On this episode of theWhere Parents Talk podcast, host Lianne Castelino speaks with Jenny Perez, entrepreneur, mother and founder of Unplugged an organization whose mission is to raise awareness about the impact of smartphones and social media on children.

Perez shares her insights on how constant device use can affect physical health, emotional well-being, and family communication, while also contributing to challenges such as bullying and social isolation. Drawing from both research and lived experience, Perez discusses the benefits of delaying smartphone access until at least age 14 and emphasizes the importance of consent and independence in young people’s digital lives.

The conversation explores the realities of raising children in a hyper-connected world and examines practical strategies that parents can use to foster healthier relationships with technology.

• The rise of smartphones and social media has profoundly impacted the emotional and mental health of our youth, highlighting the need for proactive parenting approaches.
• The importance of delaying smartphone access for children until they are developmentally ready, ideally around the age of 14.
• Incorporating a community-driven approach can empower parents to take a stand against the normalization of device usage among young children.
• The comparison of social media to tobacco illustrates the potential dangers of device exposure on child development and independence.
• The significance of communication between parents and children regarding consent and their online interactions.
• Parents are encouraged to seek knowledge and resources to better understand the implications of technology on their children’s physical and emotional health.

Links referenced in this episode:

• whereparentstalk.com
• unpluggedcanada.com

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Unplugged Canada
• Wait Until 8
• Brooke Shannon

This podcast is for parents, guardians, teachers and caregivers to learn proven strategies and trusted tips on raising kids, teens and young adults based on science, evidenced and lived experience.

You’ll learn the latest on topics like managing bullying, consent, fostering healthy relationships, and the interconnectedness of mental, emotional and physical health.

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Welcome to the Where Parents Talk podcast. We help grow better parents through science, evidence and the lived experience of other parents.

Learn how to better navigate the mental and physical health of your tween teen or young adult through proven expert advice. Here's your host, Leanne Castellino.

Welcome to Where Parents Talk. My name is Leanne Castellino. Our guest today is an entrepreneur who has lived and worked in several countries.

Jenny Perez is also the founder of Unplugged Canada, a parent led initiative that encourages families to delay giving children smartphones and access to social media until the age of 14. Jenny is also a mother of one and she joins us today from Vancouver. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Thank you. Thank you, Leanne, for having me here.

It seems like as a collective people society, we've been talking about all of these topics as it relates to smartphones and social media and young people for a long time. What was the tipping point for you to want to start up Unplugged Canada?

Well, I've been passionate about this topic for more than 10 years.

And as I was raising my daughter, I was hoping that things would change because I was aware of the data and the research showing that these devices were not necessarily that helpful in the development of children.

But as my daughter reached 8 years old and I was told that the only way for children to communicate in these times was through social media and that the time to give her a smartphone was going to happen soon, that triggered the sense of urgency to do something about it. And it was a difficult decision to make.

But as everybody, sometimes you need to decide whether you take action or you just witness it and just accept it. And I went for taking action and trying to find an alternative to what was normalized in society with children.

So it sounds like you really started thinking about this before your daughter was born and she's 10 years old. It sounds like a very proactive approach as you watch this unfold in society. What was your next step after you made this decision to take action?

Yeah. So I want to elaborate a little bit how I became passionate about this.

I grew up in Peru and I lost many of my neighborhood and dear friends to drugs, so to addiction.

And then due to work, I had the opportunity to discuss on a personal level, hear from experts in big tech, like mostly in the US and they would say, when you become a parent, do not give this to your children. So that stuck with me and that made me become very aware about this.

So when I became a mom, I was observing all the time wherever I went wherever I traveled, in any setting I was watching. And that validated those concerns brought up to me by this text expert, tech experts. So then I continued doing research.

Then I had the opportunity to be at a rehab center. And that was a few years ago. And that's where I learned how the brain work.

And I put all this started falling into place and then that triggered more interest in doing research and following more and more data on it. And there have been documentaries about this for a long time. And my hope was when my daughter gets to that age, this trend has to change, right?

Like you know when they with cigarettes, right? You remember those times where everybody would be smoking, even, even my parents would be smoking with the children around and all that.

And then I'm like, okay, that time needs to arrive. But it really took longer and longer.

And that's when I was very lucky that I ran into, wait until 8 the movement in the US they had launched a pledge several years ago. And then I connected with their founder, Brooke Shannon, a lovely person. And I asked her, you know, I want to sign the pledge.

