This week the Kids Media Club welcomes Sarah DeWitt, SVP and GM of PBS Kids, for a conversation that covers a lot of ground — and covers it brilliantly.

For international listeners, Sarah begins by unpacking how PBS actually works: a network of 330 member stations across the US, locally run but nationally coordinated, funded through a mix of voluntary public donations, corporate underwriting (with strict nutrition and advertising rules), and federal grants. It's a model unlike anything in the UK or Ireland, and understanding it makes what comes next all the more striking.

Sarah explains the two major federal funding cuts that have hit PBS Kids hard — the dissolution of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the abrupt termination of the Department of Education's Ready to Learn grant, a $100 million, five-year programme that has quietly underpinned some of PBS Kids' most beloved shows. Super Why, Odd Squad, and the brand new Phoebe and J all owe their existence, in part, to shifting presidential education priorities channelled through that grant. With it gone almost overnight, PBS Kids has cut close to 30% of its content staff and is now looking at halving its development pipeline by 2028 and 2029.

But the conversation is far from doom and gloom. Sarah talks about the extraordinary public response — kids running lemonade stands and sending in their pocket money — and shares that 82% of US voters, including 72% of Trump voters, say they value PBS for its children's content. She's also busy exploring new territory: philanthropic foundations, commercial licensing, and international co-production opportunities that PBS had never needed to pursue before.

There's also a rich discussion about what public service media can do that commercial broadcasters simply won't — from Carl the Collector, a show with a lead character on the autism spectrum that sparked a seven-year-old to ask his parents if he was autistic, to the challenge of creating developmentally appropriate short-form content that pushes back against the addictive mechanics now baked into so much of kids' media.

It's one of those episodes where the hosts keep trying to get back on track and keep getting beautifully derailed — and you won't mind one bit.

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Kids Media Club podcast.

We're without Andy today.

He's been released from duties to go on a short skiing trip with his family.

So you can only imagine the fun and games Emily and I are having trying to make the tech work.

That said, we're here.

Hopefully you can hear us.

And Emily, we've got a great guest today.

I'm really excited for this chat.

Please, please introduce who we've got.

Yeah, yeah, we, we, like, we're five minutes into recording and we already miss Andy, but this is going to be a really good one.

We are here with Sarah DeWitt, who is the SVP and GM of PBS Kids and Education.

Really great to have you, Sarah.

Thanks for joining us.

Thanks.

It's so great to be here.

It's lovely to meet both of you.

Yeah, yeah, that's really awesome.

We connected on LinkedIn recently.

I know you posted a video talking about funding cuts in the US which is something that, you know, is hitting news like newsletters, not just in entertainment, but, but, but broader worldwide.

I thought it'd be great to get you on for a chat to hear how, you know, PBS Kids is coping with that or how it actually impacts you, and also kind of to talk about PBS Kids more generally, because I know from my US Colleagues that, you know, I had a perception of what the, what the service is, but actually there's lots of nuance and there's lots of local TV station integration and all that kind of stuff.

So if it's okay with you, I'd love to just break down how PBS Kids currently operates in the US for our international listeners.

Sure.

Yes.

It's, you know, we are the public broadcaster for the US and so we've been around for nearly 60 years.

We are considered the, the number one educational brand in the United States.

But public media in the US Is a little bit different than it is in other parts of the country.

And having grown up here, here, I was kind of astonished when I learned how much more federal funding went into public broadcasting around the country.

I mean, around the world, because here in the United States, it's really, it was set up to be a really locally driven model.

Okay.

And so the concept is that there are public media stations all over the country.

There are actually 330 member stations, and those stations really have local control for how they, how they broadcast content.

And obviously, as things are changing, there's a lot changing in how stations are engaging in digital media as well.

Those stations then came together to form PBS to be A centralized point to create content for those stations that just to make it more efficient and to be, and make it easier to then distribute content across the whole service.

So I've been at PBS for, I'm going on 27 years now.

And so I definitely understand kind of the centralized nature.

I came in on the digital side.

And so that was a moment where the stations were saying we needed a digital website that's centralized for children rather than every station having their own website.

That makes it hard to market to that kind of thing.

So we have this centralized structure here.

So I worked on the PBS Kids website and then through the years have worked on, on all the content across the board, building out our gaming service, streaming video as well.

And now I oversee the PBS Kids team.

I think one other thing that's really different is the funding.

Yeah.

And so the.

We have until recently had federal funding.

I'm sure we'll get more into that in a minute.

But local stations are also tasked with making sure that they can fundraise locally.

So it's their job to find community partners to reach out to local donors.

Every show on PBS Kids has like spots at the end that say who helped underwrite it?

And then there's always a spot that says and thank you to viewers like you.

If you say that to anyone in the United States, they will immediately recognize it.

