The pivotal assertion of this podcast episode centers on the transformative power of empathy in leadership, as articulated by our esteemed guest, Dr. Melissa Robinson Weinmiller. With over two decades of extensive experience across various industries, Dr. Weinmiller elucidates how leaders can cultivate emotionally intelligent cultures that not only foster individual flourishing but also enhance organizational performance. She contends that empathy, often relegated to the realm of "soft skills," is, in fact, a fundamental driver of engagement, innovation, and success. Through her insights, we explore the imperative of redefining leadership to embrace empathy as a core competency—an essential quality that is increasingly vital in today's rapidly evolving workforce landscape. We invite you to join us in this enlightening discourse, which not only challenges conventional notions of leadership but also offers actionable strategies for integrating empathy into organizational practices.

The podcast's exploration of empathetic leadership, featuring Dr. Melissa Robinson Weinmiller, presents a profound examination of how emotional intelligence is the linchpin of effective leadership in contemporary organizations. The discourse begins with a compelling assertion that traditional notions of leadership, which prioritize authority and technical expertise, are insufficient in today's complex work environment. Dr. Weinmiller, leveraging her extensive experience, posits that empathy is not merely a desirable attribute but an essential competency that drives organizational success. This is particularly relevant as the workforce evolves, with younger generations seeking deeper connections and meaning in their professional lives, rather than viewing their jobs as mere economic transactions.

Throughout the conversation, Dr. Weinmiller articulates the necessity for leaders to transcend conventional practices by actively engaging with their teams on a personal level. She highlights the critical role of empathy in understanding employees' aspirations and challenges, thereby fostering an environment conducive to innovation and high performance. The discussion further emphasizes the empirical evidence supporting the efficacy of empathetic leadership, including metrics that demonstrate increased productivity and employee satisfaction within organizations that prioritize emotional intelligence.

The podcast explains the difference between emotional and cognitive empathy and gives leaders a framework for effective interpersonal engagement. Emotional empathy involves an instinctive connection to others' feelings, whereas cognitive empathy emphasizes an analytical understanding of perspectives. This distinction is crucial for leaders who strive to maintain boundaries and avoid emotional burnout. In summation, the podcast serves as a clarion call for leaders to embrace empathy as a foundational principle, advocating for a transformative shift in leadership practice that aligns with the evolving expectations of the modern workforce.

Takeaways:

• In the realm of contemporary leadership, emotional intelligence is increasingly recognized as indispensable for fostering productive organizational cultures.
• Dr. Melissa Robinson Weinmiller emphasizes that empathy should not be perceived merely as a soft skill, but rather as a critical driver of performance and engagement.
• The future of leadership will rely heavily on the ability to employ empathy effectively amidst the rise of technology and artificial intelligence.
• A leader's authenticity and ability to set appropriate boundaries are paramount in cultivating a culture of empathy within their organization.
• Understanding the perspectives and outcomes desired by team members is a fundamental step towards effective leadership and organizational success.
• Leaders must balance cognitive and emotional empathy to avoid empathy fatigue while ensuring they remain connected to their teams.

Welcome to Becoming Bridge Builders, the podcast where we explore ideas, stories and strategies that connect people, strengthen communities and transform leadership.

I am your host, Reverend Dr. Keith Haney.

Today's guest was a challenge.

Everything you think you know about leading others, Dr. Melissa Robinson Weinmiller isn't just about talking leadership.

She's redefining it.

With more than 20 years of cross industry experience, she helps leaders build emotionally intelligent cultures where people thrive and results follow.

She's a TEDx speaker, EQ coach, and the author of a powerful new book, the Empathetic Leader.

Melissa blends research, real world insights and lived experiences to show that we, when we opted a label as soft skills are actually the core drivers of performance, engagement and organizational success.

She's on a mission to prove that empathy isn't optional.

It's the future of leadership.

Melissa, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so excited to be here.

Well, good.

Well you say that now.

We haven't started yet.

That's right.

So I'm going to ask you my favorite question.

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

That you have to lead yourself first.

If you don't even think about leading anybody else and until you can lead yourself.

And that doesn't mean you have to be perfect, it's an ongoing process.

But you have to understand that leadership of self before you can be a leader of anybody else.

I love that.

And especially when we're talking about being an empathetic leader, it's really critical to do that.

That's that and emotional intelligence is just kind of the new buzzwords in leadership.

