In this episode, our host Joseph Grech is joined by Patrick Mullarkey, an experienced learning and leadership professional who works in startups and scale-ups within the tech sector. Patrick shares his insights into coaching practice and the way that it supports leadership practices and organizational development. 

On this episode they:

• Explore coaching misconceptions, including the belief that anyone can coach and the role of learning professionals in coaching
• Delve into the concept of conscious incompetence in coaching and its implications
• Explore challenges in democratizing coaching within organizations and the role of external coaches
• Discuss the importance of ethical practice and integration of coaching principles

Hello everyone and welcome to our latest episode of Coaching In Focus.

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I am joined today by the

wonderful Patrick Malarkey.

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Patrick, how are you doing today?

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Patrick: I'm great.

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I'm good.

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It's been a good week.

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Life is good.

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I'm talking to you which

makes life even better.

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And my week all the brighter.

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So yeah, how are you?

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You good?

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Joseph: I'm here.

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I'm doing very well.

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And thanks for being here today.

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Patrick is a learning and

leadership professional.

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He works across a number of

different sectors and most recently

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in startups and scale ups in tech.

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As a learning professional, Patrick

and I have worked together for quite

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a few years actually and Patrick

also has an interest in coaching and

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mentoring, particularly how these

support leadership practices, leadership

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development across organizations.

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So I thought it would be great for us to

have a conversation in relation to this.

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So Patrick, thank you for spending

a bit of time with me today.

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I really appreciate it.

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Maybe tell us a little bit about

yourself, your work, what are some type

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of L& D and coaching stuff that you do?

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Patrick: I like to view myself as

being like consciously incompetent to

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a certain degree of coaching and we

might come on to this a little bit.

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I'm a learning professional by trade.

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10 years working on learning

development in various roles, managerial

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consultancies, public sector and so on.

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But most recently, found a

home in tech essentially.

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And I love the sector and the kind of,

the people and the teams you get to work

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with, and it's a very dynamic environment.

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How and where kind of coaching

comes into some of this?

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I think there's lots of nuance in

coaching, but there's also a lot of

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misunderstanding sometimes around it.

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And I think sometimes organizations and

learning teams, we suffer from like,

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there's a lack of barriers to entry.

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in parts of coaching, which I think

sometimes skews the views of what a

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good or great coach can look like.

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For me, I feel a confident say, you know,

about my expertise and ability around

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being a learning leadership management

professional, whatever label you use.

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But I've got like a respect and reverence

in terms of what good coaching looks like.

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The notion around What makes a great

coach, what effective coaching looks like,

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also how that scales in organizations,

because it doesn't necessarily always

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does, which is tricky, can be quite

drastically different to the realities

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of what people say or how people

present themselves as a exec, life

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coach, however you want to describe it.

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Um, I do think that's

changing, fortunately.

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I feel like the last, uh, It's been

refined and people have been more

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deliberate about it, but I believe

there's massive, massive value to

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how aware you apply your skills, um,

and using the coach as a resource

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and support through that journey.

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Joseph: Oh, thank you,

Patrick, for sharing that.

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So much richness, I feel, and what

you said, and I found myself like

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writing things down because I want

to ask you questions about it.

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Um, and I can echo that sentiment

having worked in L& D and how I got into

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coaching in a way I found myself being.

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I'm not saying he pushed, I wanted

to do it, but it feels like it's

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a natural progression for NLD

professionals to move from Working

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with groups to working individually.

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And sometimes there isn't that

development, that training, that

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focus on how we use coaching

skills differently from training.

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We kind of go, well, you train

big groups, train in quotes.

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One person.

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Yeah.

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Patrick: Yeah.

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Joseph: You mentioned that word conscious

incompetence in relation to coaching.

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Uh, let's unpick that a bit.

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Patrick: Yeah, yeah.

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So I won't bore people if you're

listening to this part You've

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probably got a sense of that cycle

of like consciously incompetence.

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I'm gonna get the order wrong So

I'm not gonna try and repeat it.

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Put it in the show notes.

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Yeah, the classic put

it in the show notes.

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What, how, why do I describe myself as

falling into that bracket is that I've

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got a notion around kind of certain

coaching models, uh, in conversations

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and techniques, but in terms of

formalized deliberate practice for

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myself as a coach or mentor, it's been

quite piecemeal and not deliberate.

