Join host Pastor David Schultz as he welcomes Diane Bahn to the Engaging Truth microphone. Diane and her husband, David, both just wrapped up 40-year-careers in ministry with his retirement as Senior Pastor at St. John Lutheran Church and her retirement as a leader and teacher with PLI, an organization designed to train church workers around the globe. Listen as Diane shares the highs and lows of a partnership dedicated to serving God.

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

Welcome to engaging truth, the manifestation of God's word and the lives of people around us. Join us each week. As we explore the impact of his message of spiritual renewal from the lesson of forgiveness forges in the crucible of divorce, to the message of salvation, learn earned by an executioner from a condemned killer to the gift of freedom found in the rescue of victims of human trafficking. This is God's truth in action.

Welcome to engaging truth. This is Dave Schultzer host for this evening's program, um, with the holy theme of mothers for the month of may and what a mother's day, many experience just recently. And so we're interviewing all mothers, um, people who have been through difficult things, been through joyous things and heartfelt things. So we welcome to the mic lady who has been with us before. Uh, her name is die, Diane Bon. And if, uh, people in the listening audience don't know her, it's your fault because she's been around for quite a while. And, uh, she has enjoyed, uh, the experience of being the pastor's wife at St. John in Cyprus. Welcome Diane. Thank you. I

Suddenly feel very old .

Who is Diane Bon?

Um, well, um, you mentioned that I have been a pastor's wife. I still am. Although my husband is retired from, uh, serving as a, a pastor in a congregation. Um, I'm a mom of four grown sons, um, have three lovely daughters-in-law and, uh, nine wonderful grandchildren. And, uh, speaking of mother's day, uh, got to celebrate mother's day with one of my daughter-in-laws and, uh, four grandchildren up in, uh, Oak Harbor, Washington recently. And, uh, just, that was delightful. That's one of the nice things about the age that I am now in the stage of life that I can travel a little bit more. Uh, so I've been a pastor's wife, I've been a Bible study leader, uh, church musician.

I've worked all the things that wives,

Well, it's kind of the stereotypical ones, but I did 'em because that's where I was gift it. And that's what I enjoyed doing. Um, but also served, uh, as a leader and trainer in, uh, an organization called PLI, uh, which was originally pastoral leadership Institute. And, uh, just retired from that myself. What does

Retirement from ministry look like this, just the heaviness of the, of what was happening in life and all of a sudden it's just like it disappears behind the green door.

Well, it's interesting that you use the word heaviness because I think both my husband and I didn't realize how much heaviness there was until we were close to retirement and then retired and that load was lifted, but neither of us feels that we've retired from ministry. Um, ministry is something everyone does. Um, it's just a specific job we might be retired from, but, um, uh, so there is a different lightness of being, not having the specific responsibilities of a job, but still looking for and praying about the ministry opportunities that God has for us, just wherever we are. So some of that's official and some of that's just, you know, in the family, in the neighborhood, wherever we go.

Well, I do know that with the talent that you have and talent that your, your husband has, that the Lord will use these gifts. I'm positive of that. Um, because, uh, even with my limited gifts over the years, since I retired, I am inundated. I was inundated with things until COVID came along, but now it's a whole different ball game on this side of COVID during ministry of all those years, there have been Hills and valleys. There have been tears. There have been cheers. I'm sure there have been disappointing moments, but give me, give me an incident, Diane, um, that never goes away in your mind, a heartfelt situation that, that maybe was never resolved properly, but it never goes away, but forgiveness was something that you walked away from that with joy.

Well, I would have to say one that stands out in my mind was, um, in a particular, uh, era of ministry in a, in a hard place. Um, oh, this has been some years ago. Uh, but it was a hard place of ministry for both my husband and myself. And, um, we tried to do bring some new thing to the church. We were serving at the time and, uh, in, in an effort to reach people that didn't know Jesus or weren't comfortable in the church to make them feel more comfortable. And, um, we got a, quite a bit of pushback from some, uh, a few people, outspoken people in particular. And, um, uh, it was a difficult time for my husband, especially, and, and also for me. And, uh, some of the comments were very negative. Uh, and people said things like we were messing with their doctrine and it didn't have anything to do with doctrine at all.