And I just have so many people on talking about that is, that's going to be the defining characteristic of this generation of leaders.

Especially as leadership.

The workforce changes.

People are, are approaching workforce differently than they ever have before.

And so yeah, having kids in that age group that are entering the workforce and just how they approach life versus how I approach life is, is so different.

So this is interesting and we're going to have a good time talking about this.

Yeah, well, and I couldn't agree more.

I mean I really think it is going to be the defining thing for all future leadership.

But I, I won't get ahead of you and I, I get excitable about this stuff.

So I'll try not to jump ahead.

No, what I, I do too with leadership because I, I, I learned early on in my very first real job, I would say that when I walked in the building as a 26 year old, the Organization, they're expecting me to lead right away and I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing.

But you couldn't tell them that because they're like, we, we hired you.

Or as my situation, they called me to be the leader.

So you can't tell them you have no idea what you're doing, even though you did not.

So you had to figure it out really quickly and as somebody said, fake it till you make it.

So.

Yeah, yeah.

And a lot of leaders get thrown into that position, which is why they have, you know, they may be fantastic technically, I mean, and incredibly bright people, but they've never been taught how to lead.

And it is a skill set.

But like I said, I won't get ahead of you.

There you go.

Yeah, so.

So let's dive in.

So you've spent more than 20 years helping leaders across different industries.

When did you first begin to see the empathy wasn't just helpful, but it was essential?

You know, it really started, I mean, I knew it was important and, and that it was something that was missing and it was probably a key to leadership.

But as far as seeing it as something that was beyond a nice to have, I really started to get a handle on that when I was in the house healthcare space because you know, these are people that in dealing with patients, they're taught to use empathy.

You know, there's, there's the medical side of things and that, you know, empathy is part of how you're supposed to relate to people.

But yet the administration didn't necessarily approach empathy in the same way because they were non patient facing.

And it just became really obvious that, that this wasn't just a nice to have.

This was something that without it, nothing else worked like it should.

So it was, it wasn't just a transferable skill, it was the transferable skill, in my opinion.

I like that.

How do you convince especially leaders today that it's not just a soft skill, but it's something that's really important and critical to master.

2020 22.

And it was as a response to the Great Resignation.

They were looking at these different organizations and they did a big survey of leaders and employees and everybody.

And what they really found was that the organizations that could effectively use empathy, I mean on top of keeping their employees, because this was about the Great Resignation, could raise their productivity by 87%, innovation by 86%, profit by 84%.

Now as an organization, how do you say, well, you know, that's just a nice to have when those are the hard metrics that go with it.

It's a hard skill.

It isn't this fluffy puppies and rainbows thing.

It's learnable, it's teachable and it's doable.

And those are the numbers that go along with it.

Because the workforce, in my opinion, has changed so dramatically from just even 20 years ago.

The mindset of the younger people in the workforce are this job is not my be all, end all.

It is not going to encompass and eat up my life.

And I'm not going to, it's not going to dominate everything I do.

I'm not going to see myself attached to this job as being a part of who I am.

How, as you look at the different sectors you've worked across, how have your transitions in all those different areas help you understand what the modern leader needs to understand in today's work environment?

I think exactly like you're talking about, the people coming up don't see work the way we did.

I mean, I'm Gen X, so we figured you go along with what you've done, you move up through the company, you, you know, you do what you're told and toe the line.

And the thing is, is I think the generations behind us have seen that organizations don't necessarily honor that.

You know, neither good nor bad.

It's just the changing of the landscape.

So if organizations aren't going to take care of people and give them loyalty, then why should the people give these organizations loyalty on the front end?

Really what it comes down to in leadership with using empathy as a skill is having the ability to name the other person's outcome.

It's about perspective taking what is it they want, what is they're afraid of, what is it they're working towards.

So if you can look at these younger generations and name their outcome, that what they want is a work life balance because they don't necessarily trust these organizations to take care of them.

Suddenly it becomes really clear what they do want, you know, and you're, you're able to align their outcome with yours as an organization and start to really gain understanding and connection.

As I hear this, I understand that that's important, but as an executive who's going, I got a bottom line to get to, I don't really have time to hold people's hands through this.

This is just so annoying.

How do you convince people that this is not just a man?

You just got to grin your teeth and bear it kind of thing, as opposed to if I jump into this with both feet, I could really create an atmosphere and a culture that, that is dynamic.

