Yes, we have T.V. The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, season 2 is here and so are we. I'm back with Nick, from The Intervention podcast for some LOTR content. We reflect on our impressions of the first season and discuss character arcs in the second season, particularly Galadriel and ****, exploring the moral complexities of their roles.

We highlight the impressive production values and the political intrigue surrounding Numenor, while also analyzing the series' balance between familiar tropes and new storytelling. As we speculate on future developments, we delve into themes of power and moral choices that permeate the narrative, enriching our experience as viewers.

The Intervention podcast:

https://twitter.com/intervenepod

Instagram: @intervention_pod

Email: interventionpod@gmail.com

Left of the Projector Links

https://www.patreon.com/LeftoftheProjectorPod

https://boxd.it/5T9O1

https://leftoftheprojector.com

https://instagram.com/leftoftheprojector

http://tiktok.com/@leftoftheprojectorpod

https://www.threads.net/@leftoftheprojector

Evan Intro: Hello and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host Evan,

Evan Intro: back again with another film discussion from the left.

Evan Intro: You can follow and listen to the show on all platforms at leftoftheprojectorpod.

Evan Intro: It would be greatly appreciated if you could go there, subscribe,

Evan Intro: and leave a review and a rating.

Evan Intro: You know, all those algorithm type things.

Evan Intro: You can also support the show at patreon.com slash leftoftheprojectorpod.

Evan Intro: This week we dive into, not a movie, but television. My friend Nick from The

Evan Intro: Intervention Podcast joins me for another Lord of the Rings content episode.

Evan Intro: His last time on was for the Hobbit trilogy.

Evan Intro: This time we are discussing episodes one through three of the second season

Evan Intro: of The Rings of Power, which you can watch on Amazon or perhaps in other ways. Wink, wink.

Evan Intro: So we decided to dive into the season two, talk about a couple episodes.

Evan Intro: We'll probably do another episode recapping and discussing episodes four through

Evan Intro: seven, and then probably one final episode discussing the finale.

Evan Intro: So for anyone who doesn't know, this is the second season of this Amazon show,

Evan Intro: bringing us back to the second age of Middle Earth.

Evan Intro: So I hope you enjoy this deviation from the norm where we talk about TV with Nick.

Evan Intro: Sit back in your seats, get something to eat, watch this movie,

Evan Intro: don't look the kid you see.

Evan: Thank you.

Evan: All right, well, this week on the show, we're doing something a little bit different.

Evan: We are going to talk about a TV show for only the second time ever.

Evan: And back on the show for more Lord of the Rings content, I have Nick from Intervention

Evan: Podcast. Thanks for coming on, Nick.

Nick: Yeah, pulling me out of retirement to talk about the Lord of the Rings.

Nick: No, I'm just joking. I don't think I'm retired from the podcast yet,

Nick: but we haven't recorded in a while. So hope y'all are doing well.

Evan: Well, that's okay. I mean, the last time I think, I don't even remember the

Evan: last time we had recorded, but we had, you can go back and listen to three episodes

Evan: on Lord of the Rings, which Nick was not on, but we did talk about the lesser trilogy, The Hobbit.

Evan: But you mentioned, you asked me if I'd seen the new season yet,

Evan: because it was just dropping.

Evan: And I thought, well, you know, maybe we should come on and give our gripes about

Evan: the Lord Lord of the Rings, Rings of Power, which is in its second season,

Evan: just came out last week on the Jeff Bezos platform.

Evan: But what did you think, I guess before we talk about season two,

Evan: what did you think about the first season?

Evan: I guess generally, I mean, you can also mention the things, the issues you have

Evan: with it, but like as a show, like, I mean, what do you think?

Nick: Yeah, I mean, generally positive, I guess is the way. And I really,

Nick: I think I had to get myself in the frame of mind to view it that way.

Nick: Cause like, as you know, I'm like a lore freak. Like it's the probably the nerdiest part about me.

Nick: Um said I love Lord of the Rings and I've read like the Silmarillion a bunch

Nick: of times I think I probably said that on the Hobbit episode,

Nick: So I think once I was able to kind of dissociate that part of my personality

Nick: and just sit down and just actually try to enjoy the show for what it was like,

Nick: there's still cringy shit about it and problems that I have with it.

Nick: But like, it's generally enjoyable.

Nick: You know what I mean? And so I think I'm enjoying this season a little bit more

Nick: because I'm coming in with that same kind of mindset of like,

Nick: I'm not expecting too, too much in terms of adherence to the lore.

Nick: And I get there needs to be changes for TV to make it actually viewable and

Nick: stuff, but I'm not letting those

Nick: things really agitate me unless they're particularly egregious, I think.

Evan: Yeah. I mean, I think for anyone, even whether you're just a Lord of the Rings

Evan: novice, you just like TV show, you like fantasy, it has something to be said

Evan: about the production value.

Evan: I mean, they spent, I think, something like $60 million per episode on the first

Evan: season. I don't even know how much the second season, but a lot of money.

Evan: A lot of money went into this. And you you can see that because it looks pretty

Evan: good as far as just a visual show.

Evan: And it's funny, I felt the same way when I watched the first season,

Evan: the first couple episodes, I'm like, I don't know, this is kind of weird.

Evan: And then I just thought, you know what, if I just can enjoy this as a fantasy

Evan: TV show that happens to include like really cool characters from the Tolkien

Evan: universe, I guess, can that just be good enough for me? And I think so, right?

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I think that's the best way to do it. Don't get too bogged down in it.

Nick: I mean, And you can if you want, but I've just made that decision to try to

Nick: enjoy it and like actually carve out like a little bit of space and like,

Nick: especially with all the shit going on right now, like,

Nick: you know, and I don't want to get into that too much, but like,

Nick: you know, I just want to have one little space, you know, uh,

Nick: just chill i guess.

