In this engaging interview, Lisa Richer shares her inspiring journey as a neurodiversity consultant, emphasizing the importance of collaboration, self-acceptance, and proactive communication in supporting children with neurodivergent needs. Discover practical strategies for parents and educators to build effective partnerships and advocate for their children's success.

keywordsneurodiversity, parent advocacy, education system, collaboration, self-acceptance, IEP, school communication, neurodivergent children, special education, emotional intelligence

key topics

• Building effective parent-school relationships
• The importance of self-acceptance and neurodiversity
• Strategies for advocating within the education system
• The role of emotional intelligence and empathy in collaboration
• Navigating challenges and building resilience in supporting neurodiverse children

guest nameLisa Richer

titles

• Building Bridges: How Parents and Educators Can Collaborate for Neurodivergent Kids
• The Power of Self-Acceptance in Supporting Neurodiverse Children

Sound Bites

• "My journey started with my first son."
• "Don't get angry, get curious."
• "Diagnoses inform, they don't define."

Chapters

00:00Introduction and Technical Setup

00:00The Journey Begins: Lisa's Background

00:00Understanding Neurodiversity and Parenting

01:07Navigating the Education System

04:06Building Relationships with Educators

06:48The Importance of Early Intervention

09:41Empowering Parents Through Knowledge

12:24The Role of Advocacy in Education

15:02Collaboration with Schools

18:03Trusting Your Instincts as a Parent

20:57Trusting Your Parental Instincts

22:49Navigating School Systems and Communication

25:25Building Relationships with Educators

29:18Empowering Parents to Advocate

32:23The Balance of Professional Relationships

38:19Acceptance and Understanding of Neurodiversity

44:17Challenges in the Education System

50:25The Importance of Parental Participation in Meetings

Guest links

• Instagram - Journey to Bloom
• Website: https://journey2bloom.com/
• Instagram: Lisa Richer
• Email: lisa@journey2bloom.com
• Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaricher/

specialedrising.com

https://www.gofundme.com/f/join-rays-respite-care-mission

Lisa Richer, welcome to the show. It's such a pleasure to meet you and have you here.

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Richer than you think you are is probably what you are. Yeah.

Maybe, possibly.

That's interesting. I like that spin. That's good.

Yeah, because what I've learned about you so far, and I can't wait to learn more, is that you're doing this incredible work, which intrinsically makes us richer, right? Because in this business, it's rare that anybody gets in it for the money because they're going to be really disappointed. So we've got to find your own way to get richer. And this is way for me to get richer by meeting you. So thank you so much for being here.

No true.

We were just talking a little bit about your kids and how long you've been doing this work and how they've grown through the years. And I wanna start where you started. Tell me a little bit about your background and how this whole journey started for you. And then we wanna talk about how we can help parents and what you're doing to help parents and even educators. Because I think that connection is

the most critical connection, the parent-teacher connection. And so just go for it.

All right. Sounds

good. And I was taking notes. So somebody's probably watching this. One of the things that I learned over the years is if I'm not taking notes, I'm not able to really listen and process and retain. I interject. I say half of an answer because I didn't have the time to do that. So that's something that I've learned over time is an accommodation with minor differences. So if we go all the way back, this journey for me really started.

Yeah.

when I was little because I now know that I grew up undiagnosed neurodivergent. I grew up as an elite level athlete, unknowingly neurodivergent. One of the things that I've learned later in life is visual processing disorder. So my depth perception, my peripheral are really off kilter. So if you came on with a background on, I would ask you to turn it off because I would see like this, this would be what I would see. And then my head would hurt. And so pre-COVID when there weren't backgrounds,

I was fine doing virtual work. Once COVID hit, couldn't figure out what happened. Well, it was the backgrounds and they actually give me headaches and make my, my eyes are like those that the rear-frame mirrors where it says the objects in the mirror closer than they appear. That's how it was described to me. That's actually how my, eyes are working or not working, if you will. And through the brain, like how my brain perceives the breath, the depth and thing. And then growing up as a, as an undiagnosed,

Really.

now diagnosed ADHD-er, lately, almost, I was 49 when I was diagnosed, and I didn't even go looking for it. It was just offered to me based on some observations and assessments and things that my therapist was doing. And so, grew up undiagnosed there. Then went to corporate world, into college, know, through that whole process growing up, undiagnosed, not knowing what I didn't know. Then,

Almost 20 years ago now, I was gifted my first of two boys, and then three and half years later, my second of two boys, each of them neurodivergent, different neurotypes. And so my journey to the business that I have now, which I now call Journey to Bloom, which when I originally started, it was called Bloom Special Education Advocacy. It all began with my first son.

Within a couple weeks of him being born, there were things going on. They were more physical. But then as the time went on, tons of assessments, tons of unknowns, not knowing what to do, who to go to, being told, just get over it, all sorts of stuff. well, by family members, by different people, like, it'll just go away. It's fine. Just get over it. Well, yeah. So,

Really? You were told that.

no.

That's cold. Yeah.

