Welcome back to Lending Leadership: The Mortgage Pros!

In today’s episode, we’re talking to the last (but not least) of our co-hosts, Robert Fillyaw, managing partner at HMA Mortgage. Stepping in as host is Rachael Tresch of the Creative Brief, and I’m talking to Robert about leadership within mortgage lending, though the principles we discuss today are universally applicable.

We kick off with a discussion on the difference between leadership and management. Often confused with one another, we clarify that management is about processes, while leadership is about people. Robert passionately talks about servant leadership, emphasizing that true leadership involves serving and caring for your team members, not just directing them.

We then explore the critical traits of effective leaders. It’s not just about being in charge; it’s about being humble and leading by example. Effective leaders put their personal egos aside to better serve and guide their teams.

Robert shares his belief that leadership is a learned skill—a craft honed over time and experience. This segues into a conversation about nurturing young leaders by giving them opportunities to practice and develop their skills.

We also touch on the significance of vulnerability in leadership. Both of us agree that vulnerability allows leaders to accept criticism and challenges, fostering personal growth. Rachael brings up a thought-provoking quote about the transformative power of accepting truths about oneself.

As we conclude, Robert emphasizes putting your team members first is key to successful leadership. He shares insights from his career, backing this philosophy with real-life examples. We end the episode discussing the unique collaborative leadership model at HMA Mortgage, which likens their leadership structure to the checks and balances system, promoting accountability and aligned goals.

Five Key Takeaways:

1. Leadership vs. Management: We clarify that while management focuses on processes, leadership centers around people. Effective leadership is about serving your team and caring for their well-being.
2. Traits of Effective Leaders: Humility and leading by example are crucial. Leaders must set aside their personal ego to truly guide and support their team.
3. Leadership Development: Leadership is a learned skill developed through experience. Young leaders should be given opportunities to practice and refine their leadership abilities.
4. Vulnerability in Leadership: Accepting vulnerability is essential for strong leadership. It promotes personal growth by allowing leaders to accept criticism and challenges constructively.
5. Collaborative Leadership and Accountability: The leadership structure at HMA Mortgage emphasizes the importance of collaboration and accountability, keeping leaders aligned with common goals and preventing mistakes through mutual support.

Thank you for joining us on this enriching exploration of leadership. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more insightful episodes. Until next time, keep leading with integrity and care.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Lending Leadership. I get to be the host today. I'm Rach, and we've got Robert Fillyaw here. Robert, how are you, my friend?

Good. How are you? Good. I'm excited to, dive in here. Well, listen. I have not, read the questions in advance, so away we go.

You know, I think there's 2 kinds of people in this world. People who want to be overly prepared. Give me the questions. I need to see everything first. And I'm I'm kinda like you too. I'm like, let's let's just roll.

Seat of our pants. Let's see what we where we end up.

Yes. Flying by the seat of our pants. So okay. You know, obviously, this is a a show about leadership for mortgage loan officers, but I think a lot of what we talk about applies to really anyone in the leadership space. What do you think that people misunderstand or maybe misconstrue about leadership, you know, being in the position that you're in and leading a team, leading a company? Is is there a common misconception that that you would say?

Yeah. I think so. And I think, you know, to your point that this is kind of a universal topic that can really apply to to any business or, you know, any any situation is because leadership is universal. Right? I think where people mess it up is they get leadership confused with management. Right? And that that's where you like, management is is is for process. It is for the way something is done. It has nothing to do with people. You lead people.

You manage processes. And I think people get that mixed up a lot of times. Right? The other thing that I think when we talk about leadership is, like, a lot of people tend to miss the mark in the spirit of leadership. Leadership should be servant leadership. Like, the best leaders that I've ever experienced and the the leader that I try to be is by serving the other people, taking care of those in your charge, and and really leading them through difficult or or troubling situations being that example. But, ultimately, it comes down to being there to serve them and take care of them. And I think when when you look at people who are trying to manage people, they miss that piece of it. And it's it's more of like a self serving, you know, do what I say because I said instead of the leadership style, which is we're gonna do this because this is gonna be best for you and here's gonna be the end result that you benefit from.