Evan: Yeah well i mean that's the thing well i mean it does seem like we're

Evan: entering like a new era of lord of the rings content

Evan: we have this tv show there's going to be a new animated movie the end of this

Evan: year and then another movie i think in 2026 the new hobbit not a hobbit the

Evan: new um gollum movie which i don't know i mean i'm i'm glad that that's that

Evan: i'm more excited for because peter jackson's involved in it whereas this is

Evan: just kind of like a separate thing but But yeah,

Evan: I mean, for anyone who hasn't watched this first season,

Evan: there will be, you know, things we'll talk about in season two,

Evan: episodes one through three, which have aired as I'm airing this.

Evan: I'll be releasing this pretty soon after this. So I don't think the fourth episode will come out yet.

Evan: But in the first season, again, if you don't know the, you know,

Evan: it's essentially taking you back to the beginning of the second age.

Evan: We have the defeat of Morgoth. And then we kind of, you know,

Evan: see kind of how things go from there.

Evan: We get a few different perspectives we have uh numenor we

Evan: have the elves we have the what

Evan: we learned at the end of season one is gandalf you know coming back but you

Evan: know unaware of who he is and all these different the hobbits who are called

Evan: what do they call them in this the the harfoots the harfoots yeah sorry yeah

Evan: i'm gonna have to defer to you on more of the uh very specifics because i'm

Evan: gonna i thought i was gonna.

Nick: Blink because that's like a show thing it sounds Sounds like it's like a Hobbit

Nick: family name or something, but maybe that's their clan. I'm not sure.

Evan: Right. Yeah. That's actually, yeah. We'll try not to get bogged down too much,

Evan: but you feel free to interject any, uh, bit of failures on there on the lore of this show,

Evan: because I've only read the similar really in part of the way through,

Evan: as I'll admit here, I've, I need to, uh, complete that, that journey as I'll

Evan: bring the act actually energy.

Nick: Is that what you want?

Evan: Yes. You need to, uh, Tolkien, Tolkien's way in everyone.

Nick: Yeah.

Evan: But yeah, so you have all that, you have the elves, and you have,

Evan: I mean, really, you have all the different clans and all the different groups.

Evan: And the first season is, you know, it's pretty good. It's pretty fun.

Evan: It kind of culminates with learning that Sauron is taking, you know,

Evan: a human form, and he's tricked people into creating several rings for the elves.

Evan: Elves and that was actually one of the things that i found as a you know one

Evan: of the many things that are kind of out of order is as far as as far as i know

Evan: you can correct me if i'm wrong the elves did not get the rings first wasn't it the humans yeah.

Nick: Um i don't know now that i'm thinking about it because the show's actually kind

Nick: of confusing me um i just think in general and just to kind of i guess deflect

Nick: and obfuscate because i don't actually know a little bit um the whole timeline

Nick: line is kind of compressed right like,

Nick: At the time of the Forging of the Rings, like, the characters,

Nick: like, especially, like, the human characters, like, Isildur and even his father,

Nick: Elendil, like, are not even going to be born for, like, a few hundred more years,

Nick: you know, like, when this all kind of starts out.

Nick: But, like, I get it, right? So, they have to compress things.

Nick: They have to make it make sense. And, you know, for what it is, I think it's fine.

Evan: Yeah, that's one of the, I was going to mention that too. So they have the,

Evan: you know, Isildur coming from Numenor.

Evan: And this is, you know, as far as I understand, as you said, I think I had it

Evan: pulled up the timeline of when they were born, but now I don't have that tab open.

Evan: But like you said, it's a couple hundred years later, but assuming they want

Evan: to probably do a large portion of the whole second age in, well,

Evan: I don't know, four seasons.

Evan: I don't know how many seasons they'll get of this. They probably want to get

Evan: all the way to where, you know, the beginning of the Lord of the Rings story

Evan: takes you where Isildur is going to kill Sauron.

Evan: So they have to get there eventually. And so they have to be together at, you know, on this show.

Evan: You know, again, I don't blame them for that. This is, you know,

Evan: the one thing I will say about this show, unlike our last discussion on The

Evan: Hobbit, they didn't interject a bunch of, you know, annoying love triangles

Evan: like they did in other ones.

Evan: There is a little bit of romance-y stuff, but not as much as the other ones. I don't know.

Nick: Yeah, no, I agree with that. I mean, there still is that there.

Nick: And I guess we'll see where, like, with the last episode with the Isildur thing.

Nick: But, like, that character seems kind of cool, you know? Not that, like, what was her name?

Nick: Tariel wasn't, like, a cool character, but it was just, like,

Nick: so contrived, you know? That is something I think that,

Nick: irks me because in the same way i think that in the hobbit they were trying to use that uh,

Nick: tariel character and her relationship with is it

Nick: keely yeah like they call back to like the

Nick: aragorn arwen kind of thing you know but it

Nick: was more of in like a hokey kind of way like i feel like they do

Nick: so much of this little like even if it's not

Nick: like a big big plot line like that or side

Nick: arc whatever you want to call it just like little moments that

Nick: like they're like you know we're doing right we're still in the lord of the rings

Nick: you remember when we kind of said something similar in you know

Nick: the original trilogy you know and like it's just

Nick: it's not even line for line sometimes but like even when like an episode one

Nick: gladio goes like and she's referring to sauron and she says he's no man right

Nick: and i know it's like a completely different context but like it's still kind

Nick: of that cringy callback and it's like you don't need to do it so much yeah.

Evan: We don't actually wonder i actually don't know the answer to this do they have

Evan: that do they have um because Because I know there's different rights involved

Evan: in what, you know, the Tolkien estate has let people use.

