The fun part of The Mandela Effect is talking about the memories you share with other people that doesn’t necessarily jibe with reality. When you remember The BerenSTEIN Bears with other people and you all can’t figure out just why the real world has the book series written down as the BerenSTAIN Bears , it connects you with those people on more than one level.

Not only are you remembering something that you shared culturally, but it means that you’re probably of the same generation, or at least close enough in age to have read the same books when you were kids. And to top that off, you’re both remembering something incorrectly. It’s like an exclusive club where you have to answer three different questions to get in. So, people love talking about it because it connects them to others who are in a very specific tribe, a tribe defined by culture, generation, and shared (mis)memories.

We’ve talked about The Mandela Effect on the podcast before , it’s a phenomena that got its name after paranormal researcher Fiona Broome had a a discussion at Dragon Con in 2009 with other people who thought that Nelson Mandela died in the 1990s and was never let out of prison to return triumphantly to lead a post-Apartheid South Africa.

But it’s not that they didn’t know history, it’s that they remembered his funeral, they recalled seeing it on television. They have memories of it. In our reality, Nelson Mandela didn’t die until 2013, so how do you remember something that never happened?

It’s been a popular topic in paranormal circles for the past few years because more than just questioning what’s possible in our physical reality like ghosts or psychic powers do, The Mandela Effect makes us question reality itself . It opens up science fiction possibilities of parallel universes like Star Trek or the idea that we’re exisiting in some kind of simulation like The Matrix.

The new film, The Mandela Effect , explores those science fiction possibilities to create a narrative out of these shared mistaken memories that we all love talking about. Starring Charlie Hofheimer (Peggy’s boyfriend Abe from Mad Men !), Robin Lord Taylor (The Penguin from Gotham) , Aleksa Palladino (Jimmy’s wife from Boardwalk Empire) , and Clarke Peters (Lester freakin Freamon from The Wire !), The Mandela Effect has a solid cast of actors that you’ll instantly recognize.

And the acting particularly in a film like this is important because it centers on an emotional hook, this is an indie film and not some kind of special effects extravaganza. It looks great and does have a bunch of cool effects sequences, but that’s not where the heart of the story lies. Screenwriters David Guy Levy (who also directed) and Steffen Schlachtenhaufen take a fairly abstract concept like The Mandela Effect and turn it into a narrative that even non-paranormal aficianados can appreciate.

When the lead character learns about The Mandela Effect, he starts questioning the nature of his reality. And after a tragedy rips his family apart, he starts becoming obssessed with the idea that he can change the past. It’s this quest that leads him to meet renegade professor Dr. Fuchs, whose controversial ideas about our universe actually being a computer simulation provide a potential pathway that could alter history, but lead to either salvation or insanity.

We got a chance to watch the movie before the podcast and it’s a fun thriller, that most importantly, doesn’t use any narrative cheats even when it would be easy to pull the heartstrings. It provides a satisfying emotional story as well as some clever plotting but for paranormal fans, the real treats of the movie come from all the Easter Eggs. The Mandela Effect includes almost every example people have put out there on the Internet, but you’ll have to watch carefully to catch them all.

We talked with writer/producer Steffen Schlachtenhaufen and writer/director David Guy Levy about the movie as well as stuff like:

• What are the real life paranormal influences that inspired the film?
• Why doesn’t anyone else remember The Thirteenth Floor?
• When have they experienced The Mandela Effect in their own lives?
• How do you get great actors in an indie film?

You can watch The Mandela Effect on Amazon Prime and iTunes right now.

Welcome to See You on the Other Mike, where the world of

the mysterious collides with the world of entertainment.

A discussion of art, music, movies, spirituality,

the weird and self discovery. And

now, your hosts, musicians and entertainers

who have their own weakness for the weird, Mike and

Wendy from the band, Sunspot. Episode

276, Mandela Effect, the movie.

Now we are here, with the people behind the movie. That

is, writer Stefan Schlachtenhaufen and

director David Guy Levy, and as well as we are

joined by my sister from Milwaukee ghost.com, Alison Jornlin.

But, California gentlemen, how are you enjoying the wonderful

weather while we're freezing our junk off here? Well, actually,

it's pouring rain here, and it's gonna be raining and cold for the next week

or so. So usually, we have it a lot better than you

guys, and I know because I'm from Wisconsin. Oh, wow.

It it, yeah. It's it's a little chilly right now. Alright.

Well, good. You deserve it.

No. But I wanna congratulate you guys on the premiere of the film, The

Mandela Effect. The Other World Film Festival. Is there

any relation to you guys? Probably not. Oh, no.

Unfortunately, we're not big enough to have our own film festival yet, but just give

us a couple of years and some funding. We'll see what happens.

Well, the other worlds festival was was the first time it showed, publicly, but

but really the the the big premiere is is coming up next week,

here in Los Angeles. If you're in LA, we're doing if you're

in Los Angeles, we're doing 2 nights of screenings that we'll all

attend at the theater it's playing at, and there's still tickets

left to the Saturday show. So if you get on our social media, you could

find the link to that. So I just wondering in the beginning.

So we've talked about the Mandela effect before in the podcast and and to

explain it to people, it's the idea that when you remember something

in the past, your the memory is almost

what you remember in the past isn't necessarily how it actually happened. So the

Mandela effect comes from, this woman, Fiona Broom,

and she remembered that Nelson Mandela didn't

make it out of prison, and he in 1994, but that he

died, in the South African prison. And

so, this idea when Nelson Mandela actually died

in our present reality, people were

saying that, like, I I remember Nelson Mandela dying back in the day.

