Serena talks with Véronique Péron, Coach, Leadership Trainer, Founder & Host of Explore and Sense, about the importance of self-compassion, the role of leaders in welcoming back employees and the challenge of coming back to work every day.

You can find more about Véronique here:

• Véronique's Linkedin
• Explore and Sense - a project around the importance of Emotional Intelligence for Leaders

So for me, for example, I started to be aware of that.

And when I start off, I'm saying this to myself, this is not nice.

I wouldn't treat myself.

I wouldn't say that to a friend.

So I noted, I accept that this has happened.

And then I decided, okay, what do I Do differently rather than just

brewed about it and think, oh my God, again, I've been so harsh with myself.

So I think self-compassion is really a key.

And it's something we have to cultivate and repeat over and

over to make that something a bit more natural with ourselves.

Today we have Veronique Peron coach leadership trainer.

Founder and the host of Explore & Sense, a project that is exploring the

importance of emotional intelligence for leaders in our conversation.

We are exploring again, the importance of self-compassion the role of the

leader in welcoming back employees , how can we use our emotional intelligence?

And now can we come back to work every day in the best way possible.

Thank you so much for Veronique for being here.

We are going to discuss today about coming back to work after

a life-changing experience.

Why do you think it's so hard?

think it's hard because I think usually coming back you've changed.

think whether you've come back after a sabbatical, you lived abroad.

You've had some different experiences or you've had a big illness.

You've lost someone dear or you uh, yeah, whatever experience it

is that makes you, makes that you were gone from work for a while.

I think when you come back, you've changed.

And I think that's what makes it hard is you've changed, but you don't.

And probably the environment that you're rejoining has changed as

well, but maybe not at the same pace or in the same way as have.

And maybe it's hard because you don't know whether you're going

to fit in again, whether we, you going to find the same values.

Yeah.

Will you find your own place?

I think for all those reasons, it's hard to come back.

It's really true.

And how can you adapt to a workplace that is not, that has not changed like you

are and where you can feel like an alien

I think in order to fit in, you need to, somehow you need

to find a way for your values to fit with the values of the environment

you're in or the team you're with.

So maybe you might be joining a company where you may not fit in

exactly where the company value, but the team in which you rejoin has a

manager that's Leads in a certain way.

And you find that there's something that much is there.

Ultimately I think if, if the gap is so different, I think you're going

to struggle to come back and maybe it's not so good and not healthy for

you to come back in that environment.

Also.

I think why it's hard to come back is because when we've changed,

I think you, I think through the life-changing experience, Come

some awareness about ourselves.

So maybe before we, the experience happened, maybe then we were inline

with the values of the workplace, but then all of a sudden we realized

that this is not us anymore.

And therefore yeah, this there's a disalignment.

I can feel that.

And what do you think about the importance of sharing?

For me, I think it's crucial because when you share you you enable the

other person to understand where you come from and the other person who shares,

enables you to come from where they come from to understand where they come from.

Equally sharing about a life-changing experience is tricky.

And I think this is why the whole thing about coming back to work after

life changing experience is tricky.

If it's after an event, which is, let's say for example, you've had a baby.

So that changing experience, that's probably one of the easiest, even

though it's not easy, but it's one of the easiest coming back to work.

Or if you broke your leg, you went skiing, you broke your leg.

It took a lot longer.

You just come back while you still the same.

And it was just a physical, a simple physical injury.

But I think when it comes to you, come back after uh, mental health,

for example or critical illness.

That's really changed you.

It's hard to talk about it because I think there's a lot of discomfort.

I think a lot of people, whether it's you as a person or whether

it's your manager or the people you work with, I think there's a lot

of people who are not comfortable with talking about some topics like.

Am I comfortable to talk about cancer?

Am I comfortable to talk about losing someone dear?

Am I comfortable to talk about mental illness?

If it happens?

If it happened to me, am I comfortable talking about it?

If it happened to one of my team member, am I comfortable to talk about it?

I think it's not easy and it's quite tricky because it talks

about our own vulnerability.

I might not want to share.

