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#207 – The Imperfect Beauty of Motherhood with Cathy Spooner
Episode 20717th August 2022 • Happy Mama Movement with Amy Taylor-Kabbaz • Amy Taylor-Kabbaz
00:00:00 00:41:11

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When we can be kinder to ourselves as mothers, we have a much nicer experience of motherhood. Sounds simple, right? There’s a lot of talk around being a conscious mother and conscious motherhood, but what does it really mean? After the conversation with my guest, Cathy Spooner, today I think you’ll be surprised to find its not what we are fed or led to believe. Listen to this delicious conversation as Amy and Cathy discuss:

  • The beauty of imperfection where life gets real, what that looks like and what we can do to live alongside the messy beautiful.
  • How different parts of our bodies are intertwined and sometimes the idea of ‘flicking a switch’ actually can dismiss and stall us in our acceptance and progress within Matresence.
  • When trying to accept the external, it has to start with accepting the internal because there are several different ways matresence affects us.
  • Demonstrating how giving to yourself can also benefit others, especially our children.

Often, as Mamas, we are all making a much bigger impact than we realise. If you would like to find out more about Cathy and how to discover and embrace your purpose alongside being a Mama please visit https://www.cathyspooner.com.au/. This includes 15% off The Conscious Mother Online Course, using the code happymama as mentioned in this episode.

If you would also like a deeper understanding of matresence and how we support women differently, the Mama Rising facilitator training opens just once a year. For your invitation and all details you can find out more at https://mamarising.net/open/.

 

Transcripts

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Welcome to the Happy Mama Movement Podcast.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I'm Amy Taylor-Kabbaz.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I would like to start by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Aura nation

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

on which this podcast is recorded as the traditional custodians of this land.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And pay my respects to the elders past, present and emerging.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And as this podcast is dedicated to the wisdom and knowledge of motherhood, I

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

would like to acknowledge the mothers of this land, the elders, their wisdom, their

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

knowing and my own elders and teachers.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Welcome back Mamas this week on the podcast.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I'm speaking with Mama of three and author Cathy Spooner about her

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

new book, conscious motherhood.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And what does that mean?

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

What does it mean to be a conscious mother?

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

After our conversation, I can say very clearly, it's not what you think.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

It isn't about being perfectly aware in every moment.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

It's not been a guru of motherhood consciously moving through your

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

day, aware of everybody's needs and what you need to be doing.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

No, the way that Cathy explains to me and we talk about in this episode,

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

being a conscious mother is being in the imperfect beauty of motherhood.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

It's about being aware of your thoughts and feelings.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And even if you can't catch yourself from the messy moments, it's been able to

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

step into a space of reflecting on those later and finding the beauty of them.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I loved this conversation with Cathy.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I know you will too.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And at the end, she has a special offer for you, but please listen to

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

this with love and openness because, really the beauty of this stage in our

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

life is how imperfect we are in it.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Enjoy.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Cathy welcome to the podcast.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I am holding in my hands your recent book, Conscious Motherhood, which I

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

have loved reading and exploring and getting to know your story even more.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So thank you for being here.

Cathy Spooner:

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So let's start at the beginning.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

As I seem to say at every episode, what was your expectations of motherhood

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

when you were going into motherhood, what did you think it would be like?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, it's a great place to start, really.

Cathy Spooner:

I think like so many women, I was, I was ready to be a Mum.

Cathy Spooner:

And I, have a nurturing nature.

Cathy Spooner:

I was just like, my expectation was that this was going to be probably not so much

Cathy Spooner:

challenging until the kids were older.

Cathy Spooner:

Like that was my perception.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, like when you've got these crazy, like 10 year olds

Cathy Spooner:

running around, it's really intense.

Cathy Spooner:

Or when they're teenagers it's full on.

Cathy Spooner:

And so walking into motherhood, I felt like those early

Cathy Spooner:

years were going to be easy.

Cathy Spooner:

I was like, I've got this.

Cathy Spooner:

Like, I can love with everything I've got.

Cathy Spooner:

This is going to be fine.

Cathy Spooner:

Maybe there'll be some sleepless nights, all that sort of stuff.

Cathy Spooner:

And yeah, I mean, it's, it's quite the enormous shift in perspective

Cathy Spooner:

when you're actually in it.

Cathy Spooner:

It's like, hang on a minute, nothing that I felt this was gonna be like

Cathy Spooner:

is actually the majority of this.

Cathy Spooner:

Like, it's the reality of raising a human and navigating your own

Cathy Spooner:

emotions and growth through that transition is something that's almost

Cathy Spooner:

feels in hindsight, I'm like, gosh, I wish showing you what I know now.

Cathy Spooner:

But at the time it felt impossible.

Cathy Spooner:

I was like, how could, anyone, actually prepared me for

Cathy Spooner:

this cause I'm so unprepared.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Mm.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And how did that manifest?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That lack of preparation that almost, I hate to say it so bluntly, but

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

that misunderstanding in a way of what early motherhood looks like

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and, and will feel like how did that manifest your in your experience?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

So for me, for my first son, I had a traumatic birth and

Cathy Spooner:

just went on life afterwards.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, I just was like, I'm a new Mum, this is really full on, but like,

Cathy Spooner:

number one baby in hindsight for me was actually not as challenging as number two.