So how does that jibe with the news report I just

saw? Yeah. She was in a she was, like, at a conference, and there's,

like, a lot of people around her when he passed

passed away in, you know, from at the Mike more updated version

of reality, you know, the the the one we all know now. And,

she was with, like, a bunch of people, and they were all confused. And they

all sort of collectively called it the Mandela effect. And

then she started sort of, I guess, putting a

pinpoint on this phenomenon, which I'm sure probably existed before then.

But Yeah. Cataloging other instances. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in

in my own life, I mean, the whole Berenstain or

Stein and Stijn Baers, I mean, that one

does it for me. I'm Mike That's what got me. I know. It

was you know, I know it was Stein or, you know, it was it was

not stain. It was definitely not stain. I Yeah.

I always pronounce it Berenstain Mike Frankensteen. Yeah. My wife

my wife says steen. I always said steen, which luckily

not stain. But there's definitely not stain. Not stain.

Yeah. I and that that's a really weird one because it's so,

like, you know, it it it doesn't seem

to matter. You know? It it's one of those tiny little

details, but it really gets in there because you're Mike,

no. Ira, I clearly remember because I was like,

are these Jewish bears? You know, I this is what I

was When I first, heard about him, that was the

one that hooked me into the whole thing. I was I was with Stefan's

brother-in-law, who I went to film school with.

His name's Trevor. And he'd we were sitting having lunch, and he

just said, you know, you know the Berenstain

Bears? And I said, oh, yeah. Of course. He's like, you know, it's called the

Berenstain Bears. And I was like, what? And that just was rabbit hole

opened. Yeah. I mean, it's for something so

small like that, seemingly insignificant, makes

you question your whole reality. So what got you

guys interested in making a movie about it? Because it's one

thing to, you know, take a traditional, like,

paranormal trope, like vampires or werewolves or stuff that people kinda

understand because they've been inundated with their entire lives, And then say,

like, okay. We're gonna pick this newer topic and

try to make a movie about it. Like, what was the impetus behind that? Well,

I think maybe that lunch with Trevor because then I think I called Stefan pretty

quickly after that. I was like, have you heard of this thing? We should be

talking about this. You know, and then I think, you

know, obviously, we all grew up with really interesting movies like, The

Matrix. And and there's a Fassbender movie, called World on a

Wire, which once I started going down the rabbit hole with Stefan, we

both started watching too because it's about living in a simulation.

But, you know, I was looking at simulation theory just randomly at the same time

as Mandela came up around. So when we were looking

at, you know, ways to approach the material, the angle that,

maybe a third of the theories are sort of simulation related. I think that's

what interested us the most was, you know,

that scientific side of it as opposed to maybe more

stretch more of a stretch to the theories that stretch a

little further into maybe fantasy. You know? And I and I

think, at that time, it was it was right around,

the 2016 election, and there was a lot of

conversations, being had about, I mean, on on

on on news yeah. I mean, it was it was definitely in the

zeitgeist, not just as a as an Internet, Mike, but but

thematically, we're we're sort of at this crossroads where

where, reality can can be manipulated. Our technology is

starting to to reach that point where where,

people can can create artificial shifts in how things are perceived,

or can exploit people to,

to to to question, reality on a mass

scale. How would something like this happen if there wasn't a scientist wanting to gather

data? Because it's Mike, there's no logic to a lot of it. So it

seems like, You know? And I think there's, like, there's also 2 ways to

approach it, you know, too. Like, there's that that public shared

reality that we all have, Mike, when Trump got elected. But then how do

you get, you know, how do you really have a character that you can relate

to if, they're sort of if it it's sort

of more external than that. So interestingly

enough, like, my my wife got cancer. And then a few months

later, Stefan's dad got cancer and, like, everything in our personal

lives too was just, like, intense. And so, you

know, like, when that happened, you know, you have to think

your personal life not making sense. And I think we

definitely found that having a character with his own

personal grief that, you know, was relating to

the public thing with these more broader,

pop culture references, but then also having personal memories

with someone they care about that were being changed because of that was sort

of our angle into the story. As a the couple of things I I

wanna kinda expound upon there. Number 1, that idea of so we

we have these shared Mandela effects with all these other kinds

of peep you know, other other people with, like, all the Berenstain. Like, everyone

here in this podcast right now had that experience with the

Berenstain Bears. They're like, what stain? Get you,

you leave here, like that's fighting words. And,

and then, there's personal things. Like

you were saying that the way we remember things ourselves, Mike,

especially the painful stuff. And and that's kinda, you know, the

emotional hook of, the film is

around a father who has a very great loss happened to him.

And then when all these different things

in reality start shifting around him, it's the idea

of, can he regain what he's lost? And

I think that's a that's a very powerful hook because it takes something silly Mike

the Berenstain Bears, or we can go on some of the Easter eggs that you

guys put in the movie of all like, you guys hit almost all of the

ones out there of the shared Mandel effects that people have

experienced. And even, like, if not in your face, definitely, subtly, there's

stumped up stuff that if you go, oh, wait. They did do that. Yeah.

I mean, we we wanted to we wanted to pay homage to all those that

people have, have an attachment to. But we knew that that

wouldn't sustain a movie onto itself. And then we also decided early on,

we didn't want this to be Mike a like a spy thriller. So,

you know, we kinda pulled everything back to a smaller story about this family,

and then then applied the sort of these bigger ideas to that

that sort of tragic, story. And, because

it can be on on a huge level. You know, when you were talking about

reality shifts, I just I just saw a deep fake made by

MIT this week, and it was Richard Nixon

saying that the, astronauts on the moon had to be left behind

because of, you know and and so it was this idea of, like, they

they created a deep fake of Richard Nixon, you know, saying that Buzz Aldrin

and Neil Armstrong didn't make it home from the moon. And it

looks awesome. I mean, it look I mean, it looks awesome. It looks like a

19 late 19 sixties video news

video, and it sounds like Richard Nixon, and it looks like

Richard Nixon saying it. And you're just saying that going, well,

now that I've see I mean, this is the kind of stuff that can get

into people's memories for the rest of their life. Yeah.

