Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 35 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

P-Soupers, this week the tables are turned, producer Emma has interviewed me in a table turning special.

You'll get to hear a bit more about my career history and when I first discovered ACT. We also chat about

• how I present ACT in a compelling way to a workplace audience,
• the evidence base for ACT,
• the impact ACT has had in my own life,
• how I use the ACT in the workplace training protocol I developed with Dr Paul Flaxman at City, University of London, as the foundation for a wide variety of organisational requirements,
• and hamster wheels!

You can find all the details of my ACT in the Workplace Train the Trainer Program over on our partner's website, Contextual Consulting.

The discount code for 20% off the Program is PSOUP20

People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.

There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.

• ACT in the workplace - Contextual Consulting
• Contextual Consulting - Acceptance & Commitment Therapy Specialists
• A paper on the Happy Productive Worker

Read about our Chisi Awards from #365daysofcompassion for Best Podcast

Leave a review as a WhatsApp voicenote on +0034696636487

Ross' new website

Our Podcast Website on CAPTIVATE

Ross on Twitter

People Soup on Instagram which also features plenty of Ross' photos of the Andalusian life

People Soup Page on Facebook

And you can connect with Ross on LinkedIn

PART ONE

[00:00:06] Producer Emma: P Supers, this is so exciting! It's gonna be a bit of a different episode today. The tables are turned, and I'm gonna be interviewing Ross. I'm going to interview him about his specialism, act in the workplace, and in particular his Train the Trainer program next year, which is a collaboration between Ross and Dr.

[00:00:41] As a producer of the PeopleSoup podcast, I usually work from behind the scenes, but as I mentioned, today we're trying something a little different.

[00:01:13] Now let's just head back to Emma as she sets the scene for this table turning episode.

[00:01:26] Ross: Oh, oh, of course. Yeah, that's exciting.

[00:02:18] The following year, Ross returned to deliver a comprehensive Act in the Workplace training, including modules on leadership development and organizational flexibility. Participant feedback for these sessions was exceptionally positive, highlighting Ross's training skills and the value of the Act in the Workplace package he developed.

[00:03:08] Ross: Wow. They are very kind words on the... Relationship that is ongoing, that me and Paul have had with Joe. And it's fabulous to read Joe's review and, uh, the impact we've had. So I'm really grateful for that.

[00:03:36] And before we continue, A couple of breaking news items. Firstly, hold the front page, there's a discount code for the Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer program. And you'll hear that discount code in the middle of this and next week's episode.

[00:04:01] All you need to do is fill in a very brief form via the link in the show notes for this episode and the competition closes at midnight central European time on 20th of December 2023 and the winner will be chosen at random and notified the next day the 21st of December.

[00:04:20] SECTION REMOVED

[00:04:37] SPOONS Ready to dive in

[00:04:40] Ross: Let's dive in, Emma. Yeah.

[00:04:49] Ross: Brilliant question Emma, thank you. So yeah, ACT is Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, or Acceptance and Commitment Training, some people call it. Don't be alarmed by that therapy word folks, because what we've done at City University of London over the last 20 years, particularly Paul, is to research the application of ACT in the workplace.

[00:05:28] It can help us reduce rumination outside of work, consider what's important and recognize the internal barriers to us moving forward with purpose.

[00:05:39] Ross: And Emma, ACT is made up of six different processes, which all contribute to the development of psychological flexibility. But for the workplace, we break them down into three skills. Noticing, Active and Open.

[00:06:04] Ross: Yes, of course, I'd love to. So, I'm going to start with the noticing skill. The skill of noticing. How much of our lives do we spend on autopilot? And what I mean by autopilot is not noticing what's going on around us. Our body is somewhere, but our mind is off somewhere else.

[00:06:55] So that's a little bit about the skill of noticing. Let me talk about active. Active is about really pausing and thinking about what matters to us in different areas of life.

[00:07:32] And then the final skill is Open. That's about it. relating skillfully to our inner world. Now that might sound a bit woo woo, but what I mean is that our mind is producing loads of thoughts, emotions, memories, sensations, urges all the time. And sometimes that stuff's helpful, and sometimes, quite a lot of the time in fact, it's unhelpful.

[00:08:18] Producer Emma: Thank you so much, Ross, for expanding on those three skills. And presumably those three skills all work in conjunction with one another to enhance psychological well being and flexibility in the workplace. And that skill of noticing in particular really resonates with the practice of mindfulness. And we'll delve into a taster of some of the notice, active, and open techniques a bit later on in the episode, but firstly Ross, I'm intrigued. How did you come across ACT?

