A Chat with TOW'rs: Duo Celebrating 10 Years of Music and Transformation with "Versions"

Kyle Miller: 00:00:09

I think that we all contain many different versions of ourselves and

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part of the work of any human is to accept

all of those versions and celebrate and

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laugh at it and take forward the things

that were worth taking forward and not,

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and this maybe gets into the goldfish

You know, of Ted Lasso and bring, bring

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forward the things worth bringing forward

and forgetting the things that, um,

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are just unnecessary, heavy baggage.

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So we actually, I interfaced a lot in

this record with a few of songs that, um,

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I was feeling that way towards because

I wanted to, I wanted to like hold.

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my younger self and be like, I love you.

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Jason English (Host): Welcome to

curious goldfish, a podcast community

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where music and curiosity come together

through interesting conversations

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with the music makers of our world.

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I'm your host, Jason English.

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You can find curious goldfish and all the

major podcast and social media platforms.

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And of course we have all of our content

on our website, curious goldfish.

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com.

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MacBook Pro Microphone: That guitar

riff, from a song called "girl in Calico.

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Has stuck in my head ever since

the first time I heard it.

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Soon after joining Spotify and

having the streaming service to

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you by random radio playlist,

based on music I had already liked.

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It's a song by Arizona based duo TOW'rs,

comprised of Kyle and Gretta Miller.

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Who are married and have

two children together.

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I reached out to them in the summer

of: 2024

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bit about their background, very

similar to mine from the standpoint

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of having spent a good chunk of

formative years in a Christian college

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organization called young life.

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MacBook Pro Microphone-1: I was

intrigued to hear their perspective.

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On that and how it shaped

their music in marriage.

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Both when they first met, and today.

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They've changed and evolved

for sure, as most should.

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And now 10 years since the first

album, that evolution is embodied

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in a new album called "versions.

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A reimagination of 10 songs

from the first five albums.

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MacBook Pro Microphone-2: There

sound remained soft and sweet.

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In these new versions, similar to

what Kyle was just referencing.

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Represent different versions of the

musicians just as there are different

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versions of ourselves as humans.

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I encourage you to listen intently to

their comments, not only about faith.

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But about each other

and their relationship.

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They are an inspiration for all of us.

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That true love is out there.

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MacBook Pro Microphone-3:

And we can continue to become

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better versions of ourselves.

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each and every day..

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MacBook Pro Microphone-2: And yes,

there's a new version of "girl in Calico.

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On this new album.

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So be sure to check that out.

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Also, stick around to the end.

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As they perform my new

favorite version song.

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Called tightrope Walker.

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From Flagstaff, Arizona, here are

Kyle and Gretta Miller of TOW'rs.

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Let's dive in.

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Jason English (Host):

Gretta and Kyle Miller.

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It's such an honor.

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Thanks for your time.

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Kyle Miller: for having us on.

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Gretta Miller: Yeah.

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Excited to be here.

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Jason English (Host): I saw you out

in, uh, you're on Flagstaff, right?

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Is that your, is that your house?

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Kyle Miller: We are in flag right now.

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Yeah, this we're right now we're

in our studio that we built.

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And, um, 2016,

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Jason English (Host): Okay.

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Kyle Miller: It's a detached

building in our backyard.

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Jason English (Host): Okay.

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Well, that's cool.

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Well, again, it's a pleasure.

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Uh, I know you have a lot going

on with family and with, Albums

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and probably shows and stuff.

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So thanks for taking the time.

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I guess I want to talk about the project

that's in the works, but I just have

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a couple of like random questions to

kind of get us going if you don't mind.

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So, um, so Gretta, I'll start with you.

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What's the one thing you appreciate

most about Kyle as like a life partner?

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Kyle Miller: Oh man, you're

on the spot right now.

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That's a

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Gretta Miller: good one.

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What's the one thing I

appreciate about Kyle?

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Kyle Miller: His dishes.

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Gretta Miller: He does all the dishes.

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Jason English (Host): Okay,

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Gretta Miller: Um, no,

that is not my one thing.

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That is very kind and gracious though.

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I do other things, but

he's amazing at that.

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Um, I would say Hmm, he's,

I just have to pick one?

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I want to list, like, three.

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Um, if I just have to pick one,

I would say He makes me laugh.

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We laugh together, and I think laughter

is medicine, especially in a relationship.

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I think we have to laugh and play

together, um, so that's the big one.

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But he also is quick to say sorry, and

he's kind, and he's curious, and open

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minded, and I love all those things too.

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Jason English (Host): well, that's cool.

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All right.

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Those are good things.

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Good job, Kyle.

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Way to bring it.

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That's good.

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And I just think same thing for you.

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What do you, what do you

appreciate most about Gretta?

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Kyle Miller: I think it's, you

know, because people are always

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changing, I think probably what I most

appreciate is always changing too.

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I think right now the thing I

appreciate most about Gretta in this

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season of life is um, a listening ear.

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I don't, it sounds like maybe you've been

in a partnership or have been married

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for a long time but for us it's just

I think the value of having someone to

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bounce ideas or thoughts off of without,

um, Without them wanting to fix it,

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or without them wanting to fix you or

the situation, is, is something that

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Gretta is really good at, and I, I've

been needing, I've been in need of those

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conversations lately, so, I've been

really appreciating that about her, but

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she has a multitude of qualities that

would also fall under that category.

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Jason English (Host): All right.

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Well, that's awesome.

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And I appreciate you sharing.

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That's great.

