About this episode:

Jordan Constantine, a safe systems practitioner and Dolly Parton fan, knows there are at least two sides to every story. A former foster youth who grew up in the UK, Jordan now makes his home in the US. He shares with us the emotional and profound journey of his gender transition, which he poetically refers to as "an unfolding."

About our guest:

Jordan’s work focuses on actualizing individual, team and system development to support quality improvement and system reform efforts in child welfare jurisdictions. Before joining the IPH center team Jordan spent over 20 years in child welfare practice and leadership, workforce development and quality improvement in the United States and United Kingdom and co-founded Affinità Consulting. Jordan has led practice development initiatives focused on safe, affirming care for LGBTQ2S+ youth and serves on the board for a Nashville non-profit, supporting its vision to foster a community where all people identifying as LGBTQ2S+ can connect and thrive. Jordan holds a Master’s Level Diploma in Social Work from Manchester Metropolitan University, United Kingdom and a Post-Qualifying Diploma in Child Welfare from Chichester University, United Kingdom. 

Where to find Jordan Constantine online:

• LinkedIn

Other Resources Mentioned:

• Safe Systems
• Gender Dysphoria
• Outing someone
• Cisgender definition
• Other important definitions
• An Edu-graphic about Gender
• Social, Legal & Medical Transitioning Process
• Grief & Loss in Transitioning
• Grieving Gendered Selves Blog Post
• How to Talk with Transgendered People about their experiences
• Tales of the City
• Logical family vs. biological family
• GLSEN
• Anti-Transgender and LQBTQ laws in TN
• LGBTQIA & Suicide
• Martha Graham's Quote on Creativity

Additional Resources:

• TCOM
• The Praed Foundation
• IPH Center

Become a Supporter:

If you like what you hear, please consider making a donation on our Patreon site!

Credits:

• All content Copyright ActuallyQuiteNice, Inc & TCOM Studios, 2022-2024
• Cover art by @jacksonfall
• Music by Ray Wyssman, The Simoleons, and Kristen Cerelli

Kristen Cerelli 0:00

The interviews in this podcast, all of which are ultimately uplifting stories of human transformation may contain general discussions of depression, trauma, violence, abuse, or cultural and racial bias. On this episode of shift shift Blum,

Jordan Constantine 0:17

I was with a group of friends and a trans friend of mine actually announced to my girlfriend at the time, you know, you do realize that Jordan is trans, right? And I just remember how indignant I was, and I felt, you know, it's like, no, I think I would know if I was and that just doesn't make sense. But I look back on that now. And Ben was seeing something in who I was. And, you know, he recognized something in me that I was yet to see.

Kristen Cerelli 0:45

Jordan Constantine knows there are at least two sides to every story. As a foster youth, he had a social worker. As an adult, he became a social worker. Born on the other side of the pond, he now chooses to make the US his home, and though assigned female at birth, today, he shares with us his story of gender transition. I'm Kristen Cerelli. And you're listening to shift shift bloom, a podcast about how people change. shift shift Bloom

Tim Fall 1:33

is a new podcast, and for now, a small podcast. And we're thankful that you found us. In addition to the fascinating interviews in our regular episodes, we thought you might like to know about our bonus episodes, featuring host Kristen Cerelli and Dr. John Lyons in conversation about each guests journey. If you already know John Lyons, then you know that his insight, his curiosity, his humor, shed a new light on almost any subject. If you haven't met John, well, you're in for a treat. Bonus episodes are available to our Patreon supporters for as little as $3 a month. At higher levels. Patreon subscribers receive merchandise offers and other ways to interact with the comms first podcast, including the opportunity for you or your company to be thanked at the end of every episode. Please visit us@patreon.com forward slash shift to shift.

Kristen Cerelli 2:40

My guest today is Jordan Constantine, who is the Senior Policy Analyst and safe systems practitioner at the Center for Innovation and Population Health at the University of Kentucky. Welcome, Jordan,

Jordan Constantine 2:51

and Kristin.

Kristen Cerelli 2:54

So I just rattled off a whole bunch of job titles. But I know there's so much more to you than that. So in your own words, just tell me a little bit about yourself.

Jordan Constantine 3:04

Sure. So yep. You You talked a little bit about what I do. So the work I do with the F center and with the SE Systems team is honestly a huge part of my life, actually. And it's something that's become really important to me. But yeah, I am, as you can tell, not originally from the US. I grew up in the UK, I moved here seven years ago now, I live just outside Nashville, with my dog who is very important to me. I'm sure he'll show up in this podcast at some point as well today. I hope so. Yeah. I'm looking forward to talking more with you. Yeah, me

Kristen Cerelli 3:41

too, likewise. So I guess, you know, John, and I decided we want to do this podcast. And we put out this call to people in our circles, professional and personal and we say, who wants to talk about change and personal changes they've gone through. And so I wonder when you take in this offer for the first time, you know, where does your mind go? And what does that even mean? What does change mean to you? And how has change impacted your life?