I I really think that's a differentiation and mindset between the two styles and where people tend to get it get it kinda wrong. Yeah. You have to be I I think when we look around the, like, it it's almost an oxymoron to say. Right? Because leaders tend to be a little bit stronger personality, a little bit take charge more from the front, but the some of the best leaders are also very humble in the the like, when you really dig down to it, they're gonna take charge. They're gonna lead. They're, you know, they're gonna seem like your type a's, but they're also super humble to get their self out of the way to really take care of and serve those people that they're working with.

Yeah. That is very introspective. I mean, I I absolutely love that answer. I'm curious. Were you always, this clear on on the difference between that?

Absolutely not.

Uh-huh.

Not much. I mean, you know, the the that's the other thing, like, leadership is a habit. It's a trait. Right? It's like anything else. It's it's a learned behavior, and it no one starts off strong. You, you know, you develop into a leader over time, and, you know, some the things that you miss, the the weaknesses that you have are the things that help you grow and learn and hopefully become strengths in the future. You know, but this isn't this isn't you you don't just come out of the gate saying, oh, this is, you know, how I'm gonna lead. Now there are some match I do believe there's some natural tendencies of leaders.

Right? There's some of it is, nature, not all nurture. Right? And we get to that conversation. But a lot of leadership is nurture. It's learned. You know? So you can you can look at a disc chart or any of the, you know, Briggs, Meyer, any of those kind of situations out there and you can see some normalized traits amongst leaders, but the actual leadership, the skills, the style, the, you know, the the implementation of it, the the knowledge of it, the wrapping your arms around it, and really the building of your style, that's all learned behavior that comes over time, in situations. You know? That's why it's that's where experience really comes into play, because the more experiences, the more opportunity that you've had to lead, the stronger of a leader that you're gonna have the opportunity to be. Right? That's why we as we, you know, kinda sew into people and work to develop them and and bring them, you know, to whatever their goals in life are, you have to give them the opportunities. You know, you you have kids.

I have kids of 14 14 year old twins. Like, we're we're doing that now. Right? Like, you give them opportunities to to take leadership, right, to see how they're gonna step up, to see what do they what decisions do they make, and then they that gains experience and they learn from that, and it's all just a compounding effect. Kinda went off a little little tangent here. But yeah.

That was good.

So there I mean, I, innately believe that there are few, you know, standard kind of trades you see in leaders, but 90% of leadership is learned.

I think a lot of people would be happy to hear that, surprised to hear that. Because so many times, you know, you see in children, you see those kids who step out of the comfort zone. They're the loud ones. They're the strong ones. Oh, you know, there's a future leader right there. But, but that's that is probably a strong misconception. And I think a lot of people, maybe they have that in their heart and they wanna do that, but they think, oh, you know, I'm that's not that's not me. I could never step out in that way.

But I would agree. I think I think leadership takes a lot. You have to be very, very introspective. You have to be very focused on on your flaws and and be open to hearing other people's opinions sometimes that are hard to take on when you're giving ideas a lot. Right? To take it on and and to to hear constructive criticism is the word I'm looking for for yourself. I heard a great quote, and I'm curious what you think about this. I just sent this out to a couple friends yesterday. It says, the degree to which a person can grow is directly proportional to the amount of truth they can accept about themselves without running away.

I love that. I think that's very, very, accurate. You know, I was just thinking as as we're talking about this, like, to be a strong leader, you have to be really vulnerable. Right? Like, you have you have to, you know, be willing to take the criticism, be willing to, you know, take take the the, feedback, the, you know, be challenged. Right? And I think that's why some people shy away from it because it it's not easy. And, you you know, you're gonna mess it up. There's gonna be times when you're wrong. You're gonna mess something, and, you know, that that's difficult.

It's it's what's that old cliche? Like, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. Like, there's a 100 of them out there. Right? But that's really what it comes down to is just, you know, being open to being really raw and transparent and vulnerable and putting those that you're you're trying to lead ahead of you. I'm I really believe that if you do that, then the results follow. And I've seen it through my career. It's been pretty rewarding. You know?

And you mentioned you're a parent, you know, twin, 14 year olds. It's it is the same thing. You know, we're parents to and mentors to those in our company or parents to, our own family. And if that doesn't make you stronger, parenting teenagers, I don't know what else does. And I think it goes with anything. I'd heard someone say the other day, yeah, parenting is really hard when you're doing it right. Leadership is hard when you're doing it right. Obviously, we can we can take time and invest in ourselves, but but that's the honest truth of it.