I feel like I wanted, I wanted to feel like I was doing something about it because reading was one thing, trying to talk about it was another one. Knowing stuff or trying to make sense of things wasn't one thing.

But then signing the pledge would take a minute or two and it would empower me to feel like I had a voice and I was taking the power back. But I couldn't take that step because wait until it was only in the US and that's when I tried.

I hire a marketing expert, like a branding expert. She came out with the name Complex and all, everything, the branding, all that. And then developers, completely out of my league.

I am an old school person. And then all the idea is good. Sometimes ignorance can be a blessing. And then there is this pledge. It's not just a website.

There is a whole database of schools, thousands of schools in the database. So when the pledge is sign, they can connect other parents in the same grade in the same school.

And there is information of almost 700 schools across Canada and there are almost 4,000 pledges so far. So it was a lot of Work.

And then the website went live in mid May last year, but it was not officially launched until brooke Shannon from wait until 8 came to Canada to be our guest speaker and along with other professionals and experts in the sector, then we did the official launch of Unplugged Canada in West Vancouver on September 14th of last year.

Congratulations, Jenny, on all of those efforts, because it's not everybody that takes something that they're passionate about and actually can execute the action around it. So it is really so interesting to hear you describe it. I want to unpack several things that you just shared there.

When you talk about having been around tech experts and them telling you to keep your child away from this in the future, was there a particular story that they shared with you or a particular statistic that you said to yourself, wow, that really got my attention?

I would say there are two. I mean, it has been such a long journey. But I remember the software engineer in the US and he felt ashamed of what he was doing. He was not happy.

He's like, I make money, but I'm not happy with what I'm doing. And I want to change. And we talk about my business, my work is immigration. We talk about coming to Canada and doing something different.

And then as we talk more in the personal level, I was. I was curious about it. I was interested to learn, okay, what is happening.

And then he shared what you can now see in all these documentaries that have been around for several years. Then the second time that I felt, okay, this goes beyond even my understanding.

This is darker than what I even imagined, was that a young person that I'm. I was a mentor to, maybe 21 years old, he. He wanted to have a conversation with me. And we had a conversation. And then he. He was very upset.

And I said, what. What is happening? He said, I. I lost my Instagram account. And I said, what? You look. So I. And I don't have. I. I mean, now I have a very inactive one.

But at that time, I didn't even understand, okay, I lost my Instagram account, so all my life is gone. He said that. And I couldn't understand why he would say something like that. And this was years ago. My life is gone.

And I said, I'm sorry, are you talking about, like a Facebook account? Jenny is. All my photos, my connections, all these followers, they are gone. And I don't know what to do. And he was so distressed.

I said, you cannot start again. You cannot create a new one, Jerry. That took me so much effort, so much time, and I'm fighting.

And he shared that he was fighting suicidal thoughts because of that. So when he said that, really, I couldn't understand. And then that triggered more curiosity.

And that's when even in the school, when my daughter attends a small school, they gave her an iPad or they tried to give her an iPad when she was in kindergarten. I said, why is it needed? I mean, why is it needed? And I question it. And they said, well, it's just the way it is now.

I said, well, you try very hard to keep your kids with books and painting and doing colors and just keep things simple at home. And then you take them to, to school hoping that they are going to just socialize with kids and then why die?

But at five years old and they would just say, it's just the way it is now. And for me, that was not enough. It was not a valid answer. So I challenged the system. I challenged the school system in my district year after year.

But then I realized that it was a difficult battle because as time passed where I hope that the tech companies would lose power, they actually were gaining more and more power because they were promoted among parents and in society as progress, as innovation. But I'm like, do we really need to do that with a five year old or a six year old?

And that's where all that passion and frustration led me to say, okay, I cannot just complain. I need to do something. And here, here we are. Yeah.

You also talk about comparing social media to smoking. Do you believe that comparing, you know, this, what we're talking about here, which is quote the new tobacco to social media, is a fair comparison?

For sure, no doubt. And I know this is a sensitive topic and I know that there are different opinions.

I know this is a difficult conversation to have, but I think with all the research that I've done, and this is not me, Jenny Perez, saying this, I'm just the mother that started this movement. But you would be impressed with the leaders and experts that are behind this movement. They endorse the movement, they see it, they live it.

And if we just think about it, if we take a moment to think about it, anything that can be harmful to a child is not allowed. Simple. Even a toy, anything. But at some point in time, years and years ago, it's not like only two or three years.

