Teenage Dogs: Navigating the Challenges of Canine Adolescence with Behaviourist Daniel Shaw

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Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by

Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers

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who want to better understand and

connect with their canine companions.

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I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy,

and today we are diving into

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a phase that often catches.

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Dog guardians by surprise adolescents.

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Joining me is Daniel Shaw, clinical

animal behaviourist educator and

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founder of Animal Behaviour Kent.

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He's also the host of the

incredible A BK conference, which

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I'll be attending this summer.

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Daniel specialises in understanding

and supporting dogs through their

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developmental stages, and he's

here to help us navigate the

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emotional ups and downs of teenage

dogs without losing our sanity.

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If your young, young dog is testing

boundaries, forgetting their training,

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or suddenly acting like a different dog

altogether, this episode is for you.

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So grab a cup of tea, settle

in, and let's get started.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Welcome

back to The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappy.

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I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and

I'm so excited to bring you another

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episode of The Yappy Hour Today.

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Joining me this evening is Mr.

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Daniel Shaw.

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Hi Daniel.

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Welcome to the Yappy Hour.

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Hello.

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How are you doing?

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Daniel: Yeah, I'm good.

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Thank you.

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It is great to be here.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Good.

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Daniel: very exciting.

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Amazing podcast.

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You've had some amazing guests on, so,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: We,

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Daniel: yeah,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

have, and now you've joined that

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caliber of amazing guests, so I'm

excited to chat to you tonight.

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So Daniel I know that many of

our listeners are either going

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through adolescents with their

dog or they're still kind of

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recovering and getting over it.

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What first drew you to specializing in

this particular stage of development?

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Daniel: Well, I think,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I.

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Daniel: I wouldn't say I specialize

as such in terms of adolescents, but I

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Sure.

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Daniel: working with

adolescent dogs because I think

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Daniel: a special and amazing time.

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I think it's such a time where, you know,

you do see caregivers starting to kind

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of pull their hair out when they hit the

adolescence time because especially if

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you've got a dog from a puppy and you

know, you've been doing all this work,

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you've been going out with your trainer,

you've got all these amazing things set

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up and your, you know, you get, and I've

had this as well, you know, having my

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first dog from a puppy, you're kind of

thinking, wow, I'm, I'm a total pro here.

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And then adolescence comes along and

just throws everything out of whack

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and it's, it's, it's like, and you

think I've trained all these things and

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then suddenly the dog doesn't seem to

respond to any of these things anymore.

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And so it's, it's

fascinating and I think I.

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As humans, we are very quick to kind

of jump to blaming and jumping to kind

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of putting that on the individual when

they, you know, when our adolescent

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dog stops responding to all the

cues we've taught 'em, and stops

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being so easy going to manage and

suddenly is a bit more of a handful.

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We are very easy,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Daniel: easy for us as humans to kind of

say, you know, they're being disobedient,

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they're playing up, you know, they're

just, you know, they know what to do,

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but they just don't want to do it.

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All those things you commonly

hear about adolescent dogs.

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And, you know, what fascinates

me is actually into the,

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the biology of adolescents.

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What's going on in

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Daniel: of an adolescent dogs?

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What sort of changes are we seeing there

that's making these things, all this kind

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of world that they're living in, suddenly

seem a little bit different to them.

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Than it was

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Daniel: we start diving into it,

we see all these things changing in

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terms of the dog's perception, in

terms of the way the dog's valuing

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re resources, in terms of the dog's

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Daniel: as well.

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And I think we all see that, and

adolescent's judgment is sometimes

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not what we might consider the best.

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So it's, it's a

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Daniel: topic and I, and I love, do I

do love working with adolescent cases?

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Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

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Thank you for that.

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So, um, what do you think, or

why do you think, should I say,

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adolescence is often one of the most

challenging phases for dog guardians?

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Daniel: Yeah.

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So I think a little bit in terms of what

I touched on in the sense that you, you,

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you know, you, you are doing so well and

then that suddenly falls off the edge.

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And I think

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's like they suddenly just

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stop listening, don't they?

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They're like,

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Daniel: yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

selective hearing.

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Daniel: Yeah.

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And it's, it's, it is so difficult

and I think, so I think that

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frustration from the caregiver

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

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Daniel: is a big thing.

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And I think when we actually look into

that and when we kind of dive into

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kind of what's going on in adolescence,

we can kind of start to understand

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what might be going on for that dog.

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And I think that's a, a, a key element

to overcoming some of those difficulties.

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So I think understanding, for example,

that when a dog hits that adolescent

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stage, some of those emotional regions

of their brain, what we call the limbic

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system that's involved in helping a dog

process reinforces in the environment,

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things that feel great, things that feel

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Daniel: that they want to get away on

conflict related Behaviour, all those

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emotional elements, those kind of

beautiful emotional elements of your dog's

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life will be kind of hypercharged ready

to go as an adult dog's brain would be.

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But the difference that, that, that they

have to the kind of adult dog brain.

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Is the frontal part of their brain,

that region of the brain that's

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involved in kind of helping us

inhibit some of those responses,

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helping us make better judgments.

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So, you know, if for example, an adult

dog maybe finds a puppy a little bit

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irritating, maybe they're able to think,

okay, you know, this is a little bit

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irritating, but I'm not gonna respond to

that 'cause I recognize that's a puppy.

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Or if an adult dog recognizes that

there's something they want to go and

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chase, they're able, that inhibitive and

in sort of inhibit inhibition structure

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within their frontal cortex is able

to kind of say, yep, but I know if I

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don't chase that, then there's gonna

be some good outcomes for me later on.

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All that inhibition hardware that

they've got in the front of part

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of their brain is still very much

developing in the adolescent dog.

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Adolescent dog.

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So we

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Daniel: between

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

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Daniel: kind of frontal and

limbic structure that limbic

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firing in all cylinders.

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S causing that dog to experience emotions

in full and really kind of in, in,

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in a really strong way, but not being

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Daniel: actually have that

infrastructure in place to be able

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to kind of help the dog regulate some

of those, uh, emotional expressions.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating.

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And when I was sort of doing dog training

and you get to that sort of eight or

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nine month mark with some dogs and I

used to just say to the caregivers that

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the dog's not intending to be that way.

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And because the caregivers would be

like, oh, you know, they're just not

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listening or they're stubborn and, but

it would, they just got all this stuff

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going on, this brain fog and I just

used to just express that the dog's

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really not meaning to do be that way.

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Like they're just going through

obviously something and just trying

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to make them understand 'cause

they, the dog, the caregivers don't

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always understand what's going on.

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Daniel: Yeah, and I think what's really

interesting about that is because, you

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know, with, if we look at our typical

adolescent dog, you know, a dog built

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for survival or an animal that is good

at survival isn't typically what you'd

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associate with an adolescent dog.

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They're doing things, you know,

they're putting themselves in

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dangerous situations all the time.

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We have to be really hot on our

management, often for adolescent dogs.

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So it's kind of interesting to think about

from an evolutionary perspective, why.

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Is this change so important

in the adolescent dog, so

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important to evolution that this

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Daniel: stayed on?

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It's not something that's just kind

of been selected away because you'd

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think, you know, if we've got a

dog that's suddenly taking a ton of

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risks, then that's on an evolutionary

level, not gonna be very adaptive.

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And we're gonna kind of see

that trait of start to, to be

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cold over, over the generations.

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So it's interesting

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Daniel: occurs and it kind of tells us

that obviously there's something there

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about that that means that, that is

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Daniel: for the dog's development.

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That's really important for

the dog to then be able to be

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a healthy, well adjusted adult.

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And know, to be honest, especially in

terms of dogs as there's very limited

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research on adolescents, even in humans.

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We can't be sure why this

adolescence period occurs.

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But you know, kind of, people

often talk about this idea that.

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Actually having that change in physiology

that makes us, takes more risks, makes

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us become a little bit more independent,

is actually important for the survival

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of us as a species and for the, our

kind of, ability to adapt and live

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successfully in the world longer term

because we need to take some of those

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

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Daniel: to be able to learn and

learn to become a little bit more

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independent potentially as well.

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Have the opportunity to reproduce being

another potential reason for adolescents

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Daniel: also just, yeah, becoming a

more independent, well adjusted adult.

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And I think that's one thing I talk

about with caregivers that I work with

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a lot is actually, yeah, it is gonna be

difficult and they might not listen to

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things you say and it might feel like

they're being stubborn and they've got it

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in for you and all those kind of things

that you probably kind of even hear when

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we're talking about human adolescence.

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But

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Daniel: Going through that is so

important for the dog to be able

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to become a well adjusted adult.

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Become an independent adult

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Daniel: need to rely on their

caregiver the whole time.

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And actually

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

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Daniel: doing that and kind of getting

through that stage is gonna pay off.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

definitely.

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Thank you so much, Daniel.

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So we're gonna be moving on to our

first section, which is all about

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what happens during adolescence.

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So I find it absolutely fascinating.

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So I'm enjoying speaking to you about it.

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So please may give us a quick overview.

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I think you've, you've touched on

it a little bit, but what's actually

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happening in the dog's, brain and

body, children, adolescents, please.

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Daniel: Yeah.

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So, as you said, I've touched on a

little bit there in terms of we get that

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disparity between the emotional systems

of the brain starting to really mature.

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But that frontal region of

the brain not being so mature.

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So we haven't got that inhibitive

infrastructure there to help regulate

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some of those emotional systems.

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And we know that

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm,

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Daniel: region of the brain, for example,

is really key to things like extinction

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learning and extinction learning.

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Just for anyone that isn't

familiar with that term is,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

thank you.

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Daniel: a, a new type, a type of learning.

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And I think this is a, a

interesting thing about extinction.

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We often don't think of it

as a type of learning, but

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actually is a type of learning.

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It's learning

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Daniel: mean something anymore.

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So for example, if a dog has gone to

the park and gone to somewhere on their

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walk, wherever and seen something scary

another dog has approached them, chased

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them, made them feel really scared as

a, as a puppy or as as an adolescent.

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Then there may be some learning

that occurs that the dog thinks,

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oh, this is a scary place.

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I'm gonna be avoidant of this place.

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Now if, if that dog then goes back

there as a puppy, then they're quite

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likely to be able to engage in some

extinction learning if the, say, if

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the circumstances are set up correctly.

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And sometimes it can be a bit

more complicated than this, but

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I'm just simplifying things a

little bit for the sake of our

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's good.

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Daniel: they can

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Daniel: to the park, have a good

time there, and then we might get

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some extinction learning taking

place in that the dog learns that.

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Oh, actually, yeah, when I go to the park

most of the time, there isn't that bad.

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It isn't associated

with those bad outcomes.

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So that's actually an a,

a type of new learning.

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It's not unlearning that the park

was a bad place, it's learning that

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actually it is a safe place and

that thing doesn't occur anymore.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Daniel: Adolescents because that frontal

part of their brain isn't fully developed.

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Struggle more with that because

extinction learning requires, um,

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signals to go from the frontal part

of the brain to a region of the

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brain called the amygdala, which is a

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Mm-hmm.

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Daniel: this applies in, in

positive context as well.

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So it might be that, you know, you've

got a dog that starts counter surfing at

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adolescents and we say, do you know what?

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We're gonna be really hot on this.

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We are gonna not let

anything on the counter.

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And then, you know, three

months later, dog is still there

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checking the counter every day.

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Again, adolescents do struggle

with extinction learning.

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So that sort of thing is gonna

be harder during that stage.

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So that's one big change that occurs

that we see that, that, that change in

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kind of that brain development and that,

and that can change the way that the dog

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learns as well, being a little bit more

prone to making those initial connections

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and a little bit less prone to kind

of overwriting that in, in the form of

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extinction learning when we are trying to

teach the dog that a particular stimulus

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such as your counter and a particular

reward, such as being a nice snack on

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the counter, are no longer associated.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

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Thank you so much.

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So, and this is quite interesting,

this next question because it's

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quite fascinating in some respects.

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So some dogs seem to completely

sell through this stage, this phase.

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They're like, ah, we're done.

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But then there's others that

just seem to fall apart.

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Is there any reason that some do

really well with adolescents, but some

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like literally just fall to pieces?

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Daniel: I mean, that's the,

that's the question, isn't it?

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Uh, I think it's really,

really hard to know.

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There's, there's no particularly,

again in dogs, there's no of research

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or science that tells us why one

dog might be more prone to really

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struggling with that phase or not.

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I mean, I think

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

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Daniel: thing that we can point

to just from our experience is

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that, you know, it may be that one

dog has a bad experience during

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adolescence that goes wrong for them.

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But, you know, even within that, you

can have two dogs that have exactly

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the same experience during adolescence.

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It might be a new person coming

into the home, something like that.

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could have dogs that come in

with kind of, pretty much the

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same, same learning history.

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Pretty much right?

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And one, one comes in, one, a

person comes into the home, one dog

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freaks out, a person comes into the

home, one dog doesn't freak out.

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And, it's, it's so hard to say kind

of what, what makes that difference?

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And, and we're starting to learn more

about things like gene environment

308

: 00:14:14

interactions and the kind of

amazing field of epigenetics that

309

: 00:14:17

really kind of looks into that.

310

: 00:14:18

And that starts to point us towards

some potential answers for that.

311

: 00:14:23

So, for example, there are genetic

polymorphisms, so kind of just differences

312

: 00:14:28

in animals', genes that if a dog X has

those polymorphisms and has particular set

313

: 00:14:37

of circumstances during development are

more at risk of developing, behavioural

314

: 00:14:42

disorders longer term or individuals are

this coming from researching sort of rats

315

: 00:14:46

and humans rather than dogs specifically?

316

: 00:14:49

So we know that, you know, if you get

that wrong combination of genes then

317

: 00:14:53

goes in, then that animal goes in the

wrong environment where perhaps they are.

318

: 00:14:57

It's often unpredictable, um, potentially

kind of where there's a lot of fear

319

: 00:15:02

elicited during those early stages

environments that might then combined

320

: 00:15:07

with that genetic predisposition to

then put an animal at higher risk

321

: 00:15:12

of developing those Behavioural

dis dis difficulties longer term.

322

: 00:15:17

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

323

: 00:15:17

Daniel: and.

324

: 00:15:18

That sort of thing could be a plain dog.

