Is this week a dream? Find out as we chat with John Barker, Host of All The Right Movies and author of the upcoming book All the Right Movies: The Stories and Secrets Behind the Making of 25 of Hollywood's Greatest Films .

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https://alltherightmovies.com/

https://www.amazon.com/All-Right-Movies-Hollywoods-Greatest-ebook/dp/B0GQ5HNJVT

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Track 2: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Bill,

Track 2: back again with another film discussion from the left.

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Track 2: give us a rating and subscribe so you'll get notified of our weekly episodes

Track 2: that drop every Tuesday. Now, onto the show.

Track 2: This week on Left of the Projector, you are going to dream. And while you are

Track 2: dreaming, you're going to dream about listening to Left of the Projector.

Track 2: And while you dream about dreaming about Left of the Projector,

Track 2: you'll have the greatest idea ever.

Track 2: Tell everyone you know about Left of the Projector. And now you're awake and

Track 2: listening to an episode on Inception, directed by Christopher Nolan.

Track 2: It was a box office smash, making nearly $900 million on an estimated $160 million budget.

Track 2: It stars Leonardo DiCaprio, Ken Watanabe, Joseph Gordon-Levitt,

Track 2: Marion Cotillard, Elliot Page, Tom Hardy, Cillian Murphy, Tom Berenger, and Michael Caine.

Track 2: With us to discuss this while we are fully awake is John Barker.

Track 2: John is the co-founder and managing director of all the right movies.

Track 2: And we'll be co-authoring a book by the same name and the stories and secrets

Track 2: behind 25 of Hollywood's greatest films.

Track 2: And of course, as always, my co-host, Evan and Ward. Welcome to the show, John.

Track 3: What a lovely intro that was. Thank you very much. Very kind. Delighted to be here.

Track 3: I've been a fan of your show for a while, fellas, but I first came across the Total Recall one.

Track 3: I think that was the one I emailed about. And then obviously went straight from

Track 3: that into Showgirls, as you would, obviously.

Track 3: Hmm yeah it feels

Track 3: like a transition transition and then

Track 3: they were the ones that made me reach out so yeah delighted to be here um

Track 3: yeah our podcast is called all the right movies where film podcasts it were

Track 3: similar similar things to what you guys in some way do um similar kind of energy

Track 3: i think we go very deep on the kind of behind the scenes stories like creative

Track 3: decisions and that kind of thing we tell the story of hollywood one film at

Track 3: a time we like to say um four of us doing it, it's not just me.

Track 3: And yeah, there's a book coming in September. So if anyone wants to take a look

Track 3: or have a listen, then you can find us anywhere, really.

Track 2: Yeah. And of course, as always, we'll attach, you know, we'll provide links

Track 2: to the show notes, all of us, you know, John's projects, as well as the book

Track 2: and everything like that.

Track 3: Perfect. Thank you.

Track 1: Yeah. So I guess the like sort of opening question we usually ask for guests

Track 1: is, what led you to choose Inception?

Track 1: I know you said a couple of options, but we ended up landing on inception.

Track 3: We did but.

Track 1: What would what made you sort of pick that and if you have any i don't know

Track 1: memories of the film it came out you know a fair amount of time ago now uh.

Track 3: 2010 wasn't it yeah yeah.

Track 1: So i guess what uh what led to you kind of picking it and you know any history with it.

Track 3: Yeah i mean well i'm a big christopher nolan fan as many

Track 3: people are obviously i think nolan kind of has this sort

Track 3: of great like identity as a filmmaker where it's just

Track 3: if he's kind of went what if somebody made films as spectacular

Track 3: and like action-packed as someone like steven spielberg would

Track 3: have the brains of a stanley kubrick film i think

Track 3: that's where he kind of sits kind of very much in both those camps very unique

Track 3: place to be and this is my favorite by him i did

Track 3: say when it came out kind of blew me away when i saw it in 2010 it

Track 3: might even be my favorite film this century i would say i mean there's lots

Track 3: i like but it's one of those rare things i think where you have like blockbuster

Track 3: which also has some thought-provoking ideas some thought-provoking themes and

Track 3: it's also got a heart as well the emotional core around cobb leaning on to caprio's

Track 3: character and his kids and wanting to get home that kind of powers everything,

Track 3: and saying this i might get shot down by you guys but i think this might be

Track 3: the last great original blockbuster hollywood made,

Track 3: Because everything as big as this is like an adaptation or a sequel or a reboot nowadays.

Track 3: And I think the fact that Warner's gave Nolan, what, $160 million,

Track 3: you said, to make an original idea, that just kind of doesn't happen anymore, I don't think.

Track 3: But yeah, loads to talk about in terms of Nolan, which I'm always happy to do.

Track 3: The huge filmmaking, the huge spectacle, and the things it has to say as well.

Track 3: So this was always going to be the one I went to as soon as I saw it on your list, to be honest.

Track 1: I also saw it in the theater. It's personally not my favorite Nolan film.

Track 1: My favorite nola film is actually the prestige which we did an episode not long ago i mean,

Track 1: that one for me just hits the most but what about you warden bill what are you

Track 1: uh did you see this in the theater do you have like how does it how does it

Track 1: fit in like the nolan canon i.

Track 4: Don't think i saw this in theaters but like i mean it's a banger movie it's

Track 4: solid it's a lot of fun um incredible blockbuster cinematography stuff like

Track 4: that like i have some like things i could say but uh i'll wait until we get into it.

Track 2: Yeah i saw this in the film uh in

Track 2: the theaters uh i remember going to say it um it's

Track 2: definitely i think it's up i mean prestige is my

Track 2: it's so good it's so good film but uh i do really i do really enjoy this and

Track 2: i i do think i think you know john's right you know it's like it's it's a huge

Track 2: blockbuster but it also has like actual like thought you know in a world in which most of these,

Track 2: movies that look and do the things this movie does would be,

Track 2: fast and furious like that's where the level of

Track 2: intellectual depth would end you know

Track 2: which is not to slight the fast and the furious movies

Track 2: uh but they are worth what they are worth um for what they are um but yeah i

Track 2: mean this is it's an incredibly cinematic and huge and you know epic movie but

Track 2: it also has like it's like goes the opposite way as well just super deep you

Track 2: know So I really, I like this movie.

Track 2: And honestly, I'm kind of shocked it took me a lot, just like to rewatch it

Track 2: because I haven't seen it since it's on the theaters.

Track 1: Oh, wow. I had seen it maybe once. I saw it in the theater. I remember really liking it.

Track 1: And then I maybe saw it once a few years after that, maybe when it came out

Track 1: on DVD or something. But I hadn't seen it then, since then.

Track 1: So it had been a long time since I had seen it. And I honestly, I don't know.

Track 1: I wonder if you pull like most people, you ask them what their favorite Christopher

Track 1: Nolan film, I wonder if it's this, or most people say Dark Knight,

Track 1: or maybe they say Interstellar.

Track 1: I know that has like a, I don't want to say a cult following because it was

Track 1: a huge blockbuster as well, but I don't know which one people tend to like the most.

Track 1: But this is, yeah, blockbuster filmmaking at its, honestly, at its best.

Track 1: And no one doesn't waste a single penny of that $160 million.

Track 1: It just looks really good. You watch, we say this all the time,

Track 1: you watch like a Marvel movie from, you know, five or six years ago,

Track 1: and the effects just don't even look that good anymore and this is just i feel like.

Track 2: It's phenomenal it's flawless yeah he.

Track 3: Loves his practical effects christopher nolan doesn't he uses digital but only kind of when he has to.

Track 2: Yeah so much of this is so much of this is practical which and for the practical

Track 2: effects that they are i mean i think practical effects always age better but

Track 2: for like in the case of this and i'm not the kind of person that like automatically

Track 2: poop who's like cgi and all that,

Track 2: I think it has its place, but for what he uses in this,

Track 2: the CGI is exactly where it needs to be.

Track 2: These kinds of practical effects, they're never going to age out.

Track 2: They're always going to look as good. This is...

Track 3: Exactly because he's.

Track 2: Not he's not creating monsters and aliens he's create he's using you know practical effects to recreate.

Track 3: Environments because it's so well judged it kind of well it

Track 3: looks real doesn't it so as long as it looks real it'll kind of never age yeah

Track 3: whereas when you see say a marvel film and you're right digital has its place

Track 3: for sure marvel kind of saturate themselves in digital which means as it gets

Track 3: older it'll leave quite quite quickly i think whereas nolan's stuff so well

Track 3: judged about when to use digital when to use practical and this is maybe the best example of it.

Track 1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And for maybe anyone out there who hasn't seen Inception

Track 1: in a while, obviously, we're going to have spoilers throughout this discussion.

Track 1: But as like maybe a brief reminder for people about what, you know, the plot of this is.

Track 1: So Leonardo DiCaprio is Dom Cobb, and he's basically, along with his partner,

Track 1: Joseph Gordon-Levitt, who is Arthur, they are basically corporate espionage

Track 1: thieves who go inside of people's subconscious to steal information for,

Track 1: corporations we only sort of really learn about one job they start at the beginning

Track 1: of the film that it ends up failing and then to the rest of the film is sort of uh,

Track 1: Helping the character Sato continue to do what he wants to do,

Track 1: which is to actually implant or have an inception of an idea into the subconscious

Track 1: to benefit his company in the future.