Evan: I wonder if it's they couldn't use lines directly.

Evan: So that's why they're doing it this way. Or maybe they're doing,

Evan: as you said, like a callback to fans of the movies.

Evan: And I think it's directly for people who like the movies, but maybe aren't necessarily

Evan: huge fans of Lord of the Rings in the same way.

Evan: Maybe you are, you know, so it's this is, oh, I saw the movie back, you know, 15 years ago.

Evan: Now I'm going to hear a little nod to it. Like, I just saw the recent Alien

Evan: movie and they did the same thing where they.

Evan: Took lines from the original Alien to the ninth installment.

Evan: And like, yeah, it's cool for a nod, but you know what? Just make your own new shit.

Nick: You know? Yeah. It's a cool setting. It's a cool universe.

Nick: I think one thing they've done

Nick: well is like largely I think the characters and the acting is very good.

Evan: It is. I will say that. Yeah. And that's weird talking, I think,

Evan: before I started recording or maybe not, is that there aren't a lot of big name

Evan: actors that I've seen in other things.

Evan: And maybe you said it was actually kind of good. And actually reminds me a little

Evan: bit of, well, for anyone.

Evan: So i've mentioned to you that a lot of the production

Evan: value is very reminiscent of game of thrones obviously it's not the same kind

Evan: of universe at all but it seems like they're kind of using that as maybe their

Evan: model of you know this big fantasy show that's expansive and all this and there

Evan: were some big name actors i guess so i like that they went with the small people

Evan: you know give people a chance.

Nick: Oh definitely and they've all been pretty good like even like

Nick: for the way that i may have a problem with

Nick: like some of the characters like i one thing i still can't get

Nick: over is like galadriel's like perceived age

Nick: and maturity in this and i i guess

Nick: again it's one of these things i'm coming to accept and just try to to

Nick: roll with but it still bothers me because like she's older

Nick: than like gil gil gil gallad and elrond by

Nick: like a lot um in in

Nick: the actual canon and she's already like one of the wisest people in the world

Nick: at this point but like i get it because like they do kind of show in the lord

Nick: of the rings that she's kind of drawn by this power it could be tempted so i

Nick: guess if i'm being fair like it is an interesting way to kind of show that aspect

Nick: of her personality and make her an interesting character well.

Evan: They somehow you somehow almost have to pretend that the lord of the rings doesn't

Evan: exist in some sense like we're,

Evan: imagining like this that this had come out before those like you're learning

Evan: about all these things you know it would have maybe influenced how the lord

Evan: of the rings was made or how peter jackson And then in reverse,

Evan: you're kind of stuck with, we already know what Tolkien wrote in his books and what's in the movies.

Evan: They're just not going to give you exactly that because...

Nick: Oh, go ahead, sorry.

Evan: No, that's it, yeah, yeah.

Nick: Yeah, no, and to your point that, like, a lot of this is probably written for movie watchers.

Nick: I mean, both, but, like, definitely appealing to that.

Nick: So that's, I don't know, that seems to be, and even reading some things that,

Nick: what's the actress that plays Galadriel's name? Morfydd? Morfydd Clark?

Evan: Morfydd Clark, yeah.

Nick: Yeah. It seemed like when she was referencing some of, like,

Nick: the character beats that she was referring to the movies. movies and again some

Nick: of that stuff with Galadriel actually.

Evan: Matched up pretty.

Nick: Closely but maybe they are you know operating under that assumption that like

Nick: most people are going to interpret this in the same canon as the movies you know.

Evan: Yeah I guess it's kind of hard to uh to I will say like I think she plays Galadriel

Evan: really well whether or not you like you know maybe what they've done with the

Evan: character I think it's pretty good I think I think you mentioned to me too that

Evan: in we learn We have the guy, Charlie Vickers plays the Sauron character.

Evan: He doesn't have the same name throughout the first season. We learn at the end who he is.

Evan: We learn that he's been deceiving Galadriel and the elves and everyone this

Evan: whole time to get them to do what they say in Lord of the Rings,

Evan: which is to make all the various rings.

Evan: The ring is in the title.

Evan: It's called the Rings of Power, everyone. So it's going to be about rings.

Evan: But yeah, so he's really good, I think. His character is really good.

Evan: The actor, I mean, Charlie Vickers is good.

Evan: And I think that they did a good job with his arc.

Evan: And I know we're not exactly talking about season two, but we kind of where

Evan: we leave off at the end of the first season is they've made the rings for the elves, the three rings.

Evan: And we learn who Thauron is, and we know who Gandalf is, but we don't know how

Evan: they're all going to kind of come together.

Evan: Other and then the opening of this of the second season is you know what to

Evan: do with these rings should the elves use them to save their you know essentially

Evan: their live or their livelihood on in middle earth so i think it's kind of cool

Evan: you know i don't i don't want to you know

Evan: someone out there way you know you may or anyone may think it's a little bit

Evan: hokey but i think it works i don't know.

Nick: I know i i agree that it works i mean i

Nick: think they kind of show that like these rings were

Nick: crafted under the influence of sauron so

Nick: like there's reason and i think mostly by like elrond to

Nick: show some skepticism towards that and like

Nick: skepticism towards like the power that they grant right

Nick: and which is you know that's the theme of the whole thing so i'm really

Nick: cool with that um but and i

Nick: think also in this episode like it opens with the

Nick: this this opens with like the killing of the original quote-unquote

Nick: saron right by that yeah that was pretty cool yeah yeah

Nick: and like just to your point like i don't even

Nick: really have a problem with them doing the whole how brand thing um just

Nick: because i think that opening scene and just

Nick: the characterization throughout the whole and like the changes that we see

Nick: with him even in the first three episodes of this show like one of saran's like

Nick: really cool like in notable powers that like he's like a shapeshifter and he

Nick: can assume all these different shapes and like so he has that power and until

Nick: like he forges the ring and gets kind of defeated like he does you know he has

Nick: that power which he doesn't have it after that but um yeah.