Absolutely.

I think it really starts with understanding what empathy is and what it isn't.

Because like I said, we have this idea that it's fluffy and puppies and rainbows and we're all going to hug it out.

And that's not what it is.

Not even a little bit.

There's actually 43 different definitions of empathy that one of I feel what you feel.

That's one.

But that's one of 43.

And the whole purpose of empathy is to be able to take the perspective of the other person through their eyes.

And when you think about organizations, that's what they're there to do, whether it's their employees or their customers or their board of directors.

So as someone in a leadership position, you should already be working to do this.

But understanding that it's empathy and that there's a way to do it is only going to make that skill more powerful.

Okay, so I did my dissertation on organizational change in the church and I wanted to compare the different styles of organizational change.

Success versus the kind of not successful.

But I also wanted to incorporate that different leadership styles.

If certain leadership styles were better at leading change than others.

I'm curious, in your empathetic model, is there a leadership type that you see that this is more natural for like maybe servant versus trans transactional leaders?

Or is it just across the board?

Anyone can learn this and do this.

It's just a matter of having to adapt a little things here and there to do that effectively.

I think pretty much anyone can learn it as long as they're not married to a command and control style of leadership that does not work and hasn't for a long time.

You know, I do think that certain types of leadership do lend themselves more naturally to it.

Like you mentioned servant leadership.

You know, if you're already trying to give your people what they need, you're already trying to take their perspective.

Certain kinds of transformational leadership are going to help with that.

It depends, because there's.

There's the transformational leadership where you want to make a difference in the organization, and there's the transformational leadership that's more ego driven.

So, you know, that makes a difference.

I think situational leaders too, where they're actually able to look at the situation, situation and what's going on with their people and how they might be able to, you know, use the environment to propel the organization.

I think it really lends itself to that one as well.

But it really is something, you know, that we.

Another myth is that either you have empathy or you don't.

And that's not true, not for all types of empathy anyway.

So in the same way, it can lend itself to a lot of different kinds of leadership styles.

So I tested narcissistic leaders as my.

One of my things, too.

I didn't call it that because no one wanted to want to check off.

They were narcissists.

But I. I called it charismatic leadership.

And that was interesting, too, because of the charismatic leader, again, needing to have talked about their ego, kind of pumped up in that.

And so that could be dangerous in terms of whether or not you're doing it for the right reason or you're doing it because you want people to praise you.

Yeah, yeah.

Then there is such a thing called dark empathy.

Yeah, same kind of thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

I love that.

So let's talk about your book, the Empathetic Leader.

What inspired you to write it?

And what gap in leadership were you trying to fill with it?

So I really wanted a handbook to kind of go along with the coaching that I'm already doing that talks about, you know, what empathy is, what it isn't, how it works, why it works, how you make it actionable.

Because that's the big gap that I see that people are like, empathy is great.

We love it.

We have it in our mission, vision, and values, but we can't define it.

And we don't know how to make it actionable and strategic.

Because, you know, it's.

My example is it's like a treadmill.

Treadmill is fantastic to have, but if it sits in the corner and you hang your clothes on it, it's not going to do you any good because you're not using it.

Empathy is the same way.

It's great to have, but if you don't use it, it's just collecting dust.

You just mentioned something I want to dig into.

You talked about empathy is actionable.

What is one actionable step from your book that readers can begin practicing today?

The name their outcome step.

I mean, actually take the time to understand what the other person's outcome, what is the outcome that they're envisioning?

You know, what is it that drives them?

Because if you can take that kind of perspective from somebody else, you can align outcomes, and when you can align your outcomes with theirs, now everybody's paddling the boat in the same direction.

If you're doing that as a leader of an Organization, kind of.

Give me some examples of how you would approach your employees as you're trying to figure out that.

Yeah, absolutely.

So we were talking about the younger generations, right.

And that their outcome may not be that they want to be the best gunner, the most ambitious.

I'm going to go for it, you know, but on the other hand, what these generations may be looking for is loyalty or, you know, a certain amount of connection within the organization or a reason.

Give them a reason to be there and work.

Their outcome is, I want to have a reason because I'm looking beyond what's happening today, and I'm looking more towards social outcomes or societal outcomes or those sorts of things.

Now, as a leader, if you're trying to take someone who wants a reason to be there, you know, our organization is.