Jordan Constantine 4:11

Yeah, you know, the email came out from John Wright. You know, in many ways, it kind of spoke to me initially, and I had that moment of, oh, this is something I'd really like to talk about. And then had that moment of, but do I really want to do that on a podcast in a very public way. But I think for me, you know, people's stories are so central to the work that I do and that we do in the center. We do system improvement work within our team. And, you know, we focus on creating change within child welfare agencies. And, you know, I recognize the challenges that are inherent in that so often, and it connects with me personally, too. I think as somebody who has experienced, you know, numerous changes in my own life in a lot of different ways. You know, I have my own story to tell about that change. And I think when we have that opportunity to share our stories and hear other people's stories, you know, some ways they resonate with us. And maybe there's something in what I have to share with you today that will resonate for somebody else. Who knows the ripples that come from the words we put out into the world, right?

Kristen Cerelli 5:17

So I think I'm stopped a little because I'm thinking about you being stopped. And the first thing that you said to me was, how personal Do you want me to get? And I didn't know why you are asking that question. And I certainly knew that my answer was as personal as you want to get. And so let's, let's talk about the big change you and I know we're here to talk about?

Jordan Constantine 5:45

Sure. The big change, I think, for me, that immediately comes to mind is related to my gender identity. So I identify as a transgender man. And, you know, that process of change, for me, has been hugely significant in my life. And the reason for my question to you about how personal Do you want this to be is, I think it's really representative of some of the uncertainty I still carry and hold within me about how to share that information, when it's okay to share it, what it means to share it, how it might be received. So yeah, this this process of, you know, being willing to talk about that aspect. And that part of my story and identity has been really helpful for me in terms of thinking about, you know, some of those barriers, some of those things that get in the way, for me, I'm very fortunate in many areas of my life, including in my work in life to, you know, work with people who are affirming of who I am and accepting of who I am. But that's not necessarily the case. And the reality for a lot of trans people being able to talk about this and tell that part of my story feels important. The timing of that feels right for me to do that, too.

Kristen Cerelli 6:57

Yeah, I'm glad that you are tuned into the idea of timing and just sort of taking an opportunity. And I hope it leads to you talking about it more. But I want you to take me back to when did you know that you were transgender? And what was the beginning? Like for you?

Jordan Constantine 7:18

Wow. I'm curious in this story that you've just told you mentioned, the your friend, Ben, you know, sort of called you out. And and then this young man that you were working with misgendered? You so what are the feelings that come up when you when you think about those moments? And and I'm wondering if those were triggers for you in any way were precipitating events that moved you in the direction that maybe you wouldn't have moved towards so quickly?

I think possibly, I think certainly that conversation with Ben and just, you know, the other thing that I think it's important to say is outing somebody is never okay, right. So, you know, even if they don't know that yet themselves, that's not necessarily the best thing to do. So, you know, I wouldn't advocate that approach in any way, which was partly part of my shock, I think, when it happened, but it certainly planted a seed within me to question, what is it that he's seen in me, that has him think that and I think, you know, at the point I made the decision to come out, kind of put that stake in the ground and say, Okay, I think that I'm transgender, I think that's what this is, this feeling is, you know, it was really precipitated by, you know, challenging events, right. You know, I, I just ended a long term relationship, which just wasn't working. And I think, coming through the process of grieving that relationship, and the losses in that, and thinking about the future, and how did I see myself in future relationships? And what might that look like? I had this overwhelming sense that there was something that I needed to change before I entered another relationship, you know, so really reflecting on what wasn't working about that, for me, I think was a bit of a catalyst to and, and the change that I experienced in those moments. I mean, I think there's something incredibly liberating and also terrifying. There's, there's a real vulnerability in those moments, I think, but also an authenticity that comes with that that comes through. And I think I often find that in those challenging moments, is that my sense of self is actually stronger in those moments. And when I can clear out the white noise and really listening. I often just innately know what I need to do next. And that was really how the process felt. So I talked about it as an unfolding, you know, you may talk to other trans people who would tell you that they very clearly knew and knew for a long time and that just, you know, that wasn't my variants,

do you think having the wherewithal, or presence of mind or bravery to ask questions is a critical piece of it? Because not for everyone? Is it true? Let me let me try that. Again. It is not true for everyone, that there's just a deep, unshakable knowing. I feel like, even in the way you reflect now, there's such a sense of time, and asking and waiting to get an answer. Like you said, the white noise kind of has to settle has to diminish?

I think, you know, I think asking those questions of myself is for sure, a piece of that, and doing that from a place of real curiosity. But also, I think, acceptance, I don't know why the word acceptance is coming to mind now so strongly, but it really is. So it's less about, you know, discovering something about myself, it was always there to be found. It was just, you know, what, what are the conditions need to be what needs to be different, or in place for me to create the space for that acceptance of what's there and to let that come through? And, you know, we started at the beginning of this conversation with me talking about my doubts about whether this is something that it's okay to share, or is it too much to share? I think, you know, some of that doubt was in the way of that acceptance of myself. And, you know, I'd go further than doubt to say that, you know, it's squarely rooted in shame to, and I don't think we talk enough about shame. And you know, how powerful that is as an emotion in terms of, you know, how we come forward in the world. And, you know, part of the acceptance at that time was not clearly of, you know, the gender identified with, but almost an acceptance of not fully knowing, but being willing to take the next step without knowing what the path was in front of me, but just trusting it was going to emerge when I took that step. I think a lot of the acceptance was about being willing to sit in the discomfort of not knowing and explore it,

had something prepared you for that, because that is not, I think, a skill that we are taught or even encouraged to develop in the Western world. I mean, it's more, it's coming into its own now, but most people cannot sit in not knowing and the discomfort that that brings up for very long at all.

