This week on the podcast, Shaunna and Lisa welcome two very special guests, Saxton Tobin and his mom, Megan Tobin. Saxton is an 17-year-old trangender athlete, and he and Megan speak about his experience in triathlon and what they have learned along the way. 

Many of our listeners strive to be allies to underrepresented groups within their communities, and it is important that we all continue to do so. It’s also important that we act in ways that demonstrate our allyship - not just label ourselves as allies. Saxton and Megan weigh in with their best advice on how we can all be better allies to trans folks within the endurance sport community, and on how we can interrupt the “fiction narratives” that are often created around trans athletes’ participation in sport. 

Our most important takeaway from this conversation with Megan and Saxton is that the best thing we can do to demonstrate our allyship is to listen. Listen to what trans folks in our triathlon communities are saying and asking for, and include them at the table when decisions are being made about their participation in sport. This will help us move toward a sporting community that values the voices and opinions of groups that have previously been excluded or oppressed in the endurance sport community. 

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So Lisa, I cannot count how many podcasts

we've had where we've said that we were going to invite a really

cool trans guest to talk about transgender concerns in

endurance sport, because we should not try to speak for a

community that we don't belong to. And so we talked way too

long. It's time for us to literally make this happen. So

we've just delayed for what almost a year now. And so we

finally get to bring someone on. So I'm really excited about

today's episode.

Yeah, it's gonna be great. And I think it's

really timely given all of the anti trans bills that have been

passing in the United States, particularly against trans girls

and women and participating in girls and women's sports. So,

you know, advocacy around that issue is critical, I think so

after the break, we will introduce our two guests and we

will have some learning.

I'm Dr. Shawna Payne gold and I go by

she her her pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa englefield. And I go by she

her hers.

Welcome to unfazed a podcast to disrupt

your normal and challenge your brain to go the distance.

All right, yay. So we have two fabulous

guests with us today, Megan and Saxton so they are both

connected to the endurance sports world and so I will hand

it over them to introduce themselves and tell us a little

bit about your background.

Um, hi, I'm Saxton. I I'm a triathlete. I'm

a trans triathlete. I'm 17. I'm in high school. Um, I like comic

books. That's the only thing that can come from.

That's great. That's great. We love it.

Hi, I'm Megan. I'm a triathlete open water swimmer

triathlon coach, and and I happen to be saxtons mom.

Awesome. And Shaunna and I know Megan

through the outspoken summit, as Megan is an outspoken

triathletes certainly has lots of fantastic opinions. So

hopefully, we'll hear a few of those today.

I'm known for being outspoken and feisty, so

So we're good. Well, we're all about

soapboxes. We're all about being feisty. We're all about giving

voice. And so I'm just really excited to have both of you

here. One of the things that I really wanted to get into into

today's conversation is, I want to hear more about how we can be

allies in endurance sport community, I have a mentor of

mine that says all the time that, you know, we kind of throw

this ally word around a lot, really not knowing what it means

and even just kind of throwing it around with a little

privilege saying, Well, I'm an ally to this group, or I'm an

ally to that group, when in fact, I just think we should

call ourselves a bit more and try to demonstrate ally

characteristics, but I really can't deem myself and ally, I

just want to do the best that I can to be one. And so I want to

hear from you all, what can we do to be better allies, because

we are members of the endurance sport community, we want

everyone to feel included and feel this really high sense of

belonging. So if you had like this magic wand to wait to tell

us do better, y'all. What would that be?

Oh, man, that that's a really good question.

Oh, God, I have to say that when an athlete or when a trans

athlete is trying to like kind of talk about something that

they find troubling within the the endurance sport community,

I'd say just listen to them, don't try and like talk over

them or don't try and interrupt in any type of way. Just listen

to them fully, and try and get an understanding of where

they're coming from with it. And that's, that's kind of like the

least you could do when it comes to it. Yeah.