I

chose to lean in and find those specialists. And so one person talked to me about, were comfortable enough with their child's situation to come to me and very kindly and curiously say, would you be interested in someone that helped us? We didn't follow through on what it needed to be. And this child was so good at.

this, little, we were at a little gym at the time. And if you're familiar with the little gym, I used to actually be a program doctor at one way before I had kids. But it's this place where it's developmental and it's helping with finding gross motor skills. It's helping with balance, coordination, self-esteem, all the parts of gymnastics that I felt were just so important to the foundation of resilience and who I've become. So I had enrolled my oldest in it.

little did I know, because he wasn't diagnosed autistic yet, the sensory input, the visual input, the loud noises, the bells, the changing, all that movement, it was so overwhelming that he became so dysregulated and he had not a temper tantrum, but an actual sensory meltdown. And so the parent had said to me, I have this person, back then the supernanny was really popular. Now the supernanny

doesn't even believe there are neurodifferences. That's a whole nother thing I had read. It was interesting. like, these are all behaviors. So it was quite fascinating because watching her show was integral in my husband and I trying to understand how to kind of work through some of the differences at the beginning with consistency and such. when there was an article, don't even know. I'm not even sure if it's fully true, but there was an article that came out several years ago that was talking about how she.

wow, it evolved.

was thought it was more you could just change behaviors, but you can't for every, everybody's different, right? So even what worked for my older son didn't work for my younger one because my younger one ADHD, they both have different, many neuro differences, but those were like the core ones they were initially diagnosed with. And so back to that situation at the little gym, that mom introduced me to a behavioral psychologist. She was a behavioral psychologist. She was

child and family. And we started, she came into our house, we started working with her, had told us that our son was super intelligent, very empathetic, but was really struggling with sensory and lots of other things. And so it took a long time. We went to OT, speech, we had a behavior list, social skills, all sorts of things until we finally figured out what was going on with him. When he was diagnosed, I became

a true believer that diagnoses inform, they do not define who a person is. Through that journey and what I would call my dream team at the time, they were my village, they all ended up coming with me to a meeting where we had my oldest had his first approval for qualification for IEP adverse impact on academics and ended up having that. And so as the years went on and all of these things started,

He was, like I said, he was only a few weeks old. He was under two years old the first time he had the early interventions. So I've always been a big believer that early intervention is key. And so my blog was early intervention led me to bloom. And then I eventually opened that business, got a bunch of certifications in special education advocacy. But over those years in the early years, I can't even tell you how many people Mark said things to me, like what I just described, even family members.

business people. I even had people 10 years ago tell me I could never do the work I'm doing today because it wasn't either it wasn't needed or it wasn't real or just get over it or just fall in line. Like there were so many things and as I've gotten older and learned about my neuro differences, what I came to realize is people didn't understand me. And so instead of getting curious and trying to understand me,

They chose to make me feel less than, push me aside, tell me to stop being myself basically. And that was my whole lifetime. So the background and the journey, and I actually don't think I've ever kind of explained it this way. And I know I bounced all around, but those pieces have come together to create what I now call Journey to Bloom, where I help parents, educators, professionals, organizations through my clarity, confidence, courage journey map.

Right, right, right.

And I Ripe Ideas pathway? Because bringing people together and you were saying the parents and the educator connection, you know, there's those parents sometimes were children like me that grew up unknowingly neurodivergent and then they either get diagnosed, sometimes they don't later in life. And then they're trying to figure it out. You said this before we went live, you said parents are always educating. And I do agree. The problem is

Many parents don't have the knowledge to be educating. And so if we don't choose to build a team of experts that know more than we do and that help us get there, then we're never going to do the best for our kids. And we're going to be always putting more pressure on ourselves than is necessary. And a third of my clients are teachers, because even teachers, they know they're linear learning. They don't know all the parts either. And they're thrown into circumstances.

Mm-hmm.

that they're asked to do things that they're not trained to do.

Right, no, I agree with you a thousand percent that...

I mean, you we do similar work because I work with parents and trying to help guide them. But the idea that I was speaking about was just that parents are constantly teaching no matter what it is. So to be informed is the thing. And that's why your service and services like what I'm doing too are really important because you're educating them in areas that they don't know because they are the ones that are teaching their kids every day. so that that's what I meant by being teachers because they really are the teachers. They're the main role model for their kids in a

good situation not always not in every situation unfortunately parents aren't always able to be that person for their kids but they don't know what they don't know or also even just like you know the situation the makeup of the family and the situation you know single parents parents that are working all the time that they can't be the the person to go to all the time so yeah all those reasons absolutely that that's why and I wanted to ask you you know

Right, because they don't know what they don't know, right? And so.

you got into this to work with parents more to help them through the system, to guide them through the system, or both the system and how to manage at home. Do you work in both areas?

Yeah, I'm not a, I'm often times when I'm just going to write it down because I'm going to forget the second half. ⁓ Oftentimes, well, my, I'll answer the first part, the part of this first. My initial intention was to help parents not have to go through what I went through. And so I believe that every child deserves to live their best life and every parent deserves the tools and resources to get there.

Sure, go for it. Take your time.

Mm-hmm.