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As strategic as say, I think of some

of the individuals you've had on this

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podcast previously and people who are

full time coaches who have been accredited

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via programs that you run or elsewhere.

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They've got a very deliberate set

of toolkits and frameworks they

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can refer back on, but also that

sense of deliberate practice.

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And there's something here, and

this is where it gets a bit gray,

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I think, and this is where the

barriers to entry suddenly lower.

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There's something around temperament.

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There's something around application

of skills that are akin to

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counselors as well that you bring in.

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And then suddenly you bring certain

coaches start bringing techniques around.

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So for example, cognitive behavior

therapy and stuff like that just to

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help challenge limiting beliefs and

all of that stuff I find fascinating.

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But I am, I feel as though across

the board, there's very levels of

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competence, but I'd bucket it as

like, I would not feel as though I'm

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an expert, which is partly why I say

to my stakeholders when I work with

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them, here's my benefit of value add.

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Here's the areas like, okay.

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You, I'm nailed on succeeding for

you, but here's the gaps as well.

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We might not need these skills or gaps

for our projects or in the organization,

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but let's be really deliberate.

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So we're kind of on the same page.

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And then the flip side is as well,

to your point earlier, and this might

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be a slight tangent is, um, I've seen

it a lot as a natural progression

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for learning professionals who've

gone from these group settings to

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gradually more intimate, refined,

single group experiences as they perhaps

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they've gone up the management chain.

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They become nearer C suite

or senior leadership roles.

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And those can be really fulfilling

and as well, frankly, commercially

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more impactful for your bank balance,

but they are exposing as well.

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And again, that's where the

piece around, I suppose.

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You've got to treat access

to those opportunities as a

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consequence, not a reward.

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So it's a consequence of your

behaviors, your, uh, deliberate

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practice and stuff you're doing.

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Not just the reward for tenure

or service sometimes or framing

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yourself as some sort of I hesitate

to use the phrase life coach.

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I'm not trying to damn any One

in that element of the coaching

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industry, but presenting yourself

as, as a self declared coach.

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Yeah.

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I think it'd be tricky.

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Joseph: That's the trick of it, isn't it?

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Whether you're a life coach or executive

coach or business coaches of a aspect.

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It's how, because the

industry is unregulated.

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So to a degree, anyone can

call themselves a coach.

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If we think from an L& D point of view,

like the CIPD has got quite a strong

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hold in terms of a qualification pathway.

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Yeah, we do have that from coaching,

like the ICF and other awarding bodies.

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But there's a lot of differences.

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Like if you do an ILM program in

coaching, it is very organizational based.

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It's very much so transactional.

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So you might probably not

go into cognitive behavioral

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work or limiting beliefs.

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But if you're doing an

ICF one, which is broader.

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But there isn't this unified kind of

standard that L& D professionals or anyone

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can just pick up on and get trained on.

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There's a lot of different

training programs, lots of ways

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how you can become a coach.

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Patrick: Yeah, and it's partly as

well, and that's before, it's funny,

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that's what I thought you were saying

then, that's before you even put like

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regional variants in, like of like say,

established providers or bodies in the U.

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S.

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versus EMEA and so on and so forth.

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And then there's even like the

cultural rapport pieces that layer

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underneath around like, you know,

how people interact and around

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communication and culture and so on.

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But again, that's why as well,

I think it's really valuable

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for like a learning function.

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If you have a learning professional who's

moving in that direction and goes down one

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of the paths you've outlined, fantastic,

like they're refining their craft towards

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an outcome or goal of being perhaps a full

time coach or that being a key feature

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of their offer as an employee, but this

strength and power and saying, actually,

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like, you know, I, I find those areas

fascinating, but I'm not in this point in

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the career where I'm about to, you know,

Narrow in and do a specific qualification.

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I might be in the next 18 months

full depreciation to anyone who sees

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my LinkedIn in the next two years.

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You're always welcome to join

one of our Yeah, I knew that.

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A warm lead for you Joseph.

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Joseph: You'll be very welcome.

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Patrick: Joseph will also

include his mate's rates

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discount in the show notes too.

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Yeah.

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Um, but again, I don't think

there's frictional tension.