Is socially conscious.

We do these things within the community where we're always working to give back.

And you're trying to motivate this person through financial gain or those sorts of things.

You're not going to motivate that person.

There are outcomes, and what you think think their outcomes are are two completely different things.

So if you want to actually be able to align the outcome of the organization with their outcomes so you're motivated in the same way, you need to talk about what are we doing that's societally conscious.

What are we doing that's actually going to bring our organization forward?

You know, what are we doing to show that we are giving you loyalty as much as an organization is going to?

So once you understand them now, you understand what their drivers are.

And once you understand what their drivers are now, you can actually motivate them so that things are running in the same direction.

I like that.

Let me give you an example of how I see that being problematic, because I was thinking about, for example, if you say our organization is societally conscious, I was just thinking about, for example, Target a couple years ago was societally conscious about the LBGTQ community.

Now they've walked all that back and they're not.

And so now people are angry with them.

So if you're someone who works there and all of a sudden because of outside pressures, your organization isn't as committed to that.

It was more about dollars than it was about an actual heartfelt commitment.

You feel very betrayed by that.

As a worker, I'm just curious the danger of you saying that that's who you are, but that's really not your actual driver as an organization, how do you align that with this empathetic leader?

Well, first of all, you need to be honest and sincere as a leader.

And if you're just telling people what you think they want to hear, then that's not actually being a good leader in the first place, you know?

Right.

People are not always going to be a complete fit to an organization.

I mean, they're, they're not.

We are human beings.

Not everything fits that neatly.

So if your organization is about the bottom dollar and not about societal change, and you tell your people we're about societal change, and then you go, oh, just kidding.

Don't be surprised, you know, because that's not empathy at all.

That's manipulation.

Right.

That's not okay.

But on the other hand, if, as in, you know, culture always drips down from the top.

Right.

As a leader, you are always on stage, so your people are always going to be watching what you're doing and whether or not you walk the talk.

And if you are who you say you are, you're leading yourself, you're being authentically who you are, and you walk that talk, your people will see that.

And if, then you say, yes, this is what we're about, or no, this isn't what we're about, that's authentically correct.

You know, people have a lot of different drivers.

So that's just an example of one that tends to motivate people.

There's a lot of them.

That doesn't mean that has to be the one and only driver to be able to try and bring people into the tent and motivate them along for the same outcomes.

It can be a lot of different things.

But, you know, some of that goes back to actually being an authentic leader and saying what you mean and not just pandering.

Yeah.

So I think that's a key part of this discussion too, is authenticity as an empathetic leader is also very critical.

You just can't say what someone needs to hear because you want to drive a bottom line.

And if I, if I can pour into who I think you are, then I can get you to perform like I need you to perform.

Yes.

Yes.

I would actually add to that, too.

That one point that I have to make a lot is that having empathy does not mean you don't have boundaries.

Having empathy does not mean you're a doormat.

And if you're someone who's trying to please everybody by telling them what you think they want to hear, that makes you a doormat, which is not empathy.

That's people pleasing and pandering, and that's.

They're different things.

So we talked about the many different definitions of empathy.

Yeah, let's talk about the difference between empathy and emotional rescue.

Can you explain the distinction and why that matters for leaders between empathy and emotional rescue?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Because emotional rescue, you're.

You're talking more about cuddling.

You know, it's.

It's all emotional.

It's, you know, let me take care of you and let me.

Let me pick you up from wherever it is and.

And hold you and tell you it's okay.

That's back to that myth again, that empathy is all feelings, and it's not.

Empathy isn't necessarily emotional at all.

For instance, there's a thing called cognitive empathy, and that's the thing that I actually talk to leaders about the most.

And cognitive empathy is I logically understand what you're feeling, where you're at, what your situation is, but I don't feel it at all.

So if you're actually approaching it cognitively and with cognitive empathy and trying to understand the perspective without getting involved emotionally, you're not going to be there for emotional rescue because they're two really different things.

It's called a dual root model of empathy.

Emotional empathy is fast.

It's quick.

It is that part of empathy that is biological and ingrained.

Cognitive empathy is slower.

It's iterative, it's logical, and it's something that you go back over and over and over again.

Emotional rescue is going to be like, oh, let me jump in and save you.

Cognitive empathy is going to be, no.