And so the Mandela effect does suggest something that I guess I

hadn't thought of on a on a deeper level, but,

you know, people using shifts in reality to kind

of emotionally manipulate humans and

votes and opinion and all those kind of

things that can have a big effect on our regular

reality. So I think it's interesting that you used the 2016 election

as a kind of a like, a point of what that's made you

was inspiration for the film because when something so

unexpected happens, like Donald Trump becoming like, the guy from The

Apprentice becoming the president of the United States, something you know, wherever you are

politically, it I mean, it doesn't matter. Nobody saw that coming. Not even

Donald Donald Trump reporters saw that coming. Yeah.

I've gotta say, as a paranormal researcher, I mean, that's the

one thing I've gotta Mike, which if there's anything that's ever happened to me,

that's the one thing where the the silver lining is that it really makes me

believe in the paranormal. I'm like, if that can happen, anything can

happen. That's right. Set your set your mind to it, kids.

Anybody can do it. And but but using

that idea, though, because that okay.

If reality can be so affected, then the Mandela effect might

have far more reaching implications

than just having it be something silly, Mike, Luke, I am your

father kind of thing, and which, you know, you

guys got that scene in the movie. Did you have to, like, did you have

to beg George Lucas, like, go to the Star Wars

ranch and, like, fall to your knees and be like, George, please let us use

some how do you get Star Wars footage in a real movie? I was like,

George. George. Come on, George.

No. We were very careful

with how we presented these different things in the movie so

that they would be legally covered by fair use

law. And so we worked with specialized attorneys in

fair use law who then, you know, will,

make sure that you're fall under it. And there's moments when we wrote stuff or

shot stuff where they said this doesn't work anymore. You have to rethink how you

present this, so that it does fall under fair use

law. And then they they write you in a letter. And since they're sort of

established long term people in the industry, an insurance company

will will give you the insurance you need to release your movie.

And so if they do have a problem with it, it won't cost you anything

to talk about it in court. So that's sort of

how a lot of people behind the scenes. I find that best to from tomorrow

was that Disney movie a few years ago where the people, like, shot the whole

movie at Disneyland. Like, the same lawyers did that and supersized

me, and room 237 was all fair use. And that's all the

same attorney, like Mike Donaldson, who just does this.

And so, yeah, we used them. And Okay. Mike, this one

still has that bigger feeling of connecting with the world we are all

sharing together. You know? But it's it was critical that that that those

pieces were part of the the public discourse. We couldn't there's no

way you just pull any any moment from Star Wars.

Yeah. It was just part of the commentary. Moment. Yeah. Well, and

that's the thing, because I'm sitting there going Mike, what did they have to do?

Did they have to Mike bribe Mickey Mouse? So Mike, how do you get Star

Wars footage in your movie? So that's cool. If this was a studio film, it

might have been harder because then you have the in house lawyers going, this makes

us nervous. But as an indie film, we don't have anyone sort of telling

us not to do stuff. So you sort of came to take risks you couldn't

do if it was a bigger movie. Well, an indie film, though, with a a

great cast and I mean,

Mike, when I was looking for the cast, I'm like, okay. They got Clark Peters

from The Wire. Well, alright. Now, like, that's

I mean and I know this may not be particularly paranormal unless

like, how how did you get him in the movie? Did you read the script?

He's like, this is great. I was Mike, Clark. Clark. Clark.

George George said to give me give you a call. No. I mean, he

was on a short list of people we were interested in, someone who just

feels wise and and and someone who could

also play a character who was a little broken as we sort of as

as people will see in the movie. He's got his own life stuff that he's

been dealing with. But, you know, so do we take him seriously or

not? Is he helping Brandon or putting him further down the wrong path? It's sort

of all a question. And he was one of these actors whose presence without

direction already kinda can do that. And as Lester

Freeman on The Wire, you know, he was this person he could always look up

to. And then and his other work too. He just has this this

wiseness to him. And even in real life, he's just a very Oh, yeah. He's

got a lot of gravitas. He's got a lot Mike that. Yeah. A lot. Yeah.

Yes. Which is why gravitas Ventures is distributing the movie because they

saw Gravitas. Exactly. Yeah. Synchronicities,

dudes. Well, he also he also

portrayed Mandela in the earlier project. Yeah. I didn't realize

that. After we cast him. Yeah. But that isn't cool.

But no Maybe he thought maybe when he read the script, he's like, oh, it's

another it's a Nelson Mandela bio. That sounds great. We went to him, and and

the thing is he loves existential thinking. Oh, he really is

a big thinker. And now there's YouTube videos I found of him talking about

different, you know, just heady ideas and philosophies.

And you could tell he just likes talking and thinking about things in this

realm. So, like, it was just the material. You know, we were lucky

that he read it and said, oh, this is cool. If I can make the

time and we had to do some creative scheduling because he had some other shows,

but, he sort of made the time and went out of his way to make

sure he could make it work. And it was kinda thrilling because, you know, he

didn't need to, but he did. Well, his presence certainly

adds, like you said, the gravitas to the film and his character is

somebody that needs to be,

not it it could come off as a mad scientist right quick.

Right? So somebody who doesn't have that kind of presence, could

make the role less

less majestic and more,

you know, more laugh not necessarily laughable, but with a, like, a

a crazy glint, which kinda that would move the the film in a

different direction, I think. And it it just felt Mike trailer trailer

responses. Like, I'll get online, and I'll look at people reacting to the trailer. Like,

that's a thing now. There's, like, trailer reaction people.

And, for the future, it sucks.