And are the public able to donate and support themselves or is it all done through those local business partners?

The public supports their local stations.

Got it.

And so if you live in Austin, Texas, you give to Austin pds.

If you live in San Francisco, you give to kqed.

So there has that.

There's been that connection to a local entity.

There is now just in the last probably 10 years, a PDS foundation, because there are folks who want to give to specific programs or support that national service, but the majority of the public gives to the local station.

But it's not like a TV license in that kind of sense.

It's voluntary donation.

Voluntary donation, yeah.

Great.

Okay.

And I was just going to ask because in Ireland, here in Ireland, our public service broadcaster runs commercials.

Does PBS run commercials?

No, we have, we do have underwriters for some, for some properties.

And so you'll see a spot that recognizes an underwriter.

But they're really strict rules around it.

You can't, the product, you can't, you know, you can't be actively selling a toy, for example.

And we also nutrition guidelines.

So if it's, you know, a children.

If it's a fast food restaurant, they usually are not able to meet the nutrition guidelines that allow you to underwrite on PBS Kids.

So it can't ever be selling, but you will.

It's acknowledgement more than selling, right?

Yeah.

And where does the, the, the line, where's the delineation?

Because I can see the validity in the centralization of it for efficiencies.

But each, each local market, how do, what do they decide?

Is it their scheduling?

Do they input to commissioning decisions?

They, they definitely are deciding on the schedule.

There are some things that over the years PBS has been able to kind of work out with the stations around there being some, like common carriage so that all the stations will air, you know, a drama at the same time on a Sunday night so that there can be a national marketing campaign for it, you know, that kind of thing.

And there is an expectation that stations will air at least seven hours of children's content during the day.

And a recommended schedule that many stations follow because they're looking at kind of our lead, what stations then do in the local markets that is more specific to where they are is often, you know, they will make some changes to the schedule depending on what time school ends because it ends in different places all over the country.

So thinking about, you know, you know, should Arthur be played in the morning right before school or Wild Kratz right when kids get home, maybe it's 4 o' clock here versus 2 o' clock somewhere else.

But they also do a lot of work on the ground in communities.

So the mission of PBS Kids is to reach all America's children, but with a special emphasis on lower income families.

And so those stations then often create partnerships with local clubs, after school programs, housing authorities, libraries.

And their job then is to take this content into those communities, do workshops for parents, make sure people know that this free resource is available for everyone.

So it's kind of like we like to say we have like boots on the ground.

You know, we have media, but then we have people who are actually out in communities engaging with that media.

So that's a big piece of what happens on the local side for kids.

That physicality of it is so interesting as something we talk about, you know, when it comes to kids connecting with the brands that they love, that sometimes that physicality is really, is really important.

And how much is the focus of your remit on education then?

Because if you're talking about resources and stuff like that, it'd be, it'd be lovely to understand a bit more about, is it education with the capital E, education with the small E, like, how do you see it fitting into the offering of the.

That you guys are putting around?

We, we refer to it as informal education.

So it's really meant to be supplemental to what kids are learning in school.

There are a lot of, there's a lot of debate in politics in the United States about preschool and whether or not there is high quality preschool offered in different communities.

Again, because the states kind of run everything, there are different opportunities throughout the country.

And so one of the things we've really focused on is how does PBS Kids help prepare kids for school, particularly in areas where there isn't high quality preschool education or daycare available.

So if you have television, a tablet, an opportunity to play PBS Kids games, we are presenting kind of core skills that'll help you get ready for school.

So we do have very specific learning frameworks.

We work with educational experts, we work with advisors and teachers to make sure that our content really meets the needs of kids.

But it isn't a curriculum.

So is it that would.

You were a primary school teacher before I was a preschool teacher.

Okay, so when you say it's not curriculum, is it like it's not all ABCs, 1, 2, 3s, there's, there's softer skills there.

Would that be fair to say?

It's more like it's not sequenced the way that it would be in a classroom.

You're not like, today we're going to watch this episode and it will cover this and then the next episode is going to build on that.

You know, it's not lined up to meet the formal education standards.

But any episode you would watch of a show like super why that's a literacy show will help with learning basic, like letter recognition, phonemic awareness, you know, like early spelling.

Like all of it kind of addresses the things that preschoolers need.

Did you find that that became even more important in the time after Covid?

Because I remember in the time after Covid that preschool readiness really took a hit.

So that it feels like in the last three, four years that's become even more important.

Yes.

And I think what's happened for us is then we're hearing from more families that they would really like basic literacy and math.

Like that is what we feel like.

There's a real gap right now because of COVID and that social and emotional learning, how kids engage with one another.

So we have always thought of ourselves as being kind of whole child curriculum.

We focus on science, we have computational thinking, like early coding.