Track 1: And we really follow along the dreamlike sequences and times where you sort

Track 1: of you're watching it. You don't know it's a it's a dream.

Track 1: And one of the things that I appreciate about about Christopher Nolan's filmmaking

Track 1: is so many of his movies, I think of The Prestige,

Track 1: I think of Oppenheimer so many times as he kind of quote unquote give away something

Track 1: about the film in like an opening that's usually a flashback or something that

Track 1: you discover later, but you don't understand it in the context of the film.

Track 1: And I think that what makes his filmmaking so good is that he hides things in

Track 1: plain sight, but you don't see them.

Track 3: Yeah. I think he loves a big bang opening to his films, doesn't he?

Track 3: That's where I think you can definitely see like Spielberg. I think my favorite

Track 3: is what you mentioned, Evan, the dark night, the intro to that,

Track 3: the joke, our intro and the bank heist, that is incredible.

Track 3: It's like its own short film, but he also does this thing. I think what you

Track 3: were touching on there where his openings sometimes like seem to teach the audience

Track 3: how to watch his films because his films are so unique narratively sometimes

Track 3: he does that in Memento with all the,

Track 3: crazy backwards timeline stuff and in the prestige he

Track 3: kind of gives away the reveal of who was doing the trick and how they

Track 3: do the trick in the first minute but it's really subtle and then

Track 3: inception the first shot it's cob isn't it lying on the

Track 3: beach like wash up on the beach and that's the same image as the

Track 3: end of the film so it kind of opens at the end so the

Track 3: non-linear narratives there straight away and that's the reveal as well

Track 3: because i think we also see his kids on the beach as well that's

Track 3: in the very first shot so that's his main motivation and i

Track 3: think the other thing the opening does which good openers tend to do is it

Track 3: sets our expectations i think for everything that's going

Track 3: to come because narratively the opening itself it moves

Track 3: like an absolute rocket the spectacle is like

Track 3: enormous with the water coming pouring in the walls

Track 3: and stuff like that and there's enough exposition in the first what 10-15 minutes

Track 3: to power like an entire film so i think it's clever because it tells us this

Track 3: is an action film it'll move really quickly and you need to pay attention so

Track 3: we kind of know that he tells us that without telling us just by making the

Track 3: start like that as well which i think is really clever he does that quite a lot i think yeah i think.

Track 2: I think this, you know, add uniquely that he, like in the prestige,

Track 2: like it is very straightforward and memento.

Track 2: And like, you know, a lot of those other films, it's very, you know,

Track 2: like he does explain how to watch this movie and he kind of like gives it away in the beginning.

Track 2: Not like reveals, but he lets you know.

Track 2: I feel like the inception is the most open.

Track 2: A it you can be left doubting whether that hint is the is actually giving it away in the end.

Track 1: You know for i don't know that i think

Track 1: when it came out i remember them doing the oscars

Track 1: that following year and they you know that was sort of the big thing is like

Track 1: the dream within a dream and sort of the the idea inception

Track 1: of being able to you know actually enter someone's subconscious

Track 1: and throughout the movie you are

Track 1: often unsure of when like reality

Track 1: ends and dreams begin and vice versa and you

Track 1: know it's trying to help you understand that there's like these there is

Track 1: the dream world and then there's the reality world and which

Track 1: one is actually the real one maybe for especially for

Track 1: leo dicabrio cobb's character where he later

Track 1: reveals he can't even dream without entering you

Track 1: know through these ways and it's both sad

Track 1: to have him sort of reveal that that he can no

Track 1: longer dream and then i also like think about

Track 1: the deeper ideas like can he not dream physically or he can he no longer actually

Track 1: dream of things he can't actually come up with any ideas for himself anymore

Track 1: because all he is is being inserted into other people's you know subconscious

Track 1: and their dreams and memories for himself like he doesn't even have of,

Track 1: i feel like he doesn't even have a reality or a dream version of himself anymore which is kind of yeah.

Track 4: I mean for cob it's even sadder than

Track 4: not being able to physically dream like it's stated

Track 4: in the film like that's why you got all those guys in the basement of yusuf's

Track 4: fucking shop is because they can't physically dream anymore like that's the

Track 4: only way they can dream now um for cob though it's not dreaming it's reliving

Track 4: memories with maul yeah that's all it is yeah.

Track 2: They talk so much the conversation is about

Track 2: dreams and when they talk

Track 2: about it you are automatically placed

Track 2: to talk to think about it reflect on it as like what we talk about like dreams

Track 2: like you know you go to sleep you have a dream but in the end like what they're

Track 2: actually talking about is the less literal term of dream, but the metaphorical dream,

Track 2: because Cobb has one dream that he wants to achieve.

Track 2: And that is not, you know, and when we say like dream in this case, it's, it's,

Track 2: the dream of something like of achieving something it's having something come

Track 2: to fruition and that is just be with his children like at that point he just

Track 2: that's his dream is to go home and be with his kids that's it.

Track 3: I think it's interesting the point that ward made there about the basement scene

Track 3: in mombata i like what you call the use of shop

Track 3: that's quite nice but you've got all these like old fellas like paying

Track 3: to come in every day presumably because they can't bear like waiting

Track 3: life anymore and the guy who seems to be running things he says he

Track 3: says something like the dreams become their reality who are you to say

Track 3: otherwise and i think that might be one of the core arguments

Track 3: of the film like is a dream worse than reality and then

Track 3: that begs begs the question of kind of what is reality because it's

Track 3: what our mind kind of perceives it to be isn't it so if it's a dream or

Track 3: if it's real if it is what you perceive what's the

Track 3: difference who are you to say otherwise i think that's kind of nolan speaking

Track 3: to us there and it does explore as well because yeah you've

Track 3: got mal whose dream who's chosen dreams over

Track 3: reality and she couldn't find her way back she got kind of lost it seems like

Track 3: and then cobb's whole arc is choosing reality or trying to to be with his kids

Track 3: but then at the end it's ambiguous about what he has chosen so it seems to explore

Track 3: all these different ways of looking at dreams and that kind of thing which is

Track 3: just mind-blowing to me and.

Track 4: I was even trying to think about like the movie too where it's like you got

Track 4: corporations is just running fucking rampant with guns.

Track 3: Yeah so.

Track 4: Obviously this is like a very very totalitarian capitalist system and so it's

Track 4: like why wouldn't people reach out to an escape into another reality that things

Track 4: are so bad in the actual material one that they live in yeah.

Track 2: But the only time we.

Track 4: Yeah we don't get to see a lot of the world but yeah we it was just an idea i was I.

Track 2: Think that ties in really perfectly with the use of shop,

Track 2: because all I could think about, the only time we see corporate agents running

Track 2: around with guns in reality is in Mombasa.

Track 2: Right? That's their Mombasa, right? And all I could think was,

Track 2: it's like, it never changes.

Track 2: It's like any, the global South is just the place where white men with guns

Track 2: run around shooting at each other and using it as a means of exerting their

Track 2: power with no regard for the people that live there. None.

Track 2: And, you know, it's just like, yeah, it makes sense that the people that live

Track 2: in that place would want to leave that behind.

Track 2: But largely this, and at the same time,

Track 2: because the rest of it is all just in dreams, this is just people with power

Track 2: making their own lives miserable and shooting at each other and using people

Track 2: for their own ends when they could just not do that.

Track 2: Like you could just not do that you could just,

Track 2: be people that like contribute to society.

Track 3: Yeah well saito who kind of employs

Track 3: cob he's like obviously a big corporate businessman isn't he and his goal seems

Track 3: like is just he wants to remove a competitor so it's really cynical his goals

Track 3: even though he's kind of presented as the good guy in some ways and then cob's

Track 3: team are basically like contractors so they only get to use their skills when

Track 3: like some rich billionaire pays them to yeah.

Track 4: It's capitalist infighting with mercenaries but dreams instead of.

Track 3: Bombs which.

Track 2: I mean hey but honestly for the most part i guess people are making out better on that than.

Track 1: In the real world you say dream you say dreams instead

Track 1: of bomb but really it's the thing that they need to do to be able to maybe prevent

Track 1: i don't want to like prevent bombing so he wants to take over this organization

Track 1: set to basically have a global control over i don't does it is it a realist

Track 1: uh real estate company i forget what it did they ever say.

Track 3: Engineering.

Track 1: Oh, energy, right. So basically to control the world's energy.

Track 4: And it's like his main competitor. Yeah, it's like his main competitor.

Track 4: He basically wants a monopoly.

Track 1: What will that will then do by being the global controller of energy would just

Track 1: then lead to both prevent and lead to more violence because then it's going

Track 1: to have people fighting over the costs of that energy.

Track 1: Just the the stranglehold on it you know one person

Track 1: or two people shouldn't own the world's energy

Track 1: or any of these things they should in reality be you know co-owned by everyone

Track 1: so you can have equal access to it but yeah in a very cynical and you said john

Track 1: like that you're sort of supposed to view him as sort of the quote-unquote good

Track 1: guy when he is is nowhere near you know he is very cynical and evil yeah.

