TA Ep. 209 FINAL

What are some of the powerful shifts they might be seeing for individuals going on these retreats? And so a quick introduction to Scott. Scott Berman is the founder of Sky Cave Retreats, the first darkness retreat center in the US Throughout the last decade, he has spent over two years in self-guided solo retreats in remote wilderness.

I was so excited to explore a number of different facets from this, and what I have to say, as you guys will see from the conversation, is I loved Scott's nuanced approach. To this two retreats. There's no, there's no ego involved in this. We talk a lot about how my depth, psychological approach and the way that I work with clients in connecting with the psyche, connecting with the unconscious is very gentle and gracious.

Like I, you know, I'm, I'm so much more committed because I forced myself to do this really hard thing. And so he talks about how there are so many different ways they support guests. In these darkness retreats, and it just absolutely blew my mind. It's something I would love to do myself at some point. Um, and I think you guys are gonna be totally blown away by this.

So we talk about just what is it? What is a darkness retreat? What does his, what his facilities look like? What can someone expect when they first arrive on site? And over the next couple of days, how they take such a nuanced approach, how it can still be something that is incredibly supportive for someone even like myself, who's experienced trauma, particularly sexual abuse trauma.

Thanks for having me. My coordinator Kelly, who coordinates booking all the guests, which is such a gift, I, I sent her your guys' page on Instagram. I've followed you for a while, and I was like, this would be such a fun conversation to have, because I see the posts that go up for Skype, cave retreats, retreats and, and just kind of the experience people are having.

Some of your own experiences? Yeah. Um, in short, when, in my early twenties or late teens, I had, uh. A painful breakup that led to more like a, a disillusionment with kind of, I mean, it actually more led to a freeze response that ultimately that then led to a disillusionment with the world. Um, so I guess I couldn't say it was a totally, um, inside out disillusionment, but regardless, it led to a, it led to a turning inwards.

And yet now, like, and, and I'll go backwards, but fast forwarding to now, what we notice is a lot of people who have turned towards spirituality is a way to make the, their self feel better. Mm-hmm. And not there's anything wrong with that. Everyone wants, you know, I, I want myself to feel better too. And, um, does feel, is feeling better more important than the truth that I don't feel good?

We've done our best to pull anything on the website that would even allude to saying that the darkness is a healing, transformational awakening experience. Like that's not our orientation. That tends to be a byproduct of being honest with what's real that happens on its own. We're not here to wake in, heal or transform anyone or even really necessarily move towards that.

Kind of orienting in a way of not really ever processing or being with those parts that were hurt and kind of mm-hmm. And grasping almost like, which I notice a lot in myself historically and others who come that spirituality can take like, uh, it can be moved through our very western lens of something to accomplish something, to achieve something, to, to, to get that's great and grand and we're gonna like, feel good about ourselves when we get there, and all those things.

And that was totally my journey for probably about 20 years in that. And I started spending a lot of time alone. Um, I'd spend for about seven years, for about three to six months every year I'd be alone up in the mountains in southern Baja, north of Cabo. There was this magical little oasis that I'd discovered.

He was a vet who had PTSD. He would go into a room with a little red light and found it really soothing for his nervous system. And somebody said to him, you know, this is like an ancient Tibetan Buddhist practice. Why don't you turn out the light and see what the dark's like? And so that was his kind of movement into it.

Um, and there was a sincere thread in there that knew something deeper, that there was something more meaningful than kind of the material world. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I did my first dark retreat with my wife in 2012. We blacked out our house. We went in for five days and I was quite moved by the experience.

And so then I went back down to Baja on this land where I would spend some of my time before going. Um, as I transitioned up and down the mountains there and I helped finish build this little small earth bag dome that was, uh, underground. We built like a few steps underground. It was an eight foot diameter dome, and I spent 10 days in there for my first.

Uh, and not like channeling people through and like attempting them to have a certain kind of experience because then you're kind of missing what's actually happening for people in there. And the nature of humans is that like we look to others to validate our worth. I mean, a little baby is looking to its parents all the time.

95% of people aren't gonna be able to access the parts that are afraid, the parts that don't like it, the parts that are lonely. Because if they're having a transformational healing experience, the person on the outside's going to be happy and proud. They're going to feel that. And so there's going to be some level of performing it and there's gonna be some level of kind of manufacturing it, but also kind of feeling it to be real.