And so through the years of working with parents, I look at the lens through what I've had in place since I rebranded with Jernita Bloom, I have the clarity, the confidence and courage as semi-packages, if you will, from like a high level of, are you at the beginning? Are you looking for help of who are those outside service providers that you need to...

us a line with, maybe it's pre diagnosis and you don't know what's going on yet. And so who do I even start with? How do I get there? So some of it is a journey map and just that piece of it of building that baseline and that team foundation. Sometimes it's the, starts at the confidence piece where parents are feeling like it's all their fault or they, the one, one parent is saying,

it's going to go away, I'm going to ignore it. And the other parent's going hands down, we have to get this child interventions or no matter what stage of the game it is. And so my intention initially was to sit in that middle and it does then cross over the home component because all those things impact it. And so inadvertently working with

parents as I do with lot of professionals in figuring out where their self-loathing beliefs are they worthy of this? Are they comfortable enough to be uncomfortable and ask for help and be vulnerable? So there ends up being this home component because there has to be it's that's the nucleus of the whole circumstance that we're dealing with. But a lot of people come to me in what if you look at my website would be called the courage piece of it, which is how do they move through?

Reviewing the assessments, going into the meetings, having all of that. I really wanted that to be the smallest part of my business. I, my intention initially was to work in that messy middle. That's where I believe the magic really happens. And so I think about the world as neurodiversity is a prism lighting the table. And so when we're dealing with that middle of what we know, we don't know what we don't know, we don't know. And then we can get clear, confident and courageous to, you know, to step through that process. And so.

It is both, but understanding how to navigate the system is where people come to me. That's their why. what I do, how I do it, who I do it with, those are more of the pieces that I focus in on because their why is what took me to them or took them to me, right? But it's not what moves us through the process.

Yeah, I feel that parents, families get into the situations, it's brand new. don't know what's going on. And as you said before, I was curious, who were the people that were telling you that you were making it up, that it wasn't real, that you should just let it go? Were these professionals or were just any family members and friends? Or were professionals?

Thank you.

family members, bosses, strangers. ⁓

Okay, so not the professionals

in the, yeah, okay. And have you found, because you know, some places, it's gonna be different everywhere you go, every school district, whatever, some people, some administrations are gonna be more open to working with families and things like that. What do you feel is one of the first things that you need to do to equip parents right off the bat to get them kind of on track with where you want them to go or where you feel they need to go?

Yeah, that's a great question. And it depends on their why, meeting them, you know, where they are. Because as you said, my kids, my oldest started school pre-K in a school in California, and then we moved back to Maryland. And so he started his K through high school, know, kindergarten through high school in the state of Maryland. So yes, each...

school in every district in every state is different. Sometimes each school within the township or the county is different. that's the first thing I would tell people is what you just said, Mark, is it's one of one. And so when you go in and start working with the school, building that relationship, one of the true reasons I ended up building a

Right, that's what I mean. Yeah, exactly.

Mm-hmm.

my business, my consultancy and doing this full time now, not to get rich, like you said, because I could go back to corporate and make six times as much as I make now. But it's because one of the principals that had been part of my journey from the very beginning, I had to go to him before school even started and say, this classroom that you just put my son in,

Sure.

I tried to get in touch with that special educator while I was in California. I knew your admin better than I knew that special educator because the special educator never got back to me. And now you're telling me that we've already talked about how strong communication needs to be between home and school because I had built that team in California and they helped me understand what made a great team and how that collaboration and that work together. I can't have him start off his kindergarten year with that teacher.

Right.

Absolutely.

And so that was my one of my first meetings with that principal before I even got home because we were in a walking neighborhood. Before I even got home, he had called me. He said, Miss Richer I listened to you. We're going to go ahead and put him with the teacher who actually assessed him for his reading. He had a good relationship with them. I hear you. And so he showed me that there are administrators out there that would will do it as long as you approach it in a calm manner. So fast forward.

Great.

4 years, he was leaving administration to go back into the school systems, but he had to go to private school because he couldn't go from administrator back into the classroom. I don't get that at all, that's for another day. But when he left, he said to me, you need to do this as a business. And my initial reaction to him, Mark, was, but I don't have a background in advocacy. he's kind of like you said earlier, you're probably richer than you know you are. My knowledge

was greater and stronger even then before I got any certifications than half the advocates that were out there. And he said to me, yeah, and yes, and was learning as I was living it. I wasn't just living it. I was gathering, you know, books.

Absolutely, because you lived it. Yeah.

Sure,

yeah, right, because you had that assertion to go and get that information, right. Assertiveness, I should say, not assertion, assertiveness.

Absolutely. And so the ultimate.

So talking about parents, this is really going somewhere. This is my ADHD kind of going all over, but this is going somewhere. So when we bring this together, the ability to wrap your arms around the school system instead of fighting them, that's where this story is leading because I go in and this was partly from that conversation with that principal. He said to me, you're in partnership with us. You don't ever come in.

That's okay.

Mm-hmm.

demanding something, you come in trying to solve problems. And so when I go into a meeting, I say I'm a neurodiversity consultant. I am here because the family hired me to be here. I am here in collaboration with the school. I am really here for the child. And that's why we're all here. We're all here for the child. And so when you're working with the school system, don't think about it as they work for me because you tax payer dollars, or I need to be someone that pushes back.

If you go in with the belief that you are working with them, and then if you have someone like me, that that person becomes someone that's not working for you or just sitting in the background, but really working with you also, I don't accept clients that want me to just do what they tell me to do. Because when they tell me their why, it's because my expertise is something that they don't understand. And so if they're not willing to work with me, then I'm

I can't work with them. And so in partnership, exactly in partnership. So when you walk into a school, think about that story. Think about that relationship that I built with that principal from day one. And then maybe even reflect on times where it didn't work that way. You know, if your child's in kindergarten or your child's in high school, it doesn't matter. It's never too late to get that help.