Track 3: Well the job that hired for as well cobb's team like planting this idea so deep

Track 3: in someone's subconscious that they kind of believe it's their own idea that's

Track 3: almost some like futuristic form of like advertising or propaganda or something

Track 3: if that was a real thing you can guarantee corporations will be tapping right

Track 3: into that and selling things to people.

Track 1: I mean wow i feel like we sort of this.

Track 2: Is the torture.

Track 1: Nexus this.

Track 2: Is the torture nexus they will be made.

Track 1: Well i mean it's not

Track 1: so far and different from other sort

Track 1: of uh dystopian so we don't like maybe think

Track 1: of this film as like a dystopian movie we sort

Track 1: of think of it you know science fiction action whatever

Track 1: but it really is like a dystopian world where people who

Track 1: control a certain technology can insert and

Track 1: steal information from you and i mean

Track 1: i don't know if i put this directly in like the notes but it's not

Track 1: that far removed from the idea of you know

Track 1: ai functions that are essentially scouring the internet and stealing you know

Track 1: studio league studio ghibli movies and their art and all these things and people's

Track 1: you know in personal intellectual property and then selling that to the masses

Track 1: as like a copy of this in some like uh,

Track 1: cynical way so it is kind of a dystopia i.

Track 4: Mean it was literally created as a military training tool so that soldiers could

Track 4: actually kill each other and experience wounds in physical damage.

Track 1: Yeah i think.

Track 3: Doesn't it yeah it feels to me like i mean we don't really find out but it feels

Track 3: to me like the technology is still quite new and it hasn't really got out to

Track 3: the masses yet but it feels like if you move in this world forward 10 years

Track 3: it would have just completely changed everything this technology that's how it feels to me i.

Track 2: Feel like it has to be somewhat widespread or else you wouldn't have a.

Track 3: Basement full of people on it.

Track 1: But yeah.

Track 4: Basement full of people you got college courses on this shit yeah like.

Track 1: Well is the college course you got ma.

Track 4: And dom in their free time just doing it.

Track 1: Is the yeah is the college technology or is it simply just on dreams and then

Track 1: like the ella pages character then learns that this is actually something that

Track 1: they can can do adrian her character in it i don't know no i ariadna sorry you're right you're right.

Track 2: It's it's a hard name to i.

Track 1: Don't know but yeah i mean you're right probably in 10 years the you know the

Track 1: one of these sito could then take control of this technology and sell it you

Track 1: know or um employ an entire army of people who can do what leonardo dicaprio

Track 1: is going to do to be able to go around the world and implanting ideas,

Track 1: you know, have them forget about.

Track 4: No, he's going to hire Cobb to train an AI system so that he can mass employ

Track 4: AI systems to inset people at scale.

Track 1: Yeah, that's why it is kind of a dystopia, right?

Track 2: I can see that.

Track 3: Yeah well that kind of capitalist angle i think that's why nolan kind of structures

Track 3: cobb's team like a it's like a film crew isn't it where you've got like cobb's

Track 3: kind of the director he's the one with the vision then arthur's the producer

Track 3: he does the research he kind of pulls it all together,

Track 3: arianna's like i guess a production designer because she sort of builds the

Track 3: world eames is obviously the actor because he's like literally pretending to

Track 3: be different people and then site was the money man the studio

Track 3: and then so i think it's like a another angle

Track 3: is that it's a film about a group of artists who only get to use their skills

Track 3: and their kind of craft when a corporation pays them to i mean nolan understands

Track 3: that i'm not sure nolan's commenting on hollywood maybe but i think he's based

Track 3: a team around that kind of structure because that's the one he knows so that's

Track 3: kind of there as well from a capitalist point of view i think yeah.

Track 2: Ward you wanna what you're talking about propaganda.

Track 4: Yeah no i don't think it's that dystopian the idea of

Track 4: inception i mean like and i'll i'll open

Track 4: up and be honest i wasn't the first one to have this idea i looked it up i came

Track 4: to it independently though uh but no like the process of inception is very much

Track 4: like how hegemonic control is implanted and normalized you know capitalist hegemonic control,

Track 4: but instead of like hot dudes coming into our dreams it's advertisements media

Track 4: education systems and news propaganda constantly telling us what to think and

Track 4: how to think it i think the film captures incredibly well the fact of how and

Track 4: when hegemonic control is the most effective,

Track 4: which is when the subject internalizes the will and desire of the ruling class

Track 4: and experiences it as free will.

Track 4: Like, as Gramsci would say, like, the battleground for common sense,

Track 4: it's whatever the culture has decided is common sense.

Track 4: But people act like, no, no, no, that is common sense. It's like,

Track 4: no, no, that's what you've been taught.

Track 4: And that's how they maintain these systems of control. And the process of Inception

Track 4: mirrors that process beautifully.

Track 2: When you're in a dream, you don't question that dream.

Track 2: No matter how outlandish it

Track 2: may be like you never question what's

Track 2: happening and in reality it's the same kind of what when

Track 2: we talk about gaining class consciousness like waking up

Track 2: and it's the same kind of thing it's like you gain

Track 2: class consciousness you start to see the systems you wake up and

Track 2: you go wait a minute that that actually doesn't make sense that

Track 2: actually those pieces don't fit together that actually

Track 2: is illogical it is irrational to think through the through these capitalist

Track 2: like mentalities the same way like you wake up a dream and you're like wait

Track 2: a minute crocodiles don't fly with farts it's like you know i can't actually pick.

Track 4: On myself by my bootstraps.

Track 2: Yeah exactly yeah that's impossible well.

Track 1: The like going to like back to the sort of their goal in the movie.

Track 1: I mean, their initial job and then later job is, you know, first is to steal

Track 1: intellectual property from a corporation.

Track 1: And that seems to probably be what they're constantly doing over and over. And then...

Track 2: But it's not even the job. That's an audition.

Track 1: Oh, you think that's how you view it?

Track 2: That's all that is.

Track 2: The first job is an audition. It's an audition. That's like the whole thing.

Track 2: Saito's like, he comes with the job and it's like to see, to prove.

Track 2: I mean, I think he even says, it's like, oh yeah, you've proven like, you know.

Track 1: Yes. Yes.

Track 4: He's like, you're as good as they say you are. A dream within a dream. Like, oh shit.

Track 1: So do you think that was, do you still, do you then not see them having done

Track 1: this multiple times before?

Track 4: Oh, they definitely have.

Track 2: So clearly, yeah.

Track 4: They reference a ton of other jobs.

Track 1: Yeah, I mean, that's why they're in Moobossi getting chased.

Track 4: They have names for bits, like thieves do, like in Ocean's Eleven.

Track 2: Yeah.

Track 4: Like, they got, we're going to do a Mr. Charles.

Track 2: True.

Track 1: Okay, that, yeah, that's.

Track 2: Eames, Eames at one point is like, I have the perfect lady for this.

Track 2: Like, yeah, no, they've done it plenty of times.

Track 4: Yeah. It's like, oh, I need a forger. And it's like, oh, somebody,

Track 4: that's what they call somebody who can, like, impersonate other people in dreams.

Track 4: Like, they got names for, like, specific types of thieves.

Track 1: And Yusef is the chemist for that. That's why they go to Mubasa to begin with, right?

Track 1: To find him because he can put you in a psychological state with drugs that

Track 1: make it so it's harder to wake up so you can go like into the dream within a dream within a dream.

Track 4: But not fuck with the ear. Pretty impressive.

Track 2: It's very interesting. It's like some of these people, it's like they've developed.

Track 4: I do like when they push Joseph Gordon-Levitt over and over again in the chair.

Track 4: I thought that was really funny.

Track 2: It's like it implies that like different people have different skills.

Track 2: It's like different people that do this have like basically like superpowers

Track 2: it's like ains is like you know capable of like manipulating reality to a greater

Track 2: degree in you know the dream state,

Track 2: ariadne can like construct a world it's it's it is an interesting concept.

Track 1: Yeah i i can't believe i i completely missed that that i mean i know i remember

Track 1: that you know that saito's in that dream but i didn't in my head wasn't thinking

Track 1: of it as being an audition to

Track 1: prove that they could do you know do the job for him of actually you know.

Track 3: Imp well the thing about this job is that it's inception isn't it because normally

Track 3: they go into people's dreams and just take secrets this is about planting an

Track 3: idea so this is that's why this is new i think yeah.

Track 2: Yeah and it is they do kind of like it does kind of and.

Track 4: It's not even that new of an idea because i mean like saito talks about it.

Track 2: Eems when.

Track 4: Cod meets up with him in mubasa it's like oh yeah no totally possible it just

Track 4: gotta be like it's not the newest idea it just seems.

Track 2: Rather really hard really.

Track 3: Hard to do but you can see it isn't it he says it's perfectly possible it's

Track 3: just very difficult bloody difficult I think he says yeah I.

Track 4: Think that's why they mostly rely on extraction.

Track 2: Yeah I do think that like what you were saying John about like how like Nolan

Track 2: sets it up like and we've talked about this before like how a lot of Nolan's work is,

Track 2: so about like art and making art it's like yeah,

Track 2: very personal in a very deep way um

Track 2: and like i think it's you know i yeah i

Track 2: want to like to i want to talk about like all like the ways in which this is

Track 2: like you know they can be interpreted from a leftist perspective but like i

Track 2: think that like overwhelmingly like you are correct and he is making a movie

Track 2: about his experience as an artist like that's what it is i.