[00:09:01] I was in senior leadership roles in the Home Office and also the Department for Business. And my last job in the Department for Business was I was Head of Leadership Assessment. So I was working on developing rigorous procedures to identify the leaders of the future. And about that time, eight or nine years ago, I jumped ship. because I had this itch I wanted to scratch, I thought I could make more of an impact in the workplace, with some additional study behind me. So I did an MSc in Organizational Psychology, on top of an MSc in Human Resource Management that I'd done some years earlier.

[00:09:44] When I came across ACT

[00:09:56] And I was like, OMG. This just [00:10:00] immediately resonated with me. This idea that we can choose values that have resonance and meaning for us and we can relate to that unhelpful stuff in our minds in a different way, as well as bringing our skills to notice the present moment.

[00:10:45] DISCOUNT CODE

[00:11:02] Producer Emma: Ross. It's brilliant to hear a bit of background. And it's funny, as you were mentioning how you had your long career in HR and then you jumped ship, it was almost like you were practicing that active skill before you even knew what ACT was. I'm sure that was a contributing factor to, why ACT resonated with you so much.

[00:11:44] And I guess some of the other ways it's impacted in my life is with anxiety. I'm someone who's been anxious their whole life. It's helped me realize that the stuff that my mind produces is actually my mind doing exactly what it's designed to do, [00:12:00] keeping me safe. And it was one of those ah ha moments, how we can use those personal values as a guide for our behavior. They're like a beacon for how we want to be. And it really has transformed my life in many different ways. I grew up in the northeast of England near Newcastle. And I knew I was different. But for me there were no credible gay role models in public life.

[00:12:45] It really brings that to life for me and helps me think about, in a very small way, how I'm role modelling for other people in the world of work.

[00:13:07] And that's a hamster wheel. And it's that hamster going around in that wheel, and that's a lot of us.

[00:13:31] And so Ross, could you tell me a bit more about the evidence base for ACT?

[00:13:59] Usually that would [00:14:00] take the form of depression, anxiety, and stress. we interrupt this broadcast again because what I didn't say is that after a four session act program over four consecutive weeks, the measures on the general health questionnaire had all reduced to well below the threshold for psychological distress. And to be honest, Emma, that's what gets me up in the morning. can be shared and cultivated in others. And remember, if we can increase psychological well being, that's the most reliable predictor of performance, attendance, and turnover.

[00:14:51] How could I live with more intention and make more choices that really align with what matters to me? And the other part, Emma, that I love, it's a privilege to share these skills with adults in the workplace, whether it's in group settings or in one to one coaching.

[00:15:12] Producer Emma: That is a great point Ross, and that almost links back to that 40 percent stat that you, you gave us. That's, that's shocking, but it's, it's great that ACT could have such a positive impact on people in the workplace. And thank you for articulating some of that hamster wheel analogy for me. I think you did it a lot better than I

[00:15:36] Producer Emma: brilliant points there, Ross.

[00:15:37] Producer Emma: And so who do you use ACT with?

[00:16:02] I've worked with a lot of teachers. I've also worked with hedge fund managers, global banking. Global Fast Moving Consumer Goods and the main ballet companies in the UK. So I work with professional ballet dancers, which is such a privilege and an insight to get a glimpse into their world.

[00:16:40] There are different external factors, but sometimes some of the things that are going on inside their heads have similar themes there. And, this training protocol that me and Paul Flaxman developed, which is the basis of this Train the Trainer program, I use it as a base for leadership development.

[00:17:22] Producer Emma: Wow. So ACT is very transferable then. So not only across It's a wide range of industries,

[00:17:41] Ross: Yeah, of course, Emma. And just thinking about combining ACT with other research. One thing that springs to mind that's been on my mind a lot over the last two or three years is combining ACT to help people think how they're going to disconnect and recharge from work. And that has been very successful with working populations, [00:18:00] combining ACT with the research literature on leisure time recovery. That's probably a whole nother podcast. But yeah, anecdotes, Emma, thanks for asking.

[00:18:17] That's it, PSupers. Part 1 of my chat with Emma in the bag. I'd like to thank Emma for her curiosity and cracking interview style. There'll be more of that next week with a surprise question too. Don't forget the discount code, PSup20, and the prize draw. You've gotta be in it to win it. We'd love your help in reaching more people with this behavioral science, so..

[00:18:50] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:19:25] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:19:43] Hopefully it's not going to be too much of a pain in the ass for you.