Evan: And yeah and well i thought yeah the first the opening of the first episode

Evan: which you talked about and then i thought the episode the the uh,

Evan: the oh gosh what was i going to mention um no yeah maybe that's just the first episode yeah,

Evan: right the first episode is kind of giving you uh how did

Evan: he be how did he become connected with galadriel to

Evan: begin with how did they put them like on the path together and not

Evan: only does it have his shape-shifting power it shows kind of his ability for

Evan: manipulation of people right like especially so in

Evan: the first uh whole season he's manipulating galadriel into

Evan: kind of basically doing whatever he wants and now she

Evan: realizes you know in the second and third

Evan: episodes well maybe i can't go see him again

Evan: because he can do the same thing again and

Evan: so she tries to get uh what is it um what's his name uh elrond to come with

Evan: him the second time when they go to see him but then the other thing i was going

Evan: to mention is that he then changes form again where he's now you know working

Evan: to get more rings made and he's you know getting uh calibrindor is that his name calibrindor.

Evan: To convince he's the master ringmaker and he's now inserted himself much further

Evan: and you now can see he's crafting these rings to not just to help them but essentially

Evan: to destroy everyone because we know what happens in the future is that these rings do not,

Evan: they don't bode well for anyone living in any of these lands Khazad-dun is basically

Evan: destroyed because of their probably,

Evan: how does it go in the the you know in the lore of how does uh it become destroyed

Evan: or how do they kind of what's the downfall there do you know.

Nick: Yeah i mean so the downfall is really when they um

Nick: encountered the balrog right who was buried under there

Nick: um and it's implied that like they just kept like going after all the reaches

Nick: right like they dug too greedily and they dug too deep right like the line from

Nick: saruman um right so i think the connection and i'm speculating at this point

Nick: but we see in episode three that they begin the forging of the rings,

Nick: of the dwarven rings, right? And like,

Nick: speculate because it said that the dwarven rings basically like

Nick: they had the ability to breed great hordes of wealth

Nick: but like it also so sauron couldn't really influence

Nick: the dwarves all that much it was just like kind of i think exacerbated some

Nick: of their worst tendencies like their stubbornness and their greed so my thinking

Nick: is is that the ring he's gonna get is gonna drive them to continue to look for

Nick: more mithril and then they're gonna encounter the balrog and i think

Nick: it's in the trailer right that we see the balrog at some point but i think that's

Nick: the connection that we're gonna say well.

Evan: I don't know actually i wonder if because they made a very clear point of showing

Evan: sauron or i guess his name now is anatar his you.

Nick: Know he's now.

Evan: Kind of this uh kind of to trick calibram more he takes the mithril from the.

Nick: Dwarves and.

Evan: Puts it in so i assume that he's putting some kind of something.

Nick: To increase.

Evan: Like so i think what you did you You basically just said like it's to increase

Evan: their, you know, their greed towards Mithril and thinking like,

Evan: oh, if we get more Mithril, maybe they'll make us more rings.

Evan: And it's kind of like this and never ending that he just created capitalism

Evan: for the dwarves, basically.

Nick: Yeah, I mean, they were just doing mercantilism prior to. But no.

Nick: So, yeah, they did make like a really explicit point to show him like dropping

Nick: that in like that. He touched it. Right.

Nick: And I think that's a difference between Mithril.

Nick: Elven rings because i don't know if you ever touched it i'd have to go

Nick: back and re-watch it you know what i mean so like that's showing explicitly

Nick: like his influence is going into these what i was saying is that like in the

Nick: same way like his his hand is going to be in with the men right and the men

Nick: turn into the ring rates that they ultimately give the rings to the dwarves

Nick: don't necessarily they're not like that corruptible by them but like his influence

Nick: is still there obviously yeah.

Evan: It's i mean it's very explicit in the movies and in the books that the The men

Evan: are the ones that are very corruptible.

Evan: But I thought another thing that I, like I, a couple of the notes that I wrote

Evan: down was, you know, at one point when they're kind of deciding whether,

Evan: when Elrond is like kind of taking the rings and he's kind of gone and hiding.

Evan: I think that's in the second episode.

Evan: They, you know, he doesn't, he goes to one of his sort of mentors or one of

Evan: the eldest elves, Sidran or Sirden, Sirden? Sirden?

Nick: Círdan, yeah.

Evan: Yeah, Kyrden, who's, you know, one of the eldest, eldest elves,

Evan: and he's, you know, basically convinces him that he should, you know,

Evan: that it's worthy, you know, after first deciding, well, maybe it's not a good idea.

Evan: Things like, okay, well, maybe if they're in the hands of people who are good

Evan: hearted, you know, the elves are have, you know, good intentions in mind,

Evan: they can handle the power of the rings.

Evan: But if they're in the hand of Sauron, he would do bad things.

Evan: The first thing I could think of is, back when I discussed the first original

Evan: trilogy, is kind of how that sounds like a very liberal take on it.

Evan: Like, oh, we can hold fascism away by doing our way of things. And I don't know.

Nick: It's the social democracy path forward.

Evan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know. That's basically what we kind of came to in the first ones.

Evan: Hungry Rye and I had done the first ones. And yeah, I don't know.

Evan: Maybe it's just I can't get that you out of my head.

Evan: Probably the average person watching this wouldn't think that.

Evan: They'd be like, oh, the elves are just good people.