Cathy Spooner:

And so with number one, I faced all those same challenges as everyone,

Cathy Spooner:

you know, like, oh my gosh, the sleep deprivation is next level.

Cathy Spooner:

Who am I amongst all of this?

Cathy Spooner:

Like, I feel like I've just completely lost myself in being his Mum.

Cathy Spooner:

But my massive challenge for me came with the birth of my second son.

Cathy Spooner:

And, after he was born, I was diagnosed with depression, anxiety, and PTSD

Cathy Spooner:

from the first birth, which I actually didn't know that I'd had at the time.

Cathy Spooner:

And I put the pregnancy, I felt, you know, pretty terrible during

Cathy Spooner:

the pregnancy, but I put all of it down to hormones, like most people.

Cathy Spooner:

And I was like, you know, it's normal to feel sad every day.

Cathy Spooner:

Well, actually, no, it's not really super normal to feel like that all the time.

Cathy Spooner:

So, it really rattled me that second birth and the subsequent

Cathy Spooner:

months and years in fact, after that.

Cathy Spooner:

And so much of it, I did a lot of work with obviously like psychologists,

Cathy Spooner:

but a lot of my own inner work.

Cathy Spooner:

And just,

Cathy Spooner:

really, I didn't actually look outside of myself.

Cathy Spooner:

I didn't listen to a lot of podcasts or read a lot of books at the time.

Cathy Spooner:

I just felt like to get through this, I have to just come back in here.

Cathy Spooner:

Because that image that we talked about of like how motherhood,

Cathy Spooner:

you know, my expectation of it, I felt like I could not have been

Cathy Spooner:

any further away from that space.

Cathy Spooner:

I just felt overwhelmed.

Cathy Spooner:

I was always anxious.

Cathy Spooner:

I felt like I was failing my kids.

Cathy Spooner:

I felt ashamed.

Cathy Spooner:

I was like, oh my gosh, like, everybody has got this sorted

Cathy Spooner:

and here I am falling apart.

Cathy Spooner:

Which is so not the reality.

Cathy Spooner:

We know that so many women experience mental health issues,

Cathy Spooner:

but also challenges with motherhood.

Cathy Spooner:

And we often don't hear people talking about it outside of sleepless

Cathy Spooner:

nights and babies who can't poop.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, it's kind of like that story doesn't get told very often.

Cathy Spooner:

So those years were the, the hardest for me.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And when was that?

Cathy Spooner:

So my son is eight, this second son.

Cathy Spooner:

So I've got a 10, eight and five year old.

Cathy Spooner:

So yeah, the, the really challenging time was when my second son was, was born.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And then you had a third baby.

Cathy Spooner:

She was a surprise.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So many of the third babies are.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Mine too, I thought I was done.

Cathy Spooner:

I know they always have their own plan.

Cathy Spooner:

Don't they?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so carrying that experience of the first two, but then also

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

from what I hear doing so much of that work in that space after his birth, what

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

was your experience with the third baby?

Cathy Spooner:

It was completely different.

Cathy Spooner:

Everything about it felt different.

Cathy Spooner:

Her birth felt different.

Cathy Spooner:

Those early days with her was so different.

Cathy Spooner:

I felt a much stronger connection to her.

Cathy Spooner:

Um, and I just softened into motherhood.

Cathy Spooner:

I'd learned so much about myself.

Cathy Spooner:

I was much more grounded in the experience of motherhood that I

Cathy Spooner:

sort of when she was there and we had those challenging moments.

Cathy Spooner:

I was able to just kind of soften and be like, okay, this is just all part of it.

Cathy Spooner:

And this is a phase and this is a moment and this is not

Cathy Spooner:

gonna be like this forever.

Cathy Spooner:

And so it was a lot easier for me to not get caught up in some

Cathy Spooner:

of those really big feelings.

Cathy Spooner:

I definitely had challenges.

Cathy Spooner:

I think when you've experienced mental health issues, there's always this

Cathy Spooner:

little voice in the back of your head.

Cathy Spooner:

Like every time you're really upset, you think, oh my God, is it coming back?

Cathy Spooner:

Like, is this gonna take over my life again?

Cathy Spooner:

And that fear of falling back into like depressional, severe anxiety, that fear

Cathy Spooner:

in itself can be just crippling for women.

Cathy Spooner:

So there was always that in the back of my mind, but same thing.

Cathy Spooner:

I was like, you know, , this is not as bad as it was, five years ago.

Cathy Spooner:

And I've come through that.

Cathy Spooner:

Like that was a lot worse then.

Cathy Spooner:

And so I guess sometimes when we go through those challenges too, and you

Cathy Spooner:

learn about yourself and you learn about motherhood and how the reality

Cathy Spooner:

of it and how beautiful and wonderful it is alongside how incredibly like

Cathy Spooner:

challenging and heartbreaking sometimes, you know, it can feel the emotions

Cathy Spooner:

we go through can feel so intense.