So bottom line, listen, um, and then what

about action steps, right? I know that some people are very

interested in taking action and wanting to do something. So

presumably, when someone in the sport is listening to a trans

athlete about their concerns, it's probably not best for that

person to then roll off and act without, you know, engaging with

athletes, right. So what kind of recommendations do you all have

for actually doing something about inclusion for trans

athletes

talk to talk to trans athletes about what they

think should be done and what they're comfortable with like

doing and more or less just like if you if you're talking to a

trans athletes And they're saying like, Oh, I don't really

want to, like, go like, I don't want to cause a whole thing

about it. Just maybe, like, slowly work your way through it,

instead of just gung-ho-ing it and being like, ah, trans folks.

You know, when, when, when you ask the question,

I think it's interesting, because I think you've already

kind of given the answers in previous podcasts and social

posts that, that this that you two have both posted. So, you

know, well, meaning people who want to take action, but don't

include the community, like people you can't make, you can't

make good positive change that positively affects that

community. If that if those people aren't represented at the

table, and it doesn't, and it's, it's the same with the

transgender community. It's the same with non binary, it's the

same with the LGB. So, and it's the same, it's the same with,

you know, any other diversity initiative, if those people

aren't at the table included in the conversation, any action may

be well meaning, but possibly very misguided. So, yeah. And,

and, you know, good. I know that when texten came out, I was

really gung ho to be super supportive. And, and, and some

things were great. And other things were maybe a little too

much too soon, you know, because I was just like, wanting to show

how much I cared and supported and so I had to really learn to

to listen more and do what what he wanted when he was ready. So,

yeah, yeah.

Like, maybe a month after I came out, she was

like, we're gonna get you on hormones. We're going to have

surgery as soon as possible. And I was like, Okay. I was like,

down. Like, I just said, I don't think I'm a girl. And she was

like, oh, when I came out to her first thing said out of her

mouth was we're not going to the penis store today, though,

that that's out of context. But that's another

story. I did way better the second time, he told me.

Okay, okay. Well, that's, that's good. great

feedback, though, right? Because you're, there are many people

who so desperately want to be an ally, like Shaunna said, and

they want to do the right thing. And they're tripping over

themselves, right. But that could be at a speed that is

uncomfortable, or inappropriate for the person that they're

trying to support. Right. So taking a step back, and the

listening part that you've both mentioned, I think it's simple,

but Gosh, we're really bad at doing it. You know, like, you

know, we're, whatever community we're trying to support, you

know, a community we don't belong to, yeah, speak less,

Right. And I'm even thinking about so

listen more.

Saxon, I've had a number of students I'm, I'm a professor, I

teach in higher education. And so I have college students that

come to me, and I'm very grateful and feel blessed that

they would even think of feeling comfortable enough to come out

to me for any reason. And when they do in the beginning, many

years ago, I felt like I needed to say something like, I needed

a good script, or, you know, what do I say in response, etc.

And now, it's been more of sitting and listening. I usually

ask them if it's okay to give them a hug, and I've gotten 100%

out of 100 with that, some of them have completely wept.

Others of them have said Okay, great, now I feel okay enough to

go home and tell my parents or go tell someone else. And so I

don't even think I said any like nothing go here it I didn't say

anything at all. And I'm wondering if not saying anything

is okay. But it sounds like it is if it forces me or people

like us to listen more rather than jumping to a quick

conclusion. So it's, it kind of reminds me Lisa, of doing

diversity to people. Rather than being accepting of people. It's

like, Okay, I got a whole plan. This is what we don't do this

Saxton. Let's do it. And it's like, he even though that's my

type a go get it personality reining it in. And so I

appreciate what you're saying about listening first, doing

much later after we get greenlights to do so.

It's you always want to get consent in any type

of case with anybody whether you're going to do anything and

no matter no matter what they say. Like if they're not saying

like, Okay, go ahead and do this. Just wait.

Yeah, it's it's so it's profound in its

simplicity, right. So I'm curious thinking about ally

ship, but taking it kind of beyond the individual. Whether

that's a friend or you know, someone you're in a race with,

or in In a workplace, how, what's your experience both been

with the national governing bodies? So in your case, it

would be USA Triathlon, presumably? How have you found

the experience in working with them to help them be more

inclusive and to make sure that you have a fantastic race

experience?