And so we're constantly doing less in a sense. Mm-hmm. I mean, even it's been a whole process for us of desing, the process of somebody coming out of the dark, of turning on the light. And we have a whole process that we go through with people because longer is not deeper. Mm-hmm. The longer someone stays in the dark is not deeper.

We actually tend to find that it tends to be the opposite because it can be severely dysregulating and if somebody like through and through. Doesn't have the permission to come out of the dark different than somebody being like, you can come out. But there's like a whole process around that. It's actually not a failure that doesn't, and still some people are like, I came here to do this thing.

And, and, and I stayed that too. I mean, I guess I like. Um, people who maybe like wear the, like a badge of how long they've gone in the dark tends to be maybe a sign that it's very much in the capitalistic western mindset and most likely kind of missed mark of depth and quality over like, uh, quantity and some sense of like conquering.

Totally shifted how we do things here. As I started to witness what was happening and as she supported me in actually attuning to what was happening for people as to, as opposed to overlaying what I wanted to happen for people. Mm-hmm. I stopped going in for 10 days because I was like, whoa. I probably managing my experience and having these hidden ways of kind of enduring and getting through that I didn't realize.

And which is very common. We find a lot of, most of the long-term meditators who come, whether they're 15, 20 years practicing Tibetan Buddhists or whatever their meditation is, most of them, the majority of them find that they're not able to really do their practices in there and have an incredibly hard time, in many cases, much harder than somebody who has no meditation experience.

And we can kind of explore that as we go on. Yeah. And that really hit me, like, I was like, why, why is this so hard? I'm like, on paper, one of the more prepared people to like go into the dark in terms of amount of time and solitude and meditation experience and it didn't matter. And I, we come to find 600 people in it doesn't matter.

I don't know what it is. And like, I wanna build a dark retreat. And so six years later, five years later, we landed on where we're at in southern Oregon. And the intention was just to build a dark retreat for myself. And I thought I could convince a few friends to come. Like, it wasn't like, let's set out on a, a healing business venture.

And we have not in five and a half years taken off the blackout shades that we put on the windows. As we're easing outta summer, whenever we come into a seasonal change, I always like to do a number of different cleanses, and for me, quarterly parasite cleansing is a staple in my wellness habits, my wellness routine.

I've seen so many different types of parasite cleansing kits and supplements. I've tried a good chunk of many of them. But the one that I think is the easiest to use and the most comprehensive is Rogers Hood Apothecary. I actually had Kim Rogers on the podcast a few weeks ago, if you missed that conversation.

And for me, what really stood out is a lot of parasite cleansing kits are kind of falling into one of two categories, either A, they're. Going directly after the parasites, but there's no binding or supportive nutrients, or B, it's more supportive nutrients and not enough things that actually go after the parasites.

So check the show notes below and use discount code Leann 10 for a discount, a checkout. Wow. I love that. Okay. There are so many things I wanted circle back to and weave in and touch in deeper with. 'cause there's so much gold in what you're saying here. What I do wanna start with though is what I love, you know, you're talking about, I, I say I've done these 10 day retreats.

It's not to toot my own horn. What I love is I, I have to do the same thing. I have to have the experience before I can really share or even try and tell someone else about it. Anything that I've ever recommended to a client, it's something I've experienced and tried and done myself, and it completely just changes the way that I approach that.

And that's part of what you bring to everyone who's coming to your retreat. So I really love that. And I just think more than anything, it speaks to that embodied experience you yourself have had. And that brings a knowing that goes far beyond just an intellectual understanding of a process, I think.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, and on that, like in short, the first two years, it was just me like being with people here and all I had was my own experience. And at that time I didn't have much of a capacity to really attune to I, I mean, I didn't really have much of a capacity to really attune to myself because I was so focused on the idea of how I thought I should be.

Are people afraid? I would be like, no, no one's really afraid. Everyone's having these amazing transformational times. That's what everyone was telling me. That's what I was seeing. That's what I was expecting. That's the container I was holding. And then Adrian joined me, who I've known for over 15 years, and she is incredibly perceptive and she, she resides at a very deep part of her being and a really simple, humble way.

Like that person was actually in freeze. They were completely shut down. Their nervous system was totally dysregulated, and they were having an unbelievably challenging time the entire time. And they were in the most of the time, they were in the dark. And that would happen person after person, after person.