Sure, can't really help them. You can't help them the way you fully can help them because you're being cut off. Yeah. Yeah.

But the way you approach getting it and the way you approach the school does matter.

I agree a thousand percent. I always encourage parents to get that relationship, that positive relationship until you start to feel it going south. And then, you know, then you make adjustments as you go. to go in with that in and out attack mode is just going to shut them down. And it's also just going to give you this reputation where they don't want to work with you. Whether you know, and it may be your right to go in there angrily because you're pissed off about something, but still not going to be the most productive approach, at least to start for sure. Yeah.

Absolutely, I agree, absolutely.

Yeah. So sounds like you really followed your gut and your instinct. And that is something that I think depending upon a parent's confidence level and confrontational skills, things like that, where they're afraid to speak up, how did you get to the, you seem like it came kind of came natural to you. Like you had that instinct and you just went for it. So

What's the risk of these parents if they ignore that voice? How do you kind of help them get past that?

Yeah, that's part of unpacking those self-limiting beliefs. And I appreciate you calling that out, Mark because it was my gut instinct. And it did come natural. At the same time, as early I was actually just talking to a childhood friend about this yesterday. It was probably around 16 years old where I truly stopped listening to my gut because so many people in society had told me, don't do that, or don't do that, or why do you do it that way, or that doesn't make sense, or what is your brain even saying?

everything was, okay, I guess I'm just wrong and I can't trust myself anymore. But what happened when I became a mom, I don't know if it was my inner child that said, I'm coming back out and trusting, like my gut instinct is just gonna take over as my motherly instinct combined. it definitely, the gut and the intuition, I was definitely born with that.

Mm-hmm.

It was suppressed for a long time, but when I became a mom, yeah, I think it just naturally came back out. And our very first pediatrician, a week into me having my first son, I was having trouble nursing and the lactation consultants were making me feel like it was my fault. And my husband didn't know any different either. So he's like, what are you doing wrong? Because they're telling us this, we're first time parents.

I went to our pediatrician and she said, he's having a hard time. This isn't your fault. This is your child is having a hard time. And it was in that very moment she said to me, never not trust your gut because your gut instinct as a parent. And she was saying this as a general, but she is like, you were spot on. Sometimes the experts don't know everything. And so I would say, you know your child better than anyone.

And so you may not know, we were talking about the education piece, right? You may not know how to support your child in any given moment, but you do know your child better than anyone. And so there may be things that that person can help you with or you need to speak up, but if you're not comfortable speaking up, there are definitely resources in your local area that you can get some free guidance. You can attend some webinars to get some initial language.

but for me, a lot of times when parents come to me, sometimes they're in, they're really proactive. Those They're my easiest clients to work with because they're so proactive that their, reason for coming to me is just to help me educate them through the pieces they don't get. And so that's like the easiest flow in, but more, yes. And clarification and knowledge, but more often than not, they come when they are so fed up with the school system or so fed up with the teacher. And so.

Right. Like clarifications and things like that. Yeah, Right.

It becomes, this is where that kind of parent mentorship piece comes in. Cause I don't call myself a coach, but that mentorship of, okay, how did we get here? What's happening at home? Are these behaviors or these things, are you seeing them there as well? Is it happening in the school? And formulating how to articulate what it is that you want to say to the school. And then when they say they don't see it, don't get combative with them.

Mm-hmm.

Don't get angry with them. Get curious. Ask more questions. Here's how it's showing up at home. Or can I come in and observe? Or can I send someone in to observe? What do need to sign off on? So there's a lot of ways to get you speak up. They might say no, or I don't get it, but just keep asking those questions. Because if you truly believe something is wrong, whether they're struggling with academics from a language,

Mm-hmm.

difference perspective or because they're unable to sit still and stay focused or they're dysregulated. There's lots of reasons why they may be struggling academically. And it's not always a black and white thing. I live in the gray. So when I work with families, I go in and I ask these questions that people go kind of like my story I told, like, how does this part, how do these parts come together? When the pieces come together, they're like,

Mm-hmm.

and then I'll ask them questions and then I'll share back with them. This is what I heard you say. I never thought about it that way. Right. Like even when you, when you said something at the beginning and I thought, huh, I hadn't really thought about it that way. Like some of what I do and even about the richer, right? Like the interpretations that we have work like you do and I do, Mark. It allows people to separate the noise from the objectivity. And so many parents are afraid to speak up. And I understand.

Yeah.

why they're afraid to speak up. But trust that gut because if you think something's happening, 99 % of the time something's happening.

Yeah, I do too.

How receptive do you feel these schools are to create helping to create that team? Because I really try to encourage parents to check in much more frequently than the school schedules these parent teacher connections during the school year. especially if there's something going on, you know, really want to know that communication really want to know what's happening in the classroom.

how do you find it because there's gonna be some resistance, some schools, some teachers, some administrators, maybe more open than others. Is there a secret sauce for you that kind of like helps you to create that foundational relationship to build a strong team?

Yeah, so if we're talking about the internal school team, is what it sounds like you're asking about.

in cooperation with the parents.