Um, well, they were really good with my name

change when I when I first came out, and I was getting

everything kind of like set up and we couldn't legally change

my name yet. But USA T was really quick with it. And like,

I got a new card really fast. And then they changed the gender

marker on it really, really fast. And so that was just

really great. They were amazing with it. And I ended up

competing in the boy in the, in the boys, or the male High

School championship against the 18 year olds when I was 14.

So um, so I one of the things that moms of trans

kids should know is that there I think I've read a bunch of

articles about how moms tend to become unwitting training like

advocates, and legal experts, because you're advocating for

your child who can't legally do these things on their own, like

change their name, change their passport, change their birth

certificate, and every single thing is a fight every every

single thing, even in states where laws have been passed, to

make it easy or to protect the student, the child. It's still

it's still really hard. So and there's a lot of horror stories

that I even have about us, you know, for example, birth

certificates and passports where federal laws versus state laws

had us in these no man's land where it took years to get that

stuff changed. We were very lucky because we moved to San

Francisco about a year before Saxton told us. And yeah, it

wasn't actually it was not even a whole year, it was a couple

months. And it wasn't a huge surprise. But we were really

lucky that we lived here because because SF USD was really really

helpful and supportive, and changed his school records even

before it all the legal changes happen and then locked, kept

kept the originals but locked, it locked the record, so only we

can see it. Actually, no, they made one mistake, but but for

the most part, it was it. They did it in one day. Yeah. So they

did, they did stumble and make one mistake in the past couple

of years. But for the most part, they did that. And then the one

thing I wanted to call about the national governing bodies is our

position of privilege in this because to call it out, because

it is really, really different to be a young transgender woman

versus a young transgender man, you know, and Saxton I think is

keenly aware that he went from being a 14 year old, young white

woman to being a 14 year old, young white man, at least in

other people's eyes. He was always a man. But, um, and, and

that that that was far easier in terms of the national governing

body and sport than if he had been male to female athletes. We

they asked to get, you know, there weren't a hormone test

that we had to do or things like that, for him to be able to

compete. And so we were really very fortunate. I didn't mean it

was easy for him to compete, right. Especially emotionally, I

think. And we learned that it was it was a was a it was a very

emotional experience. And it was really mixed in terms of well,

you should tell it more than I should.

But it was there was a lot of dysphoria that kind

of played into when I was racing and kind of how I felt racing.

And so that that really kind of changed. It really changed

racing for me in general, when I started to just be in like, oh,

like, that's why this has been making me uncomfortable or like,

Oh, I really like it when when I have to wear the skin tight suit

while I'm biking. So I'll wear like double layers. And then

when I'm running over double layers to when I just get really

tired, because I'm sweating like alot.

It was 100 degrees. The day that he raced for his

first male race. It was really hot. It was really competitive.

And I was wearing like double layers over my suit

and I didn't really drink a lot of water.

But there was no cones. And then I said,

Yeah, that's a thank you for sharing that because I'm

thinking about you know, it sounds like the administrative

process at USA triathlon was fairly smooth and also in the

school district. But that's not the end of it, right? Like there

are these other components for trans athletes, particularly

maybe that very first race, where they're competing in the

agenda with which they identify and what that might feel like

and having support people around right to either debrief that or

cheer you on. It sounds like that's really important.

Yeah, none of none of the other athletes really

kind of like, knew, and like, I didn't tell anybody. Um, and she

was like, her, my sister, and my stepdad were the only people who

kind of, I guess he knew. And I didn't know anybody there from

past races. I'm actually running races who have just been like,

oh, you're in the male category now? And I'm like, yeah, and but

so yeah, and but there, they were just nobody really knew it

was great. One guy, I think kind of suspected it when we were at

the pool. But like, right before we were about to jump in, but he

didn't really say anything. He actually he actually stuck with

me a little bit on the on the bike in the run, occasionally,

before he passed me, of course. But he was he was really great.

And afterwards, Afterwards, he kind of was just like, like,

good job, man. Like, he kept emphasizing, like, dude, and all

of that. And like guy, and I was like, I was like, thank you,

thank you very much for that.