And it was like, whoa, I'm, I'm totally missing something. Mm-hmm. And it took for a while. I mean, Adrian felt for a while in the beginning, like, I don't know if it's actually good for people to go in the dark. Like it is very dysregulating for the nervous system. It's different now because of how we've evolved and refined the offering, the support, the pre and the post, the whole container.

Like if anyone got put in a wide open meadow in the middle of the night, even if they had all the armor and all the ammunition, they're gonna be on guard. Mm-hmm. They may not say that they're afraid, they may not even be aware that they're afraid, but they're on guard because there's a potential threat.

It, it, it's, that has completely to do with someone's orientation. That's like saying, go meet this, go meet this person and they're gonna make you feel happy and relaxed and calm. It's like there's no universal human that does that for everybody. Right. And especially the darkness, which like at a really, at our animal level, it's actually stimulating.

We rely on our visual field. To kind of confirm in the moment that we're safe, there's the boundaries. Like it is if somebody was right up in our face, we would feel really uncomfortable, and the darkness is right up in your face. And so there is a response in the nervous system of fear. There is a threat.

You're going to go into fight, flight, and freeze. You're going to endure in some way, or you're going to like. You, you're gonna go numb and then you might draw on your positive positivity or whatever it is. And so what I was interacting with those first two years was mostly people's survival patterns and their safety strategies ranging from really calm and relaxed.

Yeah. And so now our entire orientation with people is again, is not rooted in healing, transforming, fixing, changing, because that has somebody kind of being at odds with what's here. It's more supporting someone and seeing for themselves. When they're overwhelmed, when they're scared, when they're uncomfortable, what it's like to start to move beyond your capacity, what it's like to then turn towards nurture.

And so in those early days, Adrian was sharing all that and she started to build a map over the years of what was actually happening for people in there and then how we could start to support people. And that started to shift. And so it's been a real evolution over the years of Yeah. Of how we're with people and people's experiences in there.

Sure. But one thing I will just, I expand on what you said really quickly is. There's kind of a couple things I'm hearing. One I do wanna touch on, you know, you can feel, like you said, there's a feeling of like, I'm, I'm trapped. It's inescapable. And that I think can be a reiteration of old wounds they've experienced in the past of, I experienced something that I had no autonomy to protect myself from.

And to that end, there's kind of two things I'm hearing in this, maybe modes of mechanism, if you will, of one. I do think just the power of being in a room, and we'll talk more about this without all the common. What I would call soothes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or even distractors. Sure. The phone, the tv, the books, all the things.

In some ways when, when we quiet all the soothes, to your point, that that tension comes up, that hurt comes up, that discomfort comes up, and you guys totally have a depth psychological approach to this, which is there's communication in that. That's not just like a negative thing that we're trying to get rid of, actually.

Sometimes that's 80% of the battle. It's not so much like, and I need you to solve this for me right away. There's so much safety and peace I see comes in for people when that inner self is allowed to just speak freely and uninhibited without us trying to jump in and immediately expand it with positivity or hope or all the good things, right?

Mm-hmm. That are also powerful. So there's that. There's, I'm, I'm separated from all my normal soothes and that's giving me this opportunity to listen and dialogue with and relate to my inner self in maybe a much more intentional, deep way. And on the flip side of that, there's just the experience itself of being in darkness and the activation that can create that might shed a light on with even more specificity.

Totally. And, and I think like if and when Dark Retreat gets presented as this healing, transformational kind of awakening, it's gonna, however it is that I've, as I've perused some of the other newer dark retreats, how it's presented and even sometimes like have the DMT experience that has somehow got associated with Dark Retreat, which we have found.

It's, it's not a peak experience and it's a little misleading. And we do say it on our website where we let, where we, um, show all the mask off reveals is that these are misleading. This portray, this portrays a peak experience. Someone is coming out of the dark for days. Like there's a huge dopamine surge.

Then we kind of miss what this actually looks like right now. Mm-hmm. So to share more about what the actual experience is like, um, after having people come for all varying lengths of time, especially in the early days, it was kind of like. I don't really know. I mean, it was just me. I was like, I don't really know what I'm doing.