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Um, I'm not going to ask the opposite,

but I will, I will add something that

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I've wanted to ask you all is, You know,

uh, do you ever get sick of each other

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just given all the, you know, all the

things that you guys got going on, I,

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you know, and it, I guess it's okay if

you say no, but I, I would kind of call

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bullshit on that, but you know, like,

what do you, like, what do you, uh, Yeah.

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Gretta Miller: like, are

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Kyle Miller: you sick of me?

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Gretta Miller: Um, I mean, I

definitely need alone time sometimes.

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Um, I don't think it's because

I hate Kyle or don't want Kyle

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around, but I do think that solitude

is so important for my spirit.

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And, um, so yeah, I, I guess, I

mean, we do a lot of life together.

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Yeah.

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We have this.

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We have this band together when

we're on tour, we're crammed in a van

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together and You know, doing these

big, you know, sometimes stressful

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things for a month, solid together.

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Um, but in general, I, I mean,

I really like having him around.

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I feel like we've kind of figured

out a way to make it work.

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And I feel like we just

have to communicate a lot.

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Like, Hey, what do you need?

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Like I gotta, I need to just like go on

a walk or I need to, you know, go, go

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read or go be with a friend or something.

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But, um, so I definitely need alone time,

definitely need time away sometimes.

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But we do a lot of life together

and I'm really grateful that we

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get to do a lot of life together.

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Jason English (Host): Oh, that's awesome.

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No, that's good.

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Yeah.

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I mean, again, not to rehash it, but

that, that, that is a lot that y'all do.

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I mean, not just the band and the, and

the kids and the family, but I think

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y'all are like entrepreneurs, right?

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Like you, it's like your own business.

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So that just, all those things kind

of can contribute to a lot of stress.

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And, uh, so kudos to you guys for figuring

it out and, and doing life together.

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It's, it's, it's really cool to see.

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Um, so thank

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Kyle Miller: I don't know

if we've figured it out, but

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we're, we're trying really hard.

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We're having fun.

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Yeah, I don't feel like I get tired of

Gretta, but yeah, I think the, it is,

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yeah, it's a funny thing to think about.

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I don't, I genuinely don't think

I've ever been sick of her.

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I think it's mostly being just like in

a space where I understand I need to be

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alone, but I'm pretty introverted because

I, my day job right now, right when we're

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not, you know, touring as I work in the

studio and do mixing and engineering.

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So I'm naturally by myself a lot in that.

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So that's,

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Jason English (Host): Well, I know your,

your story is pretty well documented

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about, you know, northern Arizona and

the music with, uh, you know, some of

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the young life stuff and everything.

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So I'm not going to go into that because

I think that's pretty well documented.

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But I am curious about sort of, I

think you guys played music together,

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weren't dating, but like there was a

crush kind of back and forth, I guess.

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Was it love at first sight?

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And then what was the first move that

Kyle made or Gretta did you make the move?

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Like, I, I haven't found that answer out.

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can you take us back to that moment?

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Kyle Miller: it's debated in our

relationship with who made the first move.

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so we were friends for two

years before we started dating.

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Um, but yeah, love at first

sight is maybe like, not to be

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unromantic, but I don't know if, I

don't know if it was that, was it?

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Did you love me?

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I'm sorry.

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Gretta Miller: I feel like there was

always a certain, like, energy and

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attraction, um, but yeah, it wasn't like

certainty or love by any means, but I

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mean, I remember I had maybe seen him

around when we went to college together.

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I had seen him around at a couple social

events and then I ended up going to a

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friend's house and they were kind of

hanging out and doing a bunch of just

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goofy stuff and the first time I ever like

heard him play a song on the guitar, he

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was just like belting Since You've Been

Gone by Kelly Clarkson, which is like not

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in his normal repertoire by any means.

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But, um, but I just loved like, yeah.

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The goofiness and the joy behind that.

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Um, and I'm trying to think,

I mean, the first move,

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Kyle Miller: I think, I think

genuinely the first move was probably

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made by Gretta, but I made myself

available for the first move.

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Jason English (Host): All right, there you

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Kyle Miller: So, I mean,

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Gretta Miller: the first real move,

if we want to get into details here,

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like we were hanging out with like

a few friends and watching a movie.

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Um, and I think I had like a pillow on

my lap and we were sitting next to each

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other on a couch and I had a pillow

on my lap and we were all just like

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a group of friends watching a movie.

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And at some point Kyle like laid his

head on the pillow that was on my lap.

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So, I don't know if that's the first

move, okay, so he's on the pillow,

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but then I, at a certain point,

started playing with his hair.

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Jason English (Host): Perfect.

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Gretta Miller: So, I feel like

my move was a little bolder,

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Yeah, definitely.

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All right.

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Well, thanks for sharing.

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Gretta Miller: that night, later that

night, he texted me and was like,

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we should go on a walk and talk.

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And so, then we started talking

about what this is a little bit

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more, and it was really sweet.

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Jason English (Host): I love that.

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Yeah.

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Um, all right.

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So, uh, you all are six albums

in and it's been 10 years since,

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since y'all started making music.

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Is that right?

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Um, I think, I think you guys are about

to announce or have announced sort

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of a 10 year Anniversary project, I

guess, you know, what is that about?

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Uh, what's the timing of that and

kind of what does that entail exactly?

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Kyle Miller: yeah, so that's gonna

we're actually gonna announce this

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next week that we're gonna release

that on august 23rd um The idea of

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the project so we have six albums.

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This project didn't include Um any songs

from our christmas album, but what we

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decided to do is kind of our more um

normal times of the year albums Uh, we

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decided to take two songs from each of

those And redo them kind of so yeah, the

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the angle That we took was doing almost

a collaboration with our older selves

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and covering basically the old songs and

playing them in the way that we sing now.