Yeah. And to be clear, neither can I. So it's not it's not a place that I choose to go often. But I think having lived through periods of time where I didn't have much hope for my future. I think it's given me the ability to ask myself those questions, be willing to take that next uncomfortable step. I had a great teacher in that as well. You know, my, my foster mom, who really spent a lot of time with me, and particularly through my early 20s, where I was in a fairly significant amount of crisis and, you know, spent a lot of time in mental health services and really didn't know how my life was gonna look. You know, I think she really infused a lot of that wisdom to me at that time. And it certainly stayed with me. I'm not somebody that shies away from hard conversations or uncomfortable situations. I think I have an understanding that there's always learning in those for me, and there's a level of trust in that process. Now. I think I know now that it's going to be okay, it's taken me 251 To get here, but I think now I can reassure myself that you're going to be okay. Yeah,

I envy people who get there before the midlife. I feel like I'm on your team with that, that it's yeah, it's we're about the same age. And it's only now that I, I have that knowing in the storm that the storm will end.

Yeah. Well, and the other thing, I think I'd say on that it's just culturally as well, you know, there's this sense that discomfort is something to be avoided at all costs. And, you know, we we miss out on opportunities for growth and learning in that. Yeah,

it takes me though, right back to your original apprehension, let's say about how much to share and when it's appropriate, and that perhaps having to talk about yourself in a way that maybe a cisgender person does not have to ever really talk about themselves. Right isn't isn't inherently uncomfortable, and yet necessary.

Yeah. And I think, you know, it speaks to You know, the way our society our cultures are structured, right? So we live in very kind of heteronormative sis normative cultures. And for those of you listening to this that may not know what cisgender means, I'm going to clarify because I think, you know, language is important.

Language is important, and it's changing. And some people might not even be aware that it's changing, especially around gender and identity and sexuality. I was so glad Jordan jumped in and defined things for us, because there's no way I could have done it with as much ease and precision and simplicity as he did, you're gonna want to check out the show notes for more guidance on how to get educated about this stuff. But for now, listen up.

Cisgender essentially means that your gender identity is aligned with the sex that you are aligned with at birth. So that would mean that if you identify as female, and you were assigned female gender at birth, that you are cisgender. And for somebody who's transgender, you know, my gender identity didn't align with the gender I was assigned at birth. Hence, I'm transgender, this sense of othering is such a prominent theme, right? So we have our kind of dominant culture, whatever that is, you know, whether that's a white dominant culture, or sis normative, dominant culture, and anyone who lives outside of that is othered, in so many senses, and it's always incredibly affirming, to me, when I hear people introduce themselves, or talk about their identity, you know, as a cisgender person, it's like, we all have a gender identity, it's not unique to those of us who identify as trans or gender diverse. We all have a gender identity, we all have a sexual orientation. But there's this onus on people who identify outside of that expected norm to talk about theirs, rather than it being something that collectively in community, we all share and talk about, you know, it still comes up for me now, when I think about pronouns, which are just one of the easiest ways to affirm somebody who is not cisgender. And it's interesting to me, you know, in the work that I do, there are sometimes meetings I go to and with particular child welfare jurisdictions where everybody comes onto those calls, and they introduce their name, and they introduce their pronouns, and it's an accepted practice. And as a transgender person, that's hugely affirming to me, just to know immediately communicates to me that I'm in a space where pronouns are respected and validated, and somebody's gender identity is validated, and, you know, important. And there are other settings where people don't introduce themselves with their pronouns. And so neither do I. So one of my kind of personal challenges is, when do I step forward and use my pronouns in a room where other people aren't as a way to communicate, just, you know, a different way of approaching identity and belonging.

And I'm curious, as you're talking about, pronouns, for me, the practice came out of being a university professor and sort of actually being led, I think, in a lot of ways by the students who led the conversation or lead by saying my pronouns, are they them? I'm curious if there are other simple practices, that maybe not everybody listening knows about that, that you could share in terms of creating spaces that are inclusive,

I think, asking so you know, that practice of asking somebody, their, their pronouns, and not just because we have a suspicion that they may have a gender identity, that's not cisgender. But just as a matter of course, in practice, how do you like to be referred to, you know, we do it with names, without really thinking about it, right. And names are hugely important too. But, you know, we can add pronouns into that very easily. You know, there are there are simple ways to communicate that also, that communicate that it's a safe space, whether that's having some kind of marker, you know, whether it's a rainbow sticker on your notebook, or just some kind of visual marker that communicates ally ship, with the LGBTQ community, you know, those things are huge, being able to see myself in those spaces in some way or another. And sometimes that's by somebody else's courage and saying, actually, this is how I identify and bringing that into the room. That almost in a sense, gives me permission to do the same. Actually, this is who I am. This is a part of me that you may not have known about. And, you know, this is an important part of me, again, opens up space potentially for somebody else to come forward and say actually, I relate to that experience.