Then it's like, okay, I've got like five days, or 10 days or 20 days. Like it's really overwhelming and people. People who are going in even for, for two or three days, like they already notice they're strategizing how they're gonna fill the day. Yeah. And so one of the things we start to turn towards is that's totally fine, strategize and just perhaps acknowledge what's happening.

And people come for 24 hours before and after. So five days, six nights, somebody arrives in the afternoon. Um, a, a new edition is, which I had some resistance to initially just due to my more like, um, historical, colder, masculine, spiritual orientation. But Adrian, after she kept, uh, pressing, we, we now have man coloring books.

I mean, people love art, but that's, you know, to say like that, um, to, but for many people, like that's not a thing. And it's just like this full on, like how long I'm sitting and meditating, how long I'm in the darkness equals how deep I'm gonna go or how awake I'll be or whatever the thing is. And so we have these things now that support people in those first 24 hours to slow down, to do nothing special, to just really land in the space.

And then there are these kind of, the coloring books, the puzzles, the journaling prompts. And um, and they have, they may, most people don't usually go into the dark that first day, but they'll go in that night. Mm-hmm. So we encourage people to go into the dark that first night, and then come out sometime the next morning, like to get a taste of what the darkness is like.

We all know we need to stay hydrated, and yet it's still something that most of us struggle with. And for many of us, it's not because we're not drinking enough water, it's because we're not getting enough electrolytes and without replacing them. And here's the thing. Dehydration isn't just uncomfortable in the short term.

Over time, it can start to impact your focus. Slow down your recovery, strain your heart, and even contribute to inflammation throughout the body, which is why I'm obsessed with buoy electrolytes. Most electrolyte drinks are full of sugar. Artificial sweeteners, dyes, synthetic minerals grown in a lab, but buoy electrolytes are completely different.

But you can add these electrolytes to any drink so it works seamlessly into your daily routine. Your water, your smoothies, your tea, your coffee. No ripping open powders or dealing with nasty ingredients. And do you guys know, I love brands that are willing to. Invest in the research to prove the impact of their products.

And buoy is clinically proven to be 64% more hydrating than water alone. 49% more hydrating than leading electrolyte brands and delivers 10 times more positive fluid balance. They even have specialized blends that support more specific areas of health beyond just hydration, like their brain health drops, digestion, immunity, and energy.

Or they sit outside or they turn on the light. They light a candle. We have these little, um. Book lights, you know, that clipp to a book with a red light. We have those in there as a way, we call it like the pressure release valve. Mm-hmm. Um, because enduring and inescapable threat really does nothing for somebody, but reinforce their survival patterns and, and safety strategies that we do in the world.

So we really like are with people in a way that support them to notice those things. So there's that little light. So in that day. Of people weaving in and out. They may light the candle, they may turn on the light, they may step out. There's, um, that's kind of whatever feels right for them. Mm-hmm. And then that day there's usually a, a two hour session with Adrian.

So that really prepares someone for the time in the dark. Yeah. And then that night, Tuesday night, they would go into the dark. And so three days, four nights in the dark. I'm coming up every morning and evening and there's a check-in where we hear, we talk through the door, through the wall. It may be 10 minutes, it may be for an hour.

It's just kind of whatever is appropriate to what's happening. And so the person would be in the dark Tuesday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night, and then Saturday morning they'd emerge from the dark. And then that day, the next 24 hours is the time for integrating. We have a sauna, uh, except during the summer months.

Still stimulated or stimulated in the backdrop kind of landing in what they've come to newly know, um, things like that. And then the next day, morning, Sunday morning, um, they would leave. Mm-hmm. And so there a couple more things just to give you more of a picture of the room. Like there's, there's a flushing toilet, there's a sink, there's a bathtub for hot baths.

Um, there's one of these chairs, like a reclining zero gravity chair, a weighted blanket. There's a foam roller and a yoga mat. There's like a low table where with cushion, um, there's the bed, there's the Tibetan singing bowl, and there's the food box where we pass food through. So it's kind of like a double closet cabinet door, if you will.

Is it that level and you just kind of adjust? Or is it sort of like there's just very, very low grade lighting, but it's still reflecting that darkness? Yeah. Um, your eyes never adjust to see your hand in front of your face. Wow. So it is total darkness. And surprisingly, most people report that. They find, they, they get around the room and attend to all kind of the, the essentials with ease.