Right? And a lot of people, like, I think he's sort of helping

shape their perception of what this film might be. Because, you know,

he has an impact immediately on people when they see him. So

it's kind of perfect because if we had someone who just wasn't as interesting

or couldn't hold the camera's gaze, it would have, yeah, been a different movie.

Well, you know and Mike you were saying that, you know, Clark Peters

might be open to talking about the big

questions and philosophical ideas and stuff. As,

you guys have worked in, like, paranormal reality TV before,

so is that something that you have had a natural affinity

for? Or were you just like, I need

rent? We did not get to pay rent with

this movie, unfortunately. Yeah. But I I mean, I I Mike

it. I work a lot more in documentary,

television, not so much reality, but but a lot of the

stuff I've worked on has crossed over into,

either paranormal or or cryptozoological or or sort

of sort of big concept Mike what

if science shows, like Life After People and things like that.

But, I I mean, I've always I've always been David

and I have both been sci fi and and horror genre fans for

a long time. Our first project together was was a horror film. I think

that we both share an appreciation and an

interest in in, in those genres and

in those fields of study, frankly. I mean, when,

even on even on, like, a folk folkloric level, I really, really

love jumping into a research

project for for one of these shows. And it certainly helped influence some

of of what we did in in this, just

in in in finding different, points of view and different

stories and applying that to the to the to this to our story. Well,

what I thought was cool was that, it does go deeper than

just the Mandela effect because I I was like, well, how are they gonna make

a movie about this? And I'm watching all I could think of was that, like,

there was a new Twilight Zone episode. If you remember, like, in 19

eighties, they did a Twilight Zone, and a lot of cool cool directors did, like,

Wes Craven did episodes to be Toby Hooper did episodes. And they

had a specific new Twilight Zone that was about a guy who was,

like, specifically it was really, like, particular about language,

you know, and so he was very snobby about his language. And

then what was happening is that language

was, like, reframing around him. Like, language was

shifting so that instead of the word lunch, it the word the

word dinosaur now meant lunch kinda thing. And so in the

end of it, he has to relearn language from his

daughter, who's just learning how to read and speak, and then he's gotta

relearn how to read and everything. And that's his comeuppance for being

such a word snob. Or I think the writer must have had a horrible

English teacher or something like that that he wanna take revenge on,

for that particular episode. And so that's what I was kinda thinking. I was like,

oh, it's a Mandela effect movie. It's gonna be like this Twilight Zone movie, but

for an hour and a half. But then you guys took

it into the, a completely different, like, paranormal

idea and the idea of the the life is a simulation. You

before you mentioned The Matrix, there's always The 13th Floor, which is

a simulation movie that everybody forgets about. Everyone keeps talking about

that, and I wish no one ever brought it up to me while we were

shooting. I wish I'd watched it for some influence. I'm a have to watch

it. I've heard that title a lot lately. Yeah.

And, and then the Dark City. Dark City, I remember. Yeah. Dark City was huge

for me. It's all all those all those had, like like, a lot of stylistic,

similarities to the Matrix, even the ones that came before the Matrix. But

it kinda got all it's like The Matrix sort of steamrolled those other films,

and they they kinda got, clumped together. And and I don't wanna say forgotten,

but but definitely as time goes on, more and more overlooked. Well, they definitely

forgot the 13th floor. Yeah. Like, nobody's talking about that today. And that was, like,

the same time as The Matrix. Right? That was, like, same day. That's what I

mean. I just Same day. Yeah. The Matrix is second fiddle to the

Matrix. Yeah. Now when you guys were doing research on the idea of the

Mandela effect and of the, you know, the

universe perhaps being a some kind of simulation,

how far did you get into the weeds when it came

to, like, the, the different people that have been paranormal? Like, writing about this in

the paranormal field for a while. It's pretty easy to say that and,

you know, this might offend some people who are more sensitive to, you know, different

opinions. Like, I've noticed that in the Mandela Effect community that

who, you know, sometimes self labeled as the affected. People

don't like to hear your opinion because it might not match theirs, and then they

they get sort of sensitive about it. But without trying to, you know,

piss off people, you know, I can easily look at

Mandela effects and explain them to Mike. You know, like,

the monopoly man versus the peanut man, you know, and how we could easily

meld with those memories. Our memories are very fluid. But, you know, when you start

thinking about, you know, those are flags that draw you to

bigger ideas Mike simulation theories. You

know, then it's harder Wendy

science and smart debate comes into

it. It's hard, to sometimes explain it. And

there was one moment in the rabbit hole when, there's this guy on

a panel, Neil deGrasse Tyson, called doctor James Gates. And I don't know if you're

familiar with him. And there's a clip of this in the movie. It's brief. But

he works on supersymmetry, which is Mike the branch of physics. And

he discovered what he describes, as what appears

to resemble computer code, called error correcting

codes embedded in equations of supersymmetry that

describe fundamental particles. And, you

know, and they resemble what

programmers use in browser Wendy,

you know, and and computing. And the fact

that the building blocks of life resemble the building blocks

of computing is just something that makes the

emoji with the head exploding, you know, make the most used one I use

now. Because it's just Mike, you know, how do you then turn

that off and and and try to be like, oh, well, that's just,

you know you just really start to go, like, oh,

there's really something to this. And then when you think about the mathematical

likelihoods of it being a simulation being so exponentially

greater than it not, you know? Like, if you look at Nick

Bolstrom's work and and his hypothesis on

simulation theory, it's so

much more likely that we are that you know?

However, you know, I still feel heartburn, and I still, like, hurt

myself, and I feel very physical and alive. But and and that's

how I try to keep myself from going insane. But, you know, when you look

at these ideas, it's hard to argue them. And a lot of people

just don't argue with them. You know? So Dave Dave got really deep into the

weeds, Mike, to answer your question.

