We are back for another great interview on our podcast on how to unlock your world of creativity. Our guest today joins us on our around-the-world journey where we talk to creative practitioners about how they get inspired and how they organize ideas. And most of all, how they gain the confidence and the connections to launch their work out into the world. Our guest Michaell Magrutsche is an Austrian/Californian multimedia artist (painting, writing, music, film) and art adviser. Who recognizes many similarities that showed up in each art form. His passion is to discover patterns that reveal hidden functions in art. He is known to specialize in using his findings to elevate the exposure of art and foster clearer communication between all involved in the Arts. 

Today we have a conversation about the starving artist, a topic that is well illuminated in his last book, The Smart of Art: A New Art Consciousness To Awaken Our Enthusiasm For Art. A book he wrote because of the insane phenomenon that 95% of all artists worldwide exist around the poverty line. We talk about reclaiming artists’ value and their passion and how a lot of creatives undervalue themselves and their work as well.

In our conversation, we discover that artists have never defined their value. When you go to other professionals, they can tell you exactly why you're paying $3,000 for their work but an artist has no idea how to value his masterpiece. Because the value of art is ultimately mostly assessed through the foreign system of capitalism and economy where other values are the rule. There is little incentive for the economy to make art a tangible system.

The market decides the value of an art piece when an artist creates a piece of art. In our talk, we realize that we know the art market, but we don't know art itself. As art is perceived today, it can no longer reveal its properties and true values because its ultimate evaluation is always tied to success, money, and fame. This is a huge misunderstanding since the art itself is where the value is. That's the purity of creativity is in art

His top tips to artists so that they are not categorized as starving artists are:

• Artists have to compartmentalize the magical process of creating. Because this is where they grow and get instant feedback on their creations.
• An artist has to disengage when they are done with their creation. Although that is a  hard thing for artists. They can't disengage because the experience of creation was so magical
• They need to learn to detach after being done with the magic of creation. After they have milked the moment and they are now saturated. They can give the painting to the market so that their art can be pieced accordingly.
• If they cannot detach themselves then they need to get an expert, a businessman gallerist, or a manager is usually the best because they are detached. Because your attachment to your creation as an artist blinds and blurs, the sales.

If we knew more about creativity and art, we would know that as a creator one can abide but never submit to the creation of ourselves such as economy or technology. It always and only can lead to self-destruction if we try to submit to a system we created. Nature and humans are the most advanced systems on this planet.

Therefore, AI is ultimately nothing more than human frailty on steroids because the data stems from human imperfection. And therefore what the observation of art does is it pushes you into humanity and that's magic.

In conclusion, agree that  we shouldn't be able to name art & poverty in the same breath.Michaell educates us that art is the language of wisdom and that we should get in touch with our wisdom. He invites artists to create art without bothering about the market. And he reminds them to milk the process because there is not a spiritual discipline stronger than the one experienced during the creation of art. Which is a way to keep in touch with your wisdom. That's why he calls art the language of wisdom. Lastly he urges artists to have this systems approach to have the business side and the valuation side of their work and to keep their egos a little bit more neutral so that they don't undervalue their work.

More on all Michaell’s work: Michaellm.com

Michaell Magrutsche

Michaell's Website

I am a multimedia artist, educator, author of 5 art-related books, and creator of the bi-weekly podcast THE SMART OF ART - The Power of Art and Creativity. I am a passionate creativity/art researcher that looks for art/creativity's true values for humans outside of any system. I am raising the awareness of our human potential, contrarily to man-made systems like technology and economy. I point to our untapped human abilities. Especially our truth compass and super-powers of humans’ inherent tools of creativity and healthy discourse. I try to plant seeds of awareness without selling something to STOP humanity from pondering problems to create more systems that humans have to deal with. We can heal the world and others by everyone “being the best YOU that you can be for YOURSELF." Humans need to understand non-man-made systems like nature and be the stewards of OUR habitat instead of man-made system like technology. #TheSmartofArt #MichaellArt

Michaell on YouTube

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaellart/

auto generated transcript

Well, welcome back friends to our podcast, unlocking your world of creativity. And this is the podcast where we talk about reclaiming and re-engaging with our own creativity and our process. But also there is that business side where you say, I'm creating the work, but I need to launch it and get the value out of it, out into the world. And that's the topic with my guest today, Michaell Magrutsche. Michaell, welcome to the program.

Hey Mark. Good to see you.

