First, there was Bretton Woods. Then, globalized neoliberalism. On this episode of the Rhodes Center Podcast, Mark and his guests ask: what’s next? Is the ‘American order’ over? And if not, how will we know when it is? Mark talks with Ilene Grabel, Professor at the Josef Korbel School of International Studies at the University of Denver, and Jonathan Kirshner, political scientist at Boston College. Optimist, pessimist, or realist, this conversation will give you something to chew on.