Yes. So, and I say that because you have that team and there's also the outside, depending on if there's neurodifferences, right? If someone has an IEP or 504, there'll be outside providers, but let's talk internal educators and yeah. Okay. So in that compartment, if you will, in that container, it comes down to building those relationships one by one and not being afraid.

Sure, of course. Right, right. Let's talk about school.

to back to you're not being afraid to speak up. Teachers want, genuinely, typically, do want to help. Now, some teachers have a lot going on and some things are outside. We're human beings also. But reaching out and asking those teachers what's going on, sharing with the teachers.

and all about me. So some schools in the early elementary years might have a child write something that's kind of like all about me. So the teachers are trying to connect with those kids. More often than not, the parents that I work with, the kids either can't fully articulate it or they don't necessarily know yet what they don't know. Parents have a perspective maybe different than the kids. And so helping the teachers understand who your child is. So whether your child is

developing, right, so neurotypical or neurodifferent, it is okay to share information with those teachers about how you see your child learning best, the ways that they receive information, how things might land on them that might trigger them to be frustrated or meltdown or whatever the case is. Helping the teachers understand who your child is, think about how many classes a lot of these teachers teach and how many kids they teach.

the more information you can give them upfront, the better off they're going to be in understanding how to work with your student. And what I find is that when you approach it, more teachers than not will take the time to look at that and say, thank you. Some teachers will say, well, you never asked me about that. You went directly to the case manager if they have an IEP. And the case manager maybe never followed up or when they followed up, it was like telephone. So what the...

what the teacher heard was not what the parent told them exactly. And even one or two words being shifted can change the whole narrative of the conversation. And so direct building of relationships with each teacher, get to know the principals, get to know the school counselor, get to know all of those parts. So whoever is part of your child's day in a life at the school.

It was not with her. Sure.

Right.

start to build those individual relationships with, and then start to bridge those relationships and connect the dots. That's what I would recommend. And that is, I mean, I don't even know if I would call it a secret sauce to me. It's innately in tuned with how I operate that emotional intelligence, that empathy piece. But just like some people's IQs are off the charts.

their empathy may not be and their emotional intelligence, like I would say my emotional intelligence is like up here compared to my WISC-V scores, like my IQ scores. you know, and in some cases, one serves you much better than the other and sometimes they need to be balanced, but you will meet friction points there. So get curious instead of combative when you meet that friction.

that's well said. What would you say to parents who are kind of afraid to push back in those situations where they might feel like maybe the communication isn't clear enough or they're not getting with the things that they need? How do you encourage them? Because you don't want them to be, like you said, you don't want it to be combatative How do you encourage them to push back without being in that frame of mind, that combatative frame of mind going into it like this is a battle and, you know, where it's me against you. You don't want that.

So if I'm gonna talk about like the people I work with when they hire me, and remember we talked about work with me, not I don't work for you, I work with you. And so depending on what's going on, sometimes it'll start with me drafting notes for the parents, for them to look at and then make sure it's in their voice. And then sometimes I would even send those notes because coming from me, I was like, okay, I'm a third party. And now...

that might not always work. I purposely don't call myself a special education advocate because a lot of times you're met with that, gosh, they're gonna be their walls up because of their past experiences too. So just like every advocate's one of one, every parent's one of one. But if you're afraid to do that, bring someone in like me or consult with someone that can help you. Ask somebody that's not emotionally attached to the situation how to potentially

articulate what you need, but also be careful because if I had listened to the people around me that were telling me just say this or just do this, I wouldn't have the relationships I do sort of this day. Like I'm still in touch with that principal who's now teaching at a school. And I ran into him last year and it was like, we had never stopped talking. Like used to come to my kids birthday parties. So, you know, no, I'm not saying to build the relationships to that extent, but it does happen sometimes.

don't know, I understand, but happens.

But if you're truly afraid to speak up, but you know something's going on, you don't have to do it alone. Bring somebody else with you. Sometimes you can find someone that's pro bono. Sometimes you'll, know, some people will do it for free. I don't do it for free, but there are people out there that can help you. I do things as a train the trainer. So ultimately my goal is for people to say, I got this. I don't need you in this meeting. Great. And then a year later, they may come back and say, I need you for this other meeting, or I need you to help me craft these new messages because I have a new issue.

Right.

So don't do it alone. Go in there with people that don't have an emotional tie that can help bridge the gap and bring the team together.

And I would also take this opportunity to kind of just warn both parents and teachers that it's a working business relationship. You know, we do get familiar with each other, we like each other. Sometimes, yes, you have them to your homes, do parties, all these things happen. And I've been a part of that as well.

at the end of the day, it comes down to what's serving that person best. The parent, their concern is the child, right? The teacher, their concern is the child. But in the end, the teacher also is about having to take care of the teacher in the school situation and the parents are about taking care of their kids. that relationship, I think, is really, have to be very careful about how close you get and how much you kind of let down because when it comes to if something ever happens,

that relationship is not necessarily gonna hold together in that moment because now it's like we gotta take care of our sides of the road here. So I'm just a warning to parents and to teachers about getting close and getting too comfortable and thinking that things will just go easy no matter what happens, life happens and people, yeah, go ahead.

Absolutely,

having that relationship doesn't change that you have to, when you go into a meeting, there are roles that you're playing, versus outside, absolutely. And with the in partnership, Mark, there was something you said that just made me think. I was at a client meeting at a school two weeks ago, then we, or last week, and then we went back again this week, we had to do a continuation. And the...