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, we've we've all seen like, I I can think of examples. I just saw one over the holidays, right, where the parenting not done right because it it's very easy to become complacent. And, like, parenting right, leadership right, like, any of that is it's constant instantaneous correction or direction. Right? So, you know, we've talked about this a little bit. I spent 8 years in the marine corps. That is what built the foundation for a lot of my leadership, and that that was one of the things that we we discussed always.

It's constant instantaneous correction. And when you do that, then it raises everyone to a level to where you're gonna do the right things. The the expectation is set. You know, my children know that there's a level of expectation and that if they don't meet that, there's gonna be correction. That is more difficult, more time consuming, more pick something. Right? Any aspect of it, it takes more to do that than to not. So I think, you know, you can see the results. But, yeah, it's it's more of a challenge to be a leader.

Well, I do think that children and I think that anyone that you are mentoring, anyone that you're leading, they do want those boundaries. They do want those boundaries. They do want those guardrails. They do wanna know, okay. It's an if then situation. If I do this, what's what's the result gonna be? Where's the guardrail? What's gonna keep me on track? So just to say you're a laissez faire, hands off leader, hands off parent, I mean, that's to each their own, but I I feel like people really do want that guidance to know, okay. Where do I stand with this person? You you can't you can't achieve greatness when you don't know what the steps are, when you don't know, how to how to fall in line. I'm sure the military I'm glad I'm glad you brought that up because, that was gonna be my next question.

I'm sure that really instilled that level of value in you.

It does. You know? I mean, leadership, is is at the core of serving in any any branch of the military. I happen to, you know, have the honor and privilege to be a marine, which is the best branch for anyone out there wondering, but it it's present in all all of it. Right? So yeah. I mean, it it that's really where the foundation listen. You go in to to military services, you know, really a teenager. I think I was 19.

Yeah.

You know, and and just kinda get transformed, and that builds kind of a foundation to move forward with. So everything is an experience and every experience builds and molds who you are as a person for the better or the worse. So if you're out there, you know, if you believe this, if we're talking about this and leadership has learned 90% learned behaviors and traits, and just know that every every decision that you make, every challenge that you face, every every, you know, obstacle is also an opportunity, and it's going to define and reshape and build how you handle that the next time or how you approach something differently maybe next time. So, the more opportunity you get, the more experience you have, the stronger leader you're gonna become.

Who are some of the leaders that you follow? You know, that really obviously, the military and our experiences and our upbringing. You know, are there are are we allowed to say, You wanna go there?

I mean, yeah, we can go there. So some of the leaders that I follow, you know, Carl White, we've we've talked about Carl a a lot of times, you know, probably one of the strongest leaders in our industry. And when you look at Carl, you know what I what I love about, not just what he says and what he brings to the table, but he's a guy that practice what he preaches. You know what I mean? Like, if if he's going to tell you, hey. You should do a, b, c, he's doing a, b, c. And that's why he's telling you to do it that way or or suggestion that you do it that way. So, you know, that's a a really strong indication to me of leadership is if, like, the the do as I say, not as I do leaders, that is not my style. I don't think that that gets you a a long ways.

Right? So Carl White's definitely one of them, just because of whatever he's preaching, he's practicing.

Yeah.

And and that's really strong.

Yeah. So Well well well who

are some of yours?

Well, gosh. There are so many. I mean, I follow a lot of, I guess, more preachers and religious, You know, that that's kinda like that's kinda my thing. That's where that's what fills my cup. You know? I love Priscilla Shire and don't laugh, but I love Candace Cameron Bure. I love her. I love everything she brings to the table. You're someone that's really, really well rounded.

But I wanna I wanna back up on on something you just said because I see a lot of people, you know, on Instagram, on Facebook, in this world where everything is so instantaneous now, where you see a lot of coaches. I see coaching pro programs pop up all over the place, whether it's public speaking coaches or sales coaches or or whoever it may be. But then sometimes, not all the time, but if you do a little digging, they are great salespeople, but they act haven't been in the trenches. Do you think that it's okay to be a great salesperson and be able to lead people without being in the trenches, or is it is it a must to have been in the shoes of the people that you are trying to to direct and lead?