Track 3: Think he usually is isn't he i think northern's so obsessed with like just the idea.

Track 2: Of creativity.

Track 3: That all these films are about that, like the prestige, what he relates to there.

Track 3: It's about 19th century magicians, but it's the fact that creating things,

Track 3: he massively relates to that, I think.

Track 3: And then here, Ariadne says, when she comes back, when Cobb says,

Track 3: she'll come back because she can't accept the real world now.

Track 3: And she does, and she calls what she was doing with the architecture, pure creation.

Track 3: I think that's Nolan. That's Nolan's words, I think.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 2: Yeah. It's so much about like being an artist and creating things.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 2: But then also like being...

Track 2: Is shackled to a system that wants to benefit from those things.

Track 2: And yet at the same time, I also think, especially again, you know,

Track 2: Nolan historically is pretty closed mouth on a lot of ways.

Track 2: But in recent years, he has said some certain things which have revealed some

Track 2: prejudices and biases towards certain class systems.

Track 2: Um and i do think that like sito really kind of gives that game away that he

Track 2: does think there are good billionaires because he does want you to think like

Track 2: sito's like the good guy like yeah,

Track 2: like he very much i do think that it gives the game away that no one thinks

Track 2: like yeah some billionaires we actually do need billionaires and some of them

Track 2: are good they're good guys they have to fund his films right yeah well.

Track 1: And then he's.

Track 4: Got he's got a fun he's got a fun the dream heist and he's a really good guy

Track 4: for holding up his end of the bargain you know the deal that he fucking made

Track 4: after he basically coerced Cobb into the job.

Track 1: Well and then you're talking about how the movies all are sort of about the

Track 1: you know the art and in the and someone trying to do I mean I think Oppenheimer

Track 1: is sort of like the culmination of that because Oppenheimer is creating an idea

Track 1: that then leads to literal mass murder and destruction because once the idea is sort of,

Track 1: comes out the art is created you don't no

Track 1: longer have control over it in the you know in our world anymore and you know

Track 1: it's like uh i'm trying to like think of his other movies where that fits into

Track 1: i think even batman the series you know batman as a as his persona you know

Track 1: as a good billionaire quote-unquote too so yeah.

Track 3: Well his batman as well is all very much about creating like an identity it's

Track 3: all went through the films about how he's a symbol for things and that relates

Track 3: to Nolan creating identities for his films and things he creates,

Track 3: I think creating a brand kind of, I've never really seen Batman looked at in that way before,

Track 3: but Nolan always kind of brings, I think just what, I don't think he's always

Track 3: necessarily making a point, I think he's just what he understands,

Track 3: he understands that the relationship between

Track 3: a film crew and a studio so he kind of structures inception like that i'm not

Track 3: i'm not saying he's necessarily saying critiquing it i think it's just i understand

Track 3: that so i can make that work but and i think he just brings that to everything he does.

Track 1: Yeah yeah and i think we were talking sort of in our like our

Track 1: group chat about this before is i think you just mentioned

Track 1: it too bill and like that's actually the plot of this movie is where lernardo

Track 1: caprio wants to go home he wants to go back to his

Track 1: reality that he lost be with his children and sort

Track 1: of have this sort of you know quote-unquote happy ending and it seems like a

Track 1: lot of uh the parts of nolan films is the idea of also sort of finding their

Track 1: way home like even the prestige you would say is like that i think a lot of

Track 1: them have that same feeling so it's really nolan injecting this into these i.

Track 4: Was i was joking that a lot of nolan films.

Track 1: Are yeah sorry ward has crazy things.

Track 4: Man does crazy things just to get home, but include the fact that the aesthetic

Track 4: of the movie is overwhelmingly like Ikea catalog slash airport lounge,

Track 4: because that's Nolan's aesthetic.

Track 2: The Prestige is the only one that breaks that.

Track 4: Prestige breaks that one pretty good, but this one is like, oh,

Track 4: it's on exhibit in this. I love it.

Track 2: I mean, it's beautiful.

Track 4: It's beautiful. I'm not going to say that it's not beautiful,

Track 4: but it is so Nolan's aesthetic of airport like premium airport lounge and it's

Track 4: throughout the movie and I love it.

Track 2: That like very like modernist, you know.

Track 4: Aesthetic.

Track 1: I like it though.

Track 4: Yeah no i like it too but like god that is his aesthetic.

Track 3: It definitely is i think the idea of going home is something that's in a

Track 3: lot of his films because i mean some of them it's like literal like interstellar is

Track 3: literally about getting back home dun kirk is about literally getting

Track 3: back home so he's not even hiding it there here he's getting

Track 3: back home but home here is obviously to it's not

Track 3: a place it's his children and even more specifically i

Track 3: think his children's faces but it's like he can't even remember what they look

Track 3: like anymore because we can't see them either so the

Track 3: entire film is like structured around yeah until the end exactly

Track 3: yeah so what does that mean but it's all

Track 3: structured around him like earning the right to look at

Track 3: his kids properly it seems like that's what he's fighting for and that's the

Track 3: emotional core behind all of his motivations and what backs it up as well the

Track 3: whole going home thing is that Cobb's first name is Dom and in lots of languages

Track 3: coming from like I think it's Latin Domus Dom means home so nolan's even put

Track 3: this motivation right there in his name yeah.

Track 2: Damn nolan to me is one of those like directors who like.

Track 2: Very much you know we talk a lot about like you know separating the art for

Track 2: the artist but also like um how culture and the society the material conditions

Track 2: you live in the society you live in,

Track 2: fundamentally affects what you create and how it is impossible to separate those things.

Track 2: And it's like Nolan on the surface, like the more we talk about it,

Track 2: it's like, it's almost like, like how you said, John, it's like he,

Track 2: you know, he's making things from like the perspective of what he understands. And it's like, yeah,

Track 2: It almost seems like at a certain level, like Nolan makes films on an unconscious level.

Track 2: It's just like pure aid streaming and like not even aid, but like the subconscious,

Track 2: like streaming out and like being shaped as he goes.

Track 2: And it's like, but then you look at it and you have to, like you said about

Track 2: going home and it's like all those things.

Track 2: It's like, it's struggling against systems that want to control and all that.

Track 2: It's like, and then you have to look at that and realize that even if he isn't

Track 2: deliberately telling a certain thing,

Track 2: he is still reflecting the reality of the situation and how people's lives are

Track 2: controlled and manipulated and, um,

Track 2: managed by forces beyond their control.

Track 2: And it's like, you can't help but have those things be reflected in what you create.

Track 3: Here then where we're talking about like Saito being the sort of bad guy slash

Track 3: good guy depending on how we look at it do you think Nolan's making a point

Track 3: about that or you think he's got the billionaire being in the kind of funder

Track 3: just because that's kind of how films tend to be or do you think he's making a point about that I.

Track 4: Think it's a bit of like a self-reflection like projection where it's like yes

Track 4: it is part of the art making process where you need a funded billionaire but

Track 4: also like just understanding the reality of the world.

Track 3: Where it's.

Track 4: Like rich people can make things happen so it would be like rich corporate espionage

Track 4: is using this technology and that's how you can make a cool heist film i.

Track 2: Think that his placement of him is an indication of that and a reflection of

Track 2: that but his depiction of him inherently as a good guy is a.

Track 3: Reflection of.

Track 2: No one's own prejudices and internal and internal biases.

Track 3: What do you think it's conscious or subconscious i.

Track 2: Don't know what's the dream.

Track 3: Yeah,

Track 3: yeah fair enough.

Track 1: It's it's it's

Track 1: funny you say that because then i think because then you think about the

Track 1: movie too where you're watching the dream

Track 1: versions that are happening in the film and like then the dream within the dream

Track 1: within the dream and you no longer have an idea of what is it that they're creating

Track 1: as part of this world or is it what is it that the dreamer is actually creating

Track 1: and it's just the idea of having a dream within a dream is so insane to me because,

Track 1: how does the second dreamer's dream impact you know the first person and it's

Track 1: i don't know it's this uh i could go you know you could go back and forth it's just it's so they.

Track 4: Kind of they kind of explain it a little bit where it's like that's like why

Track 4: when on the third dream like the dream within a dream within a dream they went into.

Track 1: Fisher's head.

Track 4: But lied to him saying we're going into the other guy's head so that he'd help him break into.

Track 1: His own head true yeah but.

Track 3: I always do think that i've always thought watching this that you mentioned

Track 3: there ward about how it's he's making a heist film which he absolutely is and

Track 3: i think i've always thought of all the things that are going on with the technology

Track 3: and the concepts and the themes and everything i think his aim at the end of

Track 3: it here is to make a great heist film because he loves James Bond, doesn't he?

Track 3: I think this is the closest he's going to get to a Bond film and he kind of knows it.

Track 3: You see it at the end with the snow, it's on Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Track 3: It's exactly the same. It's like the same.

Track 4: Yeah, I saw an interview with him where he was talking like he was working on

Track 4: this movie for like 10 years or some shit.