I was always I was always yeah. I mean, I I think we

always wanted to, re remember,

that that we still would have an audience that might be watching

this and and, being introduced to some of these ideas for the first

time. So, you know, it was always a a matter of

sort of bringing the story back to to these people and the and something

more relatable, but all along influenced by

these by these bigger concepts. But it wouldn't you know, it just wouldn't be

a a film you couldn't sustain it with with just presenting

one idea after another. It had to be this emotional journey. It's sort of Mike

the film is now a gateway to people to finish the movie and then

go look into stuff. You know, like, we've we've shown you little bread

crumbs. Now go go down your own little rabbit hole. Talk about it with your

friends and family after watching it. But, you know, these ideas are out there.

And now you maybe might be aware that that's a way to kill some

time. So so you're really thinking of it as a way to,

you know, motivate people to actually look into the phenomena phenomenon

for themselves? Sure. I mean, yeah. I

think so. I think the idea has always been Mike, you know, even if they

like the movie or don't, I think the thing we're hoping to get out of

it is a conversation that's not a movie that's forgotten. Like, I go

see movies and I forgot. And by the time I get home, and it doesn't

pop into my head again. But, you know, like this movie or not, I think

when you get home, it's gonna pop into your head, and you're gonna have more

questions, and you're gonna wanna spend some time exploring those ideas. Well

and, you you know, as we're talking about exploring big picture ideas, you know,

breaking that down, there's the emotional element, which, you know, drives a

narrative is, you know, often is going to be something that happens,

to someone and then they that's what kind of sets it off. And,

of course, this movie has its the the what

happens to the main character that kind of sets him off. But when you guys

are trying to explain big ideas

to nontechnical viewers that you

find yourself in the creation process or the writing and the rewriting

process, like going through and going, okay. Too

nerdy, too weird, too you know, but there's certain things that you

had in the original drafts of the script that you're like, hold on. This part

puts the audience to sleep. Is there was there anything in particular

in trying to express those big picture ideas that you

had to go back and, like, rewrite, to kinda simplify them?

Well, there were, like, concepts that we thought works with the

material, and we maybe tried to see ways to get them in there.

And then we're just Mike, you know, it's not necessary. This is just fat that

we don't need. Yeah. Sometimes it wasn't in the writing

process. You'd you'd you'd realize it on set. You'd you'd hear the actors

say a certain line and it's Mike, this isn't really needed. We we understand,

you know, we don't we don't wanna have to spell everything out. So

sometimes just just seeing it the the subtext and the performance might might

bring something out. Mike, quantum entanglement and Schrodinger's cat were

big things for sort of just the ideas

behind how, you know, the universe might work in my head too.

And then I was you know, you look at the material, and you're like, yeah.

But that doesn't help the story we're telling. So, you know, maybe you just get

a frame of a show to your cat on this computer, but that's all you

get into the movie. And right. Which is obviously when

you're getting into the, because quantum physics is always such a

people use that as, like, a word for god now. You know? They'll be

like, well, obviously, this is true because, you know, quantum physics.

And you're like, hold on. I mean, that's the that's the ultimate, you know,

deus ex machina or whatever it is. That's a shorthand. Einstein

believed it. So that's it. Spooky action at a distance. Movies over,

pal. It's great they're sci fi films. I'll tell you. It

explains a lot. And so,

you know, one thing I'm interested though is that as you said, you guys always

had an affinity for supernatural and horror, and now you're

coming in to create a fictional narrative

based on a modern, paranormal

topic. Have you guys ever had a

paranormal experience? Had did you guys have something in general that you're like,

well, I've seen something weird. Dave, you wanna go? Yes, sir. I was gonna say

you go. I have to think about it. You

you order your dinner first.

You know, I I I haven't,

you know, I I haven't had a a

an easily identifiable paranormal experience.

Though I will say, many times in

my childhood growing up in the in the woods of North Central Wisconsin,

there are times where there's just a,

especially at night, especially crossing from

our bunkhouse to my grandparents', house, late at

night where there's there's a there's

some sort of presence, something

and I don't know if it's just just the environment and just just your imagination,

but but, I have had that feeling of

of being watched and feeling vulnerable

in a in a place that is secluded or remote. That was just

me, buddy. That was me. Oh, yeah. Okay. Just me. And I feel a lot

better now. But yeah. So so I I'm I'm open minded

to it, and I I love talking to people that, that have had those

experiences. And, you know, there's there's almost this hope

that we discover something, tangible or that I can

experience something tangible. But, yeah.

Probably why we look at this genre, you know. It's because, like

like, we want that, you know, that's why movies like Fire in

the Sky scare the shit out of you even though they're really corny Mike. Yeah.

The the last Wendy minutes of Fire in the Sky are Definitive

alien abduction. Cinema. Some of the scariest stuff on film are, like, in the

19 nineties. There's 80 minutes. They're just horrible, though.

Like, James Garner. When you meet Travis Walton, though, I

mean, that's No. That's it. For me. You know?

Mike and Bob Lazar, when you hear him speak, you're like, man, it's hard to,

like, not believe this guy. He just doesn't want to be talking to you. And

then that, like, adds credibility to it. But, for me,

like, I had a moment that stuck with me as a kid. But at the

same time, I am also very aware that I was a child with a very

active imagination. So, like, I kinda immediately, as a child,

also wrote it off as that. But I, had a I grew up and spent

a lot of time in Colorado with my family, and the Trail of Tears had

actually gone through our property. And I

always sort of, had this memory of

Native American ghosts, like, hanging out with me while I was sleeping,

you know, at night. And I was I have that vision, but that's

again, you know, I was, like, single digits. So it's

hard to really say it. Maybe I just wanted imaginary friends too. But

it wasn't like a friend. It was like I was like, oh, is it gone

yet? You know? But I have that vision in

my my brain for sure. In your in your bedroom or or just you were

Yeah. We had Mike this this my sisters and I shared a loft and they'd

be asleep and I'd Mike look up and I'd see like, is that that's a

is that the Indian ghost? That's a whole Native Americans.

