In the second episode of Job Match Makers, Brian and Sherry are joined by their Minnesota Transformation Initiative colleague, Don Lavin. Don explains how he left his cousin Vinny behind in New Jersey to begin his career in employment services for people with disabilities in Minnesota over a half century ago. He also describes how the field has changed since he started his first rehabilitation counseling job in 1973 (one week after the passing of the Rehabilitation Act, no less). Don reaches into his vault of memories to share one of his favorite employment stories from his decades of promoting customized employment.

Learn more about the Minnesota Transformation Initiative here: mti.ici.umn.edu

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Brain

Welcome to the Job Matchmakers podcast, where we share stories from employment consultants about supporting people with intellectual and developmental disabilities to find employment in their communities one person, one job at a time.

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Sherry

This podcast is produced by the Minnesota Transformation Initiative, a technical assistance center focused on expanding capacity for competitive, integrated employment across Minnesota. We are your hosts, Sherry Healey and Brian Begin, and we work at the Institute on Community Integration at the University of Minnesota. Thanks for joining us.

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Brain

Welcome, everyone, to episode two of the Job Matchmakers podcast.

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Sherry

For our second episode, we will be sharing a story of one person finding one job. But we're also going to be diving into the evolution of employment services for people with disabilities. Over the past half century with our guest, Don levin. Don is a colleague of ours at the Minnesota Transformation and Initiative Project, and has been working in employment services for people with disabilities in Minnesota for a very long time.

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Sherry

Actually about 50 years. And he helped to write Minnesota's Employment First County.

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Brain

Welcome, Don. We're looking forward to our conversation today. Can you start by telling us how did you get into this work?

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Don

First, thank you for inviting me to be a part of the podcast, and I'm hoping that my 50 years of I've learned a few things that I can contribute to your listeners about my career. I would like to say that, my career pathway was well researched and planned with, you know, impeccable milestones. But the truth is that didn't work that way.

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Don

Even my being in Minnesota is quite, quite a story of happenstance and running into an acquaintance that I went to high school with that was going to school out here in Minnesota. And if you can believe this, he dropped my application and my my name and my application to the registrar's office, and they sent me the application and I sent it back.

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Don

And the rest is history. I, ended up coming to school in Minnesota because of a chance meeting with a friend.

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Brain

And where are you from originally?

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Don

I'm from new Jersey. I'm from the New York area.

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Brain

Now, is it true that you have a cousin named Vinny?

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Don

Not only is it true that I have a Cousin Vinny, I also have a cousin named Sal who is his brother. But actually, my Cousin Vinny is. He's a sweetheart. He's a very easygoing guy, a upstanding Christian man, and you'd love to meet him.

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Brain

I hope that I get to someday.

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Sherry

Don, you started your career when policy was just beginning to support services for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities, to succeed in what we now call competitive integrated employment. Can you tell us what the field looked like when you started and how it has evolved over the past 50 years?

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Don

Well, let me start by saying the way I connected to the field of rehabilitation is that I went through the rehabilitation counseling program, which was at that time called Mankato State College. It's now Minnesota's state university at Mankato. So I had a degree in rehabilitation, and I was, looking for a job in the counseling area, but I didn't want to work in the state's civil service system.

00;04;07;25 - 00;04;40;09

Don

I wanted to work for a private nonprofit. Organizations. So I started my first job in nineteen seventy three as a rehabilitation counselor. And for those of you that are doing the work today, it's probably going to be hard for you to imagine what it was like, because at the time that I started work, if people wanted to work in competitive, integrated employment, they had to go through job placement services in a conventional way.

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Don

So in other words, we were looking for jobs where people would be qualified to fill those positions, looking at want ads, looking at jobs that were posted. So back in nineteen seventy three, we didn't have customized employment. We didn't have discovery and customized employment or supported employment. There was no such thing as job coaching. There was no such thing as assistive technology applications.

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Don

Even proposing, a high level of a need for job accommodations was just unheard of at that time. So really, the shocking news for you is that sheltered work so or what's so often called extended employment in our state or even waivered center based services. These were considered innovative community options back then. We were still very much in a period of time where institutions were running and segregating people with significant disabilities.