Track 4: And he originally like the original idea was like, I want a heist movie set

Track 4: in like, like in dreams, like a dream heist movie, but it took him like six

Track 4: years to try to figure out how to like get the story to where it needed to be.

Track 3: Yeah I think after the dark night because I was so successful Warner's basically

Track 3: just went whatever you want here's the money go make it.

Track 2: Yeah so you don't you don't think they would give him a.

Track 3: Bounce film I think they didn't offer him it and he wasn't interested because

Track 3: he wanted to have final cut yeah he said no,

Track 3: yeah he said.

Track 1: No because of the final cut.

Track 3: Yeah he said he wanted final cut yeah which he's never going to get on a bond

Track 3: film are you so wait yeah warner.

Track 2: Brothers gave him a give him a final cut on batman i don't because that's.

Track 3: No no batman begins because he's kind of a nobody then really wasn't he compared

Track 3: to now i think i think he got.

Track 1: It for like interstellar and probably tenet and oppenheimer i bet he got final cut.

Track 3: Oh yeah yeah 100 i get them for that i think they went to nolan for bond the

Track 3: the new one with the deal is doing it i think i think they went to Nolan first,

Track 3: and he wanted a final cut because he's in a position to ask for it now,

Track 3: but I mean, you're never going to get it, are you?

Track 2: Yeah no not with amazon.

Track 3: Not with bond that's.

Track 1: Right isn't amazon studios.

Track 3: Well yeah yeah i think it is now yeah i.

Track 1: Would love to see a his bond movie though that would be pretty.

Track 3: Oh me too what i'd love to see them do was to say right

Track 3: you can have final cut but what we want is a trilogy go and do what you want

Track 3: cast who you want it's going to be standalone three films and then we'll start

Track 3: again yeah and just do what you want with it cast cast your bond cast your em

Track 3: cast all those people christopher nolan's bond a trilogy it would make a fortune

Track 3: and it would be really interesting to see what he would do oh.

Track 2: Yeah i mean the the batman films defined batman for people like that watch the

Track 2: as like a person like i read comics for years before that and it was a huge

Track 2: batman fan and i saw like how that like even in like in the comic world like

Track 2: how that came to define the character,

Track 2: so strongly for years.

Track 3: But he takes influences from the comics as well doesn't he because i think when

Track 3: he came to batman something that he must have thought him and david goya when

Track 3: they wrote it because they've got all these decades and decades and decades

Track 3: of great batman stories and hardly anything on the big screen must have thought

Track 3: we've got this absolute gold mine here that we can just pick the best bits from

Track 3: and that's kind of what they did in lots of ways i.

Track 2: Mean i wouldn't say hardly anything on the big screen there was yeah quite a few batman films.

Track 3: Like four maybe four films but yeah but not these storylines 80 years worth of comics yeah.

Track 4: George clooney had nipples in one.

Track 1: Right that's true yeah you're right you had the uh the batman batman returns.

Track 3: Batman forever.

Track 1: And what's the other.

Track 3: One? Yeah, yeah, it's the five.

Track 2: Don't forget the Adam West Batman film.

Track 1: I mean, you probably could have multiple episodes on all of the sort of Easter eggs.

Track 1: Like if you go on YouTube, you can look up videos of all the little Easter eggs

Track 1: and names and the way that he, you know, you said how his name is Dom, which means going home.

Track 1: All of the things that no one does. like one thing that i

Track 1: appreciate and pretty much every one of his films is the

Track 1: attention to the detail of everything the names of the characters things that

Track 1: they're doing in it you know the the uh you know things that you probably don't

Track 1: even notice in the background of films that are in the in the film as you're

Track 1: watching it and this one is no different i don't have all of the loads yeah i think.

Track 3: There's a wall i think one of them is that if you take all the main characters

Track 3: first names are names like dom arthur eames all of them put them together it

Track 3: spells out dreams i think.

Track 1: That's right get the.

Track 3: Fuck out i think so i think it's right yeah.

Track 1: Yeah actually d r yeah it does,

Track 1: i mean depends upon the order you put them in i guess and then this is another

Track 1: thing i saw this one on on imdb it was that when you see when they played this

Track 1: movie on cable they the amount of time that they listed for the film was like two days, 40 hours.

Track 1: I can't remember the exact amount, which is how long the movie would be if it

Track 1: were taking place in the dream version.

Track 1: Because the reality moves that yeah.

Track 3: Because the song that they play the is pf

Track 3: one uh john noisian regret a rianne

Track 3: that's two minutes 28 seconds long that whole song and

Track 3: the film is two hours 28 minutes long it's done intentionally there's

Track 3: loads of stuff there's a bit there's a bit at the end as well i don't know if you've noticed but when

Track 3: the um when the credits roll it comes up with inception and

Track 3: then as you watch the whole credits it goes you see inception flash up again

Track 3: in the middle and then inception flashes up again at the end so it's like going

Track 3: back up the dream levels the three dream levels and then at the end of the credits

Track 3: he plays nausea and regret as well so it's like he's waking you up from the

Track 3: dream at the end of the film it's ridiculous i.

Track 1: Did i did not notice that or.

Track 3: Didn't know.

Track 1: About that that's that's.

Track 3: So much in there yeah well.

Track 1: I mean that's actually maybe a good uh segue to talk about the ending and that's

Track 1: like been was debated for many years so you know they finally the culmination

Track 1: of it is that they through almost sheer luck and determination.

Track 1: They're able to not only go through the three dreams, the dream within the dream

Track 1: within the dream, but then they have to go into the sort of the world below

Track 1: that where you can just be lost and finally are able to succeed.

Track 1: And then it takes you way back to the very initial scene on the beach where

Track 1: Leonardo DiCaprio goes to see Saito as this old man and is able to,

Track 1: you know, fix things the way he needs to.

Track 1: And then he wakes up, he comes back as if they're on, you know,

Track 1: they're on the plane, they get off the plane,

Track 1: they're all sort of looking at each other, you know we yeah we did it you finally

Track 1: get to go home and you see him go into his house and you

Track 1: see him go out to speak to his children and he spins the

Track 1: totem his little top and you don't

Track 1: see it stop and maybe we should have mentioned earlier is

Track 1: that the they all have this little totem that they can use to ensure that they're

Track 1: in the reality version and not the dream version and it doesn't stop moving

Track 1: and so the thought for many people is okay is he still in the dream or does

Track 1: he actually wake up and part of my my thinking is like does it matter,

Track 1: in like a very cynical way like does it okay i.

Track 2: Think it does i have yeah i just i'm gonna i'm gonna let everybody else talk about this.

Track 1: First okay john what do you think i mean you don't have to answer that question

Track 1: exactly but like what do you make of the sort of ambiguity ambiguity of it.

Track 3: Yeah i mean that's one of the things that gets taught about the most isn't it i think nor,

Track 3: nor often does this thing where he has like layers to his

Track 3: themes like he kind of does it in the prestige where there's

Track 3: like twists within twists within twists and stuff like that and here

Track 3: the main question that the narrative asks at the end is is common

Track 3: reality or is he in a dream he doesn't tell us

Track 3: which is which but i think the more interesting question which you're

Track 3: saying is if he is in a dream does it

Track 3: matter and i'm gonna

Track 3: have to disagree with you bill because i don't think it does matter because

Track 3: i think reality as we see it is kind of our

Track 3: perception of what's around us isn't it it's like sounds and

Track 3: sights and smells and if you're in a dream or if you're not isn't it the same

Track 3: thing i think the main thing for me to take i take away from it is is it what

Track 3: he wants and is he happy there which it seems like he is so i think that's what

Track 3: matters and if he is happy there then who are we to say otherwise that's kind of how i look at it.

Track 4: Ready word um so i think he's in the real world because you don't have to be

Track 4: dreaming to understand And the United States is corrupt enough that some billionaire

Track 4: can make a phone call and get a felon,

Track 4: illegal person back into the fucking country.

Track 4: The U.S. is that corrupt. That's easy. You don't have to be dreaming to believe that.

Track 2: You've got to be dreaming to believe otherwise.

Track 4: But it doesn't. Yeah.

Track 4: Does it matter, though?

Track 1: You say it doesn't matter.

Track 4: As a miserable Marxist, it doesn't matter. All the systems of exploitation and

Track 4: control still exist. It doesn't matter where he's at. He didn't change anything.

Track 1: Yeah, that's how I fall, too.

Track 3: Nolan will never ever tell us, will he? I think Nolan knows,

Track 3: but he will never ever tell us. That's what he liked.

Track 1: After you give your reason, Bill, I'm going to share something that supposedly,

Track 1: quote-unquote, solves the mystery.

Track 1: I say that in quotes because no one ever confirms anything.

Track 3: I thought I was thinking, yeah.

Track 1: Yeah, Michael Caine thing.

Track 2: It's the Michael Caine thing.

Track 1: Well, for anyone who doesn't know, I'll just say it real quick,

Track 1: is that Michael Caine, when he agreed to do the movie or was given the script,

Track 1: he was confused about which scenes are dreams and reality.

Track 1: And Nolan apparently told him that if he's in the scene, it's reality.

Track 1: And so in the final scene of the film, when Michael Caine takes him back to

Track 1: his house, he is in the scene and thus it should be considered reality.