325

: 00:15:20

So it could be that, you know,

you've got a dog that's got

326

: 00:15:22

that genetic predisposition,

maybe doesn't get the right

327

: 00:15:25

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

328

: 00:15:25

Daniel: from their mom, maybe doesn't

have the right experience in terms of

329

: 00:15:28

breeding, maybe doesn't get the right

start as a puppy or something like that.

330

: 00:15:33

That

331

: 00:15:33

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

332

: 00:15:34

Daniel: means that dog, when we

hit that adolescent stage, we

333

: 00:15:37

start actually seeing that present.

334

: 00:15:39

And I think that's one of the difficult

things because you know, if you've

335

: 00:15:42

got a dog that doesn't get that

right input as a puppy, sometimes

336

: 00:15:45

they're still absolutely fine.

337

: 00:15:47

Or you know, kind of from,

from our perspective, seem

338

: 00:15:49

to do really well as puppies.

339

: 00:15:50

But then those issues actually

start to present later when the dogs

340

: 00:15:54

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

341

: 00:15:54

Daniel: to mature a little bit.

342

: 00:15:56

And we realize, and those kind of

effects on the dog's physiology really

343

: 00:16:02

start to take effect and present

in terms of the dog's Behaviour.

344

: 00:16:05

And we see that dog starting

to really struggle to cope.

345

: 00:16:08

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

346

: 00:16:09

Brilliant.

347

: 00:16:10

Thank you.

348

: 00:16:10

Is there an average timeline for

puberty or adolescents, or does it vary

349

: 00:16:15

massively between different breeds?

350

: 00:16:18

Daniel: Oh, so yeah, I'm glad you

mentioned that in terms of puberty

351

: 00:16:20

and adolescence, because those

are a couple of separate things.

352

: 00:16:24

So,

353

: 00:16:25

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: okay.

354

: 00:16:25

Daniel: timeline wise, we can

actually think about the timeline

355

: 00:16:31

for puberty as being something that

tends to come before adolescence.

356

: 00:16:35

So the kinda,

357

: 00:16:36

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

358

: 00:16:36

Daniel: way to think of the difference

between puberty and adolescence is puberty

359

: 00:16:39

being kind of what's happening, changes

in kind of the body from the head down,

360

: 00:16:44

um, or not even just the head down, but

actually more kind of in some of those

361

: 00:16:46

hormonal, maturing, uh, maturation.

362

: 00:16:49

So things like testosterone, starting

to flow more in male dogs, estrogen and

363

: 00:16:53

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

364

: 00:16:53

Daniel: starting to flow

more in female dogs.

365

: 00:16:55

So the dog becoming sexually mature.

366

: 00:16:58

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

367

: 00:16:58

Daniel: we might start seeing

a female dog going into season.

368

: 00:17:01

We start, might steal a male dog,

starting to take more of an interest

369

: 00:17:03

in humping and more of an interest in

the females that he may encounter out

370

: 00:17:08

on his walks and things like that.

371

: 00:17:10

So.

372

: 00:17:11

Those are the, those are the

sorts of changes that we would

373

: 00:17:14

typically get with puberty or the

dog reaching that puberty phase.

374

: 00:17:18

Then adolescence is more of those

changes in terms of the brain.

375

: 00:17:21

So those things that we

started to talk about.

376

: 00:17:23

Now, typically, puberty will

start to occur around six to

377

: 00:17:27

eight months in most dogs on

378

: 00:17:29

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

379

: 00:17:30

Daniel: I'm not sure the last time I

checked there wasn't a huge amount of

380

: 00:17:34

research on differences between breed.

381

: 00:17:37

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

382

: 00:17:38

Daniel: There may be more that has

come out, but I think, you know,

383

: 00:17:41

my understanding is there isn't

a huge amount of science on that.

384

: 00:17:44

A lot of

385

: 00:17:45

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

386

: 00:17:45

Daniel: do report, especially people

that you know, have one breed and a lot

387

: 00:17:49

of experience with a particular breed

that, you know, they, their breed may

388

: 00:17:52

be a little bit later or a little bit

earlier with both puberty or adolescence.

389

: 00:17:56

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

390

: 00:17:57

Daniel: But there's, there's not enough

science as far as I'm aware to say for

391

: 00:18:00

sure on that, that, you know, that's

not to say that there isn't differences,

392

: 00:18:04

it's just to say that we don't officially

kind of have that data to, to kind of

393

: 00:18:08

tell us a lot about those differences.

394

: 00:18:10

So, um, yeah, puberty kind of around

that six months mark and then adolescence

395

: 00:18:15

tends to be between, somewhere between

really around eight and 24 months is

396

: 00:18:20

the best estimate from a a, a paper

that came out a couple of years ago.

397

: 00:18:24

And when I say between, that

doesn't mean that the dog hits,

398

: 00:18:29

starts adolescent at eight months

and then finishes at 24 months.

399

: 00:18:33

It can be

400

: 00:18:34

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: No.

401

: 00:18:34

Daniel: a kind of a period between that.

402

: 00:18:36

So it could be that the dog goes into

the adolescence phase around eight months

403

: 00:18:40

and then sort of finishes adolescence

around, you know, 14, 16 months.

404

: 00:18:44

It could be that they start a lot later.

405

: 00:18:46

You know, that that starts.

406

: 00:18:48

really starts taking effect around 18

months and finishes off around 24 months.

407

: 00:18:52

So kind of

408

: 00:18:53

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

409

: 00:18:53

Daniel: adolescence period is, can vary.

410

: 00:18:56

And yeah, again, that may be

something that is related to breed.

411

: 00:19:00

A lot of people, for example, talk about

larger breeds having a bit of a delayed

412

: 00:19:04

Potentially.

413

: 00:19:04

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

he took, yeah, he took them.

414

: 00:19:05

I was gonna say the size of the breed.

415

: 00:19:07

I thought that impacted it a bit.

416

: 00:19:10

Daniel: Yeah.

417

: 00:19:10

So I mean, it certainly could well

do, I mean, I, I think it, it, my

418

: 00:19:14

personal kind of guess is that I think

it possibly does just from what I've

419

: 00:19:19

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

420

: 00:19:20

Daniel: say for sure because

we haven't got enough data.

421

: 00:19:22

So that, I think that's certainly an

interesting one to kind of keep an

422

: 00:19:25

eye on as, as, as things go forward.

423

: 00:19:28

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

definitely.

424

: 00:19:29

There was a question of

what to just tag in here.

425

: 00:19:31

Something I picked up on the other day.

426

: 00:19:33

So second fear cycle, eight

to nine months, roughly.

427

: 00:19:38

Is this the same as adolescents

or are they two separate things?

428

: 00:19:42

Daniel: So, yeah, that's a

really good question as well.

429

: 00:19:44

And I think the, as best as I

can tell the answer is we don't

430

: 00:19:48

know whether that's the same

431

: 00:19:50

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

432

: 00:19:50

Daniel: or two separate things.

433

: 00:19:52

I

434

: 00:19:52

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

435

: 00:19:54

Daniel: and I think it depends who

you talked to, because some people

436

: 00:19:56

that I've heard have talked about

it as quite a distinct thing from

437

: 00:20:00

second adolescent or from adolescent,

sorry, the second fear cycle.

438

: 00:20:03

My interpretation just based off what we

know about adolescents and the fact that

439

: 00:20:08

there's not really evidence of kind of a,

a second fear cycle in other animals was

440

: 00:20:13

not, you know, we've got a lot of data

on adolescents as mammals as a whole,

441

: 00:20:19

got so much data on fear cycles and like

a fear, a later fear cycle, particularly

442

: 00:20:24

occurring in mammals as a whole.

443

: 00:20:25

So my, my theory is, yeah, it probably is

some, something related to adolescences

444

: 00:20:31

and, and it is probably kind of some

of those changes and, and I think.

445

: 00:20:35

It is probably related to some of those

changes that we get during adolescence

446

: 00:20:38

and as, what I'm trying to say, I

suppose is the changes that we get

447

: 00:20:42

through adolescence aren't a load of

things that switch on at the beginning

448

: 00:20:45

of adolescence and a load of things that

switch off at the end of adolescence.

449

: 00:20:49

They're things like, for example,

that change in extinction learning,

450

: 00:20:52

that change in reward processing,

that change in associative learning.

451

: 00:20:57

And, and all these changes

coming along at once.

452

: 00:21:00

Sort of coming along at

different times, sorry.

453

: 00:21:01

And interacting at different times.

454

: 00:21:04

So if you can think during that adolescent

period, say we're getting that change

455

: 00:21:07

in extinction learning going up, and

then we've got another change of,

456

: 00:21:09

you know, a few weeks later going up.

457

: 00:21:11

And if you can think, that actually

means we're getting a load of kind

458

: 00:21:14

of different interaction points

throughout that adolescent period.

459

: 00:21:19

then

460

: 00:21:20

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

461

: 00:21:20

Daniel: to really kind of give

us a, a way of seeing it a

462

: 00:21:23

little bit differently of, of.

463

: 00:21:25

Actually through adolescences,

like the animals dealing with these

464

: 00:21:27

cocktail of changes on almost like a

465

: 00:21:31

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

466

: 00:21:31

Daniel: week basis, that means actually

from one week to another, the way the

467

: 00:21:36

dog is perceiving the world and learning

about the world and responding to

468

: 00:21:40

the world could be very different as

that adolescence sort of progresses.

469

: 00:21:45

So I

470

: 00:21:46

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

471

: 00:21:47

Daniel: quite possibly that second fear

period is something to do with that.

472

: 00:21:50

And, and, and even if we think about

risk taking during adolescence, you

473

: 00:21:53

know, that might be something that

ties into what people describe as a

474

: 00:21:56

second period fear period as well.

475

: 00:21:57

Because we know adolescents take more

risks, which means they're more likely

476

: 00:22:01

to put themselves in circumstances

where they then feel scared because

477

: 00:22:05

they've run up to someone that they

thought was a good idea to run up to.

478

: 00:22:08

And then they've got there and they

realize there's a really scary looking

479

: 00:22:12

person that they've now decided to,

you know, there's too many people,

480

: 00:22:15

too many dogs, too many things going

on, and they're like, ah, crap.

481

: 00:22:18

Whereas

482

: 00:22:18

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

483

: 00:22:19

Daniel: you know, had they been in

that scenario, may have been fearful.

484

: 00:22:23

probably wouldn't have got into

that scenario in the first place.

485

: 00:22:25

So all sorts of

486

: 00:22:27

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

487

: 00:22:27

Daniel: could be going on there.

488

: 00:22:28

I think, you know, the, the, there's

so many changes that are going on.

489

: 00:22:32

I, I would tend to think kind

of just saying a second fear

490

: 00:22:35

period in a way is almost a

491

: 00:22:37

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

492

: 00:22:38

Daniel: of all the kind of

cocktail of changes that we get

493

: 00:22:41

during that adolescence period.

494

: 00:22:43

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

495

: 00:22:44

Brilliant.

496

: 00:22:45

Thank you so much.

497

: 00:22:46

So we are gonna be moving on to our

next section, which is all about the

498

: 00:22:49

common challenges that pet guardians

can worry that what they worry about.

499

: 00:22:55

Um, so challenges and worries.

500

: 00:22:58

What are some of the most

common Behaviours that tend

501

: 00:23:01

to pop up during adolescence?

502

: 00:23:03

Daniel?

503

: 00:23:05

Daniel: So I think one thing that I

certainly see a lot, and again this is

504

: 00:23:10

just based on my experience working as a

505

: 00:23:14

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's, that's cool.

506

: 00:23:15

Yeah.

507

: 00:23:16

Daniel: kind of any, any, anything

that we know from the data.

508

: 00:23:19

But,

509

: 00:23:20

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

510

: 00:23:21

Daniel: um, I see a lot of dogs that

seem to struggle with frustration

511

: 00:23:24

during adolescence and you know, that

can be things like frustration out

512

: 00:23:29

on walks or suddenly becoming, you

know, barking at other dogs because

513

: 00:23:32

we're seeing these kind of explosive

Behaviours, I think is sometimes the best

514

: 00:23:35

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm,

515

: 00:23:36

Daniel: them.

516

: 00:23:36

You know, you're taking the dog out

and then suddenly they've seen someone

517

: 00:23:39

and then we're just getting but blah

bark and then we sometimes we get some

518

: 00:23:42

redirected Behaviour towards the leash

and then we get running about and

519

: 00:23:44

we just get like this kind of, sort

of explosion of sort of Behaviour.

520

: 00:23:48

And I think often that can

be that frustration response.

521

: 00:23:51

And just to kind of define that a little

bit, what I mean by frustration, I.

522

: 00:23:56

Is the experience.

523

: 00:23:58

When an animal wants to do something,

they want to access something

524

: 00:24:02

in their environment, but they

are interrupted from doing so.

525

: 00:24:05

So for example, in that example,

seeing another dog that they want to

526

: 00:24:09

interact with, but not being able to

because they're on leash and therefore

527

: 00:24:13

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

528

: 00:24:14

Daniel: And I think

529

: 00:24:15

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

530

: 00:24:16

Daniel: many scenarios like that where

adolescents really struggle and whether

531

: 00:24:19

it's, you know, people coming into the

home and, and, and sometimes it's even

532

: 00:24:22

things like, you know, people coming

into the home and they're a little bit

533

: 00:24:25

fearful, they're a little bit nervous in

that situation, but they also wanna meet

534

: 00:24:29

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

535

: 00:24:29

Daniel: So we get that conflicts

there that can sometimes

536

: 00:24:32

bring in that frustration.

537

: 00:24:33

I see that a lot in adolescent dogs

of kind of being like, there's a new

538

: 00:24:36

person that's really, really exciting.

539

: 00:24:37

But I'm a little bit too scared to

go and say hi to them, so I'm not

540

: 00:24:39

sure what to do, so I'm just gonna

maybe just start barking at them.

541

: 00:24:43

So I think we see, we see

that sort of thing a lot.

542

: 00:24:46

And I think helping

543

: 00:24:48

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

544

: 00:24:48

Daniel: dog, adolescent dogs ways to

manage some of that frustration, find

545

: 00:24:53

ways to regulate some of that frustration

can be really, really valuable.

546

: 00:24:57

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

547

: 00:24:58

They can often get timed

like frustrated greeters.

548

: 00:25:01

So they can seem really like aggressive,

but they're more so, like you say,

549

: 00:25:05

they frustrated 'cause they just

wanna get to that dog and say hello.

550

: 00:25:08

Daniel: Yeah, no, I think that's great.

551

: 00:25:09

Tam.