Like, we have shows that go really deep in different areas and we really are thinking since COVID we've been much more focused on social, emotional learning, literacy, math and, and mental health.

Anxiety levels are very high children.

And really, you know, our most popular show is Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood.

And there's a lot of, you know, how do you, how do you calm yourself down, taking deep breaths, you know, talking to grownups, you know, really trying to, to help model that for children.

How much is the focus preschool versus kind of like, like older school or you know you mentioned preschool is, is a core of it.

Like do do educational topics like flip up into things like digital literacy, like where, where's there's probably not a cut off but like is is preschool really the, the, the sweet spot?

Well, there is a cutoff.

Our, our Target is ages 2 to 8 and, and honestly there are many who wish that we went older than eight there.

It's, it's definitely there's a gap.

I'm sure I, I, you know we've discussed this at the Kids Screen Conference many times that there's a real gap for those older kids.

And for us it's really about the funding.

We feel like this is, we have the federal funding we've had through the years, plus the donations really help us super serve kind of the preschool and that early elementary audience.

But we just haven't had the fund the resources to be able to go much older than that.

But to your original question, yes, we do have shows that address media literacy, digital literacy, different components of, of, of different topics.

So literacy is a big topic and we have, you know, early literacy.

But then we have a show like Molly of Denali which is focused on informational text like how do you read brochures, how do you get information from a text message, how do you look something up on the Internet and then how do you know it comes from a trusted source?

So really trying to get into other aspects of, of the content, that's super.

Important before, before we get into the funding question question, because I'm sure we could talk for a long time on that.

Just explain to us how you've seen those touch points.

So you mentioned games and apps.

I mean obviously in the 20 something years that you've been there, you will have seen your media touch point points grow.

In what ways do you do you spread PBS kids content in that way?

So we really, the way we approach it is we want to think about all the different ways that kids would be looking for content and making sure that we have a PBS presence there.

So there still are a Lot of children in the United States who don't have persistent broadband.

And so broadcast continues to be an important delivery vehicle for us.

We have member stations in very rural markets, very poor markets who we can see in our ratings that those children are watching a lot of PBS Kids and they're watching it over the year.

And then we have a free PBS Kids video app that is for tablet or mobile but also available on connected TVs Roku Apple TV.

And we have a live linear feed that then is on services like Amazon prime in front of the paywall in the United States with no commercials, YouTube TV, places like that.

And then also we have a PBS Kids YouTube channel.

The games piece is critically important for us.

And so we have those on the pbskids.org site and also in the free PBS Kids Games app.

And that's a library of over 250 games that are all then tied to the same educational standards.

But we also have YouTube, we have podcasts, excuse me, that we have on YouTube also on our own video player and on podcast platforms.

Just another way that kids engage and then original YouTube content as well.

So I feel like the show Odd Squad.

Are you all familiar with Odd Squad us?

That's one that I love how Sinking Ship and the producers kind of built that world across multiple platforms and I loved working with them on this.

That there's episodes of the show, there are standard episodes, but there's also the games that really said tapped into.

Kids want to be agents.

They want to be an Odd Squad agent.

So you create an avatar and you are solving math problem odd issues as an agent yourself.

Their podcast is the Odd News Network.

So you're logging in and listening as if you are an agent and you're getting the news from the radio show.

And then their YouTube presence is odd Tube where they have, you know, agents who are talking directly to camera.

And in one season we're actually able to respond to comments doing kind of more of a live agent.

Olympia did more of a a live kind of situation with Odd Tube that year.

And I just love that way of thinking about how does this property kind of extend itself in different ways across all these different platforms.

Meeting the the expectations that kids have for that platform and really kind of also tapping into the ways that those kids want to play the show.

So that's my just my favorite thing about public media is that we can do this, this kind of multi platform engagement and then our stations will take it to another level by giving out Odd Squad badges and doing live events where kids, like, solve math problems like in the room, you know.

So I love that you kind of characterize like your remit is to be wherever kids are.

And I think that, you know, in public service media for kids, I think that's really, that's really important.

How, like, how do you.

Because one of the things that public service, public service entities can sometimes struggle with is when these platforms require global engagement.

So somewhere like YouTube where, you know, geo blocking is rightly or wrongly is the scourge of the algorithm.

And it kind of.

It under.

It undercuts you whenever you're doing that.

When like you a platform like YouTube or maybe a platform like Roblox, you know, some of these more global.

These platforms really want you to operate globally, which I totally get is kind of like it is in contradiction to the funding model.

How do you guys manage to net that one out?

It's such a great question.

We grapple with it all the time because it is, you know, it is really.

It's a challenge.

So in the case, just the ways that our model has always worked has been we are creating content within the United States and then there are licensing opportunities across the world.

