Shownotes
Kimberly Rich went from surviving to thriving after the sudden death of her mother by turning her loss into her purpose. This is her story, and she is RESILIENT A.F.
Buy the books: https://theglobalresilienceproject.com/books/
About the Guest:
Kimberly Rich received her doctoral degree from Creighton University with a research focus in grief and bereavement. Her journey with grief started following the sudden loss of her mother in 2021. It was then that she first recognized the power of relationship in grief, and also realized the ways that we can fail to support one another as end of life approaches, as well as in times of grief. In the coming months she accepted that her mission would be to improve how we approach death, dying and supporting those who are grieving. She now serves as a death doula, end of life coordinator, and grief educator. She has been published multiple times and has a podcast: The Only Guarantee. Kimberly is based in the suburbs of Chicago, IL but regularly travels to support those in need. You can learn more about her work on Instagram @tomorrowmourningllc or on her website at www.tomorrowmourningllc.com.
⚠️ Content Note: Some episodes may contain themes that could be distressing. Please take care of yourself while listening, and don’t hesitate to seek support from a mental health professional if needed.
About the Hosts:
Blair Kaplan Venables is a British Columbia-based grief and resilience expert and coach, motivational speaker and the Founder of The Global Resilience Project. Her expertise has been featured on media platforms like Forbes, TEDx, CBC Radio, Entrepreneur, and Thrive Global. She is named the Top Grief and Resilience Expert of the Year 2024 by IAOTP. USA Today listed Blair as one of the top 10 conscious female leaders to watch and she empowers others to be resilient from stages around the world. 'MyStory,’ which is a television show available on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV+ and Google Play, showcases Blair's life story. She is the host of the Radical Resilience podcast and specializes in helping people strengthen their resilience muscle using scientifically proven methods and guides grieving high performers with her Navigating Grief Framework. The Global Resilience Project’s award-winning book series are international bestsellers, and her fourth book, RESILIENT A.F.: Stories of Resilience Vol 2, will be published in January 2025. In her free time, you can find Blair writing, in nature, travelling the world and helping people to strengthen their resilience muscles.
Links:
https://theglobalresilienceproject.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/blairdkaplan
https://www.facebook.com/blair.kaplan
https://www.facebook.com/BlairKaplanCommunications
https://www.instagram.com/globalresiliencecommunity
https://www.instagram.com/blairfromblairland/
https://www.facebook.com/globalresiliencecommunity
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-global-resilience-project
Alana Kaplan is a compassionate mental health professional based in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. She works in the mental health field, and is a co-host of the Resilient A.F. podcast. Fueled by advocacy, Alana is known for standing up and speaking out for others. Passionate about de-stigmatizing and normalizing mental health, Alana brings her experience to The Global Resilience Project’s team, navigating the role one’s mental health plays in telling their story.
Engaging in self-care and growth keeps her going, and her love for reading, travel, and personal relationships helps foster that. When she’s not working, Alana can often be found on walks, working on a crossword puzzle, or playing with any animal she sees.
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Transcripts
Once her lungs and her kidneys were not working, the pressure that that was putting
Speaker:on her heart was just enormous. And she was not able to live long
Speaker:enough to receive that transplant and we lost
Speaker:her. And so for me,
Speaker:I can only speak for me, it was unexpected. Although
Speaker:she was ill, we had a path towards recovery. It was just a matter of
Speaker:time. Right. In hindsight,
Speaker:I have regrets in thinking that. Right. Because I did not treat
Speaker:it as a opportunity
Speaker:to ask questions I wish I had asked or say things
Speaker:I wish I had said or, you know, I just treated this
Speaker:as we're going to get through this. We're going to get through this. And
Speaker:that's hard afterwards, I think the hardest part of it is
Speaker:feeling like I should have recognized the gravity
Speaker:of the situation and. And I didn't.
Speaker:Welcome back to another episode of Resilient AF with Blair and Alana.
Speaker:But you'll notice Alana is not in the chair with me. It is Dr.
Speaker:Kimberly Rich. That's the only time I'm going to use Dr. Today because she is
Speaker:humble. Thank you. So Kim received
Speaker:her doctoral degree from Creighton University with a research focus
Speaker:in grief and bereavement. Her journey with grief started following
Speaker:the sudden loss of her mother in 2021. It was then that she
Speaker:first recognized the power of relationship and grief and also the
Speaker:ways that we can fail to support one another as end of life
Speaker:approaches as well as in times of grief. In the coming months,
Speaker:she accepted that her mission would be to improve how we approach death,
Speaker:dying and supporting those who are grieving. She now serves as a death
Speaker:doula, end of life coordinator and grief educator.
Speaker:She's been published in multiple. She's been published multiple times and has a
Speaker:podcast, the Only Guarantee. Kimberly is based out of the suburbs of
Speaker:Chicago, Illinois, but regularly travels to support those in
Speaker:needs. You can learn more about her, her websites tomorrow mourning,
Speaker:LLC.com and same with her Instagram handle. And it's all going to be in
Speaker:the show notes below. And I am so honored to meet you. Well, I
Speaker:mean I've met you, but to have you here and for you to meet everyone
Speaker:else listening. So welcome to the show, Kimberly. I'm happy
Speaker:to be here with you and get to know you a little bit better. I
Speaker:hope too as we talk. So happy to be here.
Speaker:Before we begin, what's your mom's name? My mom's name was Donna.
Speaker:Is Donna. Yes. Donna. What's like
Speaker:D O N N A? Yep, it's our accent. You have the
Speaker:Chicago accent and I have Canadian accent. My husband is Canadian,
Speaker:and so it's so fam. It's so funny because when he is with
Speaker:his family, he'll slip into it a little bit. He also
Speaker:totally recognizes it. Like, the announcer at our son's high
Speaker:school, like, for weeks. My husband was like, he's Canadian.
Speaker:He's. And then he finally asked him. He was like, are you Canadian? He was
Speaker:like, yep. And there is. Yeah, there's something slightly different. I
Speaker:don't notice it as much, but. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. Like, sometimes people
Speaker:flat out are like, whoa, you are so Canadian. People are like, I have no
Speaker:idea. What is it? Yeah, what is it that gives me
Speaker:away? So, Donna, tell me. Tell me. So Donna died.