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Um, we changed up a couple of lyrics.

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We changed the keys cause I, I

can't sing quite as high as I did

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on the first couple of records.

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So, um, yeah, it was just sort

of this collaboration between

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our old selves and who we are now

and who we've journeyed to be.

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Um, And it was a really fun process

at first, semi, um, what's the word?

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I don't want to use the word painful

because that's not the right word.

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Uncomfortable, maybe.

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Some of the songs we don't play anymore.

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So it was interesting to interface with

them again in a way that's like really

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intimate because when you're recording

a song and working on a song you really

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need to give a big part of your heart to

it in order, in order for me to feel like

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it's genuine and something worth sharing.

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So it was great, lots of good

conversations were had in the midst

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of all that about who we've become

and Um, wrestling with who we were

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then and celebrating that and all,

all of the kind of like mixed bag

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of emotions that came with that.

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But that in a nutshell

is what the project is.

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Two songs from each of our five main

albums, excluding our Christmas album.

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And we basically re covered

them, so, or covered them.

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Jason English (Host): All right.

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Well, that's exciting.

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Gretta Miller: Yeah, they feel

unique and they feel way different

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than the originals, but still

the heart of it and the melody of

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it rings true to what they were.

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But it was really fun to dive back

in and, you know, there's two of the

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songs that normally Kyle would lead

and now I'm leading and one song

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that I would normally lead that now

is more of a call and response duet.

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Um, and really, yeah, some songs

It's where it's changed less in

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some songs where we rewrote the

whole, you know, half of the chorus.

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And so it's exciting.

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I'm really excited to

share it with everyone.

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Jason English (Host): so Kyle, you've

talked in other interviews about

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the challenges you had with singing

the early music, I think, you know,

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through like, I think that there's

a couple of interviews where you're

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like, oh my gosh, I can't do it.

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You know, I just can't, you know?

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Um, so I guess.

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Tell me, like, was that easy to overcome

some of those, uh, some of those, I

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don't know if there are emotional gaps

or challenges with that, or have you, had

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you kind of moved beyond some of that?

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I think you had references a little bit

of bitterness, you know, in terms of,

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you know, some of those early works.

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Cause I think you think if I

recall, you guys didn't really

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intend to build a career on music.

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So you, you sort of just made the

music and not really thinking.

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And obviously you were inexperienced,

but not really thinking like

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this was going to be the thing.

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So you, I think you at one point

indicated, yeah, like I wouldn't have

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done it the, the, the way it was, but

it was, that was the moment in time.

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Kyle Miller: I'm glad you brought that

up because I feel like there's, there's a

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lot around, um, it's been interesting for

me, um, to try to figure out how to like.

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Accept the wholeness of the journey

when it's been so out in the open.

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Um, I, and not that TOW'rs

is some famous project.

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Like I'm very aware that we're an indie

small to mid level band, but I think it's

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interesting to, to try to figure out.

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Um, the ego in the midst of

all of the sharing, um, and

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how to, how to let the ego die.

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And I, there was a big season of

my life where it was very difficult

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for me to sing certain songs in our

discography, um, based off of what I

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felt like they represented at the time.

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That I wrote them and then contrasting

that to who I feel like I have become.

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But I think, um, over the last couple

of years through thinking and, and, um,

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just being able to, I think just growing

as a, as a person, I'm trying to not

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take all that so seriously, I guess.

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And just understanding that we all,

there's a great poem that we have

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on, we have a little line of it on

the back, um, of our, Uh, of our

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vinyl and it's by Emerson, I believe

I need to look it up, but he says I

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contain multitudes and I, I like that.

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I think that we all contain many different

versions of ourselves and part of the

299

: 00:18:23

work of any human is to accept all of

those versions and celebrate and laugh at

300

: 00:18:28

it and take forward the things that were

worth taking forward and not, and this

301

: 00:18:35

maybe gets into the goldfish um, ideas.

302

: 00:18:38

You know, of Ted Lasso and bring, bring

forward the things worth bringing forward

303

: 00:18:43

and forgetting the things that, um,

are just unnecessary, heavy baggage.

304

: 00:18:48

So we actually, I interfaced a lot in

this record with a few of songs that, um,

305

: 00:18:54

I was feeling that way towards because

I wanted to, I wanted to like hold.

306

: 00:19:01

my younger self and be like, I love you.

307

: 00:19:04

I love who you were then.

308

: 00:19:06

And I love who you, we've

become all the Kyle's.

309

: 00:19:09

Jason English (Host): Right.

310

: 00:19:10

Kyle Miller: And I, I want, I think

that's the story I want to tell as an

311

: 00:19:15

artist is, is to be for Gretta and I,

in our relationship, the journey, um,

312

: 00:19:22

of figuring out what it looks like to be

in a partnership and the challenges and

313

: 00:19:26

celebrations, but also, yeah, to have

so many albums and have like, To be, um,

314

: 00:19:32

lucky enough to have had a long enough

career and put out enough, um, and put

315

: 00:19:39

out enough music to kind of, I guess, have

to work with a lot of different versions

316

: 00:19:44

of yourself every time you put a gig on.

317

: 00:19:47

You're like,

318

: 00:19:48

Jason English (Host): Well, I don't

want, I don't want to assume anything,

319

: 00:19:49

but are you mostly referencing like

your old self and your new self

320

: 00:19:54

sort of to that spiritual journey?

321

: 00:19:56

You know, is that, is that

kind of the crux of it or is

322

: 00:19:58

it, is it, am I missing that?