I mean, through the years we've even licensed the games to different broadcasters who pick things up.

You know, Odd Squad is also like our mo.

Last two seasons are Odd Squad uk, you know, and we're.

It's so it's just that that's the way the model had always worked and now we are having to look at it differently.

We are talking to a lot of those international partners with the PBSD who has the home video rights for much of our content and does that international licensing to see where there are opportunities for us to post content to the PBS Kids YouTube channel, but also allow it to be accessible globally.

Because that does then help the algorithm.

Yeah, it does.

Will ultimately help you locally.

Exactly.

And it boosts our US numbers.

Those are the only numbers that matter to the PBS board and to the PBS stations.

But the better that, you know, the better the algorithm works in our favor, the better those numbers are.

We don't have ads.

And so that also is just something we have to accept is going to be the situation for us.

But where we have been able to launch things globally, that's been useful.

And.

But then, you know, the PBS Kids isn't a brand that's necessarily known internationally.

So that's also a constant conversation of, you know, is it okay for it to be under the PBS Kids umbrella, even if it's going to be in places where that's not a known brand?

Yeah, yeah, that's.

And I think there's also good quality kids content that is educational at its heart.

It does travel and it does have a value outside the local market, even though those measures and metrics are important, as you said to the PBS Kids board.

And that's very much bound by the us But I feel there's value.

And again, having worked at BBC Children's in Education in the uk, you look at public service content from other countries and actually it's great as a parent to think that your kids can, can sample those too.

When we talk about Bluey, and it's not public service per se, but, you know, fun family values, but you're hearing Aussie accents and Aussie slang.

I still credit super why for my two own children's love of reading.

Genuinely have a massive soft spot in my heart for super why.

And that wouldn't have, you know, existed without you guys.

But, you know, gosh, 12, 13 years ago, I think it was on.

Was it on Channel 5?

What was it on?

Anyway, I forget.

But so I think there's value in that public service content that has that flavor of other territories and it would be a shame not to allow that to travel.

I agree.

I agree.

And I think too there's value also just in public service content in that it's not being crafted to meet the same expectations of the platform right now.

You know, I often, especially in these last few months, as we've been talking to a lot of reporters in the United States, have to just point out that, you know, what makes us different is we are not focused on revenue, we're not focused on kind of a commercial success.

What we're focused on is, is this going to meet children's needs, Is this developmentally appropriate, is it going to inspire a love of learning?

And.

And often that can be commercially successful.

And we certainly have seen, you know, great success and have received revenue support by that, this international distribution of some of our content, but it's also doing something different.

And so I think that's.

That's one of the things that I think is so important about public service content really across the world.

I will say too, when we launched Odd Squad uk, there was a question from some stations like, you know, how do we feel about it being British accents?

Like, are we going to get any responses?

I mean, kids in the United States loved it and it just like.

And it fit the whole idea of it.

This odd squad, like, could be anywhere.

And.

And it's this, you know, this aspirational organization that, like any kid can be a part of, it just made it even more fantastic for kids in the U.S. i think.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

But.

And it is that thing like that, that is one of the dark voodoo magic of public service media.

I mean, that in a positive way is that, like, it doesn't have the same remit commercially, but the bottom line is it needs to engage, right.

And it needs to connect.

Because if the public aren't watching it, you know, or it's not kind of inspiring the public, then it's.

It's not kind of doing its job either.

And obviously engagement and commercial viability, you know, they go hand in hand with each other.

But I, you know, I think that the.

Yeah, your remit, being able to.

Being able to.

To create content that doesn't have to hit certain commercial metrics is.

Is.

Is.

So it's one of the reasons you're able to do the creative stuff that you do.

How do you just to jump in there, Emily.

Sorry to interrupt, but I, I like that tension point.

I just wanted to expand on that because I think you're right.

It's great being relieved of those kind of commercial imperatives.

But as.

As you said, public service content doesn't exist in a.

In a vacuum.

So how.

How do you keep across those.

Those trends?

You know, we look at Anime, K Pop, Demon Hunters.

How do you make sure that you can bring those in in a way that elevates the product?

I mean, I think when we are looking at YouTube, for example, I could just say, like any new platform, whenever we start a.

Start on it, we have a conversation here about, okay, but what's the PBS Kids way we would do this?

We approach this differently.

I think about when streaming video first was starting, we were watching all these animated clickable ads appear across streaming video, and we had one of the most fun conversations here saying, okay, how would we use that?

What if we weren't using it to sell something, but instead using it to promote learning?

And we did a series of experiments of what if kids could play along with the show?

Like, how much was too distracting, how much, you know, And I think that that has really expanded and improved a lot of our gameplay is being able to think more seamlessly across video and interactivity.

And while it still isn't something that works in video the same way, certainly it's the kind of thing that works well for games.