Speaker:What's the date of her death? April 2nd of
Speaker:2021. April 2nd. It was actually her. It
Speaker:was her dad's birth. He was not alive anymore, but it was on his
Speaker:dad's birth, her dad's birthday. Wow. Which I thought was kind of
Speaker:a neat little connection. I don't know that it's like. I don't know if it's
Speaker:supposed to be sad or comforting, but there was something about it that felt
Speaker:kind of. I don't know, comforting to me.
Speaker:Yes. Poetic. Like, it just felt if there was. There was
Speaker:zero good to be found in the situation. But, you know, if you
Speaker:were searching for something to give you comfort. I like numbers and
Speaker:dates and some of that fun, you know, that stuff
Speaker:can be a little bit fun. So I want to know all about
Speaker:Donna. Tell me about Donna. I will tell you about her.
Speaker:You know, in. I think, as
Speaker:we all do in grief. Right. Most of what I
Speaker:remember is perfection. There are times the
Speaker:imperfect creeps back, and it actually makes me smile because it's.
Speaker:It's also comforting to remember that she was a human. Right. So
Speaker:when. When people die, especially those people that we're grieving
Speaker:and that we miss, we just are so aware of everything we
Speaker:miss. And that's probably most of what I'll share with you today. But I think
Speaker:it's also important just to kind of state that
Speaker:she was imperfect, too. Just like I'm imperfect. And, you know, my kids will
Speaker:remember my. My flaws and. And hopefully my strengths when.
Speaker:When I am gone. And. And.
Speaker:And so she. She was a
Speaker:great mother. And again, we had our disagreements about things,
Speaker:but usually about things that as you age, wisdom, you understand.
Speaker:Right. Things like curfews or. I actually
Speaker:wrote in. In my Skin Deep story, like, the first time
Speaker:I didn't drink at alcohol. I rarely drink alcohol
Speaker:now, but I didn't drink until years after my
Speaker:friends, like, my friends were drinking in high school. I didn't. I would leave
Speaker:parties. I was so concerned. We used to. I ran track in cross country. We
Speaker:used to have to sign a code of conduct, which is just a stupid, ridiculous
Speaker:thing. But it was like, if you do anything naughty, you're off the team. And
Speaker:to me, that was like a binding cond. And I was so
Speaker:worried. And so it was the end of my freshman year of college. I
Speaker:had a beer and I told my mom, and she just,
Speaker:like, started crying because she was just so sad that, you
Speaker:know, I had had a beer and. And, you
Speaker:know, she was just a good person who
Speaker:again, like, wanted us to be good people and to follow the
Speaker:rules and to help others. And she was a teacher. She
Speaker:was wonderful with children. She was wonderful with us. She.
Speaker:Us on our. Our parents, both of them took us on
Speaker:vacations. We traveled. We. Which. Which I didn't
Speaker:recognize was unique again until I got older. And. And you
Speaker:realize that not everybody does that, but we. And we drove
Speaker:mostly the first time we flew anywhere was. Was to Hawaii when I
Speaker:was in high school. They
Speaker:school education was important to her, of course, as a teacher and
Speaker:became important to me. She had a great sense of humor.
Speaker:She was happy. She enjoyed being with us, watching TV
Speaker:with us, taking us out to eat, taking us to the bookstore,
Speaker:going to libraries, going to museums, going to the. The public
Speaker:pool. I don't know what it's like in Canada, but
Speaker:here in the suburbs of Chicago, like, every town has a public pool
Speaker:you'd buy the pass for in the summer, and we'd go there and she'd
Speaker:let us get, you know, ice cream. And when I was in college,
Speaker:I'm going to age myself. I don't know, you know, the
Speaker:average age of your listeners, but when I went to college, it was before you
Speaker:had cell phones and texting. It was at the very beginning
Speaker:of email. But you used to have to pay by the
Speaker:minute for long distance, which I know is
Speaker:just such a foreign concept now. But for whatever reason, Sundays were half
Speaker:price. So, like, we'd call on Sundays because it was half price
Speaker:and you would get twice as much time to talk. And I would always look
Speaker:forward to. I went to school at Arizona State, and she
Speaker:was outside of Illinois or outside of Chicago and Illinois.
Speaker:So, you know, I would so look forward to calling
Speaker:her on Sundays and having that time to fill her in. And I would
Speaker:always feel a little homesick after talking to her just missing
Speaker:out on the meals she was cooking at home, what she
Speaker:was doing with. I was the oldest, so what she was doing with my sisters,
Speaker:we would send letters back and forth. And then as an
Speaker:adult, I had children very young. I
Speaker:got married a year after I graduated college. I
Speaker:had my first child when I was 23,
Speaker:which is absurd now my oldest is 22.
Speaker:And the thought of him being in charge of another
Speaker:human is just nauseating. And I think he would agree.
Speaker:I won't be embarrassed if he hears this podcast. And
Speaker:I wonder, and she's gone now, so I can't ask, but I sometimes wonder now
Speaker:if she thought that about. Was she just. When I was like, I'm pregnant, was
Speaker:she like, what the hell? But she was so
Speaker:good about calming me as a parent and
Speaker:giving advice. Right. And. And even as my kids were aging and
Speaker:you think you're doing it wrong because they're upset
Speaker:or something didn't go right. She was really good about sharing those stories
Speaker:about the times she struggled with that also
Speaker:and was always supportive of my children
Speaker:and my marriage and my career choices. And
Speaker:there was very little that she didn't
Speaker:allow me to try and cheer me on
Speaker:along the way, which was awesome. I knew I was loved. And I
Speaker:know now as an adult that even that in itself was a
Speaker:gift. You know, I know not everyone has felt that from their mother. And I
Speaker:always knew how much she cared about me. I love
Speaker:that. Donna sounds amazing. She was.
Speaker:Talk us through what was going on leading up to
Speaker:April 2nd. Sure. So
Speaker:I'm going to try to make an 18 year story very short.