323

: 00:20:02

Kyle Miller: no, you're not,

you're not missing that.

324

: 00:20:04

I think that's a part of it.

325

: 00:20:05

I think there's also parts of it.

326

: 00:20:07

The way that the songs were written

or, um, but that's also, I think why

327

: 00:20:13

maybe they're special and why I've

come to fall in love with them again,

328

: 00:20:16

is that there was a beginner's mind

that I think is important to take

329

: 00:20:21

on all creative endeavors of not

really knowing what you're doing.

330

: 00:20:25

And that being kind of the magic of

why it ends up being kind of cool and

331

: 00:20:30

why people seem to be drawn to it.

332

: 00:20:31

And yeah, the spiritual side of

it was, was a big piece of it.

333

: 00:20:35

Um, but also, um, that, that's

another part of my life.

334

: 00:20:40

I feel like I've kind of come back

around on to having a bit more just

335

: 00:20:44

gentleness and softness with maybe I

have had in the last, um, five years

336

: 00:20:50

just because, I, I really, I really

do think, um, that the intentions of

337

: 00:20:57

that, of that space in my life was to

be kind and love people, and, um, it's

338

: 00:21:01

the same now, and there's a lot of

similar avenues that I take to get there

339

: 00:21:06

spiritually, um, some of them have

changed, but, and that's a big part

340

: 00:21:10

of the Tower story that is important,

I think, to tell and not avoid, um,

341

: 00:21:16

about, you know, our walk with, um,

with faith and, um, Figuring out, out

342

: 00:21:22

what that looks like to us now and how

to take forward the things we're taking

343

: 00:21:26

forward and leave behind the things

that are maybe we're evolving out of,

344

: 00:21:31

Gretta Miller: Yeah.

345

: 00:21:31

I think that, you know, it was a, it was

a big one and the, the two songs that we

346

: 00:21:36

chose to cover from our very first album

are, uh, belly of the Deepest Love and.

347

: 00:21:43

Swelling Sea.

348

: 00:21:44

Mm hmm.

349

: 00:21:44

That's from the first album.

350

: 00:21:45

I almost forgot.

351

: 00:21:45

And Swelling Sea, and yeah, Belly

of the Deepest Love is the song

352

: 00:21:49

that we changed the most lyrics in.

353

: 00:21:52

I mean, really the only song

we changed a lot of lyrics in,

354

: 00:21:54

and, um, it was so interesting.

355

: 00:21:57

I feel like it took us a longer time

than we expected to do that rewrite,

356

: 00:22:02

and to really sit with the song and

feel out what it means to us now.

357

: 00:22:08

Cause the hope was not to critique or

slam anything or anyone, but just to

358

: 00:22:15

realize like, oh, when we wrote this

song and we were singing about this

359

: 00:22:18

sweet connection we feel to the divine,

like we don't want to minimize that.

360

: 00:22:22

We want to make it bigger.

361

: 00:22:24

We want to make it even more

beautiful and expansive and inclusive.

362

: 00:22:28

Um, so yeah, getting to sit with

some of those words and taking out

363

: 00:22:33

some of the blame and shame language

and getting to add words about just.

364

: 00:22:38

Always being carried

and always being free.

365

: 00:22:41

Um, this type of language just feels so

much more full and connective and, um,

366

: 00:22:47

yeah, cause that's still a sweet part

of our life, but we get to, um, yeah,

367

: 00:22:52

just kind of resonate it with the way

that's authentic to who we are now.

368

: 00:22:56

Jason English (Host): Okay.

369

: 00:22:57

That's beautiful.

370

: 00:22:58

Yeah.

371

: 00:22:58

Well, well said.

372

: 00:22:59

Um, so y'all referenced

something that I think is a

373

: 00:23:03

really perfect analogy for this.

374

: 00:23:05

I think you guys said that you had a

bike in your backyard that at one point

375

: 00:23:09

that you were trying to fix up and it

was, you're trying to make decisions

376

: 00:23:13

around, okay, which parts to keep that

are worth keeping and which parts needed

377

: 00:23:16

to be kind of refreshed, I guess, and

I don't want to get into doctrine or,

378

: 00:23:21

or, you know, if it's too personal,

like, let me know, but I'm, I'm, I'm

379

: 00:23:24

actually curious cause I, I have, I

spent a lot of time with young life.

380

: 00:23:28

Uh, and another organization

called K life, which is based on

381

: 00:23:33

a camp in, uh, in, in the Midwest.

382

: 00:23:35

And I mean, I grew up going to church

three times a week, religiously,

383

: 00:23:40

like literally religiously.

384

: 00:23:41

And, uh, it's a big, big, big part of my

childhood and I don't have really regrets.

385

: 00:23:46

I mean, there's, I guess a few here

and there, but my, my faith is, you

386

: 00:23:51

know, some days I'm like, okay, what,

what is it that I actually believe?

387

: 00:23:54

I guess I'm just curious.

388

: 00:23:56

Because that is such an

important part of your life.

389

: 00:23:58

Like, what are those things about the

faith, about your faith as a Christian

390

: 00:24:02

that you still back to the bike are

going to keep, and then, you know, and

391

: 00:24:06

then other things you've sort of like,

you know, swapped, swapped in and out.

392

: 00:24:09

Would you consider yourself Christians

anymore I'm just curious because your

393

: 00:24:12

music is so beautiful and your journey

is so relatable to, I think a lot of

394

: 00:24:17

Christians like in their early to mid

thirties to like fifties that are,

395

: 00:24:21

that have really kind of like looked

back at their childhood and high school

396

: 00:24:25

and college experiences going, okay,

that was cool for a lot of reasons,

397

: 00:24:28

but like, I'm not so sure anymore.