Well, I think that really is an individual choice. You know what I mean? For me, you know, the the old saying is those that can't do teach. Right? So I do think that there is some aspect of of being able to coach and being able to lead, that will bring value and, help people, you know, level up their game in whatever aspect of it is that doesn't necessarily mean that they did it or they were in the trenches. Right? I mean, if we look at let's look at professional sports. Right? You look at hitting coaches or, you know, quarterback coaches. Right? Like, I don't know who Tom Brady's quarterback coach was, but he had one, and he wasn't a multi winning Super Bowl quarterback, the GOAT of quarterbacks. Right? He knew the fundamental and have have the accountability each time. So I don't think that it's a one for one transfer.

I think that you absolutely can can coach and, you know, lead and help develop people without having been in the trenches, but there has to be results. Right? There are some of those coaches out there. There are a lot of fluff and not results. That's we we could say that about anything. Right? There's there's a lot of overpromise never delivers, Dave Holland would say, in our industry. That comes with companies that you talk to, that comes with coaching. So, you know, what what I always say, this is this is a good rule of thumb for whatever you're trying if you're ever trying to make a decision, where should I where should I work? Where should I coach with? Should, you know, should I do this? Should I do that? Talk to past people. Right? Talk to people that are in that coaching platform now and see what their results have been.

Talk to people that are at that company now. Look at have have a clear vision and and goal of where you want to take your business. Right? Where is it now, and where do you wanna take it? And look in what in whatever you're looking to implement and say, are there people that are doing what I'm looking to implement that have a business at the level that I'm trying to go? Because if someone else has done it using those methods or, you know, pairing with whoever, partnering with whoever, then the path forward for you to do it is much easier. They're you know, if if you look at a let's use a company, for example. If you look at a company and, you know, you're at $20,000,000 of production and you wanna go to 60, and they don't have any $60,000,000 producers of that company right now Mhmm. Well, can you get there? Can you, you know, push through and and figure it out and find make the way? Probably. Is it gonna be a hell of a lot harder than if you align with a company that has 10 stories where they've taken someone from 20 to 60,000,000? Yeah. It's gonna be a lot harder because it's kind of a wash, rinse, repeat.

Right? So I would challenge anyone out there, like, anytime you're looking at a coaching, making a company switch, you know, anything, talk to past clients. This is why we lean into reviews as we buy products. Right? It's it's sometimes it's funny to me that, you know, we will spend hours looking at Amazon reviews before we buy a $10 whatever. Mhmm. But then we're gonna invest 1,000 of dollars in coaching without having conversations with people that are actually in the coaching platform. It's kinda crazy.

It is kinda crazy. And, I mean, I think that applies to a lot of different things. You know? When when we want that instant gratification, we want to check the box and say, I did it. I'm doing it. So that means I'm gonna get the results. Doesn't always work like that. But, yeah, I will scour Amazon reviews and and look for, you know, the the the star, the number of reviews. But you're right.

When it comes to something that is bigger picture, more important, are we putting in that due diligence? That's a great question to ask yourself, folks who are listening. You know, gosh, so much to unpack there. Yeah. I wanna go back to because I love that you brought up the fact that even Tom Brady, best quarterback of all time. I'm an Eagles girl, but I'll say it. Best quarterback of all time. Do. We all we all know.

We can't argue.

We know. Yeah. Yeah. But even he had to have a coach. I I think that is that's kind of an moment. Yeah. That that was that was a great analogy there. Let's focus a little bit and and switch gears just a little bit about, you know, your past and and things that have brought you to the position that you're in now.

You you've had a long career in mortgage. You mentioned military, family. What would you say is is the biggest driver in your life right now, you know, that is propelling you to, number 1, to have made this change and to have been part of the collaboration to start this awesome establishment and new company. And then going forward, you know, what what propels you? What pushes you?

Yeah. You know, I I would say, you know, that's what's your why. Right? And that's a great question for everyone out there. If you don't know what your why is, then that's something you should probably spend a little bit of time, thinking about and and kinda developing. So, you know, this this, of course, changes over the course of time. Right? So it's not a stagnant answer. You know, right now, my why is kinda 2 pieces. Number 1, it's it's my family, and it's, you know, about providing a legacy for them.