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In between, if I was to say the two camps

of learning and coaching professionals

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per se, but I have seen certain

stakeholders in the learning camp who

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not, it's threatened the right word.

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I don't know, but like slight cynicism

around like, Oh, what does that coach do?

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Is it, isn't it just the grow model?

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Is that it?

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Is that all they got?

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And it could be, but actually more

often than not, there's a lot more

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to it that they actually bring

to the, to the table challenge.

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I think in organizations that are.

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Changing rapidly or growing fast, like,

you know, that's the story of my previous

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three or four years is, um, trying to

get coaching practices that scale is

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very, very difficult because just the

cost involved and in the quality control.

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And I think there's some

organizations and some companies

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who are doing some brilliant stuff.

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Uh, using technology to

address that challenge.

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And I think it's, it will not become

as big a challenge as it currently

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feels today, but I can see as well,

like the notion of democratizing

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coaching can be tricky 'cause giving

it to the c-suite, senior leaders,

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you'll see ime you can, you can, the

impacts can resonate really clearly.

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And then if you try and spread that

out over hundreds of people, that's

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trickier to manage, but also deliver on.

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Did

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Joseph: you know that at Become, we offer

a number of different coach training

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programs to people just like you.

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If you're new to coaching, there is a

level one diploma in integrative coaching.

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If you've been coaching for a while,

or perhaps you're already an ACC coach,

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then we have the advanced diploma in

integrative coaching, which leads all

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the way to the PCC credential by the ICF.

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We also have a number of CPD

programs and certificates,

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including mentoring and supervision.

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To find out more, go to tubicam.

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org or just check the show notes.

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There's an analogy that

came to mind actually.

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It's like where you have a really

good Sales practitioner and then

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they get promoted to a sales manager,

but actually they don't understand

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this, that like they, that they've

not been trained as a manager.

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And I think sometimes in L& D, we're

a really good trainer facilitator.

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We, we then start doing coaching, but

we don't get trained into coaching and

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there's different, you know, there's the

expectation that we can, we can do both.

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The other aspect is around

democratizing coaching.

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And.

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That is a challenge because in a

lot of organization coaching is

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offered at like at exec levels.

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What I'm finding is there's a lot

more kind of train the trainer

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approaches where L& D is coming in and

let's say training line managers on.

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I do generally believe that not

everyone It needs to be a coach.

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I mean, kind of like, I do think everyone

would benefit with coaching skills, but

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just, uh, like knowing the growth model is

better than not knowing anything, knowing

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some CBT kind of type discussions that

you could have with your team members

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is better than not knowing anything.

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So a little bit, I feel

like goes a long way.

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Um, and an L and D I'm

finding that we're doing.

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We're doing some of that.

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Like a lot of NLP practitioners are

becoming coaches so that they then

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train their own managers on how to

have coaching conversations rather

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than just an hour coaching session.

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I mean, what do you think?

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Are you seeing this more in practice?

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Patrick: Yeah.

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And part of it is skills building

for the individual concerned.

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Like that's definitely a motivator, but

there is a perception around if, you

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know, that train the trainer approach.

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I'm not necessarily It has its moments

depending on the topic or task.

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I always say to people though, that can

work, but let's be conscious around who's

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your trainer for because you're training

out their preferences and biases as well.

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If we're comfortable, whatever

they're bringing to the table.

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And I, and when I say that, I

include myself in that is like, you

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know, I've got certain preferences

and work style facilitation,

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however you want to label it.

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Are we happy to duplicate those?

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and amplify those behaviors.

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If so, great.

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But if not, or we have a risk

or concern we need to manage,

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let's have that conversation.

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And this kind of feeds into more

broadly, like, have you done an effective

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analysis or discovery piece at the start?

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I think as well, frankly, that there's,

I hesitate to say this, but like, I

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think sometimes we, I say we, learning

industry, learning professionals,

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learning leaders, we have to deal with

our stakeholders perception, their own

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experience of education and learning.

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So, for example, I'm going to

make wild generalizations now just

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for the benefit of this, but just

stay with me, Lister and Joseph.

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C suite individuals have got to their

point in time in their career via certain

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experiences, projects, and outcomes.

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Their point of reference,

therefore, for success, i.

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e.

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how do we help people get to my level,

is based on their own lived experience.

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So that might be a trainer trainer

approach, but it's not necessarily

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the most effective in terms of

dealing or rolling out behaviours.