Evan: They're very old and they're wise. I mean, I guess those things are true.

Evan: But we can see they are corruptible because Celebrinborn is already now corrupted by Sauron.

Evan: You know, he's lying to his king and doing all these things that he wouldn't normally do.

Evan: And he's like, are you sure you want to do that? And he's like,

Evan: yes, yes. We need to, I have this power.

Evan: I want to use it. And it's very clear that shit's all going to go bad, as we all know.

Nick: No, yeah. And like one thing I think I do appreciate is

Nick: the kind of shades of gray that they introduce into

Nick: like the different characters and even like the different races

Nick: you know at some level i think tolkien kind of

Nick: unfairly often gets the criticism that you know everything is kind of binary

Nick: good and bad when that was never true you know what i mean like there was you

Nick: know there was corruptible elves always and like even mentions and i think this

Nick: actually gets characterized pretty well that like zaron has kind of like a struggle

Nick: especially after the fall of morgoth where he was like,

Nick: repenting like and actually doing good and i think we kind of see that and especially season

Nick: one i think we're seeing him completely you know eliminate

Nick: any graspings towards that at this point

Nick: he's just full mask off yeah yeah but even like the orcs are kind of interesting

Nick: to me and that it seems like they're trying to make them at least like somewhat

Nick: sympathetic i don't and humanize them i guess a little bit like we see orc families

Nick: and like they're just to believe that like they're just trying to create some

Nick: kind of like safe space for themselves i.

Evan: I think in the third episode, at one point, they asked, like,

Evan: oh, you know, do we, I think they asked Adar, like, oh, why do we have to go to war again?

Evan: Why can't we just, we have this base now, we want a war, we have some land, why can't we just live?

Evan: And he's, oh, we have to, you know, defeat the evil of Sauron because,

Evan: I mean, he doesn't really know that Sauron exists anymore, but maybe he,

Evan: you know, it's like this never-ending war.

Evan: He's got to just do some Middle-earth imperialism because, you know, that's what he does.

Evan: But the orcs do seem to want to just live their lives.

Evan: I mean, they're not, and so here's the thing. Here's a question.

Evan: I saw something or someone say that it's not obvious from this show that Sauron

Evan: actually wanted to maybe, when he's killed and his body is, you know,

Evan: his old body is destroyed.

Evan: He actually did want to like destroy and take over the call of Middle-earth.

Evan: Like, was that his plan, do you think, at that time?

Evan: Or is it more of just, I want to just be this, you know, lord? I don't know.

Nick: Know yeah so i mean that would have been like i think the

Nick: time like that i was just mentioning where like sauron is considering

Nick: like basically okay got it amends with the gods

Nick: and everything but i guess like how it's ultimately like

Nick: one he's too ashamed to do that right two he's too drawn by the power and like

Nick: they frame his power and i think this is always something interesting to talk

Nick: about especially with respect to capitalism because that's another conclusion

Nick: that i've come to like whether you know tolkien knew it or not like he was critiquing

Nick: industrial capitalism in some way,

Nick: especially with the environmental lens. Anyway, I don't want to get too far afield.

Nick: But like Sauron's kind of ultimate downfall in terms of what he wanted to see

Nick: was like he wanted to spring like order and structure to the world,

Nick: but he believed that he was like the only one that would be able to do it.

Nick: Like nobody in the world, not the elves, not the dwarves, like maybe he could

Nick: work more with the elves, but certainly not the men had the capability to actually

Nick: make a structured, ordered, you know, quote-unquote perfect world.

Evan: It would have been really sucky if he had said, well, isn't Donald Trump's like

Evan: the, I don't know, from his first where he goes, like, I alone can fix it.

Evan: Like, that's Sauron, right? He's like, I alone can fix everything.

Evan: You know, basically, my version of fascism would be good and great because,

Evan: you know, I would be in charge and I could control everything.

Evan: But no, but I think your comment about the Tolkien and the critiquing of industrial capitalism,

Evan: I know that's not necessarily relevant specifically to these things,

Evan: but that would be, I think, did you talk about that on your episode on,

Evan: you did an episode on your podcast.

Evan: I think it was one of the first ones I found. I think you talked about that, if I recall.

Nick: Yeah, we got into that quite a bit on that episode.

Nick: Because we were talking more about the books, I think. or no yeah just tolkien

Nick: in general it was just tolkien in general.

Evan: Yeah it was more of a tolkien episode so just.

Nick: Kind of looking at his writings and his life and how that influenced it and

Nick: like what we could glean from it as communist you know.

Evan: Yeah it'll be interesting in the future to do kind of

Evan: like a i don't know like a second part of that sort of

Evan: thing i need i read the reread the books i guess

Evan: for those episodes a year ago but i

Evan: need to maybe i need to read a little more uh other content and

Evan: then we could do some other um other things but

Evan: i guess one of the other plots we didn't talk about much at

Evan: all is like on numenor with you know the the queen

Evan: queen region who had come to you know middle earth to fight and then they you

Evan: know return home and i don't know i don't know is that much about numenor except

Evan: we know eventually that it's completely also destroyed but do you like i don't

Evan: know i'm not as that that plot to me feels very much the most like lord of Lord of the Rings,

Evan: like Game of Thrones-y where there's, you know, political plotting and fights over the queen,

Evan: you know, who's going to be queen or king and brothers and, you know,

Evan: planteers and all this nonsense.

Evan: And I don't know, that to me is like the least interesting one. I don't know. Yeah.

Nick: And I think that one really does suffer from this idea of like a more condensed

Nick: timeline because things are happening so fast and it's hard to keep track of who the people are.

Nick: You know, I think broadly there is that level of kind of political intrigue.