So let's go back to that the experience of making a transition and as much as you are willing to share, talk about some of those, I think you said this is now a process that began about 10 years ago, in 2011. So talk about some of those physical, hormonal surgical changes that you have gone through.

Yeah. So it's interesting, because when you sent the questions across that we were going to talk about Kristen, and, you know, I saw this question. And I had an immediate reaction to that, right. And I was like, I want that question to come out. And actually, it was in a conversation with my partner where I was talking about, and I said, What's my resistance around this? And when I really started to dig in and get curious about, you know, what my resistance was? I really saw it as an opportunity to talk about that. So I think it's an important question to ask. So I guess what I want to say first, in response to that, is that for a lot of trans people, you know, when when someone finds out that you're trans, or you share that with them, the immediate go to is to want to understand the kind of physical and medical changes, right, that occurred. So people often have those curious questions about hormones about surgery. And it's, it's been challenging to navigate that sometimes, because, you know, the other thing that it's important for me to say is I identify as a transgender male. Now that identity communicates something for me, because it communicates the fact that yes, my gender expression is male. But my gender identity is actually much more than that. So the trans part of that identity is important to me, because I still claim very much that female aspect of my identity, that's not the case for all trans people, some trans people will want to transition and not ever refer to their gender assigned at birth, or that experience. That's not the case for me. So there's this almost dilemma sometimes about do I share this information? Because maybe it will help to educate somebody or help them understand something about being trans or transitioning. And yet at the same time, in what other situation? Would we ask a bold question about somebody's genitalia and medical procedures in that way? Right. It's, it's a dilemma. But my partner who's particularly wise pointed out to me that this was a great opportunity to talk exactly about that issue. So I think, you know, it's important to say that, for most trans people, those things are sometimes off limits as a conversation, I think it's important to know that if you're talking to a trans person, really let them lead the conversation in terms of what they want to share, and not always focusing just on those medical aspects of transition. So with all that said, Kristin, and thank you for giving me the space to say that

I wanted to ask you if you would, too, because you defined it for the listeners. Before you you helped us define transgender and cisgender. Will you just delineate gender expression and gender identity? As you as you see it?

Absolutely. And I'm glad you asked, because it's an important distinction.

It's awesome that that Jordan is taking this time out to educate us, but it shouldn't be his job. It should be our, our own self motivation. He's encouraging people to to ask and to let trans people lead. But the other important thing for people to remember is just like with issues of race, it is it is on the the privileged class, so to speak, to educate themselves, it's on the the people with the power the cisgender people to also seek out information on their own and, and bring themselves up to speed and not always rely on the trans man sitting across from them to hold their hand through everything. It's On Us. It's On me the cisgender host to learn more and not to expect that he's going to teach me everything. There are a lot of ways to learn that, that don't that don't put the onus on the wrong people.

So gender identity for me is, you know, the gender that I identify with as a my gender expression is how I express my gender externally. So if you've seen me, you'll know that my gender expression is predominantly male. If you walked past me in the street, you would read my gender as male, most likely, and my gender identity is a little more complex. It's not like I made the change and it's done right. It's still evolving even now. And what I started to come to realize was that the female aspects of my identity are still all really important to me, I still think in a very female oriented way, I still identify as female in some ways and in certain settings, which, you know, initially, when I started to recognize that there was almost a sense of panic, it's like, did I make the right decision? Am I transgender? What does this mean? Well, actually, it just means that my identity is more fluid than the binary, male or female. So, you know, for the most part, I think my gender identity is is male, but it's, it's not that cut and dry. It's like the pendulum swung from female to male, and then kind of just won back a little. And somehow, kind of, you know, it's settled where it settles.

Yeah. And hearing that, too, I think it it's liberating to even hear, and to be reminded that it is a spectrum and that we're not locked in, none of us are locked in, and that we're always changing. Right? And that we shouldn't, there should not be whatever we can do to reduce or eliminate shame around that. That's important. Yeah, I think I think I think the younger generation is way ahead of, in some ways on that on that topic on that spectrum, too. So it's interesting to hear their perspective and, and see the way how fierce they are about claiming this the whole spectrum of expression and identity.

I think, yeah, you're absolutely right. I think, you know, I'm continually inspired by our younger generations, right, who just have a different perspective, really, on binary gender, they just don't identify with binary gender in the same way, and a different level of acceptance of, you know, the range of identities that fall within that, not just in terms of gender identity, but also in terms of sexual orientation, which is the other important thing to know, I think gender identity often gets conflated with sexual orientation. They're distinctly different. The quick and easy way to remember that is my gender identity is who I go to bed as my sexual orientation is who I go to bed with, right? They're different, uniquely different.

Let's, let's go back to the question you wanted to throw out and, or you were resistant to and let's talk, share what you want to share.