It was practice, but it was kind of sacred ground to them. And we left that place after some time. And it was years later. And we reflected on this a number of times about just the difficulty of being in that season of ministry. Uh, years later in another place we were living, one of the people who was so outspoken, uh, against him called us up one time and said, we're gonna be in the area. Could we come by and visit? And we were kind of shocked that, uh, they would want to do that. Uh, but when this couple came to visit, had dinner with us and the wife who was the outspoken person, uh, said, I just needed to come and tell you I was wrong. And it stands out because, you know, forgiveness was there. But, uh, beforehand, I mean, , you know, we didn't hold that against them, but to hear her acknowledge that and to be able to share that grace and love with her and to come to a good resolution, I think still stands out very much in both of our minds, um, that you don't always get to hear that right afterwards.

And so that, that was a very special moment for us. And I think for her too,

And the sad moments you almost have to bury, you have to leave behind simply because of the fact that, that, uh, there was no resolution, except Jesus knows the other side of that. Mm-hmm and maybe an eternity it'll all make sense. But tell me about a most joyous event. I was just talking yesterday to someone who was saying, boy, this woman really has a big job. She has three sons. And I said, oh, gonna interview one tomorrow. That's got four sons. And they weren't, they didn't come grown. They come as little children. Give me something that you is a memorable thought and situation that like, uh, like the other thought, it just never goes away.

Um, in terms of raising children, boys, boys

In means of, of church in, in, in PLI, what, what has happened that is a joyous response to your life in ministry that never goes away.

I would have to say, um, obviously seeing our, our sons grow up and, and thrive and, uh, where they are doing well and, and not that without struggles. Um, but so that, that's obviously a positive thing, but in terms of my specific ministry with PLI, one of the things that we teach is, uh, how you lead from within you lead from who God made you to be. Uh, in other words, don't try to be like the person next to you, but discover, how has God made you? How has he gifted you? And how can you be the best leader that God has equipped you to be? And I have found that to be so liberating for both men and women. Um, because many of the men that we work with were trying to be like their dad, or like the pastor. If, if we're talking about pastors, uh, the pastor that strongly influenced them, but they have different gifts.

And to be able to lead out their own gifts is very positive for the women. Same thing, whether they are, uh, pastor's wives, whether they are, uh, preschool teachers or leaders or DCE, uh, whatever role they are serving, whether in the church or in their own family, there is a freedom that comes from acknowledging. This is who God made me to be. This is how I'm gifted now. How can I best use those gifts? And just recently, um, uh, heard a woman say I've stopped comparing myself and competing either with her husband or with other people. And I've found that I can use my own gifts and that's okay. That just always brings a smile to my face because you'll always be better at being the person God made you to be than trying to be someone else. And so those are some real positive joys. What

Good lessons though, you would teach to the people who have come to you through girls who have come through P I go ahead.

Yes. Women and men, and what a good thing we can teach our children be the best one you can be. Don't try to compare yourself to your older siblings or someone else. Um, I would say another really positive thing is the importance of relationship. And for many people, they've not felt they've had a safe place to just say, this is what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling. This is what I fear. Um, or people will judge me if they know what's in my past. And that was something that we were able to provide in, in PLI was a, what we called a safe place to be who you are and to deal with some of your stuff. And I suppose I would have to say one of my greatest joys is when women in particular have come to me and said, I now have the freedom to get past this because I was in a safe place where I could share this. And sometimes that's been specifically with me or with others, but that's just been a huge plus for me, a positive, uh, high point, I guess, when, when people have that freedom to be who they are

P I didn't always exist in the church.

Correct. Um, what

Happened in your judgment? You see, in your leadership, how it developed in this culture?