Speaker:You know, one of the things I struggle with when you talk about grief or
Speaker:share your grief stories, and I'm sure you've heard this from other, from other people
Speaker:you've talked to, is that question of
Speaker:did you expect them to die? Right. People will say that. Was this expected?
Speaker:And I think for people asking that question,
Speaker:if you say yes, there's. I think they ask because there's some relief in that.
Speaker:Right? Oh, so you knew this was coming, right? You had time to prepare, you
Speaker:had time to say goodbye. I think that's kind of
Speaker:a bullshit question. I think it's kind of stupid, right? But
Speaker:I mean, the, the way I handle it now, I use a lot of humor,
Speaker:but when people ask, I'm like, well, did I expect her to ever did?
Speaker:Right. Like, I'm going to die too. So people should expect me to die. Like
Speaker:there's no one who avoids it. So we should all expect to Die.
Speaker:But she had been diagnosed with lymphoma in
Speaker:2003. She fought that. It
Speaker:was horrific.
Speaker:And went into remission in
Speaker:2005. She had a reoccurrence, fought that, but
Speaker:she had a transplant at that time. I believe it was a
Speaker:bone marrow transplant. I should have written this down because I always get it
Speaker:and stem cell confused. But I believe it was a bone marrow transplant,
Speaker:survived and was
Speaker:relatively symptom free then from probably
Speaker:2006 until about 2020.
Speaker:And then in 2020, she started with a cough and
Speaker:she couldn't get rid of the cough and were happening.
Speaker:And very long story short, her lungs were
Speaker:damaged. She had what was called interstellar lung
Speaker:disease is what she was diagnosed with. And it
Speaker:was damage that was happening to her lungs because they believed her
Speaker:body was rejecting that transplant from years and years and
Speaker:years ago. And it was.
Speaker:What it was doing was stiffening her lungs. So the way a
Speaker:doctor explained it once to me was that normal lungs are like
Speaker:a birthday party balloon where you can blow it up and the air will come
Speaker:out. And you blow it up and the air comes out. But then lungs
Speaker:that become more damaged and stiff are more like car tires.
Speaker:So even when you're putting air in them, you don't see car tires
Speaker:expand really, or deflate unless you have a
Speaker:completely flat tire. And so she was starting to have a
Speaker:very hard time breathing, was on oxygen. She was very
Speaker:young. She was in her early 60s and
Speaker:was going to need a double lung transplant. And they
Speaker:actually went back and forth on that. They were like, we might be able to
Speaker:do one long. We could do two kind of depending upon the
Speaker:donor situation. We just want to get something right. So if we have
Speaker:a donor who only has one good lung, we'll do that. If they
Speaker:have two, we'll do that. And so they kind of went back and forth on
Speaker:it. And there is an
Speaker:enormous process you have to go through to be on the transplant list.
Speaker:And that's a good thing. Mostly out of.
Speaker:What do they call it? They call it out of, like, respect for the donor
Speaker:and the donor's family. They want to make sure that the organs that are being
Speaker:donated are going to a healthy recipient and
Speaker:someone who's going to take care of them. Which I think if I was donating
Speaker:my organs, I'd really appreciate that. So there's a
Speaker:whole process, a training process, things you have to agree to
Speaker:before you get listed. She did all of that. She
Speaker:was listed in February of 21. And one of the
Speaker:things that was Shared with us was that her wait time,
Speaker:the average wait time is like 30 to 60 or
Speaker:90 days, but that it tends to be a little shorter in the spring.
Speaker:This is such a ridiculous, like, jeopardy. Fun fact. But it tends to be
Speaker:a little shorter in the spring because the majority of organ
Speaker:donors are people who
Speaker:have been in a motorcycle accident, and motorcycle
Speaker:riding tends to increase in the spring. Wow. So
Speaker:such a weird side story that the transplant team shared with
Speaker:us, but something that we were like. So hopefully we're looking
Speaker:at 30 to 60 days here. Like, we're going to be in the shorter range
Speaker:of things. And
Speaker:not that we were hoping for anyone. It's such a weird
Speaker:ethical thing to be involved in. Right.
Speaker:Because in order to save her life, you know, it costs someone
Speaker:else a life. And. And that is a separate podcast
Speaker:episode. But something else to kind of talk through is the
Speaker:just how that kind of messes with your emotions and your feelings. Also, when you're
Speaker:hoping for this transplant and hoping for her to survive, it's a little
Speaker:different than, like, a kidney transplant where you can have a living donor. So
Speaker:there is also some weird emotions with that. But we were hopeful
Speaker:that quickly she would be in a position to receive that lung.
Speaker:While she was waiting. On March 3 of 21, she
Speaker:came down with a fever. She
Speaker:texted our family group text. And
Speaker:it's funny, she just said, I don't want anybody to freak out, right? Because we
Speaker:were all kind of nervous about her at that point. But
Speaker:as I. As I mentioned, when I first started talking, I did not expect her
Speaker:to die. So was it expected? No. That might have been naive
Speaker:of me, but I did not. And
Speaker:I don't want anybody to freak out, but I've got a fever. They want me
Speaker:to go to the hospital. Well, this was the height of COVID right?
Speaker:And she had been told multiple times if she got
Speaker:Covid, she probably would not survive. And although she
Speaker:had been really living in isolation, her and my dad both
Speaker:were just in total lockdown. We were
Speaker:nervous. And I remember thinking, as long
Speaker:as it's not Covid, right? As long as it's not Covid. And it was
Speaker:not. It was just some random virus.
Speaker:It's actually a virus that you and I. I don't remember the name of
Speaker:it, but you and I probably come in contact with all the time. But because
Speaker:we have healthy immune systems, it doesn't even impact us. But her
Speaker:immune system was wonky. She went into the hospital
Speaker:March 3, and just slowly
Speaker:her body started shutting down. Like, her body couldn't handle
Speaker:the virus. And so she was
Speaker:awake at first. After a while of being
Speaker:in the hospital and things getting harder and harder, she was eventually
Speaker:intubated, her kidneys shut down,
Speaker:and then, you know, her heart. And the way the doctors explained it
Speaker:is you have your three main organs are your lungs, your
Speaker:kidneys, and your heart. And every time one of those
Speaker:stops working, it puts more pressure on the others.