So when I think about, you know, I think about the process of transition, and there is, you know, there are different aspects to transition. So there's a social transition that you know, as a trans person you undertake. So, for me, I completed my medical transition in the UK. So that's an important thing to note, because access to treatment is, is somewhat different there. It's more accessible and less restricted by financial resource in the way that it is here. But with that said, there's still a process and a gatekeeping process. And one of the requirements is for you to live according to your gender identity for a period of two years, prior to undertaking any kind of medical transition. And, you know, that period of time, I think, presents incredible challenges for trans people, particularly for trans women. So there's a social aspect of transitioning. So things like changing my driver's license, and changing my bank accounts and coming out at work and changing my pronouns. And in my name, although I actually changed my name. Long before that, interestingly. So you, we talked earlier about some of those small events that were maybe slight catalysts on this path. Anyhow, there's the social aspect of transition. And then there's the medical aspect, too, but there are choices to make about hormones about surgery. And it looks different for every trans person, there are transgender people who choose not to medically transition at all. And that does not in any way mean that their identity as a trans person is diminished from somebody who's had surgery and or chosen to take hormones. So, you know, I did choose to medically transition. So I take hormones, and I had some surgery. And you know, that really, for me was about bringing my physicality, my physicality and my body in alignment with my identity. There was some surprises in that process to actually thinking about this theme of change, right? I think you asked at the beginning about what it means to me. And I was like, gosh, you know, sometimes I'm choosing change and those kind of changes can feel invigorating, right? They feel energizing, I'm all in I want what I'm going for. And there are other times when change comes, you know, maybe it's something that's required of us or enforced on us or it's an unexpected consequence. So, you know, for me, one of the things I experienced after I had chest surgery was, you know, a real sense of grief and loss, which was hugely unexpected. I didn't see that coming at all. And that was a change I hadn't anticipated. Did it mean, I'd made the wrong decision? It didn't. But I needed to embrace that as a part of that whole process.

How? How long did that last that grieving process?

A couple of weeks, a month, maybe, I think, you know, the period post surgery is, you have an awful lot of time to reflect, because there's not much else you can do. So yeah, probably within the first month, and then once, you know, I started to heal, and, you know, I was experiencing how my body felt, then post surgery. I think, you know, that shifted and changed. And then, you know, what I experienced was an immense sense of liberation. My body now makes sense to me in a way that it that it didn't before. And it also opened up new possibilities, right. So you know, there are things that you wouldn't necessarily think about for a trans person. But you know, for somebody who's transitioning from female to male, often, they will bind their chest, right, because part of gender dysphoria is, you know, that significant discomfort with a body that's not aligned, and having had that experience of covering, hiding, working around my physicality in that way, to then have the freedom to not do that anymore. You know, the first time I took my shirt off on a beach was like this hugely life affirming moment, which to anyone else, you know, male identified on that beach was just something they do on a daily basis. Right. But to me, it was, you know, experiencing being in the world in a wholly new way. But I think there are all kinds of losses within transition that we don't anticipate. Some of the biggest losses for me came around that social transition, having spent most of my life around women relating to women, women are who I'm most comfortable around, they make sense to me, I still relate, you know, in that way, myself a lot of the time. And, you know, as I started to physically present as more male, women's reactions to me changed. And there was a moment where I was in a line at the post office. And it was a huge line, it was coming up to Christmas. And I just started a conversation with a woman who was in line next to me, and I didn't think anything of it. And then I noticed her reaction to me. And I realized that socially, the game had changed for me, me doing that, as a male, like, what she has read as a male identified person had a different connotation for her than if I was just another woman alongside her in that line in the post office. And I think those are some of the things that it's been hardest to come to terms with. There are moments when I'm like, I just want to tell people because I just want to be able to make sense of it. So yeah, though, those kind of losses have have been felt for sure. And, you know, it happened recently, I was at the pool with my partner. And in my neighborhood, and this, there's this little girl who's often there. And I'm always struck by she has some mobility issues. But when I see her in the water, she's able to splash around as She giggles at the top of a voice, like it's just an utter joy to see her in the pool on that float. Anyway, she was in the pool, she was playing with some toys. And I saw her looking around and she kind of started to look a bit distressed like she'd lost something. And her mom's on the other side of the pool. And I went to kind of get up and help her and I stopped myself. Because what I experienced now being read as male in our world, is that there is less safety in me going and helping that young girl than there would be for my partner. I said, Okay, can you go help her and see what she needs and her dollar got gone up the drain in the pool, and she needed help to get it out. And it comes from people not being comfortable with my gender identity, and maybe not being comfortable with that around their kids.

I guess I wonder. Yeah, do moments like that? Are they dissonant for you? Is there a part of you that stops you from going in extending toward towards that that child and nd is that? You know, internally? Is that? Is that like a dissonance for you?

Yeah, I think absolutely. It's me that stops that. I think you know, inevitably I've internalized some of those reactions that I've had in the past. So that shame has become very internalized for me, I think and yeah, I don't want to do something that will make someone else feel uncomfortable or question who I am, especially in a setting like at the pool, right, where my chest scars are visible. And, you know, it may raise questions about who I am. Yeah, I stopped myself. Sure, for sure. So some of it is around a different experience moving through the world in a male identified way. And some of it does relate to being transgender and how that might be perceived. It's, it's, yeah, there's some complexity around it.