552

: 00:25:09

Yeah, kind of like it is, it can

look, it can look, uh, you know, quite

553

: 00:25:13

particularly on some of the larger breeds

with kind of the deeper barks or the,

554

: 00:25:16

I tend to find I'm more easily, got an

issue that I'm very easily started by.

555

: 00:25:21

Kind of like the little

breeds with the light.

556

: 00:25:23

The high-pitched yappy noise always make

me jump when they bark unexpectedly still.

557

: 00:25:27

But, um, the larger breeds, I think,

you know, for some people particularly

558

: 00:25:31

kind of can look quite threatening

when they start reacting like that.

559

: 00:25:34

And actually when, when you dive into

it, actually it's, it's not that the,

560

: 00:25:39

the dog is, you know, behaving, you

know, showing what might be described

561

: 00:25:43

as aggressive Behaviour, which is a

very broad label and a very sort of.

562

: 00:25:47

Difficult label to define

in itself, but it's just

563

: 00:25:50

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

564

: 00:25:52

Daniel: Behaviour 'cause they kind of

want to greet them, but they're also not

565

: 00:25:54

quite sure how to do it and what to do.

566

: 00:25:58

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

567

: 00:25:58

Brilliant.

568

: 00:25:59

My next question's got

the word reactive in it.

569

: 00:26:01

And I'm not a massive fan of the

word reactive, like aggressive 'cause

570

: 00:26:04

there's so many sort of connotations

or reasons that it could be that way.

571

: 00:26:07

But for a dog that who previously

maybe loved other dogs, but then

572

: 00:26:12

suddenly became reactive and inverted

comm or, or wary, why might that be?

573

: 00:26:18

Daniel: Yeah.

574

: 00:26:18

So I think, again, during adolescence,

I mean, so during any age that that's

575

: 00:26:24

something that can happen, right?

576

: 00:26:25

That's something that, that

can be a bad experience.

577

: 00:26:27

It could be that the dog starting

to experience some pain, and

578

: 00:26:30

that's made them more concerned

579

: 00:26:31

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

580

: 00:26:32

Daniel: with other dogs because

suddenly they're feeling a

581

: 00:26:34

little bit more vulnerable.

582

: 00:26:35

So therefore they're, they're,

they're trying to prevent other dogs

583

: 00:26:38

from, from interacting with them.

584

: 00:26:40

So there's all sorts of reasons

that a dog at any age could start

585

: 00:26:43

being more reactive to other dogs.

586

: 00:26:45

Suddenly, if we think about it

in adolescence in particular.

587

: 00:26:50

I think a couple of, you know, a

couple of things that we can be

588

: 00:26:53

aware of is dogs start to change

a little bit during adolescence.

589

: 00:26:57

And one thing we can sometimes see

in adolescent animals is kind of more

590

: 00:27:02

of a, sort of a, a what's sometimes

called a hostile attribution bias.

591

: 00:27:07

So a bias towards thinking the Behaviour

of others is hostile towards them.

592

: 00:27:14

and that can of course mean, you know, if

you're going round thinking everyone is,

593

: 00:27:18

is coming after you and, and, and looking

for a fight with you, then you are, you

594

: 00:27:21

are gonna be more defensive naturally.

595

: 00:27:23

And we know

596

: 00:27:24

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

597

: 00:27:24

Daniel: are more defensive, if a dog

is behaving more standoffish, then

598

: 00:27:27

that can make the other dog then

start thinking, why is he looking

599

: 00:27:30

a bit, he's looking a bit funny, so

I'm not gonna, you know, or maybe I,

600

: 00:27:33

I'm, I should start barking at him.

601

: 00:27:34

So I think, you know, sometimes.

602

: 00:27:37

That might be something that could play

into that adolescents picture that just

603

: 00:27:41

makes dogs a little bit more standoffish,

which then maybe makes another, you

604

: 00:27:44

know, the opposing dog that they might

see out and about, more standoffish.

605

: 00:27:48

And that

606

: 00:27:49

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

607

: 00:27:49

Daniel: to this kind of cycle of kind

of miscommunication when actually both

608

: 00:27:53

dogs might be quite happy to play with

each other in better circumstances.

609

: 00:27:56

So, I mean, I think that's kind

of one thing to watch out for.

610

: 00:27:59

Um, I, I think sometimes

611

: 00:28:00

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

612

: 00:28:01

Daniel: Can increase as

well during adolescence.

613

: 00:28:03

So, because again, we've not got

that frontal circuitry in place.

614

: 00:28:07

So when we are, you know, when we are

as adults being irritated, whether

615

: 00:28:10

you're a dog or a human your frontal

circuitry kind of is, is, is built in

616

: 00:28:14

place to help you kind of not react to

that if that's the right thing to do.

617

: 00:28:18

Whereas an adolescent might struggle

more with those irritations and might

618

: 00:28:21

struggle to deal with them better.

619

: 00:28:23

So it's something like a puppy or

a dog that's a bit pushy with them,

620

: 00:28:26

whereas maybe a normal dog would be,

have a bit more patience, be able to

621

: 00:28:30

kind of give some softer social signals

like maybe moving away from them,

622

: 00:28:35

trying to ignore them a little bit.

623

: 00:28:36

That might signal to the other dog.

624

: 00:28:38

You are being a bit much, an

adolescent might just suddenly

625

: 00:28:41

turn around and be like, I'm gonna

bite you or I'm gonna gonna start

626

: 00:28:44

barking at you, or, or whatever.

627

: 00:28:46

Um, because

628

: 00:28:47

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

629

: 00:28:48

Daniel: is not as high in ad

in an adolescent generally.

630

: 00:28:52

As it would

631

: 00:28:53

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

632

: 00:28:53

Daniel: adult dog.

633

: 00:28:55

I, I,

634

: 00:28:55

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

635

: 00:28:55

Daniel: that's another thing that I

think's worth watching out for, and I

636

: 00:28:58

think particularly again, if you are,

if you are setting up social scenarios

637

: 00:29:02

with your adolescent dog, then that's

really important to be aware of because

638

: 00:29:07

we need to know that actually if your

adolescent dog, you know, if, if we start

639

: 00:29:10

seeing that play, particularly from the

other dog, maybe getting a little bit

640

: 00:29:14

much or getting a little bit pushy, then

we need to be aware that actually, and

641

: 00:29:17

that our adolescent dog might struggle

with that more than they would've done

642

: 00:29:21

even a couple of weeks ago when they

were, you know, in that puppy stage.

643

: 00:29:26

So being really,

644

: 00:29:27

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

645

: 00:29:28

Daniel: and really cautious of that is

important because then of course if we do

646

: 00:29:31

have a bad interaction, the dog does then

turn around and snap at that other dog,

647

: 00:29:35

and then that leads to something worse.

648

: 00:29:37

Then we've of course got the

rest of that adolescent circuitry

649

: 00:29:40

that we've spoken about in place.

650

: 00:29:42

Ready for the dog to learn very, very

quickly that other dogs or this dog

651

: 00:29:46

or interacting with dogs in this set

of circumstances down this park or

652

: 00:29:50

whatever it might be, is not good.

653

: 00:29:52

And you know, we've got fear

and that could take place.

654

: 00:29:55

So really, really being mindful

of, you know, always with dogs.

655

: 00:30:01

I would, I would say kind of setting

up for success with interactions, but

656

: 00:30:03

especially during that adolescence

period, remembering that there could be

657

: 00:30:06

changes in their kind of social tolerance.

658

: 00:30:10

And things can go wrong more

easily than they might go

659

: 00:30:14

wrong at other stages of life.

660

: 00:30:16

So I think, yeah, being extra mindful

of just kind of making sure we're,

661

: 00:30:21

we're kind of managing our dog and

preventing those sorts of things from

662

: 00:30:24

occurring will again pay off longer time.

663

: 00:30:28

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

664

: 00:30:29

Thank you.

665

: 00:30:29

So our final question for this

section is how can guardians tell

666

: 00:30:33

the difference between developmental

Behaviour and something more serious?

667

: 00:30:40

Daniel: So that's a really

interesting question.

668

: 00:30:42

So I suppose I, I, in terms of kind of

developmental Behaviour, is there any

669

: 00:30:48

anything you're kind of thinking of there?

670

: 00:30:50

Is there any particular examples

of developmental Behaviour

671

: 00:30:53

that that come to mind?

672

: 00:30:55

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Uh, oh gosh.

673

: 00:30:57

I dunno really.

674

: 00:30:58

I guess just learning new, new things like

maybe sort of getting used to being home

675

: 00:31:06

alone, sort of if, you know, obviously

a lot of dogs struggle with that.

676

: 00:31:10

Yes.

677

: 00:31:11

Along, along, along those being a bit

more resilient and sort of like, you

678

: 00:31:13

know, learning to be at home on their

own and, you know, things like that.

679

: 00:31:17

Maybe.

680

: 00:31:18

Daniel: Yeah.

681

: 00:31:19

Yeah.

682

: 00:31:19

So I, I suppose, yeah, like things

like not struggling a little bit

683

: 00:31:24

more with, being home alone or, or,

or kind of maybe wanting to kind of

684

: 00:31:29

jump up a, a little bit more or kind

of some of those things that we spoke

685

: 00:31:32

about that might link to some of those

frustration things might tie in more to

686

: 00:31:36

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

687

: 00:31:37

Yeah,

688

: 00:31:37

Daniel: think it's,

689

: 00:31:38

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

690

: 00:31:38

Daniel: very difficult.

691

: 00:31:39

I suppose one of the reasons it's kind of

hard to, to kind of think about this, I

692

: 00:31:44

suppose what I'm, what what's difficult

is, is actually disentangling that, and I

693

: 00:31:48

think that's probably an important thing

in itself is, is, you know, if we've got

694

: 00:31:52

a dog that's starting to, to show, you

know, fearful Behaviour at adolescence,

695

: 00:31:57

that is a Behaviour that could occur

at any point in that dog's life.

696

: 00:32:01

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

697

: 00:32:02

Yeah.

698

: 00:32:03

Daniel: necessarily something we

would call developmental Behaviour,

699

: 00:32:06

but of course if it's happening

during adolescence, it's still.

700

: 00:32:12

In gonna be incredibly important to

understand that adolescence period in

701

: 00:32:17

the dog, because that's gonna change

how we might approach that Behaviour.

702

: 00:32:22

So for example, when I'm working with

adolescent dogs that are struggling with

703

: 00:32:25

fearfulness, we tend to have a pretty low

we, we scale back, I suppose is a good

704

: 00:32:32

way of describing kind of the Behaviour

plans that we might put in place.

705

: 00:32:35

We don't do a lot of, for example

you know, what's known as sort of

706

: 00:32:38

desensitization or counterconditioning

training with adolescent dogs.

707

: 00:32:42

And essentially the training

that we might do with an older

708

: 00:32:44

dog because, 'cause there's a

greater chance of it going wrong.

709

: 00:32:49

Their, their

710

: 00:32:50

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

711

: 00:32:50

Daniel: means that it's harder for them

to, to, for that kind of information

712

: 00:32:54

to be taken on board by that dog.

713

: 00:32:56

So what we tend to

714

: 00:32:57

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

715

: 00:32:57

Daniel: on is actually during

that period, maintaining a.

716

: 00:33:00

Where the

717

: 00:33:01

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

718

: 00:33:01

Daniel: making sure we're not going

backwards, making sure the dog doesn't

719

: 00:33:04

kind of regress in terms of their

fearfulness, um, around something.

720

: 00:33:08

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

721

: 00:33:09

Daniel: Making sure that, you know,

their kind of emotional wellbeing

722

: 00:33:11

is good and making sure that they're

having a, you know, a good, happy

723

: 00:33:14

existence as an adolescent, but actually

724

: 00:33:17

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

725

: 00:33:17

Daniel: too much without

Behaviour modification.

726

: 00:33:20

Because if we start doing too much work

during that adolescence period, it might

727

: 00:33:25

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

728

: 00:33:26

Daniel: you know, we are taking a greater

risk in terms of things going wrong.

729

: 00:33:29

We are not gonna get as much value

for our, for effort or money.

730

: 00:33:32

Um, in terms of the, the

investment we're putting in.

731

: 00:33:36

Because the

732

: 00:33:36

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

733

: 00:33:37

Daniel: well designed for that kind of

learning during adolescence and it, it's,

734

: 00:33:42

I generally think it's better off actually

waiting for the dog to mature a little

735

: 00:33:45

bit, just focusing on their emotional

wellbeing, making sure they enjoy that

736

: 00:33:48

adolescence during that adolescent period.

737

: 00:33:52

And then

738

: 00:33:52

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

739

: 00:33:52

Daniel: kind, kind of focusing more

on the training side of tackling

740

: 00:33:56

that when the dog reaches maturity.

741

: 00:33:58

Um, rather than doing

742

: 00:33:59

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

743

: 00:34:00

Daniel: on that during adolescence.

744

: 00:34:03

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

745

: 00:34:03

I'm trying to pinpoint like, 'cause

my dogs, one of my dogs suffers with

746

: 00:34:07

separation anxiety and I'm trying

to pinpoint whether that was roughly

747

: 00:34:11

around like the adolescence period or

not, because it was in COVID as well.

748

: 00:34:16

My husband was furloughed and he sort

of blames that a little bit as well.

749

: 00:34:19

The fact that he was home all the time.

750

: 00:34:22

And I was trying to work out whether

he was sort of like around adolescent's

751

: 00:34:25

age, but his also is, um, linked to

pain 'cause he's got chronic back pain.

752

: 00:34:30

So he's like, he's got essay, but

then he sort of resource guards and

753

: 00:34:35

his reactive, so, so much going on.

754

: 00:34:38

Bless him.

755

: 00:34:39

Um, I was just trying to work out if

that was around about an adolescent age.

756

: 00:34:42

It sort of came on.

757

: 00:34:44

So developmental Behaviour, what,

like, I know I put this question in,

758

: 00:34:47

but what would you, what would you say

developmental Behaviour actually is then?

759

: 00:34:52

Daniel: So I mean, I, I are you thinking

of, I suppose what you thinking when

760

: 00:34:56

you, when we talk about developmental

Behaviour, there's Behaviour during

761

: 00:34:59

development that might be important

for the dog's kind of development

762

: 00:35:04

longer term in terms of their kind

of social and emotional development.