Speaker:Once her lungs and her kidneys were not working, the pressure that that was putting
Speaker:on her heart was just enormous. And she was not able to live
Speaker:long enough to receive that transplant. And we lost
Speaker:her. And so for me,
Speaker:I can only speak for me, it was unexpected. Although
Speaker:she was ill, we had a path towards recovery. It was just a matter of
Speaker:time. Right. In
Speaker:hindsight, I have regrets in thinking that. Right.
Speaker:Because I did not treat it as a
Speaker:opportunity to ask questions I wish I had asked
Speaker:or say things I wish I had said or, you know, I just
Speaker:treated this as, we're going to get through this. We're going to get through
Speaker:this. And that's hard. Afterwards, I think the hardest
Speaker:part of it is feeling like I should have
Speaker:recognized the gravity of the situation
Speaker:and I didn't. Kimberly, thank you for sharing all that. Like,
Speaker:that's quite a harrowing story, and I can't
Speaker:even imagine what that would have been like, having to go through that.
Speaker:And it's what really resonates with me in that is, you know, at
Speaker:the beginning, you're like, you know, like, yes, I know my mom will die. Like,
Speaker:I will die. We're all gonna die. But then just now you're saying, like, it
Speaker:was unexpected. Yeah, it's really interesting. So
Speaker:our Mom, Sharon, died February
Speaker:23, 2021. Oh,
Speaker:gosh. Right next to each other. So she learned she
Speaker:had cancer and died three weeks later.
Speaker:And that's the older story also. Yeah. So, but
Speaker:I. But it's interesting because, like, I'm the older daughter and I have a different
Speaker:relationship with my mom than my sister, who was like, like, almost codependent. Well,
Speaker:she was codependent. Like, she'll admit that. And when my mom was
Speaker:sick, I actually, like, live in a different part of Canada than her. She
Speaker:went into the hospital and was like, blair, I need help, like, with the cat.
Speaker:I'm like, okay, I'll buy a one way ticket, no problem. It wasn't, oh,
Speaker:you're terminal. And when I. When I got home, they let her out of the
Speaker:hospital and she didn't look okay at all. And I was like this,
Speaker:like, selfishly I'm glad they let her out, but they shouldn't have. But, like,
Speaker:she was gray and, like, looked like she was going. Like, she
Speaker:looked like she was dying. And then a couple days later, we took her back
Speaker:to the hospital because she was in so much pain. And they said, you're covered
Speaker:in tumors. You have two weeks left to live. And she died three days later.
Speaker:And it's interesting because when that was happening,
Speaker:I was like, oh, she's. She's going to die. Where? My sister was in such
Speaker:denial that, like, it just wouldn't. She couldn't process it.
Speaker:But then we started talking, and she's like, this was my worst nightmare. I'm like,
Speaker:what was your worst nightmare? She's like, mom dying. I'm like, that's crazy, because in
Speaker:my head, not once did I think about when mom dies. When mom dies. Because
Speaker:my grandma lived to be 91, and her diet was chicken fingers and
Speaker:Chinese food, and she smoked like a chimney and, like, was
Speaker:not a beacon of health. Like, she would walk from her house to the bus
Speaker:around the mall and gambled. And, like, so in my head, I was like,
Speaker:okay, well, mom's not to going. Gonna die till she's in her 90s. Also, we
Speaker:don't have to worry about this today, right? So crazy, because, like, so I've never
Speaker:once thought, oh, my God, my big fear is mom dying. And then when I
Speaker:saw mom sick, I was like, she's gonna die. Where? My sister's biggest fear was
Speaker:mom dying. And then it was happening, and she was in this denial. And it's
Speaker:just so interesting how that happens. The brain is
Speaker:fascinating, isn't it? It is. It's fascinating. And I think with you, like,
Speaker:I mean, you. You said you have some regrets, like, not treating it
Speaker:as if it was, like, what were some of the questions you wish you would
Speaker:have asked her? Well, and that's
Speaker:what's fascinating. Or fabulous. I'll say. Fabulous
Speaker:is the first two to three weeks
Speaker:she was in the hospital, she was awake. She was not intubated yet, right? And
Speaker:we would go. And two people could visit her per day. There were all these
Speaker:ridiculous rules because of COVID right? So it was two visitors a
Speaker:day, and that's it. And so we would take
Speaker:turns, and we'd rotate and we would go,
Speaker:though. And so if two people. Let's say you and I are both visiting today,
Speaker:right? And Blair, you go in the morning, and I go in the afternoon. You
Speaker:go in the morning, and of course, you're like, give me the update. What's going
Speaker:on? What are doctors saying? What's. Are you better? You know, how's the medicine? Are
Speaker:you still nauseous? Are you. And then you talk to her for an hour.
Speaker:You give her an update on the kids, whatever. You leave, I go
Speaker:in, I start the same shit, right? I'm like, how are you feeling? What's the
Speaker:update? What medicine? And. And so I went home from one visit.
Speaker:I left and came home, and I have four children, and I. And
Speaker:they're. They're adults. You know, children is. Is probably
Speaker:the not right. It's not the right legal term for them anymore, but I birthed
Speaker:them, so I'm going to call them that forever. And I remember
Speaker:sitting at dinner with them and being like, guys, like, today
Speaker:I felt really bad because I feel like Grandma's
Speaker:trapped in this room, right? And all she gets is this
Speaker:rotating group of visitors who are like, what's wrong
Speaker:today? How do you feel? What medicine are you taking? How many times have you
Speaker:thrown up? Did you poop? What's like just stupid stuff.
Speaker:And. And that's an exaggeration, right? Did we also
Speaker:share some fun stories? I played. We played Yahtzee one day. There's,
Speaker:you know, other little fun things in there. But I was
Speaker:like, when I go back to visit Grandma, and I think it was like, in
Speaker:two days, I was going back. When I go back, I don't want to
Speaker:do that to her, right? So let's think of a list of questions.
Speaker:Let's come up with a list of questions for Grandma and I.
Speaker:I have it still in my phone. I opened the notes in my phone. We're
Speaker:all eating dinner, and people are just shouting out questions, right?