That was the easier part. I had something to do too, when you're moving about the room. Totally. So it tends to be one of the few activities of, uh, of the day. Yeah. Yeah. I love all of this, by the way. I just have to say in in depth psychology mandalas are like incredibly important. And Carl Young would say the mandala is a way that like psyche comes through and the unconscious comes through art, drawing, sand play, movement, all these things.

So I love that you, I don't know if it was intentional or unconscious, like have weaved in sort of these practices that actually helped the unconscious and that inner psyche mm-hmm. Start to be able to come out and express a couple things. I wanna highlight more. I really appreciate the transition into the darkness where they come for that first day.

And I think to your point. Letting that ego wash through and harder isn't better. Mm-hmm. And more abrupt isn't necessarily better. And I actually think being able to give the mind, body, and spirit, that gentle transition in that gentle transition out makes it much more fruitful and, and kind of impactful and, and so that the bo mind, body, and spirit actually can metabolize and then integrate and embody that experience.

I am particularly interested in someone who's coming with maybe more severe trauma history. I'll, I'll actually just speak for myself and I'll tell you the resistance that comes up in my mind. 'cause everything about the Sky Cave retreats, I'm like, this feels like such a nourishing experience. And then there's a very fearful little inner girl in me who's like, that feels really scary.

It sounds like I could be able to chat with her and go, Hey, here's what I'm nervous about. Here's some of my history. When I get frazzled, here's what I do. And she might be able to talk me through. Yeah, here's more of what you personally might experience and how you might navigate that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, and you know, we've, I mean, I wasn't aware, and maybe it's just the audience who's been coming, but there's been an incredible amount of people who have come through here who have had sexual abuse history and trauma.

And uh, someone's gone in the dark already a bit before the session, so there's like context of like, right, what was like, there's a bit of a sense of how it was and it's really, you know, for when, I just think of a few of the people who come to mind who have had sexual abuse trauma and it happened in the dark and they came here in the dark.

It was different. Like they weren't, um, the darkness was not, it, it didn't stimulate the fear that they thought it would. Yeah. These specific people that I, that come to mind, and for some of 'em it actually had it, like where it completely flipped it for them, where all the, because they had related to the dark in a certain way because of that trauma.

And what we've discovered is for some people, one of the most life-changing things they can do is step out of the dark. And that's been, for some who have done that, who have kind of fit into that [00:50:00] category, it's completely changed. Uh, a program, uh, an unconscious way that they endure difficulty when they've been in and inescapable threat and they've learned to like freeze, unconsciously freeze and go numb and endure.

All of a sudden they've stepped out and it's like freed them in a way. And then those people, they, they tend to go back into the dark. Mm-hmm. And what's different and what's different is there's such a, a very clear difference of I want to be in the dark, as opposed to I should be in the dark. Yeah.

I have done so much research over the years into different nervous system tools, techniques, modalities, and honestly, the Apollo neuro wearable is the one that I come back to again and again. It's powerful, practical, and so easy to integrate into everyday life. What I love about Apollo is that it works through gentle, soothing vibrations.

They experienced up to 40% less stress and feelings of anxiety, and 19% more time in deep. Apollo also can help people fall asleep faster, feel more focused during the day. It can support an uplifted mood. Apollo is something I use every single day to support my nervous system, to make sure that I'm giving my body gentle safety signals all throughout the day to help me be more resilient, to help me recover faster, to help me sleep deeper, and it's something that I recommend to clients all the time because it's so gentle.

And the beliefs that get created might have been something like, there was nothing I could do, or there was something I could do but I didn't. And then maybe the guilt and the shame and the, the rupture with the self that comes from that. But then those beliefs get extrapolated onto everything, even present day.

Mm-hmm. And so I, I was hesitant to really strongly invite her to come out because the level of her seeing was so, it was so deep. But we had that conversation and she was a little hesitant 'cause she's like, but I don't wanna give into fear and discomfort. Like, I don't want to come out because like, I mean, she was, she was also like, it was an open conversation.

And then we, as we expect that more, she was like, oh, when I was younger it was really not a good situation at home. I was kind of the rock with my mom and I wanted to leave, but like, I, I didn't because I kind of, I had to be there. And, and now here she was in a situation where if she was honest, she wanted to leave, but she had a lot of ideas of why she should stay and all these things.