Uh, well it first came about when, uh, pastors of large congregations, uh, realized, okay, when we retire, who will replace us and how will they have the leadership skills to do that. And as they met and began to discuss this, um, their wives said you can't do something else without training the women and bringing them alongside, uh, they don't wanna be left behind there's too many things like that. So that was the, for first, um, that, that's how that part got started in terms of pastors and wives coming alongside each other, learning together. And what was discovered then is that not only were, uh, pastors being trained to be better leaders, but their wives were being trained to be better leaders. And so from that, it evolved into this learning together. Um, research showed that husbands and wives learning side by side are much more effective, uh, than if one is growing and learning.

And the other is being left behind if you will. And, uh, P I then evolved over the years to include not just pastors and wives, but other church leaders. And sometimes the women were the church leaders, uh, as I mentioned, DCE or teachers or leaders of nonprofits. So, uh, and some of the men then are also maybe DCE or are types of leaders, not necessarily pastors. So it's, it's grown from that. And now we also are, uh, in PLI, we're training a thousand young leaders. Uh, it's another cohort that is just younger people that don't necessarily have a church position if you will, but we wanna learn how to be better leaders in their neighborhoods, in their workplace and not just leaders, but missional leaders sharing the, sharing, the gospel, and it's global as well. It's all over the world.

I know that you go back in your mind to the time when David graduate did from school, got his first call. You accompanied him kind of scary, not having a clue as to what these people were gonna be like, but trusted that they would be God fearing people. Um, how has all of that changed over the course of, of the years that you have been in ministry? There, there have been times where you probably have said, I think I wanna walk away from this. Um, and other times when you say, just grit it and say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna continue on because this is what God has called me to do. How has that changed that you have seen affected you as you have worked side by side with your husband as a head pastor?

Well, when, when we started out, uh, about 40 years ago, um, roles were more specifically defined and you had a sense of, this is what a pastor does. This is what a pastor's wife does. And you even mentioned that, you know, I filled some of those stereotypical roles, but I did that because I was a musician. And I did, I did do that because I wanted to, but I think over the years, what has changed is that, um, the wives of pastors are seen more as, um, that, that they have their own role, maybe their own career, whether it's within the church or completely separate from it. And, um, so there's a much more a acceptance and encouragement of, it's kinda, like I said, you use the gifts you've been given by God to serve him in whatever way he's calling you to do that.

And it may not be, um, specifically with a church role. So I think that's one of the things that has changed a lot. Um, the other thing that I've seen to change is there was a mentality that you call a pastor or a church worker, a, a church calls, a church worker to do the ministry and what we teach in PLI and what, what the Bible teaches is that those leaders are there to, and equip the people to do the works of service. It's Ephesians, uh, Paul talks about that. So there's much more emphasis now on training people to do the, the mission of God. And I think that's a beautiful thing because it it's biblical. Um, so I, there's still a pushback against that. Sometimes it's, uh, well, we call you to teach our kids or to, to do this work. Um, and so there's an ongoing need to train people in the church that they are the ones who are the small M minister and the capital M minister is the one that trains them to do it. Now, obviously there are roles and, and tasks that the pastor has that not all the church people have, but, uh, that's a big change that I've seen is that people are going out and sharing the gospel with their neighbors, with their friends. It's not all bring your friend to church, so the pastor can teach them. It's the pastor teaching the people to share the good news. We really

Both, uh, you and we have been through probably the, the golden years of Christian ministry. Uh, from this time I began to the, this day, these were golden years, um, a little bit tarnished once in while, but they were golden years. Um, today it's all together, different ministry is all together different. And you've described that, uh, very well. Um, what could you say to a minister's wife who may catch this particular program who's going through because of who she is or who she, isn't a very difficult time? What kind of words of encouragement can you give to her as you see your years in the past and the tears that you have had to share shed and the laughter that you've had to have

The most important thing is not to be isolated and not to try to go it alone. Um, I mean, obviously we have the Lord Jesus, we have the holy spirit, but he gives us people and we it's really important to seek out other people who can be encouragers. And, um, uh, sometimes that's within the context you're in, sometimes it's seeking out other, uh, why of church workers who would understand and just to be able to talk with them. But that support from others is crucial. And to listen to your own heart and know what God is calling you to, and not feel that you have to conform to what someone else is telling you to do, but that can be a hard battle. Uh, if you're not with other people who can help you face that battle,

When you look back, as you oftentimes do over those years, um, what has changed for you as a person, significantly from what you were, or 40 years ago when this mother had her first child and your first in ministry, the first baptism of your children, et cetera.