It's good to see you. Michaell is from Vienna, Austria, born, raised educated now, living and working in Southern California. So he is got a great global perspective. Michaell, you work with a lot of people. And this last book that you wrote, The Smart of Art, talked about reclaiming their value and their passion, the lot of creatives sort of undervalue, and therefore you've recognized it too. The starving artist, image, but what is it about the, our passion for our, creativity that often needs to be reclaimed and rekindled?

So there are two issues here because you talked about the starving artist and also the reclaiming. So both the starving artist is, and this is the symptom of all of the essences that I found in my last book. Artists have never defined their value. When you go to a guy that does whatever bicycles or a plumber or an electrician, they can tell you exactly why you're paying $3,000 for an artist who has no idea. It's, just ego. What the ego says. Somebody has no value for art and says, oh, gimme 50 bucks for that painting. And the other said I want 40 bucks for the same painting, 40,000 bucks for the same painting. And that's the problem. And then that's the source of all problems because we have never defined ourselves. In what we do. In the old days, the artists were guilds, like making beautiful staircases and whatever, but that's, today's creative technicians. NFT junkies or whatever. So, the art itself is where the value is. That's the purity of creativity is in art. So...

Let me capture and underscore something you said about the ego, almost setting the price. Is it because we lack the confidence or is it that we don't really know what our art is worth

Because we don't know, we just wing it. I mean, look at all these success books out there. Look, everybody writes about success, and I can tell you from myself only I sold $11,000 paintings. I, you know, was arts commission of Newport beach, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I had never an idea how I got there and how this happened. I mean, if you really think about it, you get, you assume after the fact that this is what you did. I did social media, I did this and I talked to the customer and then I sold, you don't know that you can sell, you can even tell your wife that you are you wanna give a wedding ring to your wife to your future wife or husband.

You can even figure out a ring for them. Because you go, you go to the jeweler and you say, I know you like Ruby, you would like that ring. Right. And she says, yeah, but that diamond is, or that an emerald is, what I like. And the same with tie, she says, oh, I know you like Navy blue. And then you go Navy blue and you see this yellow tie next to it I say, from my mind, I would buy this. So we can't. And I think in our society because success is so important and to create and to new, new, new, new and always, and there are no cycles. No seasons, you know, in the economy, because money because the principle of economy is very, very limited. It has to get more and more and more bottom line, when they don't make money, they call it never grows. it's completely focused on, making more, faster, and cheaper, and the human doesn't work with that.

Well, the funny thing, and I think about an artist way back, I knew that, was entering some of his first work and galleries and so forth. And he, like you said, Hey, I think it'll be $240. And I thought, why not? 24,000? Why don't you just add a couple of zeros on the back because who would know? I think it's fantastic, but the market, I guess, has to decide

The market decides because this is a big misunderstanding. When an artist creates a piece of art, not like something the market wants, let's say something like behind me, when I create that, I have so much joy creating it. That then once it's a product, it can it's a product. It's like a bicycle, and that is hard to compartmentalize because the art market that we know, we know art market, we don't know art. We are not smart about art outside of systems. That's why I started my podcast. And I wanted to reeducate humanity because then we can value from both sides. Why it's important that we have art in our world and why it needs to be supported. And why do you support it? I know people that spend a million dollars, donating for this event or whatever. And when I talk to these people and I ask them, why did you support art? I said it's great. It's just, you know, it's, it's great people and all this stuff, but really nobody can tell me why it's really important because everybody feels it, you know, the feeling is there because the feeling is not there that give a million dollars to the promise union. Do you know what I mean?

Yes.

And so, in your experience, and now that you've captured it in the new book, I do wanna move into that. How does one shift the brain, you know, we're truly working on the left and the right side now. We are creating art, but now we have to, value it, and sell it. And there is that system that you've been describing. How does one get our arms around that

What we have to compartmentalize is this the magical process of creating, right? That's where you grow. That's where you get the wisdom. That's where you see, oh, I can think something. And it turns out better than I think worse than I think you get always instant feedback. And it's not about the other, because right now you are in the process of creating and then you have to disengage when you're done with it. And that's the hard thing for artists. They can't disengage because the experience was so magical. It's like, you dated a girl and she was so magical. And they said, why is that not? So you need to digest that experience. And then because a lot of artists cannot give away the art because like, they can't price it and they can't give it away because it's always too less for some and always too much for others.