Did that that felt validating, or it felt

too much.

It felt validating. It was a little

funny. I was kind of like, thank you for the support. Like Thank

you. Thank you. I thank you. And then it was kind of like each

time. That's nice.

Right, right. Yeah. I was wondering,

going back to our earlier conversation of the over

enthusiastic person that wants to be an ally, and just goes way

over the top. But it's certainly Well, I mean, generationally,

right folks, who are your age or younger have grown up in a

completely different environment. That's not to say

it's easy, of course, I don't mean to imply that. But for

people, your mom's age, our age, right? It's just, there's a

different willingness to understand gender as a not a

binary and a more fluid category, right? It's not this,

it's not this rigid, structured piece. And Megan, I think you

have some perspectives on gender, right? gender generally.

That's a pretty broad part of the question. Did

you want to narrow that down? Because

I was I was giving you the floor to

feminists soapbox, but jet gender and sport? How about

that? How about you share some thoughts around? The fact that

sport is so rigidly stuck in a binary?

Well, I, you know, I think about this, I think

about this a lot. And, and you know, and we talked about it a

lot. And I also talked about it in terms of other trans athletes

in terms of non binary athletes. And when we talk about being,

you know, more inclusive and diverse, I absolutely include,

you know, I think one of the things is we get into forums,

and people are talking about being more diverse and

inclusive, and then you bring up trans athletes or non binary and

it's like, it's like, well, that's too hard. We just don't

even know how to deal with that. And, and like, and, and like,

pick a side, and you've got to do this. And, and, and it's and

it's and it's actually not that hard. If you think about it, I

don't like do it asked if I at one point, if I thought that

sports should be gender neutral. And I don't, I don't know that

we're there yet. Because first of all, the minute you even talk

about trans athletes competing, now, there's all these anti anti

trans laws, and there's a lot of fear and, and it's, and it's

like, oh, I just, you know, this is him. This is attacking

women's sports. And that's not what it's doing. I mean, Sport,

Sport has not been inclusive. And, and sport has not been

inclusive to women, and it's becoming more inclusive to

women. But it's not even there yet. And it's not fair and

equal. But equal isn't necessarily even 50/50 equals

everybody. And we have I think that if we're not there yet, we

need to be open, and be thinking about where we're going. Because

it's coming whether we like it or not. If you look at I think

if you're a race director, and you're not asking people their

pronouns, and if you're a race director, and you're not even

considering offering a non gendered category that is an

athlete's choice not mandated. I think you're, I think you should

you should be thinking about it because it's the wave of the

future. I mean, I don't believe that trans athletes should have

their own category. Absolutely not. But I also know that my non

binary athletes may want to race in one gender or another or not

at all, and they just want to race And I think that if we look

at gravel and cyclocross racing, they're paving. Pun intended,

though, but they're paving the way. Because they, you know, I

get a little nervous when it's like, oh, there's this new

category of it's not male or female, and I get a little

nervous because it's like, oh, then we'll just push people

there. And that's can, but, but if if athletes want to race in a

different category, and it's gender neutral, I absolutely

think that's a brilliant, brilliant idea and supportive.

And I think it's, it's where we can and should go. Because it,

it takes that out of it, you know, and I think if triathlon

doesn't think about it, and start and start thinking about

it, I mean, we you mentioned, our age group versus their age

group, and our kids and our kids, most of our kids get this

or not everybody, but our kids get this AR kit, right vendor in

a very different way than we then then we were prescribed.

And if we don't adapt and change, there will be kids that

age, like our sport will sort of become a dinosaur. Because

Because I think that Saxons, I think Sexton's generation and

the generations younger than him, will, they'll pursue other

sports where they feel that they are more welcome, they're

included than that they can really truly be themselves, and

that they can compete on a level playing field. So

that's such a great point that triathlon or

other Endurance Sports will essentially be a dinosaur.

Right?