So we are always trying to take inspiration from what's out there.

And, you know, we're.

Shorts are controversial for kids and, and something that I think we are concerned about, but also recognize it's in a lot of places.

And so we're trying to think about what is, what is a short that would be done in a PBS Kids way.

We've done shorts for a long time that were around very specific concepts.

Does that work within the new kind of shorts format?

And can we kind of push back a little bit against the ways that it's being.

That shorts are being used right now to kind of keep kids watching, promoting that more addictive behavior?

Is there, is there something we can do that is developmentally appropriately paced that still is shorter form content that really, like, packs some kind of understanding, a lesson, some kind of tidbit that it can take away, you know, So I think that's, that's like the tension, certainly gameplay too.

So much of what you're seeing in games right now is really a child is playing, and there's no clear stopping point or end point.

You're always right on the edge of, oh, I'm about to do this, and I just achieved this, but now I've got this other thing.

And so there's no.

You just keep playing, keep playing.

And we've been talking to our producers about making sure that there are clear levels.

There's a moment where you have achieved something and the child can take a breath and make a decision.

Do I want to play a new game?

Do I want to keep playing this game?

Or is it time for dinner?

You know, like, where are their natural breakpoints?

And so I think part of the tension for us is where do we kind of push back against what's happening in the trends and where do we embrace it and try to take it in an educational way?

Yeah.

Oh, it's fun.

I feel like, like I'm like, we need to get back to funding.

But like, the conversations with so nicely in other ways, I'm like, there's just so much juice in me here to be getting into.

But I would love to get into the funding thing because that, that's what kind of caused us to reach out to you in the first instance.

So we've, you've, you've explained it a little bit that there's, there is federal funding, there's, there's local fundraising, there's, you know, some support and partnerships from commerce and stuff like that.

But obviously we're hearing that, you know, that federal funding from a US Perspective has been cut.

So how does that impact you guys?

Or do you need to like, maybe need to describe the whole thing in more detail?

Yeah, it's very significant.

So I think I'll.

If it's okay, I will back up and kind of overview.

There were really two sources of federal funding that supported PBS Kids in particular.

And one is what I think has gotten the most news is the big vote to rescind funding for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which was the outside entity that was crafted to be kind of a heat shield, political protection for pbs.

So the Congress in the United States would appropriate a certain amount of funding to go to public media.

It would go to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, who would then distribute it to public media, radio and television, to the stations, and then some for content.

So that is, that is one of the big pieces that was cut that really got the most attention because that was a congressional vote to rescind that funding.

And now the Corporation for Public Broadcasting has dissolved.

So that is one source of funding that went to our stations and then also some of it came to pbs.

The larger funding for PBS Kids actually came through a different congressional act that went through the US Department of Education.

And that was a grant.

It was called Ready to Learn.

Every five years it would be updated based on whatever that particular presidential administration's priorities were for education.

So different presidents, it kind of changed focus.

So Super Y came out during George W. Bush because his big focus was literacy and no Child Left Behind.

Odd Squad, I believe was Obama years because it was more focused on STEM and data.

So, you know, these, these shows actually kind of married with political priorities for education in the United States.

So that grant was terminated in May, and we were only four months, five months from the end of a five year cycle.

So it's kind of like nearly sounds a bit like a BBC charter renewal in a sense that the, the funding is agreed and, and it's probably not quite the same thing, but it kind of feels aligned with that.

That termination came from, you know, multiple things that happened.

The president issued an executive order that no federal funding should be going to PBS or npr, but it's not necessarily tied to that.

What the Department of Ed said is that we were not meeting the priorities of the program.

I will just say five years ago, Trump was in office and we applied and were awarded the grant in his administration.

And we're meeting, we're working under his administration.

So.

But that grant was terminated immediately.

Overnight.

Pencils down.

It was a $100 million grant, so significant funding.

So it was 20 million a year that went just to PBS Kids.

The workstations did, and the content we created, and then also our staff.

And we had to pull everything back kind of overnight.

There were research studies in the field.

It all just ended.

And so that's really been the biggest hit to us.

So we have cut close to 30% of our staff who worked on just PBS Kids content.

Many of our member stations have had to cut back on their education teams because this happened at the end of a grant cycle.

I will say we had a lot of content that had been created that was about to roll out.

So what we had to do is kind of step back and look at our library.

We had three programs that were already kind of queued up.

And so in the near term, viewers of PBS Kids are not going to see a huge difference in what happens on PBS Kids.

The last show to be funded by that federal Department of Education grant just launched on Monday.

It's called Phoebe and J.

And it is a preschool literacy show, and it's environmental literacy.

So how do you look for signs?

Like, how do you find where is the right place to cross the road?

How do you choose the right elevator button?