You know, my hope is that one day, my my kids enter this business and can learn the ropes and come up through the through the ranks and, you know, maybe ultimately be involved in in running it and managing it. And, you know, it's funny. I was are you watching land man? I watched land man last night, the the newest episode. You know, I watched land man.

Right. That would work.

Yeah. It's a good show. So the the episode that I was watching last night, I'm I'm trying to catch up a little bit, but, you know, this guy owns an oil company, and he had a heart attack, and he's in bed. And Jerry Jones is in their bedside in the hospital talking to this guy, talking about all the legacy that he's built. But the thing that he's most proud of is he brought his kids into the business with him and then he get to work he got to work with his family every day, day in and day out. So, you know, a lot of people when you when you come to the end of your road, you know, maybe your coworkers are there, your family's there, but he got to blend both of them together into 1. And, like, that's really cool. Like, I I my why is you know, I could see that as a vision.

And and this partnership enables that more so than the opportunities I had previously. Right? So family is a piece of it. You know, maybe the kids come in the business. That's gonna be up to them, but I would love that. It's also the, you know, the providing for them and the the work life balance, having the time freedom to be present with them. So that's that's one aspect of it. The other aspect of it is I mean, Dave, Tom, and I talk about this all the time. There's a severe lack of leadership in our industry and, you know, people that have just a heart and a desire to help loan officers grow and to really build a company built for loan officers to thrive.

I mean, when you look at the landscape of mortgage companies out there, I'm biased, but we're really trying to build something that's different than the status quo that's out there, that has an extreme amount of leadership and ownership and very hands on and very culture forward and just a a place where loan officers that want to just grow their business can come and thrive. And that's something I'm very passionate about and that fuels us every day. Like, every day, we're looking at what can we do to get better? What do we need to do to make this the best damn mortgage company that's ever existed? And I would I would make a bold statement that says the other mortgage company owners out there, they don't have that same vision and thought currently. It's not a knock on them. It's just a it it's a little bit more status quo. They don't have the drive to build it, to to develop it, to they don't attack it every day like we do, with just a relentless pursuit of that single vision and goal, which is to build the best damn mortgage company that's ever existed.

And and why do you think that is that there is a lack of leadership in the mortgage space? You know, there's we had just said, you know, there's tons of coaches out there. There's sales coaches. There's public speaking coaches. Why is it in this little niche that we live in called the mortgage industry? Why is there a lack of leadership when there are more resources, I would venture to say, than ever before in history? More connection, more connectivity, more tech. So what what are what are the I

think I think some of those resources, you know, take away from the leadership. You know, it it creates distance. You know, sometimes the tech, is is counterintuitive to the actual interpersonal connections and the leadership that you develop through there. Right? Like, some of it's bureaucracy. Some of it is is risk. Some of it is some of it's laziness. Right? You know, some of it is, you know, you you like, the I think the problem that a lot of mortgage companies face, and it's gonna be a challenge that we're gonna face that we're gonna have to tackle, right, is it's it's not easy. Leadership's never easy, but it's not as challenging on a smaller scale.

So the challenge becomes as you scale, to size, how do you keep that level of leadership? Because now you have to start bringing other people in. Right? Like, if you're a single owner, and this is something that I think, you know, makes Dave, Tom, and I a little bit different is because we're so we're so just unified in our vision, in our goal, in the way that we approach things, in our leadership levels and just in so many facets of it. But in a lot of places, you look and say, you know, okay. It's a single owner entity, and now you wanna scale. Well, now maybe you have to bring in some mid tier managers who aren't as strong of a leader, don't have the same passion or the heart. Right? Now now you have an employee who maybe isn't on the same level. Right? So I think that's one of the unique perspectives with us is coming together. Now you have 3 owners that give us more capacity to scale.

But at some point, we're we're gonna hit the same challenge. Right? Like, I think that's where you you have to make tough decisions and you have to set the standard really high in who you entrust with the the keys to the kingdom, so to speak. And, you know, as we go through hiring and adding leadership positions and, like, it's an exhaustive extensive vetting process, and, like, the bar is really high to to join this club, right, in in that leadership because we know that we're we're turning over some level of that. And we we expect we expect the results that only come with exceptional people.