Sorry. But it was like I mean But as a kid, that's not what we

called people. Yeah. So, like, for the memory I have. Yeah. Yeah. So

probably Cherokee. Right? Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. I think also

Also on the Trail of Tears, it's not like they're gonna be like, hey. Who's

that white guy? Let's make friends. Yeah. They're gonna be drag a little bit of

sleep. Then I always had Mike a yeah. Exactly. And I always had

this vision, you know, that's that happened to me. But, you know,

I'm also, like, kinda skeptical when it comes to those things. I'm, like, yeah. I

also, like, imagined having hoverboards too, you know. So

Yeah. But what would be awesome is if you got together

with a sketch artist and,

to see what you recall. And then I draw my

uncle. I was like, oh, that's uncle. Uncle

Steve. That's weird. Watching me. Well, at least you would know

then. Or match it up with, you know,

pictures of the time, and see if it,

if it looks like it could be a Cherokee person. There might be

details in there that that you couldn't have known that That's that's cool.

Surprising. Yeah. That is cool. Just an idea. You know? Because

I I'm a person who, you know, has investigated the

paranormal for about 20 years now, and I just remember, you

know, being so frustrated for so long

because there's there's so much slack out there,

and nonsense. But then, you know, when you have your own experience,

you know, you always have this feeling Mike a moment of something irrefutable.

Right? Like something I can't Thank God that's happened to

me because otherwise, you know, with all the crap

that's out there that I've had to put up with recently, you know, I would

run the other way into the waiting arms of Richard Dawkins. You know,

that's that's where I was, but That's why this one

was so exciting though because, Mike, there were moments when I'd

be Mike, I can't actually wait. This makes sense to me. Oh,

god. This makes sense. You know? And it's Mike yeah. Yeah.

Well, the great thing about this movie is it it kind of combines

those things, you know, the numinous and the scientific.

And, you know, there are very intelligent people who

who are seriously considering simulation as a

possibility. So, I mean, that's true to Bakku and Sam Harris,

Elon Musk, like, they're all talking about it. Like, well, don't dismiss that.

And he, Mike, it's Yeah. Like, what is Sam Harris? Yeah. It's like, when

does he ever get a cameo in a movie? You're Mike like, hey. So I'm

Mike, I was looking at, like, when I was writing down notes, I think I

put Sam Harris with an exclamation mark. Yeah.

I put I put the pirate bay with an exclamation mark too because it's

of course, like, he's looking for something that he can't find. You know? And

so he's like, well, I'm just gonna go to the pirate bay. Like, that's

what everybody does. You know? You can relate to

the movie that through the pirate show. Right. Complete well, it's it's those

little things. And, like, oh, there I mean, there's an Art Bell quote in there.

You know? There's there's a call, and then, like, I'm like, is that Art's voice,

or is that, like, something like just talking like art? But it's

it's those kind of things that, like, they like, the

story is, powerful in its own way as someone

dealing with loss. And I think we all have that kind of

feeling where there's things in our past that we wish were different.

Mhmm. And the Mandela effect Or there will be. Or the or Well,

I'll I'll be there. Yes. And

it's that idea that, you know, I I wish that things

were different. And, to some people, now

they're seeing these little parts in their life that, woah,

things were different than how I remembered them. And then how would

we go then about kind of figuring out a way to

make things more like the better memory? Yeah. Or, or, or it's the inverse.

You, you, you cherish a memory, you

cherish the experience you had with, with somebody that you may have lost and

you don't want that messed with. You don't want, you're

afraid of that changing or somebody changing

it, that that precious memory. So it's it it could kinda go

both ways. I'd say precious memory. That sounds like

isn't it like a Precious you're thinking of precious

moments. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Precious. That sounds good.

Okay. You you can be a man and say precious. I'm Yeah. No. I just

thought I was talking about the, the figurines or something from No. No. No. Yeah.

What we're what we're planning on doing is, like, everybody on the podcast then gets

a little engraved heart necklace. We didn't tell you about that. Oh. We get that

at Precious Moments. No. But then I,

like, that idea, though, the memories you don't wanna mess with, but

they can be messed with and also questioning them. You know, we've talked about that

a lot on on this show because we've talked about alien abduction experiences,

and we've talked about, doctor Elizabeth Loftus's experiments

with memory. And I had a college friend that worked in her laboratory,

and they would do experiments where they tried to inject fake memories

into people. Like, not inject, like, with a with a, syringe or

whatever or with pills, like on the latest Watchmen, but

they would try to, you know, subtly give people fake

memories and then see if they would remember them themselves. And they

found that just by suggestions,

or having a line in a diary or something, people would

remember, remember things from when they were a

kid that never happened, that they could create fake memories in

people. And to me,

like that fallibility of memory and that memory is constantly changing

and that you are re you know, whether or not we actually live in a

simulation, which we totally do, by the way. I agree.

You know, whether or not we live in a simulation, it's the

idea though that our mind is simulating memory because it's remembering,

sometimes it's remembering how we remember it. You know?

If that if that makes sense. Like, instead of remembering the actual event, we have

our memories of the event, and then our mind is recreating the event in our

heads. It's not like a photograph, but it's like a like a

sketch artist redoing it every single time. Yeah. It's your

cachet. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So

what happens then when people watch your film and they

they, have that moment of ennui, that

existential crisis? What can you

suggest? Are you guys ready for that kind of responsibility? Yes.

What can you suggest to, to kind of

moderate the ennui, or or to get yourself out of it, or, you

know, what do we do if we're living in a world of shifting sands? How

can you even decide what you're gonna have for breakfast? Well, you know, like,

one thing that I always that leads to, like, the onset I I never thought

of it that way before. But, like, one thing I have thought about is, like,

well, why don't Mike care anymore if it's all simulated?