Cathy Spooner:

So I guess it's that, you know, once we learn that we just, yeah, I

Cathy Spooner:

really softened into that third one.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I love that it's such a beautiful way to

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

describe it, softening into it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Because in those early experiences of motherhood.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It is so hard, in terms of your body's hard, everything's restricted.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It's this energy of, oh my God, what am I doing?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I'm getting this wrong.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And it's this real hardness within yourself and around you

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and everything you look at.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so when you then describe the opposite of that is this softening.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You can feel the difference you can feel, yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

But I also hear in you, a belief in yourself the third time.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I got through that, so I'll be okay.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I think that's the beauty of, of this experience, isn't it?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That it brings us to our fricking knees and breaks us

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

over and over and over again.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

But on the other side of it, God, do you know your strength?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And isn't it incredible how when we're in the middle of that process, we probably

Cathy Spooner:

couldn't feel any more disconnected from our power or, you know, we don't feel

Cathy Spooner:

courageous, we don't feel strong, we don't feel like we can get through it.

Cathy Spooner:

But it's like when we're in the middle of it, that's where we're fostering all

Cathy Spooner:

of you know, belief and power, you know.

Cathy Spooner:

And it's not until we just take that one step outside of there

Cathy Spooner:

that we go, oh, hang on a minute, actually, yeah, okay I can do this.

Cathy Spooner:

And it doesn't necessarily make everything easier.

Cathy Spooner:

I think what it does is it reminds us that there is that

Cathy Spooner:

light at the end of the tunnel.

Cathy Spooner:

It doesn't take away the challenging or the hard moments,

Cathy Spooner:

but it just reminds us that like, I've been through this or worse.

Cathy Spooner:

And I know that that light is there and that it's gonna get easier

Cathy Spooner:

and I'll walk out of this and look back and go, oh yeah, that's right.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm pretty awesome.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That's it, and in that place, it's really also about

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

making sure that you surround yourself with the people, the tools, the things

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

you need to move out of that place.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You talk a lot in your book about, you know, it's almost the holistic

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

team we need, to move through these challenges of matresence.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

We're not meant to do it on our own, we hear that all the time.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

But this is also about sometimes needing antidepressants, sometimes

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

needing a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a hypnotherapist, a kinesiologist,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

a massage therapist, whatever it is.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Like that is the strength in this as well, isn't it?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And there's all, it's that concept of, you know, when everyone says,

Cathy Spooner:

oh, it takes a, a village to raise a child, and then you see that quote

Cathy Spooner:

where people say it actually takes a village to, to raise a mother.

Cathy Spooner:

Because we walk into this as women, with like you said, those expectations.

Cathy Spooner:

And we also think that we can do it all on our own.

Cathy Spooner:

And it's nothing that we've ever experienced before, and it's

Cathy Spooner:

this whole new process for us.

Cathy Spooner:

And we kind of just get thrust into it.

Cathy Spooner:

Because once the baby arrives, it's like that split second

Cathy Spooner:

moment and everything changes.

Cathy Spooner:

Nothing's ever the same after that.

Cathy Spooner:

And so having that support team and being able to ask for help, that is hard.

Cathy Spooner:

Like I found that incredibly hard and sometimes I still do.

Cathy Spooner:

But, you need a network and you need to be able to say, you know what?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, I do need to see a psychologist and yes, for everyone's

Cathy Spooner:

health, maybe I do need to take antidepressants at the moment.

Cathy Spooner:

Or yes, I need to go and have a massage, that's not a treat that is imperative for

Cathy Spooner:

me to be able to fill my cup and be able to operate with a functioning nervous

Cathy Spooner:

system and you know, all those things.

Cathy Spooner:

So yeah, the support team and the village is just as imperative for

Cathy Spooner:

the Mum as the child, isn't it?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It so is.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I really appreciated in your book, how honest you were around

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

the struggles with your body.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I think in the Mama Rising training, we talk a lot about the different

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

ways matresence affects us.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You know, for some women, it will be their lack of identity in their career.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

For others, it will be a real separation in their relationship,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

that is the real point of pain and struggle.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And for so many, this, and I'm sorry if I'm using the incorrect

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

word, please correct me with the, the way I was reading it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It was a real disconnect from your body.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You describe beautifully that, you know, you were getting ready to go out and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

you're looking at your wardrobe and you're trying on all the different outfits

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and even the fail safe dress, you know, we've all got that fail safe outfit.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Like no matter what, no matter how shitty I feel bloated,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I feel PMs, whatever it is.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

There's that one thing that always makes me feel good.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And even that you put on.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And it just made you feel awful.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And you went into the bathroom and looked in the mirror and you like, it

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

actually made me emotional reading it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It was beautifully described of just looking in the mirror and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

thinking what, what happened to this, to this body that I have.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so you explained beautifully the mental and emotional challenges,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

but also this is a very physical challenge for so many women as well.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Our bodies won't ever be the same.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And they are deeply imperfect after childbirth and motherhood, but to find our

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

way back to looking at ourselves in the mirror and seeing the beauty in there, I

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

know you say in the book that you, this is obviously still a work in progress, but

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

for everyone who's listening and that is their source of pain, this feeling of, oh,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I just don't feel good in my skin anymore.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Can you talk to that?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

For me.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up because it really

Cathy Spooner:

is a work in progress for me.

Cathy Spooner:

And it is, it is such a common thing for so many women at some point to

Cathy Spooner:

come out of pregnancy and those early years, and just feel like they don't

Cathy Spooner:

feel comfortable in their own skin.