Let's discuss this and figure out what we can do so that I understand your situation, and then we can figure out what we want to do from there.

So your book is laid out in three major parts.

Understanding emotional intelligence through empathy.

Where to begin, Empathy in action.

And then you end in part three with empathy essentials.

So kind of walk us through how, why you laid it out that way and the progression of how your book goes.

Yeah, so when I was trying to put this together, I was trying to think of how leaders could use this best.

And so the three big chunks.

The first one is, what is it?

You know, let's define it.

I actually take a lot of time to define what it's not because there are so many just weird myths about it out there.

So that first big chunk, and it is.

It is probably the biggest of the three.

But it's.

It's, what is it and what isn't it, you know, and why does it belong in business?

The second chapter is how do you start to apply it?

How do you apply it to yourself.

How do you do self empathy?

Where does this start to come in actionably?

It's where it's not just a concept, but it's an actual action.

Third chapter really looks outside.

You know, how do you apply to the organization?

How do you apply it with middle managers?

What does this mean for AI?

What are some of the flags that we see for people that don't have empathy?

Because there is that end of the spectrum.

You mentioned narcissists.

They're one of them that don't have any empathy.

Narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths and Machiavellians.

So, you know, actually gaining a better understanding of what this, this looks like out in the world and how you can apply it.

How were the challenges you're seeing as you try and coach people through this?

With the lack of us being together as workers now?

So many people work from home, so many people are deployed.

How do you build a team with empathy when you don't get to see people?

I know as a Generation X, I'm used to being in the same room with people, having meetings, going to coffee together and lunch.

But when you don't have that sense of togetherness, how do you do that?

When you're not present with each other,.

I think it becomes even more important to just ask, can you explain this to me?

I'm looking at you over, you know, zoom.

I can't necessarily read your body language from here.

I can't understand the nuances of what happens day to day.

So I need you to explain it to me.

You know, that's, that's one thing that I do go over with leaders a lot is they'll say, well, I don't know what he was thinking.

And I'll say, well, did you ask him?

Well, no, we'll, we'll ask him.

I bet if you ask him, he'll tell you.

And it's, it's a simple thing that we don't think about.

I mean, plus, if you're in leadership, you don't have tons of time.

I mean, this isn't about going out and having coffee, clutch and, you know, kumbaya, and we're all going to hang out for hours and hours.

This is about making connections and creating understanding.

And if you don't have time to be able to understand your people through all of this stuff, sometimes you got to cut to the chase.

And the quickest way to do that is to say, I need you to explain it to me.

Can you explain this to me, please, from your perspective Because I don't necessarily know.

And along those same lines, I'm reading a book now, Digital Body Language, and it's talking about the fact that with our distance and with the culture we have now and everything being digital, we.

We can communicate things digitally that we don't mean to communicate.

So, like, somebody was.

The example the book used was this one particular worker likes to send long emails with a lot of questions in it, and her co worker wrote back one sentence of, yeah, I like that, or good idea, and she felt like she was being dismissed and her whole work was being ignored.

How do you help leaders understand the digital aspect of the language that we're communicating?

By how we respond to emails.

I remember when I was in work too, that one older email, one of my older co workers would write everything in caps, which for younger people is like, why is he always yelling at me?

I mean, he just didn't understand what that was.

So how do you incorporate the digital piece of that as well in communication?

Well, again, I think you have to communicate what your expectations are, which may mean having a team meeting around.

How do we communicate?

Because communication, I mean, the word, the base of the word is communicare, which is the same as to commune or to bring together or to share.

So communication at its best is a sharing, which means going in both directions and not just, you know, barfing out information.

So you have to actually get your people together and share this information.

As the leader, this is my expectation.

You know, I expect that when we communicate because there's so much of it that we try to keep our communications short.

I don't want them to be terse.

You can, you can definitely be friendly, but there are some people that are over communicators and some people that are under communicators.

Please do not reply all.

Please do not put all of this in caps.

I mean, sometimes you just have to say it.

The thing is, is I was reading cues by Vanessa Van Edwards and she talks about body language and cues and how we relate to each other.

And it's like 70% of our cues are given through body language and facial expression and those sorts of things.

So when you take all that away, the words that you use and the way you convey them become 100% of your communication, which means it's more important to communicate about how you want to communicate.

And the only person that can really set that tone is the leader.

Wow.

So difficult these days.

It's always evolving.