It's very, it's very interesting. I'm curious, because I trained as an actor, and I worked as an actor for many years. And I'm curious about those very physical changes, especially changes to the voice, and the body and how you hold them. I've always found as an actor in class on stage, and especially as a teacher, that it's It's the voice and movement classes that bring up the most confrontation with one's identity and a confrontation with where our blocks are, what's not free, what wants to be freed? And I'm just curious how having a new voice, those new vibrations run through you, what's that? Like to lean into that a little bit? If you would?

Yeah, voice was interesting, because I remember the point at which it started breaking, going through, you know, a second adolescence and puberty essentially, in your 40s. It's, it's an interesting experience, right? So yeah, I remember when my voice kind of started to change. I think one of my sadnesses is I really can't see now. I used to be able to, but I've never found a pitch since my voice changed. So yeah, it's, it's definitely different. I think. It sits differently in me too. And, you know, I wonder how much of that is the physical change, and how much of that is just really, the way I inhabit myself differently. Now, in many ways, I've always been a little bit at war with my body in different ways. And, you know, earlier in my life, I used to weigh over two 300 pounds in my early 20s. So, you know, I always knew,

I knew this is a five part episode, Jordan.

I've always hidden in some ways, in different ways, but you know, certainly around my body, for sure. And I think I felt lost in my own body a lot of the time, too. So you know, my posture used to be very stooped, and kind of hunched over and also just not wanting to lift my head up in the world. So I think that changed, you know, I saw that physical change happen, my shoulders sit for further back now, I hold myself differently, slightly. It's interesting, isn't it? Right? How that happens around gender, too. And I think some of that is, you know, related to hormones, and certainly surgery, right? I now hold myself differently, because there's less to hide. But yeah, the physical changes have been an interesting journey. I was very disappointed that I didn't get more facial hair.

Do you think when you started on this journey of transitioning gender, was there something guiding you that was like, a better life, a happier life? A more fulfilling life, a more authentic life? Was there sort of one pillar that you were moving towards?

Really, it came down to, you know, if, if I'm going to move forward in my life and be open to having, you know, another intimate relationship, I need to be able to be in that relationship in a way that's truly authentic to who I am. That was the kind of kernel of thought now. I'm not sure I had the vision of who that was, or what that look like. But I knew it wasn't who I was in that moment. I didn't have a clear vision for what it was, but I knew it was gonna be more aligned than how it would be.

Do you have superpowers in relationships now? Because you bring such a unique perspective? No,

I mean, you'd have to ask the people I'm in relationship with but no, I don't think so. I think I think of it my superpower is my accent. But I don't know about in relationships. I mean, yes, it gives me a unique perspective, right. And I think it's only fair to say that the people who are in relationship with me, it changes their perspective, probably but it also changes the perspective of people around them. You know, my partner is a cisgender female So to most of the world, most of the time, we look like a strange double. So there are constant decisions to be made in that if I choose to disclose, disclose, I don't know why I'm using the word disclose. It's so interesting, because I don't usually use that terminology. But if I choose to share my gender identity with somebody, then I immediately in a sense out her sexual orientation. And likewise, if she chooses to share her sexual orientation with somebody, in turn, you know, she's she's kind of outing my gender identity. So it's this dance that we do regularly. And the people I'm in relationship with have a different experience of life, having a trans person in their in their world, for sure. But I don't know about superpower. I'm really pretty ordinary. on many levels,

I would disagree. You mentioned your foster mom, who else has been supportive, and maybe even inspirational throughout your life?

I mean, I'm fortunate I have some very solid people in my life, for sure. I think it was answered more than I'm a big fan of the Tales of the City books. You know, when I say I make some of these references, and I'm like, yeah, maybe I didn't know something earlier than I thought I did. Anyway, he references this idea of logical family, rather than biological family. And so I have, I have an amazing logical family that's made up of close friends, some of whom are, across the pond, have a brother and sister too. And you know, my foster sister is also queer and married to an American woman. So there's, there's a level of diversity in that family that is affirming. And then, you know, over here, my partner is someone who inspires me on a daily basis. She lives in loves very fiercely, and is always telling people to choose their own life. And she lives that out. And, you know, I'm fortunate to work with the people I work with their people who definitely inspire me to be better in my work, who, you know, fully accept me as I am. And, you know, I'm lucky, very fortunate to have that experience with my team at the center. I've been fortunate to do work on the board of glisten here in Tennessee, and working with those young people, those LGBTQ youth who are just out there fully in themselves, you know, expressing themselves advocating for themselves, their peers, you know, for change, you're probably aware of a lot of the anti LGBT and particularly anti trans legislation that has recently come into effect in Tennessee. And you know, this group of kids was arranged, we're arranging phone banks to call representatives and you know, advocate. And I think that energy and their authenticity right there kind of just, it blows me away every time I'm kind of in their company and around them.

