argument for having maybe a ladder of freedoms and access to social media as you get older rather than saying you can't have it at all to your esteem.

I think, I think that maybe like

YouTube, kids YouTube, teens YouTube.

Yeah.

And something that was just a given in kids TV is how.

How much the audience kids changes dramatically from one age to another.

I mean, they change in years.

And it's just when you reach.

When you get into grown up TV that it tends to be kind of broader.

But we had ratings.

Yeah, you'd have a rating in front of the show that tells you if it's appropriate.

Yeah, yeah.

And if you were marketing programs, you'd.

You wouldn't be mixing up the audience for preschool or Bruce preschool with.

With an older animation.

And it'd be very distinct.

And the advertising also kind of lets everyone know, am I in the right party or not?

Like, if I'm watching a show and all the advertising are like medications for blood thinning, I'm like, oh, yeah, this is marked towards me.

I'm watching the right show.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

So I kind of feel like there's maybe a more nuanced approach than, with.

Than is being advocated, even down to.

He's very.

He was very down on shorts.

And I think if your diet is just shorts, it's a bit like just eating snacks.

Yeah, it's not a good idea, but maybe snacks and within a balanced diet.

Yeah, maybe that's.

Maybe that works.

And so.

So maybe that's more.

It's interesting.

It's the media diet for kids.

Got it.

Yeah.

All right.

I kind of want to switch gears a little bit and I think it's a topic that we can really only talk about this year, which is Kids Green itself is in a little bit of a crisis.

Right.

So they moved to San Diego two years ago.

They're in the big convention center.

Then they move to this new venue that we're at right now and then they're going back to Miami next year.

And we've seen the numbers significantly decline last year.

This year, I think it's the first year under a thousand attendees and we're going to go back to Miami next year.

Is the convention in trouble?

Yeah, I don't know.

Like, it's, it's a tough one.

It's a tough one to say.

I mean, I think I kind of, I'm at the, I'm at the pointy end of the issues right around the location.

Okay.

It's like I live in Dublin, so there's no direct flight to San Diego.

That's a pain.

And I know a lot of Europeans find that.

But equally San Diego's proximity to la.

Right.

I was able to pick up a couple of meetings there before I came down.

There's a lot of west coast based execs who have kind of, you know, will trip down here for a little day or there's, you know, more junior folks on the team are being sent here with more of a, like a learning thing.

And so there's, there's bigger teams here that I don't think will fly to Miami.

Oh, good point.

What do you think, Andy?

I think conferences are under quite a lot of pressure because in some ways the original reason they were created is to kind of introduce producers to buyers and that dynamic has been radically disrupted.

So if the landscape is everyone putting stuff on YouTube, there's less reason to have a conference because you're not really introducing buyers and producers in the segment.

That's right.

The whole mission statement changes.

It does.

And that, and that's, I think it some ways, like the rest of industry is trying to grapple with where their place is now.

You've just hit on something really powerful because I neglected to remember that the main purpose of the meeting is handshaking of buyers and sellers.

And you know, we all benefit from the educational part and we all enjoy going to those sessions and hearing it.

But this is not an educational convention.

Yeah.

It is a buyer seller convention.

It's a market.

Yeah.

And if that, if that marketplace is destroyed, who's going to come to like a purely educational academic symposium?

Yeah.

It's a very different market.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

That's interesting.

Wow.

Wow.

Okay, so I want to ask both you guys, you know, personally and I'll answer for myself as well.

Like, how was the market for you?

Do you think this was successful?

Did it serve the purpose of you being here and, you know, what did you get out of it?

Yeah, I mean, it was a. I found it a more productive market than last year, partly because I feel like in some ways the reduced amount of people here means that everyone's quite serious about trying to solve problems.

Like anything.

You're not really sure which meetings are going to result in something kind of material right at the end of it.

But you're.

But you're so in seeds that hopefully you kind of will turn into something.

But it's on that case, to your point, it's not at all like the former kids screen was successful because I sold the show to this buyer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Binary conversation's gone.

Totally.

But I just don't think that's happening.

That hasn't happened for years.

Right.

Like, yeah, you know, the actual buying happens away.

Like, it's the relationship build that happens here.