You know? And there's a scene in the movie

where, Clark Peters is talking to

Charlie. So the doctor is talking to Brandon and

says, you know, like, do you remember the feeling you had when your

daughter was born? The tears on your cheek when she died.

Like, that you get to feel these things should be

real enough. You know, Mike, it's Mike, alright.

Yes. But it could be fake, but it feels real, and

that's sort of all that matters. If it didn't feel real,

then maybe you would have the questions of, like, well, why do I care? You

know? But if the illusion's working So the authenticity

comes from the quality of your emotional reactions.

I think so. I don't know. You know? Like Yeah. And I and I think

what I like to think, you know, if there's any positivity to it, that's it.

You know? And I think we still have, I I think I think we have

to acknowledge that there's a lot of forces that would like to put us

on on, rails and,

not control everything that we do, but certainly guide us. And whether that's,

just, you know, our own consumerism

or or, sort of how we're programmed by social

media to to behave certain ways or and that can all be exploited.

But we still have our own, we can still we're still, like, self governing

beings. We still make choices. So it's it's

making good decisions as you progress

through life and and being aware that there are,

that there are others that that might wanna guide you one way or the other,

and and and finding out and learning about yourself, learning

learning what you're susceptible to and and how you can respond as

you as you're as you're confronted with these these these choices.

And and so yeah. So he so the main character in this movie is not

a robot. He you know, just because he might be in a

simulation, he's but he's he still has his own, self self

his own consciousness, his own his own self will. Yep. So this

really has could have social implications for people. You know,

you're thinking that that, I, you know, I really Mike what

you said about that that there are people out there that

would control you or, you know, want your dollar or want some want

your vote or want something from you, and you have to

be aware of their very real presence in

your lives. And, you know, make your decision

Mike your decisions in life with that in mind, you know, that there are

ulterior motives. Find out what those are, inform

yourself, and then make decisions based on that. Well, it doesn't have to be

the ulterior motives don't have to be bad. Like, it's not like it's not like

skeletors behind everything. And he's like, you're right. It's not right. Right.

Although at times, I feel at times, it feels like someone's 13 year old

son got into the lab and is just having fun. Of course. Mike,

when you're playing a game, you're like, alright. I'm just gonna jump out of this

plane and see what happens to this character. I'm like you know what I mean?

Like Mike, oh, god. Not today. But I feel like

that when I turn on TV, and now it's like you you watch something and

you're like, oh my god. Ow Mike Balls from Idiocracy is real.

Yeah. Mike mean, he's the controller. Yes. Yeah. He's got

the controller, and he's like, what are they gonna do?

But, yes, idiocracy, like, has aged really

well. Yeah. What? Idiocracy well, it's horrifying.

Idiocracy wasn't just a it it should be a history book, or, you know,

it's a it's a like, a documentary. But the thing is is that I

Mike what you said there, though, that we do have our free will. The character,

it's in his expression of free will instead of I don't know if it's a

spoiler to say that instead of this it's not like some kind

of French new wave cinema where the main character,

like, sees this bigger reality and then just says, well,

I have to accept it now, and just goes off in the corner and smokes

cigarettes for another 15 minutes. It's you know,

that the the character, you know, is driven to agency

by seeing the bigger reality. And, I mean, I think

that's the the kind of message where you just said, yes. People are trying to

influence our decisions. We're I mean, you guys are trying to influence people's decisions about

what to do. They wanna you want them to go see the movie. We're trying

we're trying to influence people's decisions. We wanna listen to a podcast or listen to

the songs we write for the podcast, that whole kind of thing. And,

and that's okay. It's just understand that people are trying

to not necessarily manipulate us, but they're trying to attract us and know

that I wanna go towards the things that enrich and bring value

to my life versus the things that just make me like

me and the rest of the world stupider. Yeah. Take the power back,

bro. Yeah. And and and so and part of that and part

and part of what happens in the film is is accepting some of the bad

things that come with Mike, And and for that character

to to to grow, I think he had to accept the

the tragedy that that happened. The

what he perceived as a simulation, try to give that thing he lost back,

as as a way to stop him from from moving forward

and Perhaps. It's a little yeah. I mean, there's there's different

ways to interpret it. But but, yeah, it it it dovetails with the hands.

Yeah. Yeah. There's ways to interpret it, for sure. Yeah. You know,

I I mentioned before the deus ex machina, and there's not you

know, there isn't a point, like, I was expecting more and certain

narrative cheating, you know, in the

film. And that it was a really, it was a real delight to not see

that the narrative cheating, and the kind of the

story makes sense from beginning to end. And

I wasn't quite expecting that. Still leaving it a little confusing

enough. You know, like Well, I mean I kinda wanted people to still do,

like, scratch their head and and, you know, but yeah. Go on also.

No. I was just saying, so as far as the film goes, it is

narratively satisfying in that way that it's not

something just magical happens at the end and be like, well, it's magic.

Bye. It was all a dream. Right.

So, no. We do encourage people to check out,

Mandela Effect, the movie. Now if you're not in Los Angeles and can make the

premiere, like 99% of the United States, how

can you see this movie? How can we

watch it? Well, let me tell you what the other cities are,

if I have them. Yeah. So if you are in Orlando, San Francisco,

LA, Minneapolis, Boston, Philly, Cleveland, Houston, Denver, Mike

areas, Go to our Mike service. A good portion.

Yeah. They'll be in theaters, like, 1 theater in each city for, like, a week.