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Don

So I was working in a time when my own job as a counselor and then eventually as a manager, was not guided by public policy, by research practices at what we're calling today, evidence based practices like customized employment or dedicated funding to do this work in the ways that we know today. So it was really quite, an interesting time.

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Don

I like to share with people that I started in October 1st, nineteen seventy three.

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Don

But the Rehabilitation Act was signed on September 26th of nineteen seventy three. So not even a week had passed. And the rehab act was actually one of the very first civil, civil rights bills, you know, that guided professionals like myself at the time. I spent, you know, decades working with colleagues. I, you know, I had enough experience with work based learning to know that the work that we were doing in sheltered work, work activity centers, as they were called at the time, or day services, were really a lifetime of, segregation for people with disabilities.

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Don

And, of course, had nothing to do with people making informed choice or having pathways to self-determination. So, you know, maybe I'll broaden with this conversation a little bit. So on the national scene, you know, over those decades, we had the Americans with Disabilities Act signed. We had the workforce Investment Opportunities Act signed, Ida, the individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

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Don

We had the Supreme Court decision, for Olmstead, which galvanized the rights of people with disabilities to live more inclusive lives than they were living and receiving services to, you know, at the time, people were largely served in segregated centers and sheltered workshops. If they had significant disabilities, if they were not in institutions. So these were really important public policies that guided us, in some new directions.

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Don

We had the, the national ABC, the Association for People Supporting Employment. First, I believe that they were founded in nineteen eighty eight and our chapter in Minnesota, I believe, started in nineteen ninety two. So we were beginning to bring together a lot of like minded people who wanted to see a better life for people with disabilities and to make employment an accessible goal for those that were choose it.

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Don

I personally had some experience with one of the very first discovery and customized employment grants. So all of these were vectors, I'll call them. And, you know, you have disability advocacy, you have public policy, you have disability research on practices. You've had court settlements. All of these were pointing in a pathway that would give people the right to live more inclusively and to pursue their their interest in the career and employment area, if they so choose.

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Brain

Thanks, Don, for providing some important historical context to where we were and how we got to where we are today. So today, you're not directly supporting people with disabilities to find jobs, but you know many, many stories from your decades doing this work. Could you share a story that captures some of the ways that employment services have progressed since you started your career?

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Don

When you shared with this with me, I was looking into my memory banks here and trying to think of what one story do I have the time to tell because there are so many, so many incredible stories of, of opportunity and success. But I picked one that I thought hit a number of touchstones that I wanted the listening audience to hear.

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Don

The story I chose is The Gentleman's Name is Ryan Richardson, and I just reached out to him recently, so I have permission to, you know, share a story once again. So let me start by telling the story. If you're ready for me.

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Brain

Take it away.

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Don

All right. So here's where it starts. As you indicated, I left the area of management and of employment programs, and I was the executive director of the Arc Minnesota, a statewide advocacy organization in our state that, provides advocacy support for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities and their families across the lifespan. I shared a little bit earlier what was going on in Minnesota with, some of the public policy changes with the Employment First policy becoming, an active conversation.

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Don

By the way, as you shared, I did get other an opportunity to help write that policy, and it passed in two thousand fourteen. So it's about ten years ago. So it was around that time we were trying to get out to speak with family members and people with disabilities about what it meant, and I was asked to speak along with some colleagues of mine at a parent advocacy organization, Pacer.

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Don

And it was, like the name of the seminar was Work as Possible. And so we invited families from all over the state to come and listen to us speak about discovery and customize employment and the employment first policy that we were trying to implement. So I finished my presentation. I said, I think I may have shared a story or two about discovery and customized employment practice and what it could mean for people.

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Don

So after the presentation, a mom comes up to me and says, I loved and I am excited about everything you just shared. But I live in Buffalo, Minnesota, kind of a semi rural place. We don't have those services available. And yeah, I would like to make this available for my son if possible. But you know, what is your advice for me?

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Don

So what I said to her as well, it's not available in many places of the state, but I can't think of anybody that probably knows your son better than you. Well, what can you do to make it happen? And that opened the door to some long conversations. A little more background on her son, Ryan. So Ryan was diagnosed as neurodivergent.