You know, like, how do you use literacy in the world to navigate it?

It's a really cute, fun show.

It's original ip.

This is something else that public media can do that a lot of, a lot of the other networks are not doing right now.

But it was supposed to launch in September, and we decided to hold it to give ourselves a little more time to finish production, but also to allow us to spread out our content a little bit longer while we kind of figure out what the new normal is.

So that cut of funding means that right now we're okay.

But when I look at 28, 29, we likely are going to be cutting our development pipeline in half.

That's kind of where we are right now.

We are seeing the public really step up.

The member stations have gone way up.

There's, you know, a member of Congress introduced legislation to try to restore funding.

It didn't pass this round, but it's possible, you know, so there's just, there's a lot to play out here to see what will happen.

But it means right now, kind of the development pipeline is, is the biggest thing in flux.

Yeah, it, I can hear the, the emotion in your voice when you're talking about it because it's, it was such a rug Pull, wasn't it?

And, and this is.

It makes me both sad and angry at the same time.

But, you know, immediately you have to go into crisis management mode.

How do we make the content that we have last longer so that we can serve and service our audience?

You mentioned that there, there's been a, I say a positive response, but there's been a reaction from the audience.

Just tell us a little bit about that, because I can imagine that those local business partners and the public are like, no, we can't.

We can't have this thing disappear in 28.

And we love this.

Yes.

We have had all kinds of, of families across the country.

And by all kinds, I mean, people from every state send notes and letters to us about how much our programming means to them.

There have been at least two occasions where kids have sent in the.

Their allowance.

One, one of our stations, GBH in Boston, a group of kids did a lemonade stand for a week and mailed all of their money into the station.

And so we're getting wonderful things like that.

What we also know is that we have bipartisan support in the United States for the kids content.

Absolutely.

I mean, for PBS across the board, but also for the kids content.

And I want to make sure I get these Numbers Right.

But 82% of voters, including 72% of Trump voters, say they value PBS for its children's programming and educational tools.

And, you know, the, the amount of federal funding that was going to it is a dollar and 60 cents per taxpayer.

So it's, it was very inexpensive.

So we are hearing that support and have a lot of, a lot of folks saying, like, how do we make sure that we can keep this going?

Unfortunately, because of all the news about the Coronavirus Corporation for Public Broadcasting having to shut down, many people think that means PBS Kids is, is shutting down.

And so that's part of why we are putting so many messages out saying, no, we're still here.

You can still download the app, watch it, make sure that you're supporting your station, but also tell your community how much you love it.

Tell your member of Congress how much you love it.

Because we, we are still able to keep going because of this kind of bizarre model that we have where we have funding from so many different sources.

It means that cutting off that one piece didn't put us under.

Yeah, it's something.

I remember we talked about it before on the podcast.

It was like the Reddit thread about the BBC again, who.

It was like, yeah, but I don't like this person.

And oh, my God, Gary Lineker's overpaid and like, you know, the way the Internet can get so annoyed at itself.

But the one thing that united the Internet was like, but see cbbs, we love it.

It's like, you know what I mean?

It's like education for kids through great entertainment is kind of it like, you can't argue with that.

You know, is there any other would, like, is there any other funding that you guys would pursue?

I don't even know.

Like, it's probably too, it's all too immediate when you're reacting and you're in crisis management mode about, oh, oh no.

Emily, I'm pounding the pavement.

I'm out there like for other.

Yeah.

So I, you know, because we have this huge grant from the Department of Education, we did not do have a lot of interaction with the philanthropic community, with private foundations in the U.S. some of our programs do because another unique thing about PBS is our creators retain their IP because we are an investor, but we're where we're not necessarily a majority investor.

And so they keep their own ip.

They're able to then derive revenue from toys and licensing.

That isn't something that happens here.

So, so a lot of our producers, part producing partners, knew some foundations and had received some grants.

But this is a new area for us.

So we've had two or three major US foundations step up over the last few months, give emergency grants to PBS Kids.

That's how we're able to, to finish out.

Some of the things were in production and I'm now regularly talking to them and thinking about what other kind of programs are out there that fund early childhood work that also that we fall within their priorities.

So trying to understand that landscape.

The other thing that we're thinking about differently is potential for commercial partnerships.

We do have, you know, if you think about the home video business, we have a free exclusive broadcast window within the United States and streaming window within the United States.

But then our shows can be sold internationally.

You know, they can go like older seasons, can go to a commercial network, commercial partner can be on Netflix, can be on Amazon and is there something similar we can do in the game space?

Are there, are there ed tech companies or are there commercial organizations who would benefit from a library like PBS Kids and who would be interested in licensing those content or co producing for non exclusive distribution?

These are things that we never had explored before that now I'm trying to really look at.