Nick: But like what's cool about like when you read like the stuff that there is about

Nick: like the second age is kind of like the way Tolkien presents this kind of like

Nick: decay of the island, right? They have this grandeur, this thousand-year reign

Nick: of glorious, and they treat other people good.

Nick: But eventually they get like, and this is kind of the Palantir thing,

Nick: they get super jealous of the elves and immortal life, right?

Nick: Turn to dark practices and kind of turn inward and stuff.

Nick: And that's manifested ultimately in that Farazan guy, the Muriel's cousin who

Nick: looks like he's going to become king.

Nick: So yeah, I don't know. They don't really tell the whole story, and it's hard to do it.

Evan: No, right. You almost would need multiple... You could have a show just about

Evan: each of these places, almost. You could have an elf...

Evan: Tv show or a show you know about what's going on there but doesn't farazan fight

Evan: sauron like some point and capture him or something like that yeah.

Nick: So ultimately how it like

Nick: works in like the lore is that like sauron kind

Nick: of openly declares himself and comes back

Nick: with an army of orcs and like fights gilgalid and all

Nick: them um and then the numenoreans

Nick: and it come to to their rescue and they basically like defeat Sauron and he

Nick: goes back to Numenor as like their captive but like he kind of turns into like

Nick: the dark and I think this is something that they're probably gonna do because

Nick: he has to get back to Numenor to kind of push that Farzan over the edge.

Evan: Right so yeah so maybe maybe that's actually what they're gonna as you said

Evan: they're compressing a lot of these things he'll have to get back there somehow

Evan: maybe that's maybe that's where he brings the rings for men perhaps maybe.

Nick: I think we're gonna see them go to a lot of different places.

Evan: Yeah i mean they want to i i don't want

Evan: to look at the like the descriptions of the

Evan: future episodes like i like to i try not to know spoilers before i watch things

Evan: just because but i'm sure that there's gonna have more there because why i'll

Evan: set all that up if it's not gonna pay off to something because if you're if

Evan: he's in the if he becomes king and then he does he become like the king of all

Evan: men is that what happens or no it.

Nick: Becomes like the king of numenor yeah.

Evan: Okay so i I don't know. Yeah, I need to, I don't have my, my, uh, lore.

Evan: I'm sure, I'm sure some, did you, some point during, maybe it was during the

Evan: Hoppet episode, did you send me, or at some point I had some website where if

Evan: you click on any like location in the, like in Middle Earth,

Evan: it would give you all these different details.

Evan: I don't know if you had sent this to me. I should have opened it for this, but anyway, um.

Nick: You have to send that to me if you can find it. I don't know if I saw that one.

Evan: I swear I had something about that. There was this crazy map that someone had

Evan: created where you could click on and it would tell you like how far things were

Evan: from each other and all these different.

Nick: That's really cool.

Evan: Path people took and it was all based on like you know sim really

Evan: in and all the all the different books or something but

Evan: yeah i'll find that and maybe i'll link it also in here but i don't know if

Evan: there's anything um i know because we talked about a lot of things we mostly

Evan: like but as far as things that like annoyed you from you know even the first

Evan: season or second season like was there anything that like stands out as just

Evan: you know this just doesn't make any sense at all like i don't know if there's uh anything.

Nick: I mean again i was trying not to like day on that too much which again,

Nick: it's just like the repeated things, like, you know, the Ents are coming now, right?

Nick: We're going to see the Ents. And I know they're really trying to make you feel

Nick: like middle, that you're in Middle Earth, but like when we saw the Ents and

Nick: then the, in the same one, we saw like a nod to Shelob.

Nick: And, you know, I guess as I'm talking it through, like I get it,

Nick: like they're trying to place you in the world with like familiar scenes and

Nick: familiar places and everything, but just sometimes it feels like a little overwrought

Nick: and that's just annoying me.

Evan: Yeah, well, I mean, they take a place that's not, I mean, it's a small place,

Evan: but it's still not that small where somehow they're able

Evan: to you know they are in the dark yeah the the she love thing also was very much

Evan: much creepier than maybe some of the ones in return of the king especially because

Evan: there's a lot of like little spiders that was kind of gross but yeah yeah i'm

Evan: not like i'm not usually a big fan of spiders in general but so i appreciated it yeah.

Nick: Yeah i get it i'll give you one thing that's annoying me is the whole like gandalf

Nick: and the hobbits line like it just feels completely unnecessary i.

Evan: Don't know what they i mean they only they wanted to have the hobbits involved

Evan: and i don't know any other way they could have been involved because they don't

Evan: do they at this point do they ever even cross paths with elves at this point i'm.

Nick: Sure because elves would still be kind of in that area so like i'm sure they

Nick: would be aware like the elves at least would be aware of their existence i don't

Nick: know about vice versa you know and yeah you're right i guess like how do you do it it just it's.

Evan: Irking me.

Nick: A little bit that Gandalf's coming in and like doesn't know anything. I don't know.

Nick: I get it. Maybe it's establishing his love and fondness for hobbits.

Evan: Yeah, no, I agree. I think that that's probably the weakest section,

Evan: and it doesn't really do much other than Gandalf learning his powers and his abilities.

Evan: And other than that, I don't know where that plot line will go.

Evan: And if it's... I don't know. Because we now have two wizards that have entered.

Evan: Well, unless you count... Yeah, two wizards, right? The dark...

Evan: What's the other wizard they have uh.

Nick: Oh that like dark wizard guy that they introduced well i don't even know who that is yeah.

Evan: I guess they don't really say see see i don't know does he kind of look like saran sarman sorry.

Nick: And it looks like sarman they're definitely going for that i don't think it's sarman um all.

Evan: Wizards just kind of look they just have a look i.