And I have to say that's, you know, what is this better or worse than last year?

For me, I'd say on par and different reasons or whatever.

You know, I think we've spoken, Eric, about the mourning moment for the industry and where it is and having to kind of process those feelings.

And I definitely finish off 20, 25 in that moment, survived January, got a kid's screen and was like, ugh.

But I'm leaving feeling better, reconnecting with people and like those.

The opportunity, like buyer, seller, market.

Yes.

But it's not that anymore.

It's like that opportunity to, you know, to just make a relationship deposit.

Like, that's what this.

That's what this gives.

Make a relationship deposit.

That's a great phrase.

Great phrase.

You know, because you don't.

They'll pay off.

You don't know when the.

You don't know when the bond's going to come in.

Right.

And it might never come in, but, like, you've had an assumption you've met.

You know, it's all those connections that come through that, you know.

Yeah, they're really.

I totally agree with you.

And I mean, there was an article written many, many years ago called Take the Damn Lunch.

It was in an animation magazine, like in the 90s, and it was like, people don't do deals with people you haven't sat down and had a meal with.

Yes.

And the fact that you could just like sit and have a drink and, you know, walk around casually and just.

You kind of get to see what that full person is about.

Yes.

That will change your decision on whether or not you buy or work with them later for all kinds of, you know, invariable reasons and you know, amorphous reasons that had nothing to do with the content.

Yeah.

But then it's like should, should the objective of the conference be repitched?

Right.

Like it's not a buyer, seller market.

Right.

No.

No one's going to buy a meeting in a speed pitch.

Right.

Or say buy, buy a.

Buy, buy a series.

Yeah.

Right.

Like they're just, it's just not going to happen.

Right.

Like.

Yes, the opportunity to meet somebody is, is really solid.

I think like the, the drinks and the mixes that they're doing, like that's, that's where relationships can build a bit and that's, that's what's being offered rather than some sort of, you're going to come in, you're going to sign on the dotted line and you're going to go home with that, with that objective fulfilled.

That's.

And I think that's what a lot of the, the, the first timers will think.

Yeah.

But maybe it'll change.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Well, I, I want to speak to one thing so I, I feel, I'm going to feel very excited because this is my best year ever.

Oh yeah.

It really, really isn't my best year ever.

Like, you know, for a couple reasons.

One is, you know, I've been in a full time company for four years prior to this that was kind of adjacent to the kids media business but trying to get in.

But you know, I was one of their like more experienced players in that and I just felt like the shackles were off this year and I could just roam and do whatever I felt like doing.

Calderon could Calderon.

And I could really, you know, speak my message and speak my brand and talk about the kind of relations I could put together, which I think are a lot more of like piecemeal of little victories and wins.

Yeah.

That maybe will add up to a full time paycheck over time.

Yeah.

But I just couldn't do this kind of small and medium sized deals.

Yeah.

And then it's like, you know, they gave me the anime panel at like the first day at 9:45.

Yeah.

And I was like, no one's going to show up.

Yeah.

It was like a full house.

Yeah.

And I've been getting high fives like all week of like the anime panel of course.

And I was like, this is great.

I'm like.

And then, you know, Surviving Animation gets its own panel, like a Tuesday at 2 o'.

Clock.

So, yeah, I don't know.

It's crazy.

I just feel like I've never felt this visible.

Yes.

And, you know, people saying, like, oh, I've watched your channel and I follow your stuff.

And it kind of dawned on me after talking with everyone this week that the purpose of what I'm doing on Surviving Animation, the purpose of what I'm doing outside of the day job on social media is to make sure that the water cooler is still there.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but the most informed.

But, like, I'm a veteran, like yourselves.

I can, like, start a conversation, have an opinion, and then let it.

Let it roll.

Absolutely.

And that got me so excited.

It's like, I've got a new mission purpose for Surviving Animation, which is just keep the water cooler going.

Yeah.

100% on the water cooler.

And not that it's not.

Not that it's a competition, but like, yeah, definitely.

This is.

The Water Cooler Club podcast were awesome.

We really appreciate everybody who reached out.

Yeah.

Like, it was just.

It's really overwhelming.