Are there commercial opportunities for some of our content and ways that we can represent our producers in conversations for some of those distribution opportunities.

So, yeah, it's all open now.

I feel like my job has changed dramatically.

I can imagine.

And when you mentioned about Odd Squad before and the number of touch points for Odd Squad, that, that point you made, that actually public service content does not have to be exclusive from commercially successful.

The two can coexist in harmony.

One can't drive, the other, that is the commercial can't drive.

Drive the bus.

But actually, in a way, if it's, if it's created and distributed in a way that gives it that potential to then be commercialized, then that's viable and that gives you a route to profitability with the right partners.

So that's, that feels like a positive for you in terms of the wider kids media landscape.

Obviously you mentioned Kids Screen.

You, you look outside of the US and look at those commercial broadcasters and you look at YouTube.

How do you see it playing out?

I mean, obviously it's a, it's a challenging time globally for, for kids media, but, and, and public service content has a place within that.

But how do you see it playing out?

At the moment, we've got potential social media bans bubbling up in various markets.

I think we, we really, you know, from the PBS perspective, we just keep thinking if we, we have an opportunity to really talk about how different we are, we have an opportunity to say, there are all of these things happening.

There are these social media bans.

There are, there are things happening on YouTube that parents are very concerned about.

We are a safe, trusted place for preschoolers, you know, and have been for a long time.

We know that we are a trusted space.

You know, it's funny, for years people have said, oh, it'd be great if you have a parent dashboard or something for parents to track.

Every time we tried to build something like that, parents don't use it.

And when we go into focus groups, it's because they say, oh, well, we trust you.

You know, you're the one place I can turn on the PBS Kids video app and just let my kids watch.

And I'm not worried that they're going to end up somewhere that's inappropriate for them.

And so I don't need to check in.

And so it's this kind of wonderful space we occupy.

And so how do we lean into that even more?

How do we say, like, this is something that you're looking for for kids and we offer it and we will continue to be that trusted partner.

I think, you know, our biggest struggle right now in this, in this fragmented space, but also up against all these commercial partners who have their budgets are so much larger is really discoverability and how do we break through?

How do we let them know that we have a brand new show?

It's just hard to get the word out in this space right now.

But I think we do offer an alternative that parents are actively looking for.

When I think globally, I kind of thought your question was going to go a different direction.

So I was going over here.

When I think globally, I mean we do have relationships with the BBC with, with other organizations and regularly talk to them.

I think we, when, when all of this defunding started we thought this might be the moment to really try to do more co production.

But they're also now many, many countries are putting limitations on the amount of US content to engage with.

And so it's kind of, it's making these even more challenging for us to try to see.

How could we, how could we partner with other like minded organizations?

Because certainly across the world public media is often trying to do really similar things and wouldn't it be great if we could work closely together?

Yeah, definitely.

Because it feels like and I much and also understand that there it can be remit of public service broadcasting to like reflect the local, the local market.

Like kids are also far like more comfortable with seeing like you know, British accents in, in Odd Squad or Australian accents in Bluey.

Right.

And blurry.

Wow.

No, everyone that you know, everyone's watching Netflix at the same time as public service.

So there's always going to be that, you know, that mixture is there, you know, even, even we're not necessarily seeing a ton of foreign language content for kids yet.

But you know, that's definitely something that older audiences are doing.

So and there are, there are those universal things there that preschoolers go through.

Whether you're in the U.S. uK or you're in, you know, Malaysia.

There are certain developmental milestones that tend to stick, you know, be pretty consistent.

And so actually that gives you a point of commonality even if there are regional nuances.

And then when it comes to funding models that you were talking about and philanthropic endeavors because obviously one of the big things that I was tracking last year was Sesame Street.

So Sesame street has also gone through iterations as pbs.

You know, you guys have, it's been a PBS show for many years.

But those types of, those types of deals, you know, I guess it's trying to find new ways of doing deals because that wasn't necessarily a typical way of doing a deal before.

And whether you guys have gone co Window with Netflix on, on the new, on the new Sesame street content.

So I guess there's ways of doing it right.

And that's an example where, you know, we are a primary US distributor, same day and date with Netflix and investing in Sesame street, but then Netflix also could be their global partner.

And so like, how do you, how do you build on the strength of, of PBS and then also think about like the rest of the world at the same time?

Yeah.

And everyone, everyone kind of wins from it.

What's the type of content that you think wouldn't exist without PBS in the mix?

Some of the content that many folks look at and think, oh, that's going to be too niche or too specific.

So we launched a show last year called Carl the Collector and it's the first show that we have that we've produced that has a lead character on the autism spectrum.

And he's a raccoon.

He loves to collect things.

He has a really great group of friends.