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Don

He, was on the autism spectrum. The history she shared with me is that he struggled during his childhood years in both secondary, or in elementary and secondary education, not just academically, but socially. You know, he wasn't developing healthy social relationships with peers. So, you know, he struggled in those early years. And when it was time for him to graduate, the education system thought it would be best for him to go to a sheltered workshop and to a workshop type of program, an extended employment program with in Minnesota.

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Don

Ryan didn't want to go there, and he was kind of coerced by professionals working with him at the time that this was the best first step for him. He wanted job placement services, but again, getting to the low expectations, they didn't think he was ready for a job out in the labor force. So he was enrolled in the sheltered work program, didn't like it, expressed his dissatisfaction with his mom, and they decided together that it was probably in his best interest to quit.

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Don

So when I'm meeting with his mom, by the way, her name is Lori. She she shares with me that he is presently living in the basement of her house doing nothing, kind of depressed, very bored, playing video games, you know, doing whatever he could, I guess, to get through the day. So I had encouraged Lori to think about the circumstances in a whole new way.

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Don

And, I should probably share at this point that he was receiving consumer directed community supports. Kdka's. So Lori did have control of, some budget resources, and both she and Ryan could make some decisions about the kinds of services and supports that he needed. So based on the conversation we had at Pacer that evening, they decided to hire someone to do a discovery process with him.

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Don

And, you know, I can make this a very long story, but the short of the story is that through observations, conversations with people that knew him best, you know, interviewing him and others, they came up with employment themes. For Ryan, the predominant theme was aeronautics and airplanes. And so, you know, pausing just for a second, think about this.

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Don

He's living in Buffalo. What are you going to do with a theme like airplanes and aeronautics? It's not like they have an airport down the road from where he lived. But Ryan like to surf the internet, you know? So that's one of the things he was doing in his room. And they learned through some of his surfing that there was going to be a job fair down at the the Minneapolis Saint Paul Airport.

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Don

And, Ryan, his mom and the, the person that did the discovery process thought, this is worth checking out. Why don't we go down and see what we can learn? Because they're following through on the theme. Correct. So they go down to the job fair, and he's meeting with all kinds of airline representatives. And, he comes up to the booth, for some country, and they start talking with him about Ryan's interests and Ryan was blowing them away with his knowledge about planes.

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Don

I mean, he knew how many seats were in a plane. He know you know, how a seven. What the engines are on a seven twenty seven seven fourty seven. So they were like, whoa. They hired him on the spot. They hired him right on the spot because they were just blown away and so impressed with his passion for, you know, this work.

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Don

Okay. But we do have a problem, don't we? Ryan still lives in Buffalo, so I should share that Ryan's mom was not working at the time, and Ryan's mom felt that was important enough to support this young man's life. And she said, where? I'm going to drive him back and forth to work. She would drive him to work.

00;17;56;24 - 00;18;19;10

Don

She would wait until the shift was over, and then she would drive him home. I think initially he was working like three days a week. As far as the job itself. He was prepping planes with a crew of colleagues and employees from Sun Country Airlines, so they would stock they would clean, they would get the plane ready for its next flight.

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Don

And that was his job. And he was so excited. So I was close to 50 miles each way that mom was driving. Now when we eventually take care of this. But I just wanted to point out that, you know, when somebody has that strong an interest and this was to him a dream job, mom was willing to take it on and do what she had to do to make it happen for him.

00;18;48;19 - 00;19;03;04

Don

Eventually, they moved to Bloomington, so the commute was reasonable. But at the beginning of his job, he was, traveling, I guess close to one hundred miles a day.

00;19;03;07 - 00;19;35;28

Don

So things were going great, right? I, you know, I learned about him getting this job, and I was excited for him and for mom. And it was a wonderful story. But life happens, doesn't it? So Sun Country gets bought out by a new owner. And they decided to disband the team that he was working with. And they just some country decided to outsource that work to another company.