Speaker:My son said, who was grandma's
Speaker:best friend? Yeah. And then my daughter added, who was
Speaker:her first best friend? And then
Speaker:one of the other kids was like, who was her best best friend? So we
Speaker:have, like, three questions on best friends, right? It was like, who is your
Speaker:first. Who was your best best friend? Who's your current best friend?
Speaker:You know, we started writing questions about her
Speaker:marriage and meeting my dad and about her career and
Speaker:about raising children and. And we were putting
Speaker:funny ones in there, too, I think. I put in, like, who is your favorite
Speaker:child and who. You know, things that she would actually probably never
Speaker:answer. She wouldn't want to commit to that. But I wanted to go in,
Speaker:and I was like, I'm just going to start interviewing her and learning more about
Speaker:her. Then
Speaker:she was intubated, and I never got to talk to her again, I never asked
Speaker:her a single question. So
Speaker:those questions all sit in my phone. And
Speaker:one of the things I'm actually talking about with
Speaker:a publisher right now is actually going through the process of
Speaker:interviewing people in her life to try to find the answers
Speaker:to those questions through other people, which,
Speaker:of course, is someone else's perception of what she would answer. Right.
Speaker:We don't know that those would be her answers. I often say to
Speaker:people, I'm the only one who speaks for me. Right. Because anyone else
Speaker:who speaks for me is making assumptions about how I would answer.
Speaker:But it would also give. Provide some
Speaker:closure to something that. To a door that still is wide
Speaker:open. Right. And how fun would it be to talk to her siblings and her
Speaker:friends and her co workers and her, you know, just
Speaker:everybody and say, do you know the answers to any of these?
Speaker:I love that. I was just gonna say, you should put the questions up on
Speaker:Facebook and, like, kind of get it out there. You're on it. You're 18
Speaker:steps ahead of me. And I love that you did that.
Speaker:You know, when. When our mom, like, our mom turned really fast, I actually had
Speaker:people under. I made a Facebook post, and I had people under the Facebook post.
Speaker:I'm like, share your favorite memories. Oh, yeah. Share your
Speaker:favorite memories of, like, you and our mom. But it's interesting
Speaker:because, like, you're right with the questions. I
Speaker:mean, like, it's so hard to know what you don't
Speaker:know. And then they're gone. And you want to know something, and you're like,
Speaker:how am I gonna find out? Just, like three weeks ago,
Speaker:I was. You know, you get those little griefy bursts. I don't. I don't cry
Speaker:regularly anymore. I did for a while, but
Speaker:I was at the doctor, and the doctor asked me. We're
Speaker:starting to have that conversation about, could you be. Could this be related to
Speaker:menopause or perimenopause? Right. These symptoms I'm having.
Speaker:And she was like, when did your mom start menopause? And I was
Speaker:like, I don't know. But
Speaker:my belief is she didn't because she started chemotherapy.
Speaker:And I think that kind of pushes that process along.
Speaker:Right. So I don't think she started it naturally, but I'm actually not
Speaker:100% positive. And then they were like, well, do you know about your
Speaker:grandmother? And I was like, well, no, I never talked to my mom about that,
Speaker:but at the same. Your maternal grandmother. But then it occurred to me, my
Speaker:maternal grandmother died when she was 45. My mom
Speaker:was a teenager when her mom died. And so
Speaker:I was like, I doubt. So then I said that out loud. I was like,
Speaker:I doubt she ever did. She died when she was 45. And. And then I
Speaker:just. The tears started right where you're like, here's this thing that your doctor is
Speaker:like, this is important information, which I don't know how much it really
Speaker:matters. Do a couple blood tests and see where my hormones are at. Right. But
Speaker:it matters a little bit. And I will never have the
Speaker:answer to that question. I don't know. And so those are
Speaker:that. One of the things I teach people as a death doula is that
Speaker:what is written remains because all of the things that are
Speaker:stuck in our hearts and in our heads are going to die with us. Right.
Speaker:All of that knowledge, all of that history, whether it's something as boring as
Speaker:when did you start menopause? Or something as thrilling as who
Speaker:was your best. Best friend. If we don't write those things
Speaker:down, at some point we're going to be gone. And that. That legacy is going
Speaker:to be gone with us. But, you know, I wish I knew more.
Speaker:I wish I had been smarter and asked those questions earlier. Yeah,
Speaker:I. You know, my. So
Speaker:my. Both my parents are gone and I'm 40 my grand.
Speaker:Thank you. But my grandma's still alive. She's nine. She'll be 92.
Speaker:And I was just in Winnipeg visiting the family for the Jewish
Speaker:holidays for this new year. Rosh Hashanah and my. Kapoor and Rosh
Speaker:Hashanah. Yeah. So I went to my grandma's house,
Speaker:Babalea, and she's actually in our most. One of our. One of our
Speaker:books, Resilient af. I saw that you posted about that. Yeah.
Speaker:Babalea is legendary. But anyways, she actually has
Speaker:one of these books where she's supposed to fill in. Oh, yes. But she's like,
Speaker:I'm not doing this. Stop it. It's almost
Speaker:like when we're with you. You can't use the Jewish guilt to, like, get her
Speaker:in there to do it. You know, she's just kind of like, I'm old. I
Speaker:don't want to do this. Like. Like, she, I think is just like,
Speaker:meh. So I think my sister, when she's there, maybe asks
Speaker:questions. Like, I try to ask a lot of questions. That's why I put
Speaker:her in our book. I was like, I want to know a story of resilience.
Speaker:And her story is about how her mom, like my namesake. So my great
Speaker:grandma, came over from Russia where we fled the pogroms, you know, the typical.
Speaker:Yes. Trying to murder the Jews. We fled. They
Speaker:destroyed our property. My grandma came over. She worked in, I think a popcorn factory,
Speaker:but. But eventually started a dress shop in the early
Speaker:1900s. Where were they? Winnipeg. Okay.