398

: 00:24:30

And I think a lot of us are still

kind of like working through that.

399

: 00:24:34

Kyle Miller: Yeah.

400

: 00:24:34

No, I think you're right.

401

: 00:24:35

Yeah.

402

: 00:24:36

I was just going to say that.

403

: 00:24:37

I think there's a lot

of people who grew up.

404

: 00:24:40

In in that in that world and there was so

much beauty in it, too Um, I think both

405

: 00:24:46

Gretta and I would probably land on a

similar Space I would say um but you know

406

: 00:24:54

to me the whole conversation around like

giving a title to what I believe feels

407

: 00:25:00

really difficult because um, I think as

in like three years ago, if you would

408

: 00:25:06

have asked me this question, I would have

been like nah, man I would have felt like

409

: 00:25:10

I have some sort of ego to preserve or

Like, I felt, like, embarrassed, but I,

410

: 00:25:16

I do think there's so many people that

resonate with it, and the, the great

411

: 00:25:21

thing is, is like, if people disagree

with me, they don't, that's totally fine.

412

: 00:25:24

Doesn't matter to me.

413

: 00:25:26

Um, but where I personally land

these days is, I feel more mystic

414

: 00:25:30

and more, um, of just like a

seeker of, of what I would maybe

415

: 00:25:36

capitalize as, like, just the divine.

416

: 00:25:40

Um, and there's still aspects

of Christianity that are really

417

: 00:25:46

important to me, um, caring

for the poor, um, nonviolence.

418

: 00:25:53

There's lots of, there's lots of,

I think, pillars of that, that

419

: 00:25:58

I, that I hold really dear to me.

420

: 00:26:01

Um, so, and, and there's like,

still a community here that is a

421

: 00:26:07

welcoming community to, to Um, to

us that we love to participate in.

422

: 00:26:13

It, it, it is not traditional in any

sense with like the, the way that it

423

: 00:26:19

goes about, um, talking about that.

424

: 00:26:23

But yeah, for me personally, I think I

land more in, in a space of, mysticism

425

: 00:26:29

and being really okay with not

knowing things and that actually, that

426

: 00:26:34

actually being sort of a foundation,

a comforting foundation for me.

427

: 00:26:40

Um, and yes, in truly seeking and being

open to whatever, um, the divine and God

428

: 00:26:47

can look like and, and seeing that truth

in Other spaces besides Christianity.

429

: 00:26:52

To me, it's not exclusive Christianity,

um, but it is still a space that I

430

: 00:26:58

find truth in, but yeah, I don't, I'm

not sure I would, it involves a larger

431

: 00:27:04

conversation to me to be able to say like,

are you, are you this or are you that?

432

: 00:27:09

To me, I'm just kind of like, man, I

think I'm a, I'm a human who just I

433

: 00:27:14

want to love people well while I have

time on this earth, and I want to, um,

434

: 00:27:22

And if that, if my faith practice helps

me to do that, then I think it's true.

435

: 00:27:27

And I think that for other people too, if

it's causing them to, it's causing them

436

: 00:27:32

to live a life in a way that, Is being

kind and taking care of other people

437

: 00:27:39

and is rooted in loves and I don't know,

I just think, I think it's kind of all

438

: 00:27:43

in, but I know a lot of people wouldn't

agree with that and that's totally fine.

439

: 00:27:47

Jason English (Host): Thank you for that.

440

: 00:27:48

Yeah.

441

: 00:27:48

Gretta anything to add, add to

that from your perspective or

442

: 00:27:52

Gretta Miller: Yeah, I mean, I don't

want to talk too long, but, um, no, I

443

: 00:27:57

mean, I, I love, I love what you said.

444

: 00:27:59

I think there's, there's so much good

in, I think, seeing, Like, the beauty

445

: 00:28:06

of the world around us and the, and

the, the bigness of maybe the idea

446

: 00:28:10

of God, if you resonate with that.

447

: 00:28:12

And I think with me, there's just been

such a, such a shift of like, that's

448

: 00:28:16

not something that's outside of us

that we need to like, go attain, like

449

: 00:28:21

it's something that's already in you.

450

: 00:28:23

It's something that's

already in each of us.

451

: 00:28:25

It's um, so I think really resonating

with like, Oh, like that is, that is

452

: 00:28:30

in me and that is like love and light

and like, I can care for myself and

453

: 00:28:36

I can love myself and how that is

connective and I can, yeah, I just

454

: 00:28:40

think that, I mean, I really still do.

455

: 00:28:43

Um, love like the ideas of, of Jesus and

learning about that and, um, and I think

456

: 00:28:51

it's sad how our culture has taken so

much of that, um, and flipped it upside

457

: 00:28:58

down and used it to persecute and exclude

people and to pick sides and to, um, cause

458

: 00:29:05

violence because it's just the opposite.

459

: 00:29:07

Um, I don't think that, um.

460

: 00:29:09

Learning about God or Jesus means

like, hey, you have to believe these

461

: 00:29:13

things and say this certain prayer.

462

: 00:29:15

Like, I just think that that's bullshit.

463

: 00:29:17

I think that it's like, I think that

it's about like, literally loving

464

: 00:29:21

everyone and like, let's care for this

earth and let's care for each other and

465

: 00:29:25

let's like, make this a kinder world.

466

: 00:29:28

So, um, if that's the type of Christianity

we're talking about where We are partying

467

: 00:29:34

with our gay friends and our female

pastors and our immigrant friends and

468

: 00:29:41

our people who look different and speak

different, and I'm here for that party.