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And then that's where it gets

interesting to say, well look, and go

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back to my preferences and bias piece.

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Would we benefit from using a third party

or a supplier to scale this up and out?

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I often think organizations are quite

receptive to a conversation around not

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an ongoing engagement like people joke

about like a supplier being like a

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barnacle on the side of a ship you just

can't get it off once it's on in but

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taking like a phased approach and being

honest with suppliers say look first

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three to six months We're going to be

leveraging so many of your people to

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roll this out during our embed phase.

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But gradually a metric for success

is growing our own and embedding the

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behaviors that we want to mirror.

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If the people you're getting in the

supplies are good, effective at what

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they do, I don't think it's, I think

it might be overambitious to try and

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match their expertise, but try and

get like 78 percent of the way, and

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then the 20 percent might be nuanced,

that's organizational specific.

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Sorry, it was a bit of a tangent.

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I'm not sure I've answered your question.

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Joseph: I'm also getting the feeling

around, you know, Some of the advantages

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of using, let's say, external coaches

for the coaching itself, not just

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about building the programs and the

strength trainer approach, but also

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this idea that that's why a lot of

organizations still kind of really

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rely on external coaches because of

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Patrick: that.

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Yeah.

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And they play the role

of a neutral third party.

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I think my most prior to where

I am now, my second to last

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organization, there was like.

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elements of like a coaching

program that was rolled out.

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I can think of three or four individuals

who continued the engagement with

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that coach privately, not like on an

ongoing yearly basis year on year, but

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like for a specific period, because

what they found was the program that

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brought them together as a coach,

coachee had a specific aim or outcome.

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As the coaching relationship developed,

they found really, you know, The problem

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outcome, the organization one, was

actually not what the coachee needed

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help with, and that was kind of separate.

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But they wanted to address

both, so they're exploring both.

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They couldn't have done that, say, in the

same way or same effectiveness of say, me

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as a fellow peer employee was the coach.

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They'd get some value, but they

perhaps wouldn't have gone to as

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vulnerable, as sensitive in areas.

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That they did in the end, some of

those individuals, I won't breach any

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confidence for going in detail about it.

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And again, going back to your point

around that we talked about earlier on

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quality, I would be able to get them

so far in terms of that, the depth and

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value of that coaching interaction.

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But someone who has that wealth of

experience qualifications was able to go

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really deep and in a way that was, um, I

don't know if safeguarding is the right

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way to kind of bring it up here, but.

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You, you can uncover some really deep

stuff that's sensitive linked to someone's

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identity and personality not just their

professionalism and their skill set But

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there could be anchors you're raising

from the ground that have created limiting

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beliefs or behaviors that have held them

back for decades That's again, that's

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where you need someone who's not just,

you know, effective at, you know, looking

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like you Um, signals and signs around

safeguarding or challenging conversations,

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but it knows how to navigate those.

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And, and again, quality of

coaches bringing out some of

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those counseling skills as well.

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That's where you see it shine through.

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Don't get me wrong.

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Sometimes it's just not feasible.

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And also it's not the top

priority to, to use coach

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suppliers in your in house space.

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But, um, look at it this way.

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If, um, this is too simple, but I had

a friend who used to talk about it

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in this context, if I break my arm.

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Do I go to a GP to then get triaged

and referred, or do I go to hospital

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to speak to the arm specialist?

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If I've got a choice, I'm going to the

hospital to speak to the arm specialist,

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same way if I've got like a coaching

engagement who someone's gonna work

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through a challenge, would I rather do

that or use the learning professional who

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might have mixed ability in that space?

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Joseph: What's really interesting

in what you're saying is though your

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awareness of ethical practice Right.

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And I feel that's quite unique because

sometimes when I'm speaking to coaches who

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might not be accredited or might not be,

uh, have been fully trained, that's one

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thing that I noticed there isn't as much.

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So it's really nice to see

that in you, this idea around

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safeguarding and ethical practice.

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And you know, the example that you said

around not being to enter into dialogue

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around some sensitive information,

that's also the coach's awareness.

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of their own boundaries, uh,

in the coaching relationship.

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So there is also that professionalism

and that increased self awareness.

336

Do you see what I mean by that?

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Patrick: Yeah, absolutely.