00;19;36;00 - 00;20;05;13

Don

And I don't know all the details and logistics of it, but essentially Ryan was out a job. So it's like, now what? Well, they move forward. So once again you can't always predict everything is going to go perfectly and according to plan. So they had to pick up the pieces and they began looking at other ways to get into the labor force, warning that there are companies that outsourced, some of this work.

00;20;05;15 - 00;20;34;01

Don

They began looking at companies that do that as well. And there was a company called G80 that stands for Ground Airline Transportation. I believe. And, they brought them in for an interview once again that were just blown away and impressed by him and his work ethic. And they offered him a job. But this time he was offered a job as a ticket agent.

00;20;34;04 - 00;21;03;21

Don

He was doing yeoman's work, cleaning planes and getting them ready for takeoff, not to do customer service and help, you know, people with, you know, their tickets. So in order to have a job like this, you have to pass a mandatory test. So they flew Ryan out to Washington, to Seattle to go through, a training with a cohort of people.

00;21;03;23 - 00;21;32;25

Don

And all of them had to pass the test in order to become ticket agents. So Ryan goes out there and he's going through the training with everybody, and they noticed that he might have some learning issues and pull them up and talk to him on the side. And he, you know, admitted that he did have some some issues with learning and it would be helpful if he had some tutoring and they hire a tutor to work with him on the spot out there while he was there.

00;21;32;28 - 00;22;00;22

Don

And he was getting some support from some of the, individuals in the cohort that he was out training with. And to make a long story short, with this piece of the puzzle, Ryan, some of the people in the cohort said we're not leaving until Ryan passes this test. We're all in this together. And, you know, with help and coaching and guidance from the from everybody there.

00;22;01;00 - 00;22;28;19

Don

He did pass the test, and he did come back to Minneapolis and was working as a ticket agent for several years. I kind of lost touch with him, but I was friends with them on Facebook and all of a sudden I'm seeing a post from his mom that they're in Texas, and I thought, what is happening here? So I reached out to Lori, his mom, and she said, oh yes, indeed.

00;22;28;21 - 00;22;59;19

Don

You know, Ryan was doing so well there. They had been wooing him for over a year to move to Texas to do work at the branch location at the Dallas airport. And it's like, what? Like I had never heard of a story quite like this where a company of anybody I was working with in the disability employment space was, you know, being transferred and being transferred because of their performance, because they just needed somebody with his skill sets.

00;22;59;22 - 00;23;21;01

Don

So what they did, they not only, transferred him, they paid his expense and they paid the expense of his mother to move with him. So it was really kind of a fun story for me, you know, to catch up with them because I had not realized what had occurred. So to make a long story short, he's, he's down in Dallas.

00;23;21;06 - 00;23;50;06

Don

He's still working for Gatti. He is the longest tenured employee in the Midwest for this company. He's one of four employees certified to work on a couple of new contracts that they have. He's still earning a competitive wage. He's working six days a week. He, uses some of the extra money he makes to, he bought a grill for himself.

00;23;50;06 - 00;24;16;18

Don

He bought a PlayStation for, you know, some of his recreational leisure is. I asked about whether how his social inclusion is going. And, of course, he's in another city now, and, he he's very introverted. So, you know, he's certainly he connects with people on the job. But beyond the job, his mom said, you know, that's, that's a still a bit of a struggle for him.

00;24;16;18 - 00;24;38;09

Don

So, you know, he, but he's working six days a week, so he's with people continuously. His mom said he he works like you said. He is in beast mode when he's working. When he's not on the job, it takes two other employees to cover the work that he's doing. He's currently. Now he's moved on from the ticket agent.

00;24;38;11 - 00;25;05;29

Don

He's now a ramp agent and works with, with some of the luggage and and the work there to get luggage moved. He's been recognized by his employer, including the CEO of the company. So it's such a cool story because it really touches on so many elements. You know, they they had to get through transportation. They had to get through a job loss because of the company leaving.

00;25;05;29 - 00;25;40;20

Don

And, you know, the company outsourcing his job to, to another source. It's it's really, really quite an amazing story. And from everything I'm hearing about this company, they their corporate culture is amazing. He receives no services in Texas from a disability organization. He's completely supported naturally by the company. Mom said that there is there are some issues where they have to customize support around him.