Oh, and with AI, yes.

Yeah, definitely.

So what's one story from your book where a client based or in my own journey that the best illustrates empathy, changing a team or an organization.

So this is one.

It wasn't really in my book, but it's a director that I worked with recently and he was brought in to basically try and change the culture in his department.

And of course culture drips down from the top, but yet leadership says, come in and change all our culture.

That has been going on for 10, 15, 20 years.

So he's looking at me and he's like, well, what do I do with this?

And I'm like, the first thing you have to do is connect with your people.

If they don't feel you have a connection, if they never see you come out of their office, you're just going to be continuing the same stuff.

So what we decided was that he was going to do his rounds once a day.

And this didn't mean that he was going to go out and talk for hours and hours.

It meant that he was going to go out and see his people and just say, hey, you know, they're in the core.

This is a medical facility facility.

And then go back to his office and do what he needed to do.

And bonus, it got him up from his computer for a few minutes, which you know is leader burnout, is like 35%.

So just getting up and work, walking around a little bit can make a big difference.

Well, because they started to see him and know him and he wasn't just someone who was in his office who only came out when something was wrong.

They started to trust him and they started come to him, coming to him with solutions for inefficiencies.

And while on the surface it seems really fast, some of these people had been with the organization for a decade or more.

They already knew where the inefficiencies were.

They already knew what needed to change.

They just didn't have a leader they felt they could talk to about it because there was no connection.

So they went and talked to him.

He was able to institute some of these inefficiencies.

Productivity went up because productivity went up and they felt that they were being heard.

Profit went up all because of this initial innovation.

His employee engagement scores went from like the mid-70s to like the lower-90s fairly quickly.

And of course, you know, the people above him are like, well, how'd you do that?

And he's like, I talked to them, I understood their perspective.

They came to me with this and in 90 days I've been able to make some inroads on this and it can happen that fast.

I mean, it's not going to be set set that fast, but you can make some beginnings, you know, like a quick, like a quick touchdown at the beginning of the first quarter.

It's going to help set the tone for the rest of the game.

Yeah, I love that.

I'm curious, as an EQ coach, you get a front row to how leaders navigate emotions.

What's the biggest EQ blind spot you see kind of across the board?

It's this idea that it's soft.

And as a leader you can't show weakness or be soft.

So it's actually a double blind spot.

Because on one hand it's not soft and on the other hand, who said that a leader can't make mistakes or, you know, have problems or is.

Why are leaders not allowed to not be strong 100% of the time?

And yet these myths persist.

It's funny, you'd think that we would have figured out that these things just don't work and yet they still are there.

Yeah, that's good.

We talked about this a little bit and I want to kind of drill deeper on it because there is a fear as leaders that being empathetic could lead to burnout or like you say, being a doormat.

What guidance do you offer for those leaders who don't want either of those two options but do want to be more effective as a leader?

So first of all is just like we were talking about, that having empathy doesn't mean you don't have boundaries.

These are businesses and business needs to get done.

So you can't take on all this emotional baggage.

You can't rely just on feelings.

You know, there is such a thing as empathy fatigue.

Healthcare workers deal with it all the time, especially like post Covid.

And leaders deal with enough without taking all of that on.

So, you know, having empathy does not mean you're a doormat.

And again, that's where I lean into the cognitive side of it.

Because as leaders, they really do need that and it protects them from that burnout.

Exactly like you were talking about.

You know, because the thing is with empathy too is it works best person to person.

When you start dealing with groups of people, empathy doesn't work as well.

That's why when you see the news and stuff, the one little girl that fell in the well is going to get more of a heartfelt reaction than, you know, some of the conflicts that have been going on for a long time.

So as a leader, you're dealing with groups of people.

If you're Trying to give your heart out to groups of people one at a time, you're going to have empathy fatigue.

But if you can employ this cognitive empathy and understand that, you know, this doesn't mean it's all going to be flowers and rainbows for everybody.

A job needs to get done, but there's a way to do it where I can understand other people's perspective and not run roughshod over everybody.

Now suddenly it's a tool and not a hindrance.

That's good.

So what do you see the future of leadership going if depends on empathy, how do you see the 10 years down the road?

Where is this all heading?

I see it as supply and demand.

So the more we have AI, the more we have big tech, the more we have big data, the more we have these things that don't have empathy.