469

: 00:29:45

Jason English (Host):

Yeah, that's well said.

470

: 00:29:46

Um, I don't know.

471

: 00:29:48

I don't know if this was one of the

two songs that you picked off of

472

: 00:29:50

joy alchemy, but Uncertainty comes

to mind like on this topic, right?

473

: 00:29:57

Um, and I think, uh, and again, I'm taking

a stab here cause I don't know if it's on

474

: 00:30:02

the, the, the album that you're about to

announce, but you know, one thing I had

475

: 00:30:06

a conversation with another artist named

a Cereus Bright, he, he's from Tennessee.

476

: 00:30:10

He moved to Mexico

477

: 00:30:11

Kyle Miller: Yeah.

478

: 00:30:11

Jason English (Host): grew up.

479

: 00:30:12

Kyle Miller: I'm aware of street.

480

: 00:30:13

Jason English (Host): Yeah, he has

a pastor's kid and I just had this

481

: 00:30:15

conversation with him like a week and

a half ago where we both were talking

482

: 00:30:20

through and it's like, it's okay to

be uncertain, like the nuance, the

483

: 00:30:24

mystery, you know, like, cause we,

we both were talking about, you know,

484

: 00:30:28

growing up, there was a lot of like

pressure around, well, this is truth.

485

: 00:30:32

It's black and white and like, as you

grow older, at least my, my experience

486

: 00:30:35

was, you know what, it's not, it's not

that clear, you know, and it's okay.

487

: 00:30:40

Right.

488

: 00:30:40

And to your point, like being a seeker

and, you know, being okay with that.

489

: 00:30:44

I think that's, you know,

I can relate to that.

490

: 00:30:46

Right.

491

: 00:30:46

but like the lyric that I love was like

each path we're taking, I'm on your side.

492

: 00:30:50

There's no way of knowing

which one is right.

493

: 00:30:52

Right.

494

: 00:30:52

But we can dance in the hour dance

in the unknown and if heaven gets

495

: 00:30:56

too heavy, we'll just let it go.

496

: 00:30:59

Like, is that, is that not that

every lyric has to have a, like a

497

: 00:31:03

literal kind of tie back, but is

that kind of the, the, the message

498

: 00:31:08

that we're kind of talking about?

499

: 00:31:10

Kyle Miller: Yeah, I think it falls into

that for sure that that song Uncertainty

500

: 00:31:15

has like an umbrella in my in gretta and

i's life And that certainly fall felt

501

: 00:31:20

falls underneath it and that that line

specifically specific to spirituality.

502

: 00:31:27

Um, yeah, I think there was

growing up in that world.

503

: 00:31:34

There was such a fear.

504

: 00:31:35

If I could add anything to what

this conversation, I think there was

505

: 00:31:38

such a fear of the other and fear.

506

: 00:31:40

Um, around, like, being outside of

the, the bubble and of Christianity.

507

: 00:31:50

Um, and, and now feeling like I'm on

the outside of that, it just feels like,

508

: 00:31:55

it's a, to me, everything in my life is,

I just feel so much, it feels so much

509

: 00:32:01

bigger than what words can describe.

510

: 00:32:04

describe.

511

: 00:32:05

in this way.

512

: 00:32:06

And so, yeah.

513

: 00:32:08

Um, the word, the word Christianity and

Christian feels like it's just, it feels

514

: 00:32:14

too small for me to encompass all things.

515

: 00:32:16

But yeah.

516

: 00:32:17

Anyways,

517

: 00:32:17

Jason English (Host): That's

518

: 00:32:18

Kyle Miller: side tangent, that that

song Uncertainty, it is, it's a song

519

: 00:32:23

about even relationships and, um, and

Gretta and I's relationship and how

520

: 00:32:30

True, true Love has to choose each other.

521

: 00:32:33

It can't be.

522

: 00:32:35

I can't, I cannot hold it.

523

: 00:32:37

So a big part of that song was

about a big part of the record.

524

: 00:32:42

Joy Alchemy was about how do

you, how do you detach from the

525

: 00:32:46

person that you're so crazy about?

526

: 00:32:49

Um, in a way that's not, um, being,

indifferent, but in a way that's like

527

: 00:32:57

recognizing them as like a beautiful song

that passes us, passes through us or a

528

: 00:33:02

beautiful sunset that we get to observe.

529

: 00:33:05

And so Uncertainty was about

trying to wrap my head around.

530

: 00:33:11

That aspect of our relationship

and choosing one another and

531

: 00:33:16

choice being an actual choice.

532

: 00:33:18

So, that was the other side of it,

533

: 00:33:20

Jason English (Host): And

Gretta, like back to your point.

534

: 00:33:22

So when I was in college, again, in

my, uh, I'll call it my conservative

535

: 00:33:28

Christian Bible belt era, for lack of

a better term, I wrote, I submitted,

536

: 00:33:33

uh, I was a, I was a journalist,

uh, and I was a journalism major.

537

: 00:33:37

And I started to like write a lot

and I submitted an article to a

538

: 00:33:40

Christian magazine for publication.

539

: 00:33:42

And the title of it was,

Exclusively inclusive.

540

: 00:33:47

And it was the idea about like Jesus

is exclusively, you know, again, if

541

: 00:33:55

you're a Christian, the son of God,

you know, et cetera, et cetera, et

542

: 00:33:57

cetera, but it's exclusive, he's, he's

exclusively inclusive of everybody, right?

543

: 00:34:03

The poor, the homeless refugees,

you know, all those things.