Nick: Guess so you know maybe they're just kind of like invoking christopher lee which

Nick: is like you know not the worst person or performance no he does he does look he does look a.

Evan: Lot like him he has kind of like the same facial.

Nick: Eyebrows and like the pointy beard features yeah i.

Evan: Actually really hope now that it's not him because that would kind of i think

Evan: that would kind of suck actually.

Nick: Yeah it just wouldn't make a lot of sense because like him and gandalf like

Nick: would have come over around like the same time and like that's also not to say

Nick: that like they're not supposed to come until the one ring's already been forged

Nick: so they're already way off with that but well.

Evan: Maybe they're gonna well yeah Yeah.

Evan: The only thing I could think of is if those two things, well,

Evan: I guess they make them obviously like they're on the same timeline unless,

Evan: yeah, I'm trying to give them credit by saying, okay, well, maybe those aren't,

Evan: it's not happening simultaneously as those.

Evan: And, you know, Gandalf will have some big realization when the actual one ring,

Evan: I don't know, isn't going to have the one ring. I don't know. Probably not.

Nick: Probably not. We'll see. But I mean, yeah, I don't know.

Nick: I mean, like I said, like I'm kind of stretching for things that I'd like are really bugging me.

Nick: Like there's always little things I think that just kind of accumulate you and

Nick: like you and I were talking about this offline.

Nick: It was like, you know, I'm enjoying it in the moment and then I find things

Nick: to kind of nitpick about it afterwards.

Nick: I'm like, Oh, why the fuck did they do that?

Nick: But again, I'm trying to let people enjoy things a little bit too now. Yeah.

Evan: Apparently they haven't announced the third season, but apparently they're leaning

Evan: to planning towards one.

Evan: I mean, I can't imagine they're just going to, it's very, very very popular

Evan: so you know someone's been doing.

Nick: Well like numbers wise i haven't really seen.

Evan: I don't know let's see uh is it considered like ratings i.

Nick: Don't know i mean like i'm sure amazon can invent its own kind of rating system.

Evan: To make it yeah because they don't they'll just announce usually like how many streams yeah.

Nick: And i don't know like what's good and what's not you know what i mean.

Evan: Yeah because they'll say sometimes for some netflix show come on it'll have

Evan: let's see rings of power season one uh the prequel had 25 million views in the

Evan: first 24 hours of its release,

Evan: But it says, and comparing it to the Game of Thrones, which when it was up, it had 10 million.

Evan: So, I mean, I guess that's a lot. Yeah. Again, seems like a lot.

Evan: I don't know. But they also could lie. I don't know. Who the hell knows?

Nick: That's what I'm saying. Like, we have to trust Amazon's own numbers at some level. But I don't know.

Evan: I mean, they wouldn't spend like a billion dollars or $500 million if it was not doing well.

Evan: Although, I guess I could see Jeff Bezos just being like, he has what?

Evan: $200 billion? What's one of them to make this show?

Nick: Yeah. although.

Evan: I'm sure it's not.

Nick: Actually his.

Evan: Money right so but still i don't know they'll.

Nick: Make five seasons.

Evan: Because they're gonna make four or five seasons because as.

Nick: Long as it does okay um they've got

Nick: enough here i think where it can justify like you know

Nick: four or five seasons based on what i've seen so far

Nick: you know um but then like again there's also

Nick: like if it continues to do well like there will be that

Nick: inevitable urge to draw it out and suck as much money as they humanly possibly

Nick: can off of it like so i don't know this is different but like speaking of amazon

Nick: shows like i've been watching the boys and i really enjoyed like the first few

Nick: seasons of it you know like it was cool but like just getting it's just too

Nick: much already like just yeah i've,

Nick: i've seen the whole thing.

Evan: And i feel like when i'm watching the last couple seasons i'm just nothing really

Evan: even makes any sense anymore it's almost like just extreme nonsense.

Nick: Yeah.

Evan: It's well, it's enjoyable. Okay. So here's something I just found.

Evan: It said that with the showrunners bought the rights, they bought the rights

Evan: for a 50 hour show, which means it would be five seasons.

Evan: And they claim that the payoffs won't end, you know, the won't pay off from

Evan: season one till season five.

Evan: And they already know what the last shot of the last episode will be,

Evan: which I assume will be, um, I don't know, killing the start of the Lord of the Rings, like opening.

Nick: That's what I would think too. Right? Like the Sildur cut in the ring.

Evan: But what's crazy is like it seems like they got to where they

Evan: are so quickly and then that's not that i don't know

Evan: they can move whatever pace they want again like again it's

Evan: good tv is it like perfect lord of the rings no but you know what it's gonna

Evan: do the same shit that game of thrones did i read all of the books the first

Evan: like three or four seasons were really good and then it just turned to shit

Evan: when they ran out of source material they don't really have any shortage of

Evan: source material it's just a question of how they use that i guess that's.

Nick: Exactly it yeah it could go for a while and into a lot of rabbit holes so you

Nick: know what they do with it i guess and i don't hate it just.

Evan: Enjoy it have tom bomb but have tom bombadil or something i.

Nick: Think i think he does pop in from what i saw.

Evan: When does he live for like

Evan: ever so he would be alive at this point yeah yeah yeah okay so they could have

Evan: him they could do whatever they want they could have gandalf meeting him i don't

Evan: know because isn't there like isn't there supposed isn't there like a council

Evan: with Gandalf and Bombadil and a whole thing that they don't they cut out of

Evan: or they didn't put in the second movie, Two Towers?

Nick: There is some kind of like I think meeting towards the end or something and

Nick: then the hobbits meet him in the fellowship but.

Evan: Yeah Bombadil deserves like to be in something.

Nick: Maybe they'll give him a cameo.