00;25;40;27 - 00;26;05;03

Don

You know, he's not very good at writing. And wherever you know where something needs to be recorded, you know, they provide an accommodation for that. His supervisor said if she could clone him, she would clone him because she needs more reliable employees, like like Ryan. So for me, it's kind of a fun story because of all that, the twists and turns.

00;26;05;05 - 00;26;28;04

Don

And it also covers job progression, doesn't it? So it's not just that he was placed in a job or found a job and stayed in that job forever, you know, becoming the ticket agent, you know, for somebody that is on the autism spectrum, becoming a ticket agent, needing to work in the customer service space, it's kind of unusual.

00;26;28;07 - 00;26;52;21

Don

And, you know, his moving and being able to to take the job in Texas shows that, you know, that they believe in him, you know, from going from three working three days a week to six days a week, working full time, making a competitive wage. You know, it's really transformed his life. And mom tells me that, you know, he's not the same guy.

00;26;52;23 - 00;27;03;17

Don

When you look at him, you look at his self-confidence, the way he carries himself. You know, he's, he's living his he's living the dream. He's doing what he wants to do.

00;27;03;18 - 00;27;43;06

Sherry

Yeah. Wow. That is it. Awesome story. I there's just there's so many elements to this. But it all starts with the decision that was made early on where not to follow the standard path and to say this doesn't seem like the right set for me and for then, you know, and thinking about all of the support that he received, not only from his family, but from his coworkers, from his fellow trainees, from his employers.

00;27;43;08 - 00;28;28;02

Sherry

It's just the community has really rallied around him. And here's someone when you think about the opportunity that would have been lost if he had stayed in a sheltered workshop, and if that was his life's, you know, it's so different than how he has blossomed. And really, as a role model now for people without disabilities. So it's just there's there's just so much, you know, in that story that is so inspiring and just feels like, you know, there's there are there's there's a different way to do this.

00;28;28;06 - 00;29;02;07

Don

Spot on Sherry. And to your point, look at where he could be or could have been or many of his peers who would have preferred to follow a pathway where their interests would take them. You know, I know it's a different day, and everybody's talking about person centered planning and self-determination and informed choice and, you know, when Ryan woman, who I was brought to my attention, that was certainly not on the table as a as discussion points.

00;29;02;10 - 00;29;13;00

Sherry

And there's still a lot of individuals with neuro divergent abilities who are sitting on a couch in their parents basement.

00;29;13;02 - 00;29;13;29

Don

Absolutely.

00;29;14;01 - 00;29;32;00

Sherry

So just taking that first step and, and getting to know the person and you know, that that, that starting with that discovery and really running with their skills, abilities, passions, look what can happen.

00;29;32;02 - 00;29;59;24

Don

You know, responding to your point here, when somebody has an interest in a job that sounds like it's way out there, you know, wanting to work in aeronautics when you're living in Buffalo, it would have been easy to blow him off and say, okay, now let's be realistic, Ryan. Right, right. Let's be realistic. So when we are today, when we are trying to identify employment themes, you know, how often does that come up?

00;29;59;24 - 00;30;27;20

Don

Well, it's nice that you have an interest in this. But you know, is that really a viable job. Is that really a viable job a pathway for you? And I know that there are many, many people with disabilities, especially those with complex disabilities, where we we try to reduce, you know, the possibilities to, you know, maybe these jobs would be appropriate for you, but not those.

00;30;27;22 - 00;30;50;26

Don

It's not until we really drill down and examine the full range of possibilities that, we can bring people to the correct job for them, the right job in the right space. And I'm so happy for Ryan that you know, that they didn't give up on this and that they did follow his, you know, his interests.

00;30;50;28 - 00;31;24;18

Brain

Thank you so much for sharing that story, Don. There was, so many points that jumped out to me and I was going to make note of them, but you already did that, right? Don't discount what a person is interested in because it could be connected to a job. Person centered thinking, person centered planning, supporting a person and what they really want to do, not what we think they're capable of.

00;31;24;20 - 00;31;30;18

Brain

Those are just a few of the takeaways, that that I got from from Ryan story.