I hope not, because it's a sport I love right. But

if it but I think any sport that maintain such a risk, like I

think a lot of people are shoring up to protect things and

are, are to protect women's sports to protect the sport or

that sport. And, um, and it's not protecting it, it's actually

making it it's, it's putting a moat around the castle that

doesn't have electricity and plumbing, you know, it's not

modern, it's, it's not gonna, you're not going to be able to

exist in there. If you if you shore up your walls, you really

need to find a way to make it open and welcoming and, or you

will, you know, I sure hope but I sure hope that triathlon is

not a dinosaur, because I have a few more years and left in me.

I keep joking that I will eventually go

to Kona, even if I'm 90, I will eventually race in Kona. But my

whole point is, we want to stay on the cutting edge of the sport

so that we can all see our sport last just as long as we or our

bodies do. So you know, in when I'm 80 or 90, hopefully, I will

see Saxton there, if you so choose, I want us to be there.

And so I think it's interesting, you know, just to think about

that dinosaur piece definitely. I'm also wondering, too, you

know, when it comes to this work, Lisa and I always kind of

put our armor on to get ready for the resistors. Right, the

people that you know, they're going to give every single what

I call PLE every perfectly logical explanation why

something wouldn't work shouldn't work, why it's going

to be a problem with it. Well, what if someone says that

they're one thing, but they're really another because they want

the competitive advantage, etc? How do you all respond to the

people that are resistant because we know they're out

there? Hopefully, none of them are listeners of this podcast.

But let's let's give them a rationale as to why we should

think through these really creative, innovative and many of

them easy ways to make triathlon more inclusive. What would you

say to a resistor?

Um, well, I personally say like, yeah,

totally, I went through surgery and hormones and coming out to

all of my friends and family, just so I can race in the male

division where I kind of have a bit of a disadvantage, because I

am smaller and don't really have that much muscle mass compared

to the 18 year old guys that I race against. And yeah, and

trans women go through the exact same thing where they go higher

up in the murder statistics, just because they are who they

are just so they can race with women and win medals because

that's totally worth it and have to take hormones that decrease

their performance. Yeah, in order to be able to compete and

they lose muscle mass and they will go through, like mood

swings that they don't even know are happening sometimes. And so

it's very scary for everybody.

Yeah, I would say similarly, you know, when you

it's, it's about it's also about it's about listening and

listening to those perfectly logical answers. And then, you

know, it's once again, it's like you have to gauge who you're

talking to and if they're willing to have a conversation

and willing to learn, like, do they want to listen and learn.

And that's when it's, that's when it's good to engage in

conversation. And I think that I know, even some professional

athletes who I've had this conversation with who initially

were like, I'm not sure how I feel, because this is my

livelihood. And I've been able to have been able over time to

share things with them, and statistics and reality, and now

have them very happily. And something I'm really proud of is

like they're now sharing stories, and sharing trans

stories and trans and support for trans athletes were a year

ago, in an interview, they were not sure. And that's those are

the conversations worth having. Because here's the thing, trans

athletes, I think, this year, we're going to see at the

Olympics, we're going to, we're going to see some of our first

out openly trans athletes competing, and it's going to be

really interesting. But keep in mind, the IOC has had trans

policy has had policies about transgender athletes

participating for almost 25 years. And the number of trans

athletes who have stolen medals, or you know, who are who are

pretending to be trans or stolen medals or whatever is is

literally zero, the number of college scholarships that like

Saxton said that, that males who are pretending to be females

have stolen from female athletes is also zero. So it's, it's

creating problems that don't exist, and miseducation, to

scare people, and to have them sort of shore up and protect

what they think are things are being attacked. And as often

happens, it's it's genuinely people from places of privilege

that are spreading misinformation, and causing

people who are, who don't feel like they're in a position of

privilege to kind of try to hold on to the few privileges that

they have. And I also think that transphobia, especially in

sport, is rooted very deeply in misogony.