My vulnerability.

I'm not, I might not be ready.

And my manager might think that it would be good to share an I might open

up some spaces to talk, but if I'm not ready, I'm not going to talk about it.

So it's a, I think it's really tricky, even though I'm convinced that's one

of the keys being able to share about.

On the leadership manuals.

I always talking about the importance of vulnerability and

be aware of our own emotions.

It's easier said than done.

And at the same time I feel that emotions are still a taboo in a lot of workplaces.

What do you think?

I think what I encounter is that people seem to.

Bad reputation about emotion or they're not comfortable with it because

either they think that it makes them do or say or things that they don't

want to like it might make them cry.

It might make them raise their voice, say things in a certain way.

And that's not the way they want to be seen because it opens up a

little crack oil, open up something.

Emotions in a workplace.

It's still a very, a sensitive topic, I think.

, If a manager and a leader is more comfortable with their own emotion,

I believe that they can create an environment where the employee will feel

more comfortable to show the vulnerability because they will know that it's safe.

'cause I think that's where it's hard as what to share about stem thing

and in the workplace, if you don't feel safe, if you don't know what

is going to be done about it, what your manager is going to do about it.

For example, if you break down because too hard, you came back

from a life-changing experience.

You maybe you've come back.

Too early.

And actually you struggling, if you dare to go and talk to your manager

about it, you might stop crying.

And , uh, a healthy manager will welcome that and we'll help you UK.

Okay.

With it.

And we'll say it's okay.

But unfortunately, there are also some managers who potentially could use that

against you and think, oh and so she's come back, she's actually not ready yet.

She's quite weak.

And I think that's all of these things that makes people not dare to share

their emotion and their vulnerability.

And I think this is why the leader has a key position key job because we modeling

as a leader, we modeling something.

So we creating the environment or we contributing to the environment.

That we are offering to the employees.

As a leader, if I'm showing my vulnerability, if I'm okay to talk

about my emotions openly in the workplace and talking about my emotions.

It doesn't mean I have to talk about every details in my life.

I could just say, I'm struggling.

I'm struggling to come back.

I'm struggling to come back because I'm trying to focus because for

six or nine months I had chemo.

And yes, my thinking process is a lot slower at the moment.

And and I thought I wanted to be back and I wanted to be fit and

performing and I can see it and I'm not performing as well as before.

And I'm disappointed with myself.

And if I can put words to all of those processes, that's going on in my own

head, whether it's me as a manager or me as a an employee, I think that's helpful.

And it's really hard when performance is in the mix because all of

us wants to perform well to be successful, to meet all the KPIs, to demonstrate that

we are actually back better than before, but it's It's like a veil and that is

hiding something that is behind this veil.

We all know that emotions and emotional intelligence are huge contributors

of high-performing team, but at the same time, it's linked to a long-term.

Process not short term.

So it's really difficult to work on to show that if I'm working like

at 70% today is because I can work in six months a lot more better.

how can we work on this dichotomy between performance and the need of.

Time-space will their ability emotions.

I think the leader and the managers have a key role there.

I think it's their job to remind the person who comes back that it's

okay to not be at a hundred percent.

I'm not.

So I think a manager has to tell the person, look, I'm not

expecting you to be a hundred.

And I don't want you to be a hundred percent I'm, it's okay to to be at 70%.

I'm not expecting any more, and I think it's yeah, it's the job of the manager

to give that permission over and over again to say, okay, for the first six

months, for the first whatever months you've come back, the main thing is you

come back step by step and it's okay.

And it's, you got the permission to.

To not be at the full performance.

I'm not expecting you to be at the full performance.

That's not what I want.

That's not what I expect because otherwise if you don't say that as a leader,

obviously the person who comes back will probably want to to show, to prove to

themselves, Hey, I'm back and step out of the team and I'm contributing as much.

So I think.

It's also important for the manager and the leader explains

to the rest of the team and communicate to the rest of the team.

The fact that it's okay.

And so is back.

And for a certain amount of time, the time it will take it's

okay for me as a manager, that person is not a hundred percent.