Cathy Spooner:

And I think sometimes we look at it really surface level, like, oh, it's just,

Cathy Spooner:

you should love your body, how it is.

Cathy Spooner:

And your body's amazing and eat the right food and do

Cathy Spooner:

exercise and you'll feel better.

Cathy Spooner:

For me personally, I feel like it's a really, it's a

Cathy Spooner:

very deep experience for me.

Cathy Spooner:

And if I'm unable to look in the mirror and feel comfortable with who I see the

Cathy Spooner:

physical body that I am in, although it is not all of me, it is a huge part of

Cathy Spooner:

me and it feels connected to my soul.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm not separate.

Cathy Spooner:

I feel like this part of my body is this part, but they're entwined.

Cathy Spooner:

If one's off the other one feels off.

Cathy Spooner:

So, for me over the years, I'll be really honest.

Cathy Spooner:

I have tried all the, like, I just wanna love my stretch marks and I just wanna

Cathy Spooner:

like, love that, you know, my, my bottom's not firm and like all of the things and my

Cathy Spooner:

saggy boobs and all the, you know, stuff.

Cathy Spooner:

And it has, it's not just like an on switch for me.

Cathy Spooner:

I can't just say, oh no, that's because I had beautiful babies.

Cathy Spooner:

And I'm so grateful, cause if I didn't have them, my body

Cathy Spooner:

would, you know, it's worth it.

Cathy Spooner:

And I'm like, yeah, that's all true.

Cathy Spooner:

But flipping that switch is just not super easy for a lot of women.

Cathy Spooner:

So for me, learning to love myself on the outside has actually come as a secondary

Cathy Spooner:

part of loving myself on the inside.

Cathy Spooner:

If that makes sense.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Yes!

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

So the more I believe in myself, the more I am kind to myself

Cathy Spooner:

and show myself compassion.

Cathy Spooner:

And you know, if I'm not getting on the treadmill one day, or if I'm like

Cathy Spooner:

yelling at the kids and I'm just like really kind to myself and I look in

Cathy Spooner:

the mirror and I think I look horrible and tired and like a complete wreck.

Cathy Spooner:

I try to change that mindset and just talk with a lot more kindness

Cathy Spooner:

to myself and know that I'm giving this everything I've got.

Cathy Spooner:

And that it's actually okay, that I'm not always going to look or feel good.

Cathy Spooner:

But the more I foster that like inner self love, the easier it becomes

Cathy Spooner:

for me to look in the mirror and feel comfortable in my own skin.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Yes, because when we look in the mirror, we're still seeing

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

ourselves through the cultural story of what our body should look like.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so if we're going to try and accept the external, it has to

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

start with accepting the internal.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I freaking love that you said that, it is so true.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And also thank you for your honesty that it's not a switch

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

we just switch on or off.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You know, suddenly, we go from feeling like an alien inside our

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

skin, because none of this is what we thought would happen and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

we don't know how to get it back.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And actually we're never really gonna get it back to then suddenly

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

rubbing oil on our stretch marks and saying I'm so grateful.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It's not that easy.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And it's bit of spiritual bypassing if I can in my ranting stage for a second.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

The way that we tell women to just focus on their healthy

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

babies is spiritual bypassing.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Just be grateful for what you have.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

No, as you've said.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

My soul is connected to my body and my body is connected to my soul

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and I need to feel good in this.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So, yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Beautiful, it does need to be internal first.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And you're so right with spiritual bypassing like what it's really doing is

Cathy Spooner:

when you're saying to women, I know that it's a, it's a positive mindset, right?

Cathy Spooner:

I get the principles all for that sort of thing.

Cathy Spooner:

But what you're saying to a woman, when you say, be grateful for your stretch

Cathy Spooner:

marks, because you have your baby, it's a complete dismissal of her feelings.

Cathy Spooner:

It's completely dismissing how she feels about her body and implying

Cathy Spooner:

that you're not allowed to feel bad about, your body after having babies.

Cathy Spooner:

So it's this, it's got this real manipulative undertone to it, doesn't it?

Cathy Spooner:

In some way, which sounds awful because I know it's coming from a place of,

Cathy Spooner:

like, we just want you to feel good and have a good mindset and be positive.

Cathy Spooner:

But it's the underlying feeling of when someone says that to me, is that

Cathy Spooner:

well, if I still can't love my stretch marks while I'm rubbing oil on them.

Cathy Spooner:

And does that make me a bad Mum?

Cathy Spooner:

Cause I should just be grateful, cause I've got a baby and

Cathy Spooner:

this is the price that I pay.