Exactly, just parameters.

former case manager was there and the current case manager because they were still in the same school and this kid's transitioning to middle school. So having that perspective was really good for the knowledge. But what was really interesting is when I would lean in and talk, the former case manager was super interested, collaborative. The OT was super interested and collaborative. The current case manager, I had pushed back.

and in a kind way, I just said so coming with the data, coming with the facts is also really important, right? And building those relationships, not blaming or judging, but coming with the facts. So we did, and we adjusted some things. But what was interesting is the second meeting that just happened, yes, two days ago, the same case manager that was listening to me this time, the current person, I could see their face.

And they were getting a bit frustrated when I was rephrasing things and reframing things to make sure that they were clear. And so then at one point I could feel, like I could feel that friction. Everyone's not intuitive like me, but I could feel it. So I looked at the mom and I said, she's like, do you want to say this? like, no, I want you to say it. And so she said it. And the look on the face of the case manager and the immediate acceptance of it.

was incredible because if I had said it, it would have fallen to most of the room, understandably, but to her it was like she was, she had stopped listening. And I knew that because five minutes earlier, I had said something, mom had said something, but then she said it like it was the first time it had ever been said. So she had truly stopped listening. And one of the things that I've learned over time is,

Don't get angry about that, because I used to. Like, it was like I'd be at a boardroom meeting in corporate. And I'm like, I just said that five minutes ago. How come it didn't, you know? And just let go of those things and know that we're all there for the child. So if I need to say it instead of you or you need to say it instead of me, no judgment there. In fact, good, I'm empowering the parent to realize that they too have that voice. And so we do each have voices at the table.

We also need to be very aware of the surroundings in the room, which is really hard for a lot of people. It's, one of my, what people would call it, a zone of genius. Like I can walk into a room and within 10 minutes know how I'm going to trigger people and when they're going to trigger me. And then I can pause and process my, and shift my conversation based on it. But it really puts people on edge because I get underneath of what's making them nervous. And it used to.

Hmm. That's really interesting.

set me off where I stopped being myself, right? That lack of intuition and what do we say intuition and gut instinct. Now I use it hopefully for good. That's my hope, my intention for the betterment of the family, the relationship with the school and that child. But nothing, yeah, yeah, yeah, very quickly.

Yeah.

Just reading the room. You're able to read the room pretty quickly. Yeah,

and these parents, you go in there and some parents are nervous because for variety of reasons they're nervous, know, let's just say they go in a little insecure. It's much more easy to be rolled over by the school's decisions and not challenge.

We also don't know, right? We don't have the information. Like if I didn't have the five dream teams with me when my son got not only approved for one, but all the initial goals and objectives in place, I didn't know what I didn't know. I still don't know what I don't know. Every grade level I go up, every school I walk into, every county I support, they have different interpretations of the laws. And so we just don't know everything. And so,

Yes.

Yeah.

I think that's another piece too in this partnership. Parents don't think that the teachers should know all of these things, that they should know every piece of how to do something. And teachers don't expect the parents to know how to push back, what to say, what questions to ask. Cause I can't tell how many meetings I've been in and a teacher would say, well, you never asked us that before. And the parents like never, didn't know exactly.

No to ask. Yeah.

Exactly,

Mark. And it happens on both sides. Well, they should have known that. I'm like, actually, they shouldn't know because they're this type of teacher. They are not trained in this.

Yes, 1,000%. and I also think it even goes, mean, it's the teacher that doesn't know everything because you don't know everything until you've experienced these things, until you're taught. Same thing with the parent. And it's with our children too, the expectations of our kids. they don't know what they don't know either. And also, our expectations of them to be much more broad and knowledgeable than a nine and eight and six and whatever year old should be.

Exactly. ⁓

they can't understand exactly where we're coming from. So we have to have the same kind of empathy towards them and compassion and understanding that we want from the administrators when we're going in a little naive about things. We need to be taught just as we need to teach So it's that whole acceptance, all, it's like that complete line from top to bottom or really just across the spectrum of acceptance of who we are.

Absolutely,

well said, very true. That intersectionality and understanding that we all need to give each other some grace because we're all, if we're really there for the child, then let's figure out how to collaborate together to get what they need.

Yeah, two questions I want to get to for sure. One is the parents acceptance of their own kids. Do you run into that situation where we want to fight, we want to advocate for our kid, but we still need to kind of be able to accept where our kid is at and who they are. And do you find that kind of ever gets into the mix with you? Yeah.

thousand percent. And I was,

I smiled and I shook my head because oftentimes, and this happened with myself and my husband too, it's either lack of acceptance or sub or blame. So I have, and I've had friends and clients who one of the spouse, either the wife or the husband or whatever, you know, your, however your marriage is,

shuts down completely and goes into a deep depression because they don't know what to do and how to accept it. I've had, like my circumstances, my husband blamed himself, my gosh, you know, there's this in the family, are we the reason or is it me? And then there was me who said, give me more information, give me more information, give me more information, and just kept on going, going, going. And none of them are right, because my balance, my lack of balance and my go, go, go.