I'm not expecting them to be a hundred percent.

The problem is that Companies environment nowadays, everything goes

so fast . And it's all about results, concrete, results, and performance.

And unfortunately there isn't often there's not enough space for everybody

at their own pace at their own with them.

And we all have to be full on.

But coming back to work you broke your leg and that's it you've had a full recovery,

but even sometimes for recovery means that you still need to restart slowly.

full on, it's not.

healthy You're not going to go and run straight away after you've broke your leg.

So it's the same thing, but I think the hard thing with a non-visible

illness or injury or loss, anything which is not visible We'll be

harder and more easily be forgotten.

That's it.

You back off where we expect you to be just, okay we've

given you a week after week.

Everything's back to normal, but that's not the reality though.

And so I think leaders need to be aware of that and they need

to make that team aware of that.

And they need to make the person who come back aware of that and they need

to give permission over and over.

You've permission.

It's really powerful for me because it's also really challenging

to give ourselves permission.

Any advice on how to do that?

Cultivating self-compassion.

I think it's a blessing.

It's not a given me, for example, I know people I care about, they will say to

me, Vero you very compassionate, but they don't hear the way I talk to myself.

And the way I talk to myself, it's not compassionate at all.

I am I am harsh with myself.

I will never ever treat even a person I don't like in a workplace.

I would never say to them, the things that I say to myself.

So I think the trick would be to be aware of that.

Once you start to be aware of that, to accept.

So for me, for example, I started to be aware of that.

And when I start off, I'm saying this to myself, this is not nice.

I wouldn't treat myself.

I wouldn't say that to a friend.

So I noted, I accept that this has happened.

And then I decided, okay, what do I do differently rather than just

brewed about it and think, oh my God, again, I've been so harsh with myself.

So I think self-compassion is really a key.

And it's something we have to cultivate and repeat over and

over to make that something a bit more natural with ourselves.

And do you have any advice on how can we become more self aware of our

limits or our struggles, maybe using some tools coming from emotional intelligence.

I think self-awareness is important.

And so self-awareness means one having the courage and curiosity to go and look at.

Okay.

What's the emotion.

Going through me right now and having the courage to open the door to all

of the emotions, especially the ones which are uncomfortable because often.

Tend to only want to feel the comfortable emotion, but it turns

out that it's often the uncomfortable one that will give us clues or signs

for which, from which we can grow.

The growth will come from the uncomfortable emotion.

So I think developing curiosity towards all of our emotion, having the courage,

to feel all of our emotion, even, and especially the ones which are uncommitted.

And to just feel it.

And and then having the compassion to silky and having self compassion,

developing self compassion in order to then say, okay, I felt this

emotion, this was signaling me.

For example, I, this morning I realized that it was feeling sadness and in

the past I would just push that away.

What does the stomach okay.

What's.

Okay.

It's sadness.

Okay.

And I just noted.

Okay.

I feel sadness.

And then I realized, okay, there's been a couple of days in a row now that

I've been feeling sadness and it's been there and it's, what is it signaling me?

What is it telling me?

And cause your emotion is signaling a need that is not satisfied.

And for me, sadness was just signaling that I needed to.

Take the time to just find comfort about something that I went through, but in

the past, I would have not taken the time for that and to go through that way.

That's one example.

I don't know whether that's helpful, Serina

really helpful in all your work.

There is a key word that is exploration.

The idea to explore.

It's really something that I'm interested about.

Do you think we can explore and be curious also about coming back to work,

coming back to life, let's say about our own healing, about our own recovery?

Definitely.

And I think by developing a curious eye, a non-judgemental curious eye.

To ourselves or to others.

I think that's a key.

So I say, I think as a manager, for example, I may be uncomfortable

with people's vulnerability or peoples a certain situation.

I could just go and be curious and go, and maybe have a chat with some

people who I know have come back from some serious injuries or some.

Big events that meant that they they had a life changing experience.

And if I go and ask them question from a place of curiosity yeah.

I just want to know in order to understand better, like you explore new territories

without a churchman without comparing, but just in order to understand better.