Yes,

I can't compete, like, like, men are going to

come and take with like, it's a million men being it, there are

women who are very concerned about this, who I think, to me

are, are buying the hype. But but it generally is men who are

suddenly protecting women's sports who have never done a

damn thing for women's sports ever. Right? Yeah. and telling

me I need and telling me in their white knight suits that I

need to be protected, because I'm weak, and inferior. And, you

know, I'm a middle to back of the packer. But I'm competing

against myself. And I, I'm not I don't I don't feel intimidated

or scared to compete against men. And I don't think, you

know, female athletes should either. And I think as, as

you've seen, with Title Nine, the gap between women's

performance is, is closing it between men's and women's

performance. And if you look at ultra runners and ultra

distances, women are outperforming men all the time,

and maybe you know, that we're different. And we have different

strengths and weaknesses. And we're not less than, and I just

I get so fed up with that protection that people think we

need.

Well i'm i'm waiting to see we've seen it

happen or get close to happening when it was at Ironman World

Championships, but in other races as well, where even the

photography or the videography is not set up for women speed.

So the fact that Oh, we're anticipating because the women's

pack started an hour and a half later that, Oh, no, that woman

on that bike might catch up with that guy. So get your camera's

ready people, because she's on the way, you know. And so I just

think it's interesting how it's embedded in the entire system.

But I wanted to go back with you to what you said before, you

know, I think it's really important for us to not feed

into what I call fiction narratives where people just

create this whole story with no facts at all. No one's stolen

any metals from anyone. And for us, and for listeners to this

podcast, we really want to prepare people to interrupt

those fiction narratives. It's just simply not true. The data

doesn't support it. professional organizations don't support it,

our membership organizations don't support it. It is pure

myth busting out here. Like truly people are walking around

with these myths that you're bringing up here.

And and you got to remember though, that, like I

said, it's like having the conversations with the people

that are open and willing to listen because I've had that

mythbusting conversation with athletes were like, well,

Ironman should do this or USAT should do that. Or and it's like

Yeah, they they actually have they have, they have policies,

and they've done a lot of work on this. And they follow the IOC

recommendations. And and that was based on science. And still

people are like, Yeah, but Ironman need to do something.

And it's like, Did you just miss that entire conversation that I

just said that they they've been following the science, they've

been working with the IOC, and they've had policies for 20

years. They are doing something. And you're, and that's so yeah.

And and I just, I'm with you on that. I like I like the fiction

narrative topic, because and then you kind of figure out, oh,

but you're a fan of fiction. So I'm not going to win here. So

A lot of people don't really use Google as much

as they should, when doing their own research on kind of just

everything that relates to transact weights. They think

that checkout and well, I guess, every social media app, other

than Google is a very viable source.

Yeah, I mean, do your own research,

right, because that's the thing we've talked about a lot is that

people who have a privileged identity, so if that's a white

person, right, they shouldn't be relying on communities of color

to educate them. And so a cisgender person, so I don't

think we gave that definition naturally. But cisgender is

someone whose gender identity matches the gender that they

were assigned at birth. And, um, you know, they don't, I've lost

my train of thought after you get to that definition. What was

I going to say?

It's late on the east coast Lisa.

I don't really have an excuse, I don't

really have an excuse. So, okay, well, maybe that so will come

back to me. But I appreciate what I do want to say is I

appreciate your both of you identifying kind of that

misogyny and sexism that underscores so much of

transphobia that trans athletes experience, right, this rigid

belief that if someone is assigned female, they are

therefore a woman, they are therefore heterosexual, right?

And they therefore behave in this way, and behaving in this

way is weaker, weaker than men, and thus, trans women have an

unfair advantage. And it's all rooted in that. So coming back

to systems coming back to systems. So, okay, I think we

should wrap up. But I don't want to go without

I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't

want. I have so much more to learn. This is scratching the

surface.

Yes. Um, I would love to hear from both of

you, if you feel willing to share, we have a number of

parents, relatives, close family friends, right? Who perhaps are

struggling or don't know how best to support a young person

in their life, who is coming forward with their true gender

identity and, and wanting to articulate that, you know, so as

a mom as a son, do you have any advice or tips from kind of both

of your perspectives about how, how parents, family members,

guardians can be most supportive?