Cathy Spooner:

So then it creates another story, doesn't it?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That's it exactly.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And also show us the images in the ads of women with stretch marks, then maybe

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

we will start seeing them differently.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

But when the cultural assumption is still this perfect skin, all the

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

time, even post babies, then we can't just affirmation our way past this.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I just thought it was a really, you know, obviously day in, day

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

out, I live and breathe this.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I read so many books around motherhood and the experience of matresence

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and the culture around motherhood.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And, you know, I'm always looking for those things that

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

stand out a bit differently.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That's told in a different way or an honesty that I get

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

goosebumps or tears around.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Cause I'm like, yeah, that's what we should be saying.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I thought that the way you have honestly portrayed this, uh,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

perhaps, I would even describe it as this internal battle of

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

accepting the imperfection of this.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Accepting that you got postnatal depression.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Accepting that the birth was traumatic.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Accepting that your body doesn't look the way it was.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It's just this real honesty around, I had to see that this was imperfect and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

not when I thought, but that's okay.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And there's so much power in that acceptance, but I think that

Cathy Spooner:

acceptance isn't something that we necessarily have to aim for.

Cathy Spooner:

I feel like it's a result of a process that you go through and

Cathy Spooner:

at the end, that's what happens.

Cathy Spooner:

I think sometimes when you say to people, you it's just accept it.

Cathy Spooner:

Like, yes, that helps when we're in those moments and you have to let

Cathy Spooner:

go and just be like, okay, this is, this is how it is, I need to let go.

Cathy Spooner:

But I do think real acceptance of our experience in motherhood and as a woman

Cathy Spooner:

comes from living it and being in it and then having that realisation at the other

Cathy Spooner:

side of just being like, yeah, actually this isn't, I don't like the word perfect.

Cathy Spooner:

It's like more the way you describe it,

Cathy Spooner:

it's like the imperfectness of all of this is exactly how it's supposed to be.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And that's the beautiful thing about this.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So when you say conscious motherhood, we hear so much about conscious parenting.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so it's really interesting to me that

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

you chose that word, Conscious.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Because when I read it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It's all about consciously aware of yourself.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

how would you explain what conscious motherhood is?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

I, I I'll be honest.

Cathy Spooner:

I, um, the name at first, I wasn't sure.

Cathy Spooner:

Because I feel a little bit triggered sometimes by the term conscious

Cathy Spooner:

parenting, because I think that that, gosh it's another thing that we think

Cathy Spooner:

that we're supposed to be doing and another area that we could potentially

Cathy Spooner:

fail in, or we're not doing it right.

Cathy Spooner:

And so there's all that expectation that comes with the term conscious.

Cathy Spooner:

But when I wrote this book, I really felt like the underlying theme

Cathy Spooner:

was that I just wanted women to be able to look at their own unique

Cathy Spooner:

experience of motherhood with a really compassionate, forgiving, and open mind.

Cathy Spooner:

Because often all of the challenges that we have are either our perception

Cathy Spooner:

that we have of ourselves and how it should be, which is fed by society or

Cathy Spooner:

family or our upbringing, our personal experiences, all that sort of stuff.

Cathy Spooner:

But so many of the biggest challenges we have are just being able to look

Cathy Spooner:

at our own unique story and be able to be comfortable with the fact

Cathy Spooner:

that this one size fits all model of motherhood actually doesn't work.

Cathy Spooner:

So for you to find peace in your experience as a Mum, for you to find,

Cathy Spooner:

um, I guess like that balance where everything feels good, where you

Cathy Spooner:

feel like motherhood feels nice and aligned and you feel connected and

Cathy Spooner:

liberated as a woman at the same time.

Cathy Spooner:

That's a really hard place to find, but we're always working towards

Cathy Spooner:

having more of those moments.

Cathy Spooner:

Right.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I was just thinking that when you were saying that I'm

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

like, gee, I get that every now and then

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, that in itself is the conscious perspective on this.

Cathy Spooner:

It's like, we actually can't embody all of that all of the time.

Cathy Spooner:

So looking at this with kindness and acceptance, and just saying

Cathy Spooner:

that motherhood will be moments.

Cathy Spooner:

It will be moments where aiming for those really connected, beautiful

Cathy Spooner:

moments, but we're also accepting that in between those moments life gets real.

Cathy Spooner:

And raising human beings to their greatest potential is no easy feat.

Cathy Spooner:

And we're raising ourselves into motherhood too at the same time.

Cathy Spooner:

So, um, that was a bit of a long answer, but I it's kind of, yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Absolutely.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I'm glad you said that because again, conscious parenting, motherhood,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

relationships, I've read a lot about conscious relationships myself recently.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It assumes that underneath there is an unconscious way of doing it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And then we get really scared that if we're not conscious all the time,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

then we're this up again, deeply ingrained in great intentions.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so many beautiful insights and practices, but in this podcast,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and I know in your work and in so many of these spaces, we just don't

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

want Mums to feel like this is one other thing they're gonna get wrong.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And if you're conscious all the time, if you yell, if you look in the mirror

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and say awful things to yourself, if there's a disconnect happening anywhere,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

it's not because you're unconscious.

Cathy Spooner:

Mm.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You know, in fact you're aware of it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That's consciousness, you picked it up, you noticed.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I felt like shit today because I said that thing to myself.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That's conscious awareness, isn't it?

Cathy Spooner:

Mm.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, definitely.

Cathy Spooner:

And that's the best way to describe it.

Cathy Spooner:

Sometimes we're always aiming for that.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, this goal of like the perfect expression of what a woman or a mother

Cathy Spooner:

might look like, but the perfect expression of who you are is being true

Cathy Spooner:

to yourself, being true to your family and having awareness around the fact

Cathy Spooner:

that we're all imperfect, we're all gonna make mistakes, whether it's in

Cathy Spooner:

motherhood or relationships or whatever it is, and being able to accept that.