And I think.

If we were able to do that, of course, it depends on whether the person wants to

share and that's, we have to respect that whether the other person wants to share.

But I think if we're able to, if I, if I go and talk with some people, for

example, who've had Uber suffered from cancer and who've come back to work.

If I explore on, if I'm curious, I'm going to find out how they are,

how they feel, what they struggle, and then I'll be able to find.

Ways for me to behave or two strategies that I can put in place that can

help them, that could help me.

But I can't do that if I haven't explored.

Same with, if someone has lost someone, a deer and is coming back, if I go

and explore the difficulty, and if I come from a place of respect K.

And authentic care.

I think we've got to learn a lot to learn then providing the other

person is ready to share and providing I'm prepared as well.

And I'm ready to receive because sometimes some stories might impact me a lot.

The other day I had a manager who's sharing to me a story about he'd lost

He'd lost his wife and he had a young child and then he came back to work

and everything went back to normal because that's the way he wanted.

And so I was touched just for two days.

I was just he stabilized, I think but equally I was curious to know

too curious and respectful and he didn't want to, to share anything

more to the rest of his teams.

That's his right.

But having explored the fact that he shared a bit, then he gave me

some clues as to why some people sometimes don't want to share.

And it's okay as well that they don't want to share.

But as a manager, I can also say to that person.

What if one day you want to share more?

I'm here.

I'm here to listen.

And I can, if I can add something more.

Of course here we are talking about coming back to work after a

life-changing experience, but actually we are coming back to work every day,

after little things, little struggles, little challenges, some sadness

for something that is happening.

So I'm wondering if we can train ourselves to have.

A good way to come back to work every day to show up every day with self-compassion

with understanding real curiosity.

I agree with you.

I think if already every day we are we create space to, for people to

share something a little something.

It doesn't have to be all the details of the life, but at least.

What sort of how are they arriving?

What's their internal weather already.

That is a big step, I think.

Because I, you started that, you don't know what the person's gone through.

Maybe the person, I don't know, they've just I dunno, they'd been stopped by

the police and they had a big fine and not gets them really angry and they

ride in a museum and all it's a very angry person and you just start the

thing that it's all about you or the work has got nothing to do with that.

I often invite people to share their.

The personal weather without going into the details of their personal life, but

just a person of weather, the same way as you update your iOS on your phone

and then you've got the latest version.

So if I saw you yesterday, I'm still on the yesterday version and there's lots of

things that's happened between yesterday and this morning when you come to work.

I just need a quick update to see how you are.

And so I'm on the same page as you.

And if I know that you've had a struggle last night, and this is why maybe

you're struggling to focus today, what I know, and then I can adjust my behavior

with you and we can address things.

And I think we can be more fluid and more healthy for everybody.

This is science fiction.

That can be a reality in our work

environments.

I want it to be reality.

I want it to be reality and I want to contribute to that, but I know

that again different people go at different pace, different rhythm.

So some people will be ready for it.

Some environment will be ready for it.

Some others are not going to be some places.

It just takes.

Leaders to try and dare to do things differently bit by bit

for the whole system to change.

And some other system is too different.

So I don't think a science-fiction I really think that people need

a better quality of relationships and link some I really think

that will make the difference.

I think it makes a difference in a team and in an organization that what's

better is the quality of the relationship and the quality of a relationship goes

through what we've just talked about.

So I don't want it to be science fiction.

I want to be the future and I want to contribute to that.

It might take time, but I think we can, all, we can all contribute to that.

I think.

Do you want to share something else to our list?

Maybe just I think if we all want to have a more human

environment in work, we all need to take our own share of responsibility.

We don't need to just be the leader changing it.

Obviously, if the leader changed something it's more impactful, it's

got yeah it will work through the organization, but still at my own

level, as a manager, I can decide to.

To lead in a different way as a, as an employee, I can decide

to be differently an already.

So I think we can all adapt level, do our own step, pick our own chair.

Thank you so much Vero

thanks.

Serena it was a pleasure to be with you.

And thanks again.

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