Speaker:And most of my family is still there. Okay. And anyways, but
Speaker:she worked. She was the breadwinner and she worked all the time. So my
Speaker:grandma was raised mostly by like, I don't know what, I can't remember what she
Speaker:calls them, but like nannies, essentially the community, right? Yeah, nannies. Like,
Speaker:she had straight, essentially, like hired help raising her. And then eventually her
Speaker:grandpa moved in. But she. Her biggest, like, she
Speaker:had this like, resentment of like, my mom was never around when I needed her.
Speaker:So she decided when she was a mom to be a stay at home mom.
Speaker:But it's just interesting. So anyways, I was just like, interested to see what story
Speaker:of resilience. And like, you know, there's a little bit of like, she had one
Speaker:anti Semitic experience, which is amazing because, like, I've had like many.
Speaker:And. Right. You know, I was like, what are some of the stories? And that's
Speaker:like the one that, like, because she's older, it's kind of on repeat, but. But
Speaker:I think capturing stories while you can. So it's like when I'm there, I try
Speaker:to get her to talk and like, I love tell me things and I always
Speaker:learn something new and I. Don'T know, I mean,
Speaker:she'll be gone. This podcast should be a reminder to those listening,
Speaker:like, ask the questions, write down the answers. Like, amen.
Speaker:Kimberly, have you shared this list of questions? No,
Speaker:no, I have my. I mean, my husband. But I mean, you should share them.
Speaker:Because, like, if they're generic, if they're general enough, I should. That's a
Speaker:great idea, like, for other people. And you can. There you go. There's
Speaker:your freebie. You're gonna download a freebie and grow your email list.
Speaker:I'll do it. Yeah. The list of questions. So my background's
Speaker:marketing and offline. I was talking about, do you have a gift for our audience?
Speaker:Do you have a freebie? She's like, no, but I should. I'm like, well, we'll
Speaker:come up with it probably during the show. There it is. And there we go.
Speaker:It's like a checklist of like, find out this. The cool stuff about the people
Speaker:you. Love and it'd be cool for people to add to it. Right. Like, tell
Speaker:me. Because it's not that. It's not an exhaustive list of questions.
Speaker:There's so many questions you can ask. Yes, but just to get to.
Speaker:Instead of sitting with people and just. Well, especially in
Speaker:this the States right now, our Canadian family likes to give us a hard time,
Speaker:but it's so easy to just start these
Speaker:gross conversations about politics and
Speaker:argue and none of it is life giving, right?
Speaker:Like, if this is my last day on earth, that is not how I
Speaker:want to spend it is having those conversations. But it can
Speaker:be so hard to switch to something different. But if you have these
Speaker:handy and you just start asking people like, who is.
Speaker:Who was your first best friend and why do you call them that? Right. And
Speaker:why were they that? And, and to have that, I think would just
Speaker:one change the dynamic of the room totally. Because people
Speaker:love sharing their stories. They love it. That's probably
Speaker:why your podcast is so fantastic, right? Because people get to come on. I
Speaker:love when people ask about my mom because I don't get to talk about her
Speaker:often. I will always listen to you talk. About
Speaker:Donna and in me. If
Speaker:you have not shared much about your father, but your mother, your father, those people
Speaker:who are gone, any opportunities us Grievers have
Speaker:to tell their stories is so healing.
Speaker:But we can only tell the stories we know. Right? And so if you
Speaker:have people in your life who you have the opportunity to get
Speaker:to know better, you should be. And these
Speaker:conversations are so much richer than any sports
Speaker:conversation or politics conversation or anything else in.
Speaker:In my humble opinion that you could be having. So I agree.
Speaker:Okay, so you're amazing. So you, so
Speaker:you. So you like went to school for grief and bereavement,
Speaker:the school of life and the of like school at
Speaker:Creighton University. And now you. So you're a death
Speaker:doula. You are a grief educator, you're an end of
Speaker:life coordinator. You have a podcast, your business
Speaker:tomorrow morning, llc. Like, what is it that like you do
Speaker:a whole bunch of things? Yeah, yeah, I, you
Speaker:know, it's interesting. I was a teacher. So I was a teacher in a school
Speaker:principal elementary school for over 20 years. And
Speaker:my degree was actually in women
Speaker:in leadership roles within the education system. And
Speaker:I changed it when my mom died. So I was three years into my degree
Speaker:work and my research and I dumped it and said,
Speaker:I just don't give a shit about this anymore. Which I think a
Speaker:lot of grievers have that story of something in their lives that they were like,
Speaker:this does not resonate with me anymore. Right. And
Speaker:even teaching didn't. And I loved teaching
Speaker:so much and I was like, this is for the Birds like it doesn't
Speaker:have the same purpose and it's not life giving. And you said
Speaker:something, I think before we started recording. But how, what did you say? You
Speaker:said it's your goal to live. What did you say? Every day. Oh, I
Speaker:want to live a life I don't want to retire from and I don't want
Speaker:to. So like we were just, so we. So for those of you who are
Speaker:like, what are they talking about? But we just checked in, we're recording on a
Speaker:Monday and we were just doing a check in on like, how's your day? And
Speaker:Kim was like telling me how awesome it is and that she loves Mondays. And
Speaker:I was saying, you know what? Like, I've decided to design a life I don't
Speaker:want to retire from. So Mondays, to me, like, they're not something to dread.
Speaker:I usually keep them clear. And I love Mondays. Yeah. And like, why
Speaker:don't we all design a life like that where we don't have to dread. Like,
Speaker:obviously there's things I dread. Like, like, sure, you know, like, like admin.
Speaker:Certain admin things. I'm very, very like, you know, ready. And I'm terrible at
Speaker:QuickBooks because I don't care. But I, Yeah,
Speaker:I mean I'm good at making money and spending money, but coming to manage the
Speaker:books, I have to hire someone. Amen. But like, we don't need
Speaker:to dread Mondays. We don't need to live for the
Speaker:weekends. So I went through this huge career change because I was like, I
Speaker:don't care about this. And someone said to me, well, what do you care about?
Speaker:And it was interesting because I was, was fully grieving at that
Speaker:point. Like the ball filled the jar. Right.
Speaker:And for whatever reason I decided to let my rage
Speaker:out. And, and I'm not, I don't do that very often. I'm a pretty
Speaker:calm person. But I, I just said I care
Speaker:that like when my mom died I realized how
Speaker:awful. I don't know about Canada, I have
Speaker:a decent idea. But like the death and dying industry, there is.