The supply of the side of things that don't have empathy is going up, which means the demand is going to be for those who have empathy and can actively employ it, because there will be less and less of those who can actually use it.

So in order to be a leader, that's going to be a commodity.

Now is a good time to start cultivating those skills.

Awesome.

So if we could adopt one principle from your book, the Emphatic Leader, what principle should we adopt?

It would be to keep a cool head and a warm heart.

And what I mean by that is you have to have both.

You've got to have cognitive empathy and emotional empathy in different degrees depending on the situation, but there has to be both.

So to always keep a cool head and a warm heart.

I love the thing you said about you have to have boundaries.

How do you as a leader either discover what your boundaries are or set good boundaries?

We can set boundaries that aren't necessarily healthy, but what suggestions you have for us for identifying what are good boundaries to have as an empathetic leader?

If you're dealing, if you're a leader for an organization, then your boundaries are going to tend to run alongside whatever, you know, the needs are of that organization.

So, for instance, I've met a lot of leaders that have a hard time giving performance reviews.

They don't want to give negative reviews.

They.

They want everything to be nice, which isn't always very kind.

It's just, you know, it's keeping everything smooth and comfortable.

Well, the boundaries should be.

The boundaries shouldn't be.

I don't want to make anybody uncomfortable.

The boundary should be, I want to help my people rise to the highest level they can.

And that may mean Giving them hard information.

But I'm not doing it because I'm a monster.

I'm doing it to help them grow.

You know, it's that.

It's that difference between nice and kind.

Nice is a social construct.

It's what we do.

You know, it's social lubrication.

It's what we do to get by in society and keep both ourselves and other people comfortable.

But it doesn't necessarily give either you or the other person what they need.

Kind will help people grow.

It will help them get better.

It will help them achieve or.

Or at least be able to understand themselves a little bit better.

Empathy is not always nice, but it is always kind.

Good.

I love that.

Where can people find you buy your book?

I love the COVID the book, the color of it, the color.

Your book is so colorful.

But where can they find your book and connect with you on social.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes.

So you can catch me at my website, which is eqvia, and that's Vias and Victor I a.

Empathy.

There is a place where you can buy the book.

You can see my TedX.

We hit 100,000 views.

Yeah.

Yeah, please.

In three months, I'd love to have people keep going that way.

You can catch my book on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and Usuals, and my audiobook version was just released about a week and a half ago, so.

So for anybody who prefers to get it through the years, it's out there now.

Did you read it yourself or did you have someone else do it?

I did it myself.

Wow.

Okay, cool.

I love when the author reads their own books.

It's kind of cool.

Well, they kind of know what they were thinking when they wrote it, hopefully.

Right?

Yeah.

I know Brene Brown does that.

And I just listened to her book, and she's added some other details that weren't in the book, so it's kind of neat.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So I'm asking my other favorite question.

What do you want your legacy to be?

I want to be the lady who brought empathy into organizations as a skill and changed the face of business.

I like that.

Yeah, it's a big order, but don't know till you try.

Right?

You know, you can't have big legacies if you don't have a big legacy to plan, so.

That's right.

So this season, we have something special.

We have a surprise question.

Pick a number between one and eight for your surprise question.

Oh, five.

Oh, here we go.

What's the worst job you ever had?

Oh, geez.

Okay.

Patient service rep. For a hospital, but specifically I was dealing with male testosterone and that kind of thing.

So I. I got some people that were angry.

Very, very, very, very angry.

That's where empathy comes from when you deal with angry people.

Right.

I actually learned a lot about it on that job, about having empathy for people that maybe you weren't sure you liked a whole lot.

Right.

It was good.

It wasn't fun.

Empathy tested.

Yes.

Yes.

Usually all day, every day.

Yeah.

Well, Melissa, thank you so much for sharing today.

Being a guest on the podcast, your leadership is more than just being human and courageous and transformational lens.

Thank you for sharing that.

Your work proves that empathy is not a luxury.

It's a leadership requirement to our listeners.

If today's conversation challenged or inspired you, get a copy of the Empathetic Leader.

It's not just a book.

It's a guide for leading with clarity, compassion, and courage in a changing world.

Be sure to follow the show, share this episode with someone in your circle who needs empathy and also leave us a review for supporting your show.

Help us continue building bridges that matter.

Melissa, thank you so much for your time and your effort.

Thank you.

It's been my pleasure.