And it shows the need for these kind of conversations to happen, for them to be smart and informed and, like, really pull the problem apart.

Wait, are we not winners?

We're the winners.

It's the.

It's the kids.

You know, the Club Podcast and Surviving Animation are the.

The water coolers.

The person who can fix the landscape is the moon.

Yes.

Right.

Oh, that's right.

That's right.

We're just the pundits.

We're the pundits.

Waiting for someone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But Emily Morgan has a solution for a certain consultation fee.

You got the solution to all the problems?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I've got it.

I've got it.

I'm taking it back to Dublin with me.

Call me.

That's great.

Well, I also got to take a moment to tell everyone that we miss Jo.

Hi, Jo.

We miss Joe.

We'll see you when we get home.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We hope she can join the next one.

Yeah.

All right.

Any.

Any closing thoughts?

What.

What do you guys think?

Anything you want to say at the end of this episode?

What's.

What's the rest of the year looking like for you?

And any big surprises at Kids Screen?

Just a little.

A little.

I think it's just like, let's get on with it.

I mean, I wrote, I wrote to.

That's the other T shirt getting printed.

Just like a logo machine.

Amazing.

Yeah.

But I don't know, I feel like I over myself.

Let's just get on with it.

Let's just get on with it.

Right?

That's.

That's where I am.

That's where I am.

And let's get on with everything.

Like, let's get on with like building these water coolers together.

Let's get on with getting some deals done together and.

And leaning on the great relationships that are out there in the industry.

Got it, Got it.

Basically it's fixable or we know what the problem is.

Everyone's got to get their heads around what the solution is.

Yeah.

And I've already decided that we're going to have to get caps printed but with ship breaks in 26 and no free consultations.

Yeah.

I just snore.

Yeah.

Joe, we're coming back with the next plan.

We're coming back with the merch planet.

The merchandise is sorted.

Well, one thing I want to say, and I think this has been my theme moving forward, is I realize that the people who are going to win, the people are going to really make it as we go forward, are going to be people who dive into a couple new areas they've never done before and just make a bunch of mistakes succeed.

But no one can be the classic development exec of oh who's going to read your notes and we'll pitch it and you'll get sold and no one's going to be like the.

I'm the single skill entrepreneur.

Yeah.

That doesn't happen.

Doesn't happen.

The producer at Economy of the Creator economy are colliding.

You need to know how to do everything.

And the most exciting animation studios I speak spoke to this week were the ones who are finding a way to make it work on other platforms.

Yes.

In.

In.

In small capacity, in medium capacity, in big capacity, but in a real capacity, not just like attending.

Attending the YouTube information session at Kids Green no longer ticks your YouTube strategy box.

You need to be doing right.

You need to be doing.

Yeah.

And failing and trying it and learning.

Yeah.

And I'll do the.

The counter side of that.

A couple of studios that I met this week who admitted they were failing in those Platforms.

Okay.

And trying to do those social platforms and is because they were trying to jam an old school podcast promotional strategy to YouTube and it doesn't work.

Nope.

So you got to speak natively on each platform, and I think you've got

to approach it with humility as well.

One of the things I find really inspiring about the work that you do is that you kind of approach it with you.

You approach it with humility and confidence,

if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm a learner with endless endurance.

Yeah.

You know, so, like, when I launched my initial, you know, my blanket thing with flow and, you know, doing the flow throw as a license and merchandise program, I just made so many mistakes along the way.

I lost so much money in the first couple weeks, but I just get up again and just keep typing.

Keep trying.

Yeah.

Oh, that worked.

Those three didn't, but that worked.

And over time, I kind of.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think there's a lot of studios that aren't used to operating with that humility, and they kind of have to.

They have to.

They have to do that, really.

It's a bit of humble pie that needs to be eaten.

I'm eating a lot of humble pie.

All right.

You like humble pie?

I do.

Do I?

Yeah.

No, the best people do.

I like humble pie.

Right.

Like, just eat it, go for it.

That's true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, cool.

Well, that's it.

Thank you for hanging out.

I'm so happy to be here with you guys.

Always been a blast.

Yeah.

Cool.

Yeah, yeah.

Sounds good.

Bye.

See.

Do.

Do.

Sam dead.

But.