Speaker:There's no education, no one there to help you. We don't know what we're doing,
Speaker:especially at end of life. You know, I mean, when,
Speaker:when my mom was actively dying,
Speaker:there were nurses and doctors in and out of the room constantly.
Speaker:But no one said to us, you're probably going to see this
Speaker:or this is going to happen. So we were left
Speaker:traumatized by some of the things we witnessed. They knew it was going to
Speaker:happen. They knew it. They didn't tell us because it's probably
Speaker:hard to tell us, right? That's baloney. Right? And. And so
Speaker:I. I kind of started just emptying my anger on this
Speaker:person who was like, what do you care about? And I was like, I care
Speaker:that we are safeguarding information that could be
Speaker:saving people from trauma, that could be helping people to understand that
Speaker:the body knows what it's doing, that these things are happening for a reason,
Speaker:that dying isn't painful because it's.
Speaker:Your body knows how to do it. And there were all of
Speaker:these things. No one told us how to plan a funeral or
Speaker:if. Do you have to call the funeral home before you release the
Speaker:body to the funeral home? Do we have to see if they have room? Is
Speaker:there, like, do they fill up? Do they not? Zero education,
Speaker:but here's all the paper. And by the way, we need
Speaker:it within two hours. We need it within 24 hours. We need it.
Speaker:You're like, what the am I supposed to do? Yeah,
Speaker:I've never done this before. I get it. That I was destined for
Speaker:it, that I was destined to lose my parents. The only way to avoid it
Speaker:was to die first, which, you know, isn't what I wanted.
Speaker:Yet no one prepared me for this. So I kind of had this, like,
Speaker:rage moment. No one tells you about grieving, why I
Speaker:can't stop crying, why I have kidney stones,
Speaker:why I. All of it. And I felt like I was
Speaker:overreacting because people lose their moms
Speaker:all the time. Now. I was younger than the average person,
Speaker:but why? Why am I like this? And
Speaker:now I know, Blair, because I've talked to so many people that
Speaker:most people do feel the way I felt, but we don't talk about
Speaker:it. We don't share it. So when you're feeling it, you feel like you're doing
Speaker:it wrong or like you need medication
Speaker:or a hospitalization. Because. Why can't I shake this
Speaker:right? Well, you can, and you don't shake it. It. You don't. But I didn't
Speaker:know that. And because we don't know, like, you're right. Society doesn't
Speaker:talk about all of that stuff. So experts like you.
Speaker:And that was where my passion grew. And I was like, forget this research
Speaker:on women in leadership. I want to research this stuff.
Speaker:And while I was researching it on the side, I also became certified as a
Speaker:death doula. I took separate classes to earn my certification
Speaker:there. And. And now what my
Speaker:goal is is to make death and
Speaker:dying easier for the person who is dying,
Speaker:but also for their family members. I want their family
Speaker:members to understand what's going to happen and what it's going to look like.
Speaker:And I want the people who are dying to
Speaker:see where they have control, right? That is the ultimate loss of
Speaker:control. Because most people that I have worked with
Speaker:are not ready to die. And some have been in their 80s, some
Speaker:been in their 20s. They're not ready.
Speaker:So how do I give them control back where they can have
Speaker:it? Right? And that's in. Do you want to write your own obituary? Do
Speaker:you want to plan your own memorial like it's. We
Speaker:spend hours first talking about how
Speaker:this is shit. You shouldn't be dying
Speaker:and you don't want to die. But now let's talk about where you
Speaker:have control. What do you want that room to smell like when you're non
Speaker:verbal? Who do you want in that room? And sometimes I'm the
Speaker:person sitting with Aunt Bethany
Speaker:in the living room because she's not invited in that room. And I
Speaker:have to remind Aunt Bethany that the person who's dying
Speaker:gets to decide what their death looks like. And I
Speaker:listen to Aunt Bethany's grief, and I listen to Aunt Bethany talk about
Speaker:why she's entitled to be in there. And I listen and I hold her
Speaker:hand and I cry with her. And I do all of it as a
Speaker:gift to the person who is dying and should get to die
Speaker:the way they want to, listening to the music they want to, surrounded
Speaker:by the people they want there, smelling their favorite scents, whether
Speaker:it's vanilla or evergreen or apples or
Speaker:lavender. And. And then I take
Speaker:what I learn. So what's great about all the different things I do
Speaker:is that I take what I learn in those situations and get to help the
Speaker:grievers, right? And. And I take what I learned from the
Speaker:grievers to help those people who are dying prepare their families
Speaker:for what's coming next. And everything I do
Speaker:kind of balances everything else out.
Speaker:And the variety
Speaker:really feeds me and gives me a lot of life. I love writing.
Speaker:I love it. It's very therapeutic for me. I run a
Speaker:writing workshop for grievers, and I run a
Speaker:writing group Through Writers Rising, we have silent writing.
Speaker:There's a group of us who do silent writing hours where we just gather together
Speaker:and sit quietly on zoom and write. And then at the end, we have about
Speaker:30 minutes to share or ask for advice and talk.
Speaker:And so when I write now, I get to write about grief
Speaker:and about death and dying and share that with people.
Speaker:I like talking. So podcasts are pretty easy for me. And
Speaker:you know, all of it together right now
Speaker:is making it feel like I have a job I don't ever
Speaker:want to retire from, which I hope I don't ever have to. Well,
Speaker:you won't. That's my hope. What is retirement? Right.
Speaker:I hope it's dying. Because
Speaker:what's awesome also about what I do right now, and probably
Speaker:you have some of this, is
Speaker:I also get to decide when and
Speaker:how I do this. Right? So in. In some ways, that's one of the
Speaker:gifts now, too. Like, I just worked through the weekend. We had a. We had
Speaker:a memorial for one of my clients
Speaker:who, who was in his 20s, and
Speaker:it was, you know, probably a 400 person memorial. And I worked all weekend.