Cathy Spooner:

Okay, there's gonna be times when I make mistakes.

Cathy Spooner:

There's gonna be times when I choose the wrong path.

Cathy Spooner:

I can see that I have conscious awareness of that.

Cathy Spooner:

And now what do I do about it?

Cathy Spooner:

Do I need to make an apology?

Cathy Spooner:

Do I need to repair this situation?

Cathy Spooner:

Do I need to do something to fix my heart.

Cathy Spooner:

Um, and that conscious awareness is where I think we should be aiming

Cathy Spooner:

instead of this little perfect image of what it should look like.

Cathy Spooner:

But I just want to welcome more moments into my day where I am able

Cathy Spooner:

to go, oh, little light bulb moment.

Cathy Spooner:

Okay.

Cathy Spooner:

This is what I need.

Cathy Spooner:

This is what the situation needs.

Cathy Spooner:

This is what my kids need, whatever it is.

Cathy Spooner:

But just having more of those moments.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So in a practical way, what does that look like?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So a Mamas listening right now and she really wants to

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

be able to pick up on that.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

She wants to be more conscious and aware.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

She recognises that, you know, that feeling of failure or disconnection

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

or whatever is in her life.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

What are some things that you share and work for you in terms of being able

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

to tap back into that during the day?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

So there's a couple of things that I use throughout the day, or, you know, have

Cathy Spooner:

over the years and they're a little bit dependent on the head space that I'm in.

Cathy Spooner:

So if I'm feeling really good.

Cathy Spooner:

Like I'm having a great week, generally speaking.

Cathy Spooner:

There's a few ups and downs, but I'm not in a really low space.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm feeling quite good.

Cathy Spooner:

I'll often have the capacity in the moment.

Cathy Spooner:

Pretty much straight afterwards to be able to go.

Cathy Spooner:

Oh, okay, that's not how I would've liked to have handled that.

Cathy Spooner:

I didn't really need to yell.

Cathy Spooner:

I was a bit reactive.

Cathy Spooner:

Sometimes it comes, I can even hear my intuition sometimes.

Cathy Spooner:

Like I can feel, it might be the rage building up in me or something

Cathy Spooner:

like that, and I can feel it.

Cathy Spooner:

And then I hear this little voice sometimes it's there in the moment.

Cathy Spooner:

And it'll just say to me, just calm down.

Cathy Spooner:

But if I'm super elevated and I, my nervous system is a bit fried after

Cathy Spooner:

a couple of months of dealing with all of the things in motherhood.

Cathy Spooner:

I don't hear the intuitive nudge.

Cathy Spooner:

I often can't be conscious even straight after the fact.

Cathy Spooner:

So a couple of things that I have learned over the years is that it's actually

Cathy Spooner:

okay for me to walk away, when I need my moment to recalibrate and be able to

Cathy Spooner:

open space for that conscious awareness.

Cathy Spooner:

Because it's always there.

Cathy Spooner:

But when we're in full Mum mode and there's all the things happening,

Cathy Spooner:

we're like our nervous systems are just running on their basics, right.

Cathy Spooner:

This whole fight or flight, or we're just, we're in survival mode or we're

Cathy Spooner:

on autopilot where we're going through the motions, but we're not super

Cathy Spooner:

connected to anything that's really going on because, we've got probably 50

Cathy Spooner:

tabs open in our head and we are just doing all the things in front of us.

Cathy Spooner:

So when it's like that, I've learned that I need to, even if my kids are

Cathy Spooner:

upset, like sometimes my daughter and this triggers me even saying it out

Cathy Spooner:

loud, but sometimes my daughter she'll get upset cause something's happened.

Cathy Spooner:

And I'm really elevated.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm really triggered all the things are happening.

Cathy Spooner:

She's upset.

Cathy Spooner:

She's like, I just wanna cuddle.

Cathy Spooner:

And sometimes I have to say right now, sweetheart, Mummy just needs a minute.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm gonna come back for that cuddle.

Cathy Spooner:

But right now I just need a minute.

Cathy Spooner:

And that's one of the hardest things you can do as a parent is to place your

Cathy Spooner:

own needs over those of your child.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I've just thrown, like my hands in the air for those listening.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I'm like, yes, hallelujah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Yes.

Cathy Spooner:

And it's so hard, but then it's like, well, if I don't

Cathy Spooner:

learn how to do this, I don't ever open up space to be able to say, to

Cathy Spooner:

invite that conscious perspective.

Cathy Spooner:

How can I think from a grounded space that's like reasonable and focusing

Cathy Spooner:

on all of us equally and fair and what everyone needs in any given situation.

Cathy Spooner:

If I'm stressed, overwhelmed, like heightened emotions, nervous system fried.

Cathy Spooner:

Like you can't get into a conscious perspective when you're like that.

Cathy Spooner:

So I've learned as a self, like self-care, I just sometimes have to say, I'm sorry.

Cathy Spooner:

Mummy comes first in this moment.

Cathy Spooner:

I don't word it like that.

Cathy Spooner:

It would always be like, I'm coming back for that cuddle, but right now Mummy

Cathy Spooner:

just needs to take a breathing break.