544

: 00:34:07

And I think, um, I love, I love

how you said it, Gretta, because.

545

: 00:34:11

whatever you call it, if

that's Christianity, great.

546

: 00:34:15

Like I'm all in.

547

: 00:34:16

Um, and I think, or whatever it is.

548

: 00:34:20

Um, but that inclusiveness I think

is really important, especially

549

: 00:34:22

like in, you know, in today's world.

550

: 00:34:24

And it's, it's a shame that like,

you know, some people have sort

551

: 00:34:26

of thrown shade on that concept

for lack of a better term.

552

: 00:34:29

Right.

553

: 00:34:31

Gretta Miller: Yeah.

554

: 00:34:31

I know.

555

: 00:34:31

I think that it's a confusing thing

because I think people, when you're fed

556

: 00:34:38

bad theology that, um, that says that

you have to believe a certain thing.

557

: 00:34:45

Or you're going to burn forever in hell.

558

: 00:34:48

Like then it feels like love to, to tell

someone, Hey, you can't be this way.

559

: 00:34:54

Or you can't live like this

because you're trying to save

560

: 00:34:57

them from burning forever in hell.

561

: 00:34:59

Right.

562

: 00:35:00

But, but when you like deconstruct

that and you're like, Oh, What if

563

: 00:35:04

a loving God actually wouldn't burn

their children in hell forever?

564

: 00:35:11

Then, like, maybe there's freedom

because, like, maybe hell's not

565

: 00:35:14

a thing in that type of context.

566

: 00:35:16

Maybe we can bring hell on earth now when

we choose to live in violence and hate.

567

: 00:35:20

But, like, when we can

remove that, like, fear.

568

: 00:35:24

Living in fear of the other and fear of,

like, this Morbid, wretched afterlife,

569

: 00:35:32

like, makes us act in such a way that's

not fully human, I don't think, and so,

570

: 00:35:38

yeah, I, I, I think that when we can

be free of that, then, When we approach

571

: 00:35:43

the other, or someone who's different

than us, or thinks differently than

572

: 00:35:46

us, we don't have to save them, we

don't have to push our beliefs on them.

573

: 00:35:50

We can say, oh, like,

tell me what you think.

574

: 00:35:53

Who are you?

575

: 00:35:53

What do you believe?

576

: 00:35:54

I want to learn from you, because

you hold something different, and

577

: 00:35:57

that's exciting, and that's not scary.

578

: 00:36:00

We can be curious, and we can be

kind, and, so, blah blah blah.

579

: 00:36:05

Lots of,

580

: 00:36:05

Jason English (Host): No, the,

yeah, the, the curious aspect,

581

: 00:36:08

like I'm all about curiosity.

582

: 00:36:09

Right.

583

: 00:36:10

Um, and I love your song curious

woman from the, from the Christian,

584

: 00:36:13

uh, Christmas album, but like

curious curiosity is so under

585

: 00:36:17

underestimated these days.

586

: 00:36:18

And I think, um, again, that

my spiritual upbringing, that

587

: 00:36:21

there wasn't a lot of that, you

know, um, but you know, whatever.

588

: 00:36:24

And I love Kyle, your point.

589

: 00:36:27

Cause I think there's the time

when I was jaded and I was, you

590

: 00:36:30

know, pissed and and everything.

591

: 00:36:32

And Again, judging, you know, and I love

the fact that you've kind of come full

592

: 00:36:37

circle and sort of are gentle and sort

of more, more sympathetic, you know,

593

: 00:36:41

I think that's, that's really cool.

594

: 00:36:43

And I think your music, I

think your music completely

595

: 00:36:45

reflects that, which is awesome.

596

: 00:36:48

Kyle Miller: Yeah, yeah, bitterness

is a tough ground to build on.

597

: 00:36:53

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

598

: 00:36:54

Kyle Miller: So,

599

: 00:36:55

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

600

: 00:36:55

And that's

601

: 00:36:55

Kyle Miller: um, it's a hard place.

602

: 00:36:56

It's a hard place to stay, but for me it

was, um, yeah, I like what you said there.

603

: 00:37:03

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

604

: 00:37:04

Well, no, thank you.

605

: 00:37:04

Um, all right.

606

: 00:37:05

So I guess back to the, sorry, back.

607

: 00:37:07

Yeah.

608

: 00:37:07

That was, that was deep by

the way for, for Monday night.

609

: 00:37:11

Kyle Miller: Yeah,

610

: 00:37:12

Jason English (Host): it was cool.

611

: 00:37:12

Kyle Miller: it's great.

612

: 00:37:13

I

613

: 00:37:14

Jason English (Host): love it.

614

: 00:37:15

Yeah.

615

: 00:37:15

I love it.

616

: 00:37:15

Um, so I guess back to the 10 year album,

I guess, how, how did the two songs

617

: 00:37:20

per album minus the Christmas album?

618

: 00:37:24

Like, how did you come to those decisions?

619

: 00:37:26

Kyle Miller: wish there was a

really concise way to say what

620

: 00:37:29

we did, but it was pretty random.

621

: 00:37:32

Um, we took it record by record.

622

: 00:37:34

Some of the songs, we still do today.

623

: 00:37:37

Like we play the kitchen at

almost every show that we play.

624

: 00:37:42

Um, and there's a few others off of

our early albums that we still enjoy

625

: 00:37:47

playing every, um, once in a while

we'll still play whiskey and wine.

626

: 00:37:51

We didn't do whiskey and wine on,

on this, um, particular album.

627

: 00:37:55

I think maybe if, maybe there was

actually a way that we did look at it.

628

: 00:38:00

I think the way I tried to view it was.