00;31;30;20 - 00;32;11;13

Don

Can I have to say on one point, please do so how often do people with disabilities find jobs or there supported to find jobs? And we have in our Minnesota framework for employment first, engage, plan, find, keep. I like to talk to people about a fifth bucket called that I call grow. And the point that I'm trying to make here is that Ryan's pathway did not stop when he found that first job at Sun Country.

00;32;11;16 - 00;32;42;28

Don

It took on, the skill building that, frankly, I didn't know were possible for him. I don't know him. Well, but, you know, there were gambles made. Flying him out to Seattle was quite a risk. And it paid off. It paid off because said he, you know, it increased his wages. It increased his, you know, not just his skills, but his interactions with, other people who don't have disabilities.

00;32;43;00 - 00;33;09;10

Don

But how often do we hear of people getting a job and then they're in supported employment? Maybe they're getting bored, or maybe that maybe their wages have not been adjusted in a while. Or maybe they haven't been challenged to work more hours. So I know that this podcast is intended for direct service professionals, and some of whom might be delivering employment support.

00;33;09;12 - 00;33;36;14

Don

So I want to say to you, don't be satisfied that the job that people secure is the last job that they'll have or that what they are doing today, you know, is what they should be doing for the next 5 or 10 years. What is their career pathway and what are you doing as a support person to see that the individual grows as, as a person and as a an employee?

00;33;36;16 - 00;33;49;29

Brain

Thanks, Don. So I'm going to ask you one more question. This is something that we ask everybody that comes on to the podcast. What do you want people in your community to know about employment for people with disabilities?

00;33;50;02 - 00;34;27;10

Don

Okay, I'm going to make two points. And I hope the story here today has amplified on what I want to say here. The first thing I want to say to you is, don't underestimate the capacities of people with disabilities to succeed in the labor force. It may take a while to find the right job. If you've done a good job in identifying the individual's interests, talents, innate talents, capacities to contribute, follow, follow that pathway.

00;34;27;12 - 00;34;55;04

Don

You know, don't give up on people, because I don't know how many people I worked with personally or people that I supervised that worked with individuals that have succeeded, you know, beyond our wildest imagination because we did not give up on them. And then the corollary to corollary to that is, don't give up and don't underestimate yourself as a professional.

00;34;55;07 - 00;35;20;18

Don

You can continue to grow and you can make things happen. You went into this career field for a reason, so find that reason. Then find a way to support people to live their best life. And that means you need to grow as a as a professional, you know? And, I've seen it time and time again where people, you know, they didn't think it could happen and it did.

00;35;20;20 - 00;35;23;29

Don

And it will happen because you are the bridge.

00;35;24;02 - 00;35;54;05

Sherry

Awesome. Thanks so much, Don, for joining us today and sharing that really inspiring story, and also giving us that background, that historic perspective that I think also, you know, provided such a great framework for understanding where we are today, how far we've come and how far we still have to go, to really meet the individual needs of people with intellectual and developmental disabilities.

00;35;54;07 - 00;36;25;05

Don

My final comment on that particular point, Sherry, is, yes, we've come a long way, but we haven't demonstrated we can bring it to scale. We need to bring competitive, integrated employment and what we're calling community life engagement or meaningful day service to scale. And that's only going to happen because the people listening to this podcast are the difference makers and embrace the idea that we can make it happen for anyone who chooses it.

00;36;25;07 - 00;36;38;25

Sherry

Great point. And on that note to our listeners, we hope you'll join us again for the next episode to hear another great story of one person finding one job in the community.

00;36;39;01 - 00;36;43;20

Brain

Thanks, everybody.

00;36;43;23 - 00;37;01;16

Sherry

Thank you for joining us for the Job Matchmakers podcast, funded by the Minnesota Department of Human Services. This podcast is a partnership between the University of Minnesota's Institute on Community Integration and UMass Boston's Institute for Community Inclusion.

00;37;01;19 - 00;37;27;12

Brain

For more information on the Minnesota Transformation Initiative, visit our website. Linked in the show notes. We're glad you joined us, and we'll see you next time.