Track 1: And then they've gone even further and they've, people have recorded the sound

Track 1: that the top makes when it's about to stop spinning.

Track 1: And they claim that if you stop it and you do it in the same part at the end,

Track 1: it actually is about to stop spinning, but you don't get to see it.

Track 1: And so it's left to the viewer.

Track 2: So, you know. I think there's two levels to this. First of all, is he in a dream?

Track 2: Yes, he is in a dream because his dream is to be with his children.

Track 2: But that is also reality. He is in a dream because he's with his children.

Track 2: And the fact that we know it is reality, I think, first of all,

Track 2: because you don't have to record it.

Track 2: You can tell at the end when it cuts that the top is about to fall.

Track 2: He doesn't care because he, he doesn't need to have it confirmed because he

Track 2: gets to see his children again. And that's his dream.

Track 2: That is his literal, like objective dream to see his children again.

Track 2: We see the children's face.

Track 2: So as audience members, we should know this is reality.

Track 2: But more to the point, like, I think it matters because to claim that,

Track 2: like, basically it's like, it's an argument about idealism.

Track 2: And when I say idealism, I mean the philosophical concept, not the idea of,

Track 2: like, you know, you believe in the utopia.

Track 2: The idea that, like, idealism, that, like, your thoughts can,

Track 2: like, you know, it's the fundamental tenet of liberalism.

Track 2: That, like, if you think something, then that's the way reality is.

Track 2: And I despise people that live in their own little constructed fantasy lands.

Track 2: It's why I kind of hate Disney world and Disney adults and like the way they like go there.

Track 2: It's like, well, I can escape from reality. Fuck you. Like.

Track 2: The entire thing that all paces me off so much, because you know what?

Track 2: You know what is important about reality?

Track 2: The fact that your actions affect other people and that your existence is not

Track 2: solely predicated upon your individualist

Track 2: thought and tendencies and your desires, your selfish desires.

Track 2: No, reality is about connecting with other people. In this case,

Track 2: the most obvious being his children.

Track 2: That's reality. That's what's important. The fact that like his children are

Track 2: individuals and that they have their own identity and that he can be in their

Track 2: life and they will grow up and be people in their own right.

Track 2: That's what's important.

Track 2: That's what is like that's why it is important to

Track 2: be like oh because you know what like yeah in the

Track 2: dream world of reality these systems still exist but

Track 2: in reality if you work with other people if you join community if you work with

Track 2: other people if you move forward in concert with other human beings you can

Track 2: change that you can change reality when connecting with other people because

Track 2: it is about more than just you and what you want and what you dreamed and what

Track 2: you care about it's about more than you.

Track 2: That's why it's important to be like, this is reality because it's about more

Track 2: than you. You're not the sole purpose. You're not the sole focus.

Track 3: I think what Nolan said was, so many with Nolan, and you'll never, ever say,

Track 3: specifically where he is i don't think but he did

Track 3: see that the important thing from his point of view is that cob is happy now

Track 3: he made a decision whether he's in a dream or not he's kind of not really concerned

Track 3: with it anymore he's just concerned about being with his kids and he said that's

Track 3: the main thing he's kind of his arc is complete because he's got over that wanting

Track 3: to be somewhere else yeah yeah yeah.

Track 2: I mean as a character yeah that's but there's you know there's There's the point

Track 2: of the point of the character's.

Track 3: Point of view and.

Track 2: What the story means beyond that. And it's like, yeah, for Cobb's character,

Track 2: yeah, it's true. His arc is complete.

Track 2: But I also think that from a story perspective, that that is fundamentally about

Track 2: being in reality. Because you know what?

Track 2: Nobody, I think, listen, I don't have kids. John, do you have kids?

Track 3: I don't.

Track 2: All right, so you and I, we don't have kids. Ward and Evan have kids.

Track 2: Ward evan is having kids like every day a dream,

Track 2: not every day like and i

Track 2: have to assume based on the way dom

Track 2: like his character talks to his

Track 2: kids and like he understands like

Track 2: kids are kind of a nightmare sometimes like and like he

Track 2: understands the reality of like being a parent like

Track 2: the way he talks to his kids like it seems like he actually understands

Track 2: that and it's like that to him it's

Track 2: like yeah he's happy but like that comes with like reality it comes with like

Track 2: the harsh truths of being a parent like that's not you know it's not all just

Track 2: like gumdrops and you know rainbows and fucking wonderful shit it's but what's

Track 2: important is being with his kids yeah,

Track 2: For his kids' sake.

Track 1: I think that's why it's so important that he, that one of the thing that Cobb

Track 1: does throughout the movie and he sort of gets caught by Elliot Page's character

Track 1: is going into a dream, but it's actually his memories, which is sort of what

Track 1: he tells people not to do.

Track 1: It's like, you shouldn't go into your memories. You should only be going into a dream.

Track 1: And he has to keep hold of that memory because if he doesn't,

Track 1: could he ever actually achieve his dream of being back with his children again?

Track 1: And I think it goes back to the same, sort of the same concept is that he can't

Track 1: let go of those memories because if he does, will he even remember?

Track 1: Because he said he can't dream anymore. Will he even, I know that in the reality

Track 1: version of Cobb is the dream to go see his kids, but you might even lose that

Track 1: part of him if he can't even remember it anymore.

Track 2: He will also have to confront and come to terms with the fact that his wife

Track 2: was fundamentally acting from a completely selfish point of view to not leave

Track 2: the dream world originally.

Track 2: She would have gladly abandoned her children.

Track 2: And again, that's the point. That's what the difference between reality and the dream.

Track 2: The fact is that reality involves other people.

Track 2: And your connection with people matters. And she would have gladly let that

Track 2: go purely from a selfish perspective for her own ends. And she would have abandoned her children.

Track 2: And yeah, it's his fault that in the end, like she kills herself,

Track 2: but she already made that choice.

Track 2: She made that choice. And really in the end, like he, she made that choice long before he did.

Track 2: If that makes sense.

Track 3: It's almost like she became kind of addicted to it. Like those guys in Mombasa,

Track 3: they seem to be addicted to it as well.

Track 3: I don't think it's a coincidence that that kind of whole setting looks like

Track 3: an Orbeam den. I don't think that's a coincidence at all.

Track 2: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's not a coincidence.

Track 2: Including the trip sitter.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 4: Yeah.

Track 1: I can totally see that being the case, that she became addicted to this version

Track 1: of her, you know, quote unquote life, and she was unwilling to let it go,

Track 1: even if it meant never getting back to her children, which is,

Track 1: as you said, Bill, very selfish.

Track 1: I mean, she's choosing this dream for eternity over the lives of her kids.

Track 2: And her kids are in that dream, but they're not them.

Track 2: They're just idealistic projections of them, which is what I'm saying.

Track 2: Dom understands his kids are also kind of shits.

Track 2: When the one kid picks up the phone and he's like god you put your put your

Track 2: grandfather on like he understands like his kid like his kid can be a shit and

Track 2: it's like he still wants to go back to the kid that could sometimes be a shit.

Track 1: Well the like the the the thing that's also sort of revealed at the end too

Track 1: as part of i guess there's like sort of multiple reveals is that you learn that it was,

Track 1: dom that planted the idea that led to his wife killing herself and like it's

Track 1: also you never really, he never really ever in the movie comes to terms with

Track 1: that guilt, I don't think.

Track 3: No, he absolutely doesn't. He talks about it right towards the end of the film.

Track 3: I think the final dialogue scene between Marl and Cobb, he's talking about how

Track 3: guilty he feels, isn't he?

Track 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess he does feel guilt, but there's no...

Track 1: Resolution for that he sort of like lets mal go from this eternal dream state

Track 1: so he could finally come back to reality it's um.

Track 2: Because he realizes that he's doing the same thing she was doing and the only way that.

Track 4: It's not actually.

Track 2: Maul yeah.

Track 4: It's just idealistic projection yeah same as the kids.

Track 2: And the only way he can achieve his

Track 2: actual dream is by letting that go and

Track 2: i think part of it is also like admitting that like when he

Track 2: when we with elliot page's character

Track 2: like watched like her commit suicide i feel

Track 2: like that whole part is his character also

Track 2: kind of like coming to terms of the fact that like like i said like she made

Track 2: this choice long before he accepted her she made the choice to die and leave

Track 2: the kids long before that and i feel like that whole scene making him watch

Track 2: that again was him coming to terms with that those.

Track 3: Scenes as well are really interesting where we see maul like jump off the off

Track 3: the ledge and ariadne kind of lambasts um cob for going back inside his own

Track 3: memories which he's not meant to do it's kind of the point we know that we.

Track 2: Realize that.

Track 3: Cob is probably the most unhinged person of all of the crew but.

Track 2: Also the thing is as well yeah all the exposition that we've had until.

Track 3: Now which has been a lot has mostly been delivered from Cobb to Ariadne for us to listen to,

Track 3: um to be in ariadne's shoes so if cobb's telling us everything and he's the

Track 3: most unhinged person i mean how much of this is even correct what he's telling

Track 3: us is he could be the most unreliable narrator kind of in the world yeah.