didn't help either when I ended up fully in not just burnout cycles, but in burnout. But so, yes, there's so many variations and it's interesting. So one of the very first parent education sessions I ever ran was how do you speak to others about your child? And at that point I called it child with special needs. Now I would say your child with neurodifferences or just differences. And it's like, who are you speaking to? Is it a parent? Is it a grandparent? Is it?

a neighbor, a friend, who's your audience? And then things to do and things not to do. Because when you're showing up and you're not yet accepting it, how can you expect the people that you're working with to truly understand and help you and or your child if you're in denial or if you are in a place of fear and I'm gonna fight this because it's just gonna go away.

the whole like, it's just gonna go away. It doesn't just go away. I was reading an article recently that said like, you can outgrow autism. I'm like, you don't outgrow it. You learn how to work with it. And my oldest son that's autistic, what sometimes my husband will even say, sometimes I just forget and then something happens and he's like, whoa, he's like, it never goes away, does it? And so he's almost 20, my oldest and...

Still sometimes my husband's like, well, wait a minute. And then my other son is ADHD, you know, there are certain things that are always going to be hard for him to do. And we can either embrace them or we can fight against them. And as a parent, parent to parent or parent to educator or whoever's listening here, when we accept our kids for who they are and we recognize that diagnoses inform, they do not define.

Surprise.

then together we can move toward clarity, confidence, and courage to help those children thrive and help them be free to be themselves at an early stage so that they advocate for what they need and then they go on to help educate others on how also to be more inclusive.

Thank you for saying that so eloquently. because it's upsetting, you know, when you can't accept your own child, and it's really got to be such an internal battle. It all starts with who you are as the person, It's not about the child, it's about who you are. And so what do I need to do in being able able to accept myself and my situation and then my child? So it's a lot of work that has to be done and it's hard because when you're going into those situations,

She's right.

you're not there to be a therapist for the parent, but you end up kind of having to be a little bit of that kind of, bartender, listening to the stories and trying to help guide them and see the reality of what's in front of them and try to get some more realistic expectations out of them. Do you find that's been an experience for you?

Absolutely, and I just, love the bartender thing. because I have lots of different certifications, including one that's a parent behavioral one, that I had to go through 14 hours of understanding the ABCs of ABA therapy in order to have my older son get the interventions. And I remember somebody saying to me, you're talking like you're a therapist. And I'm like, no, I'm not. And they said, you need our training. And I said, but I...

it sounds like your training is a combination between these two certifications that I have. And they're like, yeah, it is. Well, you never told us that. And I said, well, you never asked. Right? And so the same thing, right? It's, love the bartender analogy because that really is it. I don't call myself a coach. I'm not a therapist and I don't call myself a coach. And I have been a coach, know, coached people my whole life. And I've been coached by people as an athlete, as a professional.

Yeah

Right.

But that bartender, I love that analogy, I'm gonna bar that from you, Mark. It's really what it is, right? You're answering and helping and I'm listening, I'm listening without the emotion. Now I do get emotional, I tell you, I cry, my hair stands up in my arms when I'm dealing with my clients, good, bad and indifferent because I do pour my heart and soul into it. But you're right, it's about self-acceptance first. And if we can't truly understand how to help others until we recognize

Certainly. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

the parts that are, it's because of us versus what's going on. If we're projecting our concerns and frustration about a child not getting something or we're not accepting it, then we're not able to show up and help each other in the best way possible because we're struggling with our own demons.

Right, exactly. We just put so much pressure. think parents obviously feel the pressure. But we tend to put a lot more pressure on ourselves to be able to perform and be best and all these things. And then we expect that of our students. We expect that of our kids. How realistic are these expectations? And what do we need to do to kind of maybe adjust, make adjustments so it's more practical and manageable for everyone involved and fair?

Well, let's face

it, the education system is so broken, systemically broken for many, years. And it's not just in the States. I talk with people overseas and there are systems, some of them aren't, some are great, but some of them are very broken also. And especially here in the States, we are demanding more of kids earlier, earlier, earlier. I still remember kindergarten. I had recess, I had nap, I had snack, and it wasn't even a full day. And we all...

Yeah. Right?

You know, we all need it, you know, and

We all... We've managed,

I mean, now there's a lot more things that are good that happen, but from the academic and teaching to test so that we can get funding, I mean, it's just, it blows my mind that we are in a school system and then we shifted every three years or every two years. Like this is going to be better. And then this blueprint or the child, the child behind it's like.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

We can't even stay on solid ground enough to know what's really working or not working because we're constantly chasing something that we think is going to be better. And then a lot of times we come right back to the foundations.

Yeah, it's like giving up on collecting data too soon all the time and making changes. it's amazing to me all the people I meet through this show, yourself included now, that know this, that know about what's wrong with the system. And yet all these people, and we still can't make the changes that are necessary because the wrong people are pulling the strings. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the thing, right? I was just

in a meeting last week. I had filled out a survey because a parent of mine had said, hey, did you fill out this survey? I think you should be involved in this. It was for parents. It was for educators. And it was for people that are advocates and consultants. And so was like, sure, I'll fill it out. I forgot about it after I filled it out. But then I got invited to a session where people, the state, Maryland state, was talking with the teachers, the advocates, the parents.

about like what do we need to change? And I didn't even have to raise my hand because every single thing that I've seen and heard is happening down to general educators are asked to teach children that have specialized design instruction, but they don't understand the neurodifferences. I would go so far as to argue that the majority of special educators don't understand the neurodifferences because they're taught how to teach.