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And it's interesting when, um, I hate

the phrase, but people recognize it.

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Like the beauty parade you go

through sometimes with suppliers

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and they're presenting like their

model and products and how it fits.

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I always do it whether it's

a learning or coaching thing.

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I'll say looking forward to the meeting.

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By the way, here's a list of FAQs.

344

Can you clarify what?

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mechanisms or tools you have in

place for some of these questions.

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And there'll always be something

around what do you do when you have

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a safeguarding risk or concern?

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How do you manage that in a way that,

uh, doesn't compromise integrity and

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the confidentiality of the relationship?

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How or whenever have you dealt

with instances in the past?

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And it's always interesting.

352

I've raised that in sales calls

sometimes with the sellers, the sales

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team for the coach and provider.

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And when you throw that out there, that's

quite telling because the amount of

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them that say, Hey, I've got no clue.

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What do you mean by that?

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I don't quite understand.

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Versus the sales teams who say,

we've got a process for that.

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I don't have its hand.

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I can email it straight after

this call and I can get a

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coach to talk you through it.

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It's really important because

the thing is, is, you know, I'm

363

going to butcher this phrase.

364

You can correct it.

365

You'll probably notice better than I was

like, you're not coaching the problem.

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You're coaching the

person in front of you.

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You're dealing with all their You know,

sometimes there's not just a stakeholder

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relationships in a professional

life, but their personal life too.

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And their own, um, I use that word

again, their sense of identity, their

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persona and where they see themselves.

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So that like, again, this is all coming

back around to that point of like, you

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know, patriarchy can do apply coaching

principles and grow model behaviors,

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whatever it might be a framework.

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But Dealing with some of these really,

really like detailed facets of an

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individual requires like, you know, a

certain level of professionalism that

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you should not accept anything less.

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Joseph: That element of coaching is

not just a transactional activity

378

where you are saying, you know,

typically like grow, I find is

379

used in a very transactional way.

380

Like, what's your problem?

381

Whereabouts are you with it now?

382

What can you do about it?

383

Let's move on.

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Patrick: The end user, the

coachee, is very aware of that.

385

Like the proliferation of the model.

386

And again, this isn't a

critique of the model.

387

It's just, it's out there everywhere.

388

And I seen it the flip side,

like, um, it's like tangent.

389

There's been like two or three

times I've used counselling services

390

at various points in my lives.

391

I remember the second time I could

laugh about it now, but the way the

392

counsellor managed the conversation, I

was like, we're doing a grow model here.

393

Hang on.

394

What?

395

Like, And we're literally,

we're navigating through this

396

so we don't overrun on time.

397

And I even got a fact sheet at the

end, like this little crib sheet.

398

I was like, hang on, what is this?

399

And I was like, it was a great

example, like the same principle

400

of like, um, I think sometimes your

intrinsic motivation will come out

401

quite starkly in your behavior.

402

Again, like the grow model is fantastic.

403

We can, by the way, if anyone's listened

to this, we're not bashing the grow model.

404

It's just kind of, it's just so

familiar and normally present.

405

Joseph: A lot of our listeners though,

just, and this is not, this sometimes

406

come up, that's one thing that we actually

talk about quite a lot on the Diploma

407

that The whole reason why I created the

Diploma is because in my experience, I was

408

putting the model in front of the person.

409

I learned Grow when I was

just using Grow all the time.

410

Then I learned CBT stuff and I

was using those all the time.

411

And I found it was

really highly unethical.

412

So, irrelevant of any model

that we're choosing, if we're

413

stamping out that model onto the

individual, It doesn't feel right.

414

And the integrative diploma focuses on

how do we integrate coaching principles?

415

How do we integrate your own values?

416

How do we integrate all of these

different models are psychologically

417

evidence based in a way that

supports the client and not just.

418

You and the session to run the session.

419

Patrick: Yeah, and that's interesting

then because suddenly you're talking about

420

moving away from a more transactional

moment, which can have value to

421

something that's sustainable beyond

the conversation, because if you're

422

exploring around my values, my drivers,

my principles of behavior as well.

423

You feed it into like standards

of performance and professionalism

424

and personal, not standards of

personality, that isn't a thing.

425

Um, but suddenly that those are

much broader, I suppose, um,

426

bigger things to, to adapt and

change and they're sustainable.