So when, if they can see Ah-huh, once I'm done with the magic creation. Now, I milk that moment as we do now. And then I'm good. I'm saturated. And now I can detach and give the painting to the market. And then an expert and a businessman gallerist are the best, galleries or selling in an auction. Or I have somebody be a manager is usually the best because they are detached. See your attachment to your creation blinds, and blurs, the sales. And you're always insecure. I mean, artists have no problem

I was gonna say almost insecure on both sides of it. It's not as good as I think it is, or somebody else might, or, Hey, this is great. It could be a million-dollar.

Exactly.

So you're really not...

You can't know. Because art and creativity are human and the systems are human creations. So nature and, and humans were not created by us, but the systems were all created by us. And therefore systems are always limited. Because if I freak out right now, you are born with the intelligence and the wisdom to handle me. You turn off the podcast, you yell at me, or whatever, but you are, programmed. Like I am limitless. You're human. You're programmed limitless, you know, from computers. There's no such thing as limitless because humans come up with problems and problems and problems, and we make it better and better and better because we are limitless. Any system is limited and therefore, what the observation of art does is it pushes you in the humanity and that's another magic. See, this is what people need to be aware of. Go to any opening art opening. And you have Republicans, Democrats, any race woman, man, transgender, and everybody's talking. And, you know, the funniest thing is nobody looks at the art.

That's the magic because you surround by purity if it's good art, you know then you are surrounded by that. And then you just feel humane and humans are herd animals, and we like to be with each other.

Yes. Well, and in addition to the podcast in the book, you've taken this idea of teaching to the next level. I mean, you're coaching your counseling many artists, and I've seen some of the YouTubes of their experiences. Yeah. How do they, how can you teach it is the question, how can you transfer this knowledge of taking your creative feelings and putting it into a system to make it, commercially successful?

There is no such thing because this is another delusion that we tell each other, we wing it. We say, okay, I make the best bicycle right now. That is better than any bicycle in the world. And that can work and it cannot work, but we pretend we know it's gonna work. And then we, if it doesn't, we know who to blame because systems always blame. It's the opposite of humans. Humans say, oh, it's my fault. And it isn't even your fault, but you still say, it's my fault. I'm sorry. You know, but systems always look at the war who is blaming and finger-pointing. And the sad thing is on the other side, it's not the system that, I am in it's humans. So it is limitlessness creativity of limitlessness against the creativity of limitlessness in the creation and maintenance of systems against each other.

So humans fight against each other with that limitless creativity, look at the viruses. Viruses and antivirus software is the best example. It's a multibillion-dollar industry. So it's a joke. And we waste our energy. The bottom line. What's really the best is because you could say, okay, if there's a good and a bad, and they fight each other, they get all better. Right. But, the sad thing is we are here. We are heard animals. We are here to enjoy and be in the habitat of nature, and see the beauty of this planet and the beauty of that. Every human is different. I relish meeting new people in zoom is always a new person and friendships happen and not, and it's even if there are no friendships that the experience at the moment is so great. If I never talk to you anymore, I don't want that. But if, if that would happen or if something happens to me in the next minute

That the connection has been made,

The connection has been made.

Well, let's take that to the next chapter. So to speak of our, our conversation, we've talked about rekindling our passion for the art, but also moving into the values. I think, thirdly, Michaell, I'd like to talk about your own work because you've described this uplifting and charging feel of the room. Your work has been described as limital hard edge and reductive pop, and even antidepressant. We could use some of that wall power as it's been called. What, is it about the work that you have developed your own style? You know, these kinds of shapes and colors and things like that, that you put into your artwork. What drives that for you?

I just have a feeling so, so I, I feel like, let's say I feel like pink, like here, or, a future. I feel like that. And I or I see something like a square and a circle, and I see that somewhere, like say you would have a logo on your shirt and my mind goes right away to it and creates it. But I'm dyslexic extremely dyslexic. So my mind goes off on your, on your, on your size, on your shirt. And then I say, and I draw a little bit and then I put it on a, now I can put it on a computer before I was drawing, drawing, drawing till I have the final until I was happy. And then I transferred it onto the canvas today. I primarily do, digital works.

And, if somebody wants that painting, I would make you that painting. okay. So people go on my website, and they look and say, can you make that in this size? It's also much easier because you can say, I have this place like, and I can show your rendering also for which all the artists do. I was one of the first that did renderings for people. So they look at the thing, especially because I wrote a book on art for public spaces because of my arts commissioner, I saw there was a need. And that's how I do it. And, now every artist does, that's the problem is the artists get pushed away from art, from making art, their business first because, and that's the sad thing because we could have much better art than we have now, right now, if people wouldn't worry about how they sell it. And there's an overabundance of art.