It's like more than a decade ago, these devices were sold like they are anything, like a book. And nobody really knows what is in it because parents we trust.

Okay, if it's sold to a child or if it can be sold to anybody, then it's because it's okay. And if it's accepted also by the system, by the school, by every. Then it's okay. Right.

So it's sad that the marketing and the hunger for profits has blinded tech companies to cross the line and go not only after us adults, but go after children because they hook them from very early age. And just a few years ago, there was data that they made $11 billion just from usage of users younger than 18. $11 billion. That was years ago.

So why this doesn't stop? Because they are probably one of the most powerful sectors in the world. And yeah, it's a. We feel like a little mouse with a big goliad there.

But same as with tobacco. It was so normalized and that it would be. You could not imagine a mother smoking next to a child.

I hope and I believe that sooner than later these devices and social media are going to become like, we're going to talk about it in a few years and say, I can't believe we let that happen to our children. I can't believe we just, we didn't speak up about it.

So, yeah, so I strongly believe because as I said before, my understanding of addiction is so there are, believe it or not, rehab centers already for social media users, for smartphone users. So it's treated as an addiction. Whether people feel that that is a strong word, I don't have a problem saying it. Some people say call it dependence.

It's addiction, what we are seeing. And you can see it, you can just see it when you walk. Children, when you want to take them away from it, they don't know what to do with themselves.

It's like their life is taken away from them. So, yeah, so definitely I hope that the government and, and a lot of healthcare organizations are already working very hard to change the norm.

And we as parents, we want to support them. So that's what's unplugged. We want to support the hard work of professionals and experts already that I want to change the norm.

We want to say we're here for you and with you in this journey.

You talk about the science which has existed, the research has existed for a long time. It's pretty stark findings when we talk about smartphones, social media and young people.

And you know, the other piece here is in many families, it's a disconnect for a lot of parents, depending on the generation they're from. Although I would argue that that's getting smaller and smaller because social media is everywhere and everyone seems to have A smartphone.

What would you say to a parent who maybe is part of that disconnected group about how kids are getting hooked the algorithms? You know, you talk about the tech people that you, that you dealt with.

How would you explain that to a parent in terms of the sense of urgency that is needed to treat this issue?

I will try. I will try because I have so much information in my, in my head. But people have asked, what is the right age to give this to a child?

So there is no consensus.

But the psychologists say to me, when you, when you are okay with your child seeing pornography, that is an age that you can, okay, if you feel comfortable, your, your child can handle that, then maybe that's the age where you can give, when you can give a smartphone, can you repeat your question about the disconnection? Like, can you, can you, can you explain that to me again? So I want to answer.

Well, for, for parents who don't quite understand how they get hooked, what are these social media or media tech companies doing that the average person doesn't understand?

Yeah. Okay, so the. We don't pay for this. So when we don't pay for it, we are the product.

When we give a smartphone to a kid, they have access to browsers and social media. They don't pay anything for that because they are the product.

What tech companies are doing is they are gathering information, they are profiling our children and they profile ourselves. I think we already know that. We already know that as long as we look up for something in our browser, then more information starts coming up. So what?

Some parents, some parents that resist these, you know, these statements are because, oh, I use, I had a cell phone and it was not a big deal. But it, it has changed. So 10 years ago, there was no endless scrolling. So 10, 10 plus years ago, the selfies were not around.

So the algorithms themselves have grown at a pace that we cannot even. They grow, that we cannot even understand. So what they do is when your child clicks somewhere, they are already profiling your child.

And then they give more context, content and content to your child to get your child hooked. And the saddest part for me is, well, harmful content comparison. Oh, it's, it's so dark. So dark.

I mean, I follow lawsuits and all over the world and I. It's really sad what's going on because people don't talk about it. Suicidal rights. People just don't talk about it.

But then, besides, that is the privacy concerns. Everything that is there, tech companies have it from our kids. Then what is your kid not doing?

With that time, if you think, oh, it's only two or three hours that kids are on smartphones a day, well, why? They are not doing. They are not socializing with their cousins or their neighbors or their classmates. They are not spending time doing homework.

They are not spending time with us parents.

They actually listening to influencers and other, you know, that when these are the treasure years when we should be the biggest influencers to our kids, nobody's there. Right. We don't. So I don't know if that answers the question, but that's what I would say from parent to parent.