Mm-hmm.

about the neurodifferences that create different ways of teaching.

hey, I was one of them. That was my discovery is that the school didn't prepare you. My masters didn't prepare me for those things. They prepared you to be a teacher, but they didn't prepare you for any of that stuff. How to actually relate to the human being, how to see signs, all these things, et cetera, et cetera. And that's where we're really lacking in our educational system there. And then the school, again, teaching to the test, it's about numbers to keep the school open, right? And so again, this...

Thank you.

It was always, it always rang false to me even if those that I knew had best intentions, you know, we're here for the children. I always had a problem with that because it did the the the evidence of the actual actions didn't show that, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah.

100%, 100 %

and relating to other humans. That's what I took from what you were just saying and seeing the signs. And that came up actually on this session. They said we're asked to identify, like through child find, they're asked to, I think it's called that in the school system too, but they're asked to identify when they think something is happening so that they can then go and get assessed. But teachers aren't trained to understand the signs.

And then often it's, this is a behavioral problem and they're getting 16 citations a month of write-ups and getting reprimanded or told to change their behavior, but the child doesn't even know how to change it. And the teacher doesn't know how to speak to them to show the positive behavioral intervention to do because they taught it, but the county is touting it. it blows my mind. know, it's all in the service.

Madness. Yeah, no,

I have a I know I know a first grade. I'm sorry. I missed that last part. Right, because I was going to say, I know a teacher who has been teaching for years, who who is a, a regular education first grade teacher, but has a neurodiverse child and has been brought to tears so many times because she sees how she's failing that child. She knows she's not equipped for this. And yet.

I just said I feel frustrated for the teachers.

the changes that she's not considered necessarily and I've been there too where the teacher's voice isn't the thing which I think should be after the parents the number one voice to be heard is disqualified almost because they've already made up their minds about what's going to happen.

Absolutely. And I've seen that even with my own children. I had teachers come outside with me after IEP meetings and say, I couldn't say this in the meeting, but I disagreed with it. I need you to follow up with this person, this person, this person, because they were fearful of getting fired. But that goes back to if we come full circle to that relationship mark, because of the relationships I built with each parent, I with each teacher, each administrator, they felt comfortable enough.

Yeah.

That's good. Yeah.

walking outside with me to say bye right after a meeting, but actually to ask me to take action on something and even who to reach out to. But they didn't feel comfortable doing it for fear of being retaliated upon. And then the administrators will go, that's crazy. Well, it's the reality of it. And I shared stuff like this with my central office. And it wasn't until I had some of my parent clients that were also teachers.

Yeah.

of

came up with me to share some of that with central office, they actually started listening. Because one-on-one isn't gonna get you there, but when a second person says it and then a third, wait a minute, now it must be true. That's the real problem with society. That's just not in schools, that's everywhere.

wow.

Yeah, Yeah,

exactly. Exactly. we've gone on a long time. I so enjoyed this conversation. And really, you're just a wonderful person with so much insight and so much knowledge and empathy towards other people that it's always a gift to me to meet somebody like you. So thank you for your time today. ⁓

Thank you.

Thank you.

before we go, I just wanna know, what do you think is the biggest concern that parents are lacking knowledge in when they're going into these things? it doesn't have to be a long answer. Like, what do you think is the thing that comes up a lot for you

if we're talking about an IEP meeting or even a 504 meeting, so that they are an essential part of the team at the table. I think that's something that's very misunderstood is you have the right to have meaningfully participate in any of these meetings. And so your questions are valid. Your questions are warranted. And if they don't feel appreciated at the table, talk to the administrator.

Yeah.

talk to the person who's making you feel that way. Find someone like me, because you are an essential person in that meeting, although many times, and it happens to me still to this day, many times we walk into meetings and the parents don't feel like they're meaningfully able to participate, whether it's because they're getting pushback or because they don't have the knowledge. So that's where I would come in to kind of bridge that gap. But if you're walking in there by yourself,

You have the right to be there and you have the right to meaningfully participate no matter what somebody says.

How can people reach you at Journey to Bloom?

JourneyTheNumber2Bloom.com is my website. ⁓ Thank you. And then Insta, if you want to see me through Insta, it's at JourneyTheNumber2Bloom. And then my email address is Lisa at JourneyTheNumber2Bloom.com. those are the easiest ways. And then my name, I'm on Facebook and LinkedIn. I'll just be very transparent. Wherever you see me, 90 % of the time, I post the exact same stuff across all three platforms.

I'll post that in the notes.

I find that for the audience that I am trying to reach, they all resonate regardless. And so when I create something, does go across all platforms. If you don't see me on one, you might be able to find me on another.

I do the same thing. Yeah. Again, thank you so much for your time. It's such a pleasure to know you and I hope to keep in touch because I think there's so much we could continue to talk about for sure. I find that happens a lot with amazing guests like you and I'm just enjoying myself so much but I know I have to let you go.

Thank

Yeah.

Thank you so much for having me, Mark. It's been a pleasure. The time flew by. didn't even realize what time it was.

I really did. It really did. This was

such an easy flowing conversation. I really appreciate it. All right. Have a wonderful rest of the day and all the best. We're moving forward. Okay.

Thank you, you as well. Take care.

You too,