763

: 00:35:08

We know, for example, play

764

: 00:35:10

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

765

: 00:35:10

Daniel: really important

for social and emotional

766

: 00:35:12

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

767

: 00:35:12

Daniel: longer term.

768

: 00:35:14

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

769

: 00:35:14

Daniel: and being able to explore

new environments and develop

770

: 00:35:18

that proprioceptive system.

771

: 00:35:19

So the system that helps us kind of

navigate the environment that we're on.

772

: 00:35:24

Literally navigate the environment, not

in terms of thinking how do I get to the

773

: 00:35:27

local shops, but in terms of thinking,

how do I get on onto the sofa and off

774

: 00:35:31

the sofa, you know, that kind of thing.

775

: 00:35:33

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

776

: 00:35:34

Daniel: So, I mean, that's a

really important one in terms of

777

: 00:35:36

thinking about about development.

778

: 00:35:38

I mean, you know, if we get, if we go

kind of even earlier, you know, things

779

: 00:35:41

like starting to open your eyes, starting

to, to, to, uh, cry for your parent,

780

: 00:35:46

that kind of thing, I suppose would be

781

: 00:35:48

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

782

: 00:35:49

Daniel: in developmental Behaviour.

783

: 00:35:50

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

784

: 00:35:51

Daniel: puppy

785

: 00:35:51

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

786

: 00:35:52

Daniel: again, another big developmental

Behaviour, helping us learn about

787

: 00:35:55

that social environment as well.

788

: 00:35:56

Helping us learn about

789

: 00:35:57

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

790

: 00:35:58

Daniel: the, the kind of physical

environment that the puppy's in.

791

: 00:36:01

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

792

: 00:36:01

Daniel: I, I

793

: 00:36:02

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I guess,

794

: 00:36:02

Daniel: typically think

of that sort of thing.

795

: 00:36:05

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I guess like, yeah, 'cause you've

796

: 00:36:06

got those different stages in

Puppyhood as well, haven't you?

797

: 00:36:09

That initial fear, so obviously a

habitation as well, and socialization

798

: 00:36:14

is so much different sort of

processes they're going through

799

: 00:36:18

at such a young age as well.

800

: 00:36:20

Daniel: Yeah, I mean there's, there's so,

801

: 00:36:21

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's mad.

802

: 00:36:22

Daniel: isn't there?

803

: 00:36:23

And I mean, that's the,

804

: 00:36:23

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

805

: 00:36:24

Daniel: thing about kind of.

806

: 00:36:26

Our physiology as mammals is, is, is

incredible, I think in, in the sense that

807

: 00:36:30

we are not complete when we are born.

808

: 00:36:32

You know, are just kind of given a set

of instructions of this is how to finish

809

: 00:36:36

off developing and, you know, go for it.

810

: 00:36:39

And, and, and, uh, I think a lot to do is,

a lot of of it is to do with our obviously

811

: 00:36:44

our size and, and kind of because of,

obviously if we were adults and, and being

812

: 00:36:50

carried by our parents, then that that's

not really gonna work on a, on a kind

813

: 00:36:54

of practical perspective, um, as well.

814

: 00:36:56

But I'm thinking, yeah, there's

some interesting, interesting kind

815

: 00:36:59

of, sort of looking at, if we look

at it across species and the, and

816

: 00:37:04

the way they you know, different,

different species approach kind

817

: 00:37:08

of development is, is incredible.

818

: 00:37:10

I mean, if you compare it to like.

819

: 00:37:12

Even, you know, horses and giraffes

that will just kind of be born and just

820

: 00:37:17

be wandering about on their own, is so

821

: 00:37:20

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

822

: 00:37:20

Daniel: as like humans and dogs

that are just pretty useless

823

: 00:37:24

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

824

: 00:37:24

Daniel: born, unfortunately.

825

: 00:37:26

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, the word resilience is kind

826

: 00:37:29

of ba batting around for me as well.

827

: 00:37:31

And that built, that's on our, that's

my next section about resilience.

828

: 00:37:34

Actually.

829

: 00:37:34

I was just, that was a word that was

sort of coming through, so brilliant.

830

: 00:37:37

Leading us nicely onto what helps, so

building resilience and connection.

831

: 00:37:43

So what should we, what should we

prioritize during the adolescent phase and

832

: 00:37:48

what actually helps our dogs cope, Daniel?

833

: 00:37:51

Daniel: So I think one thing that we

can do during the adolescent phase and

834

: 00:37:55

ideally really before the adolescent

phase from when we first get our

835

: 00:37:59

dogs, is think about that connection.

836

: 00:38:01

I think that's a

837

: 00:38:02

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm,

838

: 00:38:02

Daniel: kind of link there, resilience

and connection, because I think

839

: 00:38:06

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

definitely.

840

: 00:38:06

Daniel: that relationship.

841

: 00:38:08

Between the caregiver and the dog is so

important for resilience and emotional

842

: 00:38:12

wellbeing Longer term we know that

dogs are incredible in the sense that

843

: 00:38:19

they, the way they form relationships

with their human caregivers is mimics

844

: 00:38:26

on both ends of our physiology.

845

: 00:38:28

On our physiology.

846

: 00:38:29

And in terms of the dog's

physiology mimics the

847

: 00:38:32

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

848

: 00:38:33

Daniel: relationships that we see

between human infants and their

849

: 00:38:37

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

850

: 00:38:38

Daniel: you know, what you'd see

whether between a child and their

851

: 00:38:40

mom, their dad, or caregiver.

852

: 00:38:42

And that attachment relationship

has a few special features.

853

: 00:38:48

So it has what's known as

the secure base effect.

854

: 00:38:51

So if the infant is around their

caregiver, they are, their caregiver

855

: 00:38:56

acts as a secure base and gives them more

confidence to explore that environment.

856

: 00:39:02

Distress upon separation as well.

857

: 00:39:04

So if the caregiver is, if the infant

is separated from the caregiver,

858

: 00:39:08

often there'll be signs of distress.

859

: 00:39:10

And I think that's a, an an important

one also, when we're talking about things

860

: 00:39:13

like separation anxiety, because actually

some distress and discomfort on upon

861

: 00:39:20

separation is a normal and healthy thing.

862

: 00:39:23

we need to do as, as, as well, both

obviously behaviourists or caregivers,

863

: 00:39:27

is actually make sure we help our dog

realize that and understand that this

864

: 00:39:32

is not the end of the world kind of

865

: 00:39:34

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

866

: 00:39:35

Daniel: thing that you

can, that, you know, it's,

867

: 00:39:37

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

868

: 00:39:37

Daniel: not, it's not your favorite

thing in the world, but it is something

869

: 00:39:39

you can adapt to and cope with.

870

: 00:39:41

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

871

: 00:39:41

Daniel: we've got these kind of

features of an attachment relationship,

872

: 00:39:44

these amazing features that, that

that that connection is so valuable.

873

: 00:39:48

And, and actually we also know the,

that dogs and humans that have stronger

874

: 00:39:55

attachment relationships actually.

875

: 00:39:58

Tend to show more responsivity.

876

: 00:40:02

The dose dogs tend to show more

responsivity to their caregivers

877

: 00:40:06

during that adolescent phase.

878

: 00:40:08

So if you've got that kind of strong

attachment relationship with your dog,

879

: 00:40:11

actually one benefit of that is your

dog probably will still show a little

880

: 00:40:14

bit of a dip in responsiveness when

it hit, when they hit adolescence.

881

: 00:40:17

But that dipping responsiveness might be

mitigated a little bit by that stronger

882

: 00:40:21

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

883

: 00:40:22

Daniel: relationship.

884

: 00:40:22

So I think attachment buildings

a really, really key thing there,

885

: 00:40:26

and I think there's a lot that

we can think about it comes to

886

: 00:40:29

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

887

: 00:40:29

Daniel: building.

888

: 00:40:30

I think one absolute key fundamental

when we're thinking about attachment

889

: 00:40:34

building is being sensitive.

890

: 00:40:37

To the dog's needs and being

891

: 00:40:39

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

892

: 00:40:40

Daniel: to any signs of distress, being

sensitive to signs of enjoyment and

893

: 00:40:43

happiness and joy as well actually being

when your dog is enjoying themselves,

894

: 00:40:46

trying to share that experience with

them and saying, oh, that's great.

895

: 00:40:49

You know, and just, you know,

like the good times as well, but

896

: 00:40:53

also when, when something bad

happens, not trying to ignore it.

897

: 00:40:57

And there's so much kind of bad

advice that are out there about kind

898

: 00:41:00

of ignoring your dog when they're,

when they're fearful or ignoring

899

: 00:41:03

your dog when they're stressed.

900

: 00:41:04

And actually that's really

counterintuitive because, you know, if we

901

: 00:41:09

are scared as humans, if someone comforts

us, you know, if, if your friend, your

902

: 00:41:14

parent when you're young, you know,

comforts you and, and says, oh, it's okay.

903

: 00:41:18

When you are scared of something

that doesn't reinforce you, that

904

: 00:41:22

doesn't make you think, oh, I'm

gonna be scared tomorrow night.

905

: 00:41:24

'cause that was great, I got

a load of attention from that.

906

: 00:41:26

This is not how it works when, when

we're talking about an emotion.

907

: 00:41:31

And it's absolutely the same with dogs.

908

: 00:41:33

If our dogs are scared of something and,

and, and, you know, feeling fearful,

909

: 00:41:37

actually responding to that and offering

some reassurance is a really good thing.

910

: 00:41:41

And then helping them move on from

it as well, helping them then kind

911

: 00:41:44

of turn around and like maybe look to

that next activity, do something else.

912

: 00:41:48

And there's some, you know, really

good work out there people looking

913

: 00:41:52

at attachment and kind of looking at

how we can really kind of facilitate

914

: 00:41:55

that strong human dog relationship

between dogs and their caregivers.

915

: 00:42:00

So I think yeah, definitely, definitely

thinking about that sensitivity

916

: 00:42:04

that, that caregiver sensitivity is

a really, really good place to start.

917

: 00:42:07

I think also being a

918

: 00:42:08

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

919

: 00:42:08

Daniel: good things for the dog

is another, really another really

920

: 00:42:11

important element of building

that attachment relationship.

921

: 00:42:14

So, you know, intro, setting up fun stuff

for your dog, showing them Sarah Fisher

922

: 00:42:18

does amazing work with um, ACE Free work.

923

: 00:42:22

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

she does.

924

: 00:42:23

Daniel: a good opportunity for building

that attachment relationship because

925

: 00:42:27

you can go around and you can go

around these different stations and

926

: 00:42:29

you can engage with 'em and your dog

and you say, oh, what are you doing?

927

: 00:42:32

Oh, is that a fun one?

928

: 00:42:33

Yeah, that's great.

929

: 00:42:34

What did you think of this one?

930

: 00:42:35

Didn't like this one so much.

931

: 00:42:36

We won't set up this one next time.

932

: 00:42:38

I'm not gonna try and explain

it in a huge amount of detail

933

: 00:42:40

because I won't do an amazing job.

934

: 00:42:42

But I, I'd say definitely anyone that's

kind of looking for something to, to work

935

: 00:42:47

on that attachment relationship with their

dog, ACE Free Work is another amazing,

936

: 00:42:51

uh, a tool for your toolbox in that regard

937

: 00:42:54

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes,

it often gets mentioned on this podcast

938

: 00:42:59

ACE Free Work and Sarah, and we've got,

we've actually got her coming on soon.

939

: 00:43:02

She's a very busy lady.

940

: 00:43:04

So a little reveal for our listeners.

941

: 00:43:06

She is coming on soon.

942

: 00:43:07

Daniel: her up then.

943

: 00:43:09

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, yeah.

944

: 00:43:10

But like, she's so busy and I've

struggled to tie her down to a date.

945

: 00:43:13

Bless her.

946

: 00:43:14

'cause she's got obviously, so she's just

so busy and she's amazed at what she does.

947

: 00:43:18

But yeah, literally, I think on pretty

much every episode, Sarah and Ace free

948

: 00:43:22

work gets mentioned, so I love that.

949

: 00:43:25

I can't wait to have her on and

to speak to her more about it all.

950

: 00:43:28

Brilliant.

951

: 00:43:29

So, are there ways to support our

dogs through emotional surges and

952

: 00:43:34

off days in inverted commas, Daniel?

953

: 00:43:37

Daniel: Yeah, so I think, you know,

again, searches, I suppose that's kind

954

: 00:43:42

of links back to what we were talking

about in terms of that emotional,

955

: 00:43:45

that limbic system in the brain kind

of causing some of those emotional

956

: 00:43:50

responses to be a little bit more

exaggerated perhaps than we would

957

: 00:43:54

typically see when the dog was a puppy.

958

: 00:43:57

And I think,

959

: 00:43:57

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

960

: 00:43:58

Daniel: you know, things like emotions

and the physiological changes that

961

: 00:44:02

come with them, there is a little

bit of recovery time from that.

962

: 00:44:05

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

963

: 00:44:06

Daniel: amount of time necessarily, and

is what you do with the dog as well?

964

: 00:44:12

The kinda the quality of the, the

time spent after that, uh, sort

965

: 00:44:16

of maybe strongly felt emotion and

typically I'm thinking of maybe a

966

: 00:44:19

more of a negative emotion here.

967

: 00:44:20

But actually

968

: 00:44:21

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

969

: 00:44:22

Daniel: apply to positive emotions as well

because if a dog has been out playing with

970

: 00:44:25

their friends and having lots of fun and

being very excited in a very high arousal

971

: 00:44:29

situation, that can also take a bit of

recovery time from, I think we all kind of

972

: 00:44:33

know sometimes if we take our dog out and

they've been playing around for ages, they

973

: 00:44:36

can sometimes seem almost a bit too hyped.

974

: 00:44:38

Coming outta that situation, you're

975

: 00:44:39

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

976

: 00:44:40

Daniel: you've been playing for ages.

977

: 00:44:41

Why aren't you just sleeping?

978

: 00:44:43

And some dogs will just sleep.

979

: 00:44:45

And actually that's an issue in itself

if you've overti a dog and they've just

980

: 00:44:47

kind of gone to sleep, because that means

that then we've got a dog that, that,

981

: 00:44:51

you know, might have, we might have used

up a bit much of their kind of emotional

982

: 00:44:55

tolerance and we've tied them out so

much that they might really struggle to

983

: 00:44:59

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

984

: 00:44:59

Daniel: longer term as well.