I want to know what you think the Glisson kids would say to you, in terms of this question that kept arising about how much to share when to share what to share? What's appropriate, like, what, what would the youth say to that?

That's a great question. I think they probably tell me to share what I wanted to share. You know, those kids, they have a sense of agency of their own. And, you know, they have that sense of agency, even in school environments, where they're not affirmed where they face, you know, challenges to their identity and who they are, I think, sometimes less so from their peers, but certainly within within those environments, for sure. And I think they probably told me to trust myself. And I think what most trans people want, simply is to be seen, accepted and loved, for who they are not for it to be something exceptional, not for it to be something to be gotten over or worked around, but just for it to be a facet of who they are. And for it to be something that can just be spoken without shame, fear. You know, for a lot of trans people, that translates into a lack of safety to a real fear about am I safe in this setting. And in this situation? And I think, you know, we have to acknowledge that you only have to kind of look at the numbers of trans people that, you know, are killed each year. You know, it's a significant number.

What would you say, you know, talking about safety and maybe safety, even just starting in one circle when one decides to transition decides to share that with ones close to them. What would you say to let's say, the parents of a trans child other team who are having trouble navigating that situation?

First and foremost, believe them. And thank them for trusting you with that information. If they're sharing that with you, it's because you're a trusted adult to them. And that's a privileged position to be in. And I know for a lot of parents, it's not an easy journey, that can be a lot of fear, a lot of concern that goes alongside that. But the most powerful thing we can do for any LGBTQ young person, adult is a firm who they are, you know, having a parent who is affirming makes a significant difference, we know that, you know, over half of all transgender kids will attempt suicide. But we also know that having affirming parents or caregivers, can reduce that risk of suicide by almost the same percentage. So it's just under 50%, I believe. So, you know, I used to say this when I was in training, but using some of these pronouns and chosen name is is effectively suicide prevention. Right? When you think of it in those terms, so believe them, I think, understand that they may not have all the answers you need, and that their sense of identity may also change. And the truth is identity evolves, right. I mean, gosh, it took me 241, to figure it out. Because, you know, I just didn't know what I didn't know. So I think give them space to explore that, you know, support them to do that freely.

I love what you said, and I just really want to pull that out about having gratitude for the privilege of being the trusted adult, it's easier said than done. But to be able to stay in that mind space as you accompany someone through any change. Because changes are generally bumpy. They're so rarely smooth, and to just be able to stay in that place of gratitude. And, yeah, and privilege is really beautiful.

Yeah, as a parent, I can't imagine how hard that is to as well. You know, I think innately as a parent, the instinct is to, you know, make things Okay, right, come up with solutions to find solutions to you know, and I think with this kind of journey, in terms of identity and who we are, that has to come from the person, right, you have to let them lead and let them be the expert in that in so many ways. And I can only imagine as a parent in that situation, how challenging that must feel alongside you know, those concerns about safety, and you know, how that child is going to be perceived by the rest of the world? Even if the home is affirming? What does that mean, when they go to school? What does it mean and all those other environments?

Yeah, that tendency to fix which then we internalize I think as as children of fixers, just sort of being able to do away with that idea that there is anything to fix really, right? Would help so much, you just brought up this truth that you might be accepted in the home, when you come out, but then there's the rest of the world to deal with? How would you like to see the world approach conversations around gender identity and gender expression,

from a place of knowing and acceptance and understanding that, you know, there is more diversity than just the binary genders that were perhaps, you know, conditioned to and, and used to seeing, you know, gender identity is one part of who we are. And, you know, for some of us, it's a larger part, but you know, really, it's just one facet of who we are. And, you know, I think for it just to be integral in that way, rather than this kind of element that is pulled out and then focused on and kind of judged in in certain way.

I want to know if, with all the changes that you've been through in your life, if there are one or two things that have always remained the same, or that are unchangeable.

Gosh, I'm still an overthinker. That's not changed. But you know, that sense of who I am, I think, I'd say not only has it not changed, but actually it's come to the fore more. I feel as though now I know who I am in a clearer way than perhaps they ever have before. I'm now living, you know, a life that makes sense to me. Yes. And I think that's the part I've been seeking for as long as I can remember, probably since seven years old, right? When will I get to that point where I feel at peace, like the just, I'm in a place where I feel I belong. And I belong to myself also, you know, and I think that's the place I'm in. Now, increasingly, not to say that doesn't get challenged at times. But that's emerged more. So as a result of all the changes. It's always been there. It's just now I have the space to see it, and access that in a different way. There's a resoluteness about who I am, there's this kind of thread that now I look back, you know, if I look back at my whole life that has pulled me forwards that I think there's been times where I've been pulling that thread behind me, dragging it along. And there's other been other times when I've been kind of holding on to it and letting it pull me forward. Maybe resolute resilience is a better word for that. But there's just been this sense of knowing that I needed to keep going. That's

beautiful. I love that metaphor and that image of the thread and when it's pulling you and when you're pulling it. And I love what you said about belonging to yourself, and belonging to your community. I would imagine that's just core to the human experience to the desire to belong fully to oneself.