Cathy Spooner:

And so I would just go for a few minutes and just get my stuff

Cathy Spooner:

together and then come back.

Cathy Spooner:

And then when I come back, then we can start to talk about,

Cathy Spooner:

okay, how do we repair this?

Cathy Spooner:

Mummy's lost it, she's yelled when she wished that she didn't.

Cathy Spooner:

So then we start the repair process from there.

Cathy Spooner:

And after the repair process has happened, what I think then happens is I feel like

Cathy Spooner:

every moment that I make what feels like a decision that's good and aligned in

Cathy Spooner:

my heart, whether it's like motherhood or making a decision for myself or

Cathy Spooner:

nurturing the kids through a process.

Cathy Spooner:

Whenever I make that decision in my heart I've and it feels good and aligned, it

Cathy Spooner:

feels like that's when I get the aha of like that conscious moment comes in when

Cathy Spooner:

I'm like, oh, see how you handled that.

Cathy Spooner:

That's you know, like that's, that's what you are looking for.

Cathy Spooner:

That moment is what you're looking for.

Cathy Spooner:

You're not looking for the moment where you can click your fingers and

Cathy Spooner:

solve the sibling rivalry, and you can click your fingers and stop the

Cathy Spooner:

emotional outburst or whatever it is.

Cathy Spooner:

It's actually, the moment sometimes takes longer than Mums want it to doesn't it.

Cathy Spooner:

We, we need a fast fix and sometimes that

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

Conscious awareness.

Cathy Spooner:

And that conscious perspective comes after we're able to ground ourselves

Cathy Spooner:

and come back and then look at it and say, actually, I'm not a bad Mum.

Cathy Spooner:

If I was a bad Mum, I would not even be aware that I've potentially

Cathy Spooner:

done something that's upset my kids or not done the right thing.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, like a, a good Mum has this conscious awareness and she

Cathy Spooner:

will come back and she will do all the things that she can to repair

Cathy Spooner:

them, to love, do whatever she has to do for herself and her kids, so.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I just want to point out in that story about with your

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

daughter, you know, the, the feminist in me loves that story because what we're

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

showing the next generation, especially of women, but boys as well, that, you know,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

you don't just have to give yourself.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You don't just swallow your own emotions and give yourself to

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

someone else to soothe them.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It comes from a place of checking in with yourself first and my God do our

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

girls and women need to know that.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I said, as our and our boys as well, but, you know, having studied

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

so much of why we silence ourselves as mothers, why we put ourselves second,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

why we don't prioritise our own emotions and needs, it starts from what we are

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

taught and see in those around us.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So when you say, I will 100% be there with you, I just need a moment first.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You're teaching her, she's allowed to say that to the world too.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I will do what you need me to do, but I just need to fill myself first.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Like I was doing my little hand in the air at that story.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I was like, yes, this is what we're teaching them.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And this is why.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

This is why it's going to change because when we are conscious as

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Mums, not some guru mother that never yells, but conscious of

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

our energy and our needs, then we change the next generation as well.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And it's, I think sometimes we underestimate the power in us just being

Cathy Spooner:

ourselves in front of our children.

Cathy Spooner:

Because it, like you said, it gives them permission to ask

Cathy Spooner:

for the space that they need.

Cathy Spooner:

It gives them permission to see that people have faults.

Cathy Spooner:

I mean, in those early years when I was in a really bad depressive state,

Cathy Spooner:

and I talk a little bit about this in my book, I remember wanting to hide

Cathy Spooner:

away when I was crying, because I didn't want their kids to see me sad.

Cathy Spooner:

I thought, oh my gosh, I'm gonna mess them up.

Cathy Spooner:

They're just gonna be traumatised, if they see me like this.

Cathy Spooner:

And, over time, I think when you have severe depression, it's a bit hard to hide

Cathy Spooner:

it all the time, especially when you've got really little kids at home with you.

Cathy Spooner:

And I remember this one experience with my son and he came to me and he brought

Cathy Spooner:

me a little artwork that he'd done.

Cathy Spooner:

He'd created like a board game on a piece of paper and he would've

Cathy Spooner:

been like maybe four at the time.

Cathy Spooner:

And he gave it to me and he said, Mummy, this is the game

Cathy Spooner:

that will make you feel better.

Cathy Spooner:

And at the time I burst into tears because his love was just, you know,

Cathy Spooner:

that was just so profound in that moment.

Cathy Spooner:

And, later that day, I remember feeling like, oh my gosh, Cath, this is exactly

Cathy Spooner:

what you shouldn't be doing to your kids.

Cathy Spooner:

You shouldn't be crying so that they feel like they need to support you.

Cathy Spooner:

You're traumatising your children right now.

Cathy Spooner:

What are you doing?

Cathy Spooner:

Get it together.

Cathy Spooner:

And I went into this shame spiral.

Cathy Spooner:

And it wasn't until later that I thought about it.

Cathy Spooner:

Probably months later, and I thought, no, you know what.

Cathy Spooner:

He sees my sadness.

Cathy Spooner:

And not only does he now understand that it's okay to have really big feelings,

Cathy Spooner:

but he now also understands how to be compassionate towards another human being.