985

: 00:45:00

But

986

: 00:45:01

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

987

: 00:45:02

Daniel: sorry I'm jumping

around a little bit, but

988

: 00:45:04

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

No, I don't apologize.

989

: 00:45:05

It's absolutely fine.

990

: 00:45:07

Daniel: I think

991

: 00:45:08

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

992

: 00:45:08

Daniel: emotional searches, there's

a few things in terms of kind

993

: 00:45:10

of a small or, or a high arousal

emotion, whether that be good or bad.

994

: 00:45:14

There's a few things in terms

of helping our dog recover.

995

: 00:45:17

I think the first thing is time.

996

: 00:45:18

Generally, you know, it's maybe a couple

of hours for some of those hormones

997

: 00:45:22

and, and, um, hormonal responses

to kind of rebalance and for the

998

: 00:45:28

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

999

: 00:45:28

Daniel: kind of achieve homeostasis again,

where they're all their physiology kind

: 1000

00:45:32,087 --> 00:45:34,187

of gets to that kind of nice balance.

: 1001

00:45:35,162 --> 00:45:38,552

So that's usually gonna be a couple

of hours for things like cortisol

: 1002

00:45:38,552 --> 00:45:40,982

levels to go down, cortisol being the

: 1003

00:45:41,046 --> 00:45:41,436

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

: 1004

00:45:41,672 --> 00:45:44,252

Daniel: involved in stress,

whether that be a good

: 1005

00:45:44,431 --> 00:45:44,651

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

: 1006

00:45:44,972 --> 00:45:45,962

Daniel: or a bad stressor.

: 1007

00:45:47,041 --> 00:45:47,331

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1008

00:45:47,492 --> 00:45:51,192

Daniel: and, and also an activity

that helps that dog come down.

: 1009

00:45:51,192 --> 00:45:53,772

And, and that can look

different for different dogs.

: 1010

00:45:54,042 --> 00:45:54,672

Some dogs

: 1011

00:45:54,941 --> 00:45:55,061

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

: 1012

00:45:55,122 --> 00:45:57,852

Daniel: to grab something and

choose something, and that seems

: 1013

00:45:57,852 --> 00:46:00,252

to actually really, really help

them kind of regulate themselves.

: 1014

00:46:00,252 --> 00:46:01,632

Again, some dogs like to

: 1015

00:46:01,731 --> 00:46:02,021

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1016

00:46:02,292 --> 00:46:04,302

Daniel: Some dogs like things

like your lick mats, like,

: 1017

00:46:04,512 --> 00:46:04,802

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

: 1018

00:46:05,063 --> 00:46:08,183

Daniel: different surfaces that they

can access, paste and stuff off.

: 1019

00:46:08,183 --> 00:46:09,863

Kongs, frozen stuff,

: 1020

00:46:10,002 --> 00:46:10,422

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

: 1021

00:46:10,433 --> 00:46:10,673

Daniel: thing.

: 1022

00:46:11,722 --> 00:46:12,142

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

: 1023

00:46:12,458 --> 00:46:15,668

Daniel: do like that dissecting side

of it, like a chew that they can take

: 1024

00:46:15,668 --> 00:46:18,518

apart and dissect and really crunch on.

: 1025

00:46:18,758 --> 00:46:24,218

So it depends on the dog and I think

that's where, you know, learning

: 1026

00:46:24,218 --> 00:46:27,308

about your individual dogs is

really Im dog is really important.

: 1027

00:46:27,308 --> 00:46:31,118

So you can start to gather that

information in terms of actually what

: 1028

00:46:31,118 --> 00:46:36,968

helps my dog, what helps this dog

from a more high arousal environment.

: 1029

00:46:36,968 --> 00:46:41,168

Whether that be something as like

playing with friends where we got

: 1030

00:46:41,168 --> 00:46:45,308

very excited or something like the dog

got spooked by something and we need

: 1031

00:46:45,308 --> 00:46:46,388

a little bit of a break from that.

: 1032

00:46:46,748 --> 00:46:47,618

Some dogs will go

: 1033

00:46:47,757 --> 00:46:48,047

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1034

00:46:48,098 --> 00:46:50,258

Daniel: will be able to have a

snooze after something like that.

: 1035

00:46:50,258 --> 00:46:53,108

Some dogs will struggle more to

snooze after something like that.

: 1036

00:46:53,378 --> 00:46:57,998

Having a sleep definitely does help

rebalance some of that physiology, but

: 1037

00:46:57,998 --> 00:47:01,688

actually getting into that sleep state

is something we might need to kind

: 1038

00:47:01,688 --> 00:47:03,068

of help our dogs with a little bit.

: 1039

00:47:03,983 --> 00:47:04,433

Definitely

: 1040

00:47:04,497 --> 00:47:04,787

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1041

00:47:05,063 --> 00:47:06,053

Daniel: available is good though.

: 1042

00:47:06,053 --> 00:47:09,923

I think making sure, you know, we

give the dog some options in terms

: 1043

00:47:09,923 --> 00:47:11,813

of, you know, what they want to do.

: 1044

00:47:11,813 --> 00:47:14,723

Maybe seeing if they want to chew, maybe

seeing if they want something to lick

: 1045

00:47:14,723 --> 00:47:19,133

on, maybe seeing if they want to kind

of onto something and have a little

: 1046

00:47:19,223 --> 00:47:22,703

gentle game of tug with something,

you know, not a full on game of tug.

: 1047

00:47:22,708 --> 00:47:27,293

Generally I wouldn't go for, in this

sort of situation, for the most part.

: 1048

00:47:28,103 --> 00:47:29,213

there may be exceptions.

: 1049

00:47:29,213 --> 00:47:30,683

I don't, I haven't worked with every dog.

: 1050

00:47:30,953 --> 00:47:31,223

But

: 1051

00:47:31,273 --> 00:47:31,563

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

: 1052

00:47:31,614 --> 00:47:34,194

Daniel: of a, sort of a low key

game of tug with a bit of biter,

: 1053

00:47:34,944 --> 00:47:37,284

of snappy kind of, you know, if

you do, you know what I mean?

: 1054

00:47:37,284 --> 00:47:38,634

Like the, I could do the little

: 1055

00:47:38,903 --> 00:47:39,193

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

: 1056

00:47:39,234 --> 00:47:39,894

Daniel: know, yeah.

: 1057

00:47:39,894 --> 00:47:41,304

We kind just low key tug.

: 1058

00:47:41,784 --> 00:47:42,054

It's, yeah.

: 1059

00:47:44,743 --> 00:47:45,033

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

: 1060

00:47:45,178 --> 00:47:45,688

I get you.

: 1061

00:47:45,808 --> 00:47:46,288

Brilliant.

: 1062

00:47:46,508 --> 00:47:52,448

So what role does connection and

co-regulation play in helping our

: 1063

00:47:52,448 --> 00:47:54,608

dogs feel safe and understood?

: 1064

00:47:54,668 --> 00:47:54,998

Daniel?

: 1065

00:47:56,764 --> 00:47:58,109

Daniel: So, yeah, I think.

: 1066

00:48:00,589 --> 00:48:02,569

Connection is, is super important.

: 1067

00:48:02,569 --> 00:48:07,189

I think that kind of links back to

the kind of what we were talking about

: 1068

00:48:07,189 --> 00:48:10,219

in a little bit, about in, in some

of that attachment side of things.

: 1069

00:48:10,219 --> 00:48:11,089

And obviously if we've

: 1070

00:48:11,343 --> 00:48:11,763

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

: 1071

00:48:11,869 --> 00:48:15,949

Daniel: relationship, then that's

gonna make it a lot easier for that dog

: 1072

00:48:15,949 --> 00:48:20,239

to feel safe because they know they,

they're, they're of brains are set

: 1073

00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,839

up to learn that if they've got this

predictable, sensitive caregiver, then

: 1074

00:48:23,839 --> 00:48:25,729

that is a signal for safety for them.

: 1075

00:48:26,099 --> 00:48:26,609

And then

: 1076

00:48:26,688 --> 00:48:27,198

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1077

00:48:27,209 --> 00:48:28,799

Daniel: the other one you

said was co-regulation.

: 1078

00:48:28,799 --> 00:48:29,759

I think that's actually.

: 1079

00:48:30,824 --> 00:48:34,154

A really important way that we can

sometimes see this go to the next

: 1080

00:48:34,154 --> 00:48:38,144

level because I think one aspect of

co-regulation is, is we, we see this

: 1081

00:48:38,144 --> 00:48:39,464

some kind of physiological level.

: 1082

00:48:39,464 --> 00:48:42,314

We know that if we're engaging with

our dogs, particularly kind of tactile

: 1083

00:48:42,314 --> 00:48:47,144

engagement, we start to see things like

oxytocin, this kind of hormone involved in

: 1084

00:48:47,144 --> 00:48:50,024

social bonding starting to to be released.

: 1085

00:48:50,084 --> 00:48:54,374

We also start to see, um, endogenous

opioids released in our brain.

: 1086

00:48:54,374 --> 00:48:57,344

So these are these kind of newer

chemicals that are involved in

: 1087

00:48:57,344 --> 00:49:00,314

helping us feel safe and happy.

: 1088

00:49:01,634 --> 00:49:01,964

so we

: 1089

00:49:02,023 --> 00:49:02,243

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

: 1090

00:49:02,414 --> 00:49:04,304

Daniel: to see all these things

happening and both the dog and

: 1091

00:49:04,304 --> 00:49:06,044

the human end typically as well.

: 1092

00:49:06,884 --> 00:49:07,484

And

: 1093

00:49:07,543 --> 00:49:07,763

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

: 1094

00:49:07,874 --> 00:49:10,424

Daniel: we also, another

interesting feature of attachment

: 1095

00:49:10,844 --> 00:49:12,434

is something called joint attention.

: 1096

00:49:13,694 --> 00:49:17,414

what that means is if, for example,

you, you've, you know, you've look

: 1097

00:49:17,414 --> 00:49:19,814

at a parent that's got an attachment

relationship with their infant.

: 1098

00:49:20,024 --> 00:49:23,474

If the infant looks at something, the

parent will tend to, to look towards that.

: 1099

00:49:23,894 --> 00:49:24,644

And equally, if the

: 1100

00:49:25,008 --> 00:49:27,558

At something, the infant will

tend to look towards that.

: 1101

00:49:27,618 --> 00:49:29,988

So their attentional

systems start to link up.

: 1102

00:49:30,228 --> 00:49:31,008

We start to see the

: 1103

00:49:31,207 --> 00:49:31,687

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: hmm.

: 1104

00:49:31,728 --> 00:49:34,578

Daniel: lot of interest in what the parent

is looking at, the parent sharing a lot of

: 1105

00:49:34,578 --> 00:49:36,168

interest in what the infant is looking at.

: 1106

00:49:37,098 --> 00:49:38,538

And actually that's a

really valuable feature.

: 1107

00:49:38,538 --> 00:49:41,688

And I think dogs, there

is some evidence for this.

: 1108

00:49:41,688 --> 00:49:46,098

I think one way in the sense that the,

the human will look at something and

: 1109

00:49:46,098 --> 00:49:48,018

then the dog will follow that attention.

: 1110

00:49:48,378 --> 00:49:53,118

And, this is really, really

interesting in the sense that.

: 1111

00:49:53,523 --> 00:49:57,453

Again, we can use this to start helping

the dog regulate themselves because we

: 1112

00:49:57,453 --> 00:50:02,103

can use our attentional system to start

encouraging the dog to follow us, follow

: 1113

00:50:02,103 --> 00:50:06,243

our attention, and engage in something

that is gonna help them regulate.

: 1114

00:50:06,453 --> 00:50:06,933

You know, it

: 1115

00:50:07,162 --> 00:50:07,542

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm mm.

: 1116

00:50:07,653 --> 00:50:10,503

Daniel: setting up a li map,

is that something we can do?

: 1117

00:50:10,503 --> 00:50:12,813

You know, can we take it to the

next level again by not just

: 1118

00:50:12,873 --> 00:50:13,983

setting it up in the kitchen.

: 1119

00:50:14,043 --> 00:50:14,523

There you go.

: 1120

00:50:14,613 --> 00:50:16,743

Li map off you go crack on with it.

: 1121

00:50:16,923 --> 00:50:19,263

But actually sitting there and

kind of adding a little bit to it.

: 1122

00:50:19,293 --> 00:50:19,923

Oh, have you done?

: 1123

00:50:19,923 --> 00:50:21,123

Should we add a bit more to it?

: 1124

00:50:21,183 --> 00:50:21,363

Yeah.

: 1125

00:50:21,393 --> 00:50:21,933

Oh great.

: 1126

00:50:22,203 --> 00:50:23,343

Should we do a bit more here?

: 1127

00:50:23,433 --> 00:50:23,733

Okay.

: 1128

00:50:23,733 --> 00:50:24,783

Do you wanna do something else now?

: 1129

00:50:24,783 --> 00:50:25,923

Should we look at this activity?

: 1130

00:50:25,923 --> 00:50:29,553

So actually kind of sharing and

being a part of those activities

: 1131

00:50:29,583 --> 00:50:31,263

with your dog can be really valuable.

: 1132

00:50:31,503 --> 00:50:34,563

I'll just have a caveat as I've

given that particular example.

: 1133

00:50:34,563 --> 00:50:37,083

If you've got a dog that guards

resources, don't do that.

: 1134

00:50:37,443 --> 00:50:40,643

But the most part, you know, something

where we can share that kind of

: 1135

00:50:40,643 --> 00:50:42,503

activity can be really, really valuable.

: 1136

00:50:44,172 --> 00:50:44,532

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Perfect.

: 1137

00:50:44,592 --> 00:50:44,922

Brilliant.

: 1138

00:50:45,192 --> 00:50:45,432

Right.

: 1139

00:50:45,432 --> 00:50:48,432

We're gonna be moving on to our final

section before we start wrapping up.

: 1140

00:50:48,432 --> 00:50:51,882

Literally, we've sailed for,

it's been, my mind is buzzing.

: 1141

00:50:52,782 --> 00:50:55,272

Um, full of so much useful info.

: 1142

00:50:55,272 --> 00:50:55,872

It's been brilliant.

: 1143

00:50:55,872 --> 00:51:00,762

So the human experience,

guilt, frustration, and fear.

: 1144

00:51:01,542 --> 00:51:07,392

What, why is this phase so tough

emotionally for guardians, Daniel?