427

Beyond the conversation as well.

428

That's quite interesting.

429

Joseph: Yeah.

430

Yeah, very much so.

431

Um, what do you feel, uh, some, perhaps

we already talking about some of

432

them, but what could be some common

misconceptions that L& D professionals,

433

you know, may have about coaching?

434

Patrick: There's a contradiction to what

I'm going to say, but I'll share it.

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One is that anyone can do it or on the

flip side, learning professionals a

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better place to do it than say, L& D.

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another part of the

organization or, or, or a team.

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That second part, let me just

speak on that for a moment.

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This is my own bias coming out.

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So I worked at a management

consultancy years ago and, um, I had

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a colleague in the marketing team.

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I got on really well with her.

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We didn't work that close together, but

always grabbed a coffee now and again.

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And then she mentioned, she said,

Oh, We were talking about some of

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the projects I was working on and

I said something about coaching or

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workshop delivery, something like that.

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She said, Oh, I'm doing

my coaching qualification.

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And I remember my reaction.

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It was so ignorant.

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I was like, you, you're a market,

what are you talking about?

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And, um, again, a sign of how immature

and junior I was at that point.

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And she was like, yeah, cause like, you

know, I like, I want to apply some of

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this to like, just my own sideline side

hustle, but also my day to day work.

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And it really brought to life to me that

conversation that just, we used to laugh

455

about it since, but it's like, I think

there's a misconception sometimes around,

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we are sometimes operating at a higher.

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standard of, I'll use that word

again, competency, or we're starting

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with a higher floor than some of our

peers in other functions or areas.

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Some of the best coaches or application

of coaching skills I've seen have

460

been in from quite technical business

areas with leaders who just get the

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notion of actually being of service

to the person in front of them and

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how that informs their behavior.

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Then applying good skills from that.

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But I think that's, that's like,

it's more of an, I'd say as well,

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like I, again, my preferences,

my biases are coming out here.

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So anyone listening, don't

shout too much if you disagree.

467

I think that like learning has that,

learning functions have that more broadly

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around So, for example, facilitation, I've

seen it with certain learning functions,

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try and train, say, presentation skills

that are just an easy one to talk about.

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Try and train a population up on

that skill set when actually some

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of them are more capable than the

people facilitating and running the

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learning or education in that space.

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So, I think the notion that somehow

we're starting with a head start because

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of our day job, um, is a misconception.

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Being curious and intellectually curious.

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around your own development

and the person in front of you

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will bridge many of those gaps.

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Joseph: It's the idea that the

emotional maturity in a way is more

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important, isn't it, than the role.

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And we do get that.

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We have a lot of marketeers through the

program, a lot of lawyers, um, teachers,

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all sorts of different professions.

483

And people will say, I just want to

do it for myself because I want to

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communicate better with other people.

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I want to understand myself better.

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Patrick: If anyone I know has gone

through some sort of program, they've

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come out the other side saying, Their

expectation was one thing, but the

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outcome was the self awareness that

they didn't, they hoped for or did

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not expect is leveled up so much more.

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And that's powerful.

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And then once you're informed of

that stuff, you can't go back.

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You can only get forward.

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So that's good stuff.

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Joseph: We're getting pretty close

towards the end of this podcast.

495

Patrick.

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And it's been wonderful talking to you

about, you know, some of these applied

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coaching principles, like in practice.

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Um, so thank you for sharing,

you know, some of your knowledge.

499

Like I appreciate it.

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I know it's going to be something

that our viewers will also

501

really enjoy listening to.

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Patrick: Nice.

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No, it's been great to talk about it.

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And you and I know we could talk

about for hours about this and

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it's all just to acknowledge you.

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As someone, a massive help in my career

as, as like a coach, a manager, a leader.

507

And, um, it's so great just to see what

you're doing now with the pod and the

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business and beyond and stuff like this.

509

We need more coaches like yourself, so.

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Oh, thanks Patrick.

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And

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Joseph: to yourself, you know, um, Stop

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Patrick: it.

514

Stop

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Joseph: it.

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Patrick: Everyone's been sick,

cringing, listening to us now.

517

Joseph: No, they're

not, they're not at all.

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But thank you once again,

Patrick, and lovely to see you.

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Patrick: Cool.

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Take care.