Well, and as you said, you can express your creativity in any medium. I've also noticed you have photography, you have music, there, this kind of multimedia expression, and sometimes you bring all those together in a unique combination.

Yeah. But, every artist is that. And I wrote this in my two books, or so ago. All artists. Because I was thinking, why am I only because I'm very me, as you can tell. Right?. So I wasn't worried about the market. And most artists that I know we're worried about the market, how would I look? I grew up in Vienna, you went to the academy of applied arts. My uncle is, was a teacher there. And there were few artists for the many, and now I'm many artists for the, for the few, and it just shifted over, but it was, people looked and said, for example, I was at the tape, this is a great story. I was at the table with the chief of the academy and with very, very elaborate.

And with my uncle who was a master's teacher, and on Sunday, we, we although talked about art and they said, Andy Warhol and Picasso, are no artists because I was a fan. I was young. I was 15 years old. I was a fan of the colors, obviously, and I loved Picasso. And they said the boasting and i and said, how can you say that? You know, made no sense. because a person that makes, and I think Picasso was still alive and it was 30, he did 30,000 paintings. Now he has 38000 you know? And they said nobody can be an artist that can make 38,000 paintings. And anyone that photographs and paints on photos can also not be a thing. I'm just saying it it's changed constantly. That's why you can't worry about systems. You gotta do what feels good to you.

And I wanna invite everybody to create art. It doesn't matter. Don't worry about the market. Milk, the process, what comes to you. And you can't think about all your problems when you are in the moment of creating, there's no spiritual discipline as strong as creating art because you're in the moment. In yoga, I can think about all my problems. I'm not dissing yoga, you know, but when you do art, you focus so much because you don't know, what comes out.

You're in the moment. Well, you prompted another question that I often get from creative people and that's about the space or the place or the city in which you're working. You mentioned the environment of Vienna, Southern California, different vibe. Somebody says, if I wanna do music, I need to go to Nashville. If I want to do wine I need to go to Napa or Bordeaux, the theatre on Broadway does the place, where one is developing creativity. What is your view on that?

Describe you're describing vibrations, right? You, you said there's a vibe. That's

Well, a vibe for sure. And even the environment, I guess, or the ecosystem and the supporters and collaborators that might be there. But I just wonder about it. Especially in a much more virtual and Hey, we can travel. We can go anywhere we want, but does the place matter?

Virtual can never, never will never, ever replicate Napa valley or Southern California or Vienna or the desert. It doesn't matter. It will never be able to give you because what you described, you said the vibe. So that's our sense. That's our unlimited self that's, the soul. The soul recognizes Napa. And a lot of souls on this earth recognize it as Napa. Because if I say make the desert a wine country, I don't get a following. Do you see? So when there's a strong vibration of this, obviously humans are sensitive. I mean, you know, when an animal dies or so it can still be warm and has the fur, but what is that in you that recognized that this is dead? See, and that is what is recognized in Napa. That's what confirms Napa is this. And Vienna is culture and classical and Southern California is surf and, and VW buses, you know?

Yes, exactly. So well, and I guess it goes back to that feeling that Is emitting from the work. And so, so is the vibe, I guess, that feeling that is coming from the place.

Yeah. And often if something comes from a totally different place or from a person, so this is another wonderful thing. When you see a person, you know, a person for a long time and all of a sudden say, you know what, Mark, I'm a, I'm a closet artist. And you look at our painting or his painting, and you blow away. You all of a sudden make all sense in the person. You can recognize that person so much clearer, even if it's your wife and she has never shown you because what you read out of it is not bits. You are reading, soul. You are reading our unlimited self, the unlimitedness you read. And that's what we are all looking for. That's why wisdom.

This is what we talk about right now wisdom. It's not knowledge. Knowledge is temporary. It goes out and in, all the knowledge that science found is already outdated, except Newton's law and gravity. But basically, knowledge is very short. And to be with art, you get in touch with your wisdom. That's why I call art the language of wisdom. And science is the language of knowledge. And, of course, people too. But we, we communicating on totally different levels. The words that we speak sound, we actually connect over our limitless self.

Makes so much sense. Well, Michaell, I have one last question for you, but before we get too far, I wanna make sure that people know how to connect with you, find you and learn more about your work and your programs.

Yeah. It's Michaellm.com. Michaell, with two LLs, m.com. Michaellm.com. And this is my hub. You get my social, you get my, all the stuff there, social media,

It's all the, we'll find, the content, the books, everything links, the links to the videos. It's all there.