629

: 00:38:03

I looked at the songs and said, like,

is there anything more to say 10

630

: 00:38:09

years later with this piece of art?

631

: 00:38:12

Um, and that was a cool opportunity

because I think all artists probably feel

632

: 00:38:18

they understand that you could write and

write and write and record and record and

633

: 00:38:22

record and mix and mix and mix forever.

634

: 00:38:24

Songs could just keep, like,

evolving and growing and continuing.

635

: 00:38:28

And I think I was thinking, like, if

these songs had done that for 10 years.

636

: 00:38:33

Which ones would be the ones that I

feel like I could add something to.

637

: 00:38:37

In our old, we had for the first

four years of TOW'rs, we had a

638

: 00:38:42

cello player, four or five years.

639

: 00:38:44

And she since has moved on into

doing a bunch of really neat things.

640

: 00:38:49

And, uh, we had her come back and arrange

all the strings for the most recent music.

641

: 00:38:55

So it's been a while since she's played on

our records, and so we thought it'd be fun

642

: 00:38:59

to To do the most recent stuff

with like a player who had played

643

: 00:39:03

with us like a few years ago.

644

: 00:39:05

So

645

: 00:39:06

Jason English (Host): Please tell me,

please tell me in Girl in Calico, you

646

: 00:39:09

keep the riff, little guitar riff.

647

: 00:39:12

Kyle Miller: we keep the riff and we

started out acoustic and then we actually

648

: 00:39:16

have a um, Almost like a counter melody

that happens with it If you can even

649

: 00:39:21

imagine it's like the busiest riff in the

entire world and i've made it even busier

650

: 00:39:28

But I like it though and and

I liked it enough to share it

651

: 00:39:32

Jason English (Host): gateway song.

652

: 00:39:33

I'm sure like a lot of other people,

because I think it has a ton of streams,

653

: 00:39:36

but that was my You know, that's a

great, I mean, streaming, everyone's got

654

: 00:39:39

an opinion on streaming as a listener.

655

: 00:39:41

I love it because I get

introduced to music.

656

: 00:39:43

I would have never ever heard.

657

: 00:39:45

And again, I think that popped up.

658

: 00:39:47

Um, so I got, you know, I got divorced

after 25 year marriage, three years ago

659

: 00:39:53

and a move from Colorado to Atlanta.

660

: 00:39:55

And, uh, one of the first people I met.

661

: 00:39:57

You know, she was like, do you,

how do you listen to your music?

662

: 00:40:00

And I was like, well, I'm Apple music.

663

: 00:40:01

And she's like, no, yeah,

you gotta do Spotify.

664

: 00:40:03

It'll, it'll change your life.

665

: 00:40:05

And kudos to her.

666

: 00:40:07

She was right.

667

: 00:40:08

Cause one of the reasons is I,

I've, you know, I came across girl

668

: 00:40:11

in Calico listening to a random

radio playlist, you know, and it

669

: 00:40:14

came up and it's, it's incredible.

670

: 00:40:16

So I can't wait to hear that.

671

: 00:40:18

That's awesome.

672

: 00:40:18

So one thing I am, uh,

again, curious about is.

673

: 00:40:22

If you can go back to the songwriting

of all these songs, you know, I

674

: 00:40:26

think again, you, you all have

talked about the fact that I'm

675

: 00:40:28

with, I'm with you, Gretta on this.

676

: 00:40:31

Cause I was, I, you know, used to

be a reporter, you know, I, I'm

677

: 00:40:34

like, okay, the sky is blue, the

grass is green, you know, and I feel

678

: 00:40:38

sad, you know, like very literal.

679

: 00:40:40

Um, and then, you know, and then you've

got, you know, Edgar Allen Poe there,

680

: 00:40:44

uh, as your husband, it was like, Mr,

uh, Mr, you know, just beautiful poetry.

681

: 00:40:52

It works like with you guys,

you know, working together.

682

: 00:40:55

Um, but have you, have you learned to

become more poetic Gretta and artistic?

683

: 00:41:00

And have you, um, Kyle, you know,

learned to become more, you know, literal

684

: 00:41:05

have you guys kind of found a way to

come together a little bit or is it

685

: 00:41:08

kind of standing in your swim lanes?

686

: 00:41:11

Kyle Miller: Oh man.

687

: 00:41:12

I, I feel like more than ever we've

met each other in the middle with our

688

: 00:41:15

songwriting styles and yeah, we're at

a point now where, um, we can write

689

: 00:41:22

and finish a song in a day together.

690

: 00:41:24

'cause where it used to take

months of fighting and, um.

691

: 00:41:31

Like, seven different versions,

and yeah, I think, I, I really

692

: 00:41:35

appreciate the way that Gretta can,

um, observe something and say, this

693

: 00:41:41

is enough to just say you observe it.

694

: 00:41:44

And you don't have to, like,

make it so prosy, um, to the

695

: 00:41:49

point where no one will get it.

696

: 00:41:50

Like, you're not, you're gonna People are

going to miss what you're talking about.

697

: 00:41:54

And then there's a balance in that too,

because also, I think the gift of poetry

698

: 00:41:59

is that it shows us what we have seen

a million times through a new lens.

699

: 00:42:04

And that's why I keep reading

poetry, even about, like, the divine.

700

: 00:42:09

To me, to read a Hafiz poem about

God, or to read Walt Whitman, um,

701

: 00:42:17

It's like I get this new lens because

the language is not what I'm used to.

702

: 00:42:22

So I think we meet each

other in the middle.

703

: 00:42:24

Oftentimes what we do is we kind of err

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