Speaker:But. But this Friday, my son is coming home from college to
Speaker:visit, and it's my husband's birthday. And I, I've
Speaker:kept that day wide open. Right. So the same can be true as
Speaker:I age. If my husband and I want to go to Europe for two
Speaker:weeks, we can. But then I can still write when I get back. I
Speaker:hope, Even if I'm 80, you know, I hope I just
Speaker:keep doing this forever, but that I always have a really healthy balance with
Speaker:living a life that's rich and full and where I just
Speaker:keep seeking joy and trying to help other people.
Speaker:I love that. I think that's beautiful. All right, so as we wrap up, and
Speaker:I feel like there might need to be a part two, your story is going
Speaker:to be in Resilient AF Skin Deep Stories, which comes out in December.
Speaker:Thank you for that opportunity. I love it. I love when what I
Speaker:write can be out there. And I love
Speaker:that that is going to be a book. The story is about my daughter
Speaker:and I, and I love that that's something she's going to be able to show
Speaker:her children someday. So I am really grateful, grateful to you
Speaker:for the opportunity for me to have another piece of
Speaker:my story and my legacy permanently in the
Speaker:world. So thank you. You're welcome. And it's my pleasure. I,
Speaker:you know, this is my vessel, my give back from everything I went through. Maybe
Speaker:I'll come on your podcast and tell you all about it. That'd be amazing. We
Speaker:will have to do that. We're gonna swap. I would love that. But, yeah,
Speaker:I, I want to wrap up with you sharing a piece of
Speaker:advice. Now, I'm not going to give you any sort of guidelines for that because
Speaker:of the work that you do and the experiences that you have, but maybe something
Speaker:that's resonating with you from, you know, what you're carrying with you right now.
Speaker:What, what advice do you have? Maybe for someone who is going through either
Speaker:something you help your clients through or something similar to what you have been through.
Speaker:It's so funny. I just led a workshop. I don't know if you've heard of
Speaker:the book My wife said, you may want to marry me.
Speaker:It's an amazing book. It's about a woman who
Speaker:was dying and she basically put an advertisement
Speaker:in the newspaper for her husband because she wanted him to remarry. They still
Speaker:had young children. She wanted them to have a female role
Speaker:model. It's an amazing book. But I have
Speaker:a book club for Grievers and the author visited us and it was so interesting
Speaker:because we asked him what is a piece of advice he would give.
Speaker:And this was just recently. And so when you first asked me that, the thing
Speaker:I think of was his response. And he said, I'm not in the business of
Speaker:giving advice. And it was so perfect,
Speaker:right? Because like, you always want to be careful about that because one of
Speaker:the things we know about grief is that it's so individual, right? And it's
Speaker:different for everybody. And so when you start
Speaker:giving advice, there are going to be people listening to your podcast who are going
Speaker:to say, I totally disagree with that because their grief experience was different.
Speaker:Or I agree with that because some part of their
Speaker:grief experience mirrored mine. But I think what I
Speaker:can land on instead of the grief part is
Speaker:that knowing and recognizing
Speaker:that you are going to die. Right? So back to that
Speaker:question I mentioned earlier of was it expected?
Speaker:Start expecting your own death and not in an
Speaker:anxiety ridden, painful way,
Speaker:thinking it's going to be tomorrow, but expect that you are
Speaker:going to die. That is probably going to happen. I don't think the
Speaker:science is going to change that in any of our lifetimes.
Speaker:And live like you are
Speaker:going to die, which I get is so
Speaker:cliche. And people who hear that think it's ridiculous. But
Speaker:it matters because you are going to die.
Speaker:And so how are you going to fill your time? How are
Speaker:you going to spend your time? Use that when you're trying to decide whether to
Speaker:say yes or no to an invitation, right? And you can
Speaker:use it to motivate you to say yes and push yourself out of your
Speaker:comfort zone because someday you're going to die and not have that opportunity.
Speaker:You can also use it to say no because I don't want to be
Speaker:uncomfortable tonight. I want to be comfortable and that experience
Speaker:is going to be uncomfortable for me. I have a chart
Speaker:that's behind me. That's like literally behind my back. And you can kind of
Speaker:see it there if I scooch. And it's the coolest poster
Speaker:that, that I found that has a little box
Speaker:for every week of your life. And it
Speaker:goes up until like your 80th birthday and every week you
Speaker:color in one box. And I really like it and
Speaker:I love thinking about it it by the week because
Speaker:we. I think it's impossible to make every day matter.
Speaker:I think that's why it pisses people off when you're like, make every moment count.
Speaker:Because some days you just have to do laundry or go
Speaker:to your breast exam, right? Or like pay your taxes and
Speaker:we have to do stupid stuff like QuickBooks. You can't make
Speaker:every single day matter and lead a responsible life, but
Speaker:you can make an effort
Speaker:to build your legacy. I think on a weekly basis. Did I
Speaker:do something When I color that box every Thursday, because I was
Speaker:born on a Thursday, when I color that box,
Speaker:I think back on the past week and think, did I do something?
Speaker:And even if it was taking one of my kids to
Speaker:the zoo or it was a fun
Speaker:date with my husband, or seeing a friend I haven't seen in a while, or
Speaker:if it's something bigger, like going on a trip,
Speaker:publishing a book, you know, like, did this week matter? And I. I think
Speaker:that's important. So maybe if you start to think about it on a weekly basis,
Speaker:not a daily basis, and try to fit something into each week
Speaker:that will make you feel like you are living a life of purpose and
Speaker:joy, I think that that would be great.
Speaker:I love that. That's amazing. Well, I
Speaker:really appreciate you joining us today on the podcast. If you want
Speaker:to get deeper into Kimberly's world, all of her links are in the show
Speaker:notes. And thank you so much for. Thank you
Speaker:story. I'm sorry I talk so much because you've got this.
Speaker:Well, yeah, but, you know, I said a lot of words. It's okay.
Speaker:People have been listening to me for years. It's. It's totally fine. And you
Speaker:know what? Thank you to everyone who tuned in for another episode of Resilient af.
Speaker:Let us be that lighthouse in the storm for you. It is okay to
Speaker:not be okay. And life is fucking hard. But
Speaker:you don't have to go through it alone. So just remember, friends,
Speaker:you are resilient af. Thank you. Thanks, Blair.