And it's one of the shows that's come up a lot through these defunding conversations because it's absolutely finding an audience and families who have children on the spectrum in them or are seeing their kids reflected in ways they had not seen before.

I mean, a mom write in to say we had not told our 7 year old about his diagnosis and he was watching PBS Kids and then came up to say, am I autistic?

Because sometimes I feel like Carl.

And that gave them an opportunity to talk about, yes, you are.

And look, you have this, you know, you have this great role model and.

Now you have cool and funny and yeah, lots of other things.

Who is like.

And for kids who are not on the spectrum also see, you know what we, in the testing we did for that show, kids who are not on the spectrum when an episode ended, would say, oh yeah, I know a kid like that.

Like I, you know, that, that reminds me of so and so and oh yeah, I can be friends with him, you know, and we do Legos together, you know, or something like that.

Like really trying to normalize and help kids recognize that even if you approach a problem differently or think differently, you can still be friends with this person.

As we were working on that show, it just became very clear that this was not a show a commercial network would, would focus on.

Because for a lot of folks, they were like, oh, in that autism show you're doing?

And we're like, no, it's not an autism show.

It's a show about social emotional development.

And it has this nuance to it and this aspect to it that's kind of opening it up to all kinds of new storytelling.

So I think that's an example of something that I don't see another network doing a show like that right now.

And even if I think about Phoebe and J that just launched on Monday, we're not seeing a lot of commercial entities focus on first time creators on, on original ip.

This is not a time when people feel comfortable doing that.

We said this was a great story that represented that, that told some authentic stories that we didn't yet have on our air.

You know, Phoebe and Jay are twins and they live in an apartment building and it's not a brand new apartment building.

We know from the backstory that it's, it's likely affordable housing in the US but it's a joyful, fun show that reflects the lived of lived experience of so many kids in our, in our audience and shows possibilities for learning how to read and learning how to navigate the world that is universal to all kids.

So we, we feel like there's still something to do that on paper a commercial network would say there's no way, it's too, too, it's too narrow.

Whereas we can see how we have broader appeal but also is so important to our mission.

I'm sorry, that was a long answer to your question.

Obviously I feel.

Can we just take it to the pub now?

Because I just feel like this conversation could go on for agents and it's.

I'm having on every word that you're saying because it resonates a lot, you know, and if you think, you know that that original IP piece that public service broadcast offers right now, I think also the, an element of some consistency that you know when public service investment comes into kids media at the moment you might get a season two.

Right.

That is not happening in commercial obviously, you know, abrupt funding decisions aside, you know.

But generally speaking public service are in it for the long run on the IP that they're creating because they get that notion of audience six time to bills and you know, canceling after one season is throwing out all that hard work.

So yeah, I just, I'm really enjoying this conversation.

Jo, is there any one last question that you, you have because we need to, we do need to wrap it.

No, I too am enjoying it and it's making me think so, so much more and I feel like ending on a rallying cry which I would.

But this stuff is so very important and having, having worked at public service and I mean we're just we're very passionate about the industry and the future sustainability of the industry, no matter whether it's US or UK or globally.

But I just come back to that point, which is something that chimes from my time at BBC.

Children's in Education is which government, administration, country set of parents wouldn't want a generation of kids who were going out into the world and starting school prepared, well rounded, balanced, knowing how to regulate themselves.

I mean these are fundamental things that genuinely risk not being supported if, if public service broadcast doesn't continue to be, to be funded across the board.

So it's so very important.

I want to say thank you to you for sticking it out for 27 odd years because it's challenging.

I realize it's challenging.

And last year when that funding was pulled, it must have been a real sucker punch.

Yes, it was.

And I think if it weren't for the mission that it, we wouldn't have had so many people kind of even here just say, okay, at least we know what we should be focused on.

And what you said about like, who wouldn't want kids to start school in a well rounded, you know, all of this.

It also has lasting benefits.

You know, Yalda Uls from the center for Scholars and storytellers at UCLA did a study of Daniel Tiger's neighborhood with 16 year olds.

So like the first class who had watched the show and what they discovered was that a lot of these kids as teenagers remembered the show, could still sing a song, talked about using those strategies when they had an argument with a friend.

I mean that's the power of this kind, like really intentional media, whether it comes from commercial or public service, you know, like, and it has so much power.

So we need a thriving community.

We need, we need people out there doing the right thing for kids.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Awesome.

I love that.

No, sorry.

I feel so energized.

Anyway, listen, thank you so much for joining us.

Sarah DeWitt from PBS Kids.

Um, yeah, I guess.

Do I have to do the sign off now, Joe?

Listen to the Kids Media Club podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

We're also on YouTube and TikTok hit subscribe and, and thanks for joining us.

We'll see you next time.

Andy will be back and the chaos will maybe be a bit.

But.