: 1145

00:51:08,573 --> 00:51:09,083

Daniel: Yeah.

: 1146

00:51:09,083 --> 00:51:11,393

So I mean, that's, that's

a really good question.

: 1147

00:51:11,393 --> 00:51:14,783

I think, you know, I'm obviously

coming at it from my perspective

: 1148

00:51:14,783 --> 00:51:16,433

as a behaviourist, so I

: 1149

00:51:16,557 --> 00:51:17,217

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's cool.

: 1150

00:51:17,423 --> 00:51:21,683

Daniel: am, am an expert

in terms of human sort of

: 1151

00:51:21,822 --> 00:51:22,922

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, no, it's okay.

: 1152

00:51:23,063 --> 00:51:23,963

Daniel: and, and wellbeing.

: 1153

00:51:23,963 --> 00:51:30,143

But I, I think just in terms of, in terms

of what I see, I think, there's a lot

: 1154

00:51:30,203 --> 00:51:32,423

of, there's a couple of things actually.

: 1155

00:51:32,423 --> 00:51:38,243

I think there's a lot of expectations

that we place on ourselves as, you

: 1156

00:51:38,243 --> 00:51:42,303

know, dog caregivers in terms of,

you know, we'll adopt a dog, we'll

: 1157

00:51:42,303 --> 00:51:45,033

do all this work, you know, we can

put in a lot of work, and then I.

: 1158

00:51:46,203 --> 00:51:50,373

If we start seeing that going downhill

and going off track a little bit, then

: 1159

00:51:50,373 --> 00:51:53,943

that can feel, that can, you know, it

can feel like you failed in some way

: 1160

00:51:53,948 --> 00:51:56,493

and, and, and, you know, it can feel

like you're doing something wrong.

: 1161

00:51:56,493 --> 00:52:00,243

It can be obviously really frustrating

because suddenly we've done all this

: 1162

00:52:00,243 --> 00:52:04,323

work, we've put all this effort in and

the expect, you know, the, the sort

: 1163

00:52:04,323 --> 00:52:08,733

of reinforcer that we were expecting

as a human of the dog kind of being

: 1164

00:52:08,733 --> 00:52:12,243

able to cope in this environment and

behave in a way that we might want

: 1165

00:52:12,243 --> 00:52:14,523

them to as humans isn't happening.

: 1166

00:52:14,807 --> 00:52:15,027

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

: 1167

00:52:15,063 --> 00:52:19,893

Daniel: And I think that's where

sometimes help helping people

: 1168

00:52:19,893 --> 00:52:23,193

make that shift in thinking is

really important to say actually.

: 1169

00:52:23,673 --> 00:52:30,033

Well, you know, I think we have to

understand that the dog's an individual

: 1170

00:52:32,613 --> 00:52:35,493

they're having their own

individual emotional experience.

: 1171

00:52:35,613 --> 00:52:40,383

And just because we've done all that

work and just because we've tried

: 1172

00:52:40,383 --> 00:52:42,843

to teach them all those things,

that doesn't change the fact.

: 1173

00:52:43,653 --> 00:52:45,723

something's going on for them,

that's making 'em feel a bit

: 1174

00:52:45,723 --> 00:52:46,923

differently about stuff now.

: 1175

00:52:48,227 --> 00:52:48,447

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

: 1176

00:52:48,513 --> 00:52:53,763

Daniel: that's not a reflection on, on you

a caregiver, but it's just a reflection

: 1177

00:52:53,763 --> 00:52:55,173

of that dog's emotional experience.

: 1178

00:52:55,173 --> 00:52:58,863

And I think it's, it's weird the

dog industry, because I think we

: 1179

00:52:58,863 --> 00:53:04,083

are, are almost taught to sort of

oversimplify yet also overcomplicate

: 1180

00:53:04,083 --> 00:53:07,083

our dog's experience, which is weird

in the sense that we are kind of

: 1181

00:53:07,083 --> 00:53:08,523

overcomplicating in the sense of thinking.

: 1182

00:53:08,523 --> 00:53:10,983

They have an understanding of all

these cues perfectly and they have

: 1183

00:53:10,983 --> 00:53:14,583

an understanding of how to disobey

us and upset us by disobeying us,

: 1184

00:53:14,583 --> 00:53:16,443

which is not necessarily the case.

: 1185

00:53:16,443 --> 00:53:19,173

Dogs don't, we don't think they

do have a good enough theory of

: 1186

00:53:19,173 --> 00:53:22,053

mind to know that if they don't

follow the cue that we want them to

: 1187

00:53:22,053 --> 00:53:23,733

follow, then that's gonna annoy us.

: 1188

00:53:24,453 --> 00:53:25,743

really have the theory of mind to do that.

: 1189

00:53:25,743 --> 00:53:29,943

But they certainly do have an

emotional experience that's more

: 1190

00:53:29,943 --> 00:53:33,693

complicated than their life revolving

around, you know, 10 or so cues.

: 1191

00:53:34,053 --> 00:53:34,353

So.

: 1192

00:53:35,253 --> 00:53:38,553

You know, they, they have the kind

of their, their emotion, their limbic

: 1193

00:53:38,553 --> 00:53:40,293

system is very, very similar to ours.

: 1194

00:53:40,293 --> 00:53:42,513

It's only kind of some of those

cognitive systems that are a little

: 1195

00:53:42,513 --> 00:53:44,643

bit different, where they're not

gonna understand some of the things

: 1196

00:53:44,643 --> 00:53:46,563

like what other people are thinking.

: 1197

00:53:46,743 --> 00:53:50,223

Some of those more complex sort of

human language and conversations

: 1198

00:53:50,223 --> 00:53:51,333

that we, we might have.

: 1199

00:53:51,663 --> 00:53:55,413

So it's, it is, it's difficult being

a dog, I think from that sense,

: 1200

00:53:55,413 --> 00:53:59,313

because, you know, the expectations

people have are, are difficult.

: 1201

00:53:59,313 --> 00:54:04,953

And also society's expectations on what a

dog should do and how a dog should behave

: 1202

00:54:05,682 --> 00:54:05,972

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1203

00:54:06,393 --> 00:54:08,193

Daniel: huge in the

way they impact people.

: 1204

00:54:08,193 --> 00:54:11,463

You know, taking a dog to a family

function, taking a dog out to

: 1205

00:54:11,463 --> 00:54:15,153

the park, taking to cafes, you

know, if your dog's not behaving.

: 1206

00:54:15,363 --> 00:54:16,173

How so?

: 1207

00:54:16,323 --> 00:54:20,193

How, you know, we think society

will want our dog to behave.

: 1208

00:54:20,193 --> 00:54:23,343

I think sometimes there is a lot of, you

know, guilt and shame and, you know, I'm

: 1209

00:54:23,422 --> 00:54:23,712

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1210

00:54:24,018 --> 00:54:27,408

Daniel: You know, I'm not as good as

other dog owners in, in getting my dog

: 1211

00:54:27,408 --> 00:54:29,358

to, you know, behave and training my dog.

: 1212

00:54:29,358 --> 00:54:32,733

So I think, I think there's just a

lot that comes in there and it, it

: 1213

00:54:32,738 --> 00:54:36,798

can be quite a, you know, a difficult

time for, for a caregiver in that way.

: 1214

00:54:38,362 --> 00:54:39,682

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's funny you say that 'cause

: 1215

00:54:39,682 --> 00:54:42,532

we're a multi dog household

here, so we've got seven dogs.

: 1216

00:54:42,532 --> 00:54:46,492

So we are the crazy dog men here,

but there're only seven little ones.

: 1217

00:54:46,492 --> 00:54:48,472

So it's not like as if they're two German.

: 1218

00:54:48,472 --> 00:54:49,832

She seven German Shepherds.

: 1219

00:54:50,222 --> 00:54:53,192

But when you say, it just made me

think, 'cause my husband always

: 1220

00:54:53,192 --> 00:54:55,052

worries about having people around.

: 1221

00:54:55,052 --> 00:54:56,642

He'd rather go to their house.

: 1222

00:54:56,972 --> 00:55:00,602

But what he doesn't like, like

realizes that they are all dog

: 1223

00:55:00,602 --> 00:55:02,072

people as well and they don't care.

: 1224

00:55:02,342 --> 00:55:05,162

Like he doesn't, you know, our dogs

are not perfect by any means, and

: 1225

00:55:05,162 --> 00:55:08,402

he just worries about obviously like

what people think, you know, because

: 1226

00:55:08,552 --> 00:55:09,842

they're a bit unroll or whatever.

: 1227

00:55:09,842 --> 00:55:13,382

And it's always the way when I'm meant

I'm meant to be a dog trainer, but

: 1228

00:55:13,382 --> 00:55:14,792

their dog people and they don't care.

: 1229

00:55:14,792 --> 00:55:16,592

So you, you shouldn't,

you shouldn't worry.

: 1230

00:55:16,592 --> 00:55:17,012

Should you?

: 1231

00:55:17,788 --> 00:55:21,628

Daniel: Yeah, I think that's the

thing is people generally don't

: 1232

00:55:21,658 --> 00:55:24,088

care as much as you, as you they do.

: 1233

00:55:24,328 --> 00:55:25,168

And I think, you know, it

: 1234

00:55:25,262 --> 00:55:25,682

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1235

00:55:25,708 --> 00:55:28,708

Daniel: us that, that hold ourselves

to these kind of high standards.

: 1236

00:55:28,708 --> 00:55:29,879

And it's, it,

: 1237

00:55:29,942 --> 00:55:30,572

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1238

00:55:30,868 --> 00:55:34,618

Daniel: you know, it's difficult to

kind of sometimes move away from that.

: 1239

00:55:34,618 --> 00:55:37,528

My mindset, even when you've got

the information, like for example,

: 1240

00:55:37,528 --> 00:55:39,988

you know, we've just talked about

all of this, but at the same time.

: 1241

00:55:40,918 --> 00:55:44,488

I could go in public and if a dog's

behaving bad, you know, badly in sort

: 1242

00:55:44,488 --> 00:55:46,948

of inverted commas and doing something

they're not supposed to be, I could

: 1243

00:55:46,948 --> 00:55:52,588

be feeling a bit self-conscious

because, you know, the, the, it, it

: 1244

00:55:52,588 --> 00:55:54,928

is just, it's so programmed into us.

: 1245

00:55:55,038 --> 00:55:55,548

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1246

00:55:55,874 --> 00:55:56,505

Daniel: and, you know,

: 1247

00:55:56,688 --> 00:55:57,318

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1248

00:55:57,534 --> 00:55:59,754

Daniel: When I'm talking about

kind of badly it might be, you

: 1249

00:55:59,754 --> 00:56:02,454

know, trying to steal something or

something like that, that maybe we

: 1250

00:56:02,454 --> 00:56:03,924

haven't taught the dog not to do.

: 1251

00:56:04,224 --> 00:56:04,404

You know,

: 1252

00:56:04,463 --> 00:56:04,753

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1253

00:56:04,824 --> 00:56:09,444

Daniel: nec, what I wouldn't do put a

dog that's gonna be really distressed

: 1254

00:56:09,444 --> 00:56:12,924

going into a public situation in public,

because of course that's not gonna be good

: 1255

00:56:12,924 --> 00:56:17,184

for their kind of wellbeing or, or the

wellbeing of those around the dog either.

: 1256

00:56:17,184 --> 00:56:21,144

But I think, you know, if it's something

that that's just might be frowned

: 1257

00:56:21,144 --> 00:56:23,604

upon as maybe a little bit naughty,

like, you know, trying to steal

: 1258

00:56:23,604 --> 00:56:26,004

stuff or maybe jumping up at people

where they're not supposed to do.

: 1259

00:56:26,859 --> 00:56:28,539

You know, hopefully we

can manage it anyway.

: 1260

00:56:28,539 --> 00:56:31,059

Hopefully, even if we haven't yet

trained the dog not to do that, we

: 1261

00:56:31,059 --> 00:56:33,249

can manage them and prevent them

from doing that sort of thing.

: 1262

00:56:33,249 --> 00:56:34,539

But I think, you know,

: 1263

00:56:34,778 --> 00:56:35,068

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1264

00:56:35,109 --> 00:56:38,559

Daniel: it's most, most people aren't as

bothered about it as, as you might think

: 1265

00:56:38,559 --> 00:56:41,109

they are, particularly if you were going

to a dog park or something like that.

: 1266

00:56:41,439 --> 00:56:41,879

But it

: 1267

00:56:42,088 --> 00:56:42,378

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1268

00:56:42,779 --> 00:56:42,929

Daniel: I know.

: 1269

00:56:43,293 --> 00:56:45,093

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

How, yeah.

: 1270

00:56:45,198 --> 00:56:50,793

Um, how can we manage our own expectations

and not fall into the trap of thinking

: 1271

00:56:50,793 --> 00:56:56,133

that our dog is broken and inverted,

commas or naughty in inverted commerce?

: 1272

00:56:57,989 --> 00:56:58,469

Daniel: Yeah.

: 1273

00:56:58,469 --> 00:57:03,389

I think again, it's sort of, it, it

comes down to just understanding that.

: 1274

00:57:04,289 --> 00:57:08,609

The really, I think things like the,

the term naughty is, is is a difficult

: 1275

00:57:08,609 --> 00:57:14,429

one because don't understand our

rules and our expectations enough

: 1276

00:57:14,429 --> 00:57:16,799

to be naughty knowingly anyway.

: 1277

00:57:16,979 --> 00:57:17,939

If they're doing something that

: 1278

00:57:18,068 --> 00:57:18,288

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Now.

: 1279

00:57:18,539 --> 00:57:21,059

Daniel: naughty, it's just because

they think that's a good thing for

: 1280

00:57:21,059 --> 00:57:23,669

them to do from their, based off

their learning history, based off

: 1281

00:57:23,669 --> 00:57:26,669

their genetics, based on what they

find reinforcing and rewarding.

: 1282

00:57:26,999 --> 00:57:28,289

They just think it's a good thing to do.

: 1283

00:57:28,289 --> 00:57:32,309

They just think jumping up on the counter

and stealing some butter is a great idea.

: 1284

00:57:32,309 --> 00:57:33,659

They don't know that's naughty.

: 1285

00:57:33,659 --> 00:57:35,279

They just think there's food there.

: 1286

00:57:35,669 --> 00:57:36,179

I'll get it.

: 1287

00:57:36,509 --> 00:57:37,229

You know, like there's

: 1288

00:57:37,353 --> 00:57:38,583

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

They're opportunists, aren't they?