Yeah, it absolutely does. Because there are different situations in every household. Some people feel strongly about it, others less so.

There's a difference sometimes between mother and father or, you know, that dynamic as well. Another stumbling block in a lot of families is parents seeing other parents giving their kids access to phones and devices at an early age.

And so the idea of wanting to not be different and then giving in to their own child. What would you say to parents in that category?

So I'm black Hannah. We understand that these is a controversial and sensitive topic, even though it shouldn't be.

The evidence is there, but we want to create awareness of this and leave to parents decide what is best for their families. We are parents that want an alternative. So we are not here to judge. We want to share what we have learned. We want to share what experts are saying.

We want to share what we know not from a position of judgment, but from a position of community. Right. We're talking about children, talking about kids.

So if there are parents that prefer to give devices to their kids, that's fine, that's their decision. But I would like also them to respect our decision.

So Plaque Canada connects like minded parents and then we feel again that we're not alone and that we can have our kids bored together or just talking and chatting together. That's very powerful. And it takes a village.

Because what we feel, and I have reflected a lot about this, Leanne, is how these devices become so powerful. How did that happen? It's because parenting is so difficult. And that old school saying, it takes a village.

I come from South America and you have grandparents, cousins, the families there, one over each other talking and just you couldn't stop us from talking and from being together.

And it's interesting to see that in cultures in the north, these devices have got more traction because we want to be perceived that we are self sufficient, Paris, that we can do it all, that we're in control of the situation. But at Unplugged Canada. We actually believe that.

We recognize that we don't stand a chance against these devices, that they are more powerful than us. We are saying, let's get together. Let's band together to make change, to shift the culture and to do this, because I cannot do this alone.

And that's where the power of Unplaque now, I know so many parents that prefer their kids to be playing outside more and more and more. So we get together. So the parents drop their kids here. There's like a trust, underlying trust that we are helping each other.

And it's beautiful what I'm seeing in our neighborhood, in our school, in our class, in other communities. I think it's empowering, slowly, parents to say to their kids, you know, not for now, we can wait.

And we're going to do this because other kids are waiting too, and other parents are also willing to wait. And it's not easy. But when you know that you're doing this with other parents, it feels possible.

It's so interesting because on this podcast I've interviewed, I can't tell you how many people on different topics. And somehow we always end up talking about smartphones and social media.

And the impact, the fact is, is that we're in the middle of a global epidemic of youth mental health issues. We are also experiencing globally, you know, social isolation and loneliness among young people. That. That is unprecedented in numbers.

So all of these facts, in addition to the evidence and the science, is pointing us in one direction, and yet so many people still don't see that.

Is there a particular story, Jenny, that you can share about a family who has gone unplugged their child from these devices and seen the benefits of that, where may they may have started in the opposite direction?

Yeah, I mean, I can share multiple, multiple stories.

And I want to say that in this journey at Unplugged, we are tens of volunteer parents, and they all take time from their jobs and their families to work on this. And it's quite beautiful to see that.

And when Unplugged was launched, I thought, okay, I was launching this website, and then people could sign the pledge. And it's like, okay, here you are, take it. But then it was just the start. And more parents were like, I want to talk about.

I want to share this with you. And there were. There's stories every week from Bi to Vancouver, all across Canada, sad stories, happy stories.

And I remember one mom that called me and said, oh, I went to the speaker event. Like, I saw the launch of Unplugged and she said, I didn't think it was that bad, but now I need to talk to you.

And she shared that her daughter had a smartphone because it's common in their circle, and that she thought it was fine. She thought she was monitoring it. But unfortunately, she had received threats, and it escalated to cyberbullying.

She didn't know if she should report to the rcmp. She didn't know what to do about it. It didn't matter. It didn't matter how she talked to her daughter.

Her daughter couldn't stop crying because people that children, kids that she didn't even know were saying horrible things to her and even calling her. And even the mom had answered the phone, like, why are you doing this? And then even kids would be. Because nobody can see them.

They would say horrible things to their mom. And then the mom realized what is happening. How. How is this happening? And then he's like.

And then she started realizing that the majority of contacts in her daughter's phone, she had no idea who they were. They were friends of friends. And because kids believe that by having more followers or more contacts, they are more popular. They just let everybody.

But then she was very upset. She said, I get it now. And that's the part that it makes me sad sometimes, because people don't get it until it happens to them.

And what unplugged is about is being proactive. It's about preventing.