Get them on the bus.

Did that answer your question? Did I did I get a little off tangent there?

You didn't. No. This is this is what I want. I want this real conversation because, you know, a lot of companies say, oh, well, you know, we don't just hire anyone. And, again, this doesn't mean just mortgage companies. That's that's everyone across the board in a leadership position. Mhmm. But when push comes to shove, all of those things that I think you mentioned before, time, maybe a little bit of complacency, maybe maybe just I don't wanna say greed or, you know, good things and bad things can get in the way, but to be uber focused on what your mission and goal is.

And I do think that there is a very unique dynamic going on here because there are 3 of you in the leadership position, 3 of you at the helm. You don't see that in many companies. So, you know, sometimes you you have

Let's be real. You you you need someone to call you on your crap sometimes.

Thank you.

Right? And and and when you're if you're the the end all be all, like, that doesn't normally exist. Right? So we keep each other in check and accountable. Right? There's times where I'll be totally in we just had a situation. I was totally wrong about something. Right? And and Tom and Dave kept me in check on it. Yeah. Like, if I would have been on my own, then that would have been a massive mistake that got made and implemented that we avoided because of the 3 of us as a sounding board together. I I do think that that's a really you know, as you look around, I'm just thinking off the top of my head, you know, the mortgage companies that are out there that I know, I can't think of one that's got a similar situation, similar setup with 3 dynamic strong leaders that are working collectively and collaboratively at the top.

I I think it it makes a difference and kinda sets us apart.

Well, I mean, if you look at, historically, you look at how this country was founded too, not to put HMA Mortgage on the same level as, you know, the constitution or the declaration of independence or the US government, but there's a reason that our our great country works. It's because of those checks and balances. And, and and I would agree with that. You know, making sure that you surround yourself with incredible people who are going to remind you of your goals, remind you of the reason that you're here to begin with, and call you out when you make a bad

Yeah.

Decision. It happens. We're human. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That accountability is so is so important, and that's where the vulnerability comes back in.

You know? Mhmm. Well, wrapping up, you know, normally, I like to ask a ridiculous question, like, Robert, what's your go to karaoke song?

Yeah.

But I but I think I I've heard that before. You can just tell them real quick. Come on.

I mean, it it's it's either, Folsom Prison or sweet child of mine.

Mhmm.

Depending on the mood. Right? It depends on where you're at.

I think everyone listening that you absolutely yes. This leadership discussion has been wonderful, but you tell a lot about a person by the karaoke song they sing. So just just tuck that away. It is a great piece of leadership advice. Have your go to karaoke song. Yeah. But in all seriousness, what's what's one piece of advice looking back that you wish you had heard earlier in your career, Robert? Is there anything that stands out that maybe maybe you've heard it recently or maybe you heard it 5 years ago that that I you know, I I don't believe in, coincidences. I think we hear things when we need to hear them in life.

But what's something that maybe has stuck with you that you wish you would have heard? Your younger Robert self would have heard.

Yeah. It's one of my favorite sayings. Don't seek advice oh, no. Wait. Don't take criticism from someone you wouldn't seek advice. And I think all too often, we we do that. Right? We let people we let people in our space, in our head with whatever negativity, that really have no business, like, sowing into us. So just be really careful of of who you take criticism from.

Everybody has something to say about everything. Right?

They do.

And, usually, the the stronger path that you're on, the more clear and concise that you are, the the more drive that you have, the more attacks that you're gonna have come at you. Right?

Mhmm.

So just be really, really, you know, cognizant and careful of who you who you let in, who you take criticism from, and who you seek advice from. I think that's probably the biggest one.

I tell that.

I look back and and, you know, people that gave me advice or kept me from going for things or trying things that I should have never listened to.

That's that's great advice. That's something that, I tell my kids all the time, and I I hope it's sinking in. But if that's the first time anyone's heard that, I I really feel like that. Maybe they needed a reminder to hear that. Mhmm. That that really is a solid piece of advice. I love that. Well, thank you, my friend.

We're wrapping up, our time here today. Lots of great nuggets. And as always much. Friends, make sure you like and subscribe our podcast here. We've got lots lots of great ideas coming at you in this new year. And, and thanks for taking some time out and spending your time with us. Like subscribe. See you next time.

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