: 1289

00:57:38,688 --> 00:57:38,908

So.

: 1290

00:57:39,089 --> 00:57:40,559

Daniel: is a Yeah, there opportunity.

: 1291

00:57:40,559 --> 00:57:41,009

Exactly.

: 1292

00:57:41,009 --> 00:57:41,369

So.

: 1293

00:57:42,344 --> 00:57:46,154

I think kind of moving away from

that, that mindset is keen to sort

: 1294

00:57:46,154 --> 00:57:49,184

of understanding that, you know, that

they, I do think understanding that

: 1295

00:57:49,184 --> 00:57:51,014

they're not cognitive in that sense.

: 1296

00:57:51,014 --> 00:57:53,624

They're not, you know, advanced

thinkers in that sense of

: 1297

00:57:53,624 --> 00:57:57,314

understanding our human rules and

understanding our human expectations.

: 1298

00:57:57,464 --> 00:58:01,844

They're very advanced in many ways, and

that in, in their social processing and

: 1299

00:58:01,844 --> 00:58:04,994

their ability to be able to interact

with us and be able to love us and be

: 1300

00:58:04,994 --> 00:58:09,854

able to share as part of our social

lives incredibly, incredibly advanced.

: 1301

00:58:10,274 --> 00:58:13,364

But in terms of actually cognitive

stuff and just knowing like the rules of

: 1302

00:58:13,364 --> 00:58:15,074

stuff, they don't, they don't get rules.

: 1303

00:58:16,173 --> 00:58:16,323

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: No.

: 1304

00:58:16,833 --> 00:58:20,193

And the thing is they are animals

and animals are like unpredictable.

: 1305

00:58:20,223 --> 00:58:25,743

So, you know, and anything, you can't,

just, anything could happen basically.

: 1306

00:58:25,934 --> 00:58:26,354

Daniel: mean, well that's the

: 1307

00:58:26,423 --> 00:58:27,023

Really, isn't it?

: 1308

00:58:27,697 --> 00:58:27,987

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

: 1309

00:58:28,417 --> 00:58:29,267

Yeah, that's true.

: 1310

00:58:29,887 --> 00:58:32,712

How would you, what would you say

to someone that's currently feeling

: 1311

00:58:32,712 --> 00:58:36,432

like they've lost connection that

they once had with their dog, Daniel?

: 1312

00:58:38,033 --> 00:58:39,263

Daniel: Yeah, and that

sounds really tough.

: 1313

00:58:39,263 --> 00:58:42,023

And I, I think, again, if that's

something that they're experiencing

: 1314

00:58:42,023 --> 00:58:43,313

through adolescence, I think,

: 1315

00:58:45,383 --> 00:58:49,403

you know, sometimes the relat, the

nature of that relationship does change.

: 1316

00:58:49,673 --> 00:58:52,253

I think I've seen a lot of dogs

that do become a lot less cuddly,

: 1317

00:58:52,253 --> 00:58:54,353

for example, during adolescence.

: 1318

00:58:54,593 --> 00:58:58,943

And, you know, that, that I think can

be something that some people struggle

: 1319

00:58:58,943 --> 00:59:02,033

with because suddenly they've gone from

having this lovely, cuddly puppy to

: 1320

00:59:02,033 --> 00:59:04,763

this dog that's, you know, feels like,

doesn't wanna know them, doesn't mean the

: 1321

00:59:04,763 --> 00:59:06,113

dog doesn't necessarily wanna know you.

: 1322

00:59:06,113 --> 00:59:08,303

It just means that maybe they

are, you know, a little bit more

: 1323

00:59:08,333 --> 00:59:12,113

independent, maybe some of those

reinforcer values and has changed.

: 1324

00:59:12,113 --> 00:59:17,033

And sometimes tactile touch isn't so, so

important or so valuable for them anymore.

: 1325

00:59:17,153 --> 00:59:21,233

Or maybe it's just because their kind of

reward system has changed a little bit.

: 1326

00:59:21,233 --> 00:59:24,233

So there's other things in the

environment that are distracting them.

: 1327

00:59:24,233 --> 00:59:28,053

That means that that kind of touch

and engagement isn't something

: 1328

00:59:28,053 --> 00:59:29,373

they're prioritizing as much.

: 1329

00:59:29,373 --> 00:59:29,553

And.

: 1330

00:59:30,483 --> 00:59:35,253

I know quite often sometimes when

dogs hit social maturity, they start

: 1331

00:59:35,253 --> 00:59:36,753

being a bit more tactile again.

: 1332

00:59:36,963 --> 00:59:40,623

But equally, you know, some dogs may just

continue being a little bit less tactile

: 1333

00:59:40,623 --> 00:59:45,333

from maturity, and sometimes the nature

of that social relationship does change.

: 1334

00:59:45,393 --> 00:59:48,813

And that's, you know, that's not

necessarily a bad thing at all.

: 1335

00:59:49,113 --> 00:59:52,683

We are coming at it as humans and

dogs are coming at it as dogs,

: 1336

00:59:52,683 --> 00:59:57,303

and I know that sounds obvious,

but as primates, have a different

: 1337

00:59:57,303 --> 00:59:59,883

way of showing love than dogs do.

: 1338

01:00:00,153 --> 01:00:03,483

If you look at dogs engaging with others,

sometimes we get a headrest, sometimes

: 1339

01:00:03,483 --> 01:00:05,103

we get kind of a bit of body touching.

: 1340

01:00:05,253 --> 01:00:08,823

We don't get things like the big

hugs and the picking up like that

: 1341

01:00:08,823 --> 01:00:12,453

we do as humans, whereas we love

a good hug and that sort of thing.

: 1342

01:00:12,453 --> 01:00:18,063

So we also need to recognize that kind

of, that species differences in the sense

: 1343

01:00:18,063 --> 01:00:19,923

that dogs, you know, if a, if a, if a dog.

: 1344

01:00:19,983 --> 01:00:23,343

It has two pores around you, it

probably means they're gonna hump you.

: 1345

01:00:23,343 --> 01:00:25,143

It doesn't necessarily, doesn't

mean that they want to give

: 1346

01:00:25,143 --> 01:00:26,703

you a hug of the time, right?

: 1347

01:00:26,803 --> 01:00:31,003

Dogs don't really do hugging, so I think

we, we also have to just recognize they've

: 1348

01:00:31,003 --> 01:00:32,563

got a different patterns of engagement.

: 1349

01:00:32,563 --> 01:00:35,443

They've got a different

way of showing that love.

: 1350

01:00:35,683 --> 01:00:39,283

And sometimes it might not even be

with a lot of tactile touch at all.

: 1351

01:00:39,283 --> 01:00:41,383

Sometimes it might just

be being in your presence.

: 1352

01:00:41,383 --> 01:00:45,343

You know, some of the livestock guarding

breeds just love often just sort of being

: 1353

01:00:45,343 --> 01:00:49,783

like in the corner of a room, just part

of the situation, just near you, but not

: 1354

01:00:49,877 --> 01:00:50,097

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

: 1355

01:00:50,173 --> 01:00:51,943

Daniel: of on top of you, which

is probably quite good for

: 1356

01:00:51,943 --> 01:00:54,433

livestock guarding breeds because

otherwise you'd just be sort of

: 1357

01:00:54,763 --> 01:00:56,773

immobilized the whole time as well.

: 1358

01:00:57,013 --> 01:01:02,233

Um, so yeah, I think just, just

different, you know, it is different

: 1359

01:01:02,233 --> 01:01:05,233

species, even different breeds

within dogs have different ways

: 1360

01:01:05,233 --> 01:01:07,253

of expressing their emotions.

: 1361

01:01:07,253 --> 01:01:09,563

And I think just trying to,

trying to be aware of that.

: 1362

01:01:11,112 --> 01:01:11,562

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

: 1363

01:01:11,892 --> 01:01:13,152

Daniel, thank you so much.

: 1364

01:01:13,152 --> 01:01:15,252

This episode has been

absolutely jam packed.

: 1365

01:01:15,252 --> 01:01:18,162

So we're gonna spend the next couple

of minutes just wrapping up with

: 1366

01:01:18,162 --> 01:01:20,172

some final thoughts and questions.

: 1367

01:01:20,392 --> 01:01:24,442

Daniel, if there's one thing that

every guardian should keep in mind

: 1368

01:01:24,442 --> 01:01:26,877

during adolescence, what would it be?

: 1369

01:01:28,923 --> 01:01:33,888

Daniel: I think it would be to sort

of accept that your expectations

: 1370

01:01:33,888 --> 01:01:37,458

might be thrown off kilter a

little bit and just try and

: 1371

01:01:37,852 --> 01:01:38,302

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

: 1372

01:01:38,478 --> 01:01:40,038

Daniel: as you can,

because actually that's an

: 1373

01:01:40,282 --> 01:01:40,792

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

: 1374

01:01:41,388 --> 01:01:42,288

Daniel: and that's gonna help your

: 1375

01:01:42,382 --> 01:01:42,892

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1376

01:01:43,128 --> 01:01:45,258

Daniel: a well-rounded,

socially mature adult.

: 1377

01:01:46,462 --> 01:01:48,382

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, it's only temporary as well.

: 1378

01:01:48,772 --> 01:01:49,072

So

: 1379

01:01:49,128 --> 01:01:49,338

Daniel: Yeah.

: 1380

01:01:50,572 --> 01:01:51,892

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

we teach you a lot of lessons.

: 1381

01:01:52,312 --> 01:01:53,932

Daniel, thank you so much.

: 1382

01:01:54,022 --> 01:01:58,042

How can people connect with

you, learn more about your work

: 1383

01:01:58,042 --> 01:01:59,872

and get involved with a, b, K?

: 1384

01:01:59,902 --> 01:02:04,402

Because actually, before you answer

that, I was one question I did wanna

: 1385

01:02:04,402 --> 01:02:07,792

ask because I like finding out a

little bit about people's journeys.

: 1386

01:02:07,792 --> 01:02:12,052

So, and I've, I didn't ask you this at

the start, but I'm relatively new into

: 1387

01:02:12,052 --> 01:02:15,412

the industry, like seven years and all

these amazings of people I speak to have

: 1388

01:02:15,412 --> 01:02:16,762

been in the industry for quite a while.

: 1389

01:02:16,762 --> 01:02:20,872

But what you mentioned offline before

we came on that you did some dog walking

: 1390

01:02:20,872 --> 01:02:24,772

to for about a year to get some hands-on

experience, but what led you, how did

: 1391

01:02:24,772 --> 01:02:29,122

you get into like the, the role you're

doing now with a, b, K and stuff,

: 1392

01:02:29,418 --> 01:02:31,893

Daniel: Yeah, so it's, it's been an

interesting, um, kind of journey.

: 1393

01:02:31,893 --> 01:02:34,023

I, I started off with some

issues with my own dog.

: 1394

01:02:34,233 --> 01:02:35,133

Um, and that's,

: 1395

01:02:35,182 --> 01:02:35,662

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: right?

: 1396

01:02:36,052 --> 01:02:38,212

That's, that's, that's everyone, isn't it?

: 1397

01:02:38,422 --> 01:02:41,182

Everyone I speak to is issues same as me.

: 1398

01:02:41,853 --> 01:02:45,243

Daniel: And and there obviously

getting kind of the Behavioural

: 1399

01:02:45,263 --> 01:02:46,733

support going down that route.

: 1400

01:02:47,123 --> 01:02:49,763

And then, yeah, I sort of changed

my career path a little bit.

: 1401

01:02:49,763 --> 01:02:51,933

I was going to do a degree in English.

: 1402

01:02:51,963 --> 01:02:54,723

I switched that to do a degree

in psychology, and then I did a

: 1403

01:02:54,753 --> 01:02:56,733

master's degree in neuroscience.

: 1404

01:02:56,953 --> 01:03:00,613

And yeah, at the same time I

also started working with dogs.

: 1405

01:03:00,613 --> 01:03:04,303

I started off working as a dog walker to

get that kind of, more of that hands-on

: 1406

01:03:04,303 --> 01:03:06,643

experience for I think just over a year.

: 1407

01:03:06,893 --> 01:03:07,613

And then kind of

: 1408

01:03:07,667 --> 01:03:08,087

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

: 1409

01:03:08,303 --> 01:03:10,373

Daniel: on the Behaviour

and training side of it.

: 1410

01:03:11,303 --> 01:03:17,273

And, um, yeah, I think I set

up a b, K in, in: 2019

: 1411

01:03:17,573 --> 01:03:17,793

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

: 1412

01:03:17,819 --> 01:03:21,359

Daniel: and yeah, we, so we started

doing Behaviour consultations, that

: 1413

01:03:21,359 --> 01:03:23,729

kind of thing for I think the past.

: 1414

01:03:23,729 --> 01:03:25,019

Yeah, five.

: 1415

01:03:25,754 --> 01:03:27,734

Ish, five plus years now.

: 1416

01:03:27,794 --> 01:03:29,984

So we've had a, I've had a

BK I've did a bit of work for

: 1417

01:03:29,984 --> 01:03:31,544

another company before then, but

: 1418

01:03:31,844 --> 01:03:32,134

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1419

01:03:32,155 --> 01:03:34,525

Daniel: terms of the, and, and the, yeah.

: 1420

01:03:34,585 --> 01:03:39,475

Past years we've started going,

expanding more a little bit into,

: 1421

01:03:39,835 --> 01:03:43,855

I do, we do quite a lot of online

education and educational stuff.

: 1422

01:03:43,855 --> 01:03:44,125

I do

: 1423

01:03:44,219 --> 01:03:44,439

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

: 1424

01:03:44,545 --> 01:03:47,155

Daniel: of expert work for legal

cases, so it's kind of really

: 1425

01:03:47,155 --> 01:03:51,955

expanded, um, which has been, yeah,

an interesting journey for sure.

: 1426

01:03:53,504 --> 01:03:55,544

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: So,

let, we're gonna touch on the conference

: 1427

01:03:55,544 --> 01:03:59,404

'cause I'm gonna get my amazing ladies

at Yappily to get this episode out before

: 1428

01:03:59,404 --> 01:04:02,284

the A BK conference, which is in July.

: 1429

01:04:02,704 --> 01:04:05,824

So, um, we're in June at the

moment on the 12th of June.

: 1430

01:04:05,824 --> 01:04:06,844

So we've got some time.