What I recommend is going to... I have a 30-second podcast, and this is a podcast of wisdom. And because everything that counts for art always counts for humans. And you just look at that twice a week. It comes out. I think you have 64 episodes right now. And I have 350. So I keep adding to it because I become aware of things and then put them in words. And that alone will help you so much because you're not just listening to something and regurgitating. You're just listening and it makes you think there's a statement and a question. And I say, if it doesn't resonate, just throw it away discarded. But if it does let it come up, what it means for you, we gotta be wiser. More knowledge and more doing and more apps and more technology is not gonna get us anywhere.

That's right. Well, the podcast is quite provocative. So, listeners, I will post a link in the show notes, but this idea that here's a thought on a question, and all of a sudden you're like, wait, was that it? Yeah, that was 30 seconds. So now it's on you to think, and you can think as long as you want.

Because I believe in our connection. I believe that we are interconnected and I believe that humanity can save itself. It doesn't need systems. It doesn't need to hide or be angry at systems because that's the two things, you know, the one that navigates is angry at systems and the other, but in reality, if the humans would talk to each other and now you can't get even anybody on the phone anymore. We could handle things very easily with very few words, or we can go through systems and stay on hold, get the next technician, get the next. Yeah. And our life juice is lost. Why are we here on earth?

As we close Michaell, let's think ahead to the future. And you mentioned public art commissions. I'm really curious about your sense of public art and what the future is. And some of that might be murals on the walls, and those are still going strong. But what else can we think about in our communities to create that feeling outside our homes, outside the walls, not just inside museums and galleries?

I love this question because I was very much for the, we have a sculpture garden in new Newport beach and they wanna do static arts for the longest. And, and I was fighting that and we have now rotating art. I think public art needs to be rotated because like humans rotate and die or come and go. So art is so parallel to humans. So art needs to come and go, then you don't have anybody saying, oh, this is bad art. Or, this is not correct. All the system definition of political correctness and all this stuff, we need to let that go with art. We can be political, correct. All we want, but with art, we have to let it go. Because art needs to be the only space where everything is still allowed and expressed.

And, the system says, it's not right. I mean, look at how women's changed and how we are aesthetics of women need to have this and need to have that a man and whatever we change constantly in systems and the human stuff is the diversity that is a strength. It's not a weakness. The system has made it a weakness because they can handle our limitlessness and they made us racist. They made us gender phobic. And now they wanna do another system PC to fix it. See, it doesn't work for the creative podcast. Because you can't create something to do another thing to help that. And, humans, humans leave to die to come up, systems stay and get stronger all the time. And it's no wonder we feel that Nike is more worth than ever human person or apple or a Ferrari

I love your description of this organic nature. And it harkens back to one of your first thoughts on seasons, right? Yeah. But if, if the art even moved around town versus just staying in the same place yeah. I love that. And

Not buying, I mean, you help more artists by giving them a commission, which we do in Newport beach. I mean, I'm not living in Newport beach anymore, but that's what we do. And I think you help more people, give them exposure. And then they have an experience of being, and they have something for their system, that helps selling. Because if you have a sculpture in the sculpture garden here and there it helps you. It helps the systems to validate you. But the best is still to value ourselves. I mean, I started the whole thing and hope that a lot of people are connecting with me and, and express it all over the world. That we have to define our own values, why art this important, you know? And I think we did a good job today. Mark,

We did. We covered a lot of ground and listeners. This is just the kind of conversation. This is why we call it a world of creativity for one, we wanna go around the world and hear these thoughts and what somebody is doing in Stockholm and what somebody's doing in Vietnam, and what somebody's doing in Southern California. And today's guest, hailing from Vienna to Southern California. We get both ends of the spectrum there. But two of the keys that I took away from our conversation were definitely focused on the feeling of the work and the creation that the emotions can come out of, but then have this systems approach to have the business side and the valuation side of your work to keep our egos, maybe a little bit more neutral that we don't undervalue.

We don't overvalue. We don't get too attached to our own work and let the to somewhat the buyers, the markets decide if we do wanna make it a commercial venture. So my guest has been Michaell Magrutsche go to his website, Michaell, as he said, with two Ls, Michaellm.com listeners, come back again for our next episode, we'll continue these around the world journeys, we've passed 200 episodes now more than a hundred thousand downloads. So it says something about the desire for more people to listen to the experiences of creative practitioners like Michaell today. So we'll find out what inspires them and how they organize the work. And most of all gain the confidence and the connections to launch their work out into the world. So until next time, I'm Mark Stinson and we're unlocking your world of creativity bye for now.