And once she told me that, I was like. You've like, we've gotta bring you out. Mm-hmm. And let's do it in a way where I said, just put the eye mask on and let me bring you, and you can sit outside and you can stay in the dark. Yeah. You don't have to come outta the dark. And I was like, think about it. You know?

Yeah. And for the rest of her time in there, she wove in and out of the dark. Sometimes she turned on the light. Sometimes she came out with the eye mask. I don't think she ever came out into the light. But she, when she would turn on the little red light or light the candle when she was in the room, like she found a way.

'cause we've seen how it plays out. And so whether it's being more direct to invite somebody to come out or more direct to really ask somebody or just the different nuances because everyone's so different. And ultimately. We're just here to support people and them discovering from the inside out, what kind of brings the deepest felt sense of safety and connection.

And I always like to talk about how the unconscious, the inner self, the psyche is. Only ever here to protect us and relate to us. And so that example you gave of the woman being like, but it's the fear. I don't wanna give into the fear. And so it has all these kind of underlying negative connotations to it, rather than actually that fear is probably like the 10-year-old you who couldn't leave her mom.

And I think it completely changes the way we empathize and relate to that part that's surfacing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so often the, I know we're staying away from this word, but the healing or the repair or the, I like the word expansion. Comes from being able to give that part, whether it's an angry part, a fearful part, a guilty part, the response it couldn't have mm-hmm.

And then those things, the healing, the transformation happens. Um, but it's a, we find it to be a slippery slope because, like you had said, then it becomes a, it becomes more about fixing what's bad or feeling good as opposed to being with what's real. Mm-hmm. What's here? Yeah, completely. I think a closing question I do wanna bring in is, is there anyone that you would say this is not for or not for right now?

Um, them like dipping their toes in and like weaving in and out could be fine, but like there is a real, what it actually is, we don't know, but there is a real brain chemistry shift that happens while someone's in the dark. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of melatonin that gets produced in the beginning. And so people do tend to sleep a lot.

They're very sleepy. And so to the point of some dark retreats that present, this is really relaxing and rejuvenating like it can be in the very beginning because of all the melatonin production. Mm-hmm. For many people, in the very beginning it is, it's restful. Not, not everyone, 'cause some people freak out the moment they step in, so, but for some people there is a lot of melatonin and it's very relaxful and rejuvenating.

And likely to some kind of brain chemistry shift. And there's some people who see lights and visuals and orbs and all those things that can tend to happen as the dark retreat goes on a bit, but it doesn't have to. We just had someone here a couple weeks ago and he had the most visual psychedelic experience of anyone who's ever been here.

Because what they've discovered in the dark is through the subtleties, is through the simplicity. They're able, one's able to attune to these deeper levels of nuances in the subtleties and the delicacies and the softness. And like, if there's these flashing strobe lights and glowing lights, they tend to, people find them really distracting.

Mm-hmm. Um, so it's not like some people are like, I'm coming for the lights. And it's like, well, most people don't get them. And most people who get them want them to go away. And, um, so there is, uh, oh, now I remember your question. Um, so people, because of the brain chemistry shifts, like people who have manic episodes and things like that, we tend to feel like probably not best.

You know, I don't, there's been, I can't think of like off the top of my head, any other kind of things like that where we would be like, that's just not, like we've had a full range of people who have had different kind of traumas, traumas that happened in the dark too. People who are claustrophobic or who have A-D-A-A-D-D who have, um, yeah.

All these different kind of things in their system. Mm-hmm. And many of 'em have been fine in the dark. And I think now the way of how we're continually evolving the unique approach to each person, we are able to meet someone where they're at. We did just have somebody here recently who had been hospitalized twice for, uh, psychotic breakdowns.

Yeah. When you are alone in the dark. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's so, it's so powerful. There's so many other threads I could take us down, but I think for now, to close it out for the audience, for anyone who's interested or wants to know more, where can they reach out? Where can they find more information? I'll make sure it's linked in the show notes too.

To be able to not just come at it from like a, an ego thing of, oh, we're all here doing this really hard thing and we're forcing ourselves through it. But really, really, I think, attuning to the psyche and the mind, body and spirit in a way. I'm, I'm super impressed with it. It is really, really cool to hear.

Awesome. Well thanks for having me here. It was great to, great to chat with you.