But, honestly, the easiest way, obviously, is just to order it on

VOD. It'll be on every VOD service. So if you order movies

from your cable provider or from, like, Apple TV or Amazon, it'll be

there. Vudu, your video game machines,

same day. So December 6th, it's coming out. And it's

gonna Okay. It's gonna be a tipping point is what everyone

it's it's something that's behind the comments of everywhere. Mike, this

could be the tipping point. I hope not. Everybody

Mike, it makes art. Where were you on December

6th? Yeah. I don't know. I I apparently, some movie I never heard

of, like, shut down the simulation.

No. But it's it's that kind of thing, though. Movies with big ideas

give you a chance to, you know, rethink that and also explore more in your

own life. And so that's one of the reasons we encourage people to watch movies

with big ideas so we can have conversations about them instead of

just, I don't know, talking about who's gonna win

in a fight, Superman versus Iron Man. Oh, they live in different

universes, though. But what if the what if the simulation

combined the universes and then Superman and Iron Man were the same universe?

Like, we could talk about that all day, but it's movies like the

Mandela effect that let us think about, the bigger issues than

just, who's got the better, titanium

armor or whatnot. Right. So we talk about the, the

eternal, the essential questions that we all grapple with in life.

So that that's why we really enjoyed the movie. So grapple with your

Xbox in order to mental effect. Meta. Let's go meta.

Have you guys thought about, like, the next project or anything beyond

that? And also maybe going back to the,

real life paranormal topic well? Well?

Oh, the well of ideas. You know, like Yes. The well of up. Pulling

up the bucket of Pulling up the the the body or the girl

from the the girl from the ring. No. No. I know Stefan and I

are always, like, drawn to just big ideas. Like, okay, here's the

situation. What if? I don't know if we found that

idea yet. We're doing a comic book that's being drawn right now that we wrote

with a big idea that's about aliens.

But that's all I will say. It's gonna be like another year of drawing because

it's a very complex book. But, it's written, and it's

it's in production. And then as far as film

ideas and or TV ideas, I think we just we're still spitballing.

You know, hopefully, hopefully, we have something really interesting. I think

we we had a lot of fun thinking about material in a way

that you have to make it make sense with a big idea. And and I

think would you rather was, like, you know, the the feet in the shallow end,

and this was more of us getting really your whole bodies in there. Yeah. And

I and I think there's more you know, we've talked off and on about

going back to that well, just as as,

our world has progressed. Would You Rather is

still, relevant. And there's there's there's other stories to

tell within that that world. Okay. You

know, did anything happen on set in particular when you guys were working on the

Mandela effect? Did to the, like, to the actors

or you guys have any Mandela effect on the set?

Was there a Mandela effect curse?

We lost any 3, 3 children.

Right. We didn't say the act the actress that plays the daughter, she was the

4th one. Yeah.

The, I don't I don't have any big moment. Do you? Or Synchronicities.

Those are good too. I'll just say we we we shot most

we shot a lot of the sitting on the set of the Mandela effect as

we talked to him right now. Correct. The we shot it in my

house. Oh, wow. And, and so so

watching it as a result of that has been,

it's it's it's surreal to watch it in the film, to see this other

family in place of yours. And, you know, a little bit of your

family in in different places. Remember them.

Yeah. Yeah. So that that's sort of an

ongoing Mandela effect every time I watch it. I'm like, oh, god. This is kinda

spooky. Alright. Cool. Yeah. Alright. Well, we

look forward to hearing about the next project, guys. Good luck with the film.

I hope I hope it changes the world or at the very least,

gets people to think about some of these, topics and also, gets

moved. You know? I think people I think people will be moved by the story,

and hopefully they'll get moved to, you know, think about some of these kind of

issues. So if you guys are interested in checking out links to the Mandela

effect, we're gonna have those on, othersidepodcast.com276.

So othersidepodcast.com/276 In case you're listening

in your car and you can't wait to get home and watch the movie, just

go there, and there'll be a link, to the different places where you can find

it, video on demand. And thank you very much for joining us. Thank you so

much. This is fun. Mike, Allison. Thank you. Thank you.

For the song this week, we were inspired by the ideas of the Mandela effect

to sing about pain that shouldn't be there, but it is. In the

movie, people are wondering how you can remember something that never happened.

In phantom limb phenomena, people who have a leg or arm

amputated still feel pain from the limb that's no longer there.

While there's a scientific explanation for it, neurons in the brain that would

usually be sensing those areas are getting stimulated accidentally by the

neurons next to them. It's the idea that something

impossible is hurting you. Here's our song inspired

by the Mandela effect, Phantom Limb.

Oh, man. Since you've been gone away,

nothing feels the same.

Thank you for listening to today's episode. You can find us

online at othersidepodcast.com. Until next

Mike, see you on the other side. The

Mandela effect. What a fascinating topic and such a great

subject to make a movie about. Hi, this is Wendy,

and I just want to thank Mike and Allison, as well as our guests, Stefan

and David, for the stimulating conversation today. And if you're

interested in learning more about the Mandela effect, you might want to look

back at an earlier episode we did on that topic. And that was

episode 198 titled the Mandela effect,

false memories or parallel universes. You can

find that at othersidepodcast.com/198.

We would love to hear any stories you might have about having a memory that

didn't quite match reality. So if you have something to share like that,

please send it to us either on Twitter at otherside

talk or just email it to us at show at otherside podcast dot

com. We love hearing from you. Finally, I'd like to express our

gratitude to the Patreon members who kindly, generously,

boldly, bravely contribute to our cause of paranormal

education and research here at CU on the Other Side. Our

Patreon member Ned gets a bonus Hey Hey because

he's pledging at an executive producer level. And Ned, thank you so

much for that. If you would like to join our community, there are a

variety of levels, something for everyone, and you

can find out all the information on that at othersidepodcast.com/donate.

Thank you for listening, and I hope you have an absolutely

awesome week.

George. George. Come on, George.

Clark. Clark. Clark. George George said to give

me give you a call.