Yeah. And connectedness

seems like a like it could be a lifelong process. Yes. Connection. Yeah, for sure. I have a bunch of rapid fire questions I want to ask you, so don't overthink. Okay. So this is a fill in the blank. Change requires blank.

vulnerability,

what is one thing, big or small that you would like to see change in the world?

Acceptance on every level, hmm.

What is one thing big or small that you hope never changes? Hope? What is one small or superficial thing that you would change about yourself?

The wrinkles around my eyes. Mm hmm. Okay. Yeah. We didn't even talk about the aging process. That's a whole other episode. Kristen.

It is a whole other episode.

It is it's humbling. Let me tell you that.

I know. I didn't think I would struggle with it to be quite honest. And it's a lot harder than I thought.

So it kind of crept up on me too. So yeah.

What does your next big change look like? And feel free to be aspirational? In your answer?

Not making any more big changes? That's a great answer. And Rite Aid. Yeah, as I say that, I know that next year, I'm going to be moving. So you know, I mean, more change, right? It's a constant process.

Are you a change maker? A change embracer? Or a change resistor?

All three hands down? All three? I can't choose one.

Yeah. That's, that's how some of us are strong. Right? I'm curious about something. There's this Martha Graham quote that lots of performers know. And she talks about us as artists, but I think it applies to all humans being channels for the artistic process to come through. And that if we block the channel, the expression doesn't ever get out into the world. And I wonder if you feel now like you can look back at all of the changes. And could you say that now? There's something that can come through you that could not have come through you before?

Yeah, absolutely. I think so. You know, and I think in talking about this to you, and even thinking about, you know, sharing this story about my life, I think it's given me a perspective that, you know, is unique to me, but I just wouldn't have had before. And I think I see that show up, you know, I see it show up in the way that I connect with others. I see it show up in the way I create relationship, and how I kind of move through the world. I think we live our experience outwardly, sometimes for the good. And sometimes it doesn't always feel like it's for the good, but I've always had that sense of, you know, what potential did I have? Who could I have been? Had I had answers to some of these things earlier had my earlier life had a different path? What would that have looked like? And yet, everything I've experienced has brought me to this moment. I wonder what that's going to open up for me. You know, I've always held myself as not somebody who's creative about always been inspired by stories. poet's whether it's you know, ancient Sufi poetry or something more current, the messages within that, like what speaking to me in those things, all of that has, in some ways been absorbed into me. And I wonder what creativity there is to come from me. So I love to write, I don't do it often. And I second guessed myself, way too much to share it with anyone. But that's where I think there are these kind of untapped things in me that I've not been in a place or a space before, where they've been able to be expressed.

I think everyone is creative. And I think that I'm not here to give you a homework assignment. But I will give you an anyway, I can't shed the professor in the entire sign up for that, Kristen,

I want you to write something and I want you to share it. And and I would be happy to post it in the show notes. But even just spending these few hours with you, your heart is so rich, your view of the world is so wide, I hope you will express more. And I love that you have sort of landed, we've landed on a question, which is what more will come through you. And I love that it kind of takes me back to to the title of the podcast, which ends with a blooming, you know, of some sort and an expression and opening. And so I think I will be curious to see what does come through you next?

I feel a lot of gratitude actually, for you even asking that question. You know, I think hearing you say that, I really recognize how I'm really only just now finding my voice, which seems like a strange thing to say, right? Anyone who knows me would be like you talk all the time. Really, you're only just finding your voice. But I think that real inner voice that speaks from an experience of life in the world can connect with others. And I think that's one of the ways that I'm able to make an impact. But what I'm seeing as you're asking me this question, so this is free flowing thought is that I don't always fully have my voice, even now. And I think risking having my voice out there. You know, there's a reason why something in me was called to do this with you. I think there's something now about, yeah, not having maybe so many major changes ahead of me to come. But really putting voice to who I am as a result of the change I've experienced in my life, and put in that to work in the world in some way. But I think as I was preparing for this podcast, it's funny because this one quote, kept rolling through my head, find out who you are, and do it on purpose, right. Where's this quote from? It's Dolly Parton. And I feel like that is just speaking to you from Nashville, Tennessee. I just, I thought that was kind of just a really fitting quote for this whole conversation. Yeah, so I'm going to give a little nod to the wonderful dolly Park,

people gravitate towards her I think because of that, because she is who she is. She's such an authentic vibration, you know, musically, but in the in the world. And it's not only very attractive, but it's, it feels good to be around that. Yeah. That kind of energy compelling. That's a neat way to kind of wrap up and to maybe also nudge you forward to do whatever is your next creative thing you know, on purpose.

I'll let you know how that goes.

Thank you, Jordan, for your story for your time for your intelligence and your vulnerability.

You're so welcome.

I look forward to talking to you again. shift shift Bloom is a co production of T com studios and actually quite nice. engineered by Tim fall and hosted by me, Kristen Cerelli episodes are available wherever you download your podcasts are made possible by listeners just like you. Please consider supporting our work by visiting us@patreon.com forward slash shift shift bloom where you can access both Episodes and other special features for as little as $5 a month