: 1431

01:04:06,844 --> 01:04:09,964

So just quickly tell us

about the A BK conference.

: 1432

01:04:09,964 --> 01:04:13,804

I got massive FOMO last year, so as

soon as the tickets went on sale for

: 1433

01:04:13,804 --> 01:04:15,844

this year, I was on it like Sonic.

: 1434

01:04:15,844 --> 01:04:19,984

So please tell the listeners our

listeners is I think ticket sales is

: 1435

01:04:19,984 --> 01:04:22,054

still open about the A BK conference.

: 1436

01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:22,350

Daniel: open.

: 1437

01:04:22,350 --> 01:04:26,400

So we are, we are keeping them open till

about three days before the conference.

: 1438

01:04:26,674 --> 01:04:27,454

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Amazing.

: 1439

01:04:27,663 --> 01:04:28,084

Yeah.

: 1440

01:04:28,140 --> 01:04:29,820

Daniel: are gonna close them.

: 1441

01:04:30,100 --> 01:04:32,620

I think both virtual and person

will close about three days before.

: 1442

01:04:32,950 --> 01:04:34,990

So it's our annual Behaviour conference.

: 1443

01:04:35,060 --> 01:04:38,090

It's actually the last one we are

doing for a few years as well.

: 1444

01:04:38,390 --> 01:04:39,020

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: What,

: 1445

01:04:39,601 --> 01:04:39,961

Daniel: yeah,

: 1446

01:04:40,610 --> 01:04:41,330

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: no way.

: 1447

01:04:41,431 --> 01:04:41,911

Daniel: it is,

: 1448

01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:44,210

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Because

you moved, you moved it, didn't you?

: 1449

01:04:44,210 --> 01:04:46,220

You moved it to a

different time of the year.

: 1450

01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:47,180

Yeah,

: 1451

01:04:47,521 --> 01:04:49,681

Daniel: Yeah, I was gonna, we're

gonna do it as a, as a summer

: 1452

01:04:49,711 --> 01:04:51,271

conference going forward as well.

: 1453

01:04:51,830 --> 01:04:52,525

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, yeah.

: 1454

01:04:53,461 --> 01:04:57,511

Daniel: but we're gonna, we are gonna,

I think probably do it bi-annually

: 1455

01:04:57,571 --> 01:05:00,586

going forward, so at least so

it might be that we take a, a, a

: 1456

01:05:00,591 --> 01:05:04,441

couple of, a couple of years off

after this year just because it's

: 1457

01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:05,060

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

: 1458

01:05:05,101 --> 01:05:06,271

Daniel: amount of work is insane.

: 1459

01:05:06,461 --> 01:05:09,041

But it's, it's so exciting.

: 1460

01:05:09,041 --> 01:05:12,341

We've got an amazing lineup

of people for this year.

: 1461

01:05:12,671 --> 01:05:13,151

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1462

01:05:13,372 --> 01:05:16,782

Daniel: got it's, it's a two

day event in Ashford in the uk.

: 1463

01:05:16,812 --> 01:05:19,662

We've got online and in per

and virtual options available.

: 1464

01:05:19,662 --> 01:05:23,471

So you can either come and join

us in person or you can join via

: 1465

01:05:23,471 --> 01:05:25,632

live stream and sort of enjoy

: 1466

01:05:25,651 --> 01:05:25,941

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

: 1467

01:05:26,292 --> 01:05:28,062

Daniel: of your home, which

is always good as well.

: 1468

01:05:28,282 --> 01:05:28,732

Especially for

: 1469

01:05:28,831 --> 01:05:29,121

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

: 1470

01:05:29,272 --> 01:05:32,812

Daniel: many of us surprisingly have

dogs, so that can always be a useful

: 1471

01:05:32,812 --> 01:05:34,642

option if pet sitters are an issue.

: 1472

01:05:34,642 --> 01:05:34,971

So.

: 1473

01:05:35,857 --> 01:05:41,137

Got I think 10 or possibly even 12

when I counted now because we've got a

: 1474

01:05:41,137 --> 01:05:43,057

couple of people doing a double talk.

: 1475

01:05:43,167 --> 01:05:45,357

I think we actually have 12 speakers.

: 1476

01:05:45,537 --> 01:05:47,007

Some amazing people like Dr.

: 1477

01:05:47,007 --> 01:05:52,137

Kathy Murphy, Bobby Bury, Victoria

Stillwell, Trish McMillan,

: 1478

01:05:52,137 --> 01:05:54,507

Suzanne, Claudia, Andrew Hale.

: 1479

01:05:54,927 --> 01:05:57,327

So just a incredible line of people

: 1480

01:05:57,561 --> 01:05:58,171

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Line up.

: 1481

01:05:58,317 --> 01:06:00,807

Daniel: talking about,

um, resilience in dogs.

: 1482

01:06:00,957 --> 01:06:01,647

So it's gonna be,

: 1483

01:06:01,726 --> 01:06:02,176

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1484

01:06:02,427 --> 01:06:03,027

Daniel: couple of days.

: 1485

01:06:03,027 --> 01:06:05,607

We've got some fun stuff going

on for the in-person as well.

: 1486

01:06:05,607 --> 01:06:07,587

We've got a couple of

extra seminars if you

: 1487

01:06:07,661 --> 01:06:07,781

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I.

: 1488

01:06:07,827 --> 01:06:10,167

Daniel: in person so you

can bolt on a couple of

: 1489

01:06:10,441 --> 01:06:11,191

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

: 1490

01:06:11,277 --> 01:06:11,877

Daniel: really get some

: 1491

01:06:12,001 --> 01:06:12,391

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1492

01:06:12,537 --> 01:06:12,777

Daniel: in.

: 1493

01:06:13,137 --> 01:06:13,887

There's a cocktail

: 1494

01:06:13,981 --> 01:06:14,491

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1495

01:06:14,727 --> 01:06:17,217

Daniel: night, which will be a

lot of fun as well, if you like a

: 1496

01:06:17,217 --> 01:06:18,927

cocktail or a cocktail and a dinner.

: 1497

01:06:19,176 --> 01:06:20,341

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I, I definitely do.

: 1498

01:06:21,837 --> 01:06:22,947

Daniel: lots of fun stuff happening.

: 1499

01:06:24,031 --> 01:06:24,361

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1500

01:06:24,511 --> 01:06:25,951

We're mindful of the date as well.

: 1501

01:06:25,951 --> 01:06:26,491

Daniel.

: 1502

01:06:26,577 --> 01:06:29,457

Daniel: Ah, yeah, so it's

the 12th and 13th of July.

: 1503

01:06:30,611 --> 01:06:32,221

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, I got my tickets last year.

: 1504

01:06:32,221 --> 01:06:33,841

As soon as I were on sale,

I was at the airport.

: 1505

01:06:33,841 --> 01:06:37,766

Actually, I'm about to go on holiday, but

I was like, right, gotta sort my parties

: 1506

01:06:37,946 --> 01:06:39,871

out, get my Hightower and tickets sorted.

: 1507

01:06:40,201 --> 01:06:44,011

And Daniel, just quickly, you've just

launched your own podcast, so please

: 1508

01:06:44,011 --> 01:06:45,481

tell our listeners quickly about that.

: 1509

01:06:46,212 --> 01:06:48,492

Daniel: So we've just launched

the Brain and Behaviour podcast.

: 1510

01:06:48,732 --> 01:06:49,032

It's

: 1511

01:06:49,072 --> 01:06:49,522

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Love it.

: 1512

01:06:50,238 --> 01:06:53,418

Daniel: people, generally for dog

professionals or people with a sort

: 1513

01:06:53,418 --> 01:06:56,838

of a very keen interest in dogs,

um, or animal Behaviour generally.

: 1514

01:06:56,838 --> 01:06:59,718

We're doing a few episodes,

not just dog focused as well.

: 1515

01:07:00,048 --> 01:07:00,268

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.

: 1516

01:07:01,194 --> 01:07:05,844

Daniel: it's all about kind of learning

about dog brain, animal brains and

: 1517

01:07:05,844 --> 01:07:09,654

Behaviour and kind of all the, everything

in between in terms of understanding

: 1518

01:07:09,654 --> 01:07:13,464

how Behaviour happens, where it comes

from, how it links the animal's,

: 1519

01:07:13,708 --> 01:07:13,928

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm,

: 1520

01:07:14,304 --> 01:07:16,224

Daniel: how it links the

evolutionary history.

: 1521

01:07:16,374 --> 01:07:19,704

And we talk some amazing guests

in, in kind of different scientific

: 1522

01:07:19,704 --> 01:07:21,024

fields, but also some from

: 1523

01:07:21,028 --> 01:07:21,348

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I do.

: 1524

01:07:21,384 --> 01:07:24,594

Daniel: the training field with more

coming from more kind of a, perspective

: 1525

01:07:24,594 --> 01:07:26,474

as well on sort of a hands-on.

: 1526

01:07:26,694 --> 01:07:27,114

So yeah,

: 1527

01:07:27,123 --> 01:07:27,413

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1528

01:07:27,534 --> 01:07:30,024

Daniel: of really, really exciting

stuff happening with that as well.

: 1529

01:07:30,853 --> 01:07:32,758

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's

so, so you've got so much going on.

: 1530

01:07:32,758 --> 01:07:34,888

You've, I've listened to two

episodes already that have come

: 1531

01:07:34,888 --> 01:07:36,178

out and have absolutely loved it.

: 1532

01:07:36,628 --> 01:07:39,718

So, Daniel, how can people

connect with you, please?

: 1533

01:07:39,778 --> 01:07:43,378

Um, tell us how they can, um,

learn more about you and a BK.

: 1534

01:07:43,809 --> 01:07:44,099

Daniel: Yeah.

: 1535

01:07:44,159 --> 01:07:47,474

So, we've got the A BK Facebook

page, animal Behaviour Kent.

: 1536

01:07:47,504 --> 01:07:50,534

Um, it might be changing soon as

we're doing a bit of a relaunch

: 1537

01:07:50,534 --> 01:07:52,034

over the next couple of months.

: 1538

01:07:52,084 --> 01:07:52,324

But if

: 1539

01:07:52,358 --> 01:07:52,928

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

: 1540

01:07:52,994 --> 01:07:55,744

Daniel: Behaviour, Kent, you'll,

you'll find all of our stuff still.

: 1541

01:07:55,874 --> 01:07:59,904

But we'll also have kind of a

bit of a new kind of side to our,

: 1542

01:07:59,909 --> 01:08:01,314

our business coming out soon.

: 1543

01:08:01,314 --> 01:08:01,674

So,

: 1544

01:08:01,884 --> 01:08:02,854

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: oh wow.

: 1545

01:08:02,865 --> 01:08:06,645

Daniel: name going on and, and, and

it's sort of two things going on, that

: 1546

01:08:06,645 --> 01:08:10,995

will be why, as we're kind of starting

to separate A, B, K, and the online

: 1547

01:08:10,995 --> 01:08:12,345

education side of it a little bit

: 1548

01:08:12,514 --> 01:08:12,994

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1549

01:08:13,179 --> 01:08:13,419

Brilliant.

: 1550

01:08:13,639 --> 01:08:19,024

Daniel, thank you so much for joining

me on the Yappy Hour, powered by Yapper.

: 1551

01:08:19,024 --> 01:08:21,274

You are a fountain of knowledge.

: 1552

01:08:21,274 --> 01:08:22,863

I could listen to you all day.

: 1553

01:08:23,214 --> 01:08:25,434

We definitely have to get you back

on the future 'cause I know you've

: 1554

01:08:25,434 --> 01:08:28,493

got some other interests like

neuroscience and things like that.

: 1555

01:08:28,493 --> 01:08:30,413

So I'd love to have you

back on in the future.

: 1556

01:08:30,774 --> 01:08:33,984

But thank you so much for joining

me today on the happy hour.

: 1557

01:08:34,670 --> 01:08:35,240

Daniel: No problem at all.

: 1558

01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:38,720

It's been fantastic talking to you,

and yeah, I look forward to seeing

: 1559

01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:40,100

you in a couple of weeks as well.

: 1560

01:08:41,274 --> 01:08:42,144

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I'll see you then.

: 1561

01:08:42,144 --> 01:08:42,743

Thank you.

: 1562

01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:43,970

Daniel: Thanks.

: 1563

01:08:45,715 --> 01:08:45,835

I.

: 1564

01:08:47,393 --> 01:08:52,223

That was such an insightful and

reassuring chat with Daniel Shaw.

: 1565

01:08:52,493 --> 01:08:55,702

Here are some key takeaways

from today's episode.

: 1566

01:08:56,063 --> 01:09:01,073

Number one, adolescence is

normal and a necessary stage.

: 1567

01:09:01,372 --> 01:09:03,803

It's not regression, it's rewiring.

: 1568

01:09:04,417 --> 01:09:07,928

Number two, emotional

wobbles are to be expected.

: 1569

01:09:08,138 --> 01:09:09,638

Your dog isn't broken.

: 1570

01:09:09,848 --> 01:09:10,988

They're just quiring.

: 1571

01:09:11,558 --> 01:09:15,667

Number three, connection and

co-regulation are everything.

: 1572

01:09:16,178 --> 01:09:20,348

Your calm, consistent support

matters more than perfection.

: 1573

01:09:20,858 --> 01:09:21,698

Number four.

: 1574

01:09:22,048 --> 01:09:25,198

You are not alone and you are not failing.

: 1575

01:09:25,558 --> 01:09:27,928

So many guardians go through this.

: 1576

01:09:27,988 --> 01:09:29,848

It's all part of the journey.

: 1577

01:09:30,268 --> 01:09:33,718

Daniel, thank you for giving

us all permission to breathe.

: 1578

01:09:33,988 --> 01:09:36,778

Slow down and trust the process.

: 1579

01:09:37,258 --> 01:09:38,638

If you'd like to learn more.

: 1580

01:09:39,077 --> 01:09:41,988

Head to animal Behaviour kent.co

: 1581

01:09:42,167 --> 01:09:46,368

uk or check out the

upcoming A BK conference.

: 1582

01:09:46,728 --> 01:09:51,048

And if you enjoyed this episode,

please subscribe, leave a review,

: 1583

01:09:51,288 --> 01:09:56,148

and share it with a fellow guardian

navigating the teenage phase.

: 1584

01:09:56,628 --> 01:10:00,258

This has been the yappy hour,

and I'll see you next time.

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