Track 1: Yeah that's true yeah i think about that a lot of movies where you're getting

Track 1: the story from a person who is not a reliable source of information throughout the whole thing.

Track 3: Because in the star in paris when he's delivering all the when he's drawing

Track 3: the diagrams and we see the storefront blowing up and stuff like that he's giving

Track 3: all that exposition to ariadne and to us and we just buy it we're just lapping

Track 3: it up because we think this guy's on the ball he knows exactly what he's doing

Track 3: later on if he was telling us

Track 3: that we'll be thinking hang on a minute am i going to listen to this guy,

Track 3: i think no one's smart enough as a writer and a filmmaker to do that to tell

Track 3: us the information when we trust him and then have us realize hang on a minute

Track 3: do i trust him and at all So I think that's another angle as well.

Track 3: It's quite interesting.

Track 1: Yeah. Speaking of the exposition, like one thing that I forgot to mention that

Track 1: sometimes I've seen as like a critique of it is that because the movie is so

Track 1: complicated or like the whole technology and what's reality is you get a lot of exposition,

Track 1: but he does it in a way that really fits the narrative.

Track 1: I think just as you said, John, is he's giving you the information of how you

Track 1: construct this early on because if that had happened later or even at the beginning

Track 1: of the film it wouldn't have made any sense at all and you wouldn't have believed

Track 1: it so i don't think it's too much exposition because it's just a complex just

Track 1: like in the movie tenant which is even more complex than this.

Track 3: Yeah yeah i think that's probably the biggest stick that

Track 3: people use to kind of beat the film with a lot of

Track 3: northern films but this one as well the exposition i

Track 3: do get it but personally i kind of like all the exposition i

Track 3: mean but there is a lot to get through the first hour of the film is basically

Track 3: entirely exposition and then probably the rest of the film about a third of

Track 3: it is probably exposition I think it works for me because Nolan kind of understands

Track 3: that and he's smart enough to justify I think all the exposition by having it

Track 3: given to us in really engaging scenes either through,

Track 3: huge spectacle or great action not just engaging visuals

Track 3: that scene in Paris I'm talking about between Cobb and Ariadne

Track 3: is probably the best example because 10 minutes of Cobb just talking to Ariadne

Track 3: literally telling her what's going on telling us what's going on and how the

Track 3: whole dream world works but the visuals of them exploding fronts and the city

Track 3: falling in on itself and the smashing mirrors it's all just fantastic to look

Track 3: at so it kind of works I think yeah.

Track 4: I say yeah like it's a lot of exposition but like you kind of need it for a

Track 4: movie like this but it's also laundered extremely well through the fact that

Track 4: oh hey we got a new heist member we.

Track 3: Gotta train them.

Track 4: Up like that's how it's so that's how it's like flows so naturally.

Track 2: It's i feel like this comes down to like you know we have so many people like

Track 2: with the internet and like how like you know communicate like conversations

Track 2: about like media and everything it's like everyone's an expert but it's like

Track 2: people take like bits and pieces of things and then just run with it.

Track 2: Like people, people heard show don't tell, and then just ran with it.

Track 2: And like, don't look beyond it's like, yeah, show, don't tell,

Track 2: but also like, it's all contextual.

Track 2: Like, yes, he is telling us things here, but also like there is another layer to it.

Track 2: It's not just two people like, you know, talking heads, just like,

Track 2: it's not the Amazon war with the worlds where you know ice tea.

Track 3: Cube whichever i don't know ice.

Track 2: Cube is sitting in front of like a computer monitor telling.

Track 3: Us what he's doing like it's not that there's a difference.

Track 1: Which is really good like.

Track 2: But it's like he's yes he's telling us because there's certain ways like you're

Track 2: never gonna get this otherwise but he's also showing it at the same time.

Track 1: The showing yeah the like the scene as we we briefly kind of talked maybe we

Track 1: didn't really talk about the special effects but we talked about the practical

Track 1: effects too but the scene where they're at the cafe and they're still and everything

Track 1: is exploding around them looks so good and then you see the sort of the flipping

Track 1: of the road upside down and then.

Track 3: People often.

Track 1: Talk about the the bridge under the bridge mirror shot as like an an incredible

Track 1: you know piece of cinematography too.

Track 3: Yeah well that cafe explosion that was largely

Track 3: practical i know how they did that was that um they had these super high speed

Track 3: cameras that shot at like 1500 frames a second instead of the normal 24 frames

Track 3: a second and then they had air cannons propelling all the different debris out

Track 3: so then when they play it back and slow it down it's super detailed because

Track 3: they've got like 1500 frames a second instead of like 24 so he knows what he's doing here

Track 3: i think his rule is kind of i think i think whenever that he comes up with an

Track 3: idea for where they need special effects i think his first rule is can we do

Track 3: it practically if we can do it practically because it will look really really

Track 3: well if not like the falling city

Track 3: then we can look at cgi i think i think that's his rule it seems to be.

Track 1: I do do you know how he does the mirror shot where basically you know you can't

Track 1: see the camera i i was gonna watch a video about it but i just didn't get a chance to.

Track 3: That i think is cgi i think yeah it has to be right.

Track 1: Like there's no other way to to hide a you know.

Track 3: Yeah they're.

Track 1: Literally looking through the mirror and.

Track 3: Other the the penrose step shot you know when ariadne and

Track 3: arthur are on the steps and it kind of looks like a paradox that's all practical

Track 3: because they're wally fist of the dp he said that had to work down to like the

Track 3: millimeter the mathematics of exactly where the camera would go because if it

Track 3: was a millimeter off it couldn't fool your eyes so they spent like weeks and

Track 3: weeks and weeks working out the mathematics behind that shot and it's like a

Track 3: three or four second shot yeah.

Track 2: That's how they um that's all that for how they do the the moving camera force.

Track 3: Perspective where.

Track 2: They figured it out again but yeah like in lord of the rings too where you have the hobbits.

Track 1: And you know the they're on dollies.

Track 2: So basically this movie this movie couldn't have been made without peter.

Track 3: Jackson yeah yeah they did it first yeah that's right yeah yeah.

Track 1: I mean that's uh that's right paved the way but yeah no one does just incredible

Track 1: things when in like in most of his movies there's incredible effects that just

Track 1: you watch them and you're just kind of in awe that's why, you know,

Track 1: we said at the beginning is these will hold up because they just,

Track 1: He didn't do more than he needed to. He did, you know, camera tricks and speed

Track 1: tricks and these kind of things and just, yeah.

Track 3: Was it you, Bill, that was saying you hadn't seen this since you saw it at the

Track 3: theater? How did you think it did?

Track 3: Watching it in today's eyes then, how did you think it held up?

Track 2: It looks amazing. It's absolutely amazing. Like, it looks better than most movies that come out now.

Track 1: Yeah, that's...

Track 3: I mean, I agree, but I watched it, like, for the last 15 years almost nonstop,

Track 3: but I was interested to see what someone who hasn't watched it come and do it

Track 3: for the fresh eyes things.

Track 2: It's it's the same thing as like like

Track 2: we just did metropolis and metropolis is filled

Track 2: with practical effects that makes ridiculous things

Track 2: like impossible things that they things they could not have created in time

Track 2: look real and you watch metropolis now and because it's a practical effect you're

Track 2: like you it aged so well the practical effects in metropolis look as good as

Track 2: the practical effects in yeah because there is kind.

Track 3: Of that ongoing thing in cinema isn't it between practical and cgi effects and

Track 3: cgi tends to get tends to get a little bit looked on down on maybe by some people

Track 3: why do you think that is why do you think practicals looking as being like oh

Track 3: that's the way to go if you can cgi you shouldn't you shouldn't do it unless

Track 3: you have to why do you think that is.

Track 2: I i think it's because and like i said i am not the kind of person who like

Track 2: complains about cgi like i don't have anything against cgi um but i think,

Track 2: But you know what? If you look at, like, say, the original Jurassic Park and

Track 2: look at the CGI in the original Jurassic Park, what it comes,

Track 2: like, the CGI in the original Jurassic Park looks incredible still today.

Track 2: You put on Jurassic Park right now and watch it.

Track 3: It looks incredible.

Track 2: The Tyrannosaurus Rex, I mean, it looks incredible.

Track 2: And what i think it really boils down

Track 2: to is that as time has gone by and they've just leaned more heavily into it

Track 2: and they become more detached from reality they forgot how to like meld those

Track 2: two things together and they they rely too heavily on the perfection of cgi forgetting,

Track 2: that reality isn't perfect like there

Track 2: is a um a comic from years ago

Track 2: called red star and it was rendered it's

Track 2: a it's a comic that is largely mostly was

Track 2: created in 3d graphics and the artist talks about like what he would do is like

Track 2: and how it looks so good why it looks so good is he'd make it all and then he

Track 2: deliberately had imperfections back and that's why it felt real That's why it felt good.

Track 2: That's why it didn't feel so sterile and just created in a computer.

Track 2: And people seem to have...

Track 2: Forgotten reality is not perfect it doesn't flow like that.

Track 1: Can i add another thing i think you're completely right bill but the other thing that's

Track 1: happened i think with cgi and movies

Track 1: i mean we talked about before you know the inception he'd been planning inception

Track 1: for many years it took i think it i think it took i don't i didn't see how exactly

Track 1: how long it took the film but i imagine it was probably uh i could look it up

Track 1: but took a while so it started oh it started in 2009 in June.