Because there are a lot of organizations that deal with the problem afterwards, and that's great, but we should take the step ahead and then say, you know, we can delay this and buy more time until their brains are more developed. But she said, is it too late? Is there hope for my child? She said to me. And I said, of course. Of course there is. Said, of course there is. This is.

This is. This is life. This is a lesson we all learn. Talk to your child. Be there with your child. Thank you for talking to me. You can trust me.

We can talk about it. You are not alone. And it's like, what do you think about taking this? Like, well, talk to your child. Do you think she.

Maybe she will understand now that she doesn't want that? And many kids, actually, because now we talk also with the youth, and we are going to launch something for the youth and.

And a movement for the youth. Many, many young people say, I wish my parents hadn't given me this. I wish my parents.

I wish this was not around, because these things make them very vulnerable at a very young age when they cannot cope. So I tell everybody I'm. I strongly believe, strongly believe that you can always change things. There's always hope.

It takes work, it takes people, it takes love, it takes the support of your community, your family. But everything is possible. Yeah.

You talked earlier about the pledge being something that empowered you. Take us through what your vision for Unplugged Canada is and what the pledge could mean for families.

Well, I would love to see. We are close to 4,000 pledges and we don't have big marketing campaigns. It's all volunteer parents.

I would love to see tens of thousands of pledges next year and I would love to see more coordinated efforts among different institutions so there is consistency and by working together, we can make change together. I think Black Cana is the voice of Paris and is this grassroots movement. We want change in the culture and we believe it's possible.

We are known for profit, but we want to be there. For example, I just come from leaving almost 1,000 signatures in paper in the last three weeks. We gathered them.

They are signatures supporting a petition on paper. Before connecting with you, I actually came from leaving those signatures with my.

A Member of Parliament, Patrick Wyler, who has agreed to sponsor this petition in the House of Commons next month.

So I want to support the healthcare organizations and experts and researchers and the university PhDs that are investing so much time in trying to prove this to show we are here with you. And that's what I actually. Part of me wishes that in two years we don't need Unplugged anymore because things will have changed by then.

There will be proper regulation of this social media, these devices.

There will be more awareness campaigns and it will be easier for parents to make a decision, an informed decision, and then Unplugged will not be needed. That's how I see it. Yes.

On that note, if you want parents to take one thing away from our conversation today, what would that be?

Do your own research. Take a small step. I would recommend maybe read a book. The one book that I like the best was the Anxious Generation from Jonathan Haidt.

I would say watch a documentary. The one that I recommend is a childhood 2.0 and then talk about it. And it doesn't need to be big.

Find a friend or a relative that you can talk about this and then you say, can we do things this way? Then if you feel more empowered, then take this to your. Pack your school and just start talking about it.

Given your background, Jenny, how far do you think we are away from policymakers, governments, people in those positions of making influential impactful decisions. How far are we away from this topic being addressed at that level?

Oh, wow. That's a very good question. Because I can be impatient. I'm a doer, and I have had to accept that these things take time.

But I think we're gonna get there. But, like, everything that is. That is worthy or that, things like that, they take time.

Like, if you remember with tobacco, it took more than a decade. And, you know, I'm a Rotarian. I'm. I went. I presented the Rotary Club, like, a few months ago, and they are, you know, wiser, more mature, wiser.

They have been there and they said, finally, Jenny, we're talking about this because this is happening again. It's like there are companies that are just there for profit and they don't care enough about the consequences.

And I said, oh, I'm getting so frustrated because I want this to change quickly. And they said, accept it is going to take time, but keep doing it. Don't give up. And the message is the same for parents.

We're going to get there step by step, slowly, but it's going to happen. Hopefully. Hopefully.

If it wasn't for the tariffs taking so much attention from our policymakers, now I trust that our leader and their team is gonna prioritize our children. It's time. We are. It's. It's been way too long. Like, I've talked with Carol Todd, who is. You need to recaro Todd.

Carol Todd was one of the victims, first victims. And I remember seeing that YouTube video back there, like, more than 12 years ago.

And I cannot understand that more than 12 years later, things haven't changed.

I think the time is here, and I trust that there are a lot of parents there as well in the House of Commons, and they are going to reflect and they are going to understand that this has to be now one of the priorities for the government.

Lots of very important food for thought. Jenny Perez, founder of Unplugged Canada, thank you so much for your time and your insight today.

Thank you. Thank you very much. To learn more about today's podcast, guest and topic, as well as other parenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com.