Well, I will, personally, I would say, kind of

let your kid do their own research on how they identify,

like, don't try and be like, Oh, I think like, oh, maybe this

like might be a phase or don't, don't say that. Like, even if it

is don't say it, because you're just you're just kind of

demeaning how they feel, you need to, you need to just sit

back and watch them grow and watch them kind of figure out

who they are as a person. And that's kind of like the most

that you can do is just let them be themselves. Don't try and

shove them into a little corner of being like, oh, we're this

we're that we're this like, like, if you're going to a

family function, and they want to wear something, let them wear

it, like, let them express how they are, how they feel. Let

them use whatever pronouns they want, or go by any name that

they want, when they're out in public. Like, just let them be

themselves.

I would say it goes back to what we were talking

about before about listening and learning, and I love you so

much. I'm really proud of so um, but so what I was saying is, a

lot of times as a parent, there's, you know, first of all,

I think there's this protective mama bear thing, which I have,

which now just doesn't include my child that includes all trans

kids. I'm pretty protective about all trans kids now. But

it's listening and letting them be themselves and figure it out

as they figure it out. And it's not a it's not it's so not about

me. And about like, like, I hear people, I see things where

people are talking about like, well, it's hard for me to

remember. And it's hard for me to remember the new name. And

it's, it's gonna be hard for grandma. And it's like, it's

actually not that hard. And it's not about you. And I think that

the turning points for us were when we first started, it was

like, okay, all of the research, all of the science, all of the

books, all of the, you know, all of the support groups that we

can join and learn about and how we can be supportive. And, you

know, I think the first things were the stats about suicide,

and, and kids who don't feel heard or recognized or accepted.

And, um, and it scared the bejesus out of me. And that's

the nice words I can find. But, and so it became really

important to, to find the right words when you don't have them.

And, and that was really about, like, tell me what you need

telling me what to do. And, but don't but but know you don't

have to correct me when I get the name wrong. And you don't

have to, it's not your job to tell to for me to be better.

It's my job for me to be better. And I think it's the same way,

just when you were talking about being a good ally, it's the same

way in terms of being a good parent. And, and it's it's your

lucky parent when your kids get to teach you every day. So and I

think you mentioned the one thing I wanted to make sure I

talked about was, you mentioned it about the trans legislation

happening. There's a lot of anti trans legislation going on right

now. It's pretty disturbing. Florida just had a new anti

trans bill that was signed on the first day of Pride Month,

which is this month, and but I will leave, leave it on a

positive and that if you do want to educate yourself about trans

youth and sport, I highly recommend a documentary, which

is now on Hulu called Changing the Game. And it just came out

on Hulu this month. So you can go watch it for free. And if you

can get through that thing without crying and hugging your

kids, I don't know what kind of I mean, I like I don't know, I

couldn't watch it without crying. And I'm wanting to hug

every trans kid I've ever met. So it's just really moving. And

I think that it's a good place to start. Just to humanize the

topic for you. So if this kid isn't cute enough, and

convincing enough to make you want to educate yourself.

Oh, super convincing, super

convincing. So we already know, Lisa, we have some homework to

do. Hopefully, we will see Saxton soon enough. So we can

ask for a big ol hug of thanks for being on our podcast, if you

don't mind. But Lisa, I think we got a lot of good information. I

think we need to practice our deep listening skills. Sometimes

we hear people but we're not listening to them. So I'm really

appreciative of how you all just kind of hammered that home to us

that hey, let's let's sit back let's let's not be too eager

here. But definitely be open and willing to be led, be led by

folks to tell us what they need and what they want in the right

timing. So thank you so much for sharing your experience. Lisa, I

cannot believe how lucky we were to get both of them on this

podcast. How cool is that?

Super cool. And I just want to echo Shauna

and deep gratitude for you sharing a pot of yourselves with

us today. I hope that our listeners get a ton out of it

because I know that I did. And this is a journey. And this was

35 minutes, right and there's a lot more to discuss and there's

a lot more to do so. Please go out and educate yourselves.

Please make a difference because it's really important.

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Email us at info at unfazed podcast calm and

find us on social at try to defy at Dr. Gold speaks or at

outspoken women and try.

I'm Lisa. I'm Shauna thanks for

listening. Stay unfazed folks. See you next time.