Track 1: It took a long time. I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that a lot

Track 1: of movies before, you know, in the 90s, like Jurassic Park, is that they would spend a long time,

Track 1: perfecting the imperfect versions of those CGI's.

Track 1: They had people who were expert at their crafts.

Track 1: Now they make a movie and the studio wants to get that out to the theater right

Track 1: away so they can start making money back on the investment that they spent on all that CGI.

Track 1: And so it leads to people who were doing the CGI having to go more quickly.

Track 1: They now Disney just fired a bunch of their Marvel CGI people to use AI to do

Track 1: it and it'll probably look even worse.

Track 1: So I think part of it is just the lack of attention to people who are actually experts at that craft.

Track 1: And so now you movie makers who can still use practical effects I think is viewed

Track 1: as better just because of the degradation of,

Track 1: actual cgi you know like a marvel movie where everything is just a green screen

Track 1: and everything is added in post.

Track 3: Yeah it's.

Track 2: The volume yeah it's the volume.

Track 3: Not a green screen people do probably seem to respect the

Track 3: artistry of practical effects more like the original

Track 3: star wars you could pick anything but the original star wars where they're making like

Track 3: miniature models of the millennium falcon and tie fighters and all of

Track 3: this i think people just like the idea of that more all these

Track 3: model builders or painters matt painters or whatever it is and the idea of a

Track 3: load of people sitting in front of a computer i think maybe people like that

Track 3: idea more as well it's more romantic i think um but i think you're both right

Track 3: i think there's a lot of things go into it but i i'm a big fan of cgi but i

Track 3: like the balance nolan is my

Track 3: favorite effects director at the minute because he has that balance yeah.

Track 2: What i what i always think about in terms of this is if you're familiar with

Track 2: the the netflix dark crystal series um so,

Track 2: Have we all seen The Dark Crystal?

Track 1: Not for a long time, but yes.

Track 2: Oh, man. Ward. That's your assignment now, Ward.

Track 2: Fuck. Go watch The Dark Crystal. Go watch The Dark Crystal with Austin.

Track 2: Traumatize your child. Okay.

Track 2: So, for those who are not familiar with The Dark Crystal, it's a 1980 dark fantasy Muppet film.

Track 2: Everything is practical. It's all practical. It's fucking Muppets.

Track 2: It's either Muppets or people in costumes,

Track 2: but they're like Muppet costumes um I

Track 2: love the Dark Crystal um I grew

Track 2: up you know I was born to early 80s and you know almost you know very early

Track 2: 80s and like grew up with that kind of like dark fantasy that time um and Dark

Track 2: Crystal's a huge huge thing in

Track 2: my life and so the series the Dark Crystal series on Netflix Right it is,

Track 2: overwhelmingly practical effects but In certain places, they overlaid CGI over those,

Track 2: just, so, like, they took practical, and then instead of going whole hog or,

Track 2: like, relying totally on CGI,

Track 2: they did what so many successful people that use the two, just like Jurassic

Track 2: Park, where it's not all one or the other, it's a successful synthesis of the two.

Track 2: It is using the strengths and the weaknesses of both things to get the perfect thing.

Track 2: Lord of the Rings is the same way. It's hugely practical.

Track 2: And then they take little parts and they improve it just a little bit.

Track 3: Yeah did you hear what happened with the thing it was quite interesting with

Track 3: that because obviously the original the thing from like 1982 famously

Track 3: rob boteen crazy practical effects nearly killed

Track 3: them making them then they did the remake in 2011 i think it was and the idea

Track 3: originally was to do it all practically as well and have the creature practical

Track 3: but then when they did it and the studio started seeing it they were like no

Track 3: teenagers are going to laugh at this and had them do it all again cgi so and

Track 3: for the worse for me for me.

Track 1: Speaking of cgi or speaking of like practical effects and you mentioned lord of

Track 1: the rings is that they indy circus in an interview where he's

Track 1: making that new the hunt for golem or the search for golem i forget

Track 1: the new title of that new movie they're coming out with and

Track 1: he hunt for golem yes he said that he's going

Track 1: back and bringing the people who created the lord

Track 1: of the rings trilogy initially and where they made like

Track 1: giant sets of you know ministeria and

Track 1: they you know camera goes around so it actually looks

Track 1: like they don't do it all through cgi and i

Track 1: think that's like a smart move and he understands that people want

Track 1: to see that version and that type of

Track 1: movie where it's not reliant on to cgi and everything like they did with the

Track 1: hobbit trilogy where all of the people all the orcs and the people fighting

Track 1: were all cgi and it did not look as good as all of the actual actors playing

Track 1: in makeup in the lord of the ring so i like to think that more directors like,

Track 1: other than nolan we'll do that more and i hope that they are allowed to.

Track 3: Well that was wet at workshop wasn't it did the lord of the rings miniatures

Track 3: they had yeah they called them bigot chairs because they were so huge like yes

Track 3: that minister it was like 25 feet tall or something which meant jackson could

Track 3: get right in with his camera and it still looks great so those like great shots

Track 3: where you see it like sweeping across mordor and things like that um it's it's

Track 3: the miniatures are so detailed that he could do that and they just look fantastic

Track 3: but yeah that was a very much of end of miniature scale models,

Track 3: everything that you, every effect trick in the book, you brought Lord of the Rings, didn't you?

Track 2: And you know, there's a conversation to be had about CGI versus miniature and,

Track 2: or practical effects and how that shift has been driven by studios as a means

Track 2: of controlling workers, paying workers less and retaining profits on their ends.

Track 2: Like there is a huge, huge conversation to be had about

Track 2: that and how they have consolidated power and

Track 2: made it possible for them to further exploit workers because it is far easier

Track 2: to ship off and outsource digital work to places with less labor protections.

Track 2: Not that America's fucking great by any stretch of the imagination,

Track 2: but it is definitely, and then on top of that, because of that they have managed

Track 2: to kill so many of those skills.

Track 1: Well they the US studios are now filming things in England because they have

Track 1: you have healthcare and they don't have to pay that on top of the salaries they're

Track 1: already paying like in the United States.

Track 2: Yeah.

Track 1: Anyway this is in Canada.

Track 3: Canada yeah well there's a lot of controversy a few years ago with marvel wasn't

Track 3: there about how they were treating their cgi artists and things like that and

Track 3: underpinning them undercutting them because they could basically yep.

Track 1: Yeah no i know we straight a little bit from um inception we went into uh into

Track 1: that but but john was there any any last thing that you had that you we didn't

Track 1: bring up about inception any of your notes that we you want to hit before we

Track 1: left or final thoughts anything like that.

Track 3: There wasn't to be honest we've covered everything that i had so we've done

Track 3: a we've done quite well i think though i think the only note i have that we

Track 3: didn't cover did we cover it i don't think we did it was just uh on did we did

Track 3: i mention it on ariadne where her name came from did i mention that no it comes

Track 3: from greek mythology so ariadne in greek mythology was a princess who helped

Track 3: theseus escape from the labyrinth like the minotaur and all that so that's why

Track 3: it's just called that way she draws a labyrinth doesn't she on a bit of paper and.

Track 2: She helps him escape dams and.

Track 3: Reality i'm sorry end of conversation yeah yeah yeah yeah very nice i never thought about that.

Track 1: That's a good point. Yeah.

Track 3: Are you good yeah no.

Track 1: Yeah no but um do you you did mention we did mention your your show and your

Track 1: book at the beginning but you want to maybe tell people i think you already

Track 1: said that but you want to tell people when your book comes out unless it's already out.

Track 3: No it's on pre-sale at the minute this will be released yes on

Track 3: pre-sale at the minute it comes out officially in september so

Track 3: the okay so this will be out before that yeah so the title is

Track 3: all the right movies the stories and secrets behind the making of 25 iconic

Track 3: films bit of a mouthful yeah out in september so

Track 3: we kind of talk about 25 significant films

Track 3: we call them classics films that have kind of mattered in the course of

Track 3: the history of hollywood um and talk

Track 3: about how they were made um in kind of fun interesting

Track 3: ways we like to think and we've got interviews with a cast a crew member

Track 3: for each from each one as well um and yeah

Track 3: it's very much powered by the same kind of research that goes into the podcast because like

Track 3: i was saying our podcast has a very similar vibe to what we're talking about

Track 3: here and what you guys have we just go very big on kind of how things were done

Track 3: in the making of things that's how I kind of know some pointless trivia about

Track 3: certain films because we've done an episode on Inception a few years ago so

Track 3: it's kind of rocking my brains on that um but yeah if people are interested

Track 3: in that then please do uh check us out we're on all the major platforms Apple,

Track 3: Podcasts Spotify YouTube our website allthebrankmovies.com so have a look.

Track 1: Awesome John yeah and you can the same thing you can find Left the Projector

Track 1: wherever uh podcasts are available and John thank you so much for uh for coming on today thank.

Track 3: You for having me I've loved it Some really interesting takes.

Track 2: Thank you for joining us.

Track 4: Thank you.

Track 1: Excellent. Well, for Bill and Ward, we will catch everyone next time.