Oh, I think, um, the word that comes to my mind is intentionality. And, uh, when we were for in ministry, we were always looking for the next thing we were well, when we get out of seminary. Well, when we get to the next place, well, when this happens, when that happens and we both, uh, Dave and I both have said, we've missed opportunities because, or, or it was well, when our kids get older or when our kids get to school, then we can do this. Or, and I think I'm much more intentional in praying and seeking God, what do you have for me now? Um, who's gonna cross my path today that I can share a word of kindness with or grace or, um, so I'm not waiting until we get to the next thing. I can look for the opportunities that God's putting in front of me right here, and now in my neighborhood with my kids, uh, just wherever I am. I think that's one of the biggest things that has changed for me.

We can't see around the corner, um, and probably for all intention purposes, that's the best thing, gotta put our trust and faith in what God has planned for us, but let's just peek around the corner just a little bit. What does Diane see around the corner for Diane? Um, and maybe for her husband as well?

Well, this initial, these initial months of retirement, uh, we plan to be doing some traveling and, um, looking for what is the next thing for us, uh, where will God be calling us next? He already has some things lined up. Uh, we both are gonna be working in an international learning community with PLI. And, uh, so there's a couple things on that horizon, but as far as the specifics, not quite sure I'm gonna be looking for some ways to be involved in the community, but, uh, I have to get done with some of the traveling before I can see what that might look like. So we're open to where God is gonna lead

Us. You by your very nature are very hospitable. Is that hospitable nature of yours? Is that something that is created because of ministry and in necessity, or did that come from your mama or, or did this just, is that part of Diane's nature? Well,

It's a little, it's a combination. Uh, I tend to be more of an introvert and actually my husband is as well in terms of how we regroup and refresh, but we do like to be with people. And, um, because we value relationships that hospitality is a necessity and it's probably something we work at that isn't, it's not just immediately natural, but it's important enough to us to work

At it. The joy of being a mother, the joy of being a pastor's wife, the joy of being a child of the heavenly father is nothing that can be taken away from us. What we do in Christian radio is talk about this, this applied the theology of grace. We're gonna conclude our particular program very shortly, but talk about the, just for a few moments about the grace that God has placed in Diane's life.

The grace of God is something really precious to me. Um, I tend to be a kind of a perfectionist personality, uh, hard worker, uh, do my best. I was kind of brought up that way. So grace is important because if you're a perfectionist, it becomes clear pretty quickly that you just keep failing. You're just never, uh, you never achieve that love of perfectionism that, that you think you should. So, so grace is so important and I've seen it lived out. Um, I think maybe the best example of grace has been my husband, uh, at times toward me and seeing that grace lived out, not just learning about it or reading about it, uh, makes it real. I mean, it puts skin and flesh on it. And, uh, that is just a precious, precious thing. It's helped me, um, be gracious to other people who difficult and challenging because I've experienced when I've been the difficult challenging person, uh, when someone's had grace for me. So I wanna

Thanks. Thank you, Diane. This has been very good conversation and other mothers who have experienced the love that you've experienced among people truly is genuine. So thank you for being with us and thank you in the listening audience for being with us and engaging truth. Come back again next Sunday night, we'll be with you then.

Thank you. Thank you for listening to this broadcast of engaging truth. Be sure to join us each week at this time, to help support our ministry, contact evangelical life ministries, post office spot 5 68, Cypress, Texas 77, 410, or visit our website Elm houston.org, or find us on Facebook evangelical life ministries. Thank you.