Cathy Spooner:

And that was like life changing for me.

Cathy Spooner:

It was just like, I need to show up 100% as I am in front of my children.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm gonna do my best not to hide away.

Cathy Spooner:

Cause sometimes it feels like it's good to hide away and that's okay too.

Cathy Spooner:

But just to make sure that they see.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Mm,

Cathy Spooner:

Humaness in all of its realness, you know, and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

All of its imperfect beauty.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, exactly.

Cathy Spooner:

Yep.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Wow.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And also see you rise from that.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

you know, it's a core example of, yes, Mum was sad and Mum got a bit lost,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

but then Mum found herself again.

Cathy Spooner:

Yep.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And that's, that's what this is all about.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And we're all making a much bigger impact than we than we realise.

Cathy Spooner:

I think.

Cathy Spooner:

All of us Mamas need to just be so much kinder to ourselves and stop focusing

Cathy Spooner:

on how a perfect Mum looks like.

Cathy Spooner:

A Mum that doesn't yell, or she's got a great body, or the kids are

Cathy Spooner:

doing all the activities and smashing it at school and all the things.

Cathy Spooner:

But what you should be focusing on is how you show up as a human,

Cathy Spooner:

because that's the greatest impact that you'll have on your kids.

Cathy Spooner:

They take in everything, all of it.

Cathy Spooner:

And they wanna see you cry, they need to see you be angry, they need to see

Cathy Spooner:

you make mistakes and have to say, sorry, they need to see all of it.

Cathy Spooner:

They don't need a perfect version.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, as much as it makes me cringe sometimes when my daughter calls my

Cathy Spooner:

belly, the donut belly, she makes her little belly like squeezes it together.

Cathy Spooner:

She's like, I've got a donut belly, like Mum.

Cathy Spooner:

And squeezes her her, um, belly button together.

Cathy Spooner:

It makes me cringe.

Cathy Spooner:

I have still have moments.

Cathy Spooner:

And then I think, you know what I'm showing her that body image.

Cathy Spooner:

She does no attachment to body image.

Cathy Spooner:

And the more that we can just, whether it's that, or like I said,

Cathy Spooner:

everything, the more we just show up as real as we can possibly be.

Cathy Spooner:

That's how we be good Mums, that's what I think.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I totally agree with you, Cathy.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Wow.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

What a beautiful conversation.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Uh, I meant it when I said the honesty in your book and the way that you are

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

really vulnerable and showing the, all the different colours of this experience.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

The dark murky colors and the bright light, the beauty of it all,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I really, really appreciated it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So you have a special offer for the listeners of this podcast, if you

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

would like to just tell everybody about that and where they can find it and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I'll share it also in the show notes.

Cathy Spooner:

Sure.

Cathy Spooner:

Uh, yeah, I have a new online course launching in August.

Cathy Spooner:

It's called the conscious mother.

Cathy Spooner:

There's that, that name again.

Cathy Spooner:

And it's a self-paced course that it's all online obviously.

Cathy Spooner:

And, I want you to go into this course and go through a process.

Cathy Spooner:

This isn't like a soft and fluffy.

Cathy Spooner:

This is a let's find out your biggest barriers to being a connected

Cathy Spooner:

and fulfilled mother and woman.

Cathy Spooner:

And let's slowly peel back those layers.

Cathy Spooner:

Let's do some journaling work.

Cathy Spooner:

Let's really start to go on a bit of a, a journey within yourself so that

Cathy Spooner:

you can find that conscious mother.

Cathy Spooner:

You can open up those little pockets of time in your day where you do

Cathy Spooner:

have this conscious awareness.

Cathy Spooner:

Because when we can be kind to ourselves, we have a much

Cathy Spooner:

nicer experience of motherhood.

Cathy Spooner:

So, I would love to invite your listeners to, 15% off for

Cathy Spooner:

the course when it launches.

Cathy Spooner:

So they just need to use the code, happymama.

Cathy Spooner:

All one word, and that will give them a discount.

Cathy Spooner:

There's no timeframe on that either.

Cathy Spooner:

So just whenever people listen and wanna jump on over, they can have a look.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Amazing.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Thank you for that beautiful offer for everyone.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Thank you for this book and this conversation.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I so appreciated it.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, thank you so much, Amy.

Cathy Spooner:

It's always so lovely to chat with you and just be in your presence.

Cathy Spooner:

The work that you do is amazing and bringing all these women into the podcast.

Cathy Spooner:

I, I love listening.

Cathy Spooner:

It's great.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Thank you.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Thanks.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Beautiful.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I always love where these episodes weave and twist the conversations.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Where it takes us how it unfolds and this one was no different.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I loved the way that we explored what being a conscious mother is really about.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And really, again, breaking down this myth that we need to be perfect in it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

In fact, the beauty comes from the deep imperfection of all of it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You can find out about Cathy's work and that new program.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

She has the conscious mother website, cathyspooner.com.au.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And use the code happymama to get 15% off.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

All the details are in the show notes, of course, as well.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

As always, if there's anyone in your life that you would like to

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

send this podcast to please do that.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

This is how we change the stories for mothers is by sharing it with each other

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and jump on Instagram and let Cathy and I both know what resonated most out of

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