Evan: I wonder who will play him. I'm sure he'll be in it, but yeah.

Nick: One thing I'll say is they're not really relying on a lot of spectacle yet, at least.

Nick: I mean, in terms of epic battle stuff yet. I mean, visual and set piece spectacle, for sure.

Nick: But the battles are not here yet, and it's still got me hooked.

Nick: I think just to the point that the character work is pretty good,

Nick: and most of the dialogue is well done.

Evan: Yeah, most of it's well done, except for when they have to use callback lines.

Evan: There was one really bad one did i that we

Evan: did i send it to you there was one that was bad you said the one like he is

Evan: no man yeah there was another one when they were talking about the rings like

Evan: um oh god it was like one of the lines that galadriel says like in the uh like

Evan: the voice over in the very first fellowship and i can't remember what it was

Evan: yeah yeah one was created and see no i know.

Nick: What you're talking about i can't play.

Evan: There was some line as they said i'm like oh come on like this you know and

Evan: then and then i again have to do what you're doing is It's just like,

Evan: pretend for my sake that it's just Lord of the Rings content.

Nick: Maybe it's not dialogue as much as like, again, like the acting's good. So just stick with that.

Evan: Yeah.

Nick: I like the dwarves. I do like the dwarves. I mean, the dwarf storyline is kind

Nick: of, they've got to, you know, make it make a little more sense.

Nick: But like, I like, I love Durin and his wife. They're cool.

Evan: It's not, it's not, it's not too, uh, it's not too woke for, for that, for 2024.

Nick: Yeah. A black, only half bearded dwarf woman. What the fuck is this?

Evan: But I was telling Levi earlier today that I was recording this episode and we

Evan: were, I don't know, he asked me some question like, oh, do you like it even though it's too woke?

Evan: And I'm like, and I said, and I think the line I said was, is it Tolkien more

Evan: like Wolken or something like that?

Evan: Like, I couldn't think of a funny way to include it, but he's like,

Evan: you have to say it in the episode.

Nick: Someone on Reddit says that unironically now.

Evan: Says Wolken? Yeah.

Nick: No, I'm just, I'm speculating here.

Evan: Oh, okay.

Nick: I'm like...

Evan: I can't be the first one who said that, but he's like, oh, did you think of

Evan: that joke? I'm like, it wasn't really a joke. It's just, it's a play on.

Nick: That's good.

Evan: But yeah, that was like people who have those kind of complaints.

Evan: I don't take you seriously.

Evan: So you should just, you're not listening to this podcast if you think that the

Evan: word woke is like a worthy word to use. Yeah.

Nick: Stop being a chud.

Evan: But yeah, I don't really have anything, any other like thoughts.

Evan: Thoughts i mean yeah i mean this isn't this is not exactly

Evan: like one of those recap podcasts where we went through you

Evan: know scene by scene like you can you can go to

Evan: like esquire or i don't know other websites and read like recaps of each episode

Evan: if you want to get the detail and not want to watch it but that's that's that's

Evan: all i got um any uh any last thoughts on on this nick or any predictions i guess

Evan: we kind of well maybe it's too early in the season to predict we'll see,

Evan: if we'll since since we did this for three episodes and there's eight total

Evan: i don't know maybe we do this just in two parts or three parts whatever yeah.

Nick: Yeah maybe we could do one after the next three and then like for the i'm sure

Nick: the finale and maybe the last two will be longer so maybe that'll work out that way.

Evan: Yeah i gotta think the first one was like an

Evan: hour and 10 minutes and then the other were shorter but yeah it's

Evan: it's like 50 million dollars an episode or something crazy or 80 million dollars

Evan: it's like a movie for each episode but yeah we'll uh we'll we'll do uh do you

Evan: know further ones of these and hungry rye if you're listening well if you uh

Evan: catch up we'll glad to have you on the uh the next episode but any last thoughts nick no.

Nick: Man this was fun thanks for having me thanks for having me on.

Evan: Yeah it's uh the first uh the only other episode

Evan: i ever did on a tv show was just talking about

Evan: star trek as a communist tv show generally

Evan: just being like the communist utopia and i would

Evan: say that the tolkien middle earth universe is not the

Evan: communist utopia it is very much not but uh yeah it's the shire yes until we

Evan: build the shire that's right although i guess they do have some there is some

Evan: well maybe in a future episode we can talk more about um you know uh politics

Evan: of war of the rings of to a further degree it's.

Nick: Just socialism with baggins characteristics is all it is.

Evan: Is it uh bagginism is that the uh yeah yeah marxist bout marxist That's right.

Evan: Marks is Baggist. Something like that. That's right. But yeah.

Evan: Yeah, I don't have anything left, but Nick, it's been fun and I appreciate it.

Evan: Actually, you basically, you asked about doing this, doing talking,

Evan: I don't know if you actually about doing the episode, but I said, well, may as well do it.

Evan: But people should check out your podcast, even though you don't have stuff right

Evan: now, you should go listen to all of their Israel podcast.

Evan: Zionist series, but like 12 of them, 13, I don't know how many you have.

Nick: A lot of commentary. So I'm not educated on that yet. Yeah.

Evan: Yeah. If you're listening to this, you probably have some knowledge on that,

Evan: but there happens to be some shit going on right now, you know, in that region.

Evan: So you should read or listen to all of those episodes.

Evan: I appear in, I guess one of them, but it wasn't really a history episode.

Evan: It was more of a, of a discussing one, but Nick of Intervention, thanks for coming on.

Nick: Thanks for having me, buddy. Talk to you soon.

Evan: Cool. Well, everyone listening, you can listen to Intervention and Left of the

Evan: Projector on